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Why Do Smash Pros Win in Other Fighting Games?
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 14 ส.ค. 2024
- #fightinggames #smashbros #guiltygear
Asking one of fighting games longest questions - why do smash players win in traditional fighters, but not the other way around? IMO, it isn't about the difficulty of the games.
0:00 - intro
1:55 - first reason
3:51 - second reason
6:00 - third reason
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As someone who was in the Evo crowd when Leffen won, the crowd being unhappy had little to do with Leffen being a Smash player. It was because he played HC.
Also the fact that's it's leffen. If like mango pulled up and won evo people would probably think it was hype.
I would argue its less Leffen is a smash player or plays hc but the fact he is a super toxic person and has a reputation thats fucked. I for one wouldn't congratulate someone like them because of that.
People were unhappy mostly because leffen is just very unlikeable person
there is far more reason why people were unhappy about leffen winning. Alot of people dont like him because of either past actions,rumors, personality etc.
Mang0 winning a non-Smash game would genuinely blow up esports in the coolest way possible
if you like the vid, why not subscribe too (or else)
Btw I'm very prepared for people to talk about mechanics differences, but imo good players are just good players and they will just do what they gotta do, you feel me. I just feel like external factors are a huge part of this discussion that I don't usually see is all!
leave it to LK to elevate the discourse game… sublime 🍷
Setchi got 7th at that same EVO and was a huge melee lab monster as well. Made huge advancements in Falcon's meta
I know, I practiced with him before Evo. For the vid I decided to use some of the most well known examples, if you play GG you def know about Setchi but outside of that (on the traditional fg side) prob not
based setchi
@@LordKnightfgcI'm from the same region as Setchi, he was one of the best Melee players in Europe, certainly the best Falcon player in Europe, and I think at one point he was ranked in MIOM / PG Melee top 100. He also pushed the Falcon meta forward, I think supposedly even coached Wizzrobe. Went on to play DBFZ briefly before settling on GG where he's a beast.
As a person who came from smash and went to other FGs, I think it's also because since most people who come from smash started playing it casually, all the weird nontraditional aspects like movement and platforms are just learned like a normal game. And if you suck, it's still fun. So it's very easy to layer other fundamental concepts like footsies and matchups on top of your existing knowledge. Most smash pros already know FG fundamentals, it's just hard to see if you don't follow smash. So it's not easier to learn for them, its just no different than a vet coming from, say, Tekken to SF6. But if you go the other direction, you're learning concepts that don't exist at ALL in other games. And every game has unique systems, but smash started a unique genre. If I was really good at, for example, a combat spaceship game, I could transition into a game where I shoot OR drive. But if I just played one where I drove or just shoot, then going to the spaceship game is a pain in the ass
This 100%
Based
Good analogy
100% based take
This also means, that if you go from smash to another fighting game and initially get stomped, you at least sort of get, why you lose and what to improve at, where as the other way around you might not really know how to avoid and deal with getting juggled for example and struggle or just quit entirely.
Sonicfox tried to play Ultimate early on but he never had time to fully commit.
Justin Wong tried to make a run at Melee but it was before the smash scene blew up and it wasn't worth it financially. (I'm pretty sure he's said it's his favourite game to watch)
SF was dodging the zero money match till bro got cancelled
I remember watching Justin playing elite smash in ultimate and he was explaining why smash is a hard game to learn
Another thing that goes with age is stigma. Ssb games tend to be pretty heavily derided as "kid's games". I imagine that an fgc player switching to ssb would face a lot of hate from their old community for moving to something easier or other such drivel.
Ehh, Melee skews really old. Ultimate you will see way more high school aged/ college aged pro players. In Melee it is rare to see someone good in their early 20s. That and the fact that Melee is more than 20 years old at this point.
Tbh neither are harder or easier, they just require different skill sets.
Smash certainly used to have stigma, but I think the stigma of smash games is mostly gone now, and has been gone for a while.
Yeah, there was a ton of stigma back around 2007-2012. Smash players had not impressed FGC players at EVO 2007 or especially EVO 2008 (when Brawl was at EVO). People called it not a real fighting game. The general perception was that smash players never played other games, and that the gameplay lacked the depth of fighting games (a criticism that was floating around on the internet back then was "smash doesn't have crossups" which sounds...incredibly silly to say in 2023).
But like...Smash did impress at EVO 2013, the general fighting game crowd loved it. That, and subsequent tournaments did a good job of displaying the depth of the gameplay. And obviously smash players now do play other fighting games.
@@KaitlynBurnellMath Good job Leffen for silencing the fgc.
@@KaitlynBurnellMath wdym used to? people will still bring that shit up on why they don't like melee or smash in general. u forgot the "it's a party game" bs argument from traditional fgc'ers, like just cuz it was intended to be a party game all of a sudden wavedashing and all the other tech that makes melee melee is gone now all of a sudden. there are still people like that, probably not having even to do with smash at all, but in just gaming or fgc business: elitists. they'll use any and all arguments to discredit something or prop themselves up even though one look at their arguments like the "party game" thing you know it's bs.
Melee vs ultimate for matchups is interesting, because you have to have a deeper understanding for a small group of characters vs a comparatively shallow matchup for a lot of characters
As someone in the evo crowd when Leffen won. I didn’t boo him bc he’s a smash player. I boo’d him bc he’s Leffen.
My one-liner Internet-tier take (specifically Melee): Smash Melee is fucking hard. If you can play Melee, you will not find a fighting game that is harder to learn - you've already developed the skills to learn anything else.
If you are going from GG or SF into Melee specifically, you are in for some shit - some crazy, crazy shit. The movement in that game is so hard - so absurd and the barrier to entry as a result is a K2-sized mountain.
I think you're right though. If you put in the hours to master wave dashing you've already shown you're willing to commit a lot of time and energy into a game. It's the same reason Broodwar professionals moved to other games so well.
idk I grew up playing old ass fighters on SNES but didn't learn a fighting game until Melee. I don't think Melee is necessarily that much harder than say SF4, another game notorious for its tough execution. They're hard games to learn in different ways. I mean who remembers Leffen being unable to do some basic shit in SF4 and then threw his hands up in the air and said "no melee is sooooo much harder than street fighter it's not even crazy" when it's just obvious he hadn't put in nearly as much time in SF so of course he's gonna be frustrated. Whether it's 1 frame links or precise analog placement I think once you get good at some form of execution those skills transfer easily to other games. Like Lord Knight said Melee is an old-ass established game so of course FGCers going into Melee are gonna end up struggling, but at the same time smashers and 2D fighers alike (speaking from personal experience) are gonna struggle getting into 3D games like Tekken or Virtua Fighter.
I remember back in the days of SF4 Excellenr Adventures with Mike Ross and Gootecks, they brought on Bobby Scar who had been learning the game because he worked with Mike, and all Mike Ross would talk about is how completely fucking insane how Scar's execution was and how he picked up all these difficult links and combos in like a minute. It ended with him saying to Kenny Omega (who brought Scar up because he was curious if Mike Ross could perform a Makoto tech pioneered by Scar, which he couldn't because it was just too hard) that melee is the hardest fighting game in the world.
@@deaddreamdance is there any video footage of what you're talking about, sounds like an interesting watch.
Exactly, it literally takes years to develop the muscle memory and tech skill just to be able to move your character optimally, im a marvel player and ive been trying forever just to learn basic melee movement tech, my melee friend, who doesn't play traditional fgs, was preforming mst tod combos after like 2 days, said "its kinda slow and easy" melee players are a different breed.
I think a lot of fighting game fundamentals carry over from smash into other games, but a lot of smash specific stuff is not at all present in other games. Spacing, footsies, combos are all there, just less obvious. The problem comes when you come from a "trad" FG to Smash, and suddenly you have a ton of new variables coming at you at break neck speed. Suddenly there's a ton of verticality, new defensive options like DI, weird movement tricks, recovering and edgeguarding. All of those are concepts that are not very present or not present at all in trad FGs. I think the switch to platforms intimidates or frustrates a lot of players because it is very daunting to go into a game you should be decent at because in the end it's just another fighting game, only to get waveshined by a 20 year old zoomer on adderall
LK at it again with the godlike engagement bait
there is simply nobody else doing it like him. he has his finger on the pulse of the fgc. truly a content savant.
click bait (real)
the sonicfox vs zero thing was sonic saying "im gonna be the best at ultimate cause im the best at every game i challenge zero to a match 3 months after the game comes out" and then dropped the game before then because it never clicked and the match never happened
i think one of the most important reasons why smash players can pick up fighting games better than the fgc can pick up smash is because the skills that smash players don't have that fighting games demand are much more understood. like there are countless resources and people who will teach you how to act when you're being pressured on block or wakeup, but fighting game players are gonna have a hard and discouraging time learning how to get off the ledge
Reason 4: melee execution is next level and it’s okay to admit this 👍🏾 the execution ceiling is basically infinite.
The only thing close in traditional/modern fighting games is like playing a mishima in tekken.
I’m not saying melee execution will carry you in other games (it will not) but I always find it kind of funny the things that people consider “hard” in fighting games (that aren’t tekken).
I remember in DBFZ when base vegeta came out the immediate consensus was that doing ki blast corner loops was unstable and not good for tournament. I immediately thought “there’s no way that’s true”. It’s not easy but it’s nowhere near approaching something that can’t be stabilized. Meanwhile melee players are doing setups that are on the brink of human reaction time and doing multiple frame perfect setups that literally kill you when you mess them up (imagine if when you went for PEWGF in tekken you literally just die and the round ends if you input it too soon).
People caught up eventually and implemented those loops but it’s funny how there’s modern FG hard and melee/tekken/sf4 hard.
If you can do half the shit in melee that the modern meta requires you can basically handle whatever execution most fighting games will throw at you…you still have to grind it but it is cold hard facts. It’s the hardest game I ever played by an order of magnitude
facts
The execution in smash games gets hard mostly because of the controls. Lots of very important but basic stuff requires very fast and precise analog stick inputs in terms of angle, speed AND distance, which is something that never EVER comes up in traditional fighters because they never have true analog movement. An easy example is the difference between the inputs that give you turnaround A, turnaround ftilt, turnaround smash attack, and turnaround dash attack are very subtle and depend entirely on how quickly and how far you push the analog stick. As someone who's played Smash since 64 (and learned traditional fighters much later) analog stick misinputs are really the only thing that I still consistently mess up. Smash is the only competitive game with these kinds of inputs and I still can't do them consistently after a million hours so I'm not at all surprised that there's not many FGC players that make it in the Smash scene. Even in Ultimate where you can customize your controls (thank god) stuff like instant shorthop RAR is a real struggle to do consistently but so much competitive strategy is gated behind being able to do it reliably.
@@gamekyuubi42069 I don't think haxdash stalling(which is probably what hes referring you with "kill(s) you when you mess up") perfectly is a lot easier on a Boxx than a gcc tbh
@@aschneider8912 th-cam.com/video/91YEH_4czCo/w-d-xo.html
I mean I would argue it is. If you drop the analog stick (and analog R/L for that matter) from the equation the execution is not so different from some fighting game tech like kara cancelling or TKing a move. And in many instances messing that up will get you punished hard.
Virtua Fighter was the original insane execution fighter, which is why that series is exactly where it is now. Surprisingly, Tekken was created by the same exact man, but intended to be "An easier Virtua Fighter"
Having talked to a lot of people who started playing traditionals first, the common thing i hear talked about when they try smash is the ariel drift. Alot of traditional FG players have a really hard time grasping the fact that you still have control of your character after you leave the ground.
As someone who only plays melee, reading this and realizing that in traditional FGs you don't have aerial drift is blowing my mind in the opposite direction lmao
@@chickenswallow I recently moved to strive from melee and what really grinds my gears is the fact that once you get hit you just have to wait for your opponent to finish his combo. God I miss DI, the very fact that you can influence your direction adds unfathomable amount of defensive game plan that I really miss in strive.
@@brawnstein Consider bursting, if you don’t have that option, just crouch block and wait for an opening to interrupt
@@brawnstein Traditionals have a much bigger emphasis on playing a very tight neutral for that reason. I found that when I played traditionals for a little bit and then went back to smash, it helped my overall neutral and positioning immensely
leffen has been playing FGs long enough that he's more then just a smash player
not rly bruh's only been playing fighting games since 2017
@@myuutosan”only” 6 years
@@myuutosan that was 6 years ago and he’s always played them on the side
@@myuutosan Leffen competed in Ultimate Marvel 3. He started playing fighting games much sooner than 2017.
@@treesnip5667 yeah lol it only takes a quick search to see vods of him playing KOFXIII almost ten years ago lolll
I feel like the biggest reason I don't see the transition to Smash as often as the other way around is because of the elitism that has surrounded the FGC. I was so fed up people saying that Smash isn't a real fighting game that I switched my main to Ken, and my friends said that I was the hypest player ever. I then started playing 3rd Strike on my school computer, then Strive, and now I'm learning the other GGs, Idol Showdown, and SF6. I'm still grinding on Smash however; my interest comes and goes, but fundies are forever. It was my gateway into the FGC, and I wouldn't have it any other way.
Nothing to do with elitism more with the fact that smash doesn't offer to people what they look in the fighting game. Well smash isn't real fighting in sense that it is platform fighting game and it has its own genre. I doubt anyone is saying that apple is fruit and orange is not unless they are trolling your ass.
I don't care if the guy winning is a random 13 year old from rwanda known for knitting. If he wins, he wins.
the fgc needs more 13 year olds from rwanda who are known for knitting
@@eebbaa5560Instead we have 30-something year old LTG who is known for quitting
I started in melee, played future smash games, and just picked up Street Fighter 6.
Im not amazing, currently plat 2, but I genuinely think smash helped me a lot.
The biggest hurdle is definitely getting used to the controls and the new muscle memory, but there's a lot more to fighting games.
Things like mentality, reaction time, picking up on habits, and figuring out what the opponent wants are all skills Smash helped me get much better at
Literally same. FG fundies are universal.
I main Ike who is THE fundies character of Smash. I'm Gold 5 with Ryu rn and it's just small things I gotta learn in SF.
It's funny I had the same path but Street Fighter 6 helped me breakdown lazy parts of my smash playing. It definitely helped develop better fundamentals. Both are so unique yet so similar at the same time which I know doesn't make sense but it's a fun balance!
I wonder how much of this is also a numbers game. Smash is a super popular game, their competitive scenes are bigger, so there's a bigger chance that their players will transition into something else just because there are more players.
In my case, I've lived in two college towns before moving to a major city. And the FG scene in both college towns was just smash players lending FGs a small corner in their locals. So, I just think it's not that hard to find smash players who transitioned into speedrunning (Armada), FGs, big TH-cam (Ludwig), everything (VoiD) or whatever else, just because smash is so damn popular.
I think that the reasons you mentioned are definitely a part of it, plus the social stigma of smash being for kids, but I can't ignore the sheer popularity of smash being a factor here. Just like in a few years we will find lots of great FG players who started by playing Fortnite or sth like that.
started in Melee, started placing years later in Tekken. Just learned spacing and frame data from Melee, and conditioned myself to watch the opponent, etc
Why do some mario 1 speedrunners speedrun mario 3
we werent booing him because he plays smash. we booed him because he's leffen (and plays HC)
Lets be honest it was mostly because hc
If he played smth like anji or goldlewis it would just be straight silence
@@Parpeing nah it would not, leffen is just a tool all around. He gets hate for a reason
Always found it funny how most melee players will practice wavedashing for 10 hours a day but get intimidated by
motion inputs and FG combos
We practice movement because it's really fun to do. Also, every single melee local, in many different regions, I've ever been to since I started playing in 2016 has had at least 2 setups for more traditional fighters. They're always packed with people playing whatever the hot game is at the time. I can't speak for the ult side of things, but melee players love fighting games
Honestly, the motion input stuff doesn't come naturally to smash players cuz it's almost the reverse of what you do in Smash. Motion input is precise-ish movement of the stick with some button press when something like wavedash is a single held direction with precise-ish multiple button timing.
@@Lowtendo I see a lot of love for trad fighting games in my community at least, a couple of players have mostly switched and a ton enjoy them to some degree
@@louiscorona8465have you ever heard of a moonwalk in melee? it's literally a motion input with the added execution of the first input being a walk into a dash back half circle forward. also almost all of my smash friends including ultimate players have never really struggled playing fighting games at a competent level so idk where this idea comes from.
moonwalks, ledgedashes, reverse aerial rushes and smash techs are all functionally motion inputs but with the analog aspect adding an extra layer of difficulty. when you switch to an FG the more relative simplicity of digital inputs is alot less abstract to learn. Learning to have good footsies in FGs without as many ways to simply outspeed your opponent with technical execution alone is more what I've noticed smash players struggling with in other games
p sure youre conflating SSBM players with SSBU kids
Rage Red is a slept on title. Good graphics and great gameplay. X3
legacy skill is a thing that exists and it does more than translate between fighting games
Legacy skill usually refers to skill transferred within the same series, not to mention genres
Top smash players have the fundamentals for improvement while having the worlds shittiest training mode of all time. Traditional fighting games have better learning tools ingame.
If the question is why there aren't more traditional fgc fighters go to go plsy Smash, i think game aesthetics matter a lot. I play Splatoon 3 and that game is shitloads of fun and has a really good competitive scene and is wholesome. There is no blood, its like paintball, just some squidkids running around. A lot of people don't try it bevause it looks like a kids game they're adults now with adult needs for violence and kick-ass miltary explosions and shit. So, the same thing is true for fgc heads, they don't want to plsy Smash because, irrespective of how deep the meta is, it looks like a kid's game and there aren't any women with their boobies and buttcheeks hanging out and the same kind of kick-ass violence.
I agree with all of your points as well, i think the aesthetics is also a major contributor
i love splatoon but i wish it weren’t on the switch because i feel like it can’t break past its perception as a casual game.
i really like the aesthetics of splatoon and it’s probably one of my favorite nintendo IPs, but i haven’t bought the game because i don’t feel like it’s worth the investment if i want to take it seriously and grind it for hours.
i also feel like nintendo isn’t equipped to handle live-service games and because of that splatoon doesn’t seem to have longevity. idk how many people still play the most recent game today after years of being out, but i can’t imagine the player counts are still high when the competition is so heavy.
so to address your point, i think aesthetics matter, but so does the platform. lots of people like nintendo characters and i don’t think they have a problem with smash as a franchise. they just don’t think it’s as competitive as other fighters due to easier controls and its marketing as a casual party game.
The honest truth is the smash (melee specifically) genuinely is one of the most complex fighting games ever, if not THE most complex. You literally have to put in years of practice just to learn how to move your character around on a competitive level, much less spacing, machups, understanding neutral and distance, which are also things that take years to learn. Bottom line, smashers are cracked, and im a hardcore marvel guy
Ult players are better. They're the ones going pro in Sf6
Every single fighting game have that
The main difference is that you will never see a top ranked FG player drop his main game.
Just like you wont see smash players picking legacy FG series , you also wont see legacy FG players picking other FG
The player Sandstorm in brawlhalla was a smash player before destroying everyone in 2018-2021 i believe
and before that he was one of the best Geometry Dash players around 2015 and 2016. The dude is just great at everything, even non-fighting games.
I heard you talk about incentives but I'm also interested in whether some skills transfer better than others. I've heard that smash is one of the most difficult fighting games to excel at because of complicated tech.
not smash, melee*
Also worth noting: anybody who has got good at something like melee has demonstrated that they are willing to put in the time and have the focus to really learn a technical input-based competitive 1v1 game. Anybody in that category is going to do pretty well in any other game of that kind if they are interested!
Smash is pretty big but it's in its own niche fighting game genre, mechanically different enough from other fighters that it's difficult to get into (plus other barriers like controllers) but not too different for the skills to transfer.
I'm originally a casual pm/melee player, constantly between 0-2 and 2-2 at locals, picked up GGS, and hit celestial in a few months - i know thats not insane, but i definitely am better at ggs than melee with like 10% of the time investment
Definitely agree that melee is harder, and I'd add that it's definitely more dimensional - i feel like the decision making is way way faster on top of the execution barriers, it takes soooo long to find the right moves in neutral and in advantage (and disadvantage, when in ggs all you gotta do is cry for the most part)
Dope video! but i do think that melee players specifically tend to be really good with spacing when transitioning to other FGC games and i think their tech skill in melee translates well as execution in other fighting games
I'd argue that it's less about Smash player winning Strive tournament and more because he's known as a prick (character choice didn't help either)
As a Smash player who have played GG Strive, MortalKombat, Injustice and a little bit of SF. All Imma say is Smash is a way deeper hole. Is that good or bad for a FG? Idk. But man, the amount of mix-up your opponent can do and you can answer with + the amount of characters + how even universal options changes frames for every character. It's just a lot to unpack. It takes a lot of time to learn from scratch. I couldn't even imagine how stressful that would be.
Everyone can learn movement and combos. But the game starts with reads, pressure, advantages, etc. I feel like in regular fighting games your options are linear but in Smash or platform games man, look at Steve, there's so many ways, so much space and so many mix-up + easy ways to simply die for a mistake. It's not a game for everyone, it's complex.
Regular fighting games are complex too, but I feel like it's another tear for Smash. So when Smash players switch they don't have it as complex as the other way around + you keep the fundies
smash is also the most popular game casually, so its most likely for it to be peoples first fighting game, and then they later get interested in other fighting games (kinda connected with the age thing)
I feel like smash bros really teaches players how to deal with BS and other inconsistencies. Sf6 is much more consistent and it’s very easy to win if there’s a small skill gap between players.
Smash will have a ton of different outcomes from someone hitting a move (precise spacing, which hitbox of the move, percentage, rage, staling).
It’s so much more stressful to play smash in comparison to sf6, sf3, mvci, mk1, etc.
The only comparable game in terms of pacing and bs imo is mvc3
I’m not saying smash isn’t competitive, I’m saying it’s super hard to be consistent and requires adaptation at every stage of the game. Trad fighting games completely lock the opponent mid combo and the person performing the combo just needs to execute correctly (even if there are combo breaks like in mk, they don’t threaten a whole devastating reversal like snake in ultimate)
I think one reason behind Leffen's lukewarm crowd response at evo was that Leffen as a personality is quite divisive. Imo he tends on the side of toxic too much. But of course the smash player stigma and other factors definitely contributed
The way you explain your points clicks so well with me. Keep on killing it dude!
1:21 kinda surprised you didn't cover the time when korean dj picked up melty blood act cadenza as well
I played with him, he wasn't that serious about it.
Old story but we once did a "all fgs money matches" where we money matched in every game at the CEO venue over the course of like 4 hours. Super fun, great guy.
that pan over the crowd when leffen won evo will never not be funny to me lol. i think a lot of people just collectively realized in that moment that strive was cooked
another certified LK banger in the books
The games are different but the improvement process is the same
I will say tho in regards to Leffen, Void and Riddles (idk much about Dekillsage) that they are all uniquely good at labbing and refining difficult characters.
I didn't know you started with Melee 🤯
I played fighting games casually, but Smash 4 and Ultimate were the first games I competed in. Now I've transitioned to playing a variety of FGs like SF6, VF, etc
I didn't even consider how hard it would be to start with traditional FGs first and then try competitive Smash.
This is a very interesting topic. I think motivation and prestige are the biggest things that get people to switch, however I wonder if that would be the case if Smash was still present at events like EVO.
yea i think that is a factor too. if you're gonna switch or just start with melee to begin with it's cuz you do it cuz you like the game. i forgot why smash isn't in evo now, is it cuz of nintendo or the outing of the sexual deviants?
@@xaevius5319 I'm really not sure, but it could be both, I understand if Melee isn't at EVO because they want attention to their newer games, but ultimate doesn't get any attention either by nintendo. I love smash and I want to be a competitive player, but I find more motivation in putting hours into sf6 than smash rn
@@Alkaman yea i could see that. one's melee and the other has fucking steve and kazuya, combined with no support from the devs and even actively fucking them over, it's just a shit situation
@@xaevius5319 sony bought evo
MenaRD also started in smash 4!
Whoa I did not know that...
I have never heard... of Smash Pros winning other fighting games. The only time was when Leffen won at STRIVE and that game is less complex than Street Fighter 2. Not Super Street Fighter 2, but vanilla Street Fighter 2. I've seen "pro matches" where people have spammed the shit out of 1 move constantly. Legit, I saw a match where these "Potemkin players" spammed Mega Fist forward 5 times in a row. THAT is the standard for STRIVE. I'm suppose to believe that Leffen is better than players such as FAB, Omito, Daru, or even Kizzie? That is a joke. STRIVE reminds me of Leffen a lot.
Maybe it’s just me but my region has smash locals almost every day of the week but not as many traditional fgc tournaments. I feel like being in that mode so much helps smash players move onto other fighters.
Fighting game skills dont transfer super well to smash. They do transfer a little but not a lot. Smash skills transfer very well with fighting games for the most part.
I honestly believe it's because of how long one has been out versus the other it's easier to hop into a new game wirh new mechanics but same foundation. But I play many fighters so I'm just okay at each game versus excelling at one
Really interesting video, by the way there's a more recent example that comes to mind than Sonicfox although I'm unsure if it counts but MenaRD actually main Bowser in Ultimate, he enters tournaments for fun when he feels like it but at the beginning of Ult he even took a game (or a set, unsure) off of Samsora in his prime when he was ranked Number 2~3, but then to my understanding Mena actually started from Smash switching over to SF
Awesome video LK, but why is your moustache uneven. Only 1 side is connected 😂
So...just leffen? 'Cus the average smash player ain't going anywhere near an arcade fighter. Not unless nintendo characters are on the box.
Is there a smash player that has done well in KOF or Tekken?
The idea to start a TH-cam channel has been forming in the back of my mind for a close to a decade now, if I ever did it this video would be the first thing i upload
I will say though, i disagree with some of this video. A lot of the smash players that are successful elsewhere were doing so before there were tours and career prospects attached. People like DR Ray from the Dominican Republic show this.
Also, the sonicfox vs zero thing never happened. Sonic went 0-2 at nyc locals for like a month and quit.
There are a few rare examples of fgc players doing decent in smash tho. A jp street fighter player was streaming smash for a while and had a pretty solid lucina but nevwr entered any tournaments.ill have to check my twitch subs to remember the name
And apologyman was ranked in the top 10 of his state for a little bit in smash 4. His lucario was really good even though he would likely never admit it himself😅
do it please!
how tf is your skin so smooth man???? you look GOOD!
One thing that drove me away from is the abysmal training mode.
Genuinely, the only concept that I actually like from that thing is the trajectory veiwer, and even that is flawed.
It could have options to show a cone instead to represent the whole area you could be in using DI, or have a notch at the point where a character could recover from the hit.
On the side of going from traditional fighters to platfrom fighters, one thing that I think might be jarring is the transition from digital to analogue. Smash has a lot of controls that are set to things like motion SPEEDs or partial angles-things that I see a lot less of in tradtional fighting games, which tend to use more consistent, digital controls.
This is completely off topic but your hair is so cool. Ur video was also really informative
What is interesting to me is the variety in different platform titles now. I haven’t played Brawhalla, and some of the other platforms fighters but I have played NASB and Rivals. Each game has its own skill curve and meta and you make a good point that it is hard to rise in the ranks if you only have time to devote to one game. And that developed meta is what gives the game have staying power. Games like melee and rivals will always have a dedicated fan base because the cast is small enough and the meta developed enough that you can actually learn quite a bit from the grassroots community.
I think a potentially big reason is just how mainstream smash is. People newer to games are more likely to play smash before they play street fighter so if smash is something that interests them competitively, they will probably just play that before even trying a traditional fighting game. By the time they are playing something like melty blood, they've probably already decided if smash was for them or not.
I also imagine the large install base for melee made finding in person tournaments easier when online practice just wasn't a thing. Being able to practice a fighting game online is still a relatively recent thing.
Very interesting take LK. Thanks for the video
It’s because they pick top 1 characters, I figured that was obvious. If everyone was on HC i promise you the outcome would be different
Lmao bruh
@@Parpeing do you genuinely think leffen could win without HC?
Always thought its bc smash is 80% yomi and situational awareness
wtf is yomi
@@eebbaa5560being multi step ahead
Yo! Just found your yt, Ggs from a while back. Your peach is fantastic
Bc Smash players are hype!
Nice to meet you last weekend LK - Subbed!
The two main reasons I put less emphasis on smash is A. the scene was all a bunch of teenagers and B. the online experience was garbage. it's been years at this point so not sure if both of those things are still true. Slippi is good but Melee is a super old and unbalanced game full of bugs and glitches. It feels very outdated after playing any newer fighting game. its still very fun and high level melee is nothing short of miraculous, but it's wild to me that people still take it seriously as a competitive game, they literally patched the game and made it better and the community chooses to use the more broken version LOL.
You mean pal vs NTSC right?
@@LordKnightfgc yeah, PAL is way more balanced - fixes a lot of character specific oversights, and buffs pretty much all the low tiers while at the same time toning down the top tiers who literally make half the cast unplayable in NTSC
Melee's online is pretty much the best FG online of any game, from a technical perspective.
Sadly online is absolutely garbage in any other smash game. Can't trust Nintendo to give you a good product in that aspect.
I've dipped my toes in both Smash and traditional fighting games and what I can add to this discussion is that dedicated Melee/PM players in particular come into traditional fighting games with a much higher level of execution than someone coming from another genre. This is also a community that's pretty well-known for sitting down for hours at a time learning specific tech for a game and that lends itself really well to something like Guilty Gear or Street Fighter. A lot of the same fundamentals carry over too, like keeping track of your opponent's habits, set play, learning matchups, etc. It's obviously not 1-1 but similar enough that I can see how someone like Leffen got so good at both. Also don't forget, he's been playing fighting games for almost as long as he's been in smash. After he was temporarily banned from Melee he picked up UMVC3 for a bit.
The only thing that messes with me personally as a mediocre smash player trying fighting games is memorizing entire combos and doing them reliably. In P+ (my primary game), the combo game is mostly about reading opponent's DI and reacting accordingly, and in traditional FGs things usually work on most characters as long as you time it right (some exceptions for bigger and smaller hitboxes, etc).
Apologyman is an example of a good fgc player as well as a strong smash player.
Oh shit i played a friendlies set with this guy at CEO earlier this year,
I didnt know he was a content creator!
Smash taught me spacial awareness and taught me bare bones fighting mechanics albeit not very in depth like say a blaze game it taught me a basic paper, rock, scissor understanding of fighting games in general (I know not all fighting games are as simple as that Analogy) when I got into mortal Kombat it took that fundamental understanding and did throw me for a loop but at a base level I knew I had to ease up in certain areas and pick up in others and I always feel out fighting games in that way. Now I find myself getting into games with deeper mechanics and I feel almost comfortable adding a new layer to my previous knowledge from other games it’s usually never 1:1 but it’s enough to at least give you an idea of what you should be doing in that game and what is demanded of the player as they get deeper into its higher level gameplay
That Catherine song is my ringtone... totally thought my phone was going off.
The main aspects of any other fighting game is learned in smash and it's to a much higher degree. The game sense of spacing, neutral, footsies, execution, punish are all apart of competitive smash. You have more room in smash to explore all of those options but once you figure out your limits with the game's mechanics It's easier to go from smash to other games.
Also your reaction speed being tested by a charge cancelling samus while you're at 150% will keep you level headed while playing other FGs when at 1 pixel hp left against a full screen zoner.
Going from other games to smash is a lot harder since there's so much more to do, and most players don't get past which items they want to turn off vs turning them off completely and start calling it a kids game.
Leffen is a TFT player
What about fgc players coming over to newer platform fighters like Nickelodeon All Stars Brawl or Multiversus? I wonder if they could keep up then.
It is still gonna be players like Void dominating if they decide to put the time into it as we saw last year.
I think smash is a really good way to learn and get a deeper understanding of a lot of high level fg concepts which can be hard to otherwise teach new players
Like most players in a fighting game can just rely on their usual high/low mix and a few bnb’s and never really evolve past that. Smash forces you to really get a handle on stuff like mixups, because there is no high/low you need to get creative with it, and combos because the nature of combos in smash is so free form due to DI and getting weird hitboxes that knockback completely differently
Such an interesting thought. Thanks
I remember Wawa from Dbfz went to smash after winning evo but idk if he still plays
unrelated comment, but just from the first 5 seconds of the vid. super cool hair!
Wawa when he was #1 in Fighterz quit the game to play Ult. Just to go 0-2 in pools.
As a smash player I can say this is true. I picked up guilty gear as the other game I wanted to play and compared to my growth in smash it was so much faster.
as an ultimate player who picked up sf6 when it came out as my first traditional fighter, I was able to hit master with modern cammy within a month and a half and just recently hit diamond with gief because i thought itd be fun. I think one especially big difference is because of defensive play in smash you have to be ready all the time and dont have time to think about neutral interactions that just happened, whereas in sf6 any time you lose neutral its pretty easy to tell what you got hit by and why which makes it easier to learn and also adapt.
For sonicfox playing s4: they went to xeno (a nyc s4 local) and went 2-2 iirc after dekillsage was gonna coach them a little and they never entered anything else to my knowledge and must've just dropped it
Funny enough too I constantly think about this all the time when I play fighting games wonder how good SonicFox would have been if they mained smash and I also wish I knew about Neutral back then I wish smash had a better tutorial like SF6 or other fighting games or information to teaching people how to play their game better
everyone is talking about this in nasb 2 rn too so perfect timing
I think my main thing with smash vs other fighters is it increases my technical skill and map positioning but weakens input chains and the nuance in movement for games like tekken
....Games can also get stale.
Happens in every "career". Burnout from lack of novelty are things that happen all the time in different professions, and while there is a desire (and incentive) to become the very best at one specialization... people will eventually hit their limit on what can be explored. It can happen to the viewers as well - which is why stories and events like Amsa winning with Yoshi are so celebrated and attention worthy.
I love 3rd Strike but I can't really take it seriously or fully get hyped for tournaments because oftentimes it's the same matchups again and again and the game is established to the point where you'll see some of the same patterns for the same characters despite the player that is manning the helm. I'm certain I never had the chops to compete at a world level, but even if I did I feel like I wouldn't be able to maintain it for so long (even if there was a lot of cash infusion to the game to make it a career.)
really good point that i think applies even to current-gen games. guilty gear strive currently feels like a game that suffers from a lack of novelty. even when a new character and balance patch drops, the dust settles and the game goes back to the same old rhythm after about a month or so.
as for the case of old games like third strike and melee, i can see how it would old to play what is effectively a “dead game” even if the playerbase is still there. updates and changes to the meta are what make games enjoyable and what keeps them from getting stale, but old games obviously don’t have that legacy. third strike is still an interesting game precisely because i haven’t played it, so the appeal of playing something new with a lot of depth is alluring to me, but i totally understand how people could get tired of it after literal decades.
Interesting point
I've heard that part of the reason Leffen got more into Strive was because he was basically tired of winning in Smash. Felt that the EU Smash scene didn't take competing seriously and didn't want to improve, which is obviously not a problem for the EU FGC.
But it feels like I have so much to learn and I wanna improve I put so much time I hope me coming from Smash and Playing Millia like smash looking for scrambles all the time didn’t develop a lot of bad habits at least street fighter is helping me
Not only ultimate is not a new game, but many ultimate player were smash4 player, who in turn where brawl player and so on. Smash games are similar enough for the skills to carries over unless you jump from 2 extreme like smash64 to ultimate.
There's a Japanese Smash Bros Ken player named Takera; wasn't he an SF player back in the day or am I tripping?
Why did you use the clip of Hbox passing out lmfao
I think another major reason for Why Smash Bros Players typically do well in other Fighting Games. would be the ability to Adapt.
In Smash Bros Melee there's 25-26 Characters and 6 Different Stages Where Match-ups can be drastically different, Meeting Character on a specific stage could give large benefits to one side. In Ultimate with 89 Characters and anywhere between 5-10 legal stages depending on Tournament. And the fact that Certain Characters only have combos that work on Enemies in Specific Weight groups, Or the fact that certain Blast Zones are Different Sizes so doing A Combo on Smashville might kill but doing it on Final Destination it might not.
It's almost pointless to learn the nitty gritty details of Shiek vs Shulk on Smashville, and would be Better to just be adaptable to any situation, Learn What your character can do, and then learn the basics of other characters.
Wawa, top french player of fighterz and iirc evo or world tour champ a few years back, made the jump from dbfz to smash.
that’s tough lol. bro went from trash game to trash game
Ah yeah, I haven't talked to him for a while so I forgot he picked up ultimate
@@LordKnightfgc It's cool that he changed to a game he enjoys more/has more passion towards, at least currently, but I'd be lying if I said his lack of presence for big fighterz events and tourney doesn't sadden me.
Great video but would done this video on mk pro players there lot of mk pros examples you can uses wining tournament in different fighting games.
*Except in Street Fighter* Laughs in Leffen Red Bull Kumite performance.
this like me making a video on sonic fox saying "Why Do MK Pros Win in Other Fighting Games?"
Ooo finished video at record speed on x2 speed ~
Imo the core reason Smash players can succeed but not the other way around is accessibility. Most popular fighting games right now are just incredibly accessible to learn and not insanely difficult mechanics. Both traditional fighters and Smash are **super** heavy into neutral so Smash will teach players how to think about the game actively. Advantage/Disadvantage/Neutral. Smash reaches all these. But in the reverse traditional fighters teach none of the mechanical skills required for Smash which is absolutely not a accessible game. Even "up and coming" Smash players take a few years to reach proper mechanical skills to compete.
Another factor is also probably that it's easier to remove then add. Smash has a lot of factors like DI/SDI/Knock backgrowth/ect to learn that you have to pick all of that up when you start and "add" that to your mind as changes in game state when adjusting your neutral. It's much easier for Smash to transition over to Traditional fighters because you just "remove" those things from your neutral and boil down and refine the concepts already there about footsies and corner pressure and whatnot. The knowledge is already there for smash players and it just needs to be honed to a higher level. The knowledge needed for smash just doesn't exist in other games.
I also think that the amount of characters in ultimate's roster is also quite intimidating as it means no matter how much knowledge you have about your own character, you're bound to get mu checked in someway vs a character. It's how low and mid tier characters can sometimes make insane runs that they should have realistically no right in making. Not that they didn't earn it but it means that even players who've put years into this game can't know every mu and will get upsetted by something they didn't see coming.
Funnily enough, even melee players are also not that great at ultimate. One of my favorite videos is skyjay vs melee pro players in ultimate and watching 4 pros get destroyed only taking one stock. It's just harlious watching them implement melee mechanics and habits to a game where you will get murdered if you were to even try it XD. Hbox and Leffen are like the only 2 melee players who have gotten decent to even great results in ultimate.
video wasn’t even 10 minutes your brain is fried
@@kacheechang4667don’t forget our lord and savior wizzrobe 😇 also yeah that skyjay vs melee showdown is hilarious !!
I used to play rivals of aether competively (top 16 EU). I got really intro trad fighters. I think they teach different. Plat fighters are way more about postitioning, movenent & I
Intercepting your opponent.
Trad fighters don't teach them see way. It's applicable then the other way around.
The man almost won DBFZ, Won Smash and now won Strive. How can you not respect that ?
What's the outro music?
I switched from Ultimate to traditional fighting games because of the Netcode. Not a lot going on close to me in the way of offline Smash, so online is the only way for me to get practice. If you know anything about Smash Ultimate, you know the netcode is some of the most bottom tier garbage you can find in any online game.