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The ball joint at 13.30 is just a stock NMB ABYT10 high mis-alignment stainless steel bearing with a different code etched on it to cover the pressed in spacers at each end (which you can get out and re-use by the way), Hill are most likely ripping you off a wee bit on this one but their prices are certainly not extortionate unlike Ferrari's. They definately should not be greased with Moly grease as yours look to be as that does attack the PTFE lining and greatly reduces the life of that segment of the bearing, leading to knocking. Sadly this is just spherical bearing life and some Ferrari geometry is questionable to say the least so they will be eaten in no time at all, especially if proper seals are not used to keep grit out. Someone elese also mentioned the likely cure in the comments, and thats to ignore the Ferrari torque specs and just use a bit of FT on all the bolts or regularly re-torque the bolts (shouldn't be needed I know, but Ferraris are NOT well engineered cars). The other point that may also help is making some new spacer inserts that are tighter to the bolts but the higher torque should prevent the slip that may cause knocking.
Sorry, thinking of DU bushes there which use a lead/ptfe combo but adding grease to a ptfe lined bearing generally just makes a nice grinding paste that destroys the PTFE in double quick time.
I honestly will put $100 down that the sound comes back. I’ve done literally all of this as well on my CS, and the sound came right back. Only way to fix it seems to be tightening the lower shock nuts that seem to loosen every couple hundred miles. So strange. I heard there is a newer style bolt and also the torque specs were increased to 80 by Ferrari themselves because of this issue. I hope I’m wrong for you though, so good luck!
The engineers actually resorted to using glue to hold ball joints in place... I mean, that's a pretty dire engineering choice for a wear component. Very Italian though, I guess.
@@Beer_Dad1975 it’s not a bad idea and it works. Just have to actually use the glue and do it right. One reason is so they can be pressed in and out as needed without wearing down the material in the arm itself. Seems dumb, but….RACE CAR. LOL
Thread locker but most don't prepare the threads correctly. 😅 I'm guessing the bigger issue is is that Ferrari used aluminum control arms with steel ball joint studs. And as you drive along, the still simply compresses or machines away the aluminum and you're right back to where you started. So the only way to correctly fix it would be to drill out the hole and install a steel sleeve and then bolt it all back together again lmfao
Aren't rose joints primarily used on race cars hence wearing quickly and are frequently replaced. I see why they used it on the Scuderia but if someone does not know that, it tends to become a nuisance.
@@julianevans9548They simply don’t. It’s previous owners and garages not maintaining them. I’ve had three Ferraris of various ages. Whilst they’ve not been perfect they’ve never once let me down. Remember the newest Scud will be 14 now.
@@julianevans9548Not always. My 328 was quite well built. I agree the newer cars are overly complicated and have too many weak spots. Why should a Hill Engineering bearing be superior to Ferrari OEM? Regardless, I’ve gone back to classic Porsches and am loving these. Not cheap to maintain, but overall a quality machine.
Just to clarify those are rose joints, which, although are use on road cars ( high performance ) are really only used and mean for on race cars because they wear out quickly. 👍 great video as always for explaining the ownership experience
My Mercedes S211 and my BMW e46 have rose/heim joints on on the back as standard. People confuse the two terms, but I think technically a ball joint has to be a ball and stud, like a track rod end. A rose joint is like a ball bearing with a hole in the middle that then the fastener goes through. They usually have a boot over them (both sides) and are greased. A ball joint only has one boot.
Ignorant question here - is it normal for them to be glued in? That seems a bit crap to me - from my vague recollection of mechanical engineering at university, it's like they couldn't be bothered doing a tapered interference fit...
@adogmcdizzle Not that it makes any difference, but I have heard a Heim joint refered to by the more generic term, spherical rod end. A rose joint is not a term I have ever heard used here in the USA, which is not surprising due to the differing nomenclature our two countries enjoy.
Great video. I've owned a Ferrari for over 15 years. My F355 has 26 service stamps, either from Ferrari or the 'best' specialists. Over the years I've been billed for stuff they've just not replaced, like plugs or just not done at all. I recently had the throttle linkages stripped and done properly locally by a none Ferrari specialist who just 'cared'. Transformed it. I must have asked Ferrari four times to sort it. They either said it was the carpet, or they squirted some oil on it. They take the piss mate sometimes sadly.
I used to work developing linkrods and ball joints for automotive suspension assemblies, its extremely rare that a ball joint does not have extra lubrication added to it, PTFE is self lubricant, yes, but its not enough by itself in any high load aplication. Granted, you might have had the wrong type of lubricant put on it adding to your issue rather than lessen it. The damage you've shown, specially in the corroded ball joint, is more of an indicative of water + debris ingress into the rubber boot/cover, and you wouldnt believe how extremely expensive and labour + knowledge intensive it is to develop one of those rubber boots to be watertight, as in companies can easyly go bankrupt when OEMs come to do warranty claims after a failed design goes into a car.
Spot on with your Point but for me the Main issue is that Ball joint from Ferrari is Mild Steel with Chrome Vanadium. As you've stated any water/dirt ingress is going to pit them and then corrosion will just destroy them. Also if the car is sitting still for a long duration the ball joints will have the full weight of the car on them and will eventually the chrome will just cracked and self destruct. These joints Ferrari have used are for Race use only and will be replaced every race or every other. Also Ball joints really need lubricating with either a PTFE grease or spray which should br done Regularly, this is what I did with the Race Car I had, although they had no covers, which as well as lubricated them it also cleaned them!! If Ferrari are going to put racing parts on a Road Car they need to make the parts so they don't corrode, are properly sealed and can be lubricated every 2k otherwise every Ferrari owner will go through what Jay is going through!!
Interesting. Some products are easy for the aftermarket to copy. Some are not. Cycle chains are an example. Aftermarket ones wear very quickly. But cassettes and chain rings and cycle disc pads are fine.
@@markwalton8644 These cars typically do low mileage and customers kind of expect bills. Ferrari exploit them though. Same way they get people to buy multiple cars before they sell some models. Or cut off journos from early scoup tests cars if they give a bad review. No way would a Japanese company do any of that. Why I prefer their cars! Ferrari is over marketed. I like the style and the passion, but is it worth it? Only if you are mega rich!
@@andrewnorris5415 I agree, it's why even though 90% of Petrol heads lust after a Ferrari watching Jayemm's experience of Ferraris would put me off. His Ferraris have spent 95% of their time in a Garage racking up large Bills with part prices quadrupled and not lasting 5 minutes because the parts aren't up to the job. That to me would be so frustrating!! Any other Garage you'd be going back to the Garage and complaining that the parts fitted to the car weren't upto the job and should be fixed with parts which will at least a 1000 miles. I hope James sorts his cars but I'm not Sure James's patience will last much longer as he likes to drive his Cars and not have them sitting in a Garage.
Enjoy your videos. An expensive sports car is usually purchased to enjoy and have fun with. Your video shows that your experience appears it isn't an enjoyable one, more like a stressful one that's verging on OCD. I'd have outed that car a while ago. I had a GT86 for a couple of years and when that kept me going back to the garage too regularly I outed it. Stress gone.
I oftem muse about adding a Ferrari to my 100 car ownership history, which presently has most makes covered, but nothing from Ferrari. Then I watch one of your videos. 😄😄
Hello James. Even though both my financial position and the lack of desire for such vehicles mean I'll never own a supercar (Jags & Bentleys are my limit), I find the way you tell the story of your trials and tribulations of trying to fix your suspension woes utterly fascinating: informative & entertaining. However, I hope you've now cracked it.
Love looking at Ferraris - Love owning and driving my 2018 Ford Mustang GT Premium, 460 horse power, V8, six speed manual. Five plus years & 60,000+ miles of driving pleasure. Everything works as intended. Maintenance, full synthetic oil change every 5,000 miles, all fluids changed at 60,000 miles, four new tires at 50,000 miles, new battery after four years. Anticipate many more years of trouble free driving. Happy motoring from Texas, USA 🇺🇸
Thanks for the update James. I'd always thought that if I ever had the money for a Scuderia then it would be on my shopping list. But now I think I'd look for something else if my lottery numbers ever come up. Those kind of problems must be very frustrating, and spoil the enjoyment of the car.
I picked up an 2005 F430 in 2018. Within 30 days of ownership it had developed a gearbox issue, that took 9 months to get sorted. The dealer (Ferrari of Ontario) was stand-up and repaired the issues at not cost to me. Turned out to be gearbox actuator Since then I've also had to replace ball joints, engine mounts, F1 solonoids, a toe rod, carbon ceramic pad and have a full brake service, probably an average of 10k CAD per year for servicing (7.5k USD). That being said the F430 is one the most engaging and fun to drive cars my stable. That V8 and analog connection is utterly intoxicating. With new PS4S tyres, exhaust remote and a Scuderia alignment it's better then the day it left the factory 👌
Well you succesfully covinced me to never buy a 430 Scuderia James. But you did open my eyes to the Citroen C5. Unlike the Ferrari, I might even be able to afford that one.
James is doing a real public service, its made my Porsche servicing costs seem very reasonable. Fingers crossed you are able to resolve this issue asap.
To grease any type of open bearing is a sign of shortened life. Micro grits get in, mixes with the grease and act’s as a perfect grinding paste. It may be race car derived but it’s a good example of ‘mean time between failure’ being designed into a road car.
Had the car been service at Ferrari, presumably the glue would have been applied as per the service schedule, and there wouldn’t have been any issues? I love the fact that Jay is always upfront on the financial reality of owning an ageing exotic . It’s a real commitment if you earning under £100k / year
Thank you for sharing this. Although I Do not own a Ferrari, the experience of paying a lot to still have an issue is universal. Hopefully your video helpt some 430 owners.
Hi James, I had this noise on a BMW from the back. We went crazy, changed all silentblocks, dismantled the whole car, even the fuel tank and so on... It turned out to be the silent block that's at the end of the suspension shock itself...
I think it’s criminal that cars can be sold with known design flaws and “it’s a Ferrari” seems to excuse the manufacturer (other brands are available and equally rubbish)… Why are cars seemingly exempt from legal recourse??? at least to the same level that other products are held to😳
Badmouthing Ferrari in public does not go unnoticed in Maranello. if you can understand German, there are a few jaw-dropping videos about a black FF with quality issues you will not believe until you see them. Including how Ferrari reacted when they went public with it.
Ferrari gets a away with it because there is always a fool happy to pay over sticker for their poorly engineered cars. Buyers vote with their wallet: as long as they continue buying the product, Ferrari will have no reason to change their practice.
@@Biosynchrof355s have way more issues and maintenance is super expensive... You have to get the engine out for major service which was resolved on the 360....
It pays to get a second, or third opinion: My Bentley Continental R came up with an engine check light. The ECU was checked and no fault found so the dealer thought it might be in the instrument panel itself. Two different garages proposed removing the DIP Panel (display info panel) and sending it away to be refurbished, which might take up to 1 month. Cost for this is both cases was sub £1k. A third dealer said they could fix it while I waited so off I went. Within 3 hours and £300.00 later the light was off. Appears the DIP panel only had a couple of dry solder joints. All I am trying to say is some dealers/mechanics are better than others.
Hi James, there is nothing like others pain to offset the envy! I think a pattern is emerging here, anything beginning with an F or an M or an A from Italy definitely comes with a healthy helping of "character". Possibly also a P from Germany.
My 360 has had some of these issues, now essentially all fixed. However the cars are designed & set up to handle fantastic on flat tracks or good roads. The complete pile of s-h-1-T roads we now have in the UK just mutilate every Joint/interface on the cars.
02:04 😂 Really interesting video. Thanks for sharing! Side note: grease attracts dirt which turns it into sand paper. Use it where needed/recommended and don't use too much. Don't apply it for the sake of it!
My gut feeling would be that if the rattle is returning in such short order then perhaps a bolt is backing out somewhere due to insufficient torque/lack of thread locker/wallowed out hole/stretched bolt? Even a bad ball joint or bushing will go some distance before it starts to declare its protestations purely because of the amount of material that needs to be worn away. Torque everything to spec, drive it a few hundred miles (or until the issue returns) and then check every bolt to see if they're still to spec.
Feel your pain 😢 my 2008 430 16k mile has had an eye watering amount of money spent on it (mostly by previous owners but I’m catching up) had more bushes than the Chelsea Flower Show not to mention ball joints, pins, boots etc etc independent mentioned the chassis can act as a bit of an echo chamber & noise can travel plus not sure salient engineering logic applied works every time for some strange reason bit like a good older vet they just know…..resigned myself to 2k a year on parts plus servicing its ridiculous 💰 however part of the journey mines as tight as a ducks bum drives like an F1 car love it! ❤
Dupont has a dry chain lubricant spray that's basically PTFE in a solvent that flashes off leaving the PTFE behind to lubricate. Chains are susceptible to contamination leading to faster wear, especially if a wet lubricant that attracts dirt is used in a dirty environment. I wonder if that spray might not work to prolong the life of the rose-joints?
Yup, if the ball joints don’t have boots over them grease is just a way to make the dirt stick onto them and get pulled in. They’d be better dry in that case (better yet greased and inside a sealed boot, mind you!)
Your level of perseverance James with this clonking issue is above and beyond. Let’s hope you get there in the end. also ball joints glued in with what is effectively Araldite, that’s the first for me 😮
Had rose-jointed drop-links on my STI which were great till the winter.... Whiteline replaced them, but in the end I gave up and used a lower spec. part !! Didn't notice any difference.
Since the Nurburgring has become sort of a car youtuber mecca these days, would you consider going over there with the F430 Scuderia and driving it round the track? A roadtrip kind of video, with the added bonus of seeing how that magnificent (if frustrating) car handles at higher speeds!
Hard to get insurance. All kinds of thing can happen. Not even your fault, coolant on track etc. Very dangerous place. Very few TH-camrs I follow go there much. Mhissa, he knows what he is doing and still crashes and has to pay. His content is good as he pushes it and knows it well. Few others can match that so why risk it.
I really feel for you ... motoring should be enjoyable (especially when youve worked so hard to pay the price tag for a car of that calibre!) Fingers crossed for you and i hope Ferrari appreciate your love and patience for their product
Wow, the next time I have to pay £70 to replace a ball joint on my Kia Rio, I will say a quick prayer! I don't think I will ever need to use that glue gun but a man has to dream....Thanks James!
What I have gleaned from this episode is that my Megane rs250 is the same as a 430 scud. It needed a suspension refresh to the tune of £2.5k as well 😂😂😂
I've got exactly the same Arai helmet (now retired for a Shoei)|, love the design... also enjoying the channel. Going to look at a GT86 this weekend and will use your CarVertical link.
I have dreamt of owning a Ferrari since my teens... All of the videos I have seen about the poor reliability of these wonderful cars, as well as the huge cost of repairs have convinced me to let go of this dream and stick to Porsches....
Damper valves. The valves in the dampers can make a noise exactly like this. I had some Nitrons that did this. Drove me crazy trying to trace it. Damper rebuild sorted it.
Dick Lovett used to be in the village of Wroughton, in a really nice house on the high street. I would often dream about owning one of their exotics when I grew up.
Good luck. Flipping nightmare. I’m well aware of the ball joint issues. Replacing them on my 360 fortunately made a massive difference. Driving over cobbles was horrendous.
Mate, I feel your pain! I had a similar issue with a Fiat Cinquecento, the rear trailing arm bushes go but when they raise the car up for the MOT they seem to be fine and pass. I had to pay £70 for some powerflex poly bushes and borrow a press from a mate AND spend half a day sorting it out! Absolute nightmare, and I'm sure you'll agree an almost identical situation 🤭
Must say James I think your tollerence levels are far higher than mine would be in terms of faff/cost for sake of ownership in these things. But credit to you, and for being so open about it all. What car would you say gives say 90% of the pleasure of this one but for 50% of the faff/cost? If there is one.
I don't know what these ball joint and rattle issues you're having are. I bought one of the last F430 manual spiders in what, 2008? Still fine, no rattle of any kind.
Have you considered that every time you have work done and it temporarily cures it, its not the part replaced making the difference. Its just the act of stripping and re- torque on reassembly thats working. Perhaps thats all it is. You need to re-torque every 200 miles. You owned an Elise, factory service notes state re-torquing after a track day. Cheap experiment.
Blimey, I get pissed off buying new drop links (£12 each ) for my MX-5 every 30,000 miles. Thanks for giving me some perspective and I hope she's fixed
Surely one way of putting miles on her is it a road trip to Europe. I know you’ve been asked this often, and have listed the reasons why it doesn’t work for you, but I really I believe a yearly road trip would elevate the channel 👍 maybe something in spring?
I can understand the frustration - not on the same level, but I've had 3 GT86's and then just returned my GR86 as they all have this buzzing/rattling shifter at around 4-5k RPM. It's infuriating and no suggested fixes worked (and I tried all of them .. and some extra) but to no solution. Toyota claimed it was some resonance and could not be fixed. Seems mad as once you tune into it, it's hard to unheard. Decided to got for the MND2 MX-5 and never looked back.
While frustrating, for a 15 year old performance car, I think this is not too surprising a bill. Have had only minor issues with my Scud in three years so far... have spent far more on newer Porsches and BMWs ... and those were no comparison in terms of thrills. Hope the problem is now fixed for you and yiu can enjoy it as intended.
Lovely car James, great colour. Think I missed whether you sold your first one or it was returned due to th3 knocking. Either way, it sounds like a frustrating journey you’ve been on to ge5 a lovely car how it should be.
well i can hear thar your previous Scud had the exact same knocking sound at the front. unless you are suggesting that the previous car had the same aftermarket ball joint without the glue.. 😅 good luck keen to find out the solution as mine has the same issue.. very annoying...
With the best will in the world James; much as I enjoyed this video - I will never, EVER buy a Ferrari, clearly they're a potential bottomless money-pit. I am so happy that I've got a Lexus.l; and if I change it, I'll simply buy another. I hope you get everything sorted, after all, it is a beautiful car.
@@stuchly1 nah, to me it's like when some rich amateur buys a nice expensive custom guitar and then leaves it to collect dust, never maintaining it properly and complains when it plays like crap and needs a ton of work. I've heard from Ferrari mechanics that lots of new Ferrari owners never maintain them properly leading to long term issues.
@@t3hgir I find that a bit challenging to believe as a FSH has a disproportional effect on the resale value of a Ferrari. Not to mention new Ferraris come with a Complimentary 7 Year Maintenance Program, which includes factory-scheduled maintenance and inspections at standard service intervals as outlined in the vehicle's warranty booklet, including labor, related Genuine Ferrari Parts and approved lubricants, for the covered Ferrari vehicles. I have to wonder who were these Ferrari mechanics who told you owners refuse years of free maintenance and service? Oops. You just made that story up, didn't you?
Jesus Christ, this reminds me of my e46 bmw ownership experience 😂 You know you’ve got a difficult car when the mechanic isn’t even happy to see your car anymore, they just seem defeated
Indeed. My experience of Donkey only gos up to this era - 430, 612 Scag etc. They're fairly shoddy cars with nice engines. The brand is mostly smoke and mirrors, which isn't a huge surprise, that's kind of the point of branding. Maybe the newer stuff is better, but I suspect it wouldn't stand up to any significant use.
Ferrari should just employ some engineers. They should be able to do so given the price of their cars. If a car has those problems, it is not properly engineered.
A Ferrari dealer charging for OEM parts and using aftermarket parts--while installing them incorrectly. Shocking. Dick Lovett's lawyers are going to have a field-day with this one.
Friend of mine had a 355 luckily he had it with a service warranty and he done the right thing car ended a money pit needing eventually a new engine. If you have the wealth buy new and move on after warranty
Yip, one is mistaken to think that the "experts" know what they are doing. Just look at the average guy working at these places ... A real good mechanic is worth his/her weight in gold.
Lovely vid as usual JM. Moot point, worth making/asking: these cars… namely gt3s, `scuderias and the like “motorsport” versions of existing, already uber fast cars… Whats the point in this country? I am referring to tarmac sh*te quality anywhere you d want to drive them…. Track days? Pointless… too expensive to maintain, and if one has a trackday hobby, there are plenty faster cars on a fraction of the cost… or if you are twice-a-year guy, then you rent… So what is the point of having a Scuderia?
James, it’s very odd for ball joints to be “glued” in place. Normally, they’re just pressed into place with grease, which might explain the grease you found on the old ones. It also showcases how poorly designed these ball joints are, no way should they be letting debris to creep in and corrode. It’s probably just the Italian mentality that can’t foresee such issues. Not everyone drives their Ferrari in pristine conditions. 😂
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The ball joint at 13.30 is just a stock NMB ABYT10 high mis-alignment stainless steel bearing with a different code etched on it to cover the pressed in spacers at each end (which you can get out and re-use by the way), Hill are most likely ripping you off a wee bit on this one but their prices are certainly not extortionate unlike Ferrari's. They definately should not be greased with Moly grease as yours look to be as that does attack the PTFE lining and greatly reduces the life of that segment of the bearing, leading to knocking. Sadly this is just spherical bearing life and some Ferrari geometry is questionable to say the least so they will be eaten in no time at all, especially if proper seals are not used to keep grit out. Someone elese also mentioned the likely cure in the comments, and thats to ignore the Ferrari torque specs and just use a bit of FT on all the bolts or regularly re-torque the bolts (shouldn't be needed I know, but Ferraris are NOT well engineered cars). The other point that may also help is making some new spacer inserts that are tighter to the bolts but the higher torque should prevent the slip that may cause knocking.
Sounds like very good info/advice .
Don't suppose you'd know what the nmt equivalent for the bottom joint would be would you?
Teflon ahouldn't really react with anything.. If talking about different hardnesses of the materials, then sure, maybe..
Sorry, thinking of DU bushes there which use a lead/ptfe combo but adding grease to a ptfe lined bearing generally just makes a nice grinding paste that destroys the PTFE in double quick time.
@@christhompson9420 You can probably figure it out from www.autosport-bearings.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2016/07/NMB-ABYT-ABYT-V-ABC-TDS.pdf
I honestly will put $100 down that the sound comes back. I’ve done literally all of this as well on my CS, and the sound came right back. Only way to fix it seems to be tightening the lower shock nuts that seem to loosen every couple hundred miles. So strange. I heard there is a newer style bolt and also the torque specs were increased to 80 by Ferrari themselves because of this issue. I hope I’m wrong for you though, so good luck!
I heard about this too, any idea what the new torque figure is?
@@JayEmmOnCars I’d have to double check my WSM, but I’m pretty sure original was 60 and now it’s 80.
The engineers actually resorted to using glue to hold ball joints in place... I mean, that's a pretty dire engineering choice for a wear component. Very Italian though, I guess.
@@Beer_Dad1975 it’s not a bad idea and it works. Just have to actually use the glue and do it right. One reason is so they can be pressed in and out as needed without wearing down the material in the arm itself. Seems dumb, but….RACE CAR. LOL
Thread locker but most don't prepare the threads correctly. 😅
I'm guessing the bigger issue is is that Ferrari used aluminum control arms with steel ball joint studs. And as you drive along, the still simply compresses or machines away the aluminum and you're right back to where you started. So the only way to correctly fix it would be to drill out the hole and install a steel sleeve and then bolt it all back together again lmfao
The fragility, cost and lifespan of Ferrari parts never cease to amaze me and would put me off ownership.
They simply make cars badly. Always have.
Aren't rose joints primarily used on race cars hence wearing quickly and are frequently replaced. I see why they used it on the Scuderia but if someone does not know that, it tends to become a nuisance.
100%, and the greatest brand creation ever, lots of romance and history but often poor , shoddy products at outrageous prices.@@julianevans9548
@@julianevans9548They simply don’t. It’s previous owners and garages not maintaining them.
I’ve had three Ferraris of various ages. Whilst they’ve not been perfect they’ve never once let me down.
Remember the newest Scud will be 14 now.
@@julianevans9548Not always. My 328 was quite well built. I agree the newer cars are overly complicated and have too many weak spots. Why should a Hill Engineering bearing be superior to Ferrari OEM? Regardless, I’ve gone back to classic Porsches and am loving these. Not cheap to maintain, but overall a quality machine.
Just to clarify those are rose joints, which, although are use on road cars ( high performance ) are really only used and mean for on race cars because they wear out quickly. 👍 great video as always for explaining the ownership experience
My Mercedes S211 and my BMW e46 have rose/heim joints on on the back as standard. People confuse the two terms, but I think technically a ball joint has to be a ball and stud, like a track rod end. A rose joint is like a ball bearing with a hole in the middle that then the fastener goes through.
They usually have a boot over them (both sides) and are greased. A ball joint only has one boot.
My Range Rover has them too, gives the suspension greater articulation.
Ignorant question here - is it normal for them to be glued in? That seems a bit crap to me - from my vague recollection of mechanical engineering at university, it's like they couldn't be bothered doing a tapered interference fit...
@adogmcdizzle Not that it makes any difference, but I have heard a Heim joint refered to by the more generic term, spherical rod end. A rose joint is not a term I have ever heard used here in the USA, which is not surprising due to the differing nomenclature our two countries enjoy.
@@ccrider8483 Rose joint is a term used in Britain for a Heim joint. I think Heim joint is the correct term however.
Great video. I've owned a Ferrari for over 15 years. My F355 has 26 service stamps, either from Ferrari or the 'best' specialists. Over the years I've been billed for stuff they've just not replaced, like plugs or just not done at all. I recently had the throttle linkages stripped and done properly locally by a none Ferrari specialist who just 'cared'. Transformed it. I must have asked Ferrari four times to sort it. They either said it was the carpet, or they squirted some oil on it. They take the piss mate sometimes sadly.
I used to work developing linkrods and ball joints for automotive suspension assemblies, its extremely rare that a ball joint does not have extra lubrication added to it, PTFE is self lubricant, yes, but its not enough by itself in any high load aplication. Granted, you might have had the wrong type of lubricant put on it adding to your issue rather than lessen it.
The damage you've shown, specially in the corroded ball joint, is more of an indicative of water + debris ingress into the rubber boot/cover, and you wouldnt believe how extremely expensive and labour + knowledge intensive it is to develop one of those rubber boots to be watertight, as in companies can easyly go bankrupt when OEMs come to do warranty claims after a failed design goes into a car.
Spot on with your Point but for me the Main issue is that Ball joint from Ferrari is Mild Steel with Chrome Vanadium. As you've stated any water/dirt ingress is going to pit them and then corrosion will just destroy them. Also if the car is sitting still for a long duration the ball joints will have the full weight of the car on them and will eventually the chrome will just cracked and self destruct. These joints Ferrari have used are for Race use only and will be replaced every race or every other. Also Ball joints really need lubricating with either a PTFE grease or spray which should br done Regularly, this is what I did with the Race Car I had, although they had no covers, which as well as lubricated them it also cleaned them!!
If Ferrari are going to put racing parts on a Road Car they need to make the parts so they don't corrode, are properly sealed and can be lubricated every 2k otherwise every Ferrari owner will go through what Jay is going through!!
Interesting. Some products are easy for the aftermarket to copy. Some are not. Cycle chains are an example. Aftermarket ones wear very quickly. But cassettes and chain rings and cycle disc pads are fine.
@@markwalton8644 These cars typically do low mileage and customers kind of expect bills. Ferrari exploit them though. Same way they get people to buy multiple cars before they sell some models. Or cut off journos from early scoup tests cars if they give a bad review. No way would a Japanese company do any of that. Why I prefer their cars! Ferrari is over marketed. I like the style and the passion, but is it worth it? Only if you are mega rich!
@@andrewnorris5415
I agree, it's why even though 90% of Petrol heads lust after a Ferrari watching Jayemm's experience of Ferraris would put me off. His Ferraris have spent 95% of their time in a Garage racking up large Bills with part prices quadrupled and not lasting 5 minutes because the parts aren't up to the job. That to me would be so frustrating!! Any other Garage you'd be going back to the Garage and complaining that the parts fitted to the car weren't upto the job and should be fixed with parts which will at least a 1000 miles.
I hope James sorts his cars but I'm not Sure James's patience will last much longer as he likes to drive his Cars and not have them sitting in a Garage.
Enjoy your videos. An expensive sports car is usually purchased to enjoy and have fun with. Your video shows that your experience appears it isn't an enjoyable one, more like a stressful one that's verging on OCD. I'd have outed that car a while ago. I had a GT86 for a couple of years and when that kept me going back to the garage too regularly I outed it. Stress gone.
Fingers crossed the problem will be sorted, we'd love to see more of the Scud.
Always Enjoy. For a moment there, I thought a ham sandwich would be fetched from the bag😉
I oftem muse about adding a Ferrari to my 100 car ownership history, which presently has most makes covered, but nothing from Ferrari. Then I watch one of your videos. 😄😄
Hello James. Even though both my financial position and the lack of desire for such vehicles mean I'll never own a supercar (Jags & Bentleys are my limit), I find the way you tell the story of your trials and tribulations of trying to fix your suspension woes utterly fascinating: informative & entertaining.
However, I hope you've now cracked it.
Love looking at Ferraris - Love owning and driving my 2018 Ford Mustang GT Premium, 460 horse power, V8, six speed manual. Five plus years & 60,000+ miles of driving pleasure. Everything works as intended. Maintenance, full synthetic oil change every 5,000 miles, all fluids changed at 60,000 miles, four new tires at 50,000 miles, new battery after four years. Anticipate many more years of trouble free driving. Happy motoring from Texas, USA 🇺🇸
It's such a lot of arsing about for that one afternoon when you can enjoy it. Life's too short, get something you can enjoy, well, more!
Thanks for the update James. I'd always thought that if I ever had the money for a Scuderia then it would be on my shopping list. But now I think I'd look for something else if my lottery numbers ever come up. Those kind of problems must be very frustrating, and spoil the enjoyment of the car.
It would be a pity to waste your winnings on a pos.
@@anthonyxuereb792Point Of Sale?
You're nicer than me, I was referring to something else. @@ChrisPatrick-q6k
Mate had a 360. Said Ferrari owners smile twice: once when they buy it, once when they sell it.
He traded his 360 for a GT3RS.
I picked up an 2005 F430 in 2018. Within 30 days of ownership it had developed a gearbox issue, that took 9 months to get sorted. The dealer (Ferrari of Ontario) was stand-up and repaired the issues at not cost to me. Turned out to be gearbox actuator
Since then I've also had to replace ball joints, engine mounts, F1 solonoids, a toe rod, carbon ceramic pad and have a full brake service, probably an average of 10k CAD per year for servicing (7.5k USD).
That being said the F430 is one the most engaging and fun to drive cars my stable. That V8 and analog connection is utterly intoxicating. With new PS4S tyres, exhaust remote and a Scuderia alignment it's better then the day it left the factory 👌
Well you succesfully covinced me to never buy a 430 Scuderia James. But you did open my eyes to the Citroen C5. Unlike the Ferrari, I might even be able to afford that one.
Thank you for putting my own car repair bills into perspective.
James is doing a real public service, its made my Porsche servicing costs seem very reasonable. Fingers crossed you are able to resolve this issue asap.
To grease any type of open bearing is a sign of shortened life.
Micro grits get in, mixes with the grease and act’s as a perfect grinding paste.
It may be race car derived but it’s a good example of ‘mean time between failure’ being designed into a road car.
Thanks. I like this kind of sleuthing content. It’s what this hobby is all about.
I feel your pain Jay... My (oh so joyous) pain is in the form of a Cessna.
At least it doesn't have a lot of suspension lol!
The good thing about this is that you'll never run out of material for your videos. (I'm joking).
Had the car been service at Ferrari, presumably the glue would have been applied as per the service schedule, and there wouldn’t have been any issues?
I love the fact that Jay is always upfront on the financial reality of owning an ageing exotic . It’s a real commitment if you earning under £100k / year
Thank you for sharing this. Although I Do not own a Ferrari, the experience of paying a lot to still have an issue is universal. Hopefully your video helpt some 430 owners.
Hi James, I had this noise on a BMW from the back. We went crazy, changed all silentblocks, dismantled the whole car, even the fuel tank and so on... It turned out to be the silent block that's at the end of the suspension shock itself...
Shock top mount? I've had those worn on an old E30 with clackety type noise over bumps.
You've now done everything I've done on my F430 Manual Coupe, mine isn't knocking as we speak!
Best of luck with it James, hope the issues are finally fixed and you feel it was all worth it in the end
Watching videos about dream cars is so much better than actually living the dream.
I think it’s criminal that cars can be sold with known design flaws and “it’s a Ferrari” seems to excuse the manufacturer (other brands are available and equally rubbish)…
Why are cars seemingly exempt from legal recourse??? at least to the same level that other products are held to😳
Right? Especially considering the asking price these shouldn't be rubbish items.
Badmouthing Ferrari in public does not go unnoticed in Maranello. if you can understand German, there are a few jaw-dropping videos about a black FF with quality issues you will not believe until you see them. Including how Ferrari reacted when they went public with it.
I know it’s not the same class of car but i never understood how Vauxhall got away with the corsa d vxr was an absolute bag of shite
Can you point me somewhere more specific? I'd be... interested to see that series @@jackdoe3889
Ferrari gets a away with it because there is always a fool happy to pay over sticker for their poorly engineered cars. Buyers vote with their wallet: as long as they continue buying the product, Ferrari will have no reason to change their practice.
I don’t have an F430. I doubt I will ever own one, even though I would love to. But your videos about this issue are supremely interesting to me!👍
I'm not sure I would want an F430, given that the F355 exists.
@@Biosynchrof355s have way more issues and maintenance is super expensive... You have to get the engine out for major service which was resolved on the 360....
It pays to get a second, or third opinion: My Bentley Continental R came up with an engine check light. The ECU was checked and no fault found so the dealer thought it might be in the instrument panel itself. Two different garages proposed removing the DIP Panel (display info panel) and sending it away to be refurbished, which might take up to 1 month. Cost for this is both cases was sub £1k. A third dealer said they could fix it while I waited so off I went. Within 3 hours and £300.00 later the light was off. Appears the DIP panel only had a couple of dry solder joints. All I am trying to say is some dealers/mechanics are better than others.
Oh joy , rose joints really do not really work on road cars , especially on the near side , they wear , and the off side seize up .
Tightening the lower shock bolts up front to 80Nm did the trick for me! Phew!
Ferrari ownership underscores how sensible Lotus ownership is by comparison. 90% of the thrills, 20% of the bills.
10% of the time!
And we make the best handling cars in the world :)) Maranello has nothing on Hethel's consistently world-leading handling and chassis capability 💛💚
Hi James, there is nothing like others pain to offset the envy! I think a pattern is emerging here, anything beginning with an F or an M or an A from Italy definitely comes with a healthy helping of "character". Possibly also a P from Germany.
Lord! I cannot afford a Ferrari or at least to fix one. Thanks for the honesty and numbers always interesting to hear.
I don’t know where you get the patience for this car, James. I would have been rid of it ages ago.
To be fair I did get rid of the last one...
Problem solving is its own reward!
A nice clear explanation. Give it a good shakedown! Hopefully your apprehension will turn into confidence and renewed joy.
My 360 has had some of these issues, now essentially all fixed. However the cars are designed & set up to handle fantastic on flat tracks or good roads. The complete pile of s-h-1-T roads we now have in the UK just mutilate every Joint/interface on the cars.
So, my car needs an MOT, to make sure its roadworthy....wonder why roads don't need MOTs to make sure they are car worthy????
02:04 😂 Really interesting video. Thanks for sharing!
Side note: grease attracts dirt which turns it into sand paper. Use it where needed/recommended and don't use too much. Don't apply it for the sake of it!
My gut feeling would be that if the rattle is returning in such short order then perhaps a bolt is backing out somewhere due to insufficient torque/lack of thread locker/wallowed out hole/stretched bolt? Even a bad ball joint or bushing will go some distance before it starts to declare its protestations purely because of the amount of material that needs to be worn away. Torque everything to spec, drive it a few hundred miles (or until the issue returns) and then check every bolt to see if they're still to spec.
Feel your pain 😢 my 2008 430 16k mile has had an eye watering amount of money spent on it (mostly by previous owners but I’m catching up) had more bushes than the Chelsea Flower Show not to mention ball joints, pins, boots etc etc independent mentioned the chassis can act as a bit of an echo chamber & noise can travel plus not sure salient engineering logic applied works every time for some strange reason bit like a good older vet they just know…..resigned myself to 2k a year on parts plus servicing its ridiculous 💰 however part of the journey mines as tight as a ducks bum drives like an F1 car love it! ❤
Maybe you could get a body kit for it to make it look like an MR2.
🤣🤣🤣
Don’t think it would stop the clunking but it’d look the part at least 😂
Grease won't affect PTFE. It will however encourage grit that has got in to stay in.
Dupont has a dry chain lubricant spray that's basically PTFE in a solvent that flashes off leaving the PTFE behind to lubricate.
Chains are susceptible to contamination leading to faster wear, especially if a wet lubricant that attracts dirt is used in a dirty environment.
I wonder if that spray might not work to prolong the life of the rose-joints?
Yup, if the ball joints don’t have boots over them grease is just a way to make the dirt stick onto them and get pulled in. They’d be better dry in that case (better yet greased and inside a sealed boot, mind you!)
Your level of perseverance James with this clonking issue is above and beyond. Let’s hope you get there in the end. also ball joints glued in with what is effectively Araldite, that’s the first for me 😮
Had rose-jointed drop-links on my STI which were great till the winter.... Whiteline replaced them, but in the end I gave up and used a lower spec. part !! Didn't notice any difference.
Since the Nurburgring has become sort of a car youtuber mecca these days, would you consider going over there with the F430 Scuderia and driving it round the track? A roadtrip kind of video, with the added bonus of seeing how that magnificent (if frustrating) car handles at higher speeds!
He can hardly make it 200 miles without the suspension falling to bits, hardly the car for a road trip to a race track is it.
Hard to get insurance. All kinds of thing can happen. Not even your fault, coolant on track etc. Very dangerous place. Very few TH-camrs I follow go there much. Mhissa, he knows what he is doing and still crashes and has to pay. His content is good as he pushes it and knows it well. Few others can match that so why risk it.
Thank you so much for sharing. Hope you fixed it for good this time.
I enjoy your fact finding videos James 👍👍 I did however expect you to pull a pasty out of the bag at one point 😉
Me to.
What's the betting that the first one that you got rid of has the same issue as they both had possible suspension work by the same dealer ?
I really feel for you ... motoring should be enjoyable (especially when youve worked so hard to pay the price tag for a car of that calibre!)
Fingers crossed for you and i hope Ferrari appreciate your love and patience for their product
Love these kind of sit down videos. Thank you.
Wow, the next time I have to pay £70 to replace a ball joint on my Kia Rio, I will say a quick prayer! I don't think I will ever need to use that glue gun but a man has to dream....Thanks James!
I have the same issue on mine but for the peace of my mind I don't care at all....I just love the Scuderia so much that I don't care at all...
Netflix could serialise James's Scud woes. Good to know in case I get similar problems with my 575M.
What I have gleaned from this episode is that my Megane rs250 is the same as a 430 scud. It needed a suspension refresh to the tune of £2.5k as well 😂😂😂
I've got exactly the same Arai helmet (now retired for a Shoei)|, love the design... also enjoying the channel. Going to look at a GT86 this weekend and will use your CarVertical link.
I have dreamt of owning a Ferrari since my teens... All of the videos I have seen about the poor reliability of these wonderful cars, as well as the huge cost of repairs have convinced me to let go of this dream and stick to Porsches....
Thanks for your commitment to this issue and for "Taking one for the Team!" Very commendable!
Damper valves. The valves in the dampers can make a noise exactly like this. I had some Nitrons that did this. Drove me crazy trying to trace it. Damper rebuild sorted it.
Dick Lovett used to be in the village of Wroughton, in a really nice house on the high street. I would often dream about owning one of their exotics when I grew up.
Jay, what you need is an Exorcist 😉
when you willingly walk into what you know is a minefield, you probably secretly love the risk & the drama...or you're a masochist.
Cool video! Thanks for sharing. Learned a few things.
I love these sit down and chat videos
Good luck. Flipping nightmare. I’m well aware of the ball joint issues. Replacing them on my 360 fortunately made a massive difference. Driving over cobbles was horrendous.
Mate, I feel your pain! I had a similar issue with a Fiat Cinquecento, the rear trailing arm bushes go but when they raise the car up for the MOT they seem to be fine and pass.
I had to pay £70 for some powerflex poly bushes and borrow a press from a mate AND spend half a day sorting it out! Absolute nightmare, and I'm sure you'll agree an almost identical situation 🤭
I commend your tenacity, JayEmm.
You'll enjoy it eventually..
Must say James I think your tollerence levels are far higher than mine would be in terms of faff/cost for sake of ownership in these things. But credit to you, and for being so open about it all.
What car would you say gives say 90% of the pleasure of this one but for 50% of the faff/cost? If there is one.
I don't know what these ball joint and rattle issues you're having are. I bought one of the last F430 manual spiders in what, 2008? Still fine, no rattle of any kind.
Really got my eyes on F430's at the moment so these videos are saving me a small fortune in putting me off..XD
Have you considered that every time you have work done and it temporarily cures it, its not the part replaced making the difference. Its just the act of stripping and re- torque on reassembly thats working. Perhaps thats all it is. You need to re-torque every 200 miles. You owned an Elise, factory service notes state re-torquing after a track day.
Cheap experiment.
@MachineGunMike thinks the same
Dave, I make you right……
It has not escaped my thought process...
@@JayEmmOnCars good luck. But if it gets too much, I’ll drive it rattling and knocking for you. For science.
If that actually solves it then its a monumental failure of engineering on Ferrari's part. Every 200 miles, sheesh.
Blimey, I get pissed off buying new drop links (£12 each ) for my MX-5 every 30,000 miles. Thanks for giving me some perspective and I hope she's fixed
Stay Japanese, they are cheap and fun and reliable.
Surely one way of putting miles on her is it a road trip to Europe. I know you’ve been asked this often, and have listed the reasons why it doesn’t work for you, but I really I believe a yearly road trip would elevate the channel 👍 maybe something in spring?
Definitely not now, we are under snow :D
@@staLkerhuyes, spring time, March-April would be ideal.
I can understand the frustration - not on the same level, but I've had 3 GT86's and then just returned my GR86 as they all have this buzzing/rattling shifter at around 4-5k RPM. It's infuriating and no suggested fixes worked (and I tried all of them .. and some extra) but to no solution. Toyota claimed it was some resonance and could not be fixed. Seems mad as once you tune into it, it's hard to unheard. Decided to got for the MND2 MX-5 and never looked back.
While frustrating, for a 15 year old performance car, I think this is not too surprising a bill. Have had only minor issues with my Scud in three years so far... have spent far more on newer Porsches and BMWs ... and those were no comparison in terms of thrills. Hope the problem is now fixed for you and yiu can enjoy it as intended.
Have you spoken to Ratarossa Scott? He’s in the weeds on f430/Scuds/360s.
If the thing had a serious stereo, you could solve your problem at zero cost, and permanently. Just turn on the stereo at a sufficiently high volume.
Lovely car James, great colour. Think I missed whether you sold your first one or it was returned due to th3 knocking. Either way, it sounds like a frustrating journey you’ve been on to ge5 a lovely car how it should be.
well i can hear thar your previous Scud had the exact same knocking sound at the front. unless you are suggesting that the previous car had the same aftermarket ball joint without the glue.. 😅 good luck keen to find out the solution as mine has the same issue.. very annoying...
With the best will in the world James; much as I enjoyed this video - I will never, EVER buy a Ferrari, clearly they're a potential bottomless money-pit.
I am so happy that I've got a Lexus.l; and if I change it, I'll simply buy another.
I hope you get everything sorted, after all, it is a beautiful car.
Oddly a friend got a Lexus and had to do all the joints on that too
Ouch. Sorry to hear man. That is a proper kick in the...
So basically if you buy one of these, they need a full suspension refresh!
Fantastic testament to Ferrari engineering and manufacturing.
@@stuchly1 I'm amazed that the balljoints are supposed to be glued in.
Ferrari s**tbox
@@stuchly1 nah, to me it's like when some rich amateur buys a nice expensive custom guitar and then leaves it to collect dust, never maintaining it properly and complains when it plays like crap and needs a ton of work. I've heard from Ferrari mechanics that lots of new Ferrari owners never maintain them properly leading to long term issues.
@@t3hgir I find that a bit challenging to believe as a FSH has a disproportional effect on the resale value of a Ferrari.
Not to mention new Ferraris come with a Complimentary 7 Year Maintenance Program, which includes factory-scheduled maintenance and inspections at standard service intervals as outlined in the vehicle's warranty booklet, including labor, related Genuine Ferrari Parts and approved lubricants, for the covered Ferrari vehicles.
I have to wonder who were these Ferrari mechanics who told you owners refuse years of free maintenance and service?
Oops.
You just made that story up, didn't you?
How the hell can ANYBODY afford to keep a Ferrari on the road? Good content, thanks.
Jesus Christ, this reminds me of my e46 bmw ownership experience 😂 You know you’ve got a difficult car when the mechanic isn’t even happy to see your car anymore, they just seem defeated
I love all things Italian, but QA on high end models is suspect and continues to be so. They're lucky they have an iconic moniker.
Indeed. My experience of Donkey only gos up to this era - 430, 612 Scag etc. They're fairly shoddy cars with nice engines. The brand is mostly smoke and mirrors, which isn't a huge surprise, that's kind of the point of branding. Maybe the newer stuff is better, but I suspect it wouldn't stand up to any significant use.
Ferrari should just employ some engineers. They should be able to do so given the price of their cars. If a car has those problems, it is not properly engineered.
A Ferrari dealer charging for OEM parts and using aftermarket parts--while installing them incorrectly. Shocking. Dick Lovett's lawyers are going to have a field-day with this one.
Surely somebody must know what it is and how to fix it.....Its not like its a one of a kind...!! Mad !
Good luck! Ferraris are a labour of love...
Friend of mine had a 355 luckily he had it with a service warranty and he done the right thing car ended a money pit needing eventually a new engine. If you have the wealth buy new and move on after warranty
Yip, one is mistaken to think that the "experts" know what they are doing. Just look at the average guy working at these places ... A real good mechanic is worth his/her weight in gold.
1 Of The Best Channels On TH-cam 😈
Fingers crossed for you, cheers for the update.
Silly cars, Silly problems.
Lovely vid as usual JM. Moot point, worth making/asking: these cars… namely gt3s, `scuderias and the like “motorsport” versions of existing, already uber fast cars… Whats the point in this country? I am referring to tarmac sh*te quality anywhere you d want to drive them…. Track days? Pointless… too expensive to maintain, and if one has a trackday hobby, there are plenty faster cars on a fraction of the cost… or if you are twice-a-year guy, then you rent… So what is the point of having a Scuderia?
You Have the Patience of a Saint!!!!
James, it’s very odd for ball joints to be “glued” in place. Normally, they’re just pressed into place with grease, which might explain the grease you found on the old ones. It also showcases how poorly designed these ball joints are, no way should they be letting debris to creep in and corrode. It’s probably just the Italian mentality that can’t foresee such issues. Not everyone drives their Ferrari in pristine conditions. 😂