Games Workshop and Warhammer RANT
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 30 ก.ย. 2024
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Can't wait to see Josh's Empire army on his shelf, in the box... unpainted.
all real warhammer players have unpainted armies.
@@Sammo212I wouldn’t be surprised if his army was unbuilt and still on the spew
I’d be interested to see his army in the box, on the sprue, in shrink wrap, but painted
😄@@SuperDuperHappyTime
I feel personally attacked.
A big problem in "geek culture" is the idea that the people who make the things you like are similar to yourself with the same ideals and desires.
This leads to the situation where people fanboy certain artists only to be disappointed.... Megaman fans know this.
Or for a closer example, Dungeons and Dragons. DnD right now is at an impasse where WoTC has to decide between catering to the old school fans who like the wargame-based tactical gameplay and the new fans who are more interested in a smooth-flowing roleplay experience where the game doesn't stop so that you can spend 5 minutes rolling dice and sorting the initiative order. Disappointingly, WoTC is trying to appeal to both at the same time and the result is the game is slowly losing it's appeal with everyone as they flock to other games that decide to focus on one of those two types of TTRPG.
The bigger problem is that a lot of people internalize a company or its products as part of their identity, so any criticism against a company or its products becomes a criticism of the individual personally. This is compounded tremendously by the fact that most consumers have little to no understanding of how the things they consume are made. Video game companies are a great example of this. People fan boy over companies like Bethesda or Blizzard, despite the fact that most, if not all, the people who were responsible for the games they initially fell in love with left years ago.
@@spnked9516Yep. A friend of mine highly criticized Starfield and one of the devs and then they got doxxed (the friend).
@kaijuultimax9407 even more so than the narrative Vs strategic game debate, 5e has a ton of mechanics and rules that exist for a pick-up game environment where you bring your existing character to a party of other previously existing characters with a DM you don't know. But who the hell plays DND like that these days?!
People play home games with their friends, with the intention of playing regularly over months. These pug-wargame roots are just no longer the reality for the majority of the Playerbase
This is why I try to avoid liking things.
That's sad man. Every GW store I've been to in Austria, the staff has been lovely and I've never felt like anyone was pushing something on me. Granted i haven't been to all of them and there may very well be some who are predatory. I order most stuff from distributors due to the pricing, but i sometimes still go to the store and pick up something smaller. It's been worth it just for the atmosphere in my mind.
As an example, i was looking around a store a few months back and a mom and her little son came in. The salesman was very transparent about the difficulty of assembling and painting the miniatures, especially for a small kid. He ended up giving them the mini of the month for free, so they could figure out if it was something he'd enjoy and didn't even try to sell them anything.
Yeah the GW store near me has been great. they helped me figure things out when I was new and helped me a lot learning how to play with a friend. Always like going there. I don't like when people proselytize their personal experience as general truth. Because you and I have had great experiences. People get very bitter and project it onto everyone.
Friendly local game stores should absolutely be encouraged, you can always make a clear distinction between the brick and mortar stores that foster actual communities and the top-level corporate scumbags who own the brand and relentlessly throw lawsuits at anyone they think is infringing their IP rights.
@@frogoreeyou realize you're doing the same? Just because you had a good experience doesn't mean the AVERAGE or ALL experiences are good
Your friendly local store and the great (or not) staff there isn't the same as GW ;)
I abandoned the hobby years ago, and not because of my local store (which went out of business quite some time ago) but because of GW and their predatory price tactics (and the end of time, and the race for bigger minis in every armies too...)
Yes, obviously. That's why I'm saying it as I'm also not the streamer in the video thousands of people will watch. Use your thinking cap.@@nejishadow
idk why but my mind went "you know what would be a fun thing to see happen? A stream/video of Josh and Bricky talking warhammer" and now thats something i need to see happen.
Id love that
a certain subset of people won't like Bricky (for various reasons but I'm looking for _that_ group), and that's all the more reason I want it to happen :)
I didn’t realize there was actual bricky hate. Let me guess? It’s the Chuds? I hope it’s the Chud. Let the cope flow.
Josh is one of my all time favourite creators, even though I’m not subbed (in funny about subbing).
I just never have any issues with his content outside of slight disagreements. Unlike people like Bricky, who I really like but can be very frustrating at times.
But would love to see them chat.
Josh as a guest on AdRic would be... an experience.
My local GW store is a bit of a dichotomy, in that the storeowner is a guy who's been in the hobby for ages and wants to preserve how he remembers it, but who's also throttled by corporate regulations.
You can build your minis at the table - but you have to use GW clippers, scrapers, and glue
You can paint your army in store - but only using GW brushes, handles, and water cups
He has no personal issue with 3d printing or 3rd party proxies - you just can't brimg them into the store
And don't order online for pickup at his store, because he doesn't get sales credit unless you use the in-store kiosk
In short, the GW store feels less of a hobby friendly space - or even an owner friendly space - so much as a GW-corporate friendly space
It’s the same with my local store in Australia. The owner is the friendliest, most chill dude, but corporate is steadily strangling him.
He had to remove the big communal painting table to ‘open up the store for faster customer flow’, had to start telling us to keep our tools in their cases all the time because small children might come in and stab themselves with them, and has to tell us not to come in on certain days each month because he’ll have a superior coming in expecting to see only sales being made and not experienced hobbyists just working away.
Where I grew up, the store had two halves. The front half was the store, the back half was tables to play on.
At some point, they turned half that play area into a staff only bit, adding a wall. And we only had one table.
And now, that table is apparently gone altogether, and its just more shelves. Because why play game when you could buy product
I'm also v much team hypocrite. The only reason I didn't buy the Khemri old world box was because it still has the really flimsy skeleton warriors
My FLGS store used to sell beer from a local micro brewery. The owners were old friends from back in the day.
We had an PC-Games/RPG books/RPG games shop in my city for ages. Called the "Dragon's Nest" or "Drachenhorst" in German. You could buy books, games and PC-Games there for cheaper than the big shop 100 m away. The top level was for playing tabletop, the bottom level was for selling stuff.
They had all the tabletop and card games ready to try out, you just had to ask for them. Chillest people working there, too. They would put on a CD sung in Klingon and talk about how they just did a two weekend session of playing Battletech on the floor of a whole room with friends, while they were sorting PC-Games for shipping.
The owner was a women who owned a mail-order/internet PC-Games shop, but she wanted to have a physical location where ever she lived.
Her concept for the shop was "don't lose too much money". Kids will come in, try out Shadowrun and Battletech, buy C&C in english as an import. We will make more money back with the main shop. She outright bought the location, before opening the shop, so they had very low base costs.
There was a campaign from "concearned" parents to shut it down (probably started by the "big" shop 100m away). But when the papers did a story on them, it turned out lots of kids were coming in, doing their homework in peace and getting some tutoring for free, because that was how the people working there rolled. Also, owning the location, they could not shut it down.
Sadly she moved cities after over a decade and they moved the shop, too.
I miss those kinds of shops that did not care about profit too much, because they owned the building. Not many of those around, anymore.
Out here, the GW stores have not only eliminated the tables, they eliminated half their shelves, too! Barely ever have anything in stock other than marines. It's just a spattering of some of the lines. Typically find better inventory and selection at the lfgs.
>you can't have endless growth
Tell that to every investor and ceo of every major company in america rn
america? try the whole world.
major companies in China are stuck in similar situations, they're just across the pond.
And the real villain was capitalism
Americans aren't uniquely susceptible to this sorta shit my dude.
I've never had a problem with GW sales staff in the past, but their prices have been in 'ridiculous' territory for a while, soon to be invading 'outrageous' territory after the next price hike. I always use Amazon, Ebay or FLG's to enjoy roughly 20% off their products, but even then, I'm getting to the point where it's incredibly difficult for me to justify the prices of their models. Now that I'm in a position to finally afford the hobby, I barely purchase anything since the prices are outrageous. I DO, however, purchase stock in the company since there are plenty of fans with no self-control.
Also compounded by the constant rules changes and new editions. It's incredibly frustrating how every single time 40k starts to feel balanced and whole, approaching that sweet spot of well-developed rules for every army while avoiding rules-bloat and unnecessary complexity, countless patches in the making... _"HERE COMES THE NEXT EDITION, COMPLETELY NEW FROM THE GROUND UP, WITH NEW MODELS AND MANDATORY CODEXES! PREPARE YOUR WALLETS! Also, go ahead and throw all your previous books and codexes in the basement (or a bonfire) and say goodbye to a bunch of models you can't use anymore for no reason! :D"_ ...and we're back to square one.
A *_stratospherically pricier_* square one.
@@Maverick2736 They would do themselves a lot of favour by having 5 year rules cycles rather than 3.
Plastic crack.
@@dashiellgillingham4579 you leave Madonna out of this.
its funny really I live in a remote area and so the nearest game store is 2 hours away and YOU BET it's games workshop. Prices are still ridiculous but they have never been pushy whenever I go into that one and are happy to recommend local places to go and play that are closer to where I am because they know all the local groups. It was quite the shock when I travelled into a larger city and discovered how pushy the stores there were
ohhh I've had that exact same experience, it's so lovely. People who want to come into the hobby, try visiting some stores! They all have regulars coming in who very likely know other shops in the same area who also play the game too. You don't have to stick to one store! Build some connections, have fun with socialising. The horror stories you've heard may be true, but I believe you can find the nice, chill people out there, who're just quietly minding their own business, having fun.
My local GW when I lived in Alexandria VA was an incredibly special moment in my gaming life. It was just a combination of the right people in the right place at the right time to make WH40k and Fantasy (pre-AOS) and even the LOTR mini's game a real community. Spent hours and hours just sitting there painting and chatting. I know that's the exception, not the rule, but man that was a great moment in time.
Same with GW Loughborough in the late 90s, we had two amazing managers who were just nice, genuine, and silly. Then they replaced them with a "buy something or get out" manager and the whole community just died. Haven't touched 40k in 21 years because of that... Yes it's a shop, yes it's there to sell you a product but the community aspect is what made us customers and fans of the product. I still read the books because Abnett, ADB, etc. are all fantastic writers who made the most out of a setting that was, for the large part, a hastily assembled sandbox.
My local store was just like that.
Warhammer, Magic, Dungeons, Vampire.... All geeks gathered there, and it was seamless to move from one hobby to the next.
The owners eventually got into WoW, and set up 4 computers to play and rent to customers.
We've got a GW store in West Hartford here in CT. It's a smaller version of a GW store and run by just a single person. He's a super cool guy, not pushy, genuinely loves wargaming and modeling. Had a very nice chat with him.
oh i know the exact store yur talking about
Passed by there before, glad to hear it's nice
Wait, I think I know what store you're talking about.
GW is reading your post, detecting heresy, and loading their Bolters as we speak.
Games Workshop has some of the best Fictional universes. they could make a large profit by just releasing a good product at a reasonable price. Instead they seem content to nickel and dime their customers. They consistently underfund projects that they make, such as all the video games and the animated tv show.
Its just incredibly sad. I want warhammer to succeed but want GW to fail.
honestly i just wish some rich billionaire CEO who actually loves the franchises would just walk in to GeeDubs' offices and throw a lot of money at them for the IP rights and then just reverse all the horrible decisions that company has made over the years
At the very least we'd get TTS back...
Henry Cavill should buy GW imo
@@salemas5 Idk if Henry Cavill has that kind of money. Warhammer may be niche but Games Workshop makes a shit ton of money, being a millionare is not nearly enough to buy that
@@salemas5 henry has to film actual good working movies on box office for that. We love Big C, but the most things he played in, were not that great,especially when it comes to Box Office numbers. Superman was his most big thing.
And buying GW is a number like "buyin activision blizzard or bethesda". Only the silicon valley ogs could do that. And americans which lead gw? hell no.
@@roys.1889 people who make the franchise need to own the IP
Everything about their fomo crap for the past three years or so has pretty much gotten me to completely stop spending money on them. I bought a repro Rogue Traders book, that's it. It was print to demand, there wasn't some weirdo line system, you just bought it and waited. That's the absolute worst the experience SHOULD be, but it is frequently much, much worse. Wait in a fake queue for an hour, find out it's sold out. Thanks
You can play these games without supporting the company. You never needed their permission to have fun.
I actually stopped going to my local GW for the most part due to the sales manager. I would stop in for some new release or just to see if they had something for an army and then checkout and then try to just leave. However after the purchase the guy would start asking all sorts of questions. Like, dude, I got my stuff, you have my money. Our relationship has ended for today. Now I just go to friendly stores in the area instead. No fuss, no barrage of questions. I go in, get what I want, or don't, and leave
A lot of the old guard staff from GW now work down the road at Warlord games, and I'd highly recommend their game systems to people who want to broaden their horizons
A hobby shop where people are actually playing the ding-dang games is WAY better at drawing people in than running demo games is. If you have enough space you can reserve ONE table for demo games and have 3-4 where people can play, and then people will see the games and want to try it after observing while feeling way more comfortable because they can figure it out more easily by watching first!
I'm glad my local warhammer shop has a pretty chill dude. He will offer things I may be interested in, but he doesn't try to push a sale. He is just happy to talk about the hobby and help answer questions.
I played Warhammer 40K for most of my adolescent years. I'm older now, went past a store the other day and thought it'd be fun to maybe just get back into painting the odd model now and then... Then I remembered how I'd be pounced on the moment I came through the door so I didn't go in. Simple as.
Tbh games workshop mangers don’t do that anymore, I’m fortunate that every Warhammer manager I’ve come across at least in south wales, are all very chilllax and friendly.
To be completely honest that's never happened to me or my friends, maybe they have new policies or something? The workers have always been kind and helpful, much less felt like they tried to sell you something and more like another guy into the product, which is what I hear, is exactly what Warhammer wants in their workers now.
@@darkrager872 they used to notoriously fry hump you in stores back in 2015 lmao. Not any more. A big issue I had with them was they’ve screw around parents, guilting them by taking down boxes to give to children to look at to “help visualise their future army” to see what they wanted, then the parents would feel bad about not getting much so they end up with a sale
@@Sonof_DRN2004 That's actually quite interesting, as my parents went to a store to buy me something for Christmas, instead they were offered a £50 voucher and some pretty cheap merch, like a nurgling pin and lanyard, I mean, £50 is a lot of money but it makes way more sense to offer that then to pressure these clueless people into buying a box worth hundreds.
I haven't been in a store for a long time, so I can't comment on what they're like currently, but I never said they aren't friendly or even chilled, in fact I found the staff to be some of the nicest people back in the day, just that they tended to pounce on people who really just want to browse quietly without any pressure. Which very much echos what Josh says in the video.@@Sonof_DRN2004
It's why the places who pressure you the most are Car Dealers, etc. They only need to sell you something once.
I'd argue that title belongs to kitchen salespeople
@@herrmannnachnahme9456 Especially if they're trying to sell you cabinets. >_
@@herrmannnachnahme9456 And people who sell bed, etc. I think that's one reason IKEA does so well.
Watching this while waiting in the car for my missus and I have a parcel from Goblin at home with some Carnevale in.
Goblin Gaming has always been my go to, fantastic service too.
I agree on the whole prices going too far, I'm on the border of not feeling it's worth anymore with what they've done with some of the new Tomb Kings mini's.... things like the Necrotect are priced alright, things like the Ushabti and Carrion are way overboard. I'm dreading the return of the High Elves though, I want to expand some of my old units but if they price a unit of 10 Sea Guard at 50 bucks or maybe make it a unit of 20 for 62,50 I'll feel conflicted as heck to get them. Same with Silver Helms, Spearmen, Archers etc.
I'm getting back into Old World after GW burned me by killing Warhammer Fantasy. I have resolved to play only with third party 3d prints. The whole landscape is wildly different than it was even 10 years ago, with 3d printing, discords, TH-cam, etc
3D printing really is a revolution for tabletop. Can cut the costs of minis straight in half if you're savvy and dedcated.
"Paying that much money for small bits of plastic is ridiculous" ever heard of LEGO?
I had a GW staffer once tell me, horrified, that Citadel Paints would not apply to non-Games Workshop miniatures. This was back in the early 2000's. They grew their staff in moulds in Nottingham. They could never get the eyes quite right...
I also had a GW staffer tell a friend that they could use their non-Games Workshop miniatures case in his store, but they couldn't tell anyone where they bought it.
They've got a lot better since then, but I miss when you could game in the store and they held game nights and events. Those were good times.
I have to agree. You don't open a bakery because you like muffins. You open a bakery because you enjoy running a business that provides a product.
That's 1 shop this is mutiple. Bad take.
@@JWSoulhe’s talking about the last point, where he said the local stores are run by passionate people who are bad at business. Which I imagine you agreed with. Not a bad take at all. Completely different to why the company of Games Workshop operates, that’s just more standard capatilism
That's a terrible idea. If you're not passionate about baking you'll never be a passionate baker. A nearby street to me has 3 award-winning bakeries within 50 yards of each other. They're passionate about baking. People come from all over the city just to get THEIR cakes. They love crafting foods. They love talking to people. The business element is the WORK part of it, not the passion.
@@darthkek1953 the work part of it is the part that causes so many failures, you’re falling into survivorship bias. Those people didn’t succeed just because they loved baking but also because they got to a good place through most likely a bit of luck and some business aptitude. You need a mix of both and just being passionate generally does not lead to success which is why so many passionate family restaurants and businesses fail. You need to survive long enough to outsource the business part to someone who enjoys that part so you can just do the passion part
@@JeronimoStilton14 "through most likely a bit of luck"
I wish I was the four-armed emperor so I could do four simultaneous facepalms. Here's a tip: the harder you work the lucker you become, the less diligent you are the unluckier you will be.
100 percent agree with the opinion on the local gaming store. I go to one here in the UK in Essex and it's literally like walking into a morgue. I swear the staff walk out as I walk in to try and not talk to me.
I'd love to see what UK charity shops are like
Australian charity shop book sections are cookbooks from the 80s, and Tom Clancy novels.
I'm an aging guy now but in the early days for me (1993, 40K second edition) you could walk into Games Workshop with your paints and models and in my local GW they had tables at the end of two gaming tables where you could sit down and paint your models! I even think they had some store paints if you were missing a colour or wanted to mix something with a colour you did have. My painting wasn't great but I remember the experience and even preferring to go down there to paint rather than sit at home where the lighting wasn't so good.
As most people do I dropped the hobby for probably 12-15 years before going back into a store with some spare cash and the painting stations had gone, they had 1 table, and the place was desolate. No atmosphere and yes I was pounced on with the hard sell. I still bought some space wolves, paints, etc but something was missing.... that connection with the store being a great place to be had totally gone and I didn't go back in. As Josh said the hard sell doesn't inspire you to want to return.
It really depends on the store I noticed. My local one has entire evenings dedicated to either painting or building and the atmosphere is always welcoming
Could tell the aging part by your ukraine facist pfp. Peak gammon.
At least he's honest. I don't take people seriously who complain about GW and still buy their products. People buying their crap no matter what is how they are enabled to do so. The consumers have the power.
This is why I don't care about what they do, cause the hobbists are far more insufferable than the company the majority of the time.
This was always the experience I've had; Every time I went into one of the stores, wanting to take my interest in the hobby from Lore to Game I was thrown a hard sell, hard enough that I didn't want to come back. After 4 different stores in my city all pulled the same stunt, I stopped trying. When I moved to a new city, I gave it one more attempt, thinking it might be different, and got a guy who felt like a used car salesman 5 minutes from closing time. Shady, Greasy, desperate to make a sale or make me feel bad for walking out empty handed.
In each case I was immediately given a checklist of about £100 worth of initial purchases in the forms of tools, rulebooks, and a starter set so small I wouldn't be able to play anything without another 2 or 3 kits to round it out, meaning the final amount to even _try the game_ is a £200+ entry fee. So I'd ask if I could visit the store during game nights or something, observe a few games, and see if it was for me. Each time, I got the same response; "If you're not modelling or playing, we don't want you in the store".
So I stopped coming to the stores.
I still like the lore. I watched every episode of Bruva Alfabusa's _The Emperor's Text to Speech Device_ on repeat, it's now as much comfort watching to me as early seasons of Red Vs Blue, AVGN, or DBZA.
I have favorite factions (I'd likely have built around Martian Tech Priests as I'm a huge fan of Rush and appreciate that 2112 is a key part of 40k Lore), I read through several of the books in the Horus Heresy (Took a break at Fulgrim, been meaning to start up again). I own Ian Livingston's "Forest of Doom", and it was the first paperback adventure book I ever owned.
Games Workshop successfully killed my interest in buying directly into their product. Even if I didn't like the game itself, I could see myself having bought the odd model of a character I liked so I could have my own collection, each painted as I saw fit. Any time I walk by one of these stores, I stop long enough to appreciate models and architecture on display in the window, then go spend my money on literally _any other hobby._
As for going to alternative stores, I've been unlucky enough to see them all driven out of business, and being disabled, travel is pretty difficult. This is a very high bar for entry, for what is effectively a Chess Club. They clearly have their whales well and truly harpooned. They do not want new customers.
P.S.: I have told this story many times over the years, and every time I've been called a liar. This video is the first vindication I've ever had of this behavior, so if you read this, thank you Josh
Game stores seem to come in waves, a new one might open up near you in a few years.
i found GW far too fan and consumer unfriendly over time.
i switched to Battletech since they still have great lore and, most importantly, support fan projects that arent under their banner
After a long hiatus i went back to collecting warhammer, but yea mostly buy it through 3rd party.
I can remember when Games Workshop had sales, stuff like buy 3 get the cheapest free but thats a long time ago.
i dont speak to GW anymore, but im glad they introduced me to Wyrd and Corvus Belli.
You can just 3D print your own warhammer figs with a relatively small investment. Don’t let some game store or simp guilt you out of it. The files are out there for either cheap or free.
I'm going to disagree with Josh - start with either Gaunt Ghosts or Ciaphas Cain, or Varangatua short stories anthology (which are "noir stories but Warhammer 40k) or even first Gotrek and Felix (if you prefer fantasy over sci-fi).
Yes, first 3 Horus Heresy are solid books, "Fulgrim" (which is the 5th book of HH) is great but HH is (at least from book 1 to book 17 or 18, don't remember where I stopped) kinda uneven series.
And yes - look at places where old books are being sold in your country/area and you might find old codexes (codixices? Whichever is plural of "codex") with cool, 2-4 pages long stories set in Warhammer Fantasy/40k.
Not really related to Games Workshop but I felt it when he said the whole "You ever feel like an outsider at a gaming store?"
Whenever I find a new gaming or geek culture place there's always the "regulars" - who buy nothing but treat the place as a hangout as opposed to a business - who take up the owner's time and focus while all I'm trying to do is buy this comic book and this sticker pack.
Once I actually got interrupted MID TRANSACTION as a regular just casually walked up to the cashier counter and started chatting up the employee, who, to my dismay, was happy to respond and got distracted, ringed me up twice, had to cancel the transaction, did not know how to cancel the transaction on the very outdated system the store had, we sat there for like 10 minutes waiting for the owner to come back from his lunch break only to be like "You press this and this and the transaction is cancelled", and after I had 15 minutes of my life wasted on the cashier being a dummy who treats his job like a fun little escapade they all just went right on back, owner included, to chatting and laughing.
These people should not be allowed to own businesses unless they can prove they can manage it.
1. I have had sales jobs. I was never the top guy. But at least top 3. And I never had any returns. Because I didn't lie or badger people. 2. I was recently in Belfast. Was happy to see a Warhammer store. I wanted to go in and take pictures as a Yank in Ireland. But as my hand reached for the door I stopped. I thought. Nope don't go in. You're gonna get hard sold to death.
It just really bothers me when people act like GW is the only evil company out there with predatory business practices.
I’m NOT saying that what GW does is fine because they aren’t the only ones doing it. But like… on the point of GW stores not letting you play at their tables anymore, for example. That’s not new nor is it unique to official GW stores.
I have two stores near me that do Warhammer stuff. One lets you play at their tables for free, the other requires you to pay a $/hr fee if you want to play at their table. Scummy business tactics are not unique to GW.
Obviously shitty business tactics are, well, shitty. But they are literally everywhere. And if GW doing it stops you from enjoying the hobby then I sincerely wonder how you ever buy anything from any company ever.
Such a scummy take not paying for stuff because of some sort of morale code that the company is bad. When GW isnt the worst of companies lets be honest. So it's just an excuse to excuse your own poor behavior. By not paying GW you're not supporting ANYONE who creates the universe. Scummy.
I worked at Games Workshop HQ as a software engineer, it was an awful experience. I could tell you exactly how it works, and its a bit more complicated than this.
Pls do tell
No you didn't.
Seconding your other replied, I'm in a course to get into the industry.
Would like to hear this, especially to get an idea of what to avoid.
I owned Games Workshop HQ as a retired Navy Seal with two left legs and an inflatable balloon animal. I could tell you exactly how it works, and its a bit more complicated than this.
From account of other people who worked at GW HQ from credible sources I can say for certain your talking horse shit.
Many of these thoughts are reasonable, and the loss of tables to game with is sad - I am of that generation. However, the volume of the GW business that comes from starter sets is much larger than any long-term fan ever seems to understand. Watch Peachy's old stuff. Their salesman style is far too pushy, I agree. But it is undeniably superior for farming money out of the short-term new-gamer market, which is the group that pays to keep the lights on. You might want to imagine a world in which it's more profitable to run the kind place you enjoy, but decades of A/B testing has demonstrated that we simply don't live in that world.
Increasing prices isn't even growth, Josh.
Capitalism works, but you have to innovate and develop things, and open markets. \
We aren't at the point where everyone in the world has a Space Marine figurine. So they still have growth available.
Also I don't know if I am crazy but I personally don't find Warhammer to be as expensive of a hobby as people like to make it out to be.
Yeah sure there are cheaper hobbies but there are also more expensive ones.
The start up cost is pretty high but so is starting most other hobbies.
But I the end I think it's "personal" I don't think your criticism is invalid I just don't share your opinion. Doesn't mean you are wrong though. I am just less bothered by the things that annoy you.
Man I feel hard for the GW trap. I love painting the models but man I do not like the actual tabletop game lmao. Started just having a buddy of mine 3d print me free STLs I can find online so I can paint them without having to blow 50 dollars for 10 units that will never see the tabletop in actual play ever
I remember back when I was 14-15 my local GW would alow us to go game, paint and chill even if we didn't buy much. When I went back 5 or so years later everything had cha ge no community nights no beginner days. I was like wtf. Now I drop in every now and the.n to see what's what. As soon as I walk I say I'm just looking. Don't hit me with the sales bs
There's a FLGS i went to where the owners were nice, and were very involved with their community and hosted lots of 40k/DnD games. It was nice at first. But after a few months it felt (like Josh says) I was always an "outsider" or I was interrupting. I ordered a model for a friend's birthday, called in every weekend to see if it arrived, and after 5 weeks I stopped by the store and the model was on the shelf. Where anyone could have bought it. The final straw was when I ordered some card sleeves and for OVER TWO MONTHS i regularly checked in, and they never showed up.
I went to my other FLGS and they had it the very next weekend.
Nice people, but not great at running a business.
Best lore, worst company.
"I am a massive hypocrite and I'm going to buy those all when they come out"
Yeah... yeah...
I know that feeling lmfao
Just come across this video and it couldnt be more true.
My first experience of GW was being sold the age of sigmar soul wars box that had unit sizes that were not the same as the actual game so i couldnt play with either of the two armies despite spending a lot of money. GW staff didnt tell me this and pushed that box because the store got bonuses for it.
Also agree about local gaming stores. The ones that open in my area always close or do poorly due to bad business decisions or marketing. Lovely people but more hobbyists than entrepreneurs.
I do not like the hard sell. I used to avoid GW stores in the 2000's because the sales reps at my local one would pounce on you the moment you walked through the door.
HOWEVER, I've been visiting a GW store in the South of England and they've been super friendly. They helped my daughter paint a mini and didn't pressure her into buying anything which I was actually pretty surprised about.
LGS near me, that I bought MTG products from a few times, tried to guilt trip me about buying sealed products instead of singles, then said "people like you are what is wrong with this community". Ye nah, never going back to that shit ever again. Don't value me looking to spend money there, don't value the money i have already spent there, and absolutely don't value me as a returning customer.
LGS are in a bit of a tough spot on that front, especially with MTG, because WOTC forces them to buy a certain amount of each product release. If they don't, they won't be able to buy as much of later products and they may lose tournament support. And because WOTC product releases fluctuate between being very desirable and very undesirable, in order to get enough of the desirable product, stores sometimes have to make a loss buying more of the bad product than they can expect to sell. That's why stores are sometimes unhappy about people buying singles, they want to minimise their forced losses. Of course, still bad business to rant about that to customers.
I agree with alot of the points here, but I do also agree that GW put out a generally superior product than alot of its competitors. I shop and play at a local game store that is not GW owned and the community and owners there are very good people So i dont get the GW employee issue as much. Overall I'm happy to pay for their quality , but agree they do need to slow down
Local game stores are infinitely superior to GW stores. My local store owner is super active in the discord and is super friendly and actively discounts things for customers.
Best way a store kept my business was by promising to import the model kit I wanted and call me when it arrived without wanting pre payment or anything.
Guy could tell I wanted it and knew that just getting it in was enough to satisfy me and make that sale. Also the couple running the shop are just down right super friendly. Never felt rushed to make a purchase.
Not about Warhammer, but what game is he playing?
The Elder Scrolls III: Morrowind
Man Josh this one hurts, youre right about a lot, but wrong about equally as much here, this one hurts a lot.
We've had a couple GW stores open near here. They come in, draw a lot of attention, run other FLGS out of business, and then eventually close down because people end up hating them and refuse to go. Eventually you are left with no local store and no GW store.
Yeah I can confirm that over here in the Netherlands the whole "upsell" / "hard sell" / "talk to the customer about getting whatever products until he/she actually buys something" is very much a thing they do as well. And indeed, retailers offer anything I want cheaper AND even through online placed orders (so I don't have any salesman interaction at all) compared to GW themselves. And GW is heavily interested to continue such partnerships because in bulk deals with retailers they are always going to sell more than what actually is in demand even for their less popular stuff.
With that said, the GW stores are still good for other stuff like live painting, playing games, event and tournament info, unique GW exclusive models and deals and the occassional promotional stuff, but... dealing with GW directly you always wonder "what's the catch here and what is literally the cost of me walking out of this door again, can we not come to an agreement that I might just be passively windowshopping today"? Lmao.
Dutchie here, and I have to say this hasn't been my experience. I've only been to my main GW store downtown, and those guys are great. I can just come in, have a chat, play a game, paint a model or just sit there for a bit without any hassle whatsoever. It's the only reason I still buy from GW directly since it helps support those guys and that specific store. The community there is also great, made so many new friends there!! Sucks to hear your experience hasn't been the same. Come to The Hague if you're ever around, hope you'll like it here :)
Why you got facist flag in your pfp then. You a toilet cleaner running away from the front?
I miss the text to speech emperor series, I always rewatch every now and then
GW said "wait this thing is bringing people into our hobby/lore? CAST THEM OUT, BURN THE HERETIC" emperor TTS was where i got my toes wet in 40k lore and caused me to look into some of the history and factions beyond a surface level.
trying to get the siege of terra ltd books broke me somewhere
and i rly dont find it funny
Hearing that description of a Games Workshop store experience (pardon me, Warhammer store) makes me super grateful for Ryan and the staff at the Victoria, BC location. They've always felt super low-pressure when it comes to sales, and I don't think I really appreciated that fact until hearing your description.
The business term is Customer Lifetime Value (CLV). What is your business relationship with your customer long term? If you don't care about this, you end up burning through your customer base.
Fun possible fact: According to WOTC, the expected customer lifetime for MTG is just 2 years.
"Complains about capitalism, has job that only exists because capitalism is so successful."
Oh, wait. He acknowledges the hypocrisy innate in his statement.
Neat, carry on.
We live in a society, literally. What's he gonna do, quit his world and live in the forests?
I'd say the ability to still criticise our society without being slammed by the corporations who have all the money in the world is a freedom that's grossly underappreciated.
I love how this is titled as a "RANT" all in big, capital letters.
And then it's just Josh sitting there, calmly and logically explaining his point of view for 11 minutes.
If only more "rants" were like this.
I learned everything I know about the hobby from the Games Workshop store in Portland, Oregon. The manager there, Tyler, is a great salesman, but puts in the effort to build a relationship with the customer. Always willing to answer questions, help people understand rules, teach you various painting techniques as he used to be into competitive painting. There are a couple tables to play games, and a couple purely for hobbying, and they are always packed every weekend with randos and regulars doing pickup games. The closest thing I ever see him do that could be seen as predatory is asking if you need more glue when checking out. I know this is probably the exception as opposed to the norm, but any game store can be like this. It isn't limited to a Games Workshop store. How the higher ups price and sell miniatures and such is worthy of all sorts of criticism, but just blanket blaming the physical GW stores for the fact they are GW feels ingenuous.
Can confirm, that dude is chill. Hope he’s doing good, I haven’t been back that way in a long time.
Best way to deal with games workshop is to ignore them and buy from a third party these days
You saw two cliff racers in seven seconds. Yep, that's definitely Morrowind.
I didn't get too far into Morrowind, but I immediately know *yup it's that game* when those bloody over-sized seagulls turn up.
Your take on Local gaming stores is remarkably close to a conclusion I came to years ago. I work in the tabletop gaming Industry and have done for 7 years. I do Business to Business sales and am constantly interacting with Retailers, (good shoutouts BTW, Goblin are one of my best customers) but so many stores do not last more than 2-3 years because they are not run like businesses, they're run as a hangout for the owner to play games with their group of friends, and its why so many of the FLGS do not last the 3 year mark.
I only got into warhammer recently and never had any desire to go to a store as I usually order everything I need online. But shortly after the christmas boxes went up for pre order and of course I missed it, I went by my local (northern Germany) GW store to see if they had any. Naturally they didn´t but the salesman was very chill and didn´t push anything on me, but rather recommended some toy stores in my city that dont focus on warhammer, but still might have the boxes, as they often have leftovers, because not many people know they sell warhammer. As far as I could tell the gaming tables were available for regular customers as well, as some dudes showed up while I was talking with the salesman and they just said hey and started playing with their own armies. As I read the comments it seems that experiences like this are exception, but I felt welcome and taken serious, so I will probably return to buy something when I feel like talking about warhammer with some chill people.
i must be pretty luck have a really nice store and the dude who runs it isnt pushy at all, its always really relaxed and chilled and just have a nice chat about stuff
3:53 Went to Gamestop with my friend to pick up the Switch he ordered. We decided to stop and look at the games while we were there. Almost as soon as we started looking, the only employee in the store came over and started trying to "help" us- asking what we're looking for, trying to upsell him on controllers and auxiliary stuff (that he either owns or already ordered online,) and we both felt so stressed an pressured that we ended up buying way less games and other stuff than if they had just left us the fuck alone and let us browse in peace.
If you like the lore, shouldn't you buy the books to directly support the writers who worked on them? Buying resale or downloading PDFs cuts them out, even if you want to shaft the businessmen behind the curtain.
The writers don't get paid royalties, just a flat fee for writing the book, at least according to robbie macniven and josh reynolds. So they already got paid all they're going to for that particular book
Damn I remember my local GW actually allowing games, not just instructional ones... but that was ages ago.
Very interesting points to which i will disagree with.
First yes you can play on the tables with already established players. I got into the hobby at the start of the 10th edition, my friend been here since 8th. I got a few academy games in a many different hobby shops but then i went to the main and only Warhammer official store in my city. And they fully allowed me to bring my friend and play a few games, so far i have played 4 games of 40k there and about 10 games of kill team with many different people.
Second thing is buying. If you are playing an army that has easily to buy things? Sure you can buy them from the hobby shops. I play adeptus custodes, half of my fucking army is in resin. Meaning forge world. Meaning no hobby shops is buing forge world bec they don't get discounts on such things. And if you want such models for Tau, Space Marines, Chaos, Tyranids you will always have to buy them from the Games Workshop. Unless you want to 3d print them but then you won't be allowed to many tournaments.
Third, never have been feeling badly, nor preassured into buying something, the workers and manager who i come to know over time always been good, love to either paint, put lessons on how to paint certain things for completely free, discuss lore or talk about the rules. Never have once ive been preassured to buy something and many times they have been telling me to even buy instead of a few paints to buy one bigger discounted paint pack bec its cheaper or straight up been telling me about some valleho colours that are better than GW and to use AK Army interactive technical stuff bec it cost less than GW stuff, its better, and you have lot more.
Forth, I've been to many local store all around my city and i never had to go to the table and ask for help, so maybe thats only you thing. Also every shop has its own name and brand here and every employee has a special shirt with a name so that makes things easier, but when going to GW store you will know who works there and who does not.
Overall interesting things to hear about and agree or disagree.
10:52 *HE'S LITERALLY ME*
It is also ridiculous to me how protective they are of their ip, considering 40k is one of the most stolen properties out there. Tyranids are just xenomorphs from alien, tau is just gundam, necrons are jusy the terminator. The list goes on.
That's exactly why: Takes one to know one. When you're a thief, you see everyone as a thief.
Tyranids are Arachnids from the Starship Troopers novella.
@darthkek1953 also that. Another ripoff
@@badrhetoric5637 so, you think Heinlein invented them? How about the 1902 (yes!) film A Trip to the Moon? L. Frank Baum's 1904 novel? Olaf Stapledon's 1937 novel?
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Insectoids_in_science_fiction_and_fantasy
@darthkek1953 no I'm saying GW also ripped off Starship troopers as well as alien. GW ripoff a lot of properties.
I loved going into Games workshop to look at the new models, hated when the staff approached me. Always so pushy
I knew a guy who worked there and he would get a talking to if he didn't aggressively push customers to buy
This might be a locally dependant thing. Our local GW store isnt pushy at all and we play there all the time.
It is local, but also back in the day I think almost every GW store was friendly but corporate HQ really has pushed the managers over time to be pushy. Many former workers have talked about it. Lizard of Doom has been very articulate about it.
what game is that?
check out 9th age
"Walked into a local gaming store, and felt like your an outsider" yeah. 😢 it really sucks. Cause they got some cool stuff. But i felt like i was intruding or smth. Tho the owner of one of them was really cool.
The only GamesWorkshop/Warhammer Store within a 4 to 6 hour drive for me (40 minute drive), has ZERO tables to play on. They have a demo set up, like, a small one, but thats it. When I first went in, I expected like 3 or 4 game tables (shop space is small, but thought theyd promote the play of their games), but nope. I really only ever go there if none of the local shops have the paint im looking for. Also, I buy my kits at LGS, because 15% off.
Also, their hours are horrible, 10-5 (or 11-5), only has one person working and is closed for like 45 minutes around noon (even though the sign says 30 minutes), and closed on sunday and monday.
I'll always remember the day I meet a lot of the staff from GW, the "Metallica Guy", etc... at GamesCon Barcelona. Those guys were fucking awesome, like passionate, humble, kind..... I had seen them in my monthly White Dwarf every month for years already at that time, and seeing them in the flesh was unreal. It's been 20 years since then.... OMG!!!! I can tell you, whatever GW becomes it started as few guys that loved what they were doing. FML I bought my first miniature in 1993 LOOL!!!
So, I have a local gw store where the manager used to be that way, and he transitioned very quickly into the enjoyable experience type and sales tripled. We hate the prices, but we like the guy, and the FLGS in town not only sells stuff at full msrp, despite paying less, they will also sell older pre-owned unbuilt boxed sets at full msrp. Last time I went in, I know for a fact they had a lumineth realm lords army set at msrp that they purchased several months prior. I know they've sold a pre-owned burning of prospero set at full msrp as well. And a pre-owned Indomitus boxed set(with half the models) At over msrp. (It was 60% total msrp for half the box, so 60+60=120>100). So everyone goes to the gw store.
Listening to the GW shop stuff made me really happy with my local gw shop. Very friendly, very easy going, tables open to everyone. Their primary goal is to get you to play, not to sell. They've told me the same that you said. They sell much more by making their shop a hangout place.
Yup. Pleasurable buying experience and I'll come back. Was just at a restaurant and we really liked the food. Then we got the bill and we realised that the waiter had pretty much chosen the most expensive whine available when we asked for a recommendation.
Was this our fault? Of course it was. 100%. We should have checked the price before we just accepted his recommendation. We were a group of people and didn't think of it.
However, I went from thinking that this is a place that I must visit again, to thinking that I'm never coming back.
Will I survive? Yes. absolutely. Don't feel sorry for me. You can even point and laugh. I don't mind. This restaurant has, however, lost a customer.
Oh yeah, I go to a hobby store so it's not juuuuust WH40K otherwise ooof. They have a calendar for when people can play horus heresy, 40k, fantasy, etc. I don't ever want to go to a GW shop lol.
Something else is putting the codex on the app behind a paywall, then someone has to spend $60 for the codex to get the code to put into the app for it to unlock.
Around $220 for the deathwing box for Dark Angels, but it sold out. People like me (yep ima hypocrite 😭 )keep buying it and so they'll keep doing it.
Looking for a place to play in person? Forget the game stores. Check your local library services. I just started playing with a rotating D&D group that meets at my local library tech center. They have private study and conference rooms. I don't know why it never occurred to me to use this.
Tbh these days I often forget libraries are still a thing. It's probably because of that that you're able to get rooms easily.
@@yurisei6732 it may not be the best way to find a group, but it's a good way to find a venue and other resources. My library even has 3D printers available.
I understand the opinion of not liking GW, I respect it, You're fine to do that. I personally like GW products, I like their minis but I never play GW games I will always play one page rules.
But I disagree HARD with the book statement. If you buy the book you're supporting Guy Haley or Robert Rath or whoever wrote the book, more than Games Workshop. You are telling them you want more lore in book form over campaign document form.
So yeah buy the books please.
If You want to pirate the rule books go ahead. You want to make 3D prints of stuff that is very similar to GW and can be played in a GW game Go ahead. (But in my opinion it's really messed up to pirate something that is a GW model currently in production) But please just buy the $10 book.
This pretty much echoes my exact feelings about GW and 40k. The problem the stores have is they're trying to sell a product these days. Back when I started 40k, about 10,000 years ago before Horus rebelled, it didn't feel like I was being sold miniatures; it felt like I was being sold a community and a hobby. I realise they are, and always have been, trying to sell miniatures and paints but that's a bad pitch imo. The fact that the minis look cool and the game is fun are definitely bonuses but I stuck with 40k for so long because of the community there was in my local GW. I helped kids learn how to play, paint etc then watched them grow up into adults. They may not have bought hundreds worth of plastic the first time they walked in but they bought THOUSANDS over the years. I'd wager I've spent tens of thousands myself over the years if you were to total it up. If I'd gone into a modern GW at age 12 I don't think I'd have returned at all.
I've only been to one Games Workshop store, and the owner runs it herself and is thankfully nothing like the people you've described. I have only ever bought things from GW direct I think maybe 5 times, and 2 of those were for paint my LGS was out of, and the other 3 were hard to get models that were being scalped well beyond GW prices online. Luckily, my LGS is run by a guy with both a great personality, and is extremely knowledgeable about the business side of things.
But yes, if you are going to play Warhammer, or any GW game, get your products through 3rd party sellers, and if they have PayPal, you can do payin4 to make it even more reasonable. People have gaslit prospective players into believing that they can't afford to play, and for most people I promise that that is not true. I quit buying MTG products, which are insanely priced, and found I could get an army(or 3) in Warhammer, and save money in the process.
I will never understand how ppl think: Company bad, therefore IP bad... You dont need to support the company to enjoy the IP I literally play Ascension WoW bcuz I dont like what blizzard is doing. Always a loophole when it comes to enjoying things from companies kids.
For book recommendations, frankly all the books I've read have been good but I'll also throw up Baneblade and Shadowsword (Two books about the commander of superheavy tanks of the same name) and the Dark Imperium trilogy (Guiliman VS Mortarion). Dante and Invasion of Baal are also great.
Back in 2004 - 2010, I believe 6th edition and 7th edition. They would have 4 - 6 massive gaming spaces at ALL times for anyone to come in or book the tables to play a few games. Until recently they have completely off limits. This completely stopped me from buying anything at all from games workshop, just being in the store playing i would constantly grab little things like paints brushes drill bits etc, not to mention the occasional model. You are exactly right they've turned people away in droves.
I remember my last experience in a GW store was in 2007 to buy a model for my Possessed warband for Mordheim. The rep was helpful, but in making conversation I mentioned that the group I was playing with were (self-described) PhD nerds. The rep then thought I was calling HIM a nerd and then he got all defensive and started talking about all the cool things he does outside of GW. It was pretty funny.
Some good 40K books, The Infinite and the Divine, Eisenhorn, and Helsreach. The Infinite and the Divine is a ton of fun and made me love the Necron. Also check out the audiobooks. Amazing experience.
Because of games like Dawn of War and Space Marine i was always interested in 40k but Warhammer Total war really hit me and when I found out that the actual game was replaced by AoS i was disappointed because by that time i was captivated by the WHFB lore and really wanted to get a Vampire Counts army fast forward a few years and they're actually bringing back Old World I'm super hyped!!
just that they've decided to cancel they Vampires... which is the final nail in the coffin for me
Part of the Games Workshop licensing policy is also why Total war Warhammer series have some bizzare design decisions throughout all 3 games. Same thing with Wizard of the coast with D&D licensing. As capitalism enters its end stage you will see more and more of your favourite products and IP undergo a transformation as everything is monetized and monetized poorly and thoughtlessly for quick short term profit. I know Josh is dripping with sarcasm when he said "capitalism bad" but it's true.
Last time I bought anything from a Games Workshop, the one in Bolton, was just after the pandemic. I used to paint the LOTR miniatures when i was a teen and fancied giving it another go. The guy who served me was actually really helpful. He didn't try to force anything on me. That said, I knew what I wanted specifically so maybe that's why. But he was really friendly, he even gave me a free miniature to practice on because I'd mentioned being out of practice and a little nervous about picking the hobby back up. I'd go back if i fancy something else to paint but if I'd had the treatment you've described, I probably wouldn't go back.