Where Have All The Gunsmiths Gone? - GMP
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 21 ก.ย. 2024
- Host Brent T. Wheat recently enlisted Roy Huntington's help with a shotgun restoration project, which inspired a conversation about what happened to the "old-school" gunsmith and what we should do to fix the problem.
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Gentlemen, very good content. I do not consider myself a Gunsmith, but was trained and certified as Armorer for all small arms for the U S Navy from 82-92, and then every firearm used by a 50 person city Police Dept. till I retired 6 years ago. At times I would work part time at different guns shops as long as I had liability insurance covered by them”in written policy “. I have know a couple of friends in the business suffer greatly, due to lawsuits, to work without it. I started the first CCW school in the state of Ohio and created course, under oversight of the State Attorney’s Office. My insurance was purchased through the NRA and privately obtained underwriting. About 2 years later the world changed when another startup school in Ohio had an on range incident and a student was shot by another student. Insurance costs raised to the point that it could not be maintained. I sold out the school and lesson plan to a large firearms firm based in Ohio. I no longer train or work on anyone else’s guns, due to liability issues, insurance. Sorry for the long comment, had to get my point out. Thank you both for what you do.
All good points sir. And it’s why I don’t do it commercially. Although, if I hung out the shingle I’m pretty sure I’d get swamped by people who are looking for help. It’s too bad they’ve made it all so complicated! Roy
I enjoyed the podcast, but I must admit I was a little disappointed. I thought it was going to be more about how to find a good gunsmith! Because my experience has been you can find guys that say they're Master gunsmiths and supposedly have this or that certificate but still do lousy jobs. And several of the ones I've encountered are just not very pleasant people, but that might be due to what Roy was talking about. In any event, they certainly don't help "grow the sport," the same as people you encounter that own or work in gun stores that regard you with suspicion and are anything but welcoming.
I’d tell everyone about it if I found a good general gunsmith! And you’re right, so many are just bad natured. Roy
As a "general gunsmith" that started last century I can tell you that this is BY FAR THE BEST REPRESENTATION of the life/business. You guys got it RIGHT!!!
What you have to do is buy high, sell low, and make it up in volume.
Thanks Jeff. I figured you’d understand! Roy
So true! I would have no problem paying Roy. His skills are priceless.
You’d be one then Randy! But thanks for your kind words sir. Roy
Nice chat gentleman. It's all true. I've experienced every bit of it. The good ones, the bad ones, the slow ones. Paid too much for bad work, gave extra for good. I've done my own when I could.
I was a swimming pool technician for many years of my life. I was the only commercial heater technician in my area and a factory trained automation technician for the four top manufacturers.
People would often ask “if you came over this Saturday and did this off the clock, I could have paid you with a case of beer”
I usually smiled and said, you called me because nobody else could figure it out, right?
Ha! Been there Dave! Roy
I had the honor of mentoring with one of my best friends, excellent gunsmith in Rock Springs, Wyoming. It was all magic when observing him, but he would say come here and do this and this and Shazam, it worked. I also went to trade school as a machinist which helped a great deal, he retired and moved to North Dakota, but he babysat me through a couple projects via telephone from NoDak to Arizona and once I had my feet wet, I expanded my collection and gained skills at every opportunity. I work as Roy does, either on my own stuff or as a favor for a close friend. He struggled because the average tight-pocketed shooter would grouse about the costs, a few of the well to do in the area were wise enough to keep him busy an solvent, they understood the treasure and his value. Good Video Thanks Chet !!!!!
I’ve seen those solo gunsmiths die long slow business deaths just because people wouldn’t support them. Then when they were gone, the same crowd whined and complained! Roy
MAN, you are DEAD-ON with that comment.
I'm luckily not in that condition but that's EXACLY WHAT HAPPENS.
Seen people do it to honest mechanics etc.
I apprenticed under an old guy so maybe that's why I still do MOST all of it.
Jeez, guys, I could go on forever about this subject! I graduated from Lassen in the late eighties and went to work at the largest local gun shop for $3.50/hr. I opened my own business up to the public in 1994 and I also did work for several other local shops. I kept that business open until the early two thousands. Quite simply.I had a very well equipped shop with two milling machines, one vertical and a horizontal. Three lathes, multiple drill presses, arbor presses, bench grinders, buffer's, belt sanders, et cetera. I had a retail area to greet the public and take in and turn out the firearms. I also had a separate area for refinishing with a complete set up for hot caustic bluing and parkerizing. With the skills and knowledge that I had, quite simply, I could make a much better living working in the construction trades that I grew up in. Being located here by Cape Canaveral, I ended up doing a lot of government work for the Air Force and NASA where there was good pay and demand for a skilled tradesman who could think outside of the box to build the unusual stuff that the space center needed. I still regularly do smithing work strictly for myself. As some of the other commenters have touched on, the liability insurance, local licensing requirements, federal F. F. L headache, zoning, and such, just don't really make it cost-effective to be in the business.
Not to mention that the majority of my customers had a fit paying $35 an hour for machine work when the local machine shops were charging $80. A part of me hated closing up the shop and getting out of the gun business, and yet another part of me was truly relieved when I did.
I guess it's kind of like the old saying about a boat - the two happiest days are when you get it, and when you get rid of it, LOL! There is no shortage of work for a good gunsmith, but that's the other problem. The skills, the knowledge, the mindset, the dedication, the business acumen, and the intelligence required to be a good smith just aren't that common of a combination. Most people with the determination, drive, and skills simply find themselves in a better paying job or business.
They were about 40 students in my first gunsmithing class. There were only 3 of us who graduated 3 years later. Being a general gunsmith can be very challenging because every day, something is liable to walk into your door that you have never seen, and you have to understand the mechanical principles that make it work. Also, you have to accept the liability that comes with you putting it back out in the field.
I used to have 70 to 80 guns waiting on my incoming rack at any given time. Like a mechanic, the way to make money is to get the work done fast, (Remember, I told you that Bob Dunlap made us learn to assemble guns in extremely fast time limits), that means its not a leisurely day at the shop. Add to that the customers always want to pick your brain with questions and tell you their hunting stories, which I truly enjoyed, but every minute of it was costing me money. The electric bill doesnt go on hold while we are shooting the breeze about some old gun that someone found at a garage sale or about how there just arent any ducks on the marsh because we haven't had a good cold front yet to push them south. For several years after I closed the doors, people were still hounding me to do their work. I had to move to a secluded location that no one knew about because they were waiting for me when I came home from work. I even had someone spot me on the road and try to follow me to my new place! WhenI retire from the construction business, I am considering hooking up with a local shop to do gunsmithing as a part-time business. I currently have several people pushing me to go back into the business, but I just have too much work in the construction field right now. A part of me sure does miss it!
@@floridagunrat1625 also went to Lassen in the late 80’s . Worked for Bob D for a couple years before moving on. Did gunsmithing for almost ten years before the temptation of better pay got me to leave it behind. But I don’t regret it , I had a great time at gunsmithing school and working in the trade , satisfied something I wanted to learn from the time I was a kid .
You nailed it all Rat, 100 percent. Most ‘smiths do it for the love of the craft not the money, but that’s where the collision of reality and the dream happens. While someone could make more money pounding nails, if it saps their brain out, then it kills you slowly. Part time, for fun and a tad of profit is the way to go these days. Take what you want and say no to the rest. Roy
There is something oddly satisfying. But I think you have to be a real guncrank, like we are, to understand that. Roy
@66rmw Very cool, I'm sure our paths crossed! I was so saddened to hear of Bob Dunlaps passing. He was like a second father to me. I always tried to meet up with him at the SHOT show when he was there with the AGI folks. The last time that I saw him, we talked about how things were going and then we said goodbye. I walked away but then turned around and went back to him and thanked him for everything that he did for me. There was a lady there who said, "Hey, this is a special moment, I'd like to get a picture!" The next SHOT show, I missed him as he left early, and that really hit me hard as I had just lost my dad at Christmas. I wonder what ever happened to that picture? Yes, we are a small group of people who were able to experience this trade, and I agree that I would never trade that for anything. As I said, it is still a calling for me, and I hope to return to it.
Thanks, Rat
@fmgpubs "oddly satisfying", 100 percent!!! I have worked on all sorts of things. I've worked in engineering and construction on everything from simple remodels and additions to the portable water system that supplies almost a half million people to all kinds of defense and space exploration related projects. I've always found satisfaction in completing a job! Right now, in my spare time, I have several rifle projects going on. Yup, it's in your blood! That's one of the reasons that I like your videos. I get to see someone else's projects. I understand the work that it took to get there and the pleasure when it's done!!!
Thanks, Rat
I worked in the wholesale grocery business for many years. Our saying went something like, "we'll make up in volume what we lose on margin," as we go out of business. I have built ARs but am smart enough to realize I'm putting parts together. Cheers, Brent and Roy!
Hey Lou, at least you’re puttering around. Your book went out yesterday! Roy
@@fmgpubs puttering is my specialty. Thank you Roy!
I think that people generally don't take into account the important detail that the repair person has knowledge, hopefully. I have seen this over many years and it doesn't
matter what trade it is, electrician , plumber, good auto mechanic or gunsmith. Also the customer doesn't take into account special tools which the craftsman uses
for the job and they know how to use the tools. These skills are learned through years of doing it and knowing the pitfalls. Details the customer does not take into account.
Good video ,thanks.
You’re right all around Gary. I have tens of thousands invested in shop equipment, tooling, special tools, accessory sets of springs, screws, etc. and many, many spare parts of all sorts I’ve collected over the years. But mostly I have the knowledge about how to use it all! Or at least most of it … Roy
AND the $$$ and time they LOST learning it.
Thank you for covering this subject. Take care!
You bet Cliff. Thanks for tuning in! Roy
Thank you sirs!
You bet Stephen. Roy
Thats like Mr. Novak who works with C-n-Arsenal on U-Tube, his channel is Anvil (as in a primer's anvil).... he does everything from restoring horror-show Mausers, true rust bluing, to getting Lewis guns up and running. His shop is in the Charleston area.....
Oh, he’s a hoot. I’ve watched some of his. That’s the sort of guy we’re talking about. Roy
I went through a gunsmithing school , then earned my living as a gunsmith for about 10 years. The problem is anyone who has the skills to be a good gunsmith can earn more doing something else . It’s a labor of love
Same here. Got my degree from Trinidad in 78. Moved back here to Michigan found good work as a Machinist/ Applied engineer. At better money and fewer headaches. So, I got on board that train. As for gunsmithing, I got the privilege of really getting good at gunsmithing, and I worked for only one customer, me.
Labor of love is exactly right. There’s such a great feeling to complete a complicated job and look at it all finished on your bench. Roy
I've been thinking about gunsmithing lately. I fixed my ruger standard auto. I was the one who locked it up after deep cleaning it, but I also fixed it. You are right to say stop thinking about it and just start doing it! Also fixed my friends mossberg Lever Gun. The safety wasn't working. Fixed it along with a deep cleaning. He was happy to have a safe firearm again.
Unless it’s really complicated, many “broken” guns just need a bit of TLC. Roy
Yep. Two of mine retired and what’s left in Albuquerque isn’t that great
Somehow this video ended up at the top of my list. Very nice explanations. If a gunsmith did any work for me and charged $20-30 for it, I would be thinking "Great Deal!"
Thanks for joing us for the vid Jimp. And that’d be a pretty darn good deal for sure! Roy
Folks often don't understand the learning process and background that goes into producing quality work. It's not the current time that matters, it's the years of blood, sweat, and tears that brings a pro to a certain level. Those years include horrific mistakes; terrible embarrassment, and expensive DIY education. I'm still becoming better at my trade - primarily, from not hitting the mark every time, and learning from that. I learned a long time ago, it's far smarter in the long run to pay for that expertise - happily!
You summed it up. I have my share of botched jobs I learned from. It’s one of the main reasons I learned to do precision TIG welding … to fix mistakes! I just had to weld up a dovetail I cut just the other day. The barrel moved in the fixture and I didn’t realize it. Presto, angled dovetail! Roy
There so many old American made guns that young people have never heard of, much less seen, handled or fired that they wouldn't have any idea how to work on one. I grew up with those shotguns and rifles in the 50's when they were popular. Those (about 100 total) are what I have, going as far back as 1903. I've taught my son and will teach my grandson how to maintain them to keep them going.
The younger people are so often missing out on some fun old guns! Roy
Thank you Roy
You bet sir. Roy
I live in Prescott, I have known a few graduates of the local Gun smith program. they are working as machinists. its fairly easy to find someone to pay you to run a machine, its tough to find a gunsmith that wants to take someone and continue to mentor them. Its expensive for someone to get the tools necessary straight out of school to start their own shops.
Indeed. Plus, mentoring takes time and time is what pays the bills. I’ve mentored many young people and any job we do takes five times as long as if I did it alone. That can’t be sustained in a small shop. Roy
Really good information, really got my gears turning.
Glad it helped. Roy
My best friend was my gunsmith and did some fantastic work for me over the past several years. However, the minimum wage pay, less than desirable working conditions, bad management and awful customers lead him to quit and now he's in school to be a nurse. I told him for years that he could go be a machinist for at least twice as much pay with benefits and pto but he wouldn't make the switch.
"Cheap , Fast or Good" ..Pick two of those .😅 I learned my lesson about "cheap" . I recently offered to pay a top local Machinst/Gunsmith $100 PER HOLE to drill through and extract two filler screws on the barrel of a pre-war Winchester rifle to restore it back to factory cindition without ruining a $4k +++ rifle. He did a PERFECT job and it was worth every penny on that particular rifle.
A perfect example of how it pays to get quality work. I’ve got cobalt drill bits for just such emergencies. Roy
You are a wise man James!
Sorry I’m retired and disabled these days and only do work for family and friends.
I understand completely Ken! Roy
Thanks for this video!
My pleasure! Roy
Very cool, I'm looking at making a Mauser carbine into a mannlicher style hunting rifle with double triggers off a k98 action 9.3×62 Mauser. I can't find anything off the rack I like , so figured it will be a learning experience.
There you go. Just take your time, watch the vids, nose around online, etc. Roy
@@fmgpubs Thank you kindly, I appreciate the advice.
Check out the pre-fit barrels from McGowen.
Good advice Jeff. Roy
My local gunsmith who I and my friends used since the 1980s died of Covid 2 years ago. I haven't found a replacement.
It’s hard to … Roy
Regulation killed the occupation
Pretty much true. If it wasn’t so complicated and overly regulated and intolerant of any tiny mistakes in paperwork, I’d have hung out a shingle years ago. Roy
I never cringe when my gunsmith gives me a price. I’m paying for a service that I can’t perform and he’s helping me out. Some people are just ungrateful!
You are a rare bird sir! Roy
I live in rural Arkansas where virtually everybody owns firearms of some kind. I have to drive 70 miles to find a generalist gunsmith. Granted, I own a lot of firearms, but I have have three broken one's sitting around and of no use to me.
I hear that sort of thing all the time! Roy
It's funny how you mentioned a Marlin model 60. I got one for free that wasn't working. I paid a gunsmith $150.00 to fix it. I guess I'm a real gun nut, if I had to do it all over again I would. It's an older model with a 22" barrel and an 18 round magazine. I recently put Williams front and rear sight g hts on it. It's accurate and 100% reliable, it feeds ammo that my 10/22 choked on. Next I will find someone that can reblue it.
Try one of the spray on finished like DuraCoat. You can buy a “kit” and do it yourself. It works great. Roy
The receiver is aluminum so Roy's advice to coat it is a good one. You can blue the receiver.
Same place all the skilled tradesmen went, young boomers aren’t interested in training the next generation if they “feel” an individual isn’t a good “culture fit” for their shop or the industry.
The era of “paying dues” to be allowed to learn is over, if someone wants to move fast and learn fast, they need to be allowed to do so during the learning stages, because butt-in-the seat time only worked when there was a long line of people wanting to apprentice.
Is it possible to use an already established gun retailer as a location to set up shop as a gunsmith (obviously with their blessing) if you didn’t want to obtain an FFL?
Sure, if they want to. Roy
Just remember, to be LEGAL you'll have to do it on-site.
Back in 89 and 90. I tryed to get the 2 local gunsmith to train me. They did everything from mounting scopes to build guns from scratch.
Both told me no and don't go to school for it either. Cheap guns and chain stores are killing the small gun shop gunsmith.
People want pay to have a sportarised military rife done right. When Walmart has 94 a 336 for $150
Both didn't stay working long after less than 10 years.
One closed a younger gunsmith from some where else moved in and took over.
He a good guy. He didn't last he works as a sellsman at another gun shop runs his onnthe week ends.
Good guy does good work. I don't think he knew how to manage his time.
Had him custom work on a revolver. He told me when it would be reedy. It wasn't told me again not read rince and repeat 2 or 3 more times.
When he finally called me to get it. He would not take any payments for tye work saying it shouldn't have happened that way.
I offered to pay the work was done. Nope so I offered to pay for material nope would not take it.
Very nice but that doesn't keep a shop open.
That’s a huge part of the issue right there. But for real gun guys, that custom “something” can be worth the money. Not everyone wants a commodity market stamped out gun. Roy
@@fmgpubs very true I wanted a 2 in 44mag snubbey and was willing to pay for what I wanted.
I am a firm believer in big and fast.
But how many gun owners is there to ever gun guy?
My dad was somewhat in the middle. He wanted a few good 22lr
But was fine with just his fox 12ga and a 1894.
He kept a few boxes of bird shot and bought a box of buckshot ever year but never bought 30-30 until there were 10 or less in the box yes THE BOX.
He didn't really understand why I shot so much but he supported it. I had probably bought and traded more guns by the time I was 15 than he ever owned.
I too know lots of guys even older than me who just have a partial box of whatever cartridge for their rifles. Often don’t even sight it in before hunting. Roy
any gunsmith worth his salt will have a waiting list a mile long. A lot of shooters will bring in that broken gun that was sitting in their safe for a year and want it for this weekend's starting of deer season and do not want to pay the $100 to fix it, but will pay their mechanic $150.00 a hour to get their pickup ready for the hunt.
That's 1000% true. You NAILED IT!
Exactly, Ken. I often get friends call and say, “Oh, I forgot to call you before, but I’m leaving for my hunt day after tomorrow so could you fix my (fill in the blank) today? Ahem .. Roy
Some, and I know two smiths were run out by the "jack booted thugs of the ATF. Wonderful old "cranks", men with a love of guns and gunner , but nor clerks and record keepers. Literally forced out of the trade by "clerical error" you know, Chicken Schiff....
I’ve seen it too many times …. Roy
Face it, Roy... most shooters ( other than shotgunners / pigeon shooters! ) are tight-wads....but every point you make is valid ! Modern guns are built for parts swappers, no real fitting required. Its why I've got Numrich Arms in my phone! 😁
I agree with your point, but If you substitute the words "unreasonable idiots" for "tightwads" that statement would be even more accurate.😂
@@JamesClark-lw6sw Okay, that’s pretty funny … Roy
That's the biggest killer of gunsmiths, just as Roy and Brent said.
Because most people buy comparatively cheap guns these days. 75 years ago a nice k frame would cost a weeks pay or more. A $450 palmetto Dagger isn't worth the 'Smith in comparison.
I can’t disagree with you on that one. Roy
@fmgpubs A big thank you, Roy, for answering so many comments. I found you guys maybe a month ago, and I think you've replied to nearly every one of my comments. That's unheard of.
Well sir, it pays to be nice to the people who support you! I might miss some though. Lord, the comments are getting out of control! Roy
Tried to get my FFL to start a small gunsmith shop….. got turned down by the AFT cause I wanted to run it out of my house.
Yeah, they frown at that these days. Used to be you could. Roy
Dumb, but true.
No Roy. A journeyman plumber gets $162.00 hr here in Boise. Suspenders are optional... No wonder nobody wants to be a gunsmith anymore. The knowledge base they have inside their heads from a lifetime of experience is priceless, yet they can't charge what it is worth in experience. Anybody with a buttcrack can be a plumber as long as they aren't afraid of spiders....
Well said Kriss. I just don’t know where the break in thought is though, with people. I guess when you have to go to the bathroom you’re willing to pay anything! Roy
Machine shops have similar issues with walk-in business like a gizmo that has a busted-off stud the customer wants extracted and replaced. Even better, a broken stud the customer broke off and and fried to drill out (cock-eyed!) then broke off and an e-z out in the crooked hole!
Been there Steve! I do often help people in spots like that, and charge the hell out of it! I learned to TIG weld just for those situations and for my own gun work. Once I learned to TIG aluminum it was amazing how fast that word spread among the local motorcycle community. Roy
Most new ones can only assemble ars and anyone with a specialty can’t survive long enough at competitive prices to stay in business. All the old established guys are retiring.
Indeed …. Roy
Are there any gunsmiths looking for an apprentice in Ohio preferably near Columbus, but will travel
Nice hobby, but it's no way to make a living.
Kinda’ true Pete. You can, but you need to be talented and a good businessman. Most gunsmiths are one or the other! Roy
Roy's right, again. Hate to admit it.😊
Not meaning to sound mean, but gun smithing seems like a part time hobby.
Maybe today, but until the ‘80s or so, there were plenty of full time gunsmiths operating shops or as part of a retail store. I think today’s era of disposable everything helped to shut things down. Plastic guns that are cheap, box store .22 rifles, etc. Roy
@@fmgpubs honestly had i thought about it 40 some years ago, i’d of studied smithing but only got into weapons when i turned 60, but know mine inside out🤘❤️🇺🇸
I hate double speak. I have great respect for Mr. Roy, but he is just as guilty as the next. One sentence he tells future gunsmiths they can wright their own ticket and the next he tells us so many of the older gunsmiths are quitting because no one wants to pay for their work.
completely different advices! So which is it. Neither + Both! GRRRR!!!!
KnifeMaker/Retired after over 47+ Year in the Craft
It’s that old “you have to have the talent AND be a good businessman.” The hitch is they’re either one or the other usually, so they go out of business! But if someone is a go-getter and chases the ball, it can work. Roy