This is my first Sandra exposure and I love her! I remember when I first heard about her she was labeled as a devil and that was way out in the Ky hills! None of us (faithful members)knew her at all. I feel such shame.
@erinhimes7057 😱 this is your first Sandra experience, I’m almost jealous that you now get to watch all her interviews for the first time. She’s one of my favourite humans & I was never even Mormon. I think I first saw her on Christian TH-cam a decade ago.
POLYANDRY: When the movie “Paint Your Wagon” came out in 1969, there was a discussion in the hall of Logan High School regarding the film's portrayal of polyandry. A woman, who was a Mormon Sister-Wife, ends up being “sold” to two men, and she carries on as if she is married to both. No one in the hall that day had heard the word “Polyandry” until I said it. When I explained what it meant, no one believed me. They didn’t think it had ever happened. Even after I gave a lecture on the Ancient Minoan Culture on Crete being Goddess-based, female-led, and practicing Polyandry, they told me I “made that up," It "wasn’t true," had "never happened anywhere," and the idea was “sickening.” This came from the GIRLS! It was extraordinary when half of them, at least, had polygamist ancestors. I knew I did! I mentioned that, and the consensus was a scandalized: “It isn’t the same thing at all!” People are SO strange!
if you look at most lds men they are androgynous due to I believe having their territorial instincts blunted by the show of superiority by superior leaders... fake alphas that can only kicked dogs... so polyandry wouldn't be a problem for them if it was taught as coming from god
About Joseph Smith being a narcissist and using polygamy as a power move, Dan Vogel says, “The more shameful things he can make his followers do, the more he gets off as a narcissist.”
"Why aren't [church officials] proud of these women?" That's such a good mic drop. For real?! Why aren't the names of these "elect ladies" of the early church widely known. It's almost like the church doesn't want it to be widely known Joseph had upwards of 50 wives, according to the gospel topic essay on polygamy. 30 is a low estimate.
This was my first thought when I read the GTE on polygamy. Why didn't I know their names as a life long member? Why was their sacrifice not important enough to name them? I started looking for their names and down the rabbit hole I went. 😢
Zeke, thank you for your vulnerability in being on this interview. "Whether it hurts or not, truth is truth." - exactly right! That's a hard pill to swallow sometimes.
I'm firmly convinced that knowing JS did this behind Emma's back would be enough to know this is deeply problematic. It's incredibly disrespectful. CES letters may be trying to justify JS actions but it's just going to reinforce how painful and disturbing polygamy was and is
What a powerhouse panel for this! I grew up Mormon, I’ve been watching MSP for over 2 years without missing an episode and binged the backlog and I learned a lot of new stuff in this episode.
By the way Zeke, I excommunicated the LDS church when I was almost 70 years old. That was 10 years ago, so I'm up there with Sandra Tanner! You're amongst friends. Love from Granny D in South Africa 🇿🇦❤
@@shanejensen8484I doubt she’s coming back to a church that is and has been run by liars. The leaders of the Mormon church should be absolutely ashamed for what they have done. They have not only intentionally hid the truth of so many issues like polygamy, they have also excommunicated numerous members for seeking out and exposing those truths. Maybe if the church wants members to come back they should start with a full and accurate accounting of those members they excommunicated (who were right btw) and get on their self-righteous knees and apologize. AND…they should set the record straight and acknowledge what they have hid. So what would Granny D or anyone else be coming back to? It’s sure as hell not the truth. It sure as hell is not a church run by ethical or moral men. Even to this day they still lie and obfuscate and hide (investment scandal). Btw…they do so because of their Second Anointing that allows them to “lie for the Lord.”
I need y'all to understand how much I love Sandra. It has taken me three days to get through this episode because of my lack of time, but everytime I watch and Sandra talks, I love her more. She is so smart and sassy and just everything.-
Every time I catch a Sandra Tanner interview or hear one of her talks on mormon history, it blesses my heart. I've been a fan of hers since seeing "The God Makers" which came out about 40yrs ago. She's been a thorn in the side of the church since the mid 1900s. Lover her ❤ ♥
Many women even today don’t report sexual harassment or assault for fear of shaming and not being believed. Joseph had all the power and these women had none. In the nineteenth century scandal was always harder on the woman. Look what happened to Fanny.
As a therapist treating religious scrupulosity in Utah county I’m sickened by Brian Hales assertion that Joseph Smith was always worthy!the church’s doctrine is constantly beating people over the head for much less than we know. Joseph Smith did😮 great episode. Thank you so much for all of your work.
Just finishing up this episode today and I have to say, if Brian Hales is lying to himself imo he knows it and justifies it. The panel was way too generous with their assessment of his motives. John, you nailed it. Protecting the church at ALL cost is the apologist only purpose. Twisting, obfuscating, leaving out pertinent facts of a narrative, to make things sound better are all forms of lying. Brian Hales and all other apologists KNOW it! 😤 I believe it’s called lying for the lord…ugh!
So grateful for this episode and for your informative guests! It's such a raw feeling realizing that as a child, trusted grown ups were teaching me to sing "Praise To The Man"; as I learn the truth about that man, I feel sick realizing what and who we were actually praising in reality. I'm SO grateful I have free access to empowering information compared to those pioneers who had no knowledge and thus were vulnerable.
Dan Vogel is the world’s foremost expert on Joseph Smith. Full stop. I’m not one to fawn over celebrities at all, but if I ever met Dan, I’d be awe struck and probably have to ask for a picture. Which he would hate. Love and appreciate you Dan for helping untold numbers deconstruct their years of brainwashing regarding Joseph smith and the bom.
Yes the destruction of this story is still damaging today. I’ve been married 20 years and have 4 beautiful kids and a 18 year firefighter paramedic. I found all the fraud and couldn’t betray my core values and tried to tell these things to my wife and she divorced me. She chose these beliefs over the security of the kids and her family. I have saved the lives of countless people and have had my retirement ruined over this story and narrative. Also my own mother shunned me during all this too.
I’m sorry-the stigma of divorce is hard snd the reality is hard on spouses and kids. I hope she can see your efforts and your family experiences some healing seeing everyone’s efforts and good intentions
3:28:41 Not true! My grandfather divorced his first wife (my grandmother) and was still “sealed” to her. He then married his second wife and was sealed to her! He was sealed to two LIVING women although he was only legally married to the one after divorcing my grandma.
I’m curious what the apologist response is to why a “spiritual marriage” would be necessary? I was taught my whole life that the only reason for polygamy was due to low numbers of men due to wars, death crossing the plains, disease, etc. and the only way Zion could be established would be to have more children, so one man would marry multiple women. If this was indeed the case, wouldn’t a “spiritual marriage” be completely superfluous? Also, why couldn’t the married/sealed women that Joseph married in polyandrous relationships be able to be sealed to their actual husbands? Is their sealing not sufficient?
You cannot understand how this crushes me. I rarely bring anything up about the truths about the church to my family Especially my oldest sister. I think it would kill her if she realized how messed up this so called religion is. I understood at a young age. I don't know why. It was bs.
@@shanejensen8484You knew what they meant, Shane. Don’t be daft. The ironic thing is only those members of the church trying to defend it’s indefensible position are the ones that are misinformed and cling to misinformation constantly propagated by the church. Remember, doubt your doubts. And seek not counsel from unbelievers. You literally remove yourselves from critical thought when your leaders tell you what you can and cannot read or what sources of information is or is not true. You, as so many members do, and as I once did, remind me of 1984. Doublethink is a real issue with active members. But that’s not surprising as you’ll reject any factual evidence or data backed up with a solid logical argument because you have a “testimony that the church is true.” “Orthodoxy means not thinking--not needing to think. Orthodoxy is unconsciousness.” WAKE UP!
As a long-time listener & never mormon, several points made today, combined with previously learned doctine, really makes it seem like Joseph Smith was just a garden variety cult leader that surprised himself with his success & even he never actually believed any of this. More pointedly, Emma never believed Joseph's stories & more likely just determined that being 1st wife to the leader was better for her, regardless of his philandering.
Perhaps the oddest thing for me to see here is the fact that when Brian Hales was interviewed by John Dehlin in a three part series concerning his polygamy books he spoke with certainty that Josephine Lyon was Joseph's biological daughter. There was too much evidence to that fact. The church DNA studies were conducted after that interview concluding Josephine wasn't biologically related to Joseph Smith Jr. Brian Hales had to change his story. What we're really seeing is his apologetic double speak, and confirmation biased reading of the data to always put Joseph Smith Jr. in the best possible light. Just like Kerry Muhlstein admitted to with his Apologetics concerning the Book of Abraham. It's no wonder we have in public record now a lawyer representing the Church in tithing lawsuit that Church history is 1st amendment protected free speech & not necessarily authentic, vetted history. The church doesn't want to have to put its billions on the line for "authentic history" because in that bet, they lose and lose big.
This episode was explosive to me 🧨💥 I was raised LDS (in Denmark and Sweden), knew about the polygamy of the early "leaders" but learned so many disturbing new facts in this discussion/analysis. I had no idea just how wicked and manipulative it all was, the foundation of Mormonism. I'm so glad to be out of the cult but so so sad and honestly ashamed to have been a part of it. I feel such remorse over my mission, promoting and persuading people into this mess of a belief system. Can anyone relate?😢 Lots of love and gratitude to today's panel, it was stellar🌟✨🙏🏼❤️
As someone who has had to do investigations related to "conduct unbecoming," and as a psychologist, my perception is the JS polygamy and polyandry is primarily an abuse of power (especially the humiliation of the husbands), but libido/sex also is a part of the equation. I'll listen to arguments about equality of sexes when women can have multiple husbands in eternity, just as the men supposedly can.
FYI - Brian was in the Tab choir, he is retired, I was his first wife and married to him for 21 years, Laura was his second wife, and he is remarried to Janis, who is a wonderful person. I am no longer a believer and I am remarried to the most wonderful person. 😊 I would conclude him to be a fanatical Mormon. He is the father of my children. Enough said.
I was always taught it only existed to help the widows- why you have to marry and have sex to help a widow is beyond me- and only about 8 percent even practiced it.
I noticed that the apologist had his arms folded in front of him while he was explaining the current Mormon doctrine of polygamy in heaven. He was clearly uncomfortable. I enjoyed watching him squirm because so much of what he said triggered me. He is part of the corrupt system imo.
“High demand or cult religions.” I appreciate the language that this channel uses to frame its discussions. I think it’s the best way to frame all of this.
Sandra Tanner rocks! I love learning about how organizations manipulate information to control others. It makes it easier to identify the techniques in other areas of life.
This was fascinating, but I had to watch it in short bursts as Brian Hales’ silver-tongued lies and obfuscations really began to grate and set my teeth on edge. Thank goddess Sandra was there as a reality check, and that John and Gerardo were there keeping it all in perspective and not mincing words. Zeke’s reactions are priceless, and a bit heartbreaking to watch.
I grew up in the 80s in Chile, I came from a culturally rich environment and we used to pass by the Mormon church, we were a catholic family so it was new to me, so I asked my mom about this religion and she told me all about Joseph Smith and how it was his creation to earn money and to have a lot of spouses, so I went to the library and search on the encyclopedia more information because it was fascinating how a man could convince so many people and get soooo rich, because the temple here is huge so I assumed that it was a lot of money involved. Later when I was a teenager I learned that blond hair kids in poor neighborhoods were called Mormon children, because girls tricked Mormon missionaries in to sex to have a blonde child
Interesting! However, religieus institutions becoming rich is not an exception. The Catholic Church you mention is the same. The Catholic Church sold indulgence/indulgentia to the people as a way to have their sins forgiven. Muslims have to pay to visit the Kaaba, etc.
As I recall, the gospel topic article about polygamy states that the Church has no official record of all of Joseph Smith's marriages. What's the difference between unrecorded marriages and fornication? The double standards in the church are endless.
Classic obfuscation. The early church didn’t keep the same type of records as they do today. No surprise since they were a small group constantly on the run. However, they have plenty of evidence from contemporary letters, journals etc to confirm the general nature of Smith’s actions. But since they don’t have “official records” they can pretend that evidence doesn’t count.
I am stunned by Susan Tanner's point of why doesn't the LDS church honor these faithful servants of God (Joseph's plural wives) who went against public opinion to marry Joseph Smith. I never thought of it this way before. I was taught that although Joseph did practice polygamy, (I never knew any estimated number) he never had any children, meaning he did not have sex. I believed he was the only one who did not have sex with his plural wives even though his contemporaries were! My daughter recently pointed out to me why do I immediately defend Joseph by saying he didn't have sex with them? She made a good point. Susan's and my daughter's points have me rethinking about all this polygamy stuff.
This Brian guy is so flippant. He doesn't seem to care one bit about Emma. The behavior by Joseph and friends to deceive Emma is so disgusting . Im starting to really not care for this Brian guy. He is obviously well educated but what a waste of a soul.
At time code 2:39:58 it's interesting how he refers to women as resources. That's exactly how the Latter-day Saints see women. Not as people but as resources and the higher up you are in the organization the more "resources" you get.
I have never heard anyone ever comment on how these men could support all these wives and especially Brigham Young with so many children? It’s hard enough even today with just one wife and most of them have to work outside the home. And yet, in spite of Young’s huge families he died a multimillionaire, How did that happen.?
John, quick feedback - Dan's voice sounded lower than everyone else's, I had a bit of trouble hearing him whenever he spoke. It would've been great if his volume was higher so to match everything else. Wonderful episode ❤
Anyone know who is that individual CES director is that Jeremy wrote the original letter to? I’d like to follow up to see how that director reacts currently to current events.
What great episode! beautiful and bright guests, super interesting, from a a never Mormon woman. What I appreciate the most is to do this to support Jeremy Runnels who is a great human being. Love it! Invite everyone again I would love to see more.
John I was disturbed to find out the recent Temple wording changes for women are even more pro-polygamy as covered by the youtube channel Reasons To Rescind 👀💔
Zeke, thanks for your service. Seek info from all sources. My wager is that if your motivation is neutral and you’re open minded, you’ll land in a good spot. Like they all say many times, “ I think, we think…”. Opinions aren’t facts. We support those that support our agenda.
Brian lied again when he stated that “…a man can be sealed to more than one wife in the temple today as long as the other wives are deceased.” This is not true. I’m divorced but never got a temple divorce. I recently received a letter from my x-husband’s bishop asking for my permission to allow him to be sealed to his new wife. They’re married legally but not sealed in the temple. Obviously I’m not dead!
I looked up JS on family search, and he has listed (on his read only profile) 31 wives (including Emma). Interesting nugget. I would call that the church officially saying the count is 31.
At the end of this episode I am less inclined to be charitable with Brian Hales. What he's committed to print, & what he said in his Mormon Stories interviews years ago is evidence of his own perjury- unless he wants to apologize for those areass where he contradicts himself in his attempt to defend the the repugnant history of Joseph Smith Jr.
Great episode! A word on the "Williams". At approx 1:16:45 Gerardo asks about the still sealed journals of William McLellin. Dan Vogel cites all his journals are published. I believe Gerardo was actually referring to the journals of William Clayton which may indeed have sealed journals in the church's possession. Can anyone confirm this?
An hour in, Brian Hale discredits Oliver Cowder and Emma’s Smiths view on the affair with Fanny on the basis that they didn’t stay active in the church. That’s sickening. But in other cases they’ll use their testimonies in their defense, so which is it? Don’t trust Oliver and Emma or trust their argument?
Great, great program. I noted that a lot of times, guests used the past tense to speak about Mormon polygamy. And yet as the popular show Sister Wives shows (and the AUB, the Alleed group etc etc) polygamy is alive and well in the United States, Canada and South America. You are inspiring me to write about these women and to really show their feelings. The pain is palpable and there is no excuse for the Mormon church to excuse it. Thing is, if the Prophet is a horrible man, the foundation he created is also horrible. Do you think the extreme secual purity culture in the LDS church is related to its history with polygamy?
Just love you all. Yeah, no, the church doesn’t buy the whole commanding angel angle now days. I told the stake president that an angel with a SUPER flaming sword appeared to me and commanded that I HAD to be gay, or he’d run me through. On that fortuitous day, I told the angel that both he and God were in luck, and certainly blessed, cause I woke up gay again today! So I didn’t know why I was being excommunicated. That’s what we called it in those days when we had angels, excommunication. Back then, sacrament meeting was longer than a flaming sword. Whew! Pseudo Polyandry. I was on the edge of my seat hoping Dan would validate John and say “cucked”! But no, Always a gentleman. It was F L A M I N G, the sword.
I tried unsuccessfully to convince my dissertation adviser that Monday was my Sabbath, but I didn't think to try the angel with a flaming sword gambit. He was a devout Orthodox Jew (kept a prayer book and a yarmulke handy in the lab in case he couldn't get home by sundown on Friday) but no dummy.
People need to understand that it's a common trauma response for a person to take ownership of said trauma. It makes them feel in charge, rather than a victim
3:32:36 It’s the same thing the church says about everything! Endure to the end whether you’re suffering or not and in the next life everything will be better. Live now for the next life. Don’t take into consideration how you feel right now at all! Don’t listen to Satan (which is really your own intuition). These are not the droids you’re looking for. Ignore the man behind the curtain. Etc etc etc.
As many have said before, the polygamy was one thing, but the lying is on another level. It’s pathetic. On a side note. I’ve been reading and watching a lot of videos on the polygamy denial movement and I have to say that it’s very compelling. There seems to have been an early and concerted effort by Brigham Young and his squad to prove JS was a polygamist. They went so far as to falsify and forge documents, journals and affidavits. The more you learn the deeper the rabbit hole goes. It’s hard to know anything for 100% certain, but if I had to throw my coins in for one side or the other, I’d probably say that he wasn’t a polygamist.
Please bring Sandra on all the time. She really cuts through the bs. Love you, Sandra!
This is my first Sandra exposure and I love her! I remember when I first heard about her she was labeled as a devil and that was way out in the Ky hills! None of us (faithful members)knew her at all. I feel such shame.
@erinhimes7057 😱 this is your first Sandra experience, I’m almost jealous that you now get to watch all her interviews for the first time. She’s one of my favourite humans & I was never even Mormon. I think I first saw her on Christian TH-cam a decade ago.
Sandra is the absolute queen 👸🏼
A man of authority isn’t “having sex with” or “having an affair with” a 14 yr old. It’s rape.
And why are we assuming the wives want Joseph’s “sexual attention?”
THANK YOU. We need to say it like it is!
It's not a sin when God tells you it's okay. Besides everybody was doing it back then!
Thank you for this comment. Let's call it what it is.
I just love Sandra. She expresses complex ideas so easily. She's also funny! More Sandra!!! 💙💙💙
Dan Vogel and Sandra Tanner are always welcome!!!
Love seeing Sandra on the episodes. She cuts through the crap and gets right to the point!
POLYANDRY: When the movie “Paint Your Wagon” came out in 1969, there was a discussion in the hall of Logan High School regarding the film's portrayal of polyandry. A woman, who was a Mormon Sister-Wife, ends up being “sold” to two men, and she carries on as if she is married to both. No one in the hall that day had heard the word “Polyandry” until I said it. When I explained what it meant, no one believed me. They didn’t think it had ever happened. Even after I gave a lecture on the Ancient Minoan Culture on Crete being Goddess-based, female-led, and practicing Polyandry, they told me I “made that up," It "wasn’t true," had "never happened anywhere," and the idea was “sickening.” This came from the GIRLS! It was extraordinary when half of them, at least, had polygamist ancestors. I knew I did! I mentioned that, and the consensus was a scandalized: “It isn’t the same thing at all!” People are SO strange!
Fascinating @winniecross4579 . Are you a professor by chance?
It was shocking to hear Brian saying that men would be jealous to share same wife/ polyandry but somehow women sharing same husband is ok🙄
I agree, funny how he didn’t hear the double standard as it came out of his mouth!
if you look at most lds men they are androgynous due to I believe having their territorial instincts blunted by the show of superiority by superior leaders... fake alphas that can only kicked dogs... so polyandry wouldn't be a problem for them if it was taught as coming from god
Sandra is my favorite, she brings such good humor
Tremendous episode, on a particularly important topic, with a very knowledgeable panel. Sandra is a gem! Bring her on as often as possible.
About Joseph Smith being a narcissist and using polygamy as a power move, Dan Vogel says, “The more shameful things he can make his followers do, the more he gets off as a narcissist.”
It sounds like Diddy.
"Why aren't [church officials] proud of these women?" That's such a good mic drop. For real?! Why aren't the names of these "elect ladies" of the early church widely known. It's almost like the church doesn't want it to be widely known Joseph had upwards of 50 wives, according to the gospel topic essay on polygamy. 30 is a low estimate.
This was my first thought when I read the GTE on polygamy. Why didn't I know their names as a life long member? Why was their sacrifice not important enough to name them? I started looking for their names and down the rabbit hole I went. 😢
Zeke, thank you for your vulnerability in being on this interview. "Whether it hurts or not, truth is truth." - exactly right! That's a hard pill to swallow sometimes.
I'm firmly convinced that knowing JS did this behind Emma's back would be enough to know this is deeply problematic. It's incredibly disrespectful. CES letters may be trying to justify JS actions but it's just going to reinforce how painful and disturbing polygamy was and is
I wish Zeke all the best, and his unwinding is accompanied by friends and peace.❤
Before there was P Diddy, there was J Smitty
J smitty is crazy hahaha
Omg 😂😂😂😂😂😂👌🏼
🤣 haha!
Oh my god the way this made me laugh out loud 😭🤣
Lolll
What a powerhouse panel for this! I grew up Mormon, I’ve been watching MSP for over 2 years without missing an episode and binged the backlog and I learned a lot of new stuff in this episode.
By the way Zeke, I excommunicated the LDS church when I was almost 70 years old. That was 10 years ago, so I'm up there with Sandra Tanner! You're amongst friends. Love from Granny D in South Africa 🇿🇦❤
Come back Granny D. We need you!
@@shanejensen8484I doubt she’s coming back to a church that is and has been run by liars. The leaders of the Mormon church should be absolutely ashamed for what they have done. They have not only intentionally hid the truth of so many issues like polygamy, they have also excommunicated numerous members for seeking out and exposing those truths.
Maybe if the church wants members to come back they should start with a full and accurate accounting of those members they excommunicated (who were right btw) and get on their self-righteous knees and apologize. AND…they should set the record straight and acknowledge what they have hid.
So what would Granny D or anyone else be coming back to? It’s sure as hell not the truth. It sure as hell is not a church run by ethical or moral men. Even to this day they still lie and obfuscate and hide (investment scandal). Btw…they do so because of their Second Anointing that allows them to “lie for the Lord.”
I need y'all to understand how much I love Sandra. It has taken me three days to get through this episode because of my lack of time, but everytime I watch and Sandra talks, I love her more. She is so smart and sassy and just everything.-
Every time I catch a Sandra Tanner interview or hear one of her talks on mormon history, it blesses my heart. I've been a fan of hers since seeing "The God Makers" which came out about 40yrs ago. She's been a thorn in the side of the church since the mid 1900s. Lover her ❤ ♥
Many women even today don’t report sexual harassment or assault for fear of shaming and not being believed. Joseph had all the power and these women had none. In the nineteenth century scandal was always harder on the woman. Look what happened to Fanny.
As a therapist treating religious scrupulosity in Utah county I’m sickened by Brian Hales assertion that Joseph Smith was always worthy!the church’s doctrine is constantly beating people over the head for much less than we know. Joseph Smith did😮 great episode. Thank you so much for all of your work.
This episode series is huge. Keep it up. Bringing people like Dan on is awesome.
Just finishing up this episode today and I have to say, if Brian Hales is lying to himself imo he knows it and justifies it. The panel was way too generous with their assessment of his motives. John, you nailed it. Protecting the church at ALL cost is the apologist only purpose. Twisting, obfuscating, leaving out pertinent facts of a narrative, to make things sound better are all forms of lying.
Brian Hales and all other apologists KNOW it! 😤
I believe it’s called lying for the lord…ugh!
So grateful for this episode and for your informative guests!
It's such a raw feeling realizing that as a child, trusted grown ups were teaching me to sing "Praise To The Man"; as I learn the truth about that man, I feel sick realizing what and who we were actually praising in reality.
I'm SO grateful I have free access to empowering information compared to those pioneers who had no knowledge and thus were vulnerable.
I thought Julia's discussion at 2:37:04 of the distinction between adultery and fornication was brilliant.
Dan Vogel is the world’s foremost expert on Joseph Smith. Full stop. I’m not one to fawn over celebrities at all, but if I ever met Dan, I’d be awe struck and probably have to ask for a picture. Which he would hate. Love and appreciate you Dan for helping untold numbers deconstruct their years of brainwashing regarding Joseph smith and the bom.
Yes the destruction of this story is still damaging today. I’ve been married 20 years and have 4 beautiful kids and a 18 year firefighter paramedic. I found all the fraud and couldn’t betray my core values and tried to tell these things to my wife and she divorced me. She chose these beliefs over the security of the kids and her family. I have saved the lives of countless people and have had my retirement ruined over this story and narrative. Also my own mother shunned me during all this too.
I'm so sorry you've had to go through that painful experience 😢 Thank you for your heroic work in this world🙏🏼⛑️❤
I’m sorry-the stigma of divorce is hard snd the reality is hard on spouses and kids. I hope she can see your efforts and your family experiences some healing seeing everyone’s efforts and good intentions
3:28:41 Not true! My grandfather divorced his first wife (my grandmother) and was still “sealed” to her. He then married his second wife and was sealed to her! He was sealed to two LIVING women although he was only legally married to the one after divorcing my grandma.
An amazing and brilliant group. Thank you, all!
Fantastic episode!❤❤❤ When I “grow up” I hope I am as switched on as Sandra. Dan is simply brilliant! Great collaboration!
I’m curious what the apologist response is to why a “spiritual marriage” would be necessary? I was taught my whole life that the only reason for polygamy was due to low numbers of men due to wars, death crossing the plains, disease, etc. and the only way Zion could be established would be to have more children, so one man would marry multiple women. If this was indeed the case, wouldn’t a “spiritual marriage” be completely superfluous?
Also, why couldn’t the married/sealed women that Joseph married in polyandrous relationships be able to be sealed to their actual husbands? Is their sealing not sufficient?
Zeke, thanks for whatever service you provided on your service mission, something to be proud of whatever changes in your beliefs going forward.
Holy Crow! What amazing guests! Love your work, John! This podcast has helped me in so many ways! In gratitude... 😔🙏✝️🇺🇲🎻♥️
You cannot understand how this crushes me.
I rarely bring anything up about the truths about the church to my family
Especially my oldest sister. I think it would kill her if she realized how messed up this so called religion is.
I understood at a young age. I don't know why. It was bs.
“The truths about the church”? or your misinformed/misunderstandings about the church.
@@shanejensen8484
You understood. The truths about the church.
I understand, it crushed me too. Finding out what the people involved said in letters and journals broke my heart. I cried so much for them.
@@shanejensen8484You knew what they meant, Shane. Don’t be daft.
The ironic thing is only those members of the church trying to defend it’s indefensible position are the ones that are misinformed and cling to misinformation constantly propagated by the church. Remember, doubt your doubts. And seek not counsel from unbelievers. You literally remove yourselves from critical thought when your leaders tell you what you can and cannot read or what sources of information is or is not true.
You, as so many members do, and as I once did, remind me of 1984. Doublethink is a real issue with active members. But that’s not surprising as you’ll reject any factual evidence or data backed up with a solid logical argument because you have a “testimony that the church is true.”
“Orthodoxy means not thinking--not needing to think. Orthodoxy is unconsciousness.” WAKE UP!
@@Isabella-nd3rq I’m trolling? That’s actually funny. Why don’t you watch without all your anti buddy’s commentary. Just listen.
As a long-time listener & never mormon, several points made today, combined with previously learned doctine, really makes it seem like Joseph Smith was just a garden variety cult leader that surprised himself with his success & even he never actually believed any of this. More pointedly, Emma never believed Joseph's stories & more likely just determined that being 1st wife to the leader was better for her, regardless of his philandering.
...and Emma wrote the BOM
Dan, Julia, and Sandra know more about church history than the entire quorums of the 12 and 70s combined!
What a fantastic panel! What a treat! Thank you everyone!
Perhaps the oddest thing for me to see here is the fact that when Brian Hales was interviewed by John Dehlin in a three part series concerning his polygamy books he spoke with certainty that Josephine Lyon was Joseph's biological daughter. There was too much evidence to that fact. The church DNA studies were conducted after that interview concluding Josephine wasn't biologically related to Joseph Smith Jr. Brian Hales had to change his story. What we're really seeing is his apologetic double speak, and confirmation biased reading of the data to always put Joseph Smith Jr. in the best possible light. Just like Kerry Muhlstein admitted to with his Apologetics concerning the Book of Abraham. It's no wonder we have in public record now a lawyer representing the Church in tithing lawsuit that Church history is 1st amendment protected free speech & not necessarily authentic, vetted history. The church doesn't want to have to put its billions on the line for "authentic history" because in that bet, they lose and lose big.
This episode was explosive to me 🧨💥 I was raised LDS (in Denmark and Sweden), knew about the polygamy of the early "leaders" but learned so many disturbing new facts in this discussion/analysis.
I had no idea just how wicked and manipulative it all was, the foundation of Mormonism.
I'm so glad to be out of the cult but so so sad and honestly ashamed to have been a part of it. I feel such remorse over my mission, promoting and persuading people into this mess of a belief system.
Can anyone relate?😢
Lots of love and gratitude to today's panel, it was stellar🌟✨🙏🏼❤️
I am Agnostic, but I love learning about Mormon culture/doctrinal drama.
As someone who has had to do investigations related to "conduct unbecoming," and as a psychologist, my perception is the JS polygamy and polyandry is primarily an abuse of power (especially the humiliation of the husbands), but libido/sex also is a part of the equation. I'll listen to arguments about equality of sexes when women can have multiple husbands in eternity, just as the men supposedly can.
FYI - Brian was in the Tab choir, he is retired, I was his first wife and married to him for 21 years, Laura was his second wife, and he is remarried to Janis, who is a wonderful person. I am no longer a believer and I am remarried to the most wonderful person. 😊 I would conclude him to be a fanatical Mormon. He is the father of my children. Enough said.
Thanks for sharing. Upvoted
Poor Emma. My heart hurts for her.😢
She married a cheat in every sense of the word passing himself off as a prophet of god. Despicable!
I was always taught it only existed to help the widows- why you have to marry and have sex to help a widow is beyond me- and only about 8 percent even practiced it.
Zeke's dumbfounded reactions are pretty on point and exactly how one should react to the insanity.
I noticed that the apologist had his arms folded in front of him while he was explaining the current Mormon doctrine of polygamy in heaven. He was clearly uncomfortable. I enjoyed watching him squirm because so much of what he said triggered me. He is part of the corrupt system imo.
“High demand or cult religions.” I appreciate the language that this channel uses to frame its discussions. I think it’s the best way to frame all of this.
Great episode. Thank you all for always bringing the truth to light!
I absolutely love how Zeke is gobsmacked about almost everything. His silence is so audibly obvious.
3:15:25 “The worst lies are the ones we tell ourselves”. Anyone holding on to the truth claims of the church have a serious problem with this…
Dame Sandra❤❤❤❤
I absolutely love Sandra and would love more of her but I'm sure she's so tired of this
Sandra Tanner rocks! I love learning about how organizations manipulate information to control others. It makes it easier to identify the techniques in other areas of life.
I don’t think I can ever say the word “transaction “ again….
This was fascinating, but I had to watch it in short bursts as Brian Hales’ silver-tongued lies and obfuscations really began to grate and set my teeth on edge. Thank goddess Sandra was there as a reality check, and that John and Gerardo were there keeping it all in perspective and not mincing words. Zeke’s reactions are priceless, and a bit heartbreaking to watch.
I grew up in the 80s in Chile, I came from a culturally rich environment and we used to pass by the Mormon church, we were a catholic family so it was new to me, so I asked my mom about this religion and she told me all about Joseph Smith and how it was his creation to earn money and to have a lot of spouses, so I went to the library and search on the encyclopedia more information because it was fascinating how a man could convince so many people and get soooo rich, because the temple here is huge so I assumed that it was a lot of money involved. Later when I was a teenager I learned that blond hair kids in poor neighborhoods were called Mormon children, because girls tricked Mormon missionaries in to sex to have a blonde child
Interesting! However, religieus institutions becoming rich is not an exception. The Catholic Church you mention is the same. The Catholic Church sold indulgence/indulgentia to the people as a way to have their sins forgiven. Muslims have to pay to visit the Kaaba, etc.
As I recall, the gospel topic article about polygamy states that the Church has no official record of all of Joseph Smith's marriages. What's the difference between unrecorded marriages and fornication? The double standards in the church are endless.
Classic obfuscation. The early church didn’t keep the same type of records as they do today. No surprise since they were a small group constantly on the run. However, they have plenty of evidence from contemporary letters, journals etc to confirm the general nature of Smith’s actions. But since they don’t have “official records” they can pretend that evidence doesn’t count.
Yeah, try that in a bishop interview: “I wasn’t breaking the law of chastity, it was just an unrecorded marriage!”
I think my original comment was deleted; I said the church could obfuscate re. “official records” while knowing about evidence of JS’’s polygamy.
Joey Smith’s Polyandry was the precursor to swinging on mom talk.
I love Sandra Tanner!!!
She is a rock star to be sure!
Fantastic panel! Love the intellectual rigor as well as the humor. Julia, you are worthy of a PhD in history if you don’t already have one.
John, I forgot to mention, I thought it was really great that you challenged those two marines about how they felt about Girardo 🙏🏾
If Joseph only married already married women for eternity only, why did Brigham marry Zina after Joseph's death?
I am stunned by Susan Tanner's point of why doesn't the LDS church honor these faithful servants of God (Joseph's plural wives) who went against public opinion to marry Joseph Smith. I never thought of it this way before. I was taught that although Joseph did practice polygamy, (I never knew any estimated number) he never had any children, meaning he did not have sex. I believed he was the only one who did not have sex with his plural wives even though his contemporaries were! My daughter recently pointed out to me why do I immediately defend Joseph by saying he didn't have sex with them? She made a good point. Susan's and my daughter's points have me rethinking about all this polygamy stuff.
This Brian guy is so flippant. He doesn't seem to care one bit about Emma. The behavior by Joseph and friends to deceive Emma is so disgusting . Im starting to really not care for this Brian guy. He is obviously well educated but what a waste of a soul.
Helen Mar Kimball : THEY DECEIVED ME. As they did all of us, sweet girl. 😢
💔
At time code 2:39:58 it's interesting how he refers to women as resources. That's exactly how the Latter-day Saints see women. Not as people but as resources and the higher up you are in the organization the more "resources" you get.
If Breed 'em Young had 52 wives on earth, then how many more do you think he'd have picked up by now in heaven? 🤔
I have never heard anyone ever comment on how these men could support all these wives and especially Brigham Young with so many children? It’s hard enough even today with just one wife and most of them have to work outside the home. And yet, in spite of Young’s huge families he died a multimillionaire, How did that happen.?
Sandra is amazing. I can’t believe that she’s 83 😮! I would never have known if there had not shared that at the end truly.
John, quick feedback - Dan's voice sounded lower than everyone else's, I had a bit of trouble hearing him whenever he spoke. It would've been great if his volume was higher so to match everything else.
Wonderful episode ❤
Anyone know who is that individual CES director is that Jeremy wrote the original letter to? I’d like to follow up to see how that director reacts currently to current events.
So good thank you. I’m dying on the Fanny Alger apologetics!
😢 😢😮😊 26:45 😢😢😮 28:23 😢 28:20 😢😢🎉 28:21 😢 28:21 😢😢🎉 27:4😢😢😢ª 28:33 😢 28:33 😢Microsoft 😢😢😢😢28:28 28:28 😢9 2😢 28:25🎉😢🎉 7:47 27:43 😅😅😅😅😅😅😅😮😢😊😊😅😮😊 28:19 🎉 28:20 28:20 28:20 😮😊 27:48 27:48 😅😅😅😅😢😅😢😊 27:41 27:49 😅 27:40 😊😢!!😢😢😢 27:13 🎉😊 27:13 27:13 ! 27:13 27:13 😢 27:15😢 😢 27 27:26 :16 2 😢😢 27:4🎉4 27:44 28:30 😢😢27:43 😢7 28:01 28:01 :16 😢😢😢😅😅😊😢😢😅😅😅🎉 27:51 😊😅 27:52 27:52😢😢🎉!😢 27:52 😢 27:53 27:5😢😢 27:54 😢 27:54 27:54 3 27:53 😢 27:53 😅 27:1 27:26 27 a4a4a3a a😢 28:35 a5😢😢 27:55 :27 1😢 😢😅 28:02😢😢 28:09 😢 28:10 😢😢 28:02 😢a4c 😅😮😢😢🎉😅 28:15 😢😢😢 28:16 😢😢 28:16 😢 28:16 😢 28:36 28:36 😢😢 28:17 😢 28:18 😢 28:18 😢 27:55 26:37 😢😊😢🎉 28:12 28:12 28:18 😢😢 28:13 😢 28:14 😢 28:14 28:14 !😢😢😢😢 28:15 😅😅😅😅 27:28 😅😢!😅😅😅😅😮😢😅😮😅 27:55 😢😅😢😮😅😅😢😢🎉😅😢 😢26:53 😢😮😅😅😅😅😅😅😅😢😅😅😢😢😅a 27:29 😢😅😊😅😮😅😊😅😅😮😅😮 27:29 27:29 😢😢😢 27:30 😢😅😢😅😅😅😅😅😅😅😅😅😢😅😢😢😅😅😅😅😅😢😢😅😅😅😅😅😅😅😅😢😢😢 27:24 😢😅😮😢😅😅😅😅😅😮😢😅🎉😢😢 27:😢😢😢 27:36 27:36 1🎉9 😢 27:19 27:19 !a😢😢 27:22 27:21 27:22 🎉 27:22 😢😅😅😮😢😮😅😅😢😅😢😢😅😅😅😮😅😅😅😅😢😅😢😢😅😅😢 27:06 27:07 27:08 😢🎉😢 27:09 🎉😅😊😅😊😅😅😅😅😊😅😊😅😅😅😅😅😢😅😮😢😅😊😢😅😮😅😅😊😮😅😅😅😮😅😅😢😅😅😅😅😅😅😅😅😅😅😅😅😅😅😅😅😅😅😅😅😅😅😊😢😊😊😢😢😢😅😢😅😢😅😅😊😅😅😅😅😅😢😅😅😅😊😊😢😅😮😅😅😅😅😅😅😊😊😊😅😢😊😊😅😊😮😢😅😅😮 26:30 😢😅😮😅😢😅😢😅😅😊😅😅😮😮😅😅 26:20 😅😅😅😅😅😅😅😅😅😊😅😅😅😅😢😢😅😮😊😅😅😅😅😅😅😢😅😢😅😊😮😅😢😮😅😮😅😊😅😅😅😅😅😅😅😅😅😮😢😅😮😅😮😅😅😮😅😅😅😅😅😮😅😅😊😅😅😅😮😅😅😅😢😊
Joseph Smith = P. Diddy
What great episode! beautiful and bright guests, super interesting, from a a never Mormon woman. What I appreciate the most is to do this to support Jeremy Runnels who is a great human being. Love it! Invite everyone again I would love to see more.
I had a look at the comments in the Brian Hales podcast. Not many people are buying his apologetics.
John I was disturbed to find out the recent Temple wording changes for women are even more pro-polygamy as covered by the youtube channel Reasons To Rescind 👀💔
Zeke, thanks for your service. Seek info from all sources. My wager is that if your motivation is neutral and you’re open minded, you’ll land in a good spot. Like they all say many times, “ I think, we think…”. Opinions aren’t facts. We support those that support our agenda.
How can I order The CES Letter? It’s not on Amazon 😢.
Cesletter.org
I appreciate your "rants" John!!
Sandra - Joseph turned heaven into a freak show. Best comment of all the eternities.
What is a "service mission"? How is it different from the proselytizing missionaries?
“Joe Smith, The Reluctant Polygamist” is why I love Dan Vogel. Sniping bad apologetics out of the sky.
SUCH a great episode!!! THANK YOU.
Often could barely hear Zeke 🙁
I absolutely love Sandra. Complex story? Sandra will cut through the BS in 3 sentences. I only miss her magic rock. That was epic😂
Brian lied again when he stated that “…a man can be sealed to more than one wife in the temple today as long as the other wives are deceased.” This is not true. I’m divorced but never got a temple divorce. I recently received a letter from my x-husband’s bishop asking for my permission to allow him to be sealed to his new wife. They’re married legally but not sealed in the temple. Obviously I’m not dead!
I looked up JS on family search, and he has listed (on his read only profile) 31 wives (including Emma). Interesting nugget. I would call that the church officially saying the count is 31.
Family Search is maintained by the people who use it. I find lots of mistakes.
Great job, thank you for your hard work.
At the end of this episode I am less inclined to be charitable with Brian Hales. What he's committed to print, & what he said in his Mormon Stories interviews years ago is evidence of his own perjury- unless he wants to apologize for those areass where he contradicts himself in his attempt to defend the the repugnant history of Joseph Smith Jr.
The internet is blank about Brian Hales new wife! No dates or info! What is he hiding?
@1:25:30 hmmm- I dint even like the term affair. At the very least it seems to me like it’s spiritual/sexual abuse.
Great episode! A word on the "Williams". At approx 1:16:45 Gerardo asks about the still sealed journals of William McLellin. Dan Vogel cites all his journals are published. I believe Gerardo was actually referring to the journals of William Clayton which may indeed have sealed journals in the church's possession. Can anyone confirm this?
An hour in, Brian Hale discredits Oliver Cowder and Emma’s Smiths view on the affair with Fanny on the basis that they didn’t stay active in the church. That’s sickening. But in other cases they’ll use their testimonies in their defense, so which is it? Don’t trust Oliver and Emma or trust their argument?
Great, great program. I noted that a lot of times, guests used the past tense to speak about Mormon polygamy. And yet as the popular show Sister Wives shows (and the AUB, the Alleed group etc etc) polygamy is alive and well in the United States, Canada and South America. You are inspiring me to write about these women and to really show their feelings. The pain is palpable and there is no excuse for the Mormon church to excuse it. Thing is, if the Prophet is a horrible man, the foundation he created is also horrible. Do you think the extreme secual purity culture in the LDS church is related to its history with polygamy?
Just love you all. Yeah, no, the church doesn’t buy the whole commanding angel angle now days. I told the stake president that an angel with a SUPER flaming sword appeared to me and commanded that I HAD to be gay, or he’d run me through. On that fortuitous day, I told the angel that both he and God were in luck, and certainly blessed, cause I woke up gay again today! So I didn’t know why I was being excommunicated. That’s what we called it in those days when we had angels, excommunication. Back then, sacrament meeting was longer than a flaming sword.
Whew! Pseudo Polyandry.
I was on the edge of my seat hoping Dan would validate John and say “cucked”! But no, Always a gentleman.
It was F L A M I N G,
the sword.
That's super brilliant! 😂
I tried unsuccessfully to convince my dissertation adviser that Monday was my Sabbath, but I didn't think to try the angel with a flaming sword gambit. He was a devout Orthodox Jew (kept a prayer book and a yarmulke handy in the lab in case he couldn't get home by sundown on Friday) but no dummy.
People need to understand that it's a common trauma response for a person to take ownership of said trauma. It makes them feel in charge, rather than a victim
3:32:36 It’s the same thing the church says about everything! Endure to the end whether you’re suffering or not and in the next life everything will be better. Live now for the next life. Don’t take into consideration how you feel right now at all! Don’t listen to Satan (which is really your own intuition). These are not the droids you’re looking for. Ignore the man behind the curtain. Etc etc etc.
This is mow denied by several podcasters....insane...😢😢😢
I love this entire cast!!!!
I'm wondering if I know Brian Hales. Can anyone tell me where he is from? As in where he grew up?
JS keeping polygamy from Emma is what broke my shelf. The God I believed in wouldn't do that to Emma.
As many have said before, the polygamy was one thing, but the lying is on another level. It’s pathetic.
On a side note. I’ve been reading and watching a lot of videos on the polygamy denial movement and I have to say that it’s very compelling. There seems to have been an early and concerted effort by Brigham Young and his squad to prove JS was a polygamist. They went so far as to falsify and forge documents, journals and affidavits. The more you learn the deeper the rabbit hole goes.
It’s hard to know anything for 100% certain, but if I had to throw my coins in for one side or the other, I’d probably say that he wasn’t a polygamist.