I remember watching Elder Holland’s interview with the BBC for the first time on TH-cam a few years back. Elder Holland hemmed and hawed, misdirected, backpedaled and outright lied to the journalist. The interviewer Kriptón pressing Holland till he admitted that yes, the church does have it’s own organization that monitors individuals and organizations that it believes are subversive to the teachings of the church. In that interview I lost all respect I had for Holland, the man’s first instinct when confronted with an inconvenient truth is to lie or misdirect.
I attended a Fireside in the UK where Elder Holland stated that Joseph Smith Jr was only armed with a Walking Cane when he and his brother, Hyrum, were murdered by a mob. When according to reports, there was at least one pistol that was used by them, in their defence. Obviously Elder Holland never knew this fact!
Once the church went down, the path of deception. Not only once but several times. Was enough to awaken me that if the church cannot be honest with the little things, how could I trust them to be honest in the big things such as who is the true Jesus Christ and eternal life. This was when I left Mormonism for Christianity and started back to the basics. God and the bible. I'm healing from the abuse of mormonism.
Door #1: Holland knew about the seer stone and lied about it. Door #2: Even Holland was ignorant to the true history. Which of those isn’t problematic?
TBMs: door 3 “it doesn’t matter how it was translated” it’s almost like all the TBMs got together and said that will be their new apologetic for every single problematic issue. “It doesn’t matter” gtfoh.
Holland has been caught on numerous occasions being a tricksy fellow. All Mormons really need to know about the validity of the "feelings" method for knowing the "truth" is that they have been taught this "method" by the same leaders who have been caught distorting facts, hiding facts and lying on numerous occasions...the same leaders who insist that even with the feelings method...it only works when it confirms whatever it is that the leaders are saying today.
Holland has been caught being "tricksy" many times, so I'll go with Door #1. Pattern recognition doesn't always guarantee 100% accuracy. But it usually leads to the correct conclusion.
My young married daughter said few years ago that she didn’t have a testimony of the church like her parents do but she said she would still stay in the church and bring her kids too because of the things she remembered being taught from Primary to Young women, things like, respect others, do service to others, honor your parents, be a law abiding citizen, get an education, spend quality time with your family, help the poor, among many other things. It’s beyond me seeing the effort people put in to try to destroy others faith by trying to dig history and see if they can find something to discredit whoever!! If I had a neighbor that belonged to a church that worshiped the whales and yet they were taught to be good citizens, serve others, help the poor, get an education etc I would never go out of my way to destroy their faith. I rather have a whale worshipper that is honest, loving, law abiding citizen as my neighbor than an evil “Christian.” Who cares if it was the Brazilians or the Americans that invented the airplane as long as we can benefit from it?! If the church were killing babies I would be right by your side on the cause, but you come and make a huge deal about how it was translated?? Really?? Why don’t you talk about what is in it instead? At your age I want to be volunteering in a good cause doesn’t matter if it’s the Catholic Church , LDS, Muslim whatever. Go do something that will REALLY makes a difference in people’s life. Unfortunately for you your video says more about what kind of person you are than about the church and its leaders.
The leaders know absolutely for sure that it is not true and they know absolutely for sure that they have been deceiving the members. Just follow the money
@@starguy2718 And saved for a rainy day, not for using to benefit humanity. They do not love their neighbors. The homeless problem in Salt Lake City proper itself is absolutely appalling.
They can have double standards but no one else can . And when members call it out it then becomes a downward spiral , but a deconstruction is needed to move forward to live our best most authentic life . Putting only our faith in the God of Isreal .
I actually started study the bible more intensly, still as protestant, when I came in touch with the book of mormon. I did then do my own research about the book of mormon especially what it said about the jews, because I am a german and I grieve over the history of Germany sometimes. All in all this book made me feel very stunned every time I read it.
So who do we direct our frustrations of the lie upon? -The initiator of the lie… JS is long dead! -The church leadership that inherited a boat full of holes, and have bailing for over 100 years. -God for allowing it to happen. - ourselves for not being open to truth that contradict what we believed - others? -no one! What did we learn?
I watched to the end. I lived in SLC for a year on a temp engineering assignment. Half of the office was LDS. The other half was obvious at 8 AM at the coffee pot. A young fellow in the office was determined to convert me to LDS. Until I asked one too many questions. He ended all conversation. I told him I hope you find a way out of your cult
I dont have an issue with a rock in a hat, in my teens i was in the new age field, so crystals werent an issue. How the church deals with it and teaches it is an issue.
Hello BYP, are you still a member of the LDS church ? If yes, then I'm concerned that they come after you. Unfortunately Nemo is about to be excommunicated.
Totally inactive. Yes Nemo is getting the axe. Many others will as well. One now gets ex-ed for telling the truth, not spreading lies. Talk about totally backwards from 40 years ago....
I was visiting my mom about 6 months ago some missionaries showed up on her doorstep I happened to have a copy of the satanic Bible in my old room I let them in and argued with them nicely as a life long atheist myself. When they tried to leave more literature I offered them the copy of the satanic Bible the look I got was priceless and I bet they leave my mother with dementia alone in the future. I still find religions very fascinating in a Greek myth kind of way.
those poor baby mishies, they had no idea what they were walking into, did they? I do feel it's a shame that they aren't educated sufficiently to be able to speak back to any of it. 'Just bear your testimony,' &, 'You know enough.' That's not how debate works, guys.😅
@@LopsidedLiahona Missionary work has never been debate work. Such a hostile comment lacking in respect. I'm not a Jehovah Witness but I respect their faithful efforts to share the gospel.
The full and details history of the church is not important to me, I focus on the present and the future of my life in the church of Jesus Christ of LDS. I am not rich, I am not handsome, my life is not interesting, I live in the third world, but I have found peace because i found the right and the pure Church of Jesus Christ. ❤
Me too actually. It is in how they mishandle and hide the parts they don't think are faith promoting and force us into believing their interpretations that bothers me. Give me THE ENTIRE thing, and let ME understand inj my view, don't pretend the so-called "inspired" view is the only one to believe in order to be worthy of God. That is ludicrous, but it is their methodology. It fails.
@@TheBackyardProfessor I love the Mystery of the Lord, it is sacred, only His chosen servants understand it. We don't have ability to understand it but we have option to pray to know the truth, with faith, we know truth step by step.
The basis of the church and the intention of JS was to be rich and worshipped. A business, simply a business. Most of the anti-mormon literature is true, as a Baptist, I have argued this for decades.
@@claytondaddyBasically, the Baptist church was established in the early 1600s by English speaking Dutch, after the reformation, then brought to America by Roger Williams. S. Baptist split from the American Baptist in the 1800s basically over slavery (not a good look). However, now we are the more conservative and read the Bible with a more literal instead of liberal view. Originally, we believed everyone was entitled to read the Bible themselves in English.
Peer reviewed research from the Berkeley group confirm only 1 in a 15 trillion chance that Nephi and Alma were written by the same author. Paul Gregersen debunked the arrogant Egyptologist opinions against Joseph Smith by presenting proper interpretation. Joseph Smith was right, the Egyptologists were wrong. LDS scripture stands up to scrutiny.
so you show us a video talking about it, but what about Elder Holland video? if God created man using clay and from a rib, he formed a woman, if God can tell anybody you can divide the ocean or river using a branch, or you can see and interpreted king dreams using a rock in a cup, you will think that is a nonsensical? so God can do and use whatever he wants to do his work.
The Holy Ghost directly conferred the knowledge to me that The Book of Mormon is correct, when I had prayed to know. Whatever historical anecdote you present contrarily, I'm sticking to the Holy Ghost. Christian first. Which denomination second. The best choice is LDS.
Yes, you are missing a lot of pieces still. It does affect the course and direction currently. No, I don't think you are quite prepared for 'that' Rabbit hole. It's a doozy. Write more when I have the time.
Have you ever woken up and thought to yourself, man I have wasted my life away in the efforts to destroy people's beliefs, and I don't have anything to show for it?? If you haven't felt this way yet, just wait, it will come.
It is my hope that the more people see truth, the fewer children will suffer csa. According to Christ (and anyone capable of empathy), children's safety trumps your comfort.
Nope. Because I have replaced it with something of infinite value. But tearing down and telling truth to help keeping people from being deceived is a value that is incredible as well.
@@TheBackyardProfessorMy young married daughter said few years ago that she didn’t have a testimony of the church like her parents do but she said she would still stay in the church and bring her kids too because of the things she remembered being taught from Primary to Young women, things like, respect others, do service to others, honor your parents, be a law abiding citizen, get an education, spend quality time with your family, help the poor, among many other things. It’s beyond me seeing the effort people put in to try to destroy others faith by trying to dig history and see if they can find something to discredit whoever!! If I had a neighbor that belonged to a church that worshipped the whales and yet they were taught to do service to others, honor their parents, be a law abiding citizen, get an education, spend quality time with their family, help the poor, although I believe that worshipping whales is completely wrong I would never start go out of my way to destroy their faith, simply because they are doing a lot of good and I would rather have a decent, honest and loving whale worshipper as a neighbor then a false “loving” Christian. Live and let others live. Who cares if it was the Brazilians or the Americans that invented the airplanes as long as we can benefit from it. That kind of criticism tells more about your resentment than about the church and its leaders.
Saying something is "magic" rocks is a lie. I agree with Holland. It's taking a significant event the translation of the Book of Mormon and ascribing MAN-made misunderstanding to the process. Joseph Smith used the SEER stones, were they just "MAGIC ROCKS". I don't think so, they were fashioned together into a particular instrument. He also translated without them as well. Pretty much, some rando tells a story of a pastor tricking and misdirecting a missionary. Holland was right to say, "how did that make you feel?" Rightfully so, the spirit was not there. That was the point of Elder Hollands counsel.
WOW, BROTHER, you really stretched what Holland said. First off, It's a rando online telling us her story about a friend... Talk about playing the TELEPHONE GAME!! The details of "what" Holland said and "How" he said it are very important. To the point of you calling him a liar. JUST STOP DUDE. You have no clue what or how someone said something, This is the dumb logic and name calling I've seen from you... If this is your analysis of a simple event, all those books behind you mean NOTHING.
Oh brother…anything to stop people from “ believing a lie”. I joined the Church in 1990, and the missionaries that taught me knew of the seer stones. Stop calling them “ rocks in a hat”.
I joined the church in 1972, and I was absolutely not taught this version of the translation of the Book of Mormon. I was taught that this was an anti-mormon lie as well as many other things that have turned out to be true and are now in the gospel topics essays.
There are other ways to reconcile past church teachings vs current church teachings rather than making a knee-jerk judgement call that church leaders have been knowingly 'lying to us all along'. The way I see it, church leaders, both past and current, for the most part during their callings as church leaders, have to focus mainly on central church doctrine rather than academic disciplines such as history, science, archaeology, etc. That is the nature of their calling and that is what is expected of them in that calling, and it makes sense that it should be so. They were also brought up in the same cultural and religious environment as us 'ordinary' members. Regarding church history, it is true that there are many things that we have found out about in the past several years that were not known to the vast majority of members in previous years, including me. I am also convinced that among such members who were ignorant of such things, that includes many, if not most or all, current and previous church leaders, being brought up in the same religious culture as mine, which tended to be very literalist and traditional. Regarding this particular 2nd hand relation of Elder Holland's interaction with a former missionary, one can interpret it in other ways, more along the lines of what I alluded to above. - I don't know how long ago this incident occurred, but it sounds like it was well before the 'seer stone in the hat' method of translation was universally known by the vast majority of members. At the time of the incident, I don't find it at all unreasonable to believe that Elder Holland himself didn't believe in the idea of the 'seer stone in the hat' method of translation. Additionally, I can easily see his response to the missionary being geared more to the fact that the Pastor in question was trying to shake his faith by being very critical of the church's beliefs, and how he felt about that. So I think he would have used the same approach to the missionary regardless of the actual truth of what the Pastor was saying, by addressing rather the spirit of what the Pastor was trying to communicate, which was to doubt his faith. I don't have a problem with Elder Holland believing at that time that the 'stone in the hat' method was false. We still see that attitude today with the entire Heartland movement and Hannah Stoddard and related folks. They insist on the traditional interpretation and insinuate that those who believe otherwise have been deluded by 'apostate' anti-LDS ideas. - Like many members, including myself, I believe that Elder Holland has reconsidered his previous opinions on that matter, and most likely is in agreement with the latest Gospel Topics Essays. If he were to have the same conversation with a missionary again, I would bet that he would handle it differently and not given the impression that the idea of a 'seer stone in a hat' was in and of itself a false teaching, but rather the way it was used to denigrate Joseph Smith was the problem. The leaders are human and make human mistakes just like any of us. We are all limited by our prejudices and lack of knowledge. If one is of a very critical and cynical mindset, which this video seems to reflect, this same type of accusation can be made about any number of topics, including topics that are in all of the Gospel Topics Essays and many topics which are not. The overriding question is whether or not the leaders were purposely lying or else were themselves not aware of the latest research. Church history, and history in general, is very messy, and I think the church leaders are honestly trying to do the best they can to navigate this difficult territory the best way they know how, and I think the Gospel Topics Essays are a big step in the right direction. One can either take the cynical approach that it was a big cover up or else the more charitable (and to me more logical) approach that they are learning along with the rest of us, that we're all in the same boat. There is always the tension between the traditionalists/literalists who don't want to accept the new research vs. the more open minded and flexible folks who welcome the new information and see it as a positive thing. I am firmly in the latter camp. The leaders have to navigate that difficult territory which is like walking on eggshells at times as there is a valid concern over alienating the traditionalists/literalists and causing them to leave the faith. One prime example of this tension, which affects all of Christianity and other monotheistic religions is the entire subject of science vs religion, regarding evolution vs young earth creationism, local vs. global flood, etc. The church takes a neutral position now, which makes sense to me, in order to navigate this area of tension. Historically however, some church leaders were very outspoken about evolution being satanic. I see that as human error based on their cultural/religious upbringing, an ignorance which was no fault of their own. I see religion and science as both very necessary and important. I believe in evolution. However, I can also see why and how some folks are skeptical of evolution and skeptical of science, while others are the other way around (pro-science and very skeptical of religion). I try to be understanding and patient with both camps.
You’re getting this story about Elder Holland from a third party. Someone who either had and lost or never had a witness by the Holy Ghost of its truthfulness. Sad. I read in that book every day. It did not come from the mind of a man. And it does bring a person closer to God. End of story.
I have read and studied thoroughly for 70 years, and I know for certain it is full of anachronisms and plagiarisms and lacks archeological support. It's a 19th-century novel of Joseph's myth.
Ok. Here's a firsthand story. I was taught in seminary that Joseph Smith used the urim and thummim to translate. There were even illustrations of the breastplate with twelve precious stones used by the ancient Israelites. This story mentioned in the video may not have clear citations but it reflects a lot of people's experiences
I have first hand evidence. I was taught emphatically in the early 1970’s by my LDS friends that Smith being a treasure digger and using a rock in a hat to translate the Book of Mormon were Anti Mormon lies. Lies! Gee I wonder where they received that info?
I have a firsthand story. When I was at the MTC, I heard one of the apostles tell us to lie to investigators that we had a testimony even if we didn't have a testimony.
@@jacobopstad5483The Old Testament student manual I purchased at BYU for my religion class had this breastplate on its cover. BYU religion dept used to teach the U&T in frames worn like glasses were used to translate the BoM. I suspect that's been, uh, updated since my tenure there. 😅
Are you honest in your dealings with your fellow man? That’s my only question for Holland and the other leaders.
Can we excommunicate them for lying... like they are excommunicating Nemo for telling the truth???
I remember watching Elder Holland’s interview with the BBC for the first time on TH-cam a few years back. Elder Holland hemmed and hawed, misdirected, backpedaled and outright lied to the journalist. The interviewer Kriptón pressing Holland till he admitted that yes, the church does have it’s own organization that monitors individuals and organizations that it believes are subversive to the teachings of the church. In that interview I lost all respect I had for Holland, the man’s first instinct when confronted with an inconvenient truth is to lie or misdirect.
I remember watching that for the first time too. Utterly dismayed me.
I attended a Fireside in the UK where Elder Holland stated that Joseph Smith Jr was only armed with a Walking Cane when he and his brother, Hyrum, were murdered by a mob.
When according to reports, there was at least one pistol that was used by them, in their defence.
Obviously Elder Holland never knew this fact!
Holland was my BoM teacher at BYU in 1965-66. Funny that he never told me about the rock in the hat.
Once the church went down, the path of deception. Not only once but several times. Was enough to awaken me that if the church cannot be honest with the little things, how could I trust them to be honest in the big things such as who is the true Jesus Christ and eternal life. This was when I left Mormonism for Christianity and started back to the basics. God and the bible. I'm healing from the abuse of mormonism.
Excellent points and well put
Door #1: Holland knew about the seer stone and lied about it.
Door #2: Even Holland was ignorant to the true history.
Which of those isn’t problematic?
TBMs: door 3 “it doesn’t matter how it was translated”
it’s almost like all the TBMs got together and said that will be their new apologetic for every single problematic issue. “It doesn’t matter” gtfoh.
Holland has been caught on numerous occasions being a tricksy fellow. All Mormons really need to know about the validity of the "feelings" method for knowing the "truth" is that they have been taught this "method" by the same leaders who have been caught distorting facts, hiding facts and lying on numerous occasions...the same leaders who insist that even with the feelings method...it only works when it confirms whatever it is that the leaders are saying today.
They (the bretheren) new the truth for over 100 years.
Holland has been caught being "tricksy" many times, so I'll go with Door #1. Pattern recognition doesn't always guarantee 100% accuracy. But it usually leads to the correct conclusion.
Leaving NO POSSIBILITY
for
"possibility".
Masterfully.
Thank 🌺you.
My young married daughter said few years ago that she didn’t have a testimony of the church like her parents do but she said she would still stay in the church and bring her kids too because of the things she remembered being taught from Primary to Young women, things like, respect others, do service to others, honor your parents, be a law abiding citizen, get an education, spend quality time with your family, help the poor, among many other things.
It’s beyond me seeing the effort people put in to try to destroy others faith by trying to dig history and see if they can find something to discredit whoever!!
If I had a neighbor that belonged to a church that worshiped the whales and yet they were taught to be good citizens, serve others, help the poor, get an education etc I would never go out of my way to destroy their faith. I rather have a whale worshipper that is honest, loving, law abiding citizen as my neighbor than an evil “Christian.”
Who cares if it was the Brazilians or the Americans that invented the airplane as long as we can benefit from it?!
If the church were killing babies I would be right by your side on the cause, but you come and make a huge deal about how it was translated?? Really?? Why don’t you talk about what is in it instead?
At your age I want to be volunteering in a good cause doesn’t matter if it’s the Catholic Church , LDS, Muslim whatever.
Go do something that will REALLY makes a difference in people’s life.
Unfortunately for you your video says more about what kind of person you are than about the church and its leaders.
The leaders know absolutely for sure that it is not true and they know absolutely for sure that they have been deceiving the members. Just follow the money
Dittos. If the Joseph Smith story was true, the leaders wouldn't have tried to bury Mark Hofmann's damaging documents.
Over 100 billion dollars in the bank.
Yes, indeed: follow the -profits- prophets.
@@starguy2718 And saved for a rainy day, not for using to benefit humanity. They do not love their neighbors. The homeless problem in Salt Lake City proper itself is absolutely appalling.
@@starguy2718 It's more like $260 billion.
They can have double standards but no one else can . And when members call it out it then becomes a downward spiral , but a deconstruction is needed to move forward to live our best most authentic life . Putting only our faith in the God of Isreal .
I actually started study the bible more intensly, still as protestant, when I came in touch with the book of mormon. I did then do my own research about the book of mormon especially what it said about the jews, because I am a german and I grieve over the history of Germany sometimes. All in all this book made me feel very stunned every time I read it.
It doesn't appear to me to be what the church says it is anymore than the Book of Abraham is.
So who do we direct our frustrations of the lie upon?
-The initiator of the lie… JS is long dead!
-The church leadership that inherited a boat full of holes, and have bailing for over 100 years.
-God for allowing it to happen.
- ourselves for not being open to truth that contradict what we believed
- others?
-no one! What did we learn?
I watched to the end. I lived in SLC for a year on a temp engineering assignment. Half of the office was LDS. The other half was obvious at 8 AM at the coffee pot. A young fellow in the office was determined to convert me to LDS. Until I asked one too many questions. He ended all conversation. I told him I hope you find a way out of your cult
Well now church says JS didn’t just translate it, it was “inspired translation”. Wtf the word games continue.
What is the World Trade Forum got to do with the point under discussion?😮😅
@@alexanderv7702 Thank you for highlighting how Mormons seem to have a proclivity for misinterpreting things.
I dont have an issue with a rock in a hat, in my teens i was in the new age field, so crystals werent an issue. How the church deals with it and teaches it is an issue.
Also. Mark Twain once remarked that the Book of Mormon is chlourorform in print.
Hello BYP, are you still a member of the LDS church ? If yes, then I'm concerned that they come after you. Unfortunately Nemo is about to be excommunicated.
Totally inactive. Yes Nemo is getting the axe. Many others will as well. One now gets ex-ed for telling the truth, not spreading lies. Talk about totally backwards from 40 years ago....
Long before the Book of Mormon Joe Smith Jr used rock in a hat to find buried treasures.
And he never did get any either.... every adventure failed, until the Gold plates, that is......
I was visiting my mom about 6 months ago some missionaries showed up on her doorstep I happened to have a copy of the satanic Bible in my old room I let them in and argued with them nicely as a life long atheist myself. When they tried to leave more literature I offered them the copy of the satanic Bible the look I got was priceless and I bet they leave my mother with dementia alone in the future. I still find religions very fascinating in a Greek myth kind of way.
...and you are proud of yourself, why?
those poor baby mishies, they had no idea what they were walking into, did they?
I do feel it's a shame that they aren't educated sufficiently to be able to speak back to any of it. 'Just bear your testimony,' &, 'You know enough.' That's not how debate works, guys.😅
@@LopsidedLiahona Missionary work has never been debate work. Such a hostile comment lacking in respect. I'm not a Jehovah Witness but I respect their faithful efforts to share the gospel.
The full and details history of the church is not important to me, I focus on the present and the future of my life in the church of Jesus Christ of LDS. I am not rich, I am not handsome, my life is not interesting, I live in the third world, but I have found peace because i found the right and the pure Church of Jesus Christ. ❤
Me too actually. It is in how they mishandle and hide the parts they don't think are faith promoting and force us into believing their interpretations that bothers me. Give me THE ENTIRE thing, and let ME understand inj my view, don't pretend the so-called "inspired" view is the only one to believe in order to be worthy of God. That is ludicrous, but it is their methodology. It fails.
@@TheBackyardProfessor I love the Mystery of the Lord, it is sacred, only His chosen servants understand it. We don't have ability to understand it but we have option to pray to know the truth, with faith, we know truth step by step.
The basis of the church and the intention of JS was to be rich and worshipped. A business, simply a business. Most of the anti-mormon literature is true, as a Baptist, I have argued this for decades.
So now is time for you to check your own church, how it was created, by whom, with what authority, etc.
@@claytondaddyBasically, the Baptist church was established in the early 1600s by English speaking Dutch, after the reformation, then brought to America by Roger Williams. S. Baptist split from the American Baptist in the 1800s basically over slavery (not a good look). However, now we are the more conservative and read the Bible with a more literal instead of liberal view. Originally, we believed everyone was entitled to read the Bible themselves in English.
Bro--You must be a speed reader. I enjoy reading, but it takes me a while to get through books. Maybe once the kids are out of the house :)
Yep, I love to read........
I wish it weren’t second hand
5:23 yes, please do! Would love your take!
Great insight! Thanks!
"Magic rocks"
😄😄😄
The Book of Mormon is a awsome book , we need more of those magic rocks ,
😂
What was then apostle Russell Nelson’s involvement in speaking to the story of the rock in a hat?
Peer reviewed research from the Berkeley group confirm only 1 in a 15 trillion chance that Nephi and Alma were written by the same author. Paul Gregersen debunked the arrogant Egyptologist opinions against Joseph Smith by presenting proper interpretation. Joseph Smith was right, the Egyptologists were wrong. LDS scripture stands up to scrutiny.
Are you saying lds issatans church got it
so you show us a video talking about it, but what about Elder Holland video? if God created man using clay and from a rib, he formed a woman, if God can tell anybody you can divide the ocean or river using a branch, or you can see and interpreted king dreams using a rock in a cup, you will think that is a nonsensical? so God can do and use whatever he wants to do his work.
The Church is true. Let those with ears to hear, ear.
Oh, jeez. You’re using this woman? She’s so deceptive.
The Holy Ghost directly conferred the knowledge to me that The Book of Mormon is correct, when I had prayed to know.
Whatever historical anecdote you present contrarily, I'm sticking to the Holy Ghost.
Christian first. Which denomination second. The best choice is LDS.
Yes, you are missing a lot of pieces still.
It does affect the course and direction currently.
No, I don't think you are quite prepared for 'that' Rabbit hole. It's a doozy.
Write more when I have the time.
Have you ever woken up and thought to yourself, man I have wasted my life away in the efforts to destroy people's beliefs, and I don't have anything to show for it?? If you haven't felt this way yet, just wait, it will come.
It is my hope that the more people see truth, the fewer children will suffer csa. According to Christ (and anyone capable of empathy), children's safety trumps your comfort.
Belief in what? A Fraud?? That opens it up to Public Scrutiny
Nope. Because I have replaced it with something of infinite value. But tearing down and telling truth to help keeping people from being deceived is a value that is incredible as well.
@@TheBackyardProfessorMy young married daughter said few years ago that she didn’t have a testimony of the church like her parents do but she said she would still stay in the church and bring her kids too because of the things she remembered being taught from Primary to Young women, things like, respect others, do service to others, honor your parents, be a law abiding citizen, get an education, spend quality time with your family, help the poor, among many other things.
It’s beyond me seeing the effort people put in to try to destroy others faith by trying to dig history and see if they can find something to discredit whoever!!
If I had a neighbor that belonged to a church that worshipped the whales and yet they were taught to do service to others, honor their parents, be a law abiding citizen, get an education, spend quality time with their family, help the poor, although I believe that worshipping whales is completely wrong I would never start go out of my way to destroy their faith, simply because they are doing a lot of good and I would rather have a decent, honest and loving whale worshipper as a neighbor then a false “loving” Christian. Live and let others live. Who cares if it was the Brazilians or the Americans that invented the airplanes as long as we can benefit from it.
That kind of criticism tells more about your resentment than about the church and its leaders.
Saying something is "magic" rocks is a lie. I agree with Holland. It's taking a significant event the translation of the Book of Mormon and ascribing MAN-made misunderstanding to the process.
Joseph Smith used the SEER stones, were they just "MAGIC ROCKS". I don't think so, they were fashioned together into a particular instrument.
He also translated without them as well.
Pretty much, some rando tells a story of a pastor tricking and misdirecting a missionary. Holland was right to say, "how did that make you feel?"
Rightfully so, the spirit was not there. That was the point of Elder Hollands counsel.
WOW, BROTHER, you really stretched what Holland said. First off, It's a rando online telling us her story about a friend... Talk about playing the TELEPHONE GAME!!
The details of "what" Holland said and "How" he said it are very important. To the point of you calling him a liar.
JUST STOP DUDE. You have no clue what or how someone said something, This is the dumb logic and name calling I've seen from you...
If this is your analysis of a simple event, all those books behind you mean NOTHING.
Oh brother…anything to stop people from “ believing a lie”. I joined the Church in 1990, and the missionaries that taught me knew of the seer stones. Stop calling them “ rocks in a hat”.
I joined the church in 1972, and I was absolutely not taught this version of the translation of the Book of Mormon. I was taught that this was an anti-mormon lie as well as many other things that have turned out to be true and are now in the gospel topics essays.
Rubbish.
There are other ways to reconcile past church teachings vs current church teachings rather than making a knee-jerk judgement call that church leaders have been knowingly 'lying to us all along'.
The way I see it, church leaders, both past and current, for the most part during their callings as church leaders, have to focus mainly on central church doctrine rather than academic disciplines such as history, science, archaeology, etc. That is the nature of their calling and that is what is expected of them in that calling, and it makes sense that it should be so. They were also brought up in the same cultural and religious environment as us 'ordinary' members.
Regarding church history, it is true that there are many things that we have found out about in the past several years that were not known to the vast majority of members in previous years, including me. I am also convinced that among such members who were ignorant of such things, that includes many, if not most or all, current and previous church leaders, being brought up in the same religious culture as mine, which tended to be very literalist and traditional.
Regarding this particular 2nd hand relation of Elder Holland's interaction with a former missionary, one can interpret it in other ways, more along the lines of what I alluded to above.
- I don't know how long ago this incident occurred, but it sounds like it was well before the 'seer stone in the hat' method of translation was universally known by the vast majority of members. At the time of the incident, I don't find it at all unreasonable to believe that Elder Holland himself didn't believe in the idea of the 'seer stone in the hat' method of translation. Additionally, I can easily see his response to the missionary being geared more to the fact that the Pastor in question was trying to shake his faith by being very critical of the church's beliefs, and how he felt about that. So I think he would have used the same approach to the missionary regardless of the actual truth of what the Pastor was saying, by addressing rather the spirit of what the Pastor was trying to communicate, which was to doubt his faith. I don't have a problem with Elder Holland believing at that time that the 'stone in the hat' method was false. We still see that attitude today with the entire Heartland movement and Hannah Stoddard and related folks. They insist on the traditional interpretation and insinuate that those who believe otherwise have been deluded by 'apostate' anti-LDS ideas.
- Like many members, including myself, I believe that Elder Holland has reconsidered his previous opinions on that matter, and most likely is in agreement with the latest Gospel Topics Essays. If he were to have the same conversation with a missionary again, I would bet that he would handle it differently and not given the impression that the idea of a 'seer stone in a hat' was in and of itself a false teaching, but rather the way it was used to denigrate Joseph Smith was the problem. The leaders are human and make human mistakes just like any of us. We are all limited by our prejudices and lack of knowledge.
If one is of a very critical and cynical mindset, which this video seems to reflect, this same type of accusation can be made about any number of topics, including topics that are in all of the Gospel Topics Essays and many topics which are not. The overriding question is whether or not the leaders were purposely lying or else were themselves not aware of the latest research.
Church history, and history in general, is very messy, and I think the church leaders are honestly trying to do the best they can to navigate this difficult territory the best way they know how, and I think the Gospel Topics Essays are a big step in the right direction. One can either take the cynical approach that it was a big cover up or else the more charitable (and to me more logical) approach that they are learning along with the rest of us, that we're all in the same boat. There is always the tension between the traditionalists/literalists who don't want to accept the new research vs. the more open minded and flexible folks who welcome the new information and see it as a positive thing. I am firmly in the latter camp. The leaders have to navigate that difficult territory which is like walking on eggshells at times as there is a valid concern over alienating the traditionalists/literalists and causing them to leave the faith.
One prime example of this tension, which affects all of Christianity and other monotheistic religions is the entire subject of science vs religion, regarding evolution vs young earth creationism, local vs. global flood, etc. The church takes a neutral position now, which makes sense to me, in order to navigate this area of tension. Historically however, some church leaders were very outspoken about evolution being satanic. I see that as human error based on their cultural/religious upbringing, an ignorance which was no fault of their own. I see religion and science as both very necessary and important. I believe in evolution. However, I can also see why and how some folks are skeptical of evolution and skeptical of science, while others are the other way around (pro-science and very skeptical of religion). I try to be understanding and patient with both camps.
Cool story, bro.
You’re getting this story about Elder Holland from a third party. Someone who either had and lost or never had a witness by the Holy Ghost of its truthfulness. Sad. I read in that book every day. It did not come from the mind of a man. And it does bring a person closer to God. End of story.
Jeffery R Holland was referring to the feeling not the wayThe Book of Mormon was translated. Fake news try again again
Who cares? Read the Book of Mormon and find out for yourself.
I have read and studied thoroughly for 70 years, and I know for certain it is full of anachronisms and plagiarisms and lacks archeological support. It's a 19th-century novel of Joseph's myth.
Yes, read all about those horses, elephants, and steel swords that didn't exist in Pre-Columbian America.
Testimony doesn’t trump Truths and Facts
Watch the South Park episode about Joseph Smith and find out for yourself.
@@TalkingtoMormons if this were true you would’ve asked God if it is true not look on TH-cam channels to find justification to you lack of faith
There is absolutely no credibility to her story. It's definitely believable. But unfortunately a random anecdote can't be used as evidence.
Ok. Here's a firsthand story. I was taught in seminary that Joseph Smith used the urim and thummim to translate. There were even illustrations of the breastplate with twelve precious stones used by the ancient Israelites. This story mentioned in the video may not have clear citations but it reflects a lot of people's experiences
I have first hand evidence. I was taught emphatically in the early 1970’s by my LDS friends that Smith being a treasure digger and using a rock in a hat to translate the Book of Mormon were Anti Mormon lies. Lies! Gee I wonder where they received that info?
I have a firsthand story. When I was at the MTC, I heard one of the apostles tell us to lie to investigators that we had a testimony even if we didn't have a testimony.
@@jacobopstad5483The Old Testament student manual I purchased at BYU for my religion class had this breastplate on its cover.
BYU religion dept used to teach the U&T in frames worn like glasses were used to translate the BoM. I suspect that's been, uh, updated since my tenure there. 😅
@@LopsidedLiahona I was definitely taught that JS used the U&T like glasses