@ 7:02 No, that's not a fact. It's not true for me, for example. You also left out a ton of modes that exist in single player but it's dependent on the game. One common mode you left out though is Survival.. @ 8:14 No, it really didn't. If you were playing them actively, there were always new games and they all brought something a little different to the table, the truth is Fighting Games aren't for everyone. It takes real effort to level up because you do it via *experience* not *experience points.* The exploration doesn't lie in roaming around taking out countless jobber enemies so that you can eventually find something that will add 2% to your kick their ass now button. Instead it lies in finding out all the situational abilities and combinations of abilities your character is capable of. Fighting Games focus 100% on the combat (i'm not including 3-d games here) and it's the deepest that can be found. Depending on the game, the amount of options you have are comparatively *limitless.* So, to a player who sees value in that, it's worth the price of any other game and we'll play it more and for far longer than most will play those other games. Value is subjective anyway. Performance is not. If enough people see value, there will be market. They've never stopped making Fighting Games since Street Fighter II started it all going. :3 @ 9:12 Also wrong. Fighting Games have always *been* obscure. At least far more so than other genres. We're used to it. Do you have ANY clue how many new Fighting Games are released just every month??!! Availability can even outstrip demand, but that's a different issue. There is no lack of companies perfectly willing to spend LOTS to make a popular Fighting Game! :D
@@mikejonesnoreally That is true, Survival does exist, but it doesn't offer the same quality of content is say Weapon Master mode in SC. Weapon Master forced you to interact with certain elements of the game in order to progress (eg. some levels can only be beaten by killing the enemy with a wall combo), and thats generally what I mean: Modes that have the express purpose of teaching the player the games mechanics, and although Survival mode is a great extra it serves pretty much the same purpose as Arcade mode where you're fighting AI controlled opponents under the same conditons as regular VS matches. You make a point though that Survival should've been mentioned in some aspect, but it doesn't neccesarily disprove my point.
@@Ardrid_ i'll just take your first sentence, because to me Survival mode *does* offer *more* "quality of content" than the Weapon Master mode (which i have played) but that's subjective. The fact that you think you're "fighting AI controlled opponents under the *same* conditions" demonstrates that you really don't value Survival Mode as much. If you did you would know that there is one really important difference in that you are doing it all with one life bar. There can be more choices and more meaningful choices for me in a game of Street Fighter V Survival, than in any game of SC that i've played. i just disagree with your basic premise that Fighting Games aren't good as they are. Sure new things will get tried and be great, that's the beauty of the focus of Fighting Games, but that's *always* been true and has gotten us to where we are now. i feel you misrepresent the amount of actual single player stuff in Fighting Games but that can be arguable since it *really* varies from game to min-game to game. :3
No matter what gimmicks a fighting game will have, it will remain obscure, like it was. The problem with people who analyze "Why Fighting Games are not Popular, etch." is that they DON'T EVER mention the REAL ISSUES of getting into a fighting games. I'll say it bluntly - Fighting Games are for people who actually have skills, dexterity and the will much higher than that of any games, much higher than any FPS or MOBA. Another greatest drawback of getting into a fighting game is the fact that is a 1v1 with another person. You can argue that games like Starcraft or Warcraft, both which are strategy games has 1v1, but like the fighting game genre, they have been replaced by MOBA. But, even those strategy game I have mentioned have coop not like fighting games. Playing 1v1 and getting stomp over and over again is not fun for most people. An argument can be said that all games where other people are involved, you can also be stomped, but, when it comes to fighting games, it's almost unrecoverable. A person can definitely feel loosing in a fighting game and majority of people don't like a one sided battle, which Fighting Games are a master of. Hence why I say, fighting games are high skill level. Unless something bizarre happen, a high level player in a fighting game will beat a regular guy 100 out of 100, same reason why games like SC and WoW strategy games that does 1v1 have become obscure as MOBA games took over. While in other games like a MOBA and FPS, even it it just 1 out of a hundred, one can have the miracle of beating someone. And that 1% is what drives people to comeback to play. Now, the most important reason of all is this: MOBA's and Majority of the popular games of FPS are Free-to-Play. Sure, they have skins you can buy, but aside from that, they are FREE. Meaning ANYONE can access them. Fighting games? Nope. The best fighting games are paid. Why would you pay for something that you know that you will be curved stomped anyway. You can argue that in MOBA's and FPS you can still be curved stomped but, these games are group games so there's a higher chance you can still win even if carried and it's much easier to learn. Even if you fail, you will still feel like you contributed in a game vs in a fighting game that you will feel the lose. Fighting Game will never be as popular as other genres. That's a hard fact to swallow, and I've accepted that fact a long time ago, as much as I love fighting games. The GAP between a skilled player vs a casual who's just getting into the genre is so wide and hard to close that it will deter the later to pursue. Combine it with the fact that there is a pay wall, and I'm not even including DLC's here yet, vs todays modern popular games such as MOBA's and FPS are F2P, Fighting Games is slowly killing itself. If Fighting Games really want to at least see a bit of a change, I would suggest they start making it F2P. If they still continue on the route their doing, then there will be no change at all.
The £60 price tag for fighting games is odd as well. As the nature of fighting games it could either be overpriced if you bounce off the game after a few rounds and never play it again. Or it could be the best £60 you can spend in the industry as you can feasibly play 1000s of hours if you like the game and can have fun playing online or at home locally with friends.
I think the beat 'em up campaign is actually a really good idea. You can use enemy types that resist certain moves to introduce concepts one at a time, then test them with "bosses" that are just bots with certain behaviors disabled until you reach the end and must defeat your first actual bot that doesn't hold back
@@biggusdickus2166 They're fun, but they are also designed fundamentally as different games. They appear similar on the surface, but what goes into actually playing the games is very different.
@@alondite215 The thing is that it can work. *Smash just did it awfully.* 1. Reward using combos and differing play styles. (Don't use simple one-move enemies with health bars that can't be comboed.) 2. ... Honestly that's it. Smash _almost_ redeemed themselves with World of Light, but made it more of a _Creature Collector_ that rewarded strong attacks due to the spirit's differing stats rather than a _Fighting Game_ that rewarded combos.
any of y'all ever noticed how we've had for decades RPG games struggling to come up with interesting combat mechanics and fighting games struggling to come up with good solo play and expository content? Funny thing huh
Rpg's have came up with interesting mechanics even in the turn based versions with many things that shake up how the combat flows or is fought (bravely default, and persona/SMT for example) the main issue with these is many either only really work due to changes made to the original formula that they may and or may not want to make or are tied to that game for one reason or another and most notebly it takes alot more time to actually innovate something then to just slap the same thing you've done for years on there.
@@j2sketchy the thing is, some people just wanna load up a fighting game and have fun. However it's kinda impossible to do that without "putting in effort". The learning stages of fighting games are unfun and grindy for a lot of people, at that point why bother?
Theres a ton of gatekeepers for no reason. Like don’t they want sequels to their favorite games, why get all defensive when causal players ask for more content than just online? 🤣
@@sspah6870 wait I’m confused, I understand that people want to just “boot up just want to have fun” but why can’t they? Oh I understand they will go to fps who have “other modes” but still require you to shoot your opponent over and over again. Same thing no?(sarcastic btw) I’m taking the piss out of the fact that you call fighting games repetitive despite the fact you having to adapt in each match. And the unfun and Grindy comment is your opinion and I’m not going to argue with that. Oh btw did I say anything wrong about if you want to get better you have to put the work in? 🤔
Funnily enough so many of these problems have been tackled by indie games individually but there's never been a full package fighting game with all of these aspects together. I'm super hopeful for sf6, tekken 8 and project L. I feel like we're looking at the start of the golden age of fighting games right now.
Idk how Tekken Force would run in Tekken 8 maps with those graphics. They should make a setting to make the graphics low so that a PS5 or outdated pc could run it
Tekkenball, Tekken bowl and that beat em up Tekken mode were fire. More games need those. An adventure mode with stats buffs and stuff. I think ki and mk11 had something similar.
Your point about just being expected to "know things" is so true. As someone who's tried getting into many different fighting games over the years, I would always get scared away, just because of the sheer amount of frame data I would have to remember. As a newcomer, it's just not worth it at a certain point, when I just want to mess around or have fun with a game.
If tekken, Just remember your fast moves and if you feel the the opponent's move use to attack you is slow to recover, try the fastest one you got, then after that, try your move that is not fastest than the first one and if it connects, its good. And playing fighting games need experience, every game need experience. I don't know about LoL 5 years ago when my friends shows it to me, i'm too confused on what's happening and now I can make a review on the game and look for mistakes and good plays.
In reality, you don't need to know frame data, specially because things tend to be more standardized in most games of the last 10~15 years, except for Street Fighter 4 and 5. On offense: there's 0~1 moves you have that are positive, so you're incentivized to use them to restart your pressure at low risk. There's usually 1~2 moves you should NOT use to end your pressure because they're VERY negative. That's all. On defense: almost everything is slightly negative, so it's your turn after you block. There are usually 0~1 exceptions that are positive, so it's risky to press a button after blocking them. There's 1~2 moves that are VERY negative, so you should try to punish if you're in range. That's all.
@@CephlonMayngrum Casual gamers who begin in FG aren't ready to sit through 20 losses for 1 win online, to understand 1 matchup out of 40 characters. People like winning to stick around (dopmine)Team games provide a better chance like CSGO ect
@@NeonAstralOfficial In csgo its possible to find bad players to play with and against as a new player. The game being free and having lootbox gambling ensures theres always new people trying it out. Fighting games lack similar playerbase at the lower end that you can learn against. More importantly shooter games are easy to learn difficult to master mechanically. If you can click "launch game" you can use that same mouse clicking skill to win in a shooter game - the path to improving your clicking speed and precision is obvious and doesn't require any research to find out thats what you should be doing. Meanwhile in fighting games every single thing you can learn is new and abstract e.g. knowing how to throw a punch doesn't inform or naturally flow into learning grabs, blocking, combos or special moves - they're all discrete actions to be learned separately. Learning even a single character's moveset in a fighting game through trial and error alone is a fool's errand
The problem with fighting games is there is no onboarding process, I buy the game, never played a fighting game ever, hit quick play and promptly get stomped in 10 seconds by some random online. Arcade mode AI is rarely representative of actually fighting another person. The people that suck and are trying to learn the game are gone within the first 6 months, leaving only the veterans.
People under estimate the usefulness of practice mode I played fighting games for years before I really learned how to play people dong have the time or patience to learn
@@The4stro I tried BF 3 online and didn't like it too much but then I tried BF 1 and it made me look at multiplayer games with a whole new respect for their artistic value if immersion is maintained. (So no goofy doofy anime skins or whatever and a great soundtrack)
people always say the veterans are the only ones but there's always new players learning and becoming new veterans or decent players in just a few weeks. all of them just read the instructions and practiced and had fun, it's not the game it's you
My actual problem is that i play an old game online where everyone seems to be a master. It's hard to learn when you're constantly beaten without knowing how to react. And as you said, they're games, supposed to be fun. I always give another try, but there are days when i enter one match, got beaten as if i was playing against a pro, then simply close the game to not open it till another day.
Fighting games aren’t something you can learn, they either click with you or they don’t. I’ve been playing everything from DOA to Street Fighter my entire life. None of these tutorials or guides have ever helped me get better.
@@alexandermckay9521 wow look it's the kung fu master. Yeah you can learn them, go take pride in something useful instead of humble bragging about a video game.
@@alexandermckay9521 That's an absolutely ridiculous statement, no one ever picked up a fighting game and instantly understood every combo, mechanic, and every single nuance between the characters and their variations. Sure, you could argue that some people have innate advantages when it comes to reaction time or the speed at which they learn, but fundamentally, most of what makes up a "good player" is learning, practice, and the experience of getting their ass beat and learning from that too rather than dropping the game.
Exactly, and honestly is kind of boring hundreds of moves and just a few are used, besides revolves around juggling your opponents or trapping them, the game turns from a fighting experience with Styles, Powers, techniques, lore etc into a footsies contest and you are always out of control unless you copy that boring playstyle, it does not worth it, honestly Tekken 8 and SF 6 both look same as always and the absurd weight, a shitty fighting game like MKXI weights more than the Witcher 3 expansion included, that's stupid.
i think a helpful mode would be like an rpg lvling mode, where you start with very basic moves and as you progress through campaign lvl up and get morr moves to use until by the end you are a fully kitted figther. this allows the player to learn the game at a pace thats more easily digestible rather than starting out with every move and being overwhelmed.
That's how DFO works you don't have your whole kit. Yet I know players would STILL skip a helpful mode like that and still get mad the game "didn't help them enough"
This is the correct approach, have a good campaign which teaches the player bit by bit Its how i learned dissidia 012 final fantasy, which is probably the only fighting game to successfully do that
@@notproductiveproductions3504 he's not talking about something like that A rpg type campaign where the character starts out weak and has many of his moves locked, completely seperate from the actual multiplayer/ free battle/ arcad matches The leveling system cannot be used to cheat at PvP because its not there
Its been a while since figting games have felt like actual games and not just vs mode platforms, SF6 really gives me hope for fuller more inviting experiences on the future (strives "story mode" being just a movie was so so dissapointing btw) Great video man, insta subscribe :)
Guilty gear xrd had a great story mode and it was just a movie too, shoving gameplay into it takes the risks that MK and Street fighter v has taken of having the need to accommodate for a chapter where you stick with one character or making characters fight when it’s inappropriate and it causes the story to be much worse than guilty gear’s (as convoluted as it might be)
Main issue honestly is that people, me included are not willing to spend a week repeateadly learning a full move list in training mode before even starting to play online because its so boring and unsatisfying to play by pick up, while other games usually can be played and learned by pick up, its really hard to know what you are doing without training mode or tutorial mode, or even without reading pages of boring text in a fighting game. (also no joke im getting a hitbox delivered and i never owned a stick before lol)
No joke, I tried playing fighterz, I was bombarded with text boxes, saw the moves list and the mechanics and I just said "yeah, nevermind." I just get reminded why I don't play fighting games💀
You don´t need to learn a characters full move set before starting to play, that´s a very inefficient way of learning. Learn the basics than play, after awhile learn another thing and play some more, add things to your skill set over time. For example, if you study for an exam you don´t read a whole book from beginning to end and hope to memorize everything, you take it on chapter by chapter. The same thing applies to learning fighting games or anything else.
Fun fact, you don't need to be in training mode or learning for a week before going online. You only need to known like 2 of the best buttons to press, a basic combo, block and how to move in the screen and you're ready. The problem is that no fighting game tell you that, because unintuitive mechanics.
This is a nice video and makes some very good points. But the stuff you mentioned about street fighter 6 Netherrealm have been doing for years. They were amongst the first to provide frame data in fighting games. They have had so many extra features in Mortal kombat and have used roll back net code for ages.
I started taking fighting games seriously with MK11. I was very surprised to see that most games don't offer a fraction of what's pretty much the norm in NRS fighting games as far as accessibility, single player content and teaching new/casual players the game.
@@qu1253 There's been no announcement for MK 12 and any current news is just speculation at this point. If you were interested in Tekken 7 or Street Fighter 5 I'd have told you to wait because those 2 franchises actually are confirmed to have their sequels released this year. Not the case for MK 11, so go ahead and jump in.
Out of the current fighting games, Nether Realm Studios (creators of Mortal Kombat 9/10/11 and Injustice 1 and 2) has stayed true to having the normal 1v1 side of things while at the same time having a lot to do in the single player realm. In Mortal Kombat 11 you have the story mode, along with an expansion that they've added (only fighting game to do that), regular towers, Towers of Time, (which is like regular towers, but with modifiers and bonuses), you can fight an extremely hard boss tower with 2 other players (similar to a difficult nightfall in a game like Destiny 2). It also has the crypt mode. The game teaches you about frame data, resources and resource management, the game's mechanics etc. I noticed when I attempted to branch out to other fighting games (KOFXV, Tekken, Melty Blood: Type Lumina) they were lacking in a few or all of those things. Tekken didn't even come with frame data at the beginning, it was given out as paid DLC.
And what happens to nether realm studio games? They are left worse and not even that well respected within the FGC community, even something new like DB Fighters managed to overtake MK in popularity
@@j2sketchy NRS games are always gonna be popular. The reason the overall FGC has an issue with NRS games is a few reasons. 1) NRS is not a Japanese dev. The overall FGC has an elitist sentiment against fighting game devs that aren't Japanese. As if Japanese devs are the only ones that can make proper fighting games. 2) Since most Japanese developed games have similar global mechanics and aesthetics, most of the FGC expect every fighting game to have those same things (ie hold back to block, motion inputs, lack of blood and gore, cartoonish/anime look for most if not all 2D fighters etc) 3) NRS games focus on making things accessible for newer players and on the single player experience and most other fighting games do not. The overall FGC believes that fighting games shouldn't be fun outside of 1v1 competition. But at the same time the overall FGC is waiting for a Japanese dev to do what NRS is doing, which is why folks are so hyped about SF6. It's as interesting as it is ironic.
@@smoothsavage2870 tbh I think I need more to support your elitist claims about NRS not being Japanese studio, because I know many competitive players who like MK they just need more depth to their fighting games rather than casual friendly games, the ideas of “fun” is subjective. If you buying a fighting game at £60 to predominately play single player modes for like a weak and never touch the game again you think that’s a good use of your money then that’s fine with you. But I understand the simple concept that if I actually don’t want to get stomped on a fighting game then I HAVE to put the work in and no amount of crying about how other people are better than me is going to fix anything. Tbh the more new gen fighting games have been getter no simplistic and simpler, Blazblue Crosstag, MVCI, SF5, GG Strive, DB Fighterz, even T7 having preset buttons etc and people still play those fighting games competitively. So I disagree with that statement. In fact the more complicated fighters like blazblue CF have a smaller fan base than any of these casual friendlier games. Even the same MK11 got nerfed from MKX.
@@j2sketchy Ok I have an example. Guilty Gear Strive has been lauded for having rollback netcode as if it's the first fighting game that's done this. American devs have been using properly implemented rollback netcode for nearly a decade at this point (Iron Galaxy/Killer Instinct 2013 & NRS/Mortal Kombat X and 11 and Injustice 2). But when Strive came out, everyone acted like ArcSys was the first to do this. So i questioned why this was. A lot of the responses i got was because Strive is the first title where Japanese devs implemented good rollback, so it was groundbreaking for fighting games. As for other forms of elitism, those are things i encounter in regards to the competitive scenes of the fighting games. A lot of people think that NRS competitors cant perform well in Japanese games like Tekken or Street Fighter. They beat down the NRS pro players about this all the time. If you're in spaces where these communities come together (like Button Check or some of RobTV's TH-cam podcasts), then you'll see it happen in the comments first hand.
@@smoothsavage2870 imma be honest with you. The thing that I hate about mortal combat and those other fighting games you listed is that the neutral/ combo game is just boring and/or clunky to me. Coming from someone who's play MvC3, USF4, DBFZ, Skullgirls, and Tekken 7. The combo/ neutral game for those you listed just fall flat on their faces imo. (Killer instinct is a love and hate relationship for me though so not including that one) How other people beat down on pros bc they don't like that specific game isn't on the community. That's literally just how people are in any game that's remotely competitive. Same shit happens in FPS, MOBAs, MMOs, ect. There will always be a crowd that thinks something else is better and they go there to preach it bc they have nothing else to do. You think fighting games are bad? Play WOW. You'll see how the elitism stacks up against this game lmao. You cant get into a dungeon group without the minimum gear they state, EVEN IF ITS OVERKILL.
I haven’t played many fighting games outside of Super Smash Bros, and I think this video perfectly encapsulates why I’m so hesitant to. There doesn’t seem to be much to do in most of them other than just play standard VS matches over and over, and understanding the controls and mechanics of these games so that you can fully enjoy what little content there is takes a lot of commitment.
there is fighting game back in 2004 that allow you to mix your character fighting style after this no one ever copy them i was talking about def jam fight for NY
I wouldn’t say it’s so much, a lack of content, more like the fighting mechanics and how they work ARE the content, and if you aren’t into learning match-ups, learning the in-depth aspects of a character, etc. you won’t enjoy them for long. It’s really no different then a lot of competitive focused games (where the opponent and what they are personally able to do is the content)
@@djandjb1 while that's true for 1v1 modes, you can also have modes where learning the match ups are less important and give you time to familiarize with the basic controls instead of getting wailed on by someone who's played FGs for the past 10 years. Like party modes or single player campaigns. Smash has understood this from the very start with items and free for all, even if they still had a tryhard competitive mode. Some people will be happy playing as is, while someone who wants to try more has an environment to start having fun first.
I don't know if that explains their lack of popularity given that games having content at all is a fairly recent development, if we look at the history of games as a whole rather than video games specifically. I mean Chess doesn't have any content really, nor does Poker or Tennis or Basketball. It's just a set of rules and all you can do with them is play matches against an opponent. It's not as if they have different levels or characters, there are rule variations but then fighting games have things that are pretty analogous to that too. Then again I wouldn't be surprised if all those games are less popular than video games in terms of the number of people enjoying them casually, but nonetheless you never really hear people complaining that they're dead and nobody wants to play them like you do with fighting games. At least I haven't heard anybody doing that. Actually maybe that could kind of explain it. Most video games, at least more popular games, are arguably more similar to films or TV in that they're platforms to deliver content to be consumed, as opposed to traditional games that are systems to be mastered. Of course these games still have systems, but they work in tandem with the content to form a whole package as opposed to being the central focus, like they are in other kinds of video games and more traditional games. I really enjoy content-focused games but let's be honest, it takes a lot less effort to consume content than it does to learn the ins and outs of an arbitrary set of rules, so maybe this is why those kinds of games are popular and genres that are more system-focused like fighting games aren't. I mean watching TV is more popular than playing sports, too. But then again AGAIN, I really don't think other competitive genres like shooters or Dota or TCGs have much more content than fighting games, hell some of them arguably have less. I mean most multiplayer shooters don't have an arcade mode, do they? Sure you can play with bots, but you don't even get a boss or a cute ending like you would in a fighting game. And yet they're more popular. So I really don't know.
Great vid! I totally agree that the lack of features in fighting games is what truly holds them back. These devs have been slow to learn, but it looks like ArcSys is stepping up in connectivity and SF6 is stepping up with the content that the game offers, so hopefully those two combined is enough to convince the others to catch up
lmao people don't like losing, Fighting games are competitive, the whole point of the game is playing against another person, and people want participation trophies
@@eclisis5080 Eeeehhh.... card games are mostly 1v1 as well; And much like fighting games there are people who enjoy learning how to pilot a deck or people complaining about balance if they lose. And Digital CCGs is quite a huge market with YGO, MTGA and Hearthstone. Cards games although have the upside of you collecting cards you want/need to keep engagement up.
@@markjack9772 Pretty clear to me that you have no idea how modern digital card games work. Gatcha might still be a think, but most card games have wild cards that allow you to get the cards you want. I only used the collection track as a possible pool as to why people stick to card games, as ultimately it is still called CCG (Collectible Card Game). I'll go even further on something that most cards games do better than fighting games; Having a core/base set, a set of beginner cards that everyone gets access to in the beginning, with the purpose of teaching basic gameplay mechanics to the players.
When playing fighting games, I personally tend to gravitate towards series with strong single player content like Soulcalibur as you mentioned and Mortal Kombat for example. There can be fighting games with provide mechanical depth for hardcore fans while also giving casual fans more reasons to keep playing fighting games. This was a great video! Well Done!
I like the Tale of Souls in Soul Calibur 3 a TON. It makes combat feel like there is a goal you work towards, even if the balance quickly becomes evil no-hit challenges every fight. I like the challenge regaurdless, since I like having my wins and losses have larger impact overall. (Imagine an RTS where you control 5 units, and each unit reprisents a character. When that character touches the enemy character, you go into a normal fighting match, and your health carries over, with your enviroment giving buffs and debuffs.)
I'm gonna reply to my own message to highlight it as being something I REALLY hope they do again. Fusing RTS with FIghting Games is a thing I call a stroke of genius. Your SKILL can make your 1 man army (Your Main) against the swarm of low health grunts that come 3 at a time (Each going down with one KO, and a different one with a different appearance) feel justified and fair, since YOU worked for those wins! The POWER of struggling to beat 3 opponents that are not easy by any means, but just have smaller health bars. It feels AMAZING. If you want proof, look at the fights against the Jack 5's in Tekken 7. Felt amazing to crush those bots, but it was isolated to the story mode. By all means, allow us to litter the battlefield with the bodies of out fallen foes! Our victory pose surrounded by 10 grunts (That were not easy) would feel amazing.
@@Parelf i think those are more like action combat games. I think fighting games are more so like chess. A strict 1v1 type deal. It would be pretty cool if you did have dynamic maps, with dyanmic scenarios, and the ability to take direct control of units to fight other units. I just think it would be to far detached from what a fighting game would actually be. If you zero in on the actual skill expression and fighting mechanics, it would take away from the over all map battle. If you focus to much on map battle, then it could ruin the 1v1 combat. Then you have the issue of the skill curve. Obviously you would need to be ver good at RTS and Fighting games. Thats two different skill sets you need to master, and like i mentioned before, if the game tries to simplfy one or the other, it would ruin balance. The skill ceiling would be way to high. It would end up being very obscure and not popular. It is like Boxing and Chess are huge. Boxing chess is much smaller. You can get massive specialists in boxing and chess seperatly. IS a boxing chess master, actually better than a boxer or a chess grandmaster? No. They just won't be good enough vs the specilization. They are just good enough to do both decently. There is no way you would get a chess grandmaster in a pro boxing ring, and you wouldn't catch a pro boxer trying to get top 8 in a chess tourney either.
@@yummychips_ dude trust me and Mac, the mode actually works. Your concern about "map" battle really only happens a couple times when there's a strong gust of wind on the stage, the floor is ice or the flooding labyrinth thing And nah you really didn't need to be good at rts'ing. Just ramrod your way through the forts and force a 1v1 (or take on waves of said opponents like in mortal kombat's endurance matches). Hell I made a team of CAS Takis (had to level them up of course) and literally Taking my way thru it all for fun
I think the genre's biggest misstep in history is the push to appeal more toward hardcore players, (or players who are already familiar with fighting games) while being unconcerned with new players' experiences. If you stuck with street fighter since 2, you were plenty primed for something like Marvel vs Capcom, because the games leading up to it kept building on aspects, complexity, and nuance, while forgetting to properly reintroduce concepts to new players. A lot of this probably comes from arcades, where new players weren't as much of a factor toward success as the fans who played consistently. They got comfortable adding complexity, raising the skill floor, and raising the skill ceiling, but they forgot to add ladders to help players climb up to that initial floor. Guilty Gear Strive is the first fighting game in a long time to truly break the game down to its roots, examine what keeps new players from understanding fighting games, and took great steps to rebuild the entire structure into an approachable, easy to understand, easy to read package. You can watch a Strive match at 144p and still tell what's happening. I think that does a lot more than people realize.
People should be rewarded for legacy skill though and new players can learn the game through practice and fighting other new players while i get where you're coming from i don't entirely agree
@@jenpachi2408 There needs to be a compromise, and "hardcores" feeling shorthanded will be an inevitable side-effect. End of the day, appealing to the current FGC makes zero financial sense (or it's getting closer to zero). New players shouldn't be left in the dirt, and the loyal playerbase need their loyalty rewarded. Both need to be done at the same time, but if it is not possible to be perfect in both cases, the future of the FGC depends on leaning towards servicing new players. You can't just say that new players should just sit down and grind, that's just making excuses for why the FGC should keep stonewalling growth. The hardcores aren't enough to keep the FGC alive.
@@jenpachi2408 And fundamentally, that's the way it works for pretty much any other multiplayer battle game in other genres (good ones, I mean). You are rewarded for skill, but you aren't stuck at the bottom
Completely disagree. Fighting games are inherently competitive games that, without the element of fighting another human being, are just really, really clunky and limited action games. Strive didn't do anything new. Fighting games have been simplifying themselves for years thinking that was their issue when complexity never harmed sales in any genre whatsoever. SFIV was sold on simplification and accessibility. SFV was sold on further simplification (and it did little good). All current fighting games present themselves as accessible, even though the issues are with learning tools and side content for casuals who are never to want to learn the game anyway.
Honestly, the reason why I shy away from fighters isn't that they aren't appealing to me or that I don't enjoy learning complex or difficult games. It's because the learning stages of a fighting game are grindy to the point of tedium, and it takes so long to get past those grindy and unfun learning stages that it just doesn't feel worth it. In the time it takes me to just get decent at a single fighting game (not even good, just to reach a point where I don't get endlessly juggled), I could finish multiple other games.
and just like playing chess you can't do much until you learn how to play, do you inherently know the rules of chess or how every piece moves before learning it? no so why would any fighting game be different.
@@joedatius mmm yes comparing a centuries year old game to an entire videogame genre to demonstrate why accessibility isn’t necessary. Yep that’ll show em
@@thepikminbrawler1746 The OP comment is literally doing the same thing because thats what an analogy is. sorry you couldn't understand it but the point of my comment is how you can't start a game you never played before and except to know how the game works. where the did you even read me say anything about accessibility or being against it, why would i be against it?? accessibility is about making rules understandable and helping a player get a grasp on them and the more fundamental parts of a game. stuff like clear and understandable tutorials, informative practice modes, single player content to allow people to gain some affinity with how a game even plays and various options for your UI and sound that can help you understand mechanics and improve your individual readability.
Exactly why they are fun, you will eventually learn every piece and how to utilize or beat em. Blazblue is my personal favorite because there is so much to learn
I been playing fighting games for a long time now. And learning basic combos and character specials were always enough for me to get by. I play online for a bit, but get super bored not because I lose or whatever, but it just gets repetitive. I love fighting games for the characters, the lore, and the single player if they offer it. I love customizing my characters, and getting to know more of them through arcade endings or story modes. (Edit: If you like playing online thats awesome. But, I rather fight people locally when I do go 1 V 1, because we can make up rules, choose different characters so we don’t have to fight the same characters over and over, and have a good conversation after. Nothing wrong if you enjoy playing with randoms, but to me that’s not the reason I fell in love with fighting games.)
The thing is that it shouldn't be repetitive to play online. If you're adapting your gameplan to the matchup or player, then every match should be different
@@goby1764 exactly my point, ngl this guy sounds cool however some other people who have the same talking points as this guy use it as an excuse to not get any better at the game anfdd blame the genre.
@@goby1764 Even if the match ups are different its still playing the same mode over and over. I get what you’re saying about learning to adapt and play different players, but that would mean Im still playing 1 V 1 with randoms and to me thats repetitive. Thats why I like when fighting games offer more than just online, training, and a bare bones arcade mode.
@@j2sketchy If other people are saying the same thing as I am I wouldn’t say we are making an “excuse” to not get good. Its just some players love fighting games for the characters, story, and having casual fun mainly with local play. Not everyone needs to get good, because not everyone wants to play competitive or challenge others online. Heck theres even youtube channels dedicated to just talking about the stages, music, characters, and lore. Theres a place for both types of players, and what matters the most is that both types of players support and love fighting games.
@@knighttrax4237 Ok I see what you’re doing here and you’re not going to twist it into some sort of “elitist vs casual chat”. I never said casual can’t enjoy. I am saying stop saying silly things like “repetitive” when it’s not true because by definition the word “adapt” breaks that talking point. Because to adapt means you have to change therefore meaning it’s by definition NOT repetitive. And with the 1 V1 you can make the same generic argument with story games. Like for example god of war, DMC “I just go and kill many enemies then watch a Cutscene and then fight a boss that’s repetitive.” Like that argument doesn’t make sense because whether it’s a 1 V1 or 2V2 the match ups need adapting! Not everyone needs to get good, I agree but then if you don’t want to take time to get good at the game why cry and complain about others who took time to? And listen, if you are casual(which I am too) and you literally only buy fighting games for the story offline play etc) and you don’t complain or anything that’s fine, but if you are a casual and then go and cry about people who actually take time to get good at the game then you are making excuses because you could do the same thing they do but you don’t want to. They also bought the game fair and square let them play how they wany
I think an important thing you missed is the difficulty of finding "optimal" combos, of course most games usually have a combo trial mode but this is rarely the actual useful / optimal combos you want to be doing as an intermediate player. A game that addresses this really well is Guilty Gear Strive with their combo recipe system which I'd love in every fighting game TBH, it makes finding combos a lot easier and an actual fun way to play the game as well.
Fighting games, for the most part, are still stuck in the Arcade Era, whereas every other genre has moved on. Even niche genres like Rythm games and Shoot 'em Ups have seen great success in the indie scene because they continue to innovate. Heck, some of the greatest advancements in fighting games have happened in indie games. Why do AA and AAA studios struggle so much to do the same?
LOVE IT. I've been only playing fighting games since 2020, but throught those two years so much critisism and acknolwledgemnt of lack of polish in key features have been discussed so much recently. It makes me really excited fo the next titles. Two things I would like to point out, it's pretty obvious that japanese game developers are the ones struggling the most trying to adapt and deliver a product of quality. MK11 and western indie fighting games do so much right when talking about onboarding and online features. And secondly, as you have said with tekken, it's impossible to know if a move is plus or minus on block without looking at a google sheet. One clever solution I would love to see in the future is the way Fantasy Strike implemented it when a move is blocked, the colors of the blockstun effect change depending on frame data. If a move is 0, it shows a yellow effect If a move is plus, it shows a blue effect If a move is minus, it shows a red effect. This feedback via colors would do so much for begginers to understand basic frame data without even looking at a google sheet. I would love to see it in more titles in the future.
Fighting game people say they want features, but when fighting games do have features, not only do players not use them, but they complain that they even exist. Fighting game people are creatures of habit. Which only makes sense, because fighting games have some of the worst learning curves and ratios of time spent to time enjoyed.
Good video overall. I am surprised by some large omissions. You mentioned Smash as a fighting game but ignored Mortal Kombat and Injustice. Mk11 had massive sales and maintains a large casual audience. MK11 and Injustice 2 have large single player story modes, and significant RPG-ish single player content. Both are published by WB Games. Multiverses is not WB’s entrance into fighting games.
Mortal Kombat and Injustice were admittedly a big ommision from me, mainly cuz I have little experience with them personally. But it is true that MKX and MK11 both sold around 12 million units (which is insane for fighting games) largely because of what you mentioned. Thing is though, Netherrealms' library of fighters is generally the exception at the moment rather than the norm, and in this video I was detailing how the other big players have managed to finally figure out how important good content, excellent online and intuitive combat really is.
Injustice 1 and Mortal Kombat Komplete Edition taught me that modern fighting games are not for me. I wasn't even able to pass their Advanced TUTORIALs because I was literally unable to do some of the required combo moves no matter how I much I tried. I did manage to complete their stories, which at least in Injustice 1 turned out to be easier than the aforementioned tutorial, but MKK story mode was the horrible experience of me bashing my head against the AI opponents until they dumbed themselves down to punching bags.
I just remembered MK Deception, heh. In this game were awesome single player modes: konquest and chess kombat (I was playing at chess even more than ladder lol). Too bad they don't do things like this anymore.
A lot of fighting games before the internet age had a lot of modes and replay value. Not only that, but they had unlockables, which modern fighting games shy away from. SF6 will be a huge test if the RPG mode will be successful in a fighting game or not. Tobal 1 and 2 don't count lol. I think SF6 is going to be a game changer. Hopefully FG devs will learn and make great single player experiences, and use modern netcode.
I play almost every genre of video game except for racing games (I can’t stand the rubber-banding in those games) and fighting games. I used to play fighting games, back when I was a kid and you could invite friends over and play against each other. The minute I left middle school, I stopped. Last “fighting game” I ever played was…. Tekken Tag Tournament? I’ve never bothered to even try to get back in to fighting games since then. The terminology employed is almost deliberately opaque, and while there are some who are trying to get new people into fighting games, the actual games themselves don’t seem too eager to be inviting. Rather, they seem to be focused on appealing to the hard-core crowd to the exclusion of new players.
I think it's just an infeasible value proposition for a lot of people. A full price AAA game plus essentially mandatory DLC plus often some sort of battle pass in some of them, for what essentially amounts to what appears to be what would be a minigame in a much older PS1-PS2 era game. No matter how much depth and replayability it has, they just appear to have nowhere near enough content to justify their price, unless you're entrenched enough in the scene that you can derive literally thousands of hours out of it, with a massive time investment and grind before you can even start having fun with it. It's just so hard to sell someone on $100+ for a single 2D multiplayer only game mode you have to dedicate your time to before you can actually start playing it for real. To a lot of people buying a fighting game feels like paying for 2 games and getting a third of a real one.
1. There is no battle pass in fighting games 2. fighting games don't cost full price, idk where people are getting this notion, but it's wrong. At most FGs cost 50 dollars, at least it's 5 (and all of them have over 100+ players playing them). 3. DLC isn't mandatory if you wait a year there will be a "arcade version" where the first DLC pass is included with the base game. Or (if you playing SF5) you can just use fight money.
I have got an idea about a fighting game: A game similar to team fortress 2 where there is a small roaster of fighters and instead of changing the weapons you change the attacks of each fighter. And the attacks could have the same balance philosophy of team fortress 2 where they are "creative side-grades" instead of "regular sidegrades". (The term "creative side-grade" is a term that I had to come up just now because there ia no other way of describing them. In team fortress 2 the sidegrades aren't just "we changed the stats of the weapon and we called it a day", they are often more "we decreased some stats and made up for them by adding extra features like the weapon having a charge shot or guaranteed critical hits under certain conditions or helps you regain health etc). Such system would add variety to the game without the need to make a huge roaster of characters thus making it easier for begginers to know how to react to each opponent and they wouldn't need to memorize a crapload of combos.
We live in tiktok era, people just want to have fast fun, that's why shooters are so popular, just shoot someone and have fun... Fighting games are more deep and dificult to learn, not for everyone sadly.
This has nothing to do with modern generation. I was getting my ass handed to me by fireball spammers that I couldn't copy and cheap AI in the 90s. Fighting games have a huge learning curve in learning combos, you have to do crazy things with your controls requiring fast fingers, strong memory and read your opponent like no other game. There's a reason popular beat em up games only had punch, kick and block, it's a great basic fundamentals to start from.
I don't need the whole genre to change. I just want one fighting game where 1) I don't need to memorize 6+ button combos for 20+ characters to know what I'm up against 2) I don't need to learn weird unintuitive rocket science like frame data to actually understand what does and doesn't work as a combo or is easy to punish etc. 3) I have more options to get enjoyment out of the game than just getting my head bashed in by people who have been playing this genre for decades
Nice video. Very impressive for the first one on your channel. Good flow to the script, good music selection, good audio levels, and good editing. Well done.
The one and only thing I HATE the most to do in fighting games whenever I’m playing the PS1, Sega Dreamcast, PS2, PSP, Xbox 360 and Nintendo Switch (the only video game consoles that I have and played growing up from my childhood to recently in my adulthood) is doing combos because they’re so freaking hard and difficult to get right and I’m not really into that a lot and I don’t think I will forever because I’m a CASUAL fighting game fan, always have always will. I just want to play fighting games so I can mess around and have fun. I just want to play fighting games that has lots of content for me to do, lots of replay value, different games modes, different controller types, appeals to CASUALS and DIEHARDS and most importantly, LOTS OF FUN! And I hoping that this next console generation will have companies learn from their mistakes and make fighting games better than ever before and fun for everyone else including me. Awesome job on the video, dude!👍🏾❤️🥊🎮
this video is dope. it’s always nice to see newer creators and especially new FGC ones! i look forward to more of your videos whether fighting games or not, and good luck to the grind homie. a lot of the points in this video is valid and you have such a natural delivery, sick editing too- i’m really rooting for you!
Maybe this sounds a bit elitist to say but IMO I feel you can't change much about the "Information Overload" for FGs. Sure you can make it easier to understand 'when you should press and when you shouldn't' or 'what you situations there are to consider'. But at the end of the day if the player chooses to 'just have fun' in what is a naturally competitive environment without attempting to learn, they will eventually turn away anyways and just not play the game. And I'm decently sure some of the devs see this and choose not to add content for people who won't come. My argument is flawed I know. But for me I grew up playing games where half the fun is learning the game itself. That's why I choose Fighting Games over other genres. Cause there is always more to learn.
I agree, especially since a lot of the genre's fundamentals stay the same between games, its kind of a legacy skill youre meant to develop over time. You cant just do a tutorial and suddenly have godlike neutral, even reading forums like dustloop and mizuumi and learning what moves are plus and minus on block, its hard to immediately understand what that means or looks and feels like, short of gaining that experience firsthand. Though fighters should have more technical training modes like skullgirls, fantasy strike, or arcsus chroma, in the sense that it gives you the frame data straight up, even hitstun windows. but just like you said regardless of if they give you that information directly its up to you to apply it.
NRS putting in Krypt along with towers and augment builds is kinda a nice direction for messing around with stuff that goes outside of just straight vs mode
I think another very big issue (to casuals) is how long the matches are. If they’re used to FPS games, then dying is not a big deal because they’re getting kills often enough to feel like small victories. Compare that to a fighting game where the match can easily last 3 minutes and if you lose, that’s it. There’s no small victory like earning kills in CoD death match. In a fighting game, losing is just losing and it makes the whole match feel like a waste of time (to casuals)
Interesting point. In that sense, I think Tekken, Versus games and platform fighters do a nice job of giving you smaller wins along the way, just because Tekken can be very explosive with ft3 rounds (instead of having longer rounds), in Versus games you can take characters and in platform fighters you can take stocks. Guilty Gear Strive could also go with ft3 rounds with how explosive it is, and it would probably be beneficial.
I think at that point its about shifting priorities no? less from "just wanting to win" and more of "I just want to land this" which is infinitiely more achievable then beating someone.
@@binis6452 sure, but what I meant is fighting games should literally add goals like that. Like “Land 20 special moves today” or something that you can achieve while still losing
My personal problem with fighting games I am bad at figuring out what links into what and how to use that. Also the timing in a lot of fighting games bothers me. It's not that I can't do the input fast it's just in a lot of fighters that's not enough. As in it's not enough to just do the input as fast as you can you have to have a very specific timing that isn't always told to you and can be hard to grasp. I just like to mess around in fighters. I even have fun fighting AI opponents.
Yeah, that's part of the challenge. Links are tough, and vary depending on game and character. Even Gatlings can be tough. That's why fighting game *are* difficult. You need to have the ability to execute tight timings constantly. That's not unique to fighting games though. Even Platformers like Kaizo, IWB, WoV all have incredibly demanding inputs.
@@BlahBlahFreeman Platformers are the games I am best at. Your not wrong but in fighting games the timing is more abstract. IF you get your timing wrong in a platformer you just die. If you get it wrong in a fighting game then nothing happens or something different happens. Also the timing isn't as clear.
It's inspiring to see someone's first video be so high quality and be rewarded for it. I hope that your success so far will motivate you to make more videos. Thank you for uploading; it truly means more to me than I'm able to articulate.
50% of the reasons I don't but fighting games anymore is because they are to expensive, with each announcing season passes, freemium mechanics and other "must have to stay competitive" Dlc before it even comes out as if it is a good thing. 40% of the reasons is that with most of the content being DLC, the game doesn't have collection value like physical games do, rising my buyer's remorse through the roof. The last 10% is that I'll get my ass handed to me by all the veterans, when I'll eventually buy the "Complete edition" at the end of the game's life.
The issue I have with fighting games is the disjoint between what I want my character to do, and what the character on the screen does. The fact that I have to do a specific sequence of inputs to preform a move which I could be able to perform with a single button in any other genre seems like a remnant of a bygone era that artificially inflates dificulty and makes the learning curve more steep for no valid reason. In RTS, RPGS, MOBA's and literally any other genre there is instant feedback, I press a button, the character does exactly what I told them to. Having to practice sequences of inputs, timings to cancel animations and learn combos to execute them by memory is not a prospect I find enjoyable in the slightest.
I like the way gg strive uses positive reinforcement through its announcer. Everytime you time a counter hit it will tell you. Also things like burst and roman cancels look flashy and have a really clean animation that makes it easy to read that incourages people to use it and feel good about using it. And makes it easier to figure out what the counter play is as well. Edit: just got to this part of the video. Glad you mentioned it, it is really good xD
The Story mode for SF6 is a massive deal when it comes to familiarizing people with basic concepts on how to play fighting games and it shouldn't be overlooked. having your own player agency to just walk around with your character and fight at your leisure in a solo setting does wonders when it comes to teaching people how to play and how to enjoy your game naturally. Especially since you're not just fighting constantly but also exploring and progressing and gaining new things that also give the player a connection with characters and the setting allowing them to actually gain an affinity to the game first so you're not just picking from a roster of characters you never met and only know from pop culture osmosis but you're choosing to play as Jamie or Ken because you saw them do something cool in the story or because Blanka was funny when you hang out with him, yeah sure you might not know how to use his combos perfectly but you like the character and thats a big deal when it comes to not only making people interested in a game but also keep playing when there is more to grab onto.
Got this on my recommended. Then noticed is your first video on the channel. Congrats, it’s really polished :) All your points really sum up why fighting games aren’t perceived as fun by many. It took me 300 hours to somewhat understand what I am doing and what I should do in tekken. It was something that I have never experienced before and it really hit hard.
I love the video it's very well done. I really hope all Fighting games get updated with Rollback eventually. The thing with teaching tools/modes in fighting games is that even if we give all the information players will still lose because that's just the nature of it. So even if a player is improving if they lose they'll feel like it was all for nothing. Incredibly unsafe moves can be turned into an attack with a huge advantage. See the problem isn't necessarily that games aren't telling us what to punish. Especially if you look at ArcSys tutorials/mission modes where they give you the answers. The problem more so lies in Fighting Games are lot more freeform than people realize. Sure we can spell out every single attack give them all the frame data tools but that's honestly never going to help because a large part of the fun, exhilaration, and strategy in fighting games comes from the ambiguity of your opponent and what options they'll do next. There's literally no guide on that especially once you consider no one ever plays the same in a fighting game. We can pick the exact same characters but focus on completely different aspects. Which is when the players have to figure out their opponent MID MATCH and win. Labbing, frame data, video guides, coaching, and comeback mechanics can only do so much for teaching the player but the reality is that the player should constantly adapt to the new challenge and come up with a gameplan on the fly. That's when most people quit. Because then they realize "Oh fuck I'm still fighting for my life despite all the hours of training" and yeah that's fighting games. Do you think Pros win all the time NO! They just have much easier time adapting to OTHER GOOD PLAYERS which is something new players hate doing which is fighting a better opponent. They want an "equal". Misdirection on these deeper concepts is why FGs still seem so impenetrable. There will never truly be a perfect learning environment that is comparable to playing the matches and try to adapt to your new opponent of this 30+ character cast. Think of Tekken 7 moves and try to imagine what it would be like for a player to study EVERY SINGLE MOVE. A single character has over 100 moves and they can all be applied in various ways. So not only would they learn 54 x 100 moves but also any other form they can be in. There's simply no way to conveniently give information to the player especially trying to sort out what they truly need to overcome their skill plateau. That honestly comes down to the dedication and practice habits of the player. Which is something FGC seems to never want to admit but it's true. It's mostly the current mindset of the players and this incident demand to cater to them more and more and more but without ANY of the WORK. Then somehow complain they can't beat someone who's knows the game because they played it more and studied hard. Which is 100% how it's always going to be. The sooner players start to take more accountability that's when we'll see more better players but atm.... They're just following a scripted sequence some video tried to brainwash them into 😕 How are you supposed to teach someone something like this? More controversially should you even teach crazy things like this even though it's utterly ridiculous and hard as hell to do? th-cam.com/video/YJ7UH8nbB3I/w-d-xo.html The whole idea of why you don't know things in a fighting game is horribly miscalculated. There's so much going on with the Player themselves that isn't ever considered or even really talked about. Was it because of new and better learning tools that Capcom gave why Daigo won that fight? No. It was him. All him and that's the beauty of fighting games. Compare Fighting Games to any other online game. Fighting Games give you waaaaaay more than all these other popular multiplayer games and yet we still insist "It's the games fault I'm not learning". Did any of the Call of Duties give you advance tutorials on all the maps of all weapon types and loadouts? No literally just dumps you into the game. No tutorial no nothing and yet people still found and made their own advanced tech like slide cancelling to move around the map at insane speed while maintaining control of your gun. Yet nobody was up in arms about how the game isn't trying to to teach you things and they still figured everything out. Honestly we just got a lot weaker in the FGC when it comes to trying to get more players. Now we're straight up lying to them why they're losing games.
I wanted to get in on the whole "unintuitive" discussion. So, I've been playing fighting games for about twenty years now. I've played every single Tekken release, 1-7,though I very rarely play online because I can't say I like very much. I mostly played with a group of IRL friends or alone. When the video asked me to say what moves were safe on block, my reaction was: what the hell does safe on block mean? I keep hearing about "frame data". I have no clue what that means. I learnt that it was even possible to block throws about 3 years after Tekken 7's release. Still don't know how to do that though. I discovered that counter hits are a thing probably a year before that. When TTT2's tutorial taught me juggle combos, my reaction was: "Wait,you're SUPPOSED to do that? We... we spent literal years forbidding each other from doing that because we thought it was an unsportsmanlike exploit that you weren't supposed to do!" Yeah. I think it's pretty damning for the FG genre when not one but multiple players can play the same FG series for decades and not even realise the EXISTENCE of mechanics that competitive players say are "basic" mechanics.
you definitely have some good points but I think the reason traditional fighting games aren't very popular is because the skill gap can be stagnating for newer players.
This logic can apply to any game. You can make any game seem as simple or as complicated as you'd like, and if you enjoy yourself it being complex shouldn't stop you from learning the game in question. I think it's more that tournaments and such give this fake impression that you HAVE to learn every little thing going in, even though when you play any game and when people first played fighting games in the arcades, they simply found the games cool and went for it without worrying about everything there would be to learn immediately
@@doomman7349 Thats why single player is so important for this genre, theres just so much to learn so a campaign that eases you into the mechanics of the game and gives you chances to makes use of them is definitely going to attract more players.
@@doomman7349 the whole point of fighting games is playing against another person, you mentioned arcade, nobody played fighting games in the arcade in single player mode lmao, it was always against other people, only way to do that in person no ideas is tournaments, because there aren't anymore arcades or local play at your house, and people don't socialize like that anymore that's why online gaming is popular and co op games don't exist anymore that play locally
@@doomman7349 In games where it's not 1v1, you can get past the skill gap because you'll have teammates that can carry you until you get better. In fighting games, you have only yourself to depend on.
That I think is something depending on the kind of person you are. On one hand you might find it better to play team based games for the reason you mentioned, or you'd be playing fighting games because you prefer not having anything affect the outcome other than you and the obstacle you're facing
Man... As someone who grew up playing fighting games, and who also spent a lot of my childhood gaming time Alone, I feel this. Standout games like Street Fighter Alpha 3 with World Tour mode, Soul Caliber with it's campaign, Tekken with the wacky stories and modes etc. Kept me in the genre. That being said, I feel like a lot of the problems you've pointed out are actually fairly recent. Fighting games have always been about taking the arcade to the couch. All of the other stuff was extra. Beat em up modes weren't standardized, but that was a different genre of game. Lol same thing with many of the other issues. When I play a fighting game, I'm ok just playing a fighting game. Lol That being said, I was a competitive smash player for a while and my favorite smash game overall is Brawl. I hated that game competitively, but Subspace emissary made it so fun for someone who spent most of their time alone that I didn't care about tripping and would just play the game for the single player modes (that also had co-op! Lol) But I really resonate with issues like Online sucking. Those things are "permission to play" elements for any video game. If the point is to fight people, and you can't even do that online... we're missing something lol I'm torn a little on hidden tech and mechanics. Many fighting games developed through the community discovering things that later were implemented into the genre. Discovering exploits of the game's systems and developing new techniques is a part of fighting games that have been a part of their appeal since SF2. Fighting games aren't easy to get good at, but that makes BEING good at them an actual accomplishment. I don't necessarily think we should take that away. I think some of the mechanics you mentioned are good compromises, but I also see a lot of fighting games just dumbing down the play in order to make the game appeal to a more broad audience. That causes it's own host of issues as it's really difficult to please a casual and a try-hard at the same time. Lol All in all, great video content! Thanks for sharing this with us!
I have an idea what would be a fun game mode. Match starts with one player having a timer bomb on them, and whenever they hit the other player the bomb attaches to the player that got hit. The goal is to get the bomb to explode on your oponent, and not you. I imagine it either with no health bars, or some kind of long knockdown when you run out of health, after which your health resets.
Funnily enough I literally showed an example of that in this video! One of the levels in Soulcalibur 2's weapon master mode has that exact same concept (Its at around 7:20 i think?). I do think that should've been an actual gamemode in the game now that you've said about it, cuz that could teach people about playing defensive and the best strats to avoid getting hit.
super solid video! tho i really dont see the lack of content point, each char is like a puzzle to figure out in fighthing games and takes hours on top of hours of knowing exactly how to use them and then how to apply them in matches. its awesome to me tbh, love learning them and becoming better and better in each match trying dif play styles. these games, tekken, sf5, smash, etc. they all just give me a lot of more fun and let me learn each match atleast more than getting insta killed in mw2 for the 50th time and just saying "guess i shouldnt have went over that corner".
Honestly? I would love a fighting game with a well-fleshed out campaign without a bunch of fluff. A place where a player can choose to play something else after being satisfied by the campaign, or decide to tackle a new challenge in multiplayer. Silly modes are fun, but a solid campaign that naturally teaches the player while being fun is my holy grail of a skill-based game. Let's take Ultrakill as an example of a great skill-based single player campaign. The game is really good at explaining its mechanics and expanding upon them as the game progresses. You start with one gun with one alt fire, and some evasive moves (dash, slide, parry, and the basic jump). The encounters are designed to teach you how to engage with the core mechanics, and what's even better is that you can do so at your own pace. You don't have to improve at every single evasion technique to progress, because it doesn't matter how you evade basic enemy attacks as long as hitbox no touchy hurtbox. Some evasive moves are *better* in certain situations, but often times there's more than one way out of getting hit. The game encourages getting better at these different techniques more than punishing for not knowing specific ones. Of course, there are bosses where you're tested and you need to be skilled enough to beat them. But also, the game encourages you to take risks with its health system. As the tagline says, MANKIND IS DEAD, BLOOD IS FUEL, HELL IS FULL. The only way to heal (apart from extremely rare pickups) is to do damage at close range and get bled on, or parrying. To survive, you need to learn to be aggressive, and getting aggressive gives you more opportunities to get attacked and learn how to evade. No QT- I mean, glory kills here. Get in close and eviscerate. Lastly, there's the ripped-from-DMC style meter that rewards chaining moves together, encouraging the player to move with purpose; don't just think about your next move, what are you going to do after that? Can you keep that score multiplier up? Parry to headshot to explosive ki- wait, what's a "disrespect?" What UK does over DMC is that each special thing you can do to increase your style is explicitly named. You are encouraged (I keep using that word and that's important) to experiment with your ever increasing roster of weapons and enemies and discover new weird shit you can do. The revolver variant that lets you throw coins and shoot them in the air to do trick reflect shots for bonus damage? What happens if you throw two coins? What happens if I shoot the coin with the other hitscan weapon, the electric railg- HOLY SHIT YOU CAN SHOOT THE COIN WITH THE RAILGUN AND GET A HUGE DAMAGE BOOST. And it doesn't stop there. There's so many ways that mechanics synergize that you stumble upon even more weird shit you can do. Did you try to parry right after firing your shotgun? Guess fucking what, you punched your own shotgun projectile, making it go faster and explode on impact. One of the shotgun's alt-fire launches a grenade, and if you shoot it with the explosive railgun it explodes with more force and damage than just adding the two together. You can also parry your own coins, which hitscans them into the closest enemy, at which point they bounce off and you can shoot them to combo even further. Did you riddle an enemy with nails and then shoot them with the electric railgun? Damage boost because the nails are conductive. There are so many paths you can take from weapon to weapon, each with tactical benefits. And you can learn them all just by accident because the game pushes you into accidents. So, you've finally completed the main campaign (or what exists so far because early access), crushed Gabriel beneath your metal heel, but there's secret bosses. But if you want to fight them, you need to git gud. THIS is where the game demands the best of you. Go back to the stages again, this time with your expanded skillset and moveset. Beat every stage in the first act with 100% kills, S rank time, and no mid-stage checkpoint restarts, and you'll get to face it. The game is no longer demanding your best, it demands better. And then it demands better again. But okay, maybe the game is too hard and you're not having fun. There's a robust system of difficulty modes, minor assists, and major assists. Difficulty modes and and minor assists (like colorblind options, enemy outlines, a few other things like that) do not affect stage rankings, but major assists (like turning down the game speed) do. But even if you play on the easiest difficulty with the game speed turned down to a crawl, you can still beat the campaign, because it's a goddamn single player game, who cares if you aren't playing "correctly" as long as you're having fun. The amount of "I'm bored/frustrated/not having fun anymore" off-ramps are slim to none, but the amount of on-ramps to challenging yourself to get better is huge. No matter your starting skill level, you can start the game there and get better and better until your wrists hurt. I want that out of a fighting game. I want to want to git gud, not have to git gud. Give me the tools to enter the game at my existing skill level and then improve from there, until I hit a baseline understanding of the mechanics. Then, if I want to get better and look at frame data and the meta and whatnot, I can look at these things with an instinctual understanding.
One mode i REALLY LOVED in Fighting games Are the survival modes where you gain attributes/buffs (and sometimes debuffs) Like BlazBlue’s Abyss mode or Persona’s survival mode (or whatever it was called) Would be cool to add stupid things to it Like bigger head, hands,... Aesthetic changes Or even stupid/funny gameplay mechanics I miss those things Made the game less competitive and just more casually enjoyable
Great video dude! Seeing this is your first video, you killed it in terms of quality. I agree that this generation is becoming better for new people to get into. I got into fighting games about 2 or so years ago about when Strive was getting closer to launch. I ended up accidently stumbling upon a YT upload of Big Blast Sonic from Xrd, became intrigued from the series after seeing Strive was set for release later that year, and bit the bullet I had been holding onto for years with my child-self and very early teenage years of me not being good enough to understand them and not being able to do quarter circles, and bought GGXX on Switch. Thanks to some good YT videos, I actually quite quickly learned the mechanics and got somewhat decent. Then I couldn't stop and got way more fighting games after that. I hope that with the upcoming wave of awesome fighters like SF6, that more casual players will hop into traditional fighters and join the wider fgc
I'm deffo a fighting game enjoyer, but I really struggle to play them for long period of time mainly due to the points listed here, especially the one about which moves are safe or are not safe on block. That's just the tip of the iceberg! You have to watch vids about characters, use docs etc like you said.. it's a bit mad. You have worded it so perfectly and it's so strange how this sort of information hasn't been implemented considering the fact that moves have these properties. Okay great we know the frames, but why can't a move say "unsafe on block" or however best it could be displayed or detailed to the player. Someone like me, I'd probs massively benefit from having a friend or know someone who's huge in FGs but I don't so I find it all very overwhelming and then it's like how else do you learn, reading text dumps or consuming hours of vids trying to just scratch the surface.
This really does come down to the classic "what can Fighting games do to gain massive popularity?"..."work" AAA fighters really have been "if it worked for SF4 then that's all we need" for quite some time and i'm really happy to finally see the genre break away from that. I love your point on visual indicators for frame data which would help fighters ALOT of new people, show don't tell y'know. This is absolutely fantastic for a first video, the 3D & 2D art and editing is solid. It also helps your avatar looks really cool for a snowman lol.
getting to your pushback argument: well tbh when a move is safe and he's right in my face thats a free chance for me to pressure or mix, so taking that away also takes away somemindgames playing imo. the best thing to me tbh is to make obvious what moves you can punish with some kind of stagger animation on block like when you block a hellsweep or something like that
I grew up with fighting-games in the arcades and eventually on console, where I had a fair number of high-school and college buddies who inspired me to get better and remain competitive. Those were some of the best years of my life. But as we all got older, moved farther away, and had to rely on online multiplayer for our matches, everyone I knew began to focus on adulting and couldn't spare the immense time investment required to get good. And one by one, we all dropped off. I also can't stand lag, nor deal with opponents I can't see eye to eye, so online play with strangers was a no go for me. This might be another limiting factor for fighting games.
Fighting games are hard because to stick with them you need the right mindset, especially the more skilled you become. If you're an online warrior, at a certain point you can't just turn on a FG and mash, you actually gotta use your brain, against a singular opponent, that is actively trying to read you. With no one to blame but yourself when you lose. It's hardly a casual experience at that stage and is stressful and cumbersome for most; thats why they're hard and people abandon them for other team based multi-player games. It takes much less time and effort to understand the concept of "shoot and don't get shot", and do it relatively well, than it does to pick a character you like, learn the moves, learn your opponents moves (and other match ups), then learn when and how to apply strategies to win. At their core, FGs just take more effort to learn and play which adds to them being hard. I think it's disingenuous to say they aren't, especially when videos like these ironically highlight every single reason why FGs are hard in the first place.
You make many great points and I agree that fighting games should become more than just 1 v 1 fights online but I feel like recently fighting games have been trying to correct this such as the main game for DNF Duel having a replayable story mode, survival mode, and challenges in the tutorial, Kof XV having story mode with multiple endings for different characters, Soul Calibur 6 having a main story, character side stories, and Libra of Soul that let's your CAC go on a journey with different characters, and Guilty Gear Xrd had a mutiple modes while also having mini games after completing the detailed tutorial mode. I would like for fighting game developers to expand on the content they have instead of making the game simpler which is disappointed me with the change from Xrd to Strive and again I agree that Fighting games need to grow but it seems in recent years developers are making more of an effort to appeal to casuals and I think Street Fighter 6 will make an impact on the genre.
Very solid points made here, fighting games have had these problems for far too long,seemingly being tied to streetfighter2 in some shape or form for all these years. Although as you touched on, the comming generation might change that, with Arcsys putting rollback in all their games , others like Snk/Tekken following suit and Street fighter 6 is headed by 2 streetfighter fans who are pumping the game with modes(off&on-line) Future is looking bright for vs fighters, gread video Ardrid
I think honestly no matter how many parts a game may get right or wrong, new players are always going to be hard to get in for one huge reason. Getting players in the door, that's why we see games like dragon ball z and multi versus explode on release, they are getting players in the door with name recognition. That is why all my hope is in Project L to get people in the door to this new genre to them, once they want to move on or try something new they will stay in and be apart of the fgc. I mean just ask the strive players how many of the came from dragon ballz, and how many of them branched out
Gotta say, for a first video this is really good and quite informational for people who don't know about fighting games and is also a great encouragement for people who know about em. PS: Just wish you could put the music in the description, but I do understand it's a hassle.
Half of the music in this video is from the Virtua Fighter 3tb OST, some others are "Unwavering Resolve" , "Hubris (piano version)" and "Confrontation" from SoulCalibur 2, then theres "Formless Like Water" from TEKKEN 5. I think thats all of them? I'm going off memory I might put a little thing in the corner of the screen when a new song comes up in my next video now that you've mentioned this, makes it easier. EDIT: "Evil Reborn" and "Guided By Wind" from SC2 are also in the video, I just remembered.
@@Ardrid_ Damn, the only ones I didn't recognize are Virtua fighter but loved your use of the Tekken OST. Thank you for replying. Happy growing and keep up the good fight, brother!
Probably one of the best ways to explain bad game design is to remind fighting game players is that its a game. To them the value is in learning, but my question after this video (instead of nodding along awkwardly) is, "how would explaining basic mechanics in an intuitive and fun way ruin your fun?"
As a fighting game player I wouldn’t mind that, but that is not the problem. The problem is being intuitive playing against someone else. Just like any competitive(pvp,moba,team,etc) game the winner is usually going to have the most fun rather than the loser. I’m not saying you’re not gonna have fun even if you lose, but if you ain’t willing to learn certain things on your own while taking some serious L’s I don’t think competitive games are for you no matter how fun you make basic mechanics. Also I don’t think reminding fighting game players who play these games with a passion that it’s just a game is not a good way to explain bad game design. If anything it would piss them off or they won’t listen. I think a better way would be to keep the old stuff while bringing in new designs that newcomers would enjoy. Keeping the game fresh while not messing up the foundation. Just my thoughts.
All of my friends are starting to get into guilty gear strive with their only fighting game being smash ultimate. This video perfectly describes my feelings towards fighting games as I am really into them but the skill ceiling feels way too high when it shouldn’t
Guilty gears skill floor is really low. It's way easier than even ultimate. In ultimate, every interactions frame data is different depending on minute spacing details. Add in the 7 frame lag (way more for online) and you're left with a great party game but a terribly inconsistent game for competitive play. Compared to gg, ult just has way less casual players which is why it feels harder. Learn one punish combo you can spam in neutral. Learn one wallbreaker combo. That's all u need.
Really hope the new generation will make it possible for me to get into fighting games. Have been admiring them from afar for a while now. But excel sheets of moves and no intutitive entry into the games just puts me off time and time again. I play games to enjoy myself, not to grind out moves in exhausting and unintuitive ways, just so I can be able to have a decent match where I know what I'm doing. So fingers crossed for the next gen fighting games :)
I disagree with most of this video. 1.) You said that online play has been perfected mostly outside of fighting games. That's not true at all. You bring up Ultimate, but that's Nintendo as a whole. Even Super Mario Makers online play is worst than any fighting game I've played, and that's just a platformer. BHVR's Dead By Daylight has awful online capabilities. Even Shadowverse, a TCG has iffy netcode. You mention FPSs like they're the pinnacle of online play, but Apex, Battlefield, PUBG, and COD have all had and have connectivity issues. Online play is something that no one has perfected, and most likely wont be for a long time. Using that to the detriment of fighting games, while making it seem like every other genre is at some sci-fi tech level of online play is disingenuous. 2.) Being expected to just "know" things is weird. Fighting games are a series of real-time trial and error. You don't have to know frame data to find out if a button is safe. You can and will learn if it's safe by using the button in different scenarios and finding out if your opponent can punish you or not. That's the core of the gameplay. The most base level, that doesn't even factor in the possibility that a button can be safe in one matchup, and not safe in another. Additionally, you can tell players point blank "this button isn't safe", but that's not exactly useful information in a game like BBCF where every move can be RC'd and negate the frame data and all of preconceived safety or risk of a button. You can't expect to be handheld throughout the learning process. You're expected to fail, and learn from experience because frame data and visual markers only go so far. 2a.) You bring up Strives counter hit aesthetic, and praise it for being so; yet fighting games almost always denote to the player when there's a counter hit. BBCF has a visual marker on the screen, and an auditory cue as well. SAMSHO, SF, SC, AH, UN, and KoF all do that as well. 3.) The lack of content is truly a null point. You don't buy a fighting game to not play a fighting game. That's like complaining than FPS games don't have non-FPS content. Would you criticize Apex for not having a card game like Gwent built in? Not to mention a lot of fighting games have tried adding additional content already, and the truth is it doesn't hold casual attention. Smash's Subspace Emissary, BBCF's Abyss Mode, SC's variety of RPG-like modes, the volleyball, bowling and other nonsense modes you've listed prove it. They've all be tried before, but the fact is that the development time spent on that content doesn't translate to player retention; because you don't play a fighting game to not play a fighting game. Fighting games have a small subset of players not because the games are bad, the online is bad, the content is lacking, or the information is too vague. It's because fighting games *are* hard. When something is competitive, and 1v1; no amount of hand-holding will lessen the gap between players. That's why mobas and other competitive genres can succeed where fighting games can't. You have variables that can determine the outcome of the game outside of yourself. You can get carried by your team in a moba or fps. RNG can cause you to win or lose in TCGs. Fighting games don't have that luxury by design. And no amount of visual indicators, side modes, rollback, frame data or any other factor will allow someone who doesn't play the game often to beat someone who does. And that's exactly how it should be. If a player finds enjoyment out of the challenge of git gud, then they'll enjoy the genre. If a player doesn't, then it's not for them and wont ever be. And there's nothing wrong with that.
0:38 "... but despite this, on... line multiplayer..." The video had to buffer for a split second, and I thought it was a joke that you made. I replayed it just to make sure, and get the correct time, but then it didn't happen again. If I had been drinking something I probably would have spit it out despite my best efforts. I laughed so hard I coughed.
Amazing video. My only gripes are that I feel Guilty Gear is still lacking in a few of the features stated, and I don’t think it’s fair to say Tekken 8 will have everything necessary just based on SF6 (at least from launch). Let’s wait and see before we start praising it
This is an excellent first video. I think you are discounting technique and execution, but all of those issues are real. Except the counter hit thing. I can't think of a game that doesn't let you know when you've counter hit your opponent, at least not for a decade. There's an emphasis on cleaner GUI and there's a trade-off between that and the in your face visuals of Guilty Gear Strive. I personally am not a fan, but that's a preference.
This is a good video, however there also should be a reminder that every innovation people have wanted for years has been in indie fighting games. For example, although there's no online in it, Duels of Fortune and Schwarzerblitz has a ton of missions for a single player content and a toggle for stage hazards The visual+/- on block has been in Fantasy Strike and Merfight Cross play in Mighty Fight Federation and Power rangers And innovative and unique fighting games like mega knockdown, beasts of mystery, Yomi Hustle, and moonatics So I'm not too big a fan of the whole "a new type of fighting game is finally here" when it's been around for a long time
That is very true; Games like Skullgirls, Fantasy Strike, Power Rangers BFTG, Rivals of Aether and others have done a lot for the genre, and have innovated in many ways that shouldn't be left unpraised. However, I feel like the main difference between these games and a game like Street Fighter is reach; A game like Skullgirls simply isn't going to reach as many people as a new Street Fighter, Tekken or any fighting game that is or is based on an IP that has been established for decades. When Them's Fighting Herds has a Singleplayer RPG mode where the battles are standard fighting game battles (atleast I think thats what it has?), it does mean a lot. When Street Fighter 6 does it, though, many more people are going to notice both inside and outside of the FGC simply because Street Fighter is a much more established name that everyone sees as the standard for where the Fighting Game Genre is in terms of standing (it did pretty much invent the genre, after all.) Indies can definitely set trends and lead by example (PUBG and Minecraft before they were bought by big corporations shows this very clearly), but 90% of the time its the big players that people look to as the standard for the genre, so I think its especially potent now that the biggest names in the fighting game genre are adopting these kind of philosophies, rather than indie fighters that don't have as much capital to get their name in front of people as say, Capcom or Bandai Namco. Still you raise a very good point though, and thanks for watching my video :)
You don't really those in order to do well in fighting games. Do they help...yes. However those things won't do you any good if your foundation is fucked up.
@@bellzo5 that wasn't what I referring to when I said foundation. By that I mean blocking, the use of throws, sweeps and basic anti airs with the occasional pokes. 2 You're wrong...you can win with basic moves in other fighting games besides MK. I know that because I've done so on several occasions whether it be couple of Street Fighter games or Fighting EX Layer which is very easy to do. Samurai Shodown is another game where its easy to do. Not only have I done it but my cousins have done it as well as someone that I know from Twitch has done so in a local tournament for a fighting game that he never played before.
@@Drebin1989 you most likely play fighting games. I don't anymore because of I cant play the effectively. Like bftg is the last one ive done. It was fun but unless your doing combos and not playing so basic you won't survive online or against the cpu
@@bellzo5 i play fighting games but that ain't the only games I played. How are you gonna sit there and say that when I JUST told you that me, my cousins and some other people. You absolutely can survive off of basic moves against the cpu. Did not take the time to exploit them mfs when you did play fighting games? You can also survive online using basic moves. You be surprised at the amount of people struggle against players that know how to use those basic moves well. You can even play mind games with that shit. They also come in super handy once you have your opponent figured out. Hell my playstyle utilizing mostly basic moves and very small combos using mostly basic moves.
explaining unintuive game mechanics at hands of the Tekken 8 trailer with Kazuya's F->F->1 and Jin gettin pushed back so hard at the 11:00 min mark and you immediately being like *"yeah, I ain't gon punish that cuz my opponent is at frame advantage here"* is really amazing and showcases exactly what you mean with saying games should be more prone to actually explain to their players some core certain type of mechanics and when to use 'em or to at least give 'em an idea rather than just leaving it completely to them to figure everything out and combo and come in with the insensitive initially of wanting to dive deep into and understand everything ingame, said game has to offer! :) ⚡
Dude i appreciate the effort put into making a video like this. But just the opening statement is too much. Fighting games ARE harder than either shooters or MOBA's under most resonable definitions of what "hard" is. The only point towards the argument that fighting games are not the hardest genre is that theoretically, the skill ceiling of Shooters and Moba's have an infinitely high skill ceiling, just as fighters have (We CAN go into theoretical edge cases here, like the proposed equilibrium draw some have theorized about for e.x melee fox) But there's not much point. That is because for the practical reasons of actually playing these games the sheer amount of knowledge required, timing demands as well as mental strain and pressure will make it so that for all intents and purposes, fighting games are the most demanding genre of competitive video games. Period.
I respectfully disagree. I don't think fighting games are harder at all compared to an FPS game. People tend to make the point that aiming is easier than doing a quarter circle motion so therefore shooters are easier, but there are countless videos online of "My Grandad played Counter Strike for the first time" where they literally don't understand the concept of aiming and moving at the same time; it may be a simpler mechanic, but the amount of precision required to even be competent at it is honestly insane. The main difference between fighters and shooters is that shooters have had tons of modes and great online both in terms of netcode and user experience since Quake. If you have more ways to play the game, the more familiar you're going to get with the mechanics, so the simple act of aiming in an FPS has become more of a standard way of moving that everyone has experience in, and that aiming style has been used in tons of other genres that aren't really shooters. In Fighters, you are asked to learn an arbitrary motion input that aren't used in any other game genre to do certain moves, so its understandable when people aren't as experienced with them as aiming. And shooters and MOBAS require a huge amount of knowledge, including map layouts, team comps, correct positioning, bullet spread of weapons, the abilities of all the characters (League has over 100 of them with a lot of them having abilities that need entire paragraphs to explain how they work.) Just like fighting games, one wrong split second decision can determine the outcome of the match so I don't particularly see how they are so much harder than any other genre. Games like Elden Ring and God of War Ragnarok were some of the biggest titles this year and its remarkable how many systems and concepts it takes directly from fighters (some people even joke that the Souls series is just a singeplayer fighting game). If people can en masse learn these two games, then I think traditional fighting games aren't that far outside of their reach.
@@Ardrid_ I think a big contributor to that feeling that fps are easier than fighting games is that they tend to be team fights, so you can win even if you're absolutely terrible at it. If I have to compare the two genres you can say FPS are effectively a bunch of "shorter rounds and matches" and it's easier to get back into another "match". Also knowing the attitude of some gamers it wouldnt surprise me that not having someone else to blame for your loss may be a factor :p
On the future of fighting games: I'm so excited for project L. Full priced AAA games are crazy expensive where I live so having a F2P fighting game based on a popular franchise means finally more people will be willing to give fighting games a shot. I'm not saying that all fighting games should be free to play but having a popular one as an option could be great for the genre.
The reason I find them hard is more a me problem but it’s the pressure. I try my best to learn, I train in practice, I watch tutorials but I can’t execute it. I’m just scared of embarrassing myself. I want to be able to play KI or guilty gear but it seems absolutely terrifying and overwhelming for someone who doesn’t play a lot of fighting games.
Only those who experience the genre can make that claim. Being a world class athletic isn't hard either. Until you realize you can't even hold a candle to them in a race.
You're never gonna get rid of unintuitive mechanics if you keep designing around frame data and hitboxes. How is someone supposed to know that hitting the air around a character is as good as hitting the character themselves? How is someone supposed to know the difference between 12f move or an 11f move? And how is someone supposed to know if something is +1 or +2? Why can this characters jab punish this move mine can't? Without simplifying frame data every one still has to look at spreadsheets.
How is someone supposed to know the difference between all of those? Trial and error. If you hit a button, and your opponent punishes you; you don't need to know the frame data. You just learned the button is unsafe in that situation. Don't repeat your mistake and you'll improve. That's also this crazy concept known as "playing the game". How is someone supposed to know the maps in an FPS? How is someone supposed to know how much bullet drop a particular gun has in an FPS? How is someone supposed to know when they have all-in potential in a moba? How is someone supposed to know lane matchups in a moba? How is someone supposed to know item locations in a Metroidvania? How is someone supposed to know boss mechanics in a Souls-Like? How is someone supposed to know ghost patterns in Pac-Man? How is someone supposed to know meta decks in TCGs? How is someone supposed to know which jump pattern are coming next in a rhythm map? How is someone supposed to know what spray patterns are going to happen in a bullet hell? How is someone supposed to know how to fit in rotations in MMOs? How is someone supposed to know which items drop from which enemies in ARPGs.
One of my favorite fighting games was Soul Calibur 3, it had so much single player content, A main story mode that worked like a "Choose your own Adventure" book, A secondary story mode for your custom character that played like a strategy RPG, your custom characters would level up and learn new fighting styles, and a bunch of other stuff. When I played Soul Claibur 4 and saw that they removed pretty much ALL of the single player content that I loved in SC3, I stopped playing Soul Calibur games. I'm glad to hear that some of the newer fighting games are adding more single player stuff!
Probably gonna get a bunch of shit for this, as I generally do, but fighting game AI needs to be fixed. I know it's easy to beat the AI, but it isn't fun doing it, having to cheese them over and over with the same dumb garbage because it's the only thing that works.
Thank God you mentioned this, I'm tired of SNK nostal fans asking for the same SNK Boss Syndrome bullshit instead of asking for a functional IA that doesn't rely on reading your inputs.
If fighting games had an AI opponent that doesn't rely on reading your inputs, nobody wouldn't learn anything while playing them. Believe me, I wouldn't enjoy a fighting game if the AI opponent was trash in the intelligence department. So, yes, please input read me AI, I wouldn't want to get away with everything in a match against you. Let's treat it like it's chess, at the end of the day. 😆
@@shinsmoke nobody learn anything fighting with that kind of IA, the only thing that teaches you it's to cheese that thing, the input reading reliance just leads you to unreal scenarios where the machines reacts to everything, way faster than a human could, It doesn't really teach you to deal with pressure because it's too busy waiting you to do something, at the end of the day you got a lot of useless skills that just works with that kind of IA's and maybe with clueless players
@@sebastiandelvillarmontoya1447 It can teach you how to play smart against other players in general. Like for example, it'll teach you how to anti-air your opponent by doing it to you. And if you're dumb enough to fall for it over and over again, then that's your fault for not learning from your mistake. Another example, it can teach you how to counter by doing it to you over and over again. Of course, as a player, you cannot react as fast an AI opponent, but you can still react to various attacks once you adapt to it, at the end of the day.
@@shinsmoke You can't really use counters against an IA because it's reading your inputs, and again most of the thing you learn are useless against real opponents, the anti-air thing it's a rare scenario since most of that AI's just sit on their asses untill you move, again they teach to cheese them, not to play smart against real players.
I will always be a massive fighting game guy. I first got into it when I found this game called 'pocket fighter nova', which was a chibi version of street fighter which some dark stalker characters in them. I didn't even know what street fighter was then. I grinded the hell out of the game, only to further reach out to other games. Then I found out the original inspiration behind the game. I was able to find a free street fighter 2 on browser that would only allow arcade mode. Then I got into Tekken and actually got invested in it and looked up videos to learn the game in depth. I'm not a good gamer, but I love this genre. I really want it to succeed and become more mainstream. The game needs: - more single player content to make the learning process a fun one not a hard one - better netcode - make finding matches easier and quicker
The point on making frame data visually clear is an interesting one, and I'm glad to see devs have been tackling it. Guilty Gear Strive also made something similar with how they reworked their frame data and Instant Block to use spacing as a visual indicator, so it would not surprise me if Tekken did the same. Guard Crush-type animations are also interesting ways of showing something is plus (in theory, if only they could keep that consistent). SF6 also got rid of most plus-on-block normals, and now the pressure also seems to be built around spacing instead. Seems to be the way forward in the near future, although I'd prefer something simpler that didn't immediately affect gameplay itself (like Fantasy Strike using hitspark/blockspark color to show if something is very plus, slightly plus, slightly negative or very negative/punishable).
@@BecomingYourIdeal Not literally (although there is a Tekken mod where the numbers appear instead of the hit/block sparks, and it's useful for learning). I was thinking in terms of character animation during blockstun (think GGST when the characters reel back from guardbreak moves) or VFX (like the different-colored hitsparks from Fantasy Strike).
The issue with them being hard is more because they're hard for no good reason. No other genre out there uses QCMs, and it's very hard to parse when you should be using any given type of attack even at the most basic level of pressing just one button. (Smash is a good comparison, it's absurdly easy to explain where every normal fits in on a general level and even specials that work similarly usually have the same input on a cast-wide level) But yeah that's not the biggest factor, and personally, I believe this genre will forever be doomed by a lack of content and features until we get more games that lean into a second genre like SF6 is gonna do with open world or really invest on big storylines like the recent MKs. (that's leaving aside stuff like DBZ fighters which lean into big non-game franchises) We need stuff to do to justify all the effort it takes to play the games with minimal competence
quarter circle motions are the EASIEST inputs ever, there's even buffers now to help you do moves so you dont have to be as clean. That honestly sounds like a big skill issue on your part rather than the game being hard for the sake of it. If you think a simple quarter circle is hard you should see some of SNK's inputs that are ACTUALLY dumb to do
@@Gensolink My B, I was dumping every fancy special move input under the same term. I can actually do the easy ones just fine, not super consistently because I don`t practice, which is a red flag in of itself: what genre even demands practice for basic inputs? Even the simpler inputs are nonsensical and unintuitive. This is most obvious when you look at the FG characters in smash. How does Ryu does the Shoryuken? Special + Up. It's a special move that goes up, of course that's how you do it. Why would I want to move forward, down, and forward-down for a move that goes straight-up? Nonsense. You could never intuit the command just by looking or by applying basic logic without prior knowledge of this very specific genre. Either way this is all NOT the main problem, even if everything on the controls side was smoothed out, properly explained, and fighters found a way to organically teach all of it... you still have the content issue
Uhh yeah they do. The Bayonetta games have plenty of motion inputs. Some of the sports games use QCMs. The Castlevania games have them. Even some of the Megaman games (most notably the Megaman Zero games and Megaman X Command Mission have them). Even some of the beat em ups like Final Fight 3 and Streets of Rage 3 had them.
@@Drebin1989 I said games, not genre. And nice try. A few games here and there don't change much, and you also generalize a few. Castlevania for example, there's several of them that don't have anything besides normal inputs, and even the ones that do you can play the game pretty normally without them because they're built around your basic attack and subweapons.
@@guedesbrawl it's more than just a few games here and there. A lot more. I just only named a few. Those motion input moves are also usually tied to your best and/or strongest moves and in some cases like the Bayonetta, they be in your action sequences at times. Those basic moves and subweapons tend to not serve you very well the further you get in the game.
There’s no winning in the genre when it comes to point number 2. The vocal end of the fgc always complains about any Avenue of accessibility that’s not anchored to grinding.
Thanks for all the comments and likes guys, really appreciate it :)
Good vid tho
@ 7:02 No, that's not a fact. It's not true for me, for example. You also left out a ton of modes that exist in single player but it's dependent on the game. One common mode you left out though is Survival.. @ 8:14 No, it really didn't. If you were playing them actively, there were always new games and they all brought something a little different to the table, the truth is Fighting Games aren't for everyone. It takes real effort to level up because you do it via *experience* not *experience points.* The exploration doesn't lie in roaming around taking out countless jobber enemies so that you can eventually find something that will add 2% to your kick their ass now button. Instead it lies in finding out all the situational abilities and combinations of abilities your character is capable of. Fighting Games focus 100% on the combat (i'm not including 3-d games here) and it's the deepest that can be found. Depending on the game, the amount of options you have are comparatively *limitless.* So, to a player who sees value in that, it's worth the price of any other game and we'll play it more and for far longer than most will play those other games. Value is subjective anyway. Performance is not. If enough people see value, there will be market. They've never stopped making Fighting Games since Street Fighter II started it all going. :3 @ 9:12 Also wrong. Fighting Games have always *been* obscure. At least far more so than other genres. We're used to it. Do you have ANY clue how many new Fighting Games are released just every month??!! Availability can even outstrip demand, but that's a different issue. There is no lack of companies perfectly willing to spend LOTS to make a popular Fighting Game! :D
@@mikejonesnoreally That is true, Survival does exist, but it doesn't offer the same quality of content is say Weapon Master mode in SC. Weapon Master forced you to interact with certain elements of the game in order to progress (eg. some levels can only be beaten by killing the enemy with a wall combo), and thats generally what I mean: Modes that have the express purpose of teaching the player the games mechanics, and although Survival mode is a great extra it serves pretty much the same purpose as Arcade mode where you're fighting AI controlled opponents under the same conditons as regular VS matches.
You make a point though that Survival should've been mentioned in some aspect, but it doesn't neccesarily disprove my point.
@@Ardrid_ i'll just take your first sentence, because to me Survival mode *does* offer *more* "quality of content" than the Weapon Master mode (which i have played) but that's subjective. The fact that you think you're "fighting AI controlled opponents under the *same* conditions" demonstrates that you really don't value Survival Mode as much. If you did you would know that there is one really important difference in that you are doing it all with one life bar. There can be more choices and more meaningful choices for me in a game of Street Fighter V Survival, than in any game of SC that i've played. i just disagree with your basic premise that Fighting Games aren't good as they are. Sure new things will get tried and be great, that's the beauty of the focus of Fighting Games, but that's *always* been true and has gotten us to where we are now. i feel you misrepresent the amount of actual single player stuff in Fighting Games but that can be arguable since it *really* varies from game to min-game to game. :3
No matter what gimmicks a fighting game will have, it will remain obscure, like it was. The problem with people who analyze "Why Fighting Games are not Popular, etch." is that they DON'T EVER mention the REAL ISSUES of getting into a fighting games. I'll say it bluntly - Fighting Games are for people who actually have skills, dexterity and the will much higher than that of any games, much higher than any FPS or MOBA. Another greatest drawback of getting into a fighting game is the fact that is a 1v1 with another person. You can argue that games like Starcraft or Warcraft, both which are strategy games has 1v1, but like the fighting game genre, they have been replaced by MOBA. But, even those strategy game I have mentioned have coop not like fighting games.
Playing 1v1 and getting stomp over and over again is not fun for most people. An argument can be said that all games where other people are involved, you can also be stomped, but, when it comes to fighting games, it's almost unrecoverable. A person can definitely feel loosing in a fighting game and majority of people don't like a one sided battle, which Fighting Games are a master of.
Hence why I say, fighting games are high skill level. Unless something bizarre happen, a high level player in a fighting game will beat a regular guy 100 out of 100, same reason why games like SC and WoW strategy games that does 1v1 have become obscure as MOBA games took over. While in other games like a MOBA and FPS, even it it just 1 out of a hundred, one can have the miracle of beating someone. And that 1% is what drives people to comeback to play.
Now, the most important reason of all is this: MOBA's and Majority of the popular games of FPS are Free-to-Play.
Sure, they have skins you can buy, but aside from that, they are FREE. Meaning ANYONE can access them. Fighting games? Nope. The best fighting games are paid. Why would you pay for something that you know that you will be curved stomped anyway. You can argue that in MOBA's and FPS you can still be curved stomped but, these games are group games so there's a higher chance you can still win even if carried and it's much easier to learn. Even if you fail, you will still feel like you contributed in a game vs in a fighting game that you will feel the lose.
Fighting Game will never be as popular as other genres. That's a hard fact to swallow, and I've accepted that fact a long time ago, as much as I love fighting games. The GAP between a skilled player vs a casual who's just getting into the genre is so wide and hard to close that it will deter the later to pursue. Combine it with the fact that there is a pay wall, and I'm not even including DLC's here yet, vs todays modern popular games such as MOBA's and FPS are F2P, Fighting Games is slowly killing itself.
If Fighting Games really want to at least see a bit of a change, I would suggest they start making it F2P. If they still continue on the route their doing, then there will be no change at all.
The £60 price tag for fighting games is odd as well. As the nature of fighting games it could either be overpriced if you bounce off the game after a few rounds and never play it again. Or it could be the best £60 you can spend in the industry as you can feasibly play 1000s of hours if you like the game and can have fun playing online or at home locally with friends.
Be like me... Get the Rom 😏😏
That's any game tbh
Buy the game at full price
Realise a character you want to play as is behind a DLC pack
The character in question was in the franchise from way back
I think the beat 'em up campaign is actually a really good idea. You can use enemy types that resist certain moves to introduce concepts one at a time, then test them with "bosses" that are just bots with certain behaviors disabled until you reach the end and must defeat your first actual bot that doesn't hold back
Smash did that with the Subspace Emissary and it was Godawful bordering on unplayable.
@@alondite215 stuff like final fight and turtles in time on super nintendo were awesome, A fully fleshed out mode like that would be fun
@@biggusdickus2166 They're fun, but they are also designed fundamentally as different games. They appear similar on the surface, but what goes into actually playing the games is very different.
Tekken tag tournament 2 has something similar, but it wasn't enough.
@@alondite215 The thing is that it can work.
*Smash just did it awfully.*
1. Reward using combos and differing play styles. (Don't use simple one-move enemies with health bars that can't be comboed.)
2. ...
Honestly that's it. Smash _almost_ redeemed themselves with World of Light, but made it more of a _Creature Collector_ that rewarded strong attacks due to the spirit's differing stats rather than a _Fighting Game_ that rewarded combos.
any of y'all ever noticed how we've had for decades RPG games struggling to come up with interesting combat mechanics and fighting games struggling to come up with good solo play and expository content? Funny thing huh
Rpg's have came up with interesting mechanics even in the turn based versions with many things that shake up how the combat flows or is fought (bravely default, and persona/SMT for example) the main issue with these is many either only really work due to changes made to the original formula that they may and or may not want to make or are tied to that game for one reason or another and most notebly it takes alot more time to actually innovate something then to just slap the same thing you've done for years on there.
I love how well this genre gatekeeps itself.
It really does. It's almost like they don't want to make money XD
no one gate keeps, we just accept the simple fact that if you want to be good at something you HAVE to put the work in. :)
@@j2sketchy the thing is, some people just wanna load up a fighting game and have fun. However it's kinda impossible to do that without "putting in effort". The learning stages of fighting games are unfun and grindy for a lot of people, at that point why bother?
Theres a ton of gatekeepers for no reason. Like don’t they want sequels to their favorite games, why get all defensive when causal players ask for more content than just online? 🤣
@@sspah6870 wait I’m confused, I understand that people want to just “boot up just want to have fun” but why can’t they? Oh I understand they will go to fps who have “other modes” but still require you to shoot your opponent over and over again. Same thing no?(sarcastic btw) I’m taking the piss out of the fact that you call fighting games repetitive despite the fact you having to adapt in each match. And the unfun and Grindy comment is your opinion and I’m not going to argue with that.
Oh btw did I say anything wrong about if you want to get better you have to put the work in? 🤔
Funnily enough so many of these problems have been tackled by indie games individually but there's never been a full package fighting game with all of these aspects together. I'm super hopeful for sf6, tekken 8 and project L. I feel like we're looking at the start of the golden age of fighting games right now.
I'm also pretty hopeful for project L, I really hope it's good
Injustice 2 and MK11 tackled said problems.
I assume the worst would happen just so I don't get disappointed when it actually happens
Idk how Tekken Force would run in Tekken 8 maps with those graphics. They should make a setting to make the graphics low so that a PS5 or outdated pc could run it
Tekkenball, Tekken bowl and that beat em up Tekken mode were fire. More games need those. An adventure mode with stats buffs and stuff. I think ki and mk11 had something similar.
Your point about just being expected to "know things" is so true. As someone who's tried getting into many different fighting games over the years, I would always get scared away, just because of the sheer amount of frame data I would have to remember. As a newcomer, it's just not worth it at a certain point, when I just want to mess around or have fun with a game.
You don't need to know frame data just learn from experience
If tekken, Just remember your fast moves and if you feel the the opponent's move use to attack you is slow to recover, try the fastest one you got, then after that, try your move that is not fastest than the first one and if it connects, its good. And playing fighting games need experience, every game need experience. I don't know about LoL 5 years ago when my friends shows it to me, i'm too confused on what's happening and now I can make a review on the game and look for mistakes and good plays.
In reality, you don't need to know frame data, specially because things tend to be more standardized in most games of the last 10~15 years, except for Street Fighter 4 and 5.
On offense: there's 0~1 moves you have that are positive, so you're incentivized to use them to restart your pressure at low risk. There's usually 1~2 moves you should NOT use to end your pressure because they're VERY negative. That's all.
On defense: almost everything is slightly negative, so it's your turn after you block. There are usually 0~1 exceptions that are positive, so it's risky to press a button after blocking them. There's 1~2 moves that are VERY negative, so you should try to punish if you're in range. That's all.
@@CephlonMayngrum Casual gamers who begin in FG aren't ready to sit through 20 losses for 1 win online, to understand 1 matchup out of 40 characters. People like winning to stick around (dopmine)Team games provide a better chance like CSGO ect
@@NeonAstralOfficial In csgo its possible to find bad players to play with and against as a new player. The game being free and having lootbox gambling ensures theres always new people trying it out. Fighting games lack similar playerbase at the lower end that you can learn against.
More importantly shooter games are easy to learn difficult to master mechanically. If you can click "launch game" you can use that same mouse clicking skill to win in a shooter game - the path to improving your clicking speed and precision is obvious and doesn't require any research to find out thats what you should be doing. Meanwhile in fighting games every single thing you can learn is new and abstract e.g. knowing how to throw a punch doesn't inform or naturally flow into learning grabs, blocking, combos or special moves - they're all discrete actions to be learned separately. Learning even a single character's moveset in a fighting game through trial and error alone is a fool's errand
The problem with fighting games is there is no onboarding process, I buy the game, never played a fighting game ever, hit quick play and promptly get stomped in 10 seconds by some random online. Arcade mode AI is rarely representative of actually fighting another person. The people that suck and are trying to learn the game are gone within the first 6 months, leaving only the veterans.
People under estimate the usefulness of practice mode I played fighting games for years before I really learned how to play people dong have the time or patience to learn
funny, exactly the same thing happened to me when i tried battlefield one time
@@The4stro I tried BF 3 online and didn't like it too much but then I tried BF 1 and it made me look at multiplayer games with a whole new respect for their artistic value if immersion is maintained. (So no goofy doofy anime skins or whatever and a great soundtrack)
people always say the veterans are the only ones but there's always new players learning and becoming new veterans or decent players in just a few weeks.
all of them just read the instructions and practiced and had fun, it's not the game it's you
My actual problem is that i play an old game online where everyone seems to be a master. It's hard to learn when you're constantly beaten without knowing how to react. And as you said, they're games, supposed to be fun. I always give another try, but there are days when i enter one match, got beaten as if i was playing against a pro, then simply close the game to not open it till another day.
Fighting games aren’t something you can learn, they either click with you or they don’t. I’ve been playing everything from DOA to Street Fighter my entire life. None of these tutorials or guides have ever helped me get better.
@@alexandermckay9521 wow look it's the kung fu master. Yeah you can learn them, go take pride in something useful instead of humble bragging about a video game.
Literally me in jjba hftf now i just play brawlhalla because other new people play it aswell
@@alexandermckay9521 That's an absolutely ridiculous statement, no one ever picked up a fighting game and instantly understood every combo, mechanic, and every single nuance between the characters and their variations. Sure, you could argue that some people have innate advantages when it comes to reaction time or the speed at which they learn, but fundamentally, most of what makes up a "good player" is learning, practice, and the experience of getting their ass beat and learning from that too rather than dropping the game.
Exactly, and honestly is kind of boring hundreds of moves and just a few are used, besides revolves around juggling your opponents or trapping them, the game turns from a fighting experience with Styles, Powers, techniques, lore etc into a footsies contest and you are always out of control unless you copy that boring playstyle, it does not worth it, honestly Tekken 8 and SF 6 both look same as always and the absurd weight, a shitty fighting game like MKXI weights more than the Witcher 3 expansion included, that's stupid.
i think a helpful mode would be like an rpg lvling mode, where you start with very basic moves and as you progress through campaign lvl up and get morr moves to use until by the end you are a fully kitted figther. this allows the player to learn the game at a pace thats more easily digestible rather than starting out with every move and being overwhelmed.
Ok this sounds actually awesome. I'd play that, sounds fun and less stressful/overwhelming.
That's how DFO works you don't have your whole kit. Yet I know players would STILL skip a helpful mode like that and still get mad the game "didn't help them enough"
This is the correct approach, have a good campaign which teaches the player bit by bit
Its how i learned dissidia 012 final fantasy, which is probably the only fighting game to successfully do that
Then you get accused of using the leveling system to cheat at pvp (Injustice 2)
@@notproductiveproductions3504 he's not talking about something like that
A rpg type campaign where the character starts out weak and has many of his moves locked, completely seperate from the actual multiplayer/ free battle/ arcad matches
The leveling system cannot be used to cheat at PvP because its not there
Its been a while since figting games have felt like actual games and not just vs mode platforms, SF6 really gives me hope for fuller more inviting experiences on the future (strives "story mode" being just a movie was so so dissapointing btw) Great video man, insta subscribe :)
it's good that the story mode is just a movie
Your betting on street fighter 😂
It’s an overrated version of 4
@@tacobread3 Bruh why do you have to be so negative, the game isn’t even out yet, and it clearly has way more content than 4
@@tacobread3 shut up gramps
Guilty gear xrd had a great story mode and it was just a movie too, shoving gameplay into it takes the risks that MK and Street fighter v has taken of having the need to accommodate for a chapter where you stick with one character or making characters fight when it’s inappropriate and it causes the story to be much worse than guilty gear’s (as convoluted as it might be)
Main issue honestly is that people, me included are not willing to spend a week repeateadly learning a full move list in training mode before even starting to play online because its so boring and unsatisfying to play by pick up, while other games usually can be played and learned by pick up, its really hard to know what you are doing without training mode or tutorial mode, or even without reading pages of boring text in a fighting game. (also no joke im getting a hitbox delivered and i never owned a stick before lol)
No joke, I tried playing fighterz, I was bombarded with text boxes, saw the moves list and the mechanics and I just said "yeah, nevermind."
I just get reminded why I don't play fighting games💀
You don´t need to learn a characters full move set before starting to play, that´s a very inefficient way of learning.
Learn the basics than play, after awhile learn another thing and play some more, add things to your skill set over time.
For example, if you study for an exam you don´t read a whole book from beginning to end and hope to memorize everything, you take it on chapter by chapter.
The same thing applies to learning fighting games or anything else.
This lmao
People that only play fighting game dont know this, but the vast majority of the players don't think the training mode is a game mode
guile has 2 moves bruh
Fun fact, you don't need to be in training mode or learning for a week before going online.
You only need to known like 2 of the best buttons to press, a basic combo, block and how to move in the screen and you're ready.
The problem is that no fighting game tell you that, because unintuitive mechanics.
This is a nice video and makes some very good points. But the stuff you mentioned about street fighter 6 Netherrealm have been doing for years. They were amongst the first to provide frame data in fighting games. They have had so many extra features in Mortal kombat and have used roll back net code for ages.
It's why mortal kombat has been one of the most popular fighting games so far.
I started taking fighting games seriously with MK11. I was very surprised to see that most games don't offer a fraction of what's pretty much the norm in NRS fighting games as far as accessibility, single player content and teaching new/casual players the game.
Yeah i was like when does he mention the MK series
Is it worth getting into MK11 or am I better off just waiting for the inevitable MK12?
@@qu1253 There's been no announcement for MK 12 and any current news is just speculation at this point. If you were interested in Tekken 7 or Street Fighter 5 I'd have told you to wait because those 2 franchises actually are confirmed to have their sequels released this year. Not the case for MK 11, so go ahead and jump in.
Out of the current fighting games, Nether Realm Studios (creators of Mortal Kombat 9/10/11 and Injustice 1 and 2) has stayed true to having the normal 1v1 side of things while at the same time having a lot to do in the single player realm.
In Mortal Kombat 11 you have the story mode, along with an expansion that they've added (only fighting game to do that), regular towers, Towers of Time, (which is like regular towers, but with modifiers and bonuses), you can fight an extremely hard boss tower with 2 other players (similar to a difficult nightfall in a game like Destiny 2). It also has the crypt mode. The game teaches you about frame data, resources and resource management, the game's mechanics etc.
I noticed when I attempted to branch out to other fighting games (KOFXV, Tekken, Melty Blood: Type Lumina) they were lacking in a few or all of those things. Tekken didn't even come with frame data at the beginning, it was given out as paid DLC.
And what happens to nether realm studio games? They are left worse and not even that well respected within the FGC community, even something new like DB Fighters managed to overtake MK in popularity
@@j2sketchy NRS games are always gonna be popular. The reason the overall FGC has an issue with NRS games is a few reasons.
1) NRS is not a Japanese dev. The overall FGC has an elitist sentiment against fighting game devs that aren't Japanese. As if Japanese devs are the only ones that can make proper fighting games.
2) Since most Japanese developed games have similar global mechanics and aesthetics, most of the FGC expect every fighting game to have those same things (ie hold back to block, motion inputs, lack of blood and gore, cartoonish/anime look for most if not all 2D fighters etc)
3) NRS games focus on making things accessible for newer players and on the single player experience and most other fighting games do not. The overall FGC believes that fighting games shouldn't be fun outside of 1v1 competition. But at the same time the overall FGC is waiting for a Japanese dev to do what NRS is doing, which is why folks are so hyped about SF6. It's as interesting as it is ironic.
@@smoothsavage2870 tbh I think I need more to support your elitist claims about NRS not being Japanese studio, because I know many competitive players who like MK they just need more depth to their fighting games rather than casual friendly games, the ideas of “fun” is subjective. If you buying a fighting game at £60 to predominately play single player modes for like a weak and never touch the game again you think that’s a good use of your money then that’s fine with you. But I understand the simple concept that if I actually don’t want to get stomped on a fighting game then I HAVE to put the work in and no amount of crying about how other people are better than me is going to fix anything.
Tbh the more new gen fighting games have been getter no simplistic and simpler, Blazblue Crosstag, MVCI, SF5, GG Strive, DB Fighterz, even T7 having preset buttons etc and people still play those fighting games competitively. So I disagree with that statement. In fact the more complicated fighters like blazblue CF have a smaller fan base than any of these casual friendlier games. Even the same MK11 got nerfed from MKX.
@@j2sketchy Ok I have an example. Guilty Gear Strive has been lauded for having rollback netcode as if it's the first fighting game that's done this.
American devs have been using properly implemented rollback netcode for nearly a decade at this point (Iron Galaxy/Killer Instinct 2013 & NRS/Mortal Kombat X and 11 and Injustice 2). But when Strive came out, everyone acted like ArcSys was the first to do this. So i questioned why this was. A lot of the responses i got was because Strive is the first title where Japanese devs implemented good rollback, so it was groundbreaking for fighting games.
As for other forms of elitism, those are things i encounter in regards to the competitive scenes of the fighting games. A lot of people think that NRS competitors cant perform well in Japanese games like Tekken or Street Fighter. They beat down the NRS pro players about this all the time. If you're in spaces where these communities come together (like Button Check or some of RobTV's TH-cam podcasts), then you'll see it happen in the comments first hand.
@@smoothsavage2870 imma be honest with you. The thing that I hate about mortal combat and those other fighting games you listed is that the neutral/ combo game is just boring and/or clunky to me. Coming from someone who's play MvC3, USF4, DBFZ, Skullgirls, and Tekken 7. The combo/ neutral game for those you listed just fall flat on their faces imo. (Killer instinct is a love and hate relationship for me though so not including that one)
How other people beat down on pros bc they don't like that specific game isn't on the community. That's literally just how people are in any game that's remotely competitive. Same shit happens in FPS, MOBAs, MMOs, ect. There will always be a crowd that thinks something else is better and they go there to preach it bc they have nothing else to do. You think fighting games are bad? Play WOW. You'll see how the elitism stacks up against this game lmao. You cant get into a dungeon group without the minimum gear they state, EVEN IF ITS OVERKILL.
I haven’t played many fighting games outside of Super Smash Bros, and I think this video perfectly encapsulates why I’m so hesitant to. There doesn’t seem to be much to do in most of them other than just play standard VS matches over and over, and understanding the controls and mechanics of these games so that you can fully enjoy what little content there is takes a lot of commitment.
there is fighting game back in 2004 that allow you to mix your character fighting style after this no one ever copy them i was talking about def jam fight for NY
I wouldn’t say it’s so much, a lack of content, more like the fighting mechanics and how they work ARE the content, and if you aren’t into learning match-ups, learning the in-depth aspects of a character, etc. you won’t enjoy them for long. It’s really no different then a lot of competitive focused games (where the opponent and what they are personally able to do is the content)
@@djandjb1 while that's true for 1v1 modes, you can also have modes where learning the match ups are less important and give you time to familiarize with the basic controls instead of getting wailed on by someone who's played FGs for the past 10 years. Like party modes or single player campaigns. Smash has understood this from the very start with items and free for all, even if they still had a tryhard competitive mode. Some people will be happy playing as is, while someone who wants to try more has an environment to start having fun first.
Hell even Smash itself falls into that. That last one to feel like a full game was Brawl
I don't know if that explains their lack of popularity given that games having content at all is a fairly recent development, if we look at the history of games as a whole rather than video games specifically. I mean Chess doesn't have any content really, nor does Poker or Tennis or Basketball. It's just a set of rules and all you can do with them is play matches against an opponent. It's not as if they have different levels or characters, there are rule variations but then fighting games have things that are pretty analogous to that too.
Then again I wouldn't be surprised if all those games are less popular than video games in terms of the number of people enjoying them casually, but nonetheless you never really hear people complaining that they're dead and nobody wants to play them like you do with fighting games. At least I haven't heard anybody doing that.
Actually maybe that could kind of explain it. Most video games, at least more popular games, are arguably more similar to films or TV in that they're platforms to deliver content to be consumed, as opposed to traditional games that are systems to be mastered. Of course these games still have systems, but they work in tandem with the content to form a whole package as opposed to being the central focus, like they are in other kinds of video games and more traditional games. I really enjoy content-focused games but let's be honest, it takes a lot less effort to consume content than it does to learn the ins and outs of an arbitrary set of rules, so maybe this is why those kinds of games are popular and genres that are more system-focused like fighting games aren't. I mean watching TV is more popular than playing sports, too.
But then again AGAIN, I really don't think other competitive genres like shooters or Dota or TCGs have much more content than fighting games, hell some of them arguably have less. I mean most multiplayer shooters don't have an arcade mode, do they? Sure you can play with bots, but you don't even get a boss or a cute ending like you would in a fighting game. And yet they're more popular. So I really don't know.
Great vid! I totally agree that the lack of features in fighting games is what truly holds them back. These devs have been slow to learn, but it looks like ArcSys is stepping up in connectivity and SF6 is stepping up with the content that the game offers, so hopefully those two combined is enough to convince the others to catch up
lmao people don't like losing, Fighting games are competitive, the whole point of the game is playing against another person, and people want participation trophies
@@eclisis5080 Eeeehhh.... card games are mostly 1v1 as well; And much like fighting games there are people who enjoy learning how to pilot a deck or people complaining about balance if they lose. And Digital CCGs is quite a huge market with YGO, MTGA and Hearthstone.
Cards games although have the upside of you collecting cards you want/need to keep engagement up.
@@boxtupos7718so what you're saying is fighting games need to add a gotcha system so they can be more popular
@@markjack9772 Pretty clear to me that you have no idea how modern digital card games work.
Gatcha might still be a think, but most card games have wild cards that allow you to get the cards you want. I only used the collection track as a possible pool as to why people stick to card games, as ultimately it is still called CCG (Collectible Card Game).
I'll go even further on something that most cards games do better than fighting games; Having a core/base set, a set of beginner cards that everyone gets access to in the beginning, with the purpose of teaching basic gameplay mechanics to the players.
@@boxtupos7718 nothing you wrote is contradictory to what I wrote
When playing fighting games, I personally tend to gravitate towards series with strong single player content like Soulcalibur as you mentioned and Mortal Kombat for example. There can be fighting games with provide mechanical depth for hardcore fans while also giving casual fans more reasons to keep playing fighting games.
This was a great video! Well Done!
I like the Tale of Souls in Soul Calibur 3 a TON. It makes combat feel like there is a goal you work towards, even if the balance quickly becomes evil no-hit challenges every fight. I like the challenge regaurdless, since I like having my wins and losses have larger impact overall. (Imagine an RTS where you control 5 units, and each unit reprisents a character. When that character touches the enemy character, you go into a normal fighting match, and your health carries over, with your enviroment giving buffs and debuffs.)
I'm gonna reply to my own message to highlight it as being something I REALLY hope they do again.
Fusing RTS with FIghting Games is a thing I call a stroke of genius. Your SKILL can make your 1 man army (Your Main) against the swarm of low health grunts that come 3 at a time (Each going down with one KO, and a different one with a different appearance) feel justified and fair, since YOU worked for those wins! The POWER of struggling to beat 3 opponents that are not easy by any means, but just have smaller health bars. It feels AMAZING.
If you want proof, look at the fights against the Jack 5's in Tekken 7. Felt amazing to crush those bots, but it was isolated to the story mode. By all means, allow us to litter the battlefield with the bodies of out fallen foes! Our victory pose surrounded by 10 grunts (That were not easy) would feel amazing.
@@Parelf i think those are more like action combat games. I think fighting games are more so like chess. A strict 1v1 type deal. It would be pretty cool if you did have dynamic maps, with dyanmic scenarios, and the ability to take direct control of units to fight other units. I just think it would be to far detached from what a fighting game would actually be. If you zero in on the actual skill expression and fighting mechanics, it would take away from the over all map battle. If you focus to much on map battle, then it could ruin the 1v1 combat.
Then you have the issue of the skill curve. Obviously you would need to be ver good at RTS and Fighting games. Thats two different skill sets you need to master, and like i mentioned before, if the game tries to simplfy one or the other, it would ruin balance. The skill ceiling would be way to high. It would end up being very obscure and not popular. It is like Boxing and Chess are huge. Boxing chess is much smaller. You can get massive specialists in boxing and chess seperatly. IS a boxing chess master, actually better than a boxer or a chess grandmaster? No. They just won't be good enough vs the specilization. They are just good enough to do both decently. There is no way you would get a chess grandmaster in a pro boxing ring, and you wouldn't catch a pro boxer trying to get top 8 in a chess tourney either.
@@Parelf You're referring to chronicles of the sword. And yeah it was a fun mode. That along with Deception's conquest mode need to return
@@yummychips_ dude trust me and Mac, the mode actually works. Your concern about "map" battle really only happens a couple times when there's a strong gust of wind on the stage, the floor is ice or the flooding labyrinth thing
And nah you really didn't need to be good at rts'ing. Just ramrod your way through the forts and force a 1v1 (or take on waves of said opponents like in mortal kombat's endurance matches). Hell I made a team of CAS Takis (had to level them up of course) and literally Taking my way thru it all for fun
amazing comment, i remember to play that A LOT
I think the genre's biggest misstep in history is the push to appeal more toward hardcore players, (or players who are already familiar with fighting games) while being unconcerned with new players' experiences. If you stuck with street fighter since 2, you were plenty primed for something like Marvel vs Capcom, because the games leading up to it kept building on aspects, complexity, and nuance, while forgetting to properly reintroduce concepts to new players.
A lot of this probably comes from arcades, where new players weren't as much of a factor toward success as the fans who played consistently.
They got comfortable adding complexity, raising the skill floor, and raising the skill ceiling, but they forgot to add ladders to help players climb up to that initial floor.
Guilty Gear Strive is the first fighting game in a long time to truly break the game down to its roots, examine what keeps new players from understanding fighting games, and took great steps to rebuild the entire structure into an approachable, easy to understand, easy to read package. You can watch a Strive match at 144p and still tell what's happening. I think that does a lot more than people realize.
People should be rewarded for legacy skill though and new players can learn the game through practice and fighting other new players while i get where you're coming from i don't entirely agree
@@jenpachi2408 There needs to be a compromise, and "hardcores" feeling shorthanded will be an inevitable side-effect. End of the day, appealing to the current FGC makes zero financial sense (or it's getting closer to zero).
New players shouldn't be left in the dirt, and the loyal playerbase need their loyalty rewarded. Both need to be done at the same time, but if it is not possible to be perfect in both cases, the future of the FGC depends on leaning towards servicing new players.
You can't just say that new players should just sit down and grind, that's just making excuses for why the FGC should keep stonewalling growth. The hardcores aren't enough to keep the FGC alive.
Exactly
@@jenpachi2408
And fundamentally, that's the way it works for pretty much any other multiplayer battle game in other genres (good ones, I mean). You are rewarded for skill, but you aren't stuck at the bottom
Completely disagree. Fighting games are inherently competitive games that, without the element of fighting another human being, are just really, really clunky and limited action games.
Strive didn't do anything new. Fighting games have been simplifying themselves for years thinking that was their issue when complexity never harmed sales in any genre whatsoever. SFIV was sold on simplification and accessibility. SFV was sold on further simplification (and it did little good). All current fighting games present themselves as accessible, even though the issues are with learning tools and side content for casuals who are never to want to learn the game anyway.
Honestly, the reason why I shy away from fighters isn't that they aren't appealing to me or that I don't enjoy learning complex or difficult games. It's because the learning stages of a fighting game are grindy to the point of tedium, and it takes so long to get past those grindy and unfun learning stages that it just doesn't feel worth it. In the time it takes me to just get decent at a single fighting game (not even good, just to reach a point where I don't get endlessly juggled), I could finish multiple other games.
Playing fighting games is like playing chess without knowing how the pieces work
this^
and just like playing chess you can't do much until you learn how to play, do you inherently know the rules of chess or how every piece moves before learning it? no so why would any fighting game be different.
@@joedatius mmm yes comparing a centuries year old game to an entire videogame genre to demonstrate why accessibility isn’t necessary. Yep that’ll show em
@@thepikminbrawler1746 The OP comment is literally doing the same thing because thats what an analogy is. sorry you couldn't understand it but the point of my comment is how you can't start a game you never played before and except to know how the game works.
where the did you even read me say anything about accessibility or being against it, why would i be against it??
accessibility is about making rules understandable and helping a player get a grasp on them and the more fundamental parts of a game. stuff like clear and understandable tutorials, informative practice modes, single player content to allow people to gain some affinity with how a game even plays and various options for your UI and sound that can help you understand mechanics and improve your individual readability.
Exactly why they are fun, you will eventually learn every piece and how to utilize or beat em. Blazblue is my personal favorite because there is so much to learn
I been playing fighting games for a long time now. And learning basic combos and character specials were always enough for me to get by. I play online for a bit, but get super bored not because I lose or whatever, but it just gets repetitive. I love fighting games for the characters, the lore, and the single player if they offer it. I love customizing my characters, and getting to know more of them through arcade endings or story modes.
(Edit: If you like playing online thats awesome. But, I rather fight people locally when I do go 1 V 1, because we can make up rules, choose different characters so we don’t have to fight the same characters over and over, and have a good conversation after. Nothing wrong if you enjoy playing with randoms, but to me that’s not the reason I fell in love with fighting games.)
The thing is that it shouldn't be repetitive to play online. If you're adapting your gameplan to the matchup or player, then every match should be different
@@goby1764 exactly my point, ngl this guy sounds cool however some other people who have the same talking points as this guy use it as an excuse to not get any better at the game anfdd blame the genre.
@@goby1764 Even if the match ups are different its still playing the same mode over and over. I get what you’re saying about learning to adapt and play different players, but that would mean Im still playing 1 V 1 with randoms and to me thats repetitive. Thats why I like when fighting games offer more than just online, training, and a bare bones arcade mode.
@@j2sketchy If other people are saying the same thing as I am I wouldn’t say we are making an “excuse” to not get good. Its just some players love fighting games for the characters, story, and having casual fun mainly with local play. Not everyone needs to get good, because not everyone wants to play competitive or challenge others online. Heck theres even youtube channels dedicated to just talking about the stages, music, characters, and lore. Theres a place for both types of players, and what matters the most is that both types of players support and love fighting games.
@@knighttrax4237 Ok I see what you’re doing here and you’re not going to twist it into some sort of “elitist vs casual chat”. I never said casual can’t enjoy. I am saying stop saying silly things like “repetitive” when it’s not true because by definition the word “adapt” breaks that talking point. Because to adapt means you have to change therefore meaning it’s by definition NOT repetitive. And with the 1 V1 you can make the same generic argument with story games. Like for example god of war, DMC “I just go and kill many enemies then watch a Cutscene and then fight a boss that’s repetitive.” Like that argument doesn’t make sense because whether it’s a 1 V1 or 2V2 the match ups need adapting!
Not everyone needs to get good, I agree but then if you don’t want to take time to get good at the game why cry and complain about others who took time to? And listen, if you are casual(which I am too) and you literally only buy fighting games for the story offline play etc) and you don’t complain or anything that’s fine, but if you are a casual and then go and cry about people who actually take time to get good at the game then you are making excuses because you could do the same thing they do but you don’t want to. They also bought the game fair and square let them play how they wany
I think an important thing you missed is the difficulty of finding "optimal" combos, of course most games usually have a combo trial mode but this is rarely the actual useful / optimal combos you want to be doing as an intermediate player. A game that addresses this really well is Guilty Gear Strive with their combo recipe system which I'd love in every fighting game TBH, it makes finding combos a lot easier and an actual fun way to play the game as well.
Fighting games, for the most part, are still stuck in the Arcade Era, whereas every other genre has moved on.
Even niche genres like Rythm games and Shoot 'em Ups have seen great success in the indie scene because they continue to innovate. Heck, some of the greatest advancements in fighting games have happened in indie games.
Why do AA and AAA studios struggle so much to do the same?
LOVE IT.
I've been only playing fighting games since 2020, but throught those two years so much critisism and acknolwledgemnt of lack of polish in key features have been discussed so much recently. It makes me really excited fo the next titles.
Two things I would like to point out, it's pretty obvious that japanese game developers are the ones struggling the most trying to adapt and deliver a product of quality.
MK11 and western indie fighting games do so much right when talking about onboarding and online features.
And secondly, as you have said with tekken, it's impossible to know if a move is plus or minus on block without looking at a google sheet. One clever solution I would love to see in the future is the way Fantasy Strike implemented it when a move is blocked, the colors of the blockstun effect change depending on frame data.
If a move is 0, it shows a yellow effect
If a move is plus, it shows a blue effect
If a move is minus, it shows a red effect.
This feedback via colors would do so much for begginers to understand basic frame data without even looking at a google sheet. I would love to see it in more titles in the future.
Fighting game people say they want features, but when fighting games do have features, not only do players not use them, but they complain that they even exist. Fighting game people are creatures of habit. Which only makes sense, because fighting games have some of the worst learning curves and ratios of time spent to time enjoyed.
Good video overall. I am surprised by some large omissions. You mentioned Smash as a fighting game but ignored Mortal Kombat and Injustice. Mk11 had massive sales and maintains a large casual audience. MK11 and Injustice 2 have large single player story modes, and significant RPG-ish single player content. Both are published by WB Games. Multiverses is not WB’s entrance into fighting games.
Mortal Kombat and Injustice were admittedly a big ommision from me, mainly cuz I have little experience with them personally. But it is true that MKX and MK11 both sold around 12 million units (which is insane for fighting games) largely because of what you mentioned. Thing is though, Netherrealms' library of fighters is generally the exception at the moment rather than the norm, and in this video I was detailing how the other big players have managed to finally figure out how important good content, excellent online and intuitive combat really is.
@@Ardrid_ I agree with all your points regarding Capcom, Bandai, and Arc. I am very much looking forward to 2023 as well!!
Injustice 1 and Mortal Kombat Komplete Edition taught me that modern fighting games are not for me. I wasn't even able to pass their Advanced TUTORIALs because I was literally unable to do some of the required combo moves no matter how I much I tried. I did manage to complete their stories, which at least in Injustice 1 turned out to be easier than the aforementioned tutorial, but MKK story mode was the horrible experience of me bashing my head against the AI opponents until they dumbed themselves down to punching bags.
I just remembered MK Deception, heh. In this game were awesome single player modes: konquest and chess kombat (I was playing at chess even more than ladder lol). Too bad they don't do things like this anymore.
People have used the leveling system to cheat at pvp in Injustice 2
A lot of fighting games before the internet age had a lot of modes and replay value. Not only that, but they had unlockables, which modern fighting games shy away from. SF6 will be a huge test if the RPG mode will be successful in a fighting game or not. Tobal 1 and 2 don't count lol. I think SF6 is going to be a game changer. Hopefully FG devs will learn and make great single player experiences, and use modern netcode.
I loved the RPG mode in SC2 and SC3. Do they count for you?
@@danielsicko8593 I loved SC1, 2 and 3 for their RPG modes, but they were more like glorified board games.
I play almost every genre of video game except for racing games (I can’t stand the rubber-banding in those games) and fighting games. I used to play fighting games, back when I was a kid and you could invite friends over and play against each other. The minute I left middle school, I stopped. Last “fighting game” I ever played was…. Tekken Tag Tournament?
I’ve never bothered to even try to get back in to fighting games since then. The terminology employed is almost deliberately opaque, and while there are some who are trying to get new people into fighting games, the actual games themselves don’t seem too eager to be inviting. Rather, they seem to be focused on appealing to the hard-core crowd to the exclusion of new players.
Rubberband is such fake ass artificial difficulty that makes me wanna gouge my eyeballs out.
Super good quality, hope this performs well :)
Thank you :)
I think it's just an infeasible value proposition for a lot of people. A full price AAA game plus essentially mandatory DLC plus often some sort of battle pass in some of them, for what essentially amounts to what appears to be what would be a minigame in a much older PS1-PS2 era game. No matter how much depth and replayability it has, they just appear to have nowhere near enough content to justify their price, unless you're entrenched enough in the scene that you can derive literally thousands of hours out of it, with a massive time investment and grind before you can even start having fun with it.
It's just so hard to sell someone on $100+ for a single 2D multiplayer only game mode you have to dedicate your time to before you can actually start playing it for real. To a lot of people buying a fighting game feels like paying for 2 games and getting a third of a real one.
1. There is no battle pass in fighting games
2. fighting games don't cost full price, idk where people are getting this notion, but it's wrong. At most FGs cost 50 dollars, at least it's 5 (and all of them have over 100+ players playing them).
3. DLC isn't mandatory if you wait a year there will be a "arcade version" where the first DLC pass is included with the base game. Or (if you playing SF5) you can just use fight money.
I have got an idea about a fighting game:
A game similar to team fortress 2 where there is a small roaster of fighters and instead of changing the weapons you change the attacks of each fighter.
And the attacks could have the same balance philosophy of team fortress 2 where they are "creative side-grades" instead of "regular sidegrades".
(The term "creative side-grade" is a term that I had to come up just now because there ia no other way of describing them.
In team fortress 2 the sidegrades aren't just "we changed the stats of the weapon and we called it a day", they are often more "we decreased some stats and made up for them by adding extra features like the weapon having a charge shot or guaranteed critical hits under certain conditions or helps you regain health etc).
Such system would add variety to the game without the need to make a huge roaster of characters thus making it easier for begginers to know how to react to each opponent and they wouldn't need to memorize a crapload of combos.
Mortal Kombat 11 has this. It does not make the game easier or more engaging, I'm afraid.
I love the footsies arcade mode and how it teaches abstract fundamentals in a intuitive and engaging way
what game has that?
@@mrosskne "FOOTSIES Rollback Edition" By: HiFight
We live in tiktok era, people just want to have fast fun, that's why shooters are so popular, just shoot someone and have fun... Fighting games are more deep and dificult to learn, not for everyone sadly.
This has been an issue since the early 00s. Long before Tiktok was even a thought.
Lol that makes no fucking sense, a cs game can take up to 30 minutes while a fg match is like 2 minutes MAX
Meanwhile the TikTokers who listened to the entirety of Everywhere at the End of Time in one sitting.
@@Joaogab29 no, they're talking about the initial learning curve. fighting games generally require more time to learn the mechanics of the game
This has nothing to do with modern generation. I was getting my ass handed to me by fireball spammers that I couldn't copy and cheap AI in the 90s. Fighting games have a huge learning curve in learning combos, you have to do crazy things with your controls requiring fast fingers, strong memory and read your opponent like no other game. There's a reason popular beat em up games only had punch, kick and block, it's a great basic fundamentals to start from.
I don't need the whole genre to change. I just want one fighting game where
1) I don't need to memorize 6+ button combos for 20+ characters to know what I'm up against
2) I don't need to learn weird unintuitive rocket science like frame data to actually understand what does and doesn't work as a combo or is easy to punish etc.
3) I have more options to get enjoyment out of the game than just getting my head bashed in by people who have been playing this genre for decades
Nice video. Very impressive for the first one on your channel. Good flow to the script, good music selection, good audio levels, and good editing. Well done.
The one and only thing I HATE the most to do in fighting games whenever I’m playing the PS1, Sega Dreamcast, PS2, PSP, Xbox 360 and Nintendo Switch (the only video game consoles that I have and played growing up from my childhood to recently in my adulthood) is doing combos because they’re so freaking hard and difficult to get right and I’m not really into that a lot and I don’t think I will forever because I’m a CASUAL fighting game fan, always have always will. I just want to play fighting games so I can mess around and have fun. I just want to play fighting games that has lots of content for me to do, lots of replay value, different games modes, different controller types, appeals to CASUALS and DIEHARDS and most importantly, LOTS OF FUN! And I hoping that this next console generation will have companies learn from their mistakes and make fighting games better than ever before and fun for everyone else including me. Awesome job on the video, dude!👍🏾❤️🥊🎮
this video is dope. it’s always nice to see newer creators and especially new FGC ones! i look forward to more of your videos whether fighting games or not, and good luck to the grind homie.
a lot of the points in this video is valid and you have such a natural delivery, sick editing too- i’m really rooting for you!
Maybe this sounds a bit elitist to say but IMO I feel you can't change much about the "Information Overload" for FGs. Sure you can make it easier to understand 'when you should press and when you shouldn't' or 'what you situations there are to consider'. But at the end of the day if the player chooses to 'just have fun' in what is a naturally competitive environment without attempting to learn, they will eventually turn away anyways and just not play the game. And I'm decently sure some of the devs see this and choose not to add content for people who won't come.
My argument is flawed I know. But for me I grew up playing games where half the fun is learning the game itself. That's why I choose Fighting Games over other genres. Cause there is always more to learn.
I agree, especially since a lot of the genre's fundamentals stay the same between games, its kind of a legacy skill youre meant to develop over time. You cant just do a tutorial and suddenly have godlike neutral, even reading forums like dustloop and mizuumi and learning what moves are plus and minus on block, its hard to immediately understand what that means or looks and feels like, short of gaining that experience firsthand. Though fighters should have more technical training modes like skullgirls, fantasy strike, or arcsus chroma, in the sense that it gives you the frame data straight up, even hitstun windows. but just like you said regardless of if they give you that information directly its up to you to apply it.
NRS putting in Krypt along with towers and augment builds is kinda a nice direction for messing around with stuff that goes outside of just straight vs mode
Krypt is amazing. I really wish more games had it. Though I like MKX's krypt more than 11's, personally.
I think another very big issue (to casuals) is how long the matches are. If they’re used to FPS games, then dying is not a big deal because they’re getting kills often enough to feel like small victories. Compare that to a fighting game where the match can easily last 3 minutes and if you lose, that’s it. There’s no small victory like earning kills in CoD death match. In a fighting game, losing is just losing and it makes the whole match feel like a waste of time (to casuals)
Interesting point. In that sense, I think Tekken, Versus games and platform fighters do a nice job of giving you smaller wins along the way, just because Tekken can be very explosive with ft3 rounds (instead of having longer rounds), in Versus games you can take characters and in platform fighters you can take stocks. Guilty Gear Strive could also go with ft3 rounds with how explosive it is, and it would probably be beneficial.
I think at that point its about shifting priorities no? less from "just wanting to win" and more of "I just want to land this" which is infinitiely more achievable then beating someone.
@@binis6452 sure, but what I meant is fighting games should literally add goals like that. Like “Land 20 special moves today” or something that you can achieve while still losing
If fighting game matches are too long for people then no wonder RTS games have fallen off so hard.....
Another braindead take from this guy I wonder if he’s even played a fps or a video game
My personal problem with fighting games I am bad at figuring out what links into what and how to use that. Also the timing in a lot of fighting games bothers me. It's not that I can't do the input fast it's just in a lot of fighters that's not enough. As in it's not enough to just do the input as fast as you can you have to have a very specific timing that isn't always told to you and can be hard to grasp. I just like to mess around in fighters. I even have fun fighting AI opponents.
Thanks for the heart man I was scared of getting judged hard.
Yeah, that's part of the challenge. Links are tough, and vary depending on game and character. Even Gatlings can be tough. That's why fighting game *are* difficult. You need to have the ability to execute tight timings constantly. That's not unique to fighting games though. Even Platformers like Kaizo, IWB, WoV all have incredibly demanding inputs.
@@BlahBlahFreeman Platformers are the games I am best at. Your not wrong but in fighting games the timing is more abstract. IF you get your timing wrong in a platformer you just die. If you get it wrong in a fighting game then nothing happens or something different happens. Also the timing isn't as clear.
It's inspiring to see someone's first video be so high quality and be rewarded for it. I hope that your success so far will motivate you to make more videos. Thank you for uploading; it truly means more to me than I'm able to articulate.
To me the worst thing is having to grind the hours of practice to be able to pull off combos and punishes consistently. Not exactly fun.
50% of the reasons I don't but fighting games anymore is because they are to expensive, with each announcing season passes, freemium mechanics and other "must have to stay competitive" Dlc before it even comes out as if it is a good thing.
40% of the reasons is that with most of the content being DLC, the game doesn't have collection value like physical games do, rising my buyer's remorse through the roof.
The last 10% is that I'll get my ass handed to me by all the veterans, when I'll eventually buy the "Complete edition" at the end of the game's life.
The issue I have with fighting games is the disjoint between what I want my character to do, and what the character on the screen does.
The fact that I have to do a specific sequence of inputs to preform a move which I could be able to perform with a single button in any other genre seems like a remnant of a bygone era that artificially inflates dificulty and makes the learning curve more steep for no valid reason.
In RTS, RPGS, MOBA's and literally any other genre there is instant feedback, I press a button, the character does exactly what I told them to.
Having to practice sequences of inputs, timings to cancel animations and learn combos to execute them by memory is not a prospect I find enjoyable in the slightest.
One year later. Street Fighter 6's campaign was disliked, the novelty modes were untouched, and Multiversus died twice
I like the way gg strive uses positive reinforcement through its announcer. Everytime you time a counter hit it will tell you. Also things like burst and roman cancels look flashy and have a really clean animation that makes it easy to read that incourages people to use it and feel good about using it. And makes it easier to figure out what the counter play is as well.
Edit: just got to this part of the video. Glad you mentioned it, it is really good xD
The Story mode for SF6 is a massive deal when it comes to familiarizing people with basic concepts on how to play fighting games and it shouldn't be overlooked.
having your own player agency to just walk around with your character and fight at your leisure in a solo setting does wonders when it comes to teaching people how to play and how to enjoy your game naturally.
Especially since you're not just fighting constantly but also exploring and progressing and gaining new things that also give the player a connection with characters and the setting allowing them to actually gain an affinity to the game first so you're not just picking from a roster of characters you never met and only know from pop culture osmosis but you're choosing to play as Jamie or Ken because you saw them do something cool in the story or because Blanka was funny when you hang out with him, yeah sure you might not know how to use his combos perfectly but you like the character and thats a big deal when it comes to not only making people interested in a game but also keep playing when there is more to grab onto.
Got this on my recommended. Then noticed is your first video on the channel. Congrats, it’s really polished :)
All your points really sum up why fighting games aren’t perceived as fun by many. It took me 300 hours to somewhat understand what I am doing and what I should do in tekken. It was something that I have never experienced before and it really hit hard.
I love the video it's very well done. I really hope all Fighting games get updated with Rollback eventually.
The thing with teaching tools/modes in fighting games is that even if we give all the information players will still lose because that's just the nature of it. So even if a player is improving if they lose they'll feel like it was all for nothing. Incredibly unsafe moves can be turned into an attack with a huge advantage. See the problem isn't necessarily that games aren't telling us what to punish. Especially if you look at ArcSys tutorials/mission modes where they give you the answers. The problem more so lies in Fighting Games are lot more freeform than people realize. Sure we can spell out every single attack give them all the frame data tools but that's honestly never going to help because a large part of the fun, exhilaration, and strategy in fighting games comes from the ambiguity of your opponent and what options they'll do next. There's literally no guide on that especially once you consider no one ever plays the same in a fighting game. We can pick the exact same characters but focus on completely different aspects. Which is when the players have to figure out their opponent MID MATCH and win. Labbing, frame data, video guides, coaching, and comeback mechanics can only do so much for teaching the player but the reality is that the player should constantly adapt to the new challenge and come up with a gameplan on the fly. That's when most people quit. Because then they realize "Oh fuck I'm still fighting for my life despite all the hours of training" and yeah that's fighting games. Do you think Pros win all the time NO! They just have much easier time adapting to OTHER GOOD PLAYERS which is something new players hate doing which is fighting a better opponent. They want an "equal". Misdirection on these deeper concepts is why FGs still seem so impenetrable. There will never truly be a perfect learning environment that is comparable to playing the matches and try to adapt to your new opponent of this 30+ character cast. Think of Tekken 7 moves and try to imagine what it would be like for a player to study EVERY SINGLE MOVE. A single character has over 100 moves and they can all be applied in various ways. So not only would they learn 54 x 100 moves but also any other form they can be in. There's simply no way to conveniently give information to the player especially trying to sort out what they truly need to overcome their skill plateau. That honestly comes down to the dedication and practice habits of the player. Which is something FGC seems to never want to admit but it's true. It's mostly the current mindset of the players and this incident demand to cater to them more and more and more but without ANY of the WORK. Then somehow complain they can't beat someone who's knows the game because they played it more and studied hard. Which is 100% how it's always going to be. The sooner players start to take more accountability that's when we'll see more better players but atm.... They're just following a scripted sequence some video tried to brainwash them into 😕
How are you supposed to teach someone something like this? More controversially should you even teach crazy things like this even though it's utterly ridiculous and hard as hell to do?
th-cam.com/video/YJ7UH8nbB3I/w-d-xo.html
The whole idea of why you don't know things in a fighting game is horribly miscalculated. There's so much going on with the Player themselves that isn't ever considered or even really talked about. Was it because of new and better learning tools that Capcom gave why Daigo won that fight? No. It was him. All him and that's the beauty of fighting games.
Compare Fighting Games to any other online game. Fighting Games give you waaaaaay more than all these other popular multiplayer games and yet we still insist "It's the games fault I'm not learning". Did any of the Call of Duties give you advance tutorials on all the maps of all weapon types and loadouts? No literally just dumps you into the game. No tutorial no nothing and yet people still found and made their own advanced tech like slide cancelling to move around the map at insane speed while maintaining control of your gun. Yet nobody was up in arms about how the game isn't trying to to teach you things and they still figured everything out. Honestly we just got a lot weaker in the FGC when it comes to trying to get more players. Now we're straight up lying to them why they're losing games.
All of this yes
thats a lotta words
I wanted to get in on the whole "unintuitive" discussion.
So, I've been playing fighting games for about twenty years now. I've played every single Tekken release, 1-7,though I very rarely play online because I can't say I like very much. I mostly played with a group of IRL friends or alone. When the video asked me to say what moves were safe on block, my reaction was: what the hell does safe on block mean?
I keep hearing about "frame data". I have no clue what that means.
I learnt that it was even possible to block throws about 3 years after Tekken 7's release. Still don't know how to do that though.
I discovered that counter hits are a thing probably a year before that.
When TTT2's tutorial taught me juggle combos, my reaction was: "Wait,you're SUPPOSED to do that? We... we spent literal years forbidding each other from doing that because we thought it was an unsportsmanlike exploit that you weren't supposed to do!"
Yeah.
I think it's pretty damning for the FG genre when not one but multiple players can play the same FG series for decades and not even realise the EXISTENCE of mechanics that competitive players say are "basic" mechanics.
you definitely have some good points but I think the reason traditional fighting games aren't very popular is because the skill gap can be stagnating for newer players.
This logic can apply to any game. You can make any game seem as simple or as complicated as you'd like, and if you enjoy yourself it being complex shouldn't stop you from learning the game in question. I think it's more that tournaments and such give this fake impression that you HAVE to learn every little thing going in, even though when you play any game and when people first played fighting games in the arcades, they simply found the games cool and went for it without worrying about everything there would be to learn immediately
@@doomman7349 Thats why single player is so important for this genre, theres just so much to learn so a campaign that eases you into the mechanics of the game and gives you chances to makes use of them is definitely going to attract more players.
@@doomman7349 the whole point of fighting games is playing against another person, you mentioned arcade, nobody played fighting games in the arcade in single player mode lmao, it was always against other people, only way to do that in person no ideas is tournaments, because there aren't anymore arcades or local play at your house, and people don't socialize like that anymore that's why online gaming is popular and co op games don't exist anymore that play locally
@@doomman7349 In games where it's not 1v1, you can get past the skill gap because you'll have teammates that can carry you until you get better. In fighting games, you have only yourself to depend on.
That I think is something depending on the kind of person you are. On one hand you might find it better to play team based games for the reason you mentioned, or you'd be playing fighting games because you prefer not having anything affect the outcome other than you and the obstacle you're facing
Man... As someone who grew up playing fighting games, and who also spent a lot of my childhood gaming time Alone, I feel this. Standout games like Street Fighter Alpha 3 with World Tour mode, Soul Caliber with it's campaign, Tekken with the wacky stories and modes etc. Kept me in the genre.
That being said, I feel like a lot of the problems you've pointed out are actually fairly recent. Fighting games have always been about taking the arcade to the couch. All of the other stuff was extra. Beat em up modes weren't standardized, but that was a different genre of game. Lol same thing with many of the other issues.
When I play a fighting game, I'm ok just playing a fighting game. Lol That being said, I was a competitive smash player for a while and my favorite smash game overall is Brawl. I hated that game competitively, but Subspace emissary made it so fun for someone who spent most of their time alone that I didn't care about tripping and would just play the game for the single player modes (that also had co-op! Lol)
But I really resonate with issues like Online sucking. Those things are "permission to play" elements for any video game. If the point is to fight people, and you can't even do that online... we're missing something lol
I'm torn a little on hidden tech and mechanics. Many fighting games developed through the community discovering things that later were implemented into the genre. Discovering exploits of the game's systems and developing new techniques is a part of fighting games that have been a part of their appeal since SF2. Fighting games aren't easy to get good at, but that makes BEING good at them an actual accomplishment. I don't necessarily think we should take that away. I think some of the mechanics you mentioned are good compromises, but I also see a lot of fighting games just dumbing down the play in order to make the game appeal to a more broad audience. That causes it's own host of issues as it's really difficult to please a casual and a try-hard at the same time. Lol
All in all, great video content! Thanks for sharing this with us!
I have an idea what would be a fun game mode.
Match starts with one player having a timer bomb on them, and whenever they hit the other player the bomb attaches to the player that got hit.
The goal is to get the bomb to explode on your oponent, and not you.
I imagine it either with no health bars, or some kind of long knockdown when you run out of health, after which your health resets.
Funnily enough I literally showed an example of that in this video! One of the levels in Soulcalibur 2's weapon master mode has that exact same concept (Its at around 7:20 i think?). I do think that should've been an actual gamemode in the game now that you've said about it, cuz that could teach people about playing defensive and the best strats to avoid getting hit.
That's a mini game in Fusion Frenzy.
super solid video!
tho i really dont see the lack of content point, each char is like a puzzle to figure out in fighthing games and takes hours on top of hours of knowing exactly how to use them and then how to apply them in matches. its awesome to me tbh, love learning them and becoming better and better in each match trying dif play styles.
these games, tekken, sf5, smash, etc. they all just give me a lot of more fun and let me learn each match atleast more than getting insta killed in mw2 for the 50th time and just saying "guess i shouldnt have went over that corner".
Yea it's funny seeing people that are ok playing Shoot House and Shipment 100s of times over complain about content.
@@dandre3K because literally no one does that
The content problem exist only in the FG community and no outsider would ever think this is a problem
@@stylesheetra9411 What problem? 😂
@@dandre3K the lack of content, you will never find someone outside of fighting games saying that their pvp game lacks content
@@stylesheetra9411 When did I say I'm ok with that? Relax I just think the observation is amusing it's not that deep lol.
this channel is WAY too high quality to not have like 100k subscribers keep up the great work
Honestly? I would love a fighting game with a well-fleshed out campaign without a bunch of fluff. A place where a player can choose to play something else after being satisfied by the campaign, or decide to tackle a new challenge in multiplayer. Silly modes are fun, but a solid campaign that naturally teaches the player while being fun is my holy grail of a skill-based game.
Let's take Ultrakill as an example of a great skill-based single player campaign. The game is really good at explaining its mechanics and expanding upon them as the game progresses. You start with one gun with one alt fire, and some evasive moves (dash, slide, parry, and the basic jump). The encounters are designed to teach you how to engage with the core mechanics, and what's even better is that you can do so at your own pace. You don't have to improve at every single evasion technique to progress, because it doesn't matter how you evade basic enemy attacks as long as hitbox no touchy hurtbox. Some evasive moves are *better* in certain situations, but often times there's more than one way out of getting hit. The game encourages getting better at these different techniques more than punishing for not knowing specific ones. Of course, there are bosses where you're tested and you need to be skilled enough to beat them.
But also, the game encourages you to take risks with its health system. As the tagline says, MANKIND IS DEAD, BLOOD IS FUEL, HELL IS FULL. The only way to heal (apart from extremely rare pickups) is to do damage at close range and get bled on, or parrying. To survive, you need to learn to be aggressive, and getting aggressive gives you more opportunities to get attacked and learn how to evade. No QT- I mean, glory kills here. Get in close and eviscerate.
Lastly, there's the ripped-from-DMC style meter that rewards chaining moves together, encouraging the player to move with purpose; don't just think about your next move, what are you going to do after that? Can you keep that score multiplier up? Parry to headshot to explosive ki- wait, what's a "disrespect?" What UK does over DMC is that each special thing you can do to increase your style is explicitly named. You are encouraged (I keep using that word and that's important) to experiment with your ever increasing roster of weapons and enemies and discover new weird shit you can do. The revolver variant that lets you throw coins and shoot them in the air to do trick reflect shots for bonus damage? What happens if you throw two coins? What happens if I shoot the coin with the other hitscan weapon, the electric railg- HOLY SHIT YOU CAN SHOOT THE COIN WITH THE RAILGUN AND GET A HUGE DAMAGE BOOST.
And it doesn't stop there. There's so many ways that mechanics synergize that you stumble upon even more weird shit you can do. Did you try to parry right after firing your shotgun? Guess fucking what, you punched your own shotgun projectile, making it go faster and explode on impact. One of the shotgun's alt-fire launches a grenade, and if you shoot it with the explosive railgun it explodes with more force and damage than just adding the two together. You can also parry your own coins, which hitscans them into the closest enemy, at which point they bounce off and you can shoot them to combo even further. Did you riddle an enemy with nails and then shoot them with the electric railgun? Damage boost because the nails are conductive. There are so many paths you can take from weapon to weapon, each with tactical benefits. And you can learn them all just by accident because the game pushes you into accidents.
So, you've finally completed the main campaign (or what exists so far because early access), crushed Gabriel beneath your metal heel, but there's secret bosses. But if you want to fight them, you need to git gud. THIS is where the game demands the best of you. Go back to the stages again, this time with your expanded skillset and moveset. Beat every stage in the first act with 100% kills, S rank time, and no mid-stage checkpoint restarts, and you'll get to face it. The game is no longer demanding your best, it demands better. And then it demands better again.
But okay, maybe the game is too hard and you're not having fun. There's a robust system of difficulty modes, minor assists, and major assists. Difficulty modes and and minor assists (like colorblind options, enemy outlines, a few other things like that) do not affect stage rankings, but major assists (like turning down the game speed) do. But even if you play on the easiest difficulty with the game speed turned down to a crawl, you can still beat the campaign, because it's a goddamn single player game, who cares if you aren't playing "correctly" as long as you're having fun.
The amount of "I'm bored/frustrated/not having fun anymore" off-ramps are slim to none, but the amount of on-ramps to challenging yourself to get better is huge. No matter your starting skill level, you can start the game there and get better and better until your wrists hurt.
I want that out of a fighting game. I want to want to git gud, not have to git gud. Give me the tools to enter the game at my existing skill level and then improve from there, until I hit a baseline understanding of the mechanics. Then, if I want to get better and look at frame data and the meta and whatnot, I can look at these things with an instinctual understanding.
And NONE of this would affect the experience of FGC veterans, other than pump fresh blood into the community.
One mode i REALLY LOVED in Fighting games
Are the survival modes where you gain attributes/buffs (and sometimes debuffs)
Like BlazBlue’s Abyss mode or
Persona’s survival mode (or whatever it was called)
Would be cool to add stupid things to it
Like bigger head, hands,... Aesthetic changes
Or even stupid/funny gameplay mechanics
I miss those things
Made the game less competitive and just more casually enjoyable
Great video dude! Seeing this is your first video, you killed it in terms of quality.
I agree that this generation is becoming better for new people to get into. I got into fighting games about 2 or so years ago about when Strive was getting closer to launch. I ended up accidently stumbling upon a YT upload of Big Blast Sonic from Xrd, became intrigued from the series after seeing Strive was set for release later that year, and bit the bullet I had been holding onto for years with my child-self and very early teenage years of me not being good enough to understand them and not being able to do quarter circles, and bought GGXX on Switch. Thanks to some good YT videos, I actually quite quickly learned the mechanics and got somewhat decent. Then I couldn't stop and got way more fighting games after that. I hope that with the upcoming wave of awesome fighters like SF6, that more casual players will hop into traditional fighters and join the wider fgc
That is my hope as well :)
I'm deffo a fighting game enjoyer, but I really struggle to play them for long period of time mainly due to the points listed here, especially the one about which moves are safe or are not safe on block. That's just the tip of the iceberg! You have to watch vids about characters, use docs etc like you said.. it's a bit mad.
You have worded it so perfectly and it's so strange how this sort of information hasn't been implemented considering the fact that moves have these properties. Okay great we know the frames, but why can't a move say "unsafe on block" or however best it could be displayed or detailed to the player.
Someone like me, I'd probs massively benefit from having a friend or know someone who's huge in FGs but I don't so I find it all very overwhelming and then it's like how else do you learn, reading text dumps or consuming hours of vids trying to just scratch the surface.
This really does come down to the classic "what can Fighting games do to gain massive popularity?"..."work" AAA fighters really have been "if it worked for SF4 then that's all we need" for quite some time and i'm really happy to finally see the genre break away from that. I love your point on visual indicators for frame data which would help fighters ALOT of new people, show don't tell y'know. This is absolutely fantastic for a first video, the 3D & 2D art and editing is solid. It also helps your avatar looks really cool for a snowman lol.
getting to your pushback argument:
well tbh when a move is safe and he's right in my face thats a free chance for me to pressure or mix, so taking that away also takes away somemindgames playing imo. the best thing to me tbh is to make obvious what moves you can punish with some kind of stagger animation on block like when you block a hellsweep or something like that
I grew up with fighting-games in the arcades and eventually on console, where I had a fair number of high-school and college buddies who inspired me to get better and remain competitive. Those were some of the best years of my life.
But as we all got older, moved farther away, and had to rely on online multiplayer for our matches, everyone I knew began to focus on adulting and couldn't spare the immense time investment required to get good. And one by one, we all dropped off. I also can't stand lag, nor deal with opponents I can't see eye to eye, so online play with strangers was a no go for me.
This might be another limiting factor for fighting games.
Fighting games are hard because to stick with them you need the right mindset, especially the more skilled you become.
If you're an online warrior, at a certain point you can't just turn on a FG and mash, you actually gotta use your brain, against a singular opponent, that is actively trying to read you. With no one to blame but yourself when you lose. It's hardly a casual experience at that stage and is stressful and cumbersome for most; thats why they're hard and people abandon them for other team based multi-player games.
It takes much less time and effort to understand the concept of "shoot and don't get shot", and do it relatively well, than it does to pick a character you like, learn the moves, learn your opponents moves (and other match ups), then learn when and how to apply strategies to win.
At their core, FGs just take more effort to learn and play which adds to them being hard. I think it's disingenuous to say they aren't, especially when videos like these ironically highlight every single reason why FGs are hard in the first place.
You make many great points and I agree that fighting games should become more than just 1 v 1 fights online but I feel like recently fighting games have been trying to correct this such as the main game for DNF Duel having a replayable story mode, survival mode, and challenges in the tutorial, Kof XV having story mode with multiple endings for different characters, Soul Calibur 6 having a main story, character side stories, and Libra of Soul that let's your CAC go on a journey with different characters, and Guilty Gear Xrd had a mutiple modes while also having mini games after completing the detailed tutorial mode.
I would like for fighting game developers to expand on the content they have instead of making the game simpler which is disappointed me with the change from Xrd to Strive and again I agree that Fighting games need to grow but it seems in recent years developers are making more of an effort to appeal to casuals and I think Street Fighter 6 will make an impact on the genre.
This video is amazing dude. Can't wait to see new content from you
yo this is so high quality, excited to see you grow king :)
Very solid points made here, fighting games have had these problems for far too long,seemingly being tied to streetfighter2 in some shape or form for all these years.
Although as you touched on, the comming generation might change that, with Arcsys putting rollback in all their games , others like Snk/Tekken following suit and Street fighter 6 is headed by 2 streetfighter fans who are pumping the game with modes(off&on-line)
Future is looking bright for vs fighters, gread video Ardrid
I think honestly no matter how many parts a game may get right or wrong, new players are always going to be hard to get in for one huge reason. Getting players in the door, that's why we see games like dragon ball z and multi versus explode on release, they are getting players in the door with name recognition. That is why all my hope is in Project L to get people in the door to this new genre to them, once they want to move on or try something new they will stay in and be apart of the fgc. I mean just ask the strive players how many of the came from dragon ballz, and how many of them branched out
btw great video, just wanted to toss in my two cents
My problem with fighting games is that 'gitting gud' in them takes time I don't have. Same as in Dark Souls.
phenomenal vid, putting my thoughts into words im def sharing this around
tysm! :)
Gotta say, for a first video this is really good and quite informational for people who don't know about fighting games and is also a great encouragement for people who know about em.
PS: Just wish you could put the music in the description, but I do understand it's a hassle.
Half of the music in this video is from the Virtua Fighter 3tb OST, some others are "Unwavering Resolve" , "Hubris (piano version)" and "Confrontation" from SoulCalibur 2, then theres "Formless Like Water" from TEKKEN 5. I think thats all of them? I'm going off memory
I might put a little thing in the corner of the screen when a new song comes up in my next video now that you've mentioned this, makes it easier.
EDIT: "Evil Reborn" and "Guided By Wind" from SC2 are also in the video, I just remembered.
@@Ardrid_ Damn, the only ones I didn't recognize are Virtua fighter but loved your use of the Tekken OST.
Thank you for replying. Happy growing and keep up the good fight, brother!
i can see the work that went into this so props m8, fun watch, good voice
You have been blessed by the algorithm, nice video
Probably one of the best ways to explain bad game design is to remind fighting game players is that its a game. To them the value is in learning, but my question after this video (instead of nodding along awkwardly) is, "how would explaining basic mechanics in an intuitive and fun way ruin your fun?"
As a fighting game player I wouldn’t mind that, but that is not the problem. The problem is being intuitive playing against someone else. Just like any competitive(pvp,moba,team,etc) game the winner is usually going to have the most fun rather than the loser. I’m not saying you’re not gonna have fun even if you lose, but if you ain’t willing to learn certain things on your own while taking some serious L’s I don’t think competitive games are for you no matter how fun you make basic mechanics.
Also I don’t think reminding fighting game players who play these games with a passion that it’s just a game is not a good way to explain bad game design. If anything it would piss them off or they won’t listen. I think a better way would be to keep the old stuff while bringing in new designs that newcomers would enjoy. Keeping the game fresh while not messing up the foundation. Just my thoughts.
All of my friends are starting to get into guilty gear strive with their only fighting game being smash ultimate. This video perfectly describes my feelings towards fighting games as I am really into them but the skill ceiling feels way too high when it shouldn’t
Guilty gears skill floor is really low. It's way easier than even ultimate. In ultimate, every interactions frame data is different depending on minute spacing details. Add in the 7 frame lag (way more for online) and you're left with a great party game but a terribly inconsistent game for competitive play. Compared to gg, ult just has way less casual players which is why it feels harder.
Learn one punish combo you can spam in neutral. Learn one wallbreaker combo. That's all u need.
Really hope the new generation will make it possible for me to get into fighting games. Have been admiring them from afar for a while now. But excel sheets of moves and no intutitive entry into the games just puts me off time and time again. I play games to enjoy myself, not to grind out moves in exhausting and unintuitive ways, just so I can be able to have a decent match where I know what I'm doing.
So fingers crossed for the next gen fighting games :)
I disagree with most of this video.
1.) You said that online play has been perfected mostly outside of fighting games. That's not true at all. You bring up Ultimate, but that's Nintendo as a whole. Even Super Mario Makers online play is worst than any fighting game I've played, and that's just a platformer. BHVR's Dead By Daylight has awful online capabilities. Even Shadowverse, a TCG has iffy netcode. You mention FPSs like they're the pinnacle of online play, but Apex, Battlefield, PUBG, and COD have all had and have connectivity issues. Online play is something that no one has perfected, and most likely wont be for a long time. Using that to the detriment of fighting games, while making it seem like every other genre is at some sci-fi tech level of online play is disingenuous.
2.) Being expected to just "know" things is weird. Fighting games are a series of real-time trial and error. You don't have to know frame data to find out if a button is safe. You can and will learn if it's safe by using the button in different scenarios and finding out if your opponent can punish you or not. That's the core of the gameplay. The most base level, that doesn't even factor in the possibility that a button can be safe in one matchup, and not safe in another. Additionally, you can tell players point blank "this button isn't safe", but that's not exactly useful information in a game like BBCF where every move can be RC'd and negate the frame data and all of preconceived safety or risk of a button. You can't expect to be handheld throughout the learning process. You're expected to fail, and learn from experience because frame data and visual markers only go so far.
2a.) You bring up Strives counter hit aesthetic, and praise it for being so; yet fighting games almost always denote to the player when there's a counter hit. BBCF has a visual marker on the screen, and an auditory cue as well. SAMSHO, SF, SC, AH, UN, and KoF all do that as well.
3.) The lack of content is truly a null point. You don't buy a fighting game to not play a fighting game. That's like complaining than FPS games don't have non-FPS content. Would you criticize Apex for not having a card game like Gwent built in? Not to mention a lot of fighting games have tried adding additional content already, and the truth is it doesn't hold casual attention. Smash's Subspace Emissary, BBCF's Abyss Mode, SC's variety of RPG-like modes, the volleyball, bowling and other nonsense modes you've listed prove it. They've all be tried before, but the fact is that the development time spent on that content doesn't translate to player retention; because you don't play a fighting game to not play a fighting game.
Fighting games have a small subset of players not because the games are bad, the online is bad, the content is lacking, or the information is too vague. It's because fighting games *are* hard. When something is competitive, and 1v1; no amount of hand-holding will lessen the gap between players. That's why mobas and other competitive genres can succeed where fighting games can't. You have variables that can determine the outcome of the game outside of yourself. You can get carried by your team in a moba or fps. RNG can cause you to win or lose in TCGs. Fighting games don't have that luxury by design. And no amount of visual indicators, side modes, rollback, frame data or any other factor will allow someone who doesn't play the game often to beat someone who does. And that's exactly how it should be. If a player finds enjoyment out of the challenge of git gud, then they'll enjoy the genre. If a player doesn't, then it's not for them and wont ever be. And there's nothing wrong with that.
0:38 "... but despite this, on... line multiplayer..."
The video had to buffer for a split second, and I thought it was a joke that you made.
I replayed it just to make sure, and get the correct time, but then it didn't happen again. If I had been drinking something I probably would have spit it out despite my best efforts. I laughed so hard I coughed.
Amazing video. My only gripes are that I feel Guilty Gear is still lacking in a few of the features stated, and I don’t think it’s fair to say Tekken 8 will have everything necessary just based on SF6 (at least from launch). Let’s wait and see before we start praising it
This is an excellent first video. I think you are discounting technique and execution, but all of those issues are real.
Except the counter hit thing. I can't think of a game that doesn't let you know when you've counter hit your opponent, at least not for a decade. There's an emphasis on cleaner GUI and there's a trade-off between that and the in your face visuals of Guilty Gear Strive. I personally am not a fan, but that's a preference.
This is a good video, however there also should be a reminder that every innovation people have wanted for years has been in indie fighting games.
For example, although there's no online in it, Duels of Fortune and Schwarzerblitz has a ton of missions for a single player content and a toggle for stage hazards
The visual+/- on block has been in Fantasy Strike and Merfight
Cross play in Mighty Fight Federation and Power rangers
And innovative and unique fighting games like mega knockdown, beasts of mystery, Yomi Hustle, and moonatics
So I'm not too big a fan of the whole "a new type of fighting game is finally here" when it's been around for a long time
That is very true; Games like Skullgirls, Fantasy Strike, Power Rangers BFTG, Rivals of Aether and others have done a lot for the genre, and have innovated in many ways that shouldn't be left unpraised.
However, I feel like the main difference between these games and a game like Street Fighter is reach; A game like Skullgirls simply isn't going to reach as many people as a new Street Fighter, Tekken or any fighting game that is or is based on an IP that has been established for decades.
When Them's Fighting Herds has a Singleplayer RPG mode where the battles are standard fighting game battles (atleast I think thats what it has?), it does mean a lot. When Street Fighter 6 does it, though, many more people are going to notice both inside and outside of the FGC simply because Street Fighter is a much more established name that everyone sees as the standard for where the Fighting Game Genre is in terms of standing (it did pretty much invent the genre, after all.)
Indies can definitely set trends and lead by example (PUBG and Minecraft before they were bought by big corporations shows this very clearly), but 90% of the time its the big players that people look to as the standard for the genre, so I think its especially potent now that the biggest names in the fighting game genre are adopting these kind of philosophies, rather than indie fighters that don't have as much capital to get their name in front of people as say, Capcom or Bandai Namco.
Still you raise a very good point though, and thanks for watching my video :)
The problem is that alot of people don't have fast thumbs plus it's hard to get the combos correct and get the timing down.
You don't really those in order to do well in fighting games. Do they help...yes. However those things won't do you any good if your foundation is fucked up.
@@Drebin1989 button mashing isn't fun nd the only game u can use bases moves to win is mk.these games are hard I enjoy watching the real ones play
@@bellzo5 that wasn't what I referring to when I said foundation. By that I mean blocking, the use of throws, sweeps and basic anti airs with the occasional pokes.
2 You're wrong...you can win with basic moves in other fighting games besides MK. I know that because I've done so on several occasions whether it be couple of Street Fighter games or Fighting EX Layer which is very easy to do. Samurai Shodown is another game where its easy to do.
Not only have I done it but my cousins have done it as well as someone that I know from Twitch has done so in a local tournament for a fighting game that he never played before.
@@Drebin1989 you most likely play fighting games. I don't anymore because of I cant play the effectively. Like bftg is the last one ive done. It was fun but unless your doing combos and not playing so basic you won't survive online or against the cpu
@@bellzo5 i play fighting games but that ain't the only games I played.
How are you gonna sit there and say that when I JUST told you that me, my cousins and some other people. You absolutely can survive off of basic moves against the cpu. Did not take the time to exploit them mfs when you did play fighting games?
You can also survive online using basic moves. You be surprised at the amount of people struggle against players that know how to use those basic moves well. You can even play mind games with that shit. They also come in super handy once you have your opponent figured out. Hell my playstyle utilizing mostly basic moves and very small combos using mostly basic moves.
explaining unintuive game mechanics at hands of the Tekken 8 trailer with Kazuya's F->F->1 and Jin gettin pushed back so hard at the 11:00 min mark and you immediately being like
*"yeah, I ain't gon punish that cuz my opponent is at frame advantage here"*
is really amazing and showcases exactly what you mean with saying games should be more prone to actually explain to their players some core certain type of mechanics and when to use 'em or to at least give 'em an idea rather than just leaving it completely to them to figure everything out and combo and come in with the insensitive initially of wanting to dive deep into and understand everything ingame, said game has to offer! :) ⚡
Dude i appreciate the effort put into making a video like this. But just the opening statement is too much. Fighting games ARE harder than either shooters or MOBA's under most resonable definitions of what "hard" is. The only point towards the argument that fighting games are not the hardest genre is that theoretically, the skill ceiling of Shooters and Moba's have an infinitely high skill ceiling, just as fighters have (We CAN go into theoretical edge cases here, like the proposed equilibrium draw some have theorized about for e.x melee fox) But there's not much point.
That is because for the practical reasons of actually playing these games the sheer amount of knowledge required, timing demands as well as mental strain and pressure will make it so that for all intents and purposes, fighting games are the most demanding genre of competitive video games. Period.
I respectfully disagree. I don't think fighting games are harder at all compared to an FPS game. People tend to make the point that aiming is easier than doing a quarter circle motion so therefore shooters are easier, but there are countless videos online of "My Grandad played Counter Strike for the first time" where they literally don't understand the concept of aiming and moving at the same time; it may be a simpler mechanic, but the amount of precision required to even be competent at it is honestly insane.
The main difference between fighters and shooters is that shooters have had tons of modes and great online both in terms of netcode and user experience since Quake. If you have more ways to play the game, the more familiar you're going to get with the mechanics, so the simple act of aiming in an FPS has become more of a standard way of moving that everyone has experience in, and that aiming style has been used in tons of other genres that aren't really shooters. In Fighters, you are asked to learn an arbitrary motion input that aren't used in any other game genre to do certain moves, so its understandable when people aren't as experienced with them as aiming.
And shooters and MOBAS require a huge amount of knowledge, including map layouts, team comps, correct positioning, bullet spread of weapons, the abilities of all the characters (League has over 100 of them with a lot of them having abilities that need entire paragraphs to explain how they work.) Just like fighting games, one wrong split second decision can determine the outcome of the match so I don't particularly see how they are so much harder than any other genre. Games like Elden Ring and God of War Ragnarok were some of the biggest titles this year and its remarkable how many systems and concepts it takes directly from fighters (some people even joke that the Souls series is just a singeplayer fighting game). If people can en masse learn these two games, then I think traditional fighting games aren't that far outside of their reach.
@@Ardrid_ I think a big contributor to that feeling that fps are easier than fighting games is that they tend to be team fights, so you can win even if you're absolutely terrible at it. If I have to compare the two genres you can say FPS are effectively a bunch of "shorter rounds and matches" and it's easier to get back into another "match". Also knowing the attitude of some gamers it wouldnt surprise me that not having someone else to blame for your loss may be a factor :p
Congrats man,honestly impressed given that it is your first video!
On the future of fighting games: I'm so excited for project L. Full priced AAA games are crazy expensive where I live so having a F2P fighting game based on a popular franchise means finally more people will be willing to give fighting games a shot. I'm not saying that all fighting games should be free to play but having a popular one as an option could be great for the genre.
The reason I find them hard is more a me problem but it’s the pressure. I try my best to learn, I train in practice, I watch tutorials but I can’t execute it. I’m just scared of embarrassing myself. I want to be able to play KI or guilty gear but it seems absolutely terrifying and overwhelming for someone who doesn’t play a lot of fighting games.
Only those who experience the genre can make that claim. Being a world class athletic isn't hard either. Until you realize you can't even hold a candle to them in a race.
Great Video and Great Points! Keep up the great work Ardrid!
You're never gonna get rid of unintuitive mechanics if you keep designing around frame data and hitboxes. How is someone supposed to know that hitting the air around a character is as good as hitting the character themselves? How is someone supposed to know the difference between 12f move or an 11f move? And how is someone supposed to know if something is +1 or +2? Why can this characters jab punish this move mine can't? Without simplifying frame data every one still has to look at spreadsheets.
How is someone supposed to know the difference between all of those? Trial and error.
If you hit a button, and your opponent punishes you; you don't need to know the frame data. You just learned the button is unsafe in that situation. Don't repeat your mistake and you'll improve. That's also this crazy concept known as "playing the game".
How is someone supposed to know the maps in an FPS? How is someone supposed to know how much bullet drop a particular gun has in an FPS?
How is someone supposed to know when they have all-in potential in a moba? How is someone supposed to know lane matchups in a moba?
How is someone supposed to know item locations in a Metroidvania? How is someone supposed to know boss mechanics in a Souls-Like? How is someone supposed to know ghost patterns in Pac-Man? How is someone supposed to know meta decks in TCGs? How is someone supposed to know which jump pattern are coming next in a rhythm map? How is someone supposed to know what spray patterns are going to happen in a bullet hell? How is someone supposed to know how to fit in rotations in MMOs? How is someone supposed to know which items drop from which enemies in ARPGs.
One of my favorite fighting games was Soul Calibur 3, it had so much single player content, A main story mode that worked like a "Choose your own Adventure" book, A secondary story mode for your custom character that played like a strategy RPG, your custom characters would level up and learn new fighting styles, and a bunch of other stuff. When I played Soul Claibur 4 and saw that they removed pretty much ALL of the single player content that I loved in SC3, I stopped playing Soul Calibur games. I'm glad to hear that some of the newer fighting games are adding more single player stuff!
Probably gonna get a bunch of shit for this, as I generally do, but fighting game AI needs to be fixed. I know it's easy to beat the AI, but it isn't fun doing it, having to cheese them over and over with the same dumb garbage because it's the only thing that works.
Thank God you mentioned this, I'm tired of SNK nostal fans asking for the same SNK Boss Syndrome bullshit instead of asking for a functional IA that doesn't rely on reading your inputs.
If fighting games had an AI opponent that doesn't rely on reading your inputs, nobody wouldn't learn anything while playing them. Believe me, I wouldn't enjoy a fighting game if the AI opponent was trash in the intelligence department. So, yes, please input read me AI, I wouldn't want to get away with everything in a match against you. Let's treat it like it's chess, at the end of the day. 😆
@@shinsmoke nobody learn anything fighting with that kind of IA, the only thing that teaches you it's to cheese that thing, the input reading reliance just leads you to unreal scenarios where the machines reacts to everything, way faster than a human could, It doesn't really teach you to deal with pressure because it's too busy waiting you to do something, at the end of the day you got a lot of useless skills that just works with that kind of IA's and maybe with clueless players
@@sebastiandelvillarmontoya1447 It can teach you how to play smart against other players in general. Like for example, it'll teach you how to anti-air your opponent by doing it to you. And if you're dumb enough to fall for it over and over again, then that's your fault for not learning from your mistake. Another example, it can teach you how to counter by doing it to you over and over again. Of course, as a player, you cannot react as fast an AI opponent, but you can still react to various attacks once you adapt to it, at the end of the day.
@@shinsmoke You can't really use counters against an IA because it's reading your inputs, and again most of the thing you learn are useless against real opponents, the anti-air thing it's a rare scenario since most of that AI's just sit on their asses untill you move, again they teach to cheese them, not to play smart against real players.
I will always be a massive fighting game guy. I first got into it when I found this game called 'pocket fighter nova', which was a chibi version of street fighter which some dark stalker characters in them. I didn't even know what street fighter was then. I grinded the hell out of the game, only to further reach out to other games. Then I found out the original inspiration behind the game. I was able to find a free street fighter 2 on browser that would only allow arcade mode. Then I got into Tekken and actually got invested in it and looked up videos to learn the game in depth. I'm not a good gamer, but I love this genre. I really want it to succeed and become more mainstream. The game needs:
- more single player content to make the learning process a fun one not a hard one
- better netcode
- make finding matches easier and quicker
Criminally underrated channel. Keep the content going!
The point on making frame data visually clear is an interesting one, and I'm glad to see devs have been tackling it. Guilty Gear Strive also made something similar with how they reworked their frame data and Instant Block to use spacing as a visual indicator, so it would not surprise me if Tekken did the same. Guard Crush-type animations are also interesting ways of showing something is plus (in theory, if only they could keep that consistent).
SF6 also got rid of most plus-on-block normals, and now the pressure also seems to be built around spacing instead. Seems to be the way forward in the near future, although I'd prefer something simpler that didn't immediately affect gameplay itself (like Fantasy Strike using hitspark/blockspark color to show if something is very plus, slightly plus, slightly negative or very negative/punishable).
Wait make frame data visual during the match?
@@BecomingYourIdeal Not literally (although there is a Tekken mod where the numbers appear instead of the hit/block sparks, and it's useful for learning).
I was thinking in terms of character animation during blockstun (think GGST when the characters reel back from guardbreak moves) or VFX (like the different-colored hitsparks from Fantasy Strike).
The issue with them being hard is more because they're hard for no good reason. No other genre out there uses QCMs, and it's very hard to parse when you should be using any given type of attack even at the most basic level of pressing just one button. (Smash is a good comparison, it's absurdly easy to explain where every normal fits in on a general level and even specials that work similarly usually have the same input on a cast-wide level)
But yeah that's not the biggest factor, and personally, I believe this genre will forever be doomed by a lack of content and features until we get more games that lean into a second genre like SF6 is gonna do with open world or really invest on big storylines like the recent MKs. (that's leaving aside stuff like DBZ fighters which lean into big non-game franchises)
We need stuff to do to justify all the effort it takes to play the games with minimal competence
quarter circle motions are the EASIEST inputs ever, there's even buffers now to help you do moves so you dont have to be as clean. That honestly sounds like a big skill issue on your part rather than the game being hard for the sake of it. If you think a simple quarter circle is hard you should see some of SNK's inputs that are ACTUALLY dumb to do
@@Gensolink My B, I was dumping every fancy special move input under the same term.
I can actually do the easy ones just fine, not super consistently because I don`t practice, which is a red flag in of itself: what genre even demands practice for basic inputs?
Even the simpler inputs are nonsensical and unintuitive. This is most obvious when you look at the FG characters in smash. How does Ryu does the Shoryuken? Special + Up. It's a special move that goes up, of course that's how you do it.
Why would I want to move forward, down, and forward-down for a move that goes straight-up? Nonsense. You could never intuit the command just by looking or by applying basic logic without prior knowledge of this very specific genre.
Either way this is all NOT the main problem, even if everything on the controls side was smoothed out, properly explained, and fighters found a way to organically teach all of it... you still have the content issue
Uhh yeah they do. The Bayonetta games have plenty of motion inputs. Some of the sports games use QCMs. The Castlevania games have them. Even some of the Megaman games (most notably the Megaman Zero games and Megaman X Command Mission have them). Even some of the beat em ups like Final Fight 3 and Streets of Rage 3 had them.
@@Drebin1989 I said games, not genre. And nice try. A few games here and there don't change much, and you also generalize a few. Castlevania for example, there's several of them that don't have anything besides normal inputs, and even the ones that do you can play the game pretty normally without them because they're built around your basic attack and subweapons.
@@guedesbrawl it's more than just a few games here and there. A lot more. I just only named a few. Those motion input moves are also usually tied to your best and/or strongest moves and in some cases like the Bayonetta, they be in your action sequences at times. Those basic moves and subweapons tend to not serve you very well the further you get in the game.
I've been making a GDD for a platform fighter, and this information is going to help me out MASSIVELY! I'm glad I found this vid.
There’s no winning in the genre when it comes to point number 2. The vocal end of the fgc always complains about any Avenue of accessibility that’s not anchored to grinding.