Objective Analysis on the Variant Civ Name Controversy
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 11 ก.ค. 2024
- The Variant Civilizations of Jeanne d'Arc, Order of the Dragon, Empire of Jade, and Sultan's Army has caused some discourse about their names and how they fit in Age of Empires 4. Let's explore this debate objectively.
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🐦 • Twitter ➜ / agenoob
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0:00 - Intro
0:33 - Summary of Variant Civs
1:04 - Issue I: The Civ Variants are Only a Reskin
1:38 - Issue II: AoE4 is Becoming Fantasy Heavy
3:05 - Issue III: Variant Civs' Names Need to be Changed
3:41 - Polls from Official Forum & Reddit
4:16 - Age of Noob's Poll on Variant Civs' Names
4:58 - Dissecting Voting Behavior
5:23 - General Poll on the DLC as a Whole
6:02 - Discussion on Poll Results
7:16 - New Name Suggestion for Jeanne d'Arc
7:44 - New Name Suggestion for Sultan's Army
7:57 - New Name Suggestion for Empire of Jade
8:02 - New Name Suggestion for Order of the Dragon
8:10 - Summary of New Name Suggestions
8:44 - Final Comments on the Naming Issue
9:44 - Conclusion
10:11 - Outro
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Tags: #AgeofNoob #AoE4 #SultansAscend
rts, age of empires 4, gameplay, review
empire of jade, sultan's army, jeanne d'arc, order of the dragon - เกม
Hello everyone! A few callouts:
1) This was my final video on the road, as I will be returning back home this weekend.
2) The Devs have just announced that they will have an update on this topic next week, which is great news. I already completed editing the video before the announcement was made, but all of my points and suggestions still stand - which is why I still decided to go ahead and upload this nevertheless.
As mentioned at the end of the video, please choose to be kind and non-abrasive when you engage in discussions with players you disagree with. You may even disagree with me in this video as well. That's completely fine. I simply ask you to keep things civil, and ignore the trolls who like to rile things up.
Hope you're all ready for the plethora of exciting announcements coming your way as we build up the hype towards the launch on November 14th!
Well done for calling for a friendlier community. That said I think a lot of the feedback has been super positive about the expansion :). The names bother me but so so so excited that I don't really care. It's people's only gripe. That's such a good sign about the dlc.
That sounds good, from what I've heard people really like the DLC just find the names stupid. I've yet to see anyone boycotting the dlc because of it. I hope relic takes this as a nudge in the right direction, I cant imagine them being especially married to "sultans army" :D tho someone might be adamant about "empire of jade"
@@carlpult5235 Yeah, for me it's only the overly generic "Sultan's Army" and the person "Jeanne d'Arc" that bother me. "Emperor of Jade" depends on what they have in store and I actually like the "Order of the Dragon" as it informs many people about something not as well known
@@annaairahala9462 For me it's Empire of Jade. We ain't got an Empire of Jade, ever. It ain't even generic or a person or the name of an order. It's completely fictional.
Screw Jeanne d'Arc, just switch teams and name them the Burgundians!
It is a problem. Most of the original civilizations are either historical states (Delhi Sultanate, Abbasid Dynasty, HRE) or are based on a specific period of history (the "English" are obviously post-Norman, the "Chinese" are explicitly Tang through Ming dynasties). But these variant names are all over the place. Empire of Jade appears to be entirely made up. House of the Dragon refers to a rather obscure military order. Sultan's Army is ridiculously generic. Sultanates existed from Spain to Indonesia. I am sure most of them had an army. And Jeanne d'Arc is a person. Not a civilization.
English from feudal onward is after the Norman’s, dark age England is Anglo-Saxon England as much as it doesn’t make sense.
The HRE was not a state either.
@@sagittariusa9012 Yes it was, at times even a unified state, and at times even an empire.
@@jarlwilliam9932 No it wasn't. Its easy to search for.
@@sagittariusa9012 Yes it was, if you can’t explain your position then perhaps you shouldn’t make an argument. Before Charlemagne’s death it was a relatively unified empire which would in fact make it a state, even after his death and split up of the empire, the HRE remained an intact state.
For Jeanne d'Arc the better name would be "House of Valois", the French Dynasty who fought the Hundred Years War
Jeanne d'Arc might be a good name. Maybe it's focused around Jeanne d'Arc and her aura of effect
They could do another "Sultan's Army" and name it "Maid's Army", "Virgin's Army" or "Army of Jeanne d'Arc"
Still silly, it can't be this focused on a hero, why not someting like, " french revolt", or "revolutionary France"
@@oOMcMarvOo bruh what how is Joan related to revolutionary france
@@andredepadua8799 Bro, imagine the poor bastard playing as the "Virgin Army" in a tournament. 🤣
I’m looking forward to the dlc and the civ variants are a great idea, I just think the names aren’t consistent; Sultans army is nebulous, Jeanne d’arc is extremely historically specific, order of the dragon is similar in that regard but a bit broader and the empire of jade seems both nebulous and historically questionable. Compared to the names for the base civilisations that represent a common culture and historical group of peoples over a prolonged period of time, it’s just a strange decision. I’m sure the DLC will contextualise the names perfectly but I think until then or we hear some reasoning from the devs, it will remain contentious.
I think what you present here is more or less it. Most of us are excited for the DLC, we just want some sort of namimg convention, a logical consistency, a system to how the civs are named.
Sure there is a lot of people who dislike the names for wrong reasons and also a lot of people who call others names for making criticsm but these people are just the extremes.
I think most people are happy with the DLC news so far besides this concern which could be clarified or addressed easily.
Exactly. Some people should go touch grass for a couple of days to vent out their basement negativity. Just find something to do other than arguing online before the DLC lands.
1.I loved your video
2.I will buy the new DLC
3.I'm expecting new Variant Civ names
1. Yes
2. Already done
3. Dont care myself
❤
Interesting. The non-discussed NDA Empire of Jade was my biggest gripe, so if that's got something more to it, I may possibly be satisfied.
I still stand by my original thoughts that I would *prefer* a name like Mamluk Sultanate over Sultan's army or maybe something Orleans or Valois based for Jeanne.
I won't know for sure until I get my hands on it anyway, but the content looks promising!
The issue with Empire of Jade is that I cannot suggest a proper name myself, because that would give away too much info I think. I erred on the side of caution and decided not to make a suggestion just in case. :)
@@AgeofNoob No worries! What is important is that the devs know they have options, even if we don't know the specifics yet.
Also thinks Empire of Jade is the worst offender here. Others are name of historic organizations and characters. But what does Empire of Jade supposed to mean? It's a name that should appear in likes of Heroes or Warhammer Fantasy,
@@AgeofNoobJin Dynasty here we come 😁
Saints of Orléon - boom. Done.
Thank you for all your hard work putting this together, you described the situation well and fairly :) I am still very excited for the expansion, all its content, including the variants. I am interested to see what the devs end up doing regarding the names. I have largely said all that I can say at this point, and I am excited to see the future of AoE4 as they overcome this issue.
Cheers mate. Since we heard back from the Devs, stay tuned for next week. 👍🏻
If a user doesn't care either way, it will make no difference to them whether they change it or not. Therefore, it would be better to focus on those who truly care, whether positively or negatively (as in my Reddit poll). I understand that it makes sense for you to attract more players.
Imagine that in the poll, there are 70% who don't mind whether the names are changed or not, and approximately 25% who want a change (5% who like it). Even though they are the minority, making a change won't affect the 70% because they are indifferent, but the 25% will be more comfortable.
By the way, many people voted in the Reddit poll about their opinion on the DLC without knowing the names of the variant civilizations.
Good take on this issue. Can't agree more.
As a Chinese Ive never heard of the term "empire of jade before"
may be you should read more book... it's not because they are unknown than it's doesn't exist ... in book we can learn a lot about old story ... les vainqueurs écrivent l'histoire... dont forget it... x')
@@taniadescoteaux5577 Dude, just because there’s some historical French names in game doesn’t mean empire of jade are historical. The developers lack of knowledge in Chinese history are widely known in the Chinese community just like you. I collect ancient Chinese arms and armour so I believe I know lot more than the regular European or American person, and I can assure you as far as I know although jade was and is still highly prized, it was never used to describe a dynasty or any power in Chinese history. It’s probably some stupid westerners lack of understanding that led to this name, just like the famous chukonu that was never intended to be used as a military weapon. So please, don’t comment to read books on something you don’t know.
@nicholasthegreatogreking1036 Agreed sir. This game is extremely historically inaccurate. Western civs mostly don't suffer from this, but all non western civs do. For example Rus campaign is built entirely around moscowian duchy and its history, while being almost entirely historically inaccurate and ignoring wider Rus history which started from Kyiv and Vikings starting to rule it.
@@taniadescoteaux5577He is right, there are no Jade Empire in Chinese history. Things about jade, like jade army, jade general, jade this, jade that, only exist in westerners’ imagination.
It’s just strange for a game that was specific enough to choose the Delhi Sultanate for a Civ to then have something as generic as the Sultan’s Army.
I like the variant civ idea. Im also in the camp that doesnt like the names and think they sound like fantasy rts names. Would have rather liked they used something like Bohemia, Mameluke Sultanat and so on.
I agree that "Jeanne d'Arc" for a name isn't great... but more importantly, what I'm puzzled about is that it sounds like a DLC about the crusade... so I would have expected a variant of the French like the House of Hauteville or something of that sort... but evidently I'm missing something. Great vid anyways!
Maybe they will change something in the old campaigns to use it.
Yes maybe
As a luxembourger, you got me at the House of Luxembourg. Also, congratulations on making an opinion video with this level of nuance.
I actually lived in Luxembourg for a little while myself. Beautiful country.
You also got me with the flag :D@@AgeofNoob
I discovered you recently searching content for the new dlc and i must say, I like your commentary, its style and tone and your voice sounds nice. Also appreciate the kindness plus the attempts to spreae kindness. I personally am hyped about the dlc, especially about the variant civs, how they play. Definitely gonna stick around and come back for new information about the dlc. Greetings 😊
Thanks for the vid aon!
IMHO there are two reasons why the backlash vs the civ names is so large:
1. It's easy to change
2. They suggest odd civs
1 - it's one thing to demand a proper scenarioeditor, more civs etc but even the most childish redditor knows that that's sort of a lot work. Whereas changing the name of a civ might just take an intern one afternoon. So the threshold to demand it is very very low.
2 - this issue should be resolved on reveal so if the devs made good variant civs it should not remain problematic.
Your overview helped a lot with evaluating that and here is my revaluation:
Mamluk empire is a much better name, there might be some stigma floating around keeping other games from naming their empire that but it's a good name for a solit concept. In general ayyubid dynasty would probably be better but I'm certain people would mistake it for abbasids.
So it really is a Jeanne d'arc civ? Why? The is a campaign about it? You could make it... armagnac? Still i think this is an unneeded civ concept hiding behind a worse name.
Order of the dragon is actually ok, it's just odd that they would go for a relatively obscure order that was mainly an alliance of leaders, rather than one that actually took territory and fielded own armies. It's just an odd concept with a name that sounds silly but IS OK
I've heard a lot of "it's the jin" around so I assume it's a decent civ concept especially as games are starved for non monolithic depictions of china(in the middle ages). The devs just need to return that name to the workshop.
i love how you are always sensible and respectful. keep up the good work, man!
As I said previously, I'm a bit mixed on the names presented no-context (fully on board with "Order of the Dragon", at least), but I fully acknowledge I'm more confused than upset. I'm glad that an explanation is coming soon.
read more history@@thegorn
My first impression when it was revealed that this dlc would focus around the crusade, was that they were going to add some crusader states.
With this in mind, since the arabs used to call the crusaders as Franks, my first thought when they revealed that there were 4 new variant civs was that the French variant would be a crusader state.
For example it could have been the Kingdom of Gerusalem or the Principality of Antioch.
The HRE one in my opinion is fine, they were crusaders after all (hussite), but maybe they could change it to the Teutonic Order or the Livonian Order which are way more famous and actually had a state.
As for the Abbassid one, I like you suggestion. Other possibilities would the Al-Andalus or some other barbary states.
As for the Chinese one, I never heard of the Empire of Jade and also doing some reasearch i couldn't find much so I guess I will wait.
PS It all heavily depends on the campaign structure
I like the idea of civ variants, the names just seemed to generic. Empire of jade and order of the Dragon straight up felt like fantasy, but I looked them up and learned of a order I haven’t heard of. But the Empire of Jade pulled up a Xbox game. Maybe it’s a crossover(jk)
Thank you for this video age of noob!
Coming to your channel after a hard day om the internetts is always feel like coming to a small piece of heaven.
Calm, relaxing and overall friendly attitude of both you the content creators and as a result, your fanbase.
Much like father like son saying.
I do think there is something to Like content creator like fanbase.
Amazing video, you put everything into perspective perfectly!
HEYY! im super happy you used the bloody river on 2:23 , its a mod of mine thank you for using it ! :)
Thank you for creating the mod!
@@AgeofNoob No problem! i also made cherno-river , check it out ;)
i like your vids btw!
cheers!
-marcoxd
Great video, analysis and commentary. Thank you
The only one I have problem is with Empire of Jade. Because Empire of Jade sounds like a generic fantasy name for a generic East Asia setting. Is like make a generic Mesoamerican nation and call it Empire of Gold.
in fact dynasty of Jade was real... just read some book you will find their history... dont use google , their story are to unknown ... like Order of the Dragon wikipedia doesnt have a lot of informaiton on them... so go on the library =)
@@taniadescoteaux5577 Bro i live in Brazil. IN BRAZIL. i don't gonna find anything in my library about an obscure Chinese dynasty.
I can think about Qin Shi Huang, because he was obsessed with jade and elixir of immortal life.
I have major in history. But because I f*** Brazilian all my... Book... Are... About... Brazilian... History... And the shit... That happened... In the world... How let... Brazil... Be... What... is... Now... So don't be... a f... prick... And write... Like this... Way... Trying... to be... A smart... As...
I don't like the concept of civ variants in the first place. I'd rather get one new civ representing a civilisation we don't yet have, instead of four variants of already existing civs.
I like the idea of variant civilisations from a gameplay point of view, but I wish they had been given more historical names, these names sound more fitting for a fantasy based RTS and is thus potentially immersion ruining. They could have used name of Similar Civilisations, such as Umayyad Caliphate in place of Abbasid Caliphate, and Jin Empire/Jin Dynasty in place of China. I.e, names that show the link to the original base civilisation but play somewhat differently.
EDIT: They changed names in AoE 3 including civ names like Iroquois to Haudenosaunee and Sioux to Lakota for purposes of historical accuracy, so why not do it for AOE 4 as well?
Problem with the Cinese it their core mechanics: that is the Dinsties, Song is one of the 4 dinasties represented by the "Chinesse" civilization.
@@citamcicak youre right, they can instead call the variant, "Jin Dynasty"
You are doing more than an excellent job! Thanks
As someone who only has the game because of gamepass and is decently casual about it and history, i like house of dragon, jade empire. Jeanne d'arc is weird because it's one person, but if there's some sort of hero unit modeled after the person, maybe it works.
For those 3 i can handle them because there are specific points of history they relate to. These are variants, so specific small stetchez of time make more sense.
Sultan's Army is vague. All that would have to be done is name the sultan this variant is about.
The key part of the names is that it is real history and relates to the functions of the variants. As we don't know how they function yet, we should wait for more details before griping.
It’s almost as though they forgot the name of the actual game “age of EMPIRES” joan of arc wasn’t an empire.
5:10 Rollercoaster tycoon Amazing game :).
Congratulations for the very nice flags!
Absolutely agree with your takes in this video. You summarized my concerns perfectly.
Great video! Am very excited for the DLC, and love the idea of variant civs but voted "dislike" on the names based on what little I know. I like your idea for a possible solution. cheers
I like the idea of using "house of" for the varients. Its a key inducator if its a full civ or varient
You don't have idea how much i love this channel
you are a smart guy. Thanks for (hopefully) clearing some of the noise
I read this with your pinned comment in mind.
And I agree with your video message whole heartedly.
As someone who is just mainly super happy that we get such a big update I immediately embraced everything, including the civ names.
Jean d'Arc is as iconic as it gets so I didnt have a problem with knowing that everyone would recognize it as french ( and with her as hero unit- most likely - it would make sense to name the civ after her since you can literally command Jean d'Arc everytime play the civ ).
But I underestimated how much this actually annoyed our fellow Aoe4 enthusiasts.
Since I wouldnt mind a name change, I am all for it if lets the sizeable portion of players who feel negatively about it enjoy the DLC more.
Looking forward to how this gets resolved and we can back to focusing on the actual content of the dlc.
I am so hyped for this expansion and already preordered it because I want this Aoe4 journey to keep going.
Thanks to the devs for listening, microsoft for staying strong behind this IP and ofc to our community as a whole who keep this going ( especially reasonable and constructive content creators like AgeOfNoob ).
My issue with the choices for the civ variants is that they don't really fit into AoE4 thematically. The general theme of them (sub groups within the faction they're a split of) seem more in line with Command and Conquer (see Brotherhood of Nod x Marked of Kane) than with Age of Empires. In my opinion, a more appropiate set of choices would be nations historically related to the "main" civilization, either being an antecessor or successor (like the Ayyubid Dynasty to the Abbassid Dynasty, like you suggested) or smaller but still independent groups that are offshots of the main one (like the crusader states, some minor powers like Burgundy or the knightly orders* like the Teutonic Knights or the Templars)
*Note: while the Order of the Dragon does fit the "knightly order" part, I don't think they should be the variant for the HRE. They are much more closely associated with the Kingdom of Hungary than with the HRE, and their most famous campaigns were in Eastern Europe
Omg I'm here for the animated chickens and animated horses in the buildings! I was so surprised when the game came out and they didn't move!
Overwhelming excited about the expansion. It will be great. The developers are doing great and so many people in the community are excited. Just yea, please change the names of the variant civs lol ❤
Haha AoN, don't think I don't see you using those Roller Coaster Tycoon people faces! 😆 nice touch
RC2 has a special place amongst us. :)
I'm a Chinese, and I've never heard of the name the Empire of Jade. I wish the names to be historically grounded.
I don't know how the variant civ for China plays, but if the faction is more cavalry focused then naming it the 'Liao Dynasty' or 'Jin Dynasty' would be a great choice as these dynasties only ruled over northern China in the Middle Ages & their rulers were originally steppe nomadic tribes.
If the faction is more infantry/stealth focused then naming it 'The Red Turbans' or 'White Lotus Society' would be a great choice as both of these organizations were involved in rebelling against the Mongol-led Yuan Dynasty in the 14th century.
I don't know what the specific gameplay is like for the Chinese variant but 'Empire of Jade' gives the impression that their unique unit is a panda & their unique resource is orange chicken.
I would suggest a Chinese variant named Mulan's Elite Forces or Middle Chinese(534-907), starts from dynasty Wei, continues to Qi, Zhou, Sui, ends in Tang. Still Chinese but in an earlier age, and within the aoe4 time range.
This video really highlights the crux of the issue. Well summarized! I'm excited for the new expansion and what the devs decide to do about the variant names
I thought that Civ variants be like:
Franks instead of French (add Axe thrower and few things)
Teutonic Order instead of HRE (add Teutonic Knight and few things)
Seljuk Empire instead of Abbasids (horse archer instead of camel archer and few things)
With China it's kinda hard, we already have dynasty system so idk....
"Add" i mean we can change and mix stuff. Like Franks may have axe thrower instead of Arbalest and Teutons will have Teutonic Knights instead of knights with small aoe attack but will lack Landsknecht etc.
Wait wait wait. 😂 The Franks are not a Celtic people, but a Germanic people that had their core area and origins in the Rhine Main area, where the modern Franconians currently live. The Franks had a Germanic language and culture and were not a Romance ethnicity.
@@theodoreroosevelt3143The Franks conquered the territory of France, but did not come from there, they only ruled over this country. Charlemagne, for example, comes from Aachen and his capital was there.
@@gyrosaze1173 at it's peak France, HRE and north of Italy was all one big country.
It's historical fantasy we don't need to believe that drummer on a horse will play music so good that you get less damage from a sword hit
@@theodoreroosevelt3143 yes but the Franks are not Celtic and not romanish, they are Franks. They conquered this areas.
Too blinded by the greek fire rams to think about names
Will cover those specifically very soon!
8:01 What’s interesting is that the Chinese character on the flag of NDA civ is the exact same as the Chinese character for the Song Dynasty of China. Interesting. I know you can’t discuss much detail on this topic, but this seems to hint at something deeper than what’s been revealed publicly so far.
Ah another thing i guess that people got confused with because it kinda was teased as "crusaders".
I could imagine that people also maybe wanted Teutons, Templars and Knights Hospiltaler.
I kinda thought it would be something like that.
Yeah, everyone expected them to directly tie into the campaign, so we threw around a dozen options for crusades-related factions.
And it's easy to imagine a civ that is built on a historical state which represents an extension of a wider culture. Thus the Holy Orders made a lot of sense, as would the Crusader States of Jerusalem and Antioch.
So what we got is very confusing and doesn't seem to tie into the expansion's themes nor fit together as similar groups.
It seems you cannot make crusaders because you have to play as arab to defend and reconquer jerusalem....for westerns like me can be strange but it can be quite interesting point of viee
Apart from the Video Title seeming weird to me (including "objective" always makes me think Its Not) - great Video;)
Cant wait for more Info on These civs ^^^
Thanks for the fine analysis ^^
Anyone else recognized that Knights of Honor Soundtrack at 7:19 ?😯 unexpectet but appreciated. One of the best OSTs there is❤
It'd be great if the official forum could allow players to vote and express their thoughts on individual names 😊 Eg. Sultan's Army -- what do you think about it? Hate it/ dislike/ like/ love it etc. And a box that allows alternative suggestions.
It would be a wonderful moment of the community to come together and own this beautiful DLC. Great job devs!! 😊❤
The thing is, the name order of the dragon is fine, as it directly points toward a historical organisation. Jeanne d'arc name may require a certain alternation. Maybe present it in a way such as companions of Jeanne d'Arc or Valois loyalist. The last two require ovehaul as it was too generic and vague as to what exactly is it pointing towards. Just what exactly is Empire of Jade? There is no reference to anything in Chinese History that is called the Empire of Jade, Just what exactly is it pointing towards?. As for the Sultan's army, the leader of Abbasid is referred to as the caliph, it was the Seljuk Turk who first adopted the name sultan. My guess is this variant is referring to Salahdin's dynasty considering the crusade theme of the campaign. But naming it Salahdin dynasty or the mamluk sultanate would make more sense.
Just to nitpick, the Ghaznavids used the sultan title decades before the Seljuks.
@@NimrocSorry, you are correct, I made that mistake.
I was super excited actually, especially for Order of the Dragon
Order of the Dragon is one of my favorites.
The concept is cool, there's just the small detail about the names luckily should be easy to fix
Good video. We are very pleased with the DLC, the pricing, the content and the development effort.
We are not pleased with the weird marketing campaign and the variant civ faction names as they break with convention and also decrease immersion.
who is we?
I think him and your mom
wonderfull
I was getting very tried of aggresive talk about it.
I really care more about the game mechanics
If changing something, I would rather improve the replay viewer and add the rewind(!) buttons.
About your poll though. How many people do we think honestly LOVE the names rather than just voting "against" the people complaining.
I have yet to see anyone talking about it that actually prefers these specific names over others.
Also that poll for the whole DLC was BEFORE people knew the specific civ names. Not that I think the names are the most important thing in regards to the expansion.
The variants will be awesome, I think the people complaining these variant arent very historical just need to study more and remember that these civs were not monocultues that only ever did one thing in their long histories. But also Age of Empires is about whatifs, whatif japan invaded Europe, whatif the Mali came out of Africa to conquer instead of just visiting mecca etc etc. Ill burn any french lady with God visions anyday so whatever lets goo. Empire of Jade? Do we get treasure ships or a Manchu focused variant? There are a lot of legitmate historical couldbe's and im here for it.
Vlad II, was also know as Vlad Dracul in reference to the Order of the Dragon in with he too part, but he is not nearly as know today as his son Vlad III, known as Vlad Tepes (tepes=impaler), that was also called Vlad Dracul for the same reason as his father.
Regarding the ‘spotlight’ issue. As you mentioned people don’t know anything about the civs yet, so it’s not surprising they are focusing on pretty much the only thing they do know.
When more info comes out I’m sure the spotlight will shift
People are actually mad over these names not being historically accurate? did they forget we had nessie and the boogie man a few months ago?
Really enjoy your balanced take in all this.
Can you say why we even need variant civs? If the flavour of 1400s French isnt fully hit by the design of actual French, then why do we need a second civ trying to achieve the same, and not enhance French flavour instead? Same goes for the other civs. I think many people also feel not really getting the point of variant civs, over adding totally new civs with new historical coverage. Variant civs feel like from an alternate game mode where you can customize your civ and then battle against other custom civs to see who has done best, but to have them in the standard game feels like diluting the well-pronounced historical differences and flavour between the civs we have right now. I think it battles a general question that was ought to make aoe4 different from aoe2, and that is fewer civs but richer in identity and differences. Now adding four twin civs, changes that feel of a well-rounded approach to the general game design.
Agree. it's a scam of lazy workers.
At its core, variant civs exist because they're cheaper, easier, and faster to make. Age of Empires 4 kinda shot itself in the foot by making civilizations to ridiculously detailed that it's a very expensive exercise to add a brand new civ. For example, Voicelines alone are recorded per age, per unit type, per terrain, and per gender. This is obviously amazing attention to detail, but an incredible amount of work.
I would've been okay with either approach (i.e. no variants or variants), but I 100% see the value in adding variants. It will keep the game fresh and enjoyable without large breaks. Players were complaining about no new content for a long time, so variants will likely be easier additions to the game while they work on larger projects, such as campaigns and new standalone civs.
I personally appreciate the concept of variant civs.
When you like playing as Abbasid for example, but you are tired of doing the same build orders again and again if you are playing competitively, it could be a real refreshment to have approximately the same civ with minor tweaks which allow you to feel comfortable with some exciting differences. Moreover, it is also a way to compensate the difficulties players are feeling in some matchups.
If you do not want to talk about esport, we can just say that historically you don’t like the Abbasid caliphate but you prefer the architecture, culture or army of the Ayyubid dynasty, even though they are not that different
But then why not change the abbasids so they have more real branches to choose and not just one viable path and the rest of the options arent just imaginary.@@NolmanZ
That makes sense, but then I would have prefered it to be a somehow more marked as an event-type of thing, but not an official civ that is on the same level as the big civs. It just removes the feeling of a well-rounded game if suddenly there are some twins. Like, now for the next two years you can also play Order of the Dragon which is just HRE but with a twist to check out new ideas we had, but are not in competitive canon. Can add also a seperate ladder where all civs including variant civs are allowed, and have a competitive ladder just with the civs that got the same attention to detail. Just to make clear, that devs just want to mix things up instead of diluting the civs' quality.@@AgeofNoob
I do like the new DLC,
I would buy it before release,
I love the fact there are two new factions
However
I think there could be better names for the new variant civs!
Thanks for bringing this concern @AgeofNoob
Personally I was hoping for a Kingdom of Jerusalem variant for the French or teutonic order for The HRE. I mean come on the campaign for sultans ascend is literally about your main opponent being the crusaders and that would be a killer way to intergrate in a new civ that you would probably like to play after playing against them in the campaign. It would be a shame if the crusader models we've seen in the images are just for campaign and not used for anything else. All in all I'm still excited for the dlc hell I preordered it and there's always the next dlc if this one does good.
I mean they have models for many civ, the Danes,Poles, Hungarians and a few others I forgot
I hate the idea of civ variants, I'd rather have new civs like the Spanish, but honestly IDGAF, it's my OCD, that makes me hate it. Why have 2 civs of the same but only 1 of the others. I wanted different from everything. It's just how I'm built. But in reality I honestly don't give a flip and I'm very happy to be getting new civs. And unlike others, I literally have all the achievements in the game, so I did play every civilization and didn't btch about being bored, unlike others, who cry, but still play only 1 2 or 3 civs tops.
I'd rather have Orléanais or Duchy of Orléans rather than House of Orléans, as the later makes me think too much about 19th century history (more specifically the brief period of time during which the House of Orléans was ruling over France) while the first two would be more related to the French feudal system. That being said, all sound better than a Jeanne d'Arc civ.
The Order of the Dragon doesn't sound so bad to me, but even though it was founded in the HRE, its history is more tied to Hungary and Romania afaik, so I don't know... I would have expected the Teutonic Order and hoped for the Hanseatic League, but I'm relatively okay with it.
The Sultan's Army is quite generic and sounds like a placeholder or an ai player name in a campaign. There are countless candidates to replace it, ideally a dynastic name I guess.
Empire of Jade I can't say anything until I know more, apparently...
Another great video, I appreciate your perspective on this. Very well put together.
I 100% agree that it is a shame that we have so much to be excited about, yet this topic has seemingly overshadowed everything. It sounds like there is so much to be hopeful about yet... this is all everyone cares about.
Well, I'm a casual player of Age of Empires IV and I was pretty hyped about the new expansion.
But at first I thought that since the theme was the crusades, it would make more sense to feature other civilizations from the Middle East or Europe instead of the Japanese and I was disappointed with their choice. After all, they could leave the Japanese to go with an Korea expansion. But then I realized that it made more sense to have a greater variety of civs that are not limited to the expansion theme, as this allows them to launch other civilizations in the future without them being tied to that.
As for the name of the variants, I haven't had much contact with Ages other than Mythology, but from what little I remember of them, I imagine that historically the playable civilizations have names related to countries, noble houses and derivatives. That's why I was uncomfortable with the choice of names, but I thought that was my thing and since I couldn't do anything about it I thought it was better not to worry. If it weren't for this video, I would never have known that this is something the wider community has noticed as well. So, thank you for shining a light on this topic and I would like to highlight how good the editing, scripting and sections are. Keep up with the great work!
PS: Sory for brook inglesh, no fist langage... :P
Just a note - it's well known in statistics that polls with voluntary responses will lean more negative than the true population. People are more likely to put effort into expressing disagreement with the status quo than support - it was great for you to run a separate poll to gage this factor but it still can't be dismissed.
For Jade Empire, perhaps Fanzhen (藩鎮) or Jiedushi (節度使) literal translate as local or regional warlords or defacto warlords might be a good choice. Since in every weaken empires in Ancient China, one of the most prominent challenge is the struggle between central power and regional power. Some even puppeted or even replaces the emperor to start a new dynasty.
Before the names are revealed, I theorized the variant civs' names would be:
French -> Duchy of Burgundy
HRE -> Teutonic Order
Chinese -> Jin Dynasty
Abbasid -> Mamluk Sultanate
I even speculate future variant civs like:
English -> Normans or Welsh
Delhi -> Ghorids or Rajput States
Malians -> Songhai
Ottomans -> Seljuks
Rus' -> Ruthenians or Cuman-Kipchak Confederacy
Mongols -> Golden Horde
Japanese -> Daimyo Clans or something
Byzantines -> anyone from the Balkans like the Serbs and the Croats
Fortunately, the devs are taking feedback from the variant civs' names.
Hey, as someone who looked a bit in the ME history i´m a bit confused. Does it make sense that the variant civ of the abbasids will represent the ayyubids or the mamluks? If yes, can someone explain me the historical context of it? i would greatly appreciate it if you could
I am still waiting for better tech icons for AoEIV.
Did you gave up on that one?
The problem is that there's no mechanism to implement it game wide. Even if we design all the icons, what's the point if we cannot see them in game during matchmaking? Until the devs allow that sort of modding, I'm afraid it'll be a stalled project.
@@AgeofNoob So they still do not want the players to make the game look like they prefer? It is a shame cause their stance is preventing me from supporting AoE4
The names are definitely not good
Edit: actually order of the dragon is the only one I like since it's a specific military order not any different from calling a civ "the hospitalers" which I would also like
Uh uh, I love that idea with houses! It shows connections with a main civ but at the same time, we know that it is a faction without breaking cohesion.
I hope that even if the civilization variants are similar to the originals, they will be able to become more unique through later updates adding, for example, new units.
Dude, new maps. I'm so excited for new maps.
I agree. Not so keen on the names. Seems all lover the place. And not in the general line of the game. Order of the Dragon seem to be the smallest offender to me, even if some will think it has something to do with fantasy. (Hay? Have people not heard of how Dracula got his name? I guess that do not help a lot since some people think Vlad III is fictional >_>)
So Sultans Army is way too generic and Jeanne d'Arc is way too specific. (I mean, is Jeanne the only one in the civilization? She is one of the most interesting historical figures, but not the only one of note with France at the time.)
It is not something I am that fussy about, however. But I do prefer your naming convention.
you truly are a huge contributer to this community and this game in general. a calm voice is very much appreciated, since this in my opinion already an enjoyable game and the DLC will add a lot more to that. don't let something minor like civ names destroy all the hype. Thank you
But it seems like the names for civ variants are not announced in any official news...
Look Sultan probably has had an Army and Jeanne d'Arc is a person that lead troops, Order of the Dragon was a thing
but I can't find no Jade Empires in the National Archives. 5000 years of history 83 Dynasties 559 Emperors and we haven't got any thing on "Empire of Jade"
My key takeaway from this is that I now want animated chickens
I suggest:
- Marked of Kane
- Steel Talons
- Traveller 55
/s
I loved the new name suggestions, the only one I would keep would be Order of the Dragon. The developers need to look at their suggestions, the bad names are the only worrying issue with this DLC.
It seems the issue with the names is more about naming conventions & a change in direction to add variants. They started with civilisations, but then basically add factions along side civilisations producing this awkwardness in naming convention. Having Abbasid & Ayyubid dysnasty seems to fit more nicely as variants of an Islamic Arab civilisation. However, Holy Roman Empire & Order of the Dragon or House of Luxembourg aren't as nice a fit because Holy Roman Empire IS the civilisation. If the names are really off-putting, it seems HRE needs a name change to something like House of Habsburg.
Dude i’m from Luxembourg and I couldnt believe my eyes when I saw the flag of my small country. That would be so huge 😭😍
I don’t mind Order of the Dragon, but the flag feels very modern. I still would rather have it be an actual civilization name, not a small faction within the group.
Orléans would be an ok name, but I thought it would be the Franks… ya know… since they’re mentioned by name in the trailer.
I have no idea what could be done for the Chinese.
And I was hoping for Mamelukes as an Abassid variant
Why Franks? Franks are germanic and not Celtic. The core area is in the Rhine-Main area.
I wonder if they will change the civ select menu just in case it gets too bloated
Still sceptical about the Variant Civs, playing diffrently then the original.
If that one HRE Screenshoot shows the Variant, then they will share at least 2 Landmarks and both unique units, the prelate and the landsknecht. The prelate, could be just the same skin and still be a regular monk, lacking everything that makes the prelate unique and just looks like a prelate. But what about the Landsknecht? If it works diffrent but looks the same as the landsknecht, that would be realy bad desinge. Everyone knows what a Landsknecht dose and how to deal with it, but not for this one, maybe it has much better stats then the original version, more HP, Damage, Armor and has the heavy tag to it, but has not splash damage. It just creates confusion.
And judging by that, we can assume, the other variant civs, will probably built in a similar way.
I realy hope, we get more details soon, becaus this bothers me much more then the names.
Sadly they ignored the feedback about the lack of consistency with the names.
If we have anniversary edition can we play with new civs?
No, you will have to purchase the DLC separately I'm afraid.
Besides the new civs names being chosen relatively poorly by themselves, the names of the new civs just don't fit in the current roster. That's probably the biggest issue...
Think Same civ, different time frame. Works somewhat fine With Romans in age 2 ;)
@@Mut4ntG4m3rThat's not the issue at all though. It's that the naming convention is completely inconsistent. One is literally just an individual person's name.
Glad to hear that sultan's army has become 'The Ayubid Dinasty'. I hope they will change also the other 3 new pseudo factions. What necessity there was of this semi new ones when there are a lot of new potencial HISTORICAL and serious factions to create? I don't undertsand relic/microsoft
Regarding issue 1 with the copy-paste claim: I strongly assume that the variant civs will be like culture groups in AoE 3, i.e. they share similarities but ultimately play out different.
In AoE 3, you e.g. have the American civs (Lakota, Haudenosaunee, Aztecs, Incas) that all have the War Chief and Community Plaza in common (+ Lakota and Haudenosaunee can't directly mine gold) but ultimately they all play out different. Same with the US civ and Mexico that both get home city cards for Age Ups but are fundamentally different in the way they play out.
The main issue I have is that both Jeanne d'Arc and Order of the Dragon are things which belong in the 15th century, which seems weird to name an entire civilisation over. Does it mean that these variant civs will only exist in the 15th century aesthetic or do they just stretch them backwards? Either way it feels odd
My guess is that those variants are factions that are going to appear in the new campaigns. That's why they all only belong to one time period and are so weirdly specific (or unspecific).
out of the 3 i honestly think order of the dragons is fine, they could keep that name