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Why do we know so little about this British SMG? With firearms and weaponry expert Jonathan Ferguson
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 16 ส.ค. 2024
- Join Jonathan Ferguson as he brings you a quintessential What is this Weapon. This 'almost' bullpup design was created against the background of the looming war in Europe, drawing heavily on Italian sub machine gun designs.
But, it also features some unique features which range from the inventive to the downright useless.
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So despite my scepticism on the W.O. M.G. 03 mark, WO *does* stand for War Office - Soley were slapping WO nomenclature on their would-be trials weapons, which is something I've not seen before. So it's "War Office Master General of Ordnance [Dept] 3".
My first thought was that M.G.O.3 was pertaining to some subdivision of the War Office, but then I brushed this idea off as too wild. Turns out, It was really that. Thanks for keeping us updated, Jonathan!
so do i get half a curly wurly then ?
@@balthiousdire6795 only if I get the whole one for filling in all the blanks!
As you were describing this weapon I was thinking was it some attempt at a War Office requirement for a P.D.W. like weapon for lorry drivers/tank crews in the 1930's.
I was thinking that or weapons ordinance?🤔
Only Johnathan can be sat in front of a wall of EM-2s and be holding something more interesting than those.
And XL60's....
It's an almighty flex though....no-one else has more than 1 EM-2...there are 13 on that rack alone...
Mention of a "Beretta arm obtained on loan from the Soley Armament Company" appears in correspondence from the Chief Inspector of Small Arms in January 1933. He described it as "quite promising", but that it was "not for sale". (Soley actually did make some guns directly on commission of the CISA so maybe this was built for him.)
The design work on this gun was almost certainly done by a Belgian gunsmith, Edgard Grimard, who was partnered with the Soley Company in the 1930s. He also designed a modified Lewis gun which they produced.
The ventilated upper handguard on this weapon is heavily reminiscent of another Italian submachine gun which was available around the same period, the Armaguerra Mod. 1935. I suspect Grimard was pretty well familiarized with Italian subguns.
Also, I should add, I don't think this gun was designed with the intent of creating a more compact version of the Beretta 1918/30. It's only about 60mm shorter; no effort has been made to shorten the receiver or barrel (in fact I think the barrel is actually longer on the Soley gun). I reckon this was more likely an experiment in ergonomic handling, or otherwise something completely frivolous.
Very interesting, thanks for sharing!
Very interesting, thanks James!
@@jameslawrence2446 Agreed, although as with the Viper, making the weapon slightly shorter is a benefit, in terms of balance if nothing else.
Part of the devilish plan to mount Cavalry on Ostriches. One hand for the rifle, one for the reins.
"War Ostrich Mg#3"
Would have been quite useful in North Africa.
Not really that far fetched 🤔
Genius!
A New York Times article of 1936 stated that Captain J. Ball of the Soley Arms Co. Ltd admitted paying US dealers to take a loss on war surplus weapons. Another record that I found on a well known search platform said that the company was accused of manufacturing the Berretta without a licence.
The wall of weapons behind Jonathan has to be his personal bull pup heaven
It's like a WW2 British UZI, as bizarre as it is cool haha
😊
After Actually watching I change my emoji to
🤮
shortening the barrel like a Sten gun would be great for urban ops
British love Czech designs even then. Uzi is based off of a couple Czech designs.
VZ 48: ;~;
I do love the fact that Jonathan has acsess to guns from every "What if?" ClockpunkSteampunk/Desilpunk/Cyberpunk game ever.
He is the Doctor Who of Brit Guns
That is... unique, to say the least. Looks like a bit of an ergonomic nightmare, but god damn it’s pretty
W.O is War Office - maybe a prototype made to fit a W/O specification (MG 03?) issued in that period of time.
That was what I was going to say.
Same thinking: War Office ‘Machine Gun 03’ as shorthand for a spec.
Yep. "War Office - Machine Gun 03" was what came to my mind.
or Master General of the Ordnance?
Nearly - it turns out (we are almost sure) Soley were slapping WO nomenclature on their would-be trials weapons. So it's "War Office Master General of Ordnance [Dept] 3".
Thanks very much, Jonathan and team. This looks exactly like the sort of weird design I might have expected to find in an odd corner at the Pattern Room, had I ever managed to visit there.
The upper and lower attachments to the butt might have been inspired by some of the hooked buttplates on Schuetzen style target rifles, to help keep the butt in a consistent place for more accurate shooting.
As others have speculated, placing the main shooting grip at more or less the centre of gravity may have been to make it easier to fire one-handed, except that its weight of 3.85kg isn't going to help much with that.
But never mind, this will also make it ideal for dual wielding in video games.
My guess is war office - machine gun 03
The same occurred to me but I've never seen a mark or abbreviation like that anywhere and this is not a machine gun by any stretch. Until the Sterling era an SMG was a 'Machine Carbine' in Britain.
Cheers Jonathan for mentioning the Viper in this video, agree the stock has that one handed sort of idea. I did my research project about the development of viper at the armouries as an intern back in 2011. Glad to know understanding the story has been useful for other projects all these years later.
War Office machine gun no 3 (3rd one made, possibly 2 missing or failed in testing)
As for the arms on stock,
What it could be for is mounted use, pulled in to shoulder while the other hand is holding the side of a vehicle, horse reins, handle on a motorbike, any number of uses.
beautiful smg in a way that almost looks futuristic especially for pre-ww2 sub guns
would have been very handy for paratroops
Bioshock
These videos are always a highlight of day
WO = War Office, MGO = Master General of the Ordnance, 3 , possibly third directorate (?)
and yes, I'm ex RAOC :) lol
You are spot on, well, as far as we can tell :) "War Office Master General of Ordnance [Dept] 3". Why the hell a civvie designer is bothering to slap that on their guns, who knows. I've never seen anyone else do that.
Might I suggest Standard, Bullpup and 'pistol type' (I know there are lugers and some other pistols with weird 'standard' layouts - but...) as a breakdown to clearly distinguish things like this and the UZIs which are so clearly more 'machine pistol' in their grip than standard SMG or Bullpup types?
1:20 The use of magazine in the pistol grip at this early date is truly remarkable! The date puts this gun whole five years ahead of the first Soviet and Italian designs of this type, and a decade before the first truly successful one, the Czechoslovak SA vz. 48.
1:49 How can one resist such an invitation?! My wild guess would be that W.O. means simply the War Office, while M.G.O.3 might refer to some requirement pertaining to machineguns and ordnance (or maybe, 'machineguns, other' in the reverse nomenclature of the day) issued by it.
5:33 A dreadful opening for mud ingress, incidentally. Makes me think that it would be one of the first things noted during the trials.
11:29 Isn't the true prototype of this design a type of bayonet used on the Mod. 91C Carcano cavalry carbine? The usefulness of it on a gun as short as these two is highly debatable, though, with people like Matt Easton demonstrating its limitations as opposed to the gun & knife/dagger weapon set.
With regards to the mag in the pistol grip, the Japanese were probably first; the experimental Nambu Model 1 used a grip-feed system as early as 1933. Possibly predating even that, there is an experimental SMG made for Austrian trials which uses this configuration, though the exact date and manufacturer are unknown (personally I reckon it's a Mauser design).
You're right that the folding bayonet was originally designed for the Carcano cavalry carbine. The Beretta guns just lifted from the Carcano, because the first Beretta automatic carbines were actually produced using recycled components.
@@jameslawrence2446 Now that you mentioned it, I seem to recall reading about this Nambu design. The Austrian trials you mention are those of 1930, am I getting it right?
As for the use of Carcano bayonets, I think more important than just using up spare parts (and to be honest, this is the first time I'm reading that Beretta actually did this) is the fact that the Mod. 91C carbines were employed by the intended users of the Beretta submachineguns during WW1, so it stands to reason to use the same system here for reasons of familiarity.
@@F1ghteR41 RE: the bayonets, the Italian 'moschetti automatici' were originally intended to have detachable Mod. 91 bayonets but were changed to have the cavalry style bayonet because they were assembled at the MIDA factory in Brescia, using many of the same components as the Carcano carbines made there.
@@jameslawrence2446 But the semi-auto Mod. 18/30 was made for the Carabinieri, who were issued with Mod. 91C from the very beginning.
@@F1ghteR41 It was actually originally designed for military use, however it failed to attract a substantial military contract. The primary users of the Mod. 1918/30 were paramilitary forces such as the Milizia Nazionale (Blackshirts) and Milizia Forestale (Forestry Police).
Needless to say, the situation around the Beretta automatic carbines is very complicated and most sources are full of myths and misconceptions about them. I can't really explain it in full here but I could direct you to some better sources if you are interested.
When fully deployed with that bayonet and stock it does look kinda... nice? Unusual and interesting for sure. Great vid!
I seem to recall that Soley modified the Lewis LMG with a Bren mag &removed the barrel shroud during the
Phoney war when the British Army felt it was outgunned by the Germans with their MG34s &MP 38s&40s. The Soley-Lewis was meant to be an automatic rifle. Maybe this is related?
Are you sure there shouldn't be some kind of cover (maybe bakelite that's cracked and been lost?) over the magazine to form a proper grip? In the closeup there's some kind of notch on the reinforcing plates on the side of the magazine housing that seems to serve no purpose, and there does appear to be quite a lot of open space around where the magazine goes through the trigger plate. There's not even a top lip forming a magazine well which seems really rather odd, and would surely lead to a lot of dirt ingress, even on a prototype.
It's perfectly possible.
I remember spending an inordinate amount of time, pre you tube/internet, designing a useful smg for British army for WW2. Had something fairly similar to this designed. The advantage of magazine in the grip for intuitive loading appealed.
Eventually I came up with a design like the beretta 1918, but using lee Enfield stocks. I thought the Tokarev round would give better range.
Also accompanying this was WW2 tech body armour. Essentially a doron chest and back piece similar to modern rifle plates but only effective against shrapnel and pistol ammo.
W.O.-M.G. clearly stands for:
War Ordnance - Ministry of Guns
03 stands for Oak Tree used for furniture among several other kinds of limber marked differently.
"war office" is much more likely.
@@FoodTrek fair enough
You are not far off. We believe it's "War Office Master General of Ordnance [Dept] 3".
I absolutely love viewing these videos that present to me, new and unusual, rare prototype experimental small arms, well done and please keep up the good work.👍
Those tabs on the stock are definitely for one handing. Love that the British always thought that was a good idea.
The tabs were for prone firing as well, perhaps primarily, especially with both extended.
@@spacewater7 I imagine that being called "the snake" because you are holding "two fangs".
i think americans tried this concept out in like the 50s or 60s, i believe the gun is called the hs10 and it was a shotgun intended for police to shoot from a moving car with one hand
@@blarpnarp yep, the HS10 was meant to be usable with one hand for things like opening doors or operating other equipment like flashlights or tear gas.
Background get 10 out of 10, a treat for the eye, cheers mate
This is me speculating mid video, but the stock kind of made me think could it be that it was intended to be a Paratrooper weapon or weapon to be used by people from an elevated position of some sort?
as mentioned in the video it seems to be made to in some way keep the other hand free, which could mean maybe it was also cause the person using it would be holding onto something else while using it.
I was wondering if the intention was for someone like a motorcycle courier or sidecar passenger where the other hand would be needed to hang on or operate the vehicle.
In fact, it's oddly symmetrical for a British weapon with that centralised cocking handle and the ejection port on the very top (both of which come from the parent Beretta) which makes me wonder if it was intended from the outset to be ambidextrous and enable offhand use with a single hand.
I'm even wondering having watched the full video if it actually started life as its current configuration or whether it was originally an actual Beretta 18/30 or at least a near 1:1 copy. The extended metal plate on the lower side of the stock joining the metal "buttstock" looks awfully like it might be covering up a cut out in the wood where the trigger would originally have been located, and looking at the new trigger guard, it really does look like an afterthought that's been shaped to fit the existing space, it's incredibly short for a combat weapon.
I thought it might be for stability when firing in the prone position, with the magazine in a pretty reasonable location for that purpose. Hence the ambitious sight range. It would be interesting to see if you can get your eye behind the sights any easier in that position.
And now I am starting my betting pool that this will get included in Sniper Elite 6 or DLC to SE5 at least. Wacky prototype, check. Weirdly plausible, check. "Exotic" looking, check. Yup, the guys at Rebellion must be wiping the floor from saliva right now.
I love how the Brit's came up with a whacky idea and said ,why not give it a go ! No one can say they didn't think outside the box and try new things.
"Weird Object - Mystery Gun" of course!
Isn't 9mm Glisenti loaded to the velocity of 9mm Parabellum literally just 9mm Parabellum?
My understanding is that 9mm Glisenti is just a reduced power 9mm Parabellum.
Good point, and sources agree.
en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/9mm_Glisenti
I thought exactly the same. Also absolutely idiotic to make a cartridge in the exact same dimensions as another but stronger one that is to powerful.
@@bengtjakobsson5177 It isn't that unusual. We even have the same today going the other way with commercially available +P+ loads that I wouldn't want to use with many early 9mm pistols.
Also consider the time, in 1910 9mm Luger was still a pretty niche thing that (as far as I am aware) only the German Army and Navy had adopted. And it didn't become very big commercially until post-WWI. So it was unlikely there would be a real risk that 9mm Parabellum gets anywhere in the Italian supply chain. And they had the pistol they wanted it just wasn't resilient enough with full powered 9mm Parabellum, so why not just download it?
@@bengtjakobsson5177 I'd think the opposite is true. The original loading of 9x19 isn't powerful enough, many people argue these days. Which is why.38 Super was developed (9x18 semi-rimmed case) in the '70s. There's no point to that one though, because 9 Largo was already equivalent (9x22.7mm, 1910s) but that doesn't $ell anything new and 'innovative' so they made .38 Super anyway.
@@spacewater7 .38 Super was developed in the 1920s as a high velocity alternative to .45 and .38 ACP by packing more powder into a .38 ACP case.
In the 1970s +P variants were brought isn't substantially better than +P and +P+ 9x19.
Looking at the rack behind you and having your book at home, I'd kill to get a closer look at the EM's
Jonathan... very nice, but any chance of seeing an EMC2? I am sure you have at least one in there!
WO for War Office, the name at the time for the MoD?
W.O. is definitely an abbreviation for War Office but it makes little sense in this context.
@@jonathanferguson1211 and MG doesn't fit any British nomenclature or if it is machine gun, any known WO requirement of the time (if 1938 is the date of production). And that length of barrel... It's a SMG if the spec is to be 'every feature is not to conform to what advantages an SMG has'.
@@domhogan7842 What about if it referred to the War Office Department of the Master General of the Ordinance - just wondering if the 0 is actually an O as it's the same symbol as the one in WO, so it's WO MGO 3 not WO MG 03. So "War Office, (department of) Master General (of the) Ordinance". That could link it to an intended use within artillery, engineering, or transport, all of whom make sense as potential recipients of an odd, one handed, compact carbine (or possibly ultimately an SMG).
And, I was wrong, it IS War Office! Well, almost certainly. For some reason it appears Soley were marking their prospective trials weapons "War Office Master General of Ordnance [Dept] 3".
@@jonathanferguson1211 wahey, I nailed it first try!
War Office - Machine Gun RFP 03
The pseudo hand position on the rear stock looks like it was intended to be used just like a rifle when bayonet training/fighting.
Would agree on the MG part if it were select fire, but it's semi only
Perhaps the folding stock stirrups are to help steady the aim while making those critical 500 yard shots with a 9mm.
/s, of course
I think i would call it a proto bulpup, gives me some ideas, might be bad ideas but ideas none the less😊
“Blimey! That’s one big Uzi!!”
12:19 comes with a phillips head screw driver attached, for disassembly and maintenance 😂
this man is so awsome❤❤❤ just love him
Leeds Armoury : How many EM's do you need?
JF: ALL OF them!!
With this gun, the Uzi and the Mac-10 as well as the numerous guns using the same style, we really need a name for them.
For one, they deserve their owwn category, and we shoulld somehow differentiate them from the regular and the bullpup builds.
I for my part think of them as the mag-grip build, as the magazine goes through the grip forcing a straight grip, which forces a rather uncomfortable looking hand position.
Sniper Elite devs: "WRITE THAT DOWN, WRITE THAT DOWN"
Maybe you could have a competition for the public to name some of those anonymous oddballs in your collection. I’m sure the results would be both entertaining and informative, what could possibly go wrong?
Great Stuff Johnathan ''
WO MG: War Office - Machine Gun? Actually, I like "Ministry of Guns" as mentioned below.
I suspect that the oddly shaped butstock (the pistol grip like part, not the shoulder supports) is for bayonet fighting, to both give a bit more reach, and a more conventional for the era hand positioning
it's odd looking but neat piece of history
I am curious where the term "bull pup" came from. Any suggestions?
I cover this in my book. It simply means a young bulldog. It fell out of usage in the 20th century but was still widely used and known in the 1930s-40s when it was coined in the US.
Never thought i'd discribe a gun as "uncanny valley".
I look forward to seeing it in the next WW2 shooter.
Genius ambidextrous gun.
I recall seeing a Lewis gun modified by Soley with a Bren like magazine on top and the helical return spring replaced.
It looks like a truck ran over an antique Schmidt Rubin, the driver felt bad about it, and tried to repair it with some stuff he found in a dustbin....there you go...good as new 🤣
I adore the look of the wood. It's like you lopped off the front of a long infantry rifle and gave it a skeletal magazine grip. It's so bizarre.
Some definitions of "bull pup" would include the Spencer and Evans rifles from the American Civil War and the period following it. (Magazine runs back to the butt-plate).
Not quite as the actions for the Spencer and Evans are ahead of the trigger.
hi, Jonathan !!!
this bullpup is an improved of beretta mod. 18 called "siringone", the magazine of beretta 18 is the same than this bullpup, the beretta 18 was a semiauto carbine improved from smg "Villar Perosa" ...
bye bye
👍👋
I really appreciate and respect the way you presented your [non-]bullpup assessment: state a reasonable argument and its supporting logic, without being dogmatic or dismissing other perspectives.
The Soley is a missed opportunity IMO. I've often thought someone should have adopted a (fixed-stock) Uzi-sized SMG in the pre-telescoping bolt era by simply putting a grip and trigger on e.g. a STEN magwell, and a buttplate on the endcap. It's cool to see real-world examples, but such a shame that they bulked it up with an absurdly long barrel, pointless "that's the way we've always done it!" stock wood behind the grip, etc. Shame as well that the reluctance to use elevated sights led them to use that spindly "stock" when a simple leather / bakelite pad (or even the bare receiver tube) could have provided a real cheek weld.
a bit similar to the 1918 french Ribeyrolles SMG (who was use in small number end WW1), but this british SMG is more exotic with he's semi bullpup design...
Interesting that they decided to make a compact version of the Beretta only for it to have the same overall length. Did they simply want one with a longer barrel without making a longer gun?
Would've been interesting to see a version that would've just been an Uzified Beretta.
Defining a bull pup, as having the magazine behind the grip would probably be a better working definition
I'm curious to know if the magazine is interchangeable or just similar. Johnathan didn't try stuffing it in the Beretta
I did, gingerly and off-camera :) It does fit, but it's tight...
@@jonathanferguson1211 tight fit it both then. Inconclusive :)
'W.O.' ... War Office ???? model 03
W. O. = War Office? That’s a thing in the UK, right?
The Beretta is a real beauty, which makes the Soley being such an ugly duckling so funny. It’s a shame that the SMG was such an afterthought for the UK in the immediate pre-war period.
I daresay whoever was responsible for this weapon learned a great deal from it, primarily about how _not_ to build a useful firearm.
Thank you for sharing!
Bit of a flex on the EM series of rifles
I wonder if W O M G 3 was a design contract / specification (like F.5/34 was the design specification the RAF issued for what became the Hurricane and Spitfire). The National Archives mark War Office documents with a WO prefix, so it could be War Office Machine Gun [specification number] 3? That may explain why there aren't many and it isn't stamped with an official 'name'.
With that curious buttstock, I can't help but wonder if this was conceptualized as either an officer's or a grenadier's firearm. That way they could fire while manipulating an explosive or giving 1 handed directions
Love stuff like this
it looks like something i would make in Blender while i was drunk XD
How many people can come out and say "I've created my own firearm definition" and have people take it seriously?
Well to be fair it was for the purposes of the book, but it does work, I think.
I'd SOOO see this gun in Gloomwood, jeez...
The folding "tabs" seem like they would create a nice springy shouldering surface to eat up recoil in their inward position, but that would hardly seem necessary on a 9mm and it doesn't explain the hinged aspect. Could it have been intended for a separate block to be wedged in to serve as a more traditional butt stock when compactness wasn't critical? I can picture it but hard to say if the length of pull would be too great for comfortable accurate shooting.
That almost looks like you would hold it with your right hand at the stock and your left hand on pistol grip using your left hand to pull the trigger.
I've heard of pre ww2 SMG trials held in UK that were supposed to have been prequisite for possible SMG adaptation for the British military. I've heard a story that the Suomi m/31 got the best points in the trials against other available options for license build SMG, but the start of the ww2 prevented any new sales from Finland, and other priorities game alo g with UK weapons needs.
Do you happen to have any information of such a SMG trials held in UK at late part of 30's (1938-40?)?
There were never formal competitive trials held prior to WW2 but many designs were tested by the Ordnance Board.
In 1939, the BSA-Király, a British-made Hungarian design, was submitted and seemed to be a very good proposition in both quality and cost, but was rejected without much elaboration. Later they tested a Suomi KP/31 with a quadruple-column casket magazine and considered applying the same idea to the Bren gun, but nothing came of it.
Almost immediately after the war broke out, the BEF made an immediate request to the OB for a supply of SMGs for informal field trials. The Thompson, Steyr-Solothurn, Suomi, and Hyde were all sent. The Suomi was preferred but only the Thompson could be acquired at short notice, even though it was the most expensive option by some considerable margin (£50 per gun). In February 1940 the OB ordered 450 M1928AC Thompson guns which were issued to the BEF and used in action prior to the Fall of France.
@James Lawrence thank you for the answer, that's the information I was looking after 🫡
Robin Soley of R Soley and Sons 🤣
Way cool👍🏼👍🏼
It has a part that goes up *and* a part that goes down?? Crazy
its like you gave someone from the time period a mac-11 or something an asked them to make something like it
Since its artillery that's part of the Royal Armouries collection (albeit on long term loan), will Mallet's Mortar ever covered on this channel?
Also at 6:23 I immediately noted "It's a shoulder thing that goes up!"
It's very possible! My Curator of Artillery is soon to appear...
If thats the Model 2, I'm really curious what the Model 1 was.
Obviously War Office. Presumably this is a prototype or proffer for procurement which entered a trial.
Wouldn't those tabs on the stock be used for hip firing the gun? something like the hook on the spas 12.
I don't care, I like it. 😂
It's torture seeing those EM 2's behind you.
WO-MG could be War Office Machine Gun?
they're actually the same length overall
Forgotten weapons are gonna be pissed.
A million rounds of 9mm were captured off the Italians in the Middle East. This was likely an attempt to produce something to use it with minimal development. The Sten must have been a better one.
Other than the stock it doesn't actually look too bad.. That stock is ridiculous though.
Well at a guess the WO stands for War Office and mg-03 probably machine gun number 3 but that is just a guess
I discounted War Office initially but I am now convinced it is - so it's "War Office Master General of Ordnance [Dept] 3".
War office Machine gun (version/type ) 03 ? if im right do i get a curlywurly ?
Well, sort out all the issues, (polish the design, put a decent stock on it, fix the magazine catch and fit etc etc), and it'll be better than the sten, if a bit more costly. Oh, and lose the bayonet.
uhh, so it got a longer barrel not for the ballistics but because they want to fit a bayonet on it?
On my rifles I took off the butt pad & put a loop of stiff webbing . Have you ever seen that done ? It keeps the rifle shouldered .
Very oddly, wierdly interesting. With proper development it had some promise.
"Buttless". According to my wife that makes me a bullpup 😭
The "War Office" guesses are intuitive, but I think it's likely this was originally made for the little-known postwar counterespionage agency W.O.O.C.(P).
Shoulder thingy that goes up. Lol