@@crocodilecrox3758 replacing the bearing doesnt solve the issue they had in the slightest. if they pressed the new bearings in too hard they would be at square 1 again
Great information guys. I like the idea of my local shop repairing the bike vs just changing parts if the repair bill is lower. The customer will appreciate it too!
This video does not only help us , mechanics, to understand the concept of preload but also educate the customers to stop wining about about our prices .
First, let me say that these videos you guys are making are fantastic. I've been learning a lot. I see this thread is dead by 3 years, but I still want to throw in something. Once a bearing is run for an extended period ‘dry’, the raceways and balls will overheat quickly, causing galling and deformity. This is the reason they were so loud. That is the chattering and beating sound of micro irregularities. Once the grease was applied the noise went away because the grease (ideally) prevents components from actually contacting each other; as we know, bearings and like components, by design, run on a micro thin film of oil (or grease), not metal to metal contact. So, once the grease is packed in, it takes up enough space to one, relieve the surface-to-surface chatter; and two, allow the excessive tension to be felt (which is the chatter that is simply dampened by the grease) by taking up any ‘slack’ space that was there when the bearing was dry. Next, and most importantly, after the “adjustment” is made, the wheel (or axle) is spun and everything feels great. However, this is only because the components are being tested with no load. Now that the “high preload” is relieved and there is grease packed in, none of the component deformities are forced to make any significant contact. Once load is introduced to the system, all the deformed parts will begin to interact again. These bearings will be slow and will continue to wear prematurely even while properly greased. It is true that they are way better than they were with no lube and high tension. And it’s true that they will still ‘work’, maybe even for a good while. But, compared to new bearings, performance is likely to be poor. One final note; an experiment that partially shows this affect: take a new bearing and clean all the grease out of it. Once dry, give it a spin. It will spin like mad and, you will be able to hear it whir. However, under load it will be slow as the components rub against each other. Now take an old waisted bearing (even one that is nearly seized) and fully clean it all out - spotless. What-do-you-know, it spins - sometimes really well. Put it in the bike as-is and put some weight on it - obviously no good. Again, absolutely a fantastic channel! Thanks for all the great info!
you pay a trained person for the knowledge and skills they have spent their time and money acquiring and the investment in the tools and other equipment required to provide the service you wish performed.. I used to regularly take 5- 15 minutes to repair a walkie talkie but then you have all the other associated costs such as administation staff, training, building rents etc ...so the minimum charge was 1 hours labour ....its just the cost of providing an overall service ....those costs have to be covered by someone and at the end of the day its the customer that requires the service that has to pay of it.
Very good summary. I'm currently finishing my Master's at a very expensive and hard to get into uni. As such, I obviously expect my future employer to respect the years and the money I invested to be able to work for them in the first place when considering my pay. It's the same thing, imo.
Don't forget implicit costs to the company also. They shop may have more profitable jobs to do and its not really worth their time at a rate lower than 1 hour.
I want to chime in on the question Seth asked " how much should a bike shop charge" As I have gotten back into MTB riding after 20 years I can easily say this 10 minutes of labor is worth an easy hour of labor or even a touch more. Like they said 20 years of experience teaches you where to hit the hammer not how to hit the hammer. I can only pray I find this type of experience in my LBS to assist in keeping my bike running smooth and safe as I learn.. I am handy person but have so much to learn on bike repair !! I haven't worked on bikes since 1996 through 2001. So much has changed!!! I truly loved my Gary Fisher Aquila back in the day but my new Cannondale Habit 4 is so much more advanced!! Park tool guys and Seth you all rock!!!
This video is why I love my lefty front hub. No adjusting caps or adjustment at all. Just press new bearings in and put rotor back on front wheel and reinstall the wheel. Perfect adjustment and if you ever notice any side to side play just pop out the bad bearing and replace with new bearing simple as that.
@@shawnpitman876 Why did you call someone a *dolt* for repeating what is a standard operating policy set by management and owners of a shop he works for that is standard across an entire industry? I don't know about you, but when I clock into my job for the day I don't get to just decide to break rules set by my bosses because I feel like it.
This is the perfect example in order to understand why hubs like *_Chris King_* and *_Onyx_* with a solid axle from dropout to dropout and bearing preload adjustability, are far superior than the ones without, in every aspect and thus appreciate their high price from a new perspective!
If a person isn't willing to invest their time to learn and their money on tools, then they should pay their bike mechanic the posted minimum rate, or whatever the shop has invoiced. How much is your ride time worth?
I work at the bike shop on sea island and we use all park tools, and the question of how much we would charge, would be either $30 for a tune up or maybe less because it doesn't take too long
Anyone else cringed when Calvin got all touchy feely around the rotor after re-greasing the bearing? I myself am still a dumbass and i wouldn't trust myself that much and remove the rotor beforehand. Service by people who don't have to do that naturally costs more. Love the video.
My LBS has a great Mechanic, and does great work. Unfortunately the LBS has terrible manager, and has been a little snotty. It has made me come to the conclusion I just need to work on my own bikes for now on.
Doesn't the seal get damaged when you pop it out? Meaning the grease will go dry faster? And then back to the bike shop? Hence it's easier in the long run just to replace (from a bike shop perspective). The labour is the costly part for the customer - not two bearings.
The seals are not typically damaged. If this was at a shop, I would hope the customer was not right there. So, I would then call the customer and tell them whats going on and what they have for options and what each one of those options would cost. Since this was not a bike shop fix and we did not have bearings on hand, we did what we could to make the hubs better. Worked out great and we had a very happy customer in the end. Plus we and many people around the world had the opportunity to learn as well.
I've come across several hubs with Novatec/Joytec as OEM (branded under several names) having this issue. Axle flanges are a touch too wide and should have been machined a couple more tenths to relieve the inner races. On road hubs they may just bind up as soon as you tighten the QR and caps compress. Only fix would be a 0.1mm shim for outer race.
Once the bearing popped out, why not clean it totally with brake clean or rubber safe solvent, then grease and install? I think most of the smoothness came from the grease finally working it's way to where it needed to be. Once you reassemble, the preload will eventually go back to what it was once the thru axle is tight and it gets ridden. Lastly, why not just put enduro angular contact bearings in there that can handle preload and side loads much better.
The fresh grease helped quite a bit. But there was still excessive side load causing the bearing to be rough. Once the bearing was reinstalled the ID of the bearing was touching the step on the axle. So when the thru axle is tightened it will not move the bearing at all. We did test this with the fork bottoms that we had on hand. they allow a person to feel how the bearings feel once the wheel is installed. Since most of the load is radial and that there is no tweakable preload I would not put angular contact bearings in this hub.
I refer to this process as the "technical tap", if you know what you're doing it should work but if you don't then you could cost yourself a lot of money
depends on your relationship with your mechanic, if you are friends and ride together he may only charge you parts and materials and teach you how to do it like these guys but if you go to some big cold bike shop where they see you for the first time you're getting charged just for showing up. Not saying you should purposely befriend a mechanic and exploit them, I always offer to pay at least a couple bucks even when they would let me go free just to keep the shop going, just saying mechanic's perspective on whether or not he should charge for knowledge changes depending who he is giving that knowledge to
i think mechanics should charge flat fees based on the service required. should there be issues that go well beyond the norm and take a lot of extra resources and time, the charge could increase i set my hourly goal at about $75 per but as you say, that can be dropped to 10/15 minutes due to experience. Also, my Park Tool collection was not cheap !
Since Seth mention how much a bike shop should charge for it. My bike shop charged me $20 to tighten my bottom bracket without removing it. I just want to know if that was more then it should be. Only because I had tighten the bottom bracket before on my own, I only asked the guy at the shop because I was there for other repairs. Also its a BMX with a unsealed bottom bracket and it took me half a minute to tighten it on my own.
To me it doesn’t matter how long I’ve been doing it, if it takes me ten minutes then I am charging them that price because that way they are coming back and if they dont then more fool them.
towards that question ... i think thats what gives a bikeshop with competent and wise bike mechanics the edge over a bikeshop with not as experianced mechanics ... a qoute on qoute bad bike shop would have kept the bike for 3 days, odered new bearings and made an elephant from a fly ... the experienced bikeshop litterly wacks it with a hammer and makes it just as just like its ment to be. only problem is the customer probalby dosent understand the worth and time thats kinda liked with that level of experiance but its the same for all jobs ... Computer Engineers being where im from ... face the same problem. Customers dont understand where things fail and they just see it working or not working and "it worked last time so quick why not this time?!" .... its the curse of the speciallist
I cant speak for everyone. But for me: Its frusterating to see unaccessable videos in my feed. I'm not sure what to do with the information that a video is about to come out on a channel that I already subed . Its not a broadcast that I have to tune in for or I'll miss it. Once its posted, its permanently availabe on demand. I don't have to remember go look for it, its in my feed (the same place the premiere "fake video" placeholder shows up). If I'm subed I'll see both the premiere and the real video; if I'm not, I'll see the video if I search for it or the channel after it posts, and I won't see the premiere at all. Its an old-media tactic too, which is why i think you are calling it "professional". Personally, the hint of old-media this carries, turns me off because I like youtube for not being cable. PS @Parktool: I really do like the channel and this video. And I do genuinely want to see you guys succeed. I just don't want my feed cluttered.
First of all, thanks for all your great educational content. There is nothing like it on the web! But I don't think the hammer hack is good for the bearings. 1. Seems like the hub manufacturer should have done a better job of designing their hub to achieve correct preload. Maybe this was a cheapie hub with no provision for adjusting preload, like threads and nuts, or maybe it's just a manufacturing tolerance issue. It just seems like a mfg is asking for trouble by not providing this adjustment. Hammering seems awful primitive. I know this is a hack. 2. I think hammering may cause denting of the races by the balls. What you did with the hammer is like press-fitting a new bearing by applying the force the wrong race (the one without the interference fit, whether inner or outer) which is not advised by bearing manufacturers because it stresses the cups and balls. During normal operation, any sudden shocks from the road are cushioned by the tires and suspension, and there is little thrust force on the bearings, unlike the hammer blows.
A bike mechanic would be a great job if there were no customers and no boss. Wait, that's my garage. Life's too short to tolerate nutters. Don't pressure wash your bike, especially bearings.
you say that you pay for the experience.... but surely you were paid to get the experience. if i pay for the experience you have, then surely the guys you charged the same amount 10 years ago but it took 2 or 3 times as long should get a refund.
Thats kinda like saying a person should get back pay for completing a repair done 10 years ago for what a person earns today..... Thus why most repair shops charge a set rate for a repair. A more experienced mechanic can complete it faster but the customer pays the same. Either way, No one is refunding you your money :)
![เปิดใจ "อาจารย์เบียร์ คนตื่นธรรม" อดีตเคยสุดทุกทาง ถ้าใช้หนี้หมดไปบวชแน่ l [Nickynachat]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/IxeE0xVhy08/mqdefault.jpg)
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Hitting wheel with hammer: $0.10. Knowing where to hit wheel with hammer: $75.00.
$0.10 in depreciation because of hammer mileage, lol
How about just replacing the bearing rings?
@@crocodilecrox3758 replacing the bearing doesnt solve the issue they had in the slightest. if they pressed the new bearings in too hard they would be at square 1 again
Great information guys. I like the idea of my local shop repairing the bike vs just changing parts if the repair bill is lower. The customer will appreciate it too!
Oldie but goodie! Super informational.
This exact thing happened on my rocky mountain, thanks to you guys, you saved me 20 bucks and cursing to find the right bearing! 👏👏
No doubt one of the most interesting videos you guys have ever uploaded. I did not see that one coming.
This video does not only help us , mechanics, to understand the concept of preload but also educate the customers to stop wining about about our prices .
Lol. No.
First, let me say that these videos you guys are making are fantastic. I've been learning a lot.
I see this thread is dead by 3 years, but I still want to throw in something. Once a bearing is run for an extended period ‘dry’, the raceways and balls will overheat quickly, causing galling and deformity. This is the reason they were so loud. That is the chattering and beating sound of micro irregularities.
Once the grease was applied the noise went away because the grease (ideally) prevents components from actually contacting each other; as we know, bearings and like components, by design, run on a micro thin film of oil (or grease), not metal to metal contact. So, once the grease is packed in, it takes up enough space to one, relieve the surface-to-surface chatter; and two, allow the excessive tension to be felt (which is the chatter that is simply dampened by the grease) by taking up any ‘slack’ space that was there when the bearing was dry.
Next, and most importantly, after the “adjustment” is made, the wheel (or axle) is spun and everything feels great. However, this is only because the components are being tested with no load. Now that the “high preload” is relieved and there is grease packed in, none of the component deformities are forced to make any significant contact. Once load is introduced to the system, all the deformed parts will begin to interact again. These bearings will be slow and will continue to wear prematurely even while properly greased.
It is true that they are way better than they were with no lube and high tension. And it’s true that they will still ‘work’, maybe even for a good while. But, compared to new bearings, performance is likely to be poor.
One final note; an experiment that partially shows this affect: take a new bearing and clean all the grease out of it. Once dry, give it a spin. It will spin like mad and, you will be able to hear it whir. However, under load it will be slow as the components rub against each other. Now take an old waisted bearing (even one that is nearly seized) and fully clean it all out - spotless. What-do-you-know, it spins - sometimes really well. Put it in the bike as-is and put some weight on it - obviously no good.
Again, absolutely a fantastic channel! Thanks for all the great info!
you pay a trained person for the knowledge and skills they have spent their time and money acquiring and the investment in the tools and other equipment required to provide the service you wish performed.. I used to regularly take 5- 15 minutes to repair a walkie talkie but then you have all the other associated costs such as administation staff, training, building rents etc ...so the minimum charge was 1 hours labour ....its just the cost of providing an overall service ....those costs have to be covered by someone and at the end of the day its the customer that requires the service that has to pay of it.
Very good summary. I'm currently finishing my Master's at a very expensive and hard to get into uni. As such, I obviously expect my future employer to respect the years and the money I invested to be able to work for them in the first place when considering my pay. It's the same thing, imo.
Don't forget implicit costs to the company also. They shop may have more profitable jobs to do and its not really worth their time at a rate lower than 1 hour.
The classic "you come to me so that its a 10 min job"
I want to chime in on the question Seth asked " how much should a bike shop charge" As I have gotten back into MTB riding after 20 years I can easily say this 10 minutes of labor is worth an easy hour of labor or even a touch more. Like they said 20 years of experience teaches you where to hit the hammer not how to hit the hammer. I can only pray I find this type of experience in my LBS to assist in keeping my bike running smooth and safe as I learn.. I am handy person but have so much to learn on bike repair !! I haven't worked on bikes since 1996 through 2001. So much has changed!!! I truly loved my Gary Fisher Aquila back in the day but my new Cannondale Habit 4 is so much more advanced!! Park tool guys and Seth you all rock!!!
This video is why I love my lefty front hub. No adjusting caps or adjustment at all. Just press new bearings in and put rotor back on front wheel and reinstall the wheel. Perfect adjustment and if you ever notice any side to side play just pop out the bad bearing and replace with new bearing simple as that.
Often the play in a lefy from hub can be taken care of with a small shim from Cannondale, installed just behind the NDS bearing. .
most shops, including the one I work at, would just replace the bearnings
Its less expensive for the shop
@@ltw707 it's less expensive than tapping it with a hammer?
@@zakiry8634 maybe less expensive than trying to figure out what the real problem is in the first place
Which is just a waste of bearings, there was NOTHING wrong with the bearings, only the preload.
Congrats on working for a wasteful company? Dolt.
@@shawnpitman876 Why did you call someone a *dolt* for repeating what is a standard operating policy set by management and owners of a shop he works for that is standard across an entire industry? I don't know about you, but when I clock into my job for the day I don't get to just decide to break rules set by my bosses because I feel like it.
Spot on m8 & yes that fix came from years of knowledge rather than a txt book referral
This is crazy, I've never thought of that
It looks like Seth is kneeling down!
The moral of this video is SPOT ON.
This is the perfect example in order to understand why hubs like *_Chris King_* and *_Onyx_* with a solid axle from dropout to dropout and bearing preload adjustability, are far superior than the ones without, in every aspect and thus appreciate their high price from a new perspective!
If a person isn't willing to invest their time to learn and their money on tools, then they should pay their bike mechanic the posted minimum rate, or whatever the shop has invoiced. How much is your ride time worth?
I'm going to need to check my wheel bearings now!
I work at the bike shop on sea island and we use all park tools, and the question of how much we would charge, would be either $30 for a tune up or maybe less because it doesn't take too long
Anyone else cringed when Calvin got all touchy feely around the rotor after re-greasing the bearing? I myself am still a dumbass and i wouldn't trust myself that much and remove the rotor beforehand. Service by people who don't have to do that naturally costs more.
Love the video.
I am a fan of seth and u guys
My LBS has a great Mechanic, and does great work. Unfortunately the LBS has terrible manager, and has been a little snotty. It has made me come to the conclusion I just need to work on my own bikes for now on.
I wish I had a mechanic like you!
Excellent video, too bad he doesn't make more like these anymore.
Yay seth is back!
It's always good to pay the bike mechanic for their experience as well as for their minutes working on Your bike.
Knowledge is power!!! Pay them what they know!!!!!
these guys are great
Doesn't the seal get damaged when you pop it out? Meaning the grease will go dry faster? And then back to the bike shop? Hence it's easier in the long run just to replace (from a bike shop perspective). The labour is the costly part for the customer - not two bearings.
The seals are not typically damaged. If this was at a shop, I would hope the customer was not right there. So, I would then call the customer and tell them whats going on and what they have for options and what each one of those options would cost. Since this was not a bike shop fix and we did not have bearings on hand, we did what we could to make the hubs better. Worked out great and we had a very happy customer in the end. Plus we and many people around the world had the opportunity to learn as well.
Excellent video!
I've come across several hubs with Novatec/Joytec as OEM (branded under several names) having this issue. Axle flanges are a touch too wide and should have been machined a couple more tenths to relieve the inner races. On road hubs they may just bind up as soon as you tighten the QR and caps compress. Only fix would be a 0.1mm shim for outer race.
Very common on Cannondale Left hubs. C-dale actually sells shims as well. The interference fit will hold the outer race in place for this fix to last.
Once the bearing popped out, why not clean it totally with brake clean or rubber safe solvent, then grease and install? I think most of the smoothness came from the grease finally working it's way to where it needed to be. Once you reassemble, the preload will eventually go back to what it was once the thru axle is tight and it gets ridden. Lastly, why not just put enduro angular contact bearings in there that can handle preload and side loads much better.
The fresh grease helped quite a bit. But there was still excessive side load causing the bearing to be rough. Once the bearing was reinstalled the ID of the bearing was touching the step on the axle. So when the thru axle is tightened it will not move the bearing at all. We did test this with the fork bottoms that we had on hand. they allow a person to feel how the bearings feel once the wheel is installed. Since most of the load is radial and that there is no tweakable preload I would not put angular contact bearings in this hub.
I refer to this process as the "technical tap", if you know what you're doing it should work but if you don't then you could cost yourself a lot of money
Nice demonstration...
Great video, thank you
depends on your relationship with your mechanic, if you are friends and ride together he may only charge you parts and materials and teach you how to do it like these guys but if you go to some big cold bike shop where they see you for the first time you're getting charged just for showing up. Not saying you should purposely befriend a mechanic and exploit them, I always offer to pay at least a couple bucks even when they would let me go free just to keep the shop going, just saying mechanic's perspective on whether or not he should charge for knowledge changes depending who he is giving that knowledge to
Big Hammer job
i think mechanics should charge flat fees based on the service required. should there be issues that go well beyond the norm and take a lot of extra resources and time, the charge could increase
i set my hourly goal at about $75 per but as you say, that can be dropped to 10/15 minutes due to experience. Also, my Park Tool collection was not cheap !
You don't pay for the labour, you pay for the experience.
I heard that somewhere
Be fair to the customer but increase the mechanics pay for their knowledge.
What camera did Seth have?
It was a Sony. Not sure of the model.
I think I have the same problem with my PFBB
Just done this on my bike before watching it on youtube.
gravey job with biscuit wheels
Since Seth mention how much a bike shop should charge for it. My bike shop charged me $20 to tighten my bottom bracket without removing it. I just want to know if that was more then it should be. Only because I had tighten the bottom bracket before on my own, I only asked the guy at the shop because I was there for other repairs. Also its a BMX with a unsealed bottom bracket and it took me half a minute to tighten it on my own.
Park Tool must have a Million Dollars worth of tools at that main facility.
why are you not using WH1
The WH-1 was but a distant dream when this video was made......
so quick release are better because you can adjust the preload
If it's Calvin and Truman hitting my bike with a hammer, I wont mind.
Great 👍
3:40 that’s a hour labor if you shop has someone good enough to diag it that fast and repair it!!
To me it doesn’t matter how long I’ve been doing it, if it takes me ten minutes then I am charging them that price because that way they are coming back and if they dont then more fool them.
Bike shops in UK are so shit that I decided to buy my own tools and fix my bike myself.
A mechanic should not be penalized for ingenuity or speed. That's how they make their living.
oh yes thanks
towards that question ... i think thats what gives a bikeshop with competent and wise bike mechanics the edge over a bikeshop with not as experianced mechanics ... a qoute on qoute bad bike shop would have kept the bike for 3 days, odered new bearings and made an elephant from a fly ... the experienced bikeshop litterly wacks it with a hammer and makes it just as just like its ment to be.
only problem is the customer probalby dosent understand the worth and time thats kinda liked with that level of experiance but its the same for all jobs ... Computer Engineers being where im from ... face the same problem. Customers dont understand where things fail and they just see it working or not working and "it worked last time so quick why not this time?!" .... its the curse of the speciallist
The 20 years it took to figure out to take it apart and put it back together. smh
I don’t get why people hate the premiere thing. It makes the channel seem more professional which is fitting for a company like park tool.
I cant speak for everyone. But for me: Its frusterating to see unaccessable videos in my feed. I'm not sure what to do with the information that a video is about to come out on a channel that I already subed . Its not a broadcast that I have to tune in for or I'll miss it. Once its posted, its permanently availabe on demand. I don't have to remember go look for it, its in my feed (the same place the premiere "fake video" placeholder shows up). If I'm subed I'll see both the premiere and the real video; if I'm not, I'll see the video if I search for it or the channel after it posts, and I won't see the premiere at all. Its an old-media tactic too, which is why i think you are calling it "professional". Personally, the hint of old-media this carries, turns me off because I like youtube for not being cable.
PS @Parktool: I really do like the channel and this video. And I do genuinely want to see you guys succeed. I just don't want my feed cluttered.
A premiere countdown for a 4 minute video thats even part 2 gimme a break man.
How to damage a bearing 101
I would charge 5
If you aren't willing to fix it yourself, you have to be willing to pay for it
Sometimes what they do with the hour of labor for the 3 minute fix, is worth it. I paid for their expertise...not their training... wrench on
Seth is really short
I think Calvin is really tall.
I think its a little bit of both
@@newttella1043
I think he said he’s 5’4”
Only 3 more days to go!
First of all, thanks for all your great educational content. There is nothing like it on the web! But I don't think the hammer hack is good for the bearings.
1. Seems like the hub manufacturer should have done a better job of designing their hub to achieve correct preload. Maybe this was a cheapie hub with no provision for adjusting preload, like threads and nuts, or maybe it's just a manufacturing tolerance issue. It just seems like a mfg is asking for trouble by not providing this adjustment. Hammering seems awful primitive. I know this is a hack.
2. I think hammering may cause denting of the races by the balls. What you did with the hammer is like press-fitting a new bearing by applying the force the wrong race (the one without the interference fit, whether inner or outer) which is not advised by bearing manufacturers because it stresses the cups and balls. During normal operation, any sudden shocks from the road are cushioned by the tires and suspension, and there is little thrust force on the bearings, unlike the hammer blows.
Ever heard of tolerances???
$2 per minute unless time is wasted.
Bearings are the cheapest insurance you can buy, i would have replaced those bearings.
$999,999,999,999
Tech Tuesday cool Seth's bike just okay I think it's time to move on from Seth.
Remind me never to loan Seth a bike.
seth is so small
.
.
A bike mechanic would be a great job if there were no customers and no boss. Wait, that's my garage. Life's too short to tolerate nutters. Don't pressure wash your bike, especially bearings.
Should've asked Thor to do that trick..
you say that you pay for the experience.... but surely you were paid to get the experience. if i pay for the experience you have, then surely the guys you charged the same amount 10 years ago but it took 2 or 3 times as long should get a refund.
Thats kinda like saying a person should get back pay for completing a repair done 10 years ago for what a person earns today..... Thus why most repair shops charge a set rate for a repair. A more experienced mechanic can complete it faster but the customer pays the same. Either way, No one is refunding you your money :)