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The Khyber Pass franken-machine pistol, with firearms and weaponry expert, Jonathan Ferguson
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 19 ก.ค. 2022
- The Khyber region of Pakistan and Afghanistan is famed for its production of a variety of small arms ranging from the recognisable to the outright odd. This machine pistol was brought to the UK for analysis by the Pattern Room as it incorporates a number of interesting features that at first glance appear to be from famous weapons. Jonathan examines just where the inspiration for this hybrid machine pistol comes from.
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Abdullah at Khyber Armoury has kindly pointed out that this design is based on a Tokarev-inspired pistol that you can see in a video on the 'Multi Projects' channel, entitled "Rusty Gun Restoration"
Maybe, in terms of inspiration, you may look at the likes of:
- The Czechoslovakian Skorpion Vz. 61 (may have found its way in the area), different caliber, though
- The Vietnamese K-50M (same caliber)
- The Chinese Type 64 and Type 85 SMG's (which also have similar magazines), or eve the Type 80 pistol
Btw, the flash suppressor looks like one taken from a Russian SVD (Dragunov) rifle.
Your point on Machine Pistols and Stocks.. the Skorpion's a rather notable exception to that, isn't it? It's way too small to call a Submachinegun, yes?
That said, your sheer awesomeness is epic. I envy you your job, good sir, I would love your job, to be a professionally paid weapons history geek.
Additionally.. there's just a part of me that would love to build a semi-automatic version of that, it's a rather interesting concept.
@@sauragnmon the distinction "machine pistol = firing pistol calibers, machine gun = firing rifle calibers" seems a lot more useful to me anyway. SMG is a weird category and with how much modification is possible and done in these times, you could switch a gun from one category to the other just by putting different butts on it...
@@Ugly_German_Truths I think the number of 9mm SMGs makes that criteria hard to endorse.
It's nowhere near as black and white as "has a buttstock" or "fires pistol caliber", but personally I think "could I see a modern military professional firing this pistol style?". I.e. two hands on the pistol grip, rather than one each on pistol/foregrip. This puts something like the skorpion or MAC-10 in the pistol category, while an Uzi or MP9 is an SMG.
I think a lot of people take historians for granted but it is channels like this that give me the child-like “awe” factor when I learn new things. Thank you for taking the time for this video. Utterly fascinating.
Historian is a good description of Jonathan's work here on youtube. After recently hearing Mr Ferguson trained as an archeologist spotlights his expertise as Keeper of Firearms and Artillery.
Good comment,thank you.
☺
I believe Jonathan and also Ian...
do it out of a deep respect for posterity, and the value of chronicling the more obscure historical firearms.
Because just like each gun is a compromise of design elements, each gun also tells a story. And every one of those connect to important events that we all have a shared history with. In some ways the retelling of humanity's story. That's why this is relevant today.
Not all gun channels are the same...
And thank God for them, because so many are lost to everything from massive poorly managed warehouses swallowing them up to outright malicious fear addicts destroying them with no mind to the historical significance. The story's of these weapons are all deep reflections of the time and place they were created and their invaluable cultural puzzle peices.
Ditto.
I love Khyber pass arms. They are always so unique and quirky. You probably don't want to risk shooting them but their build quality and designs are pure curiousity fuel.
They have been buying up all of americas and europes manual machine tools. In the Kyber Pass vids I have seen they have bridgeports, van norman horizontals, and a line of hand laboreres. I find it strange how they all work on the ground rather than a bench or table.
Well not true sir their firearms are good enough for shooting safely. Yes the barrel quality is not the best so don't expect the rifling will survive for long . Not very accurate either But their weapons are good enough for shooting
@@Eluderatnight in our culture sitting on floor is preferred. We have floor sitting in restaurants, guest room, dining room, lounge, bedroom etc. Our schools have floor suiting setup too. This is why carpets are an essential part of our home. So sitting on the floor for long is not uncomfortable for us
@@danishtariq7473 have you fired any, how do you know ?
If they are dangerous to fire and haven't even been proofed then the build quality isn't satisfactory even on that basic level.
Always a fan of "we'll make do with what we have" manufacturing. Always creates really interesting weapons.
To me, it looks like someone saw a VZ61 Skorpion in a movie, thought 'that looks really cool' and tried to cobble something that looked like one together out of a bunch of spare parts they had lying around. There's obviously C96 and AK parts involved, but the flash hider looks like an M14's and I swear there are a few hints of 1911.
Yeah - my first thought when seeing it was someone had seen a Skorpion and tried to imitate it.
I was thinking the flash hider was more M-60ish.
I think maybe you're missing a big point here which is that this gun is entirely shop made from scratch. There are no AK or C96 parts involved, nor are there m14 or 1911 parts. In the Khyber pass they don't make things like this as one offs usually, it's as a full fledged gunsmithing/manufacturing business. It's not like some guy tinkering in his home shop on the weekends.
The flash hider is very similar to the one on an FN49
Flash hider reminds me of the SVD Dragunov, which would be known in the region.
I'm certain the idea of this style of gun is that someone thought the Broomhandle Mauser was really cool, but that they could make something cheaper and simpler that does the same thing.
Given how popular 7.62mm Tokarev is in the region, particularly in Khyber Pass, I would be willing to assume that MOST of these are made for that cartridge, rather than the 7.63mm Mauser. Of course, some ammunition which is produced there is also somewhat weak.
That's true. Most popular calibre here in Pakistan is 7.62×25 tokarev, 7.62×39, 7.62×54r , .303 and 8mm. 90% of guns made here are made for these calibres. However, on request they for sure can make in other calibres too.
If you have seen how they produce ammunition you'll understand that the pressure is probably low and inconsistent.
@@Willy_Tepes I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt, guns made there in recent years look more refined and nicely put together, potentially the ammunition making has improved.
I figure also this is the kind of market where it'll really depend on where you get what product, some guys are not going to be as good at what they do as others. I've heard of smiths there who will make fine hunting shotguns, the old fashioned double-barreled kind, and they do it so well and put such effort into it that there are long waiting times for their services.
It's a little ragtag and "orky" at times, but it's also a competitive market, even with lax safety standards, having a reputation of unwanted explosions is bad for sales.
@@0neDoomedSpaceMarine That is basically the same mechanism that makes street food in Asia safe.
I was wondering who would be making a cartridge as old as 7.63x25, even there. Lighter loaded 7.62 Tokarev makes a lot of sense as that’s really the same thing as I understand it.
I love all that is khyber pass, from the weird bolt action AK in 9mm mauser to beautiful handguns. I would love a video going through all the khyber pass firearms
*7x57mm mauser
@@TragicTester034 thanks fam
@@azkrouzreimertz9784 no problem my dude
I am lucky enough that I have most of the Khyber pass handguns all safe and properly functional.
@@mansurmansoor2862 upload vid/pics? I dont care about the quality, would just be fun too see these rare firearms
It was too bad the video was so dark and we never got a well illuminated close up of the weapon. I love guns like this.
I have most of the Kyper pass handguns - functional
I hope we get more shooting demos with these videos in the future. I really enjoyed the martini and hk recent videos.
Dont count on it. These are all museum pieces in a UK museum.
I would be willing to test it with some light loads of 7.63mm Mauser
@@rebralhunter6069 with an active shooting range in the building
@@samholdsworth420 with way more safety regulation and red tape that would make it quite difficult for them to shoot these very shodily made Khyber pass guns for a pretty small TH-cam channel.
@@rebralhunter6069 He's demonstrated some guns with live ammunition, though I don't think he'll try this one out as he thinks it isn't safe. With regular off the shelf 7.63mm factory ammo, perhaps it isn't.
Looks like something you'd cobble together in a Gunsmith Customisation screen in an FPS
Probably tried this already, however: try just turning the disassembly screw 90°. May not be designed to be removed.
Honestly, this gun doesn't even look that bad, if the design was improved in better equipped factory, I feel like it would be a cool pistol carbine
Give it a proper rifled barrel and sights, and just about any other type of folding stock. That'd about do it, I think.
Ah nice to notice that the soundsetting improved again. last few episodes the mic setting was quite low. Beside that love your format. Jonathan is such a good educater, wich is quite rare in my experience. keep going!
Dad spent some time setting up aid projects in Waziristan, and saw them turning out AK's with CNC lathes and stamping machines. They've been making guns in the region for over 200 years, so it shouldn't be so surprising they're pretty good at it, but it always is.
The difference between western gun manufacturing and manufacturing in these regions is this is about combining cheap, easy to acquire/make ammunition, with cheap, easy to manufacture weapons. In the west there's an oversupply of funds and an undersupply of troops, so having the best is the focus.
Only AR parts are made on CNC machines my dear. Rest is lathe made.
@@derfaschist9687 You have no idea what you're talking about, considering I directly said "CNC lathe"
@@derfaschist9687 CNC means it is a programmable machine that is autonomous. You can get any engineering machine with CNC. Thay aren't a new technology and I imagine even the least low tech places own them now.
damn 200 years and they missed making missiles
What on earth! A true frankengun
Ye
The barrel is a mystery, I thought "kees-bore" guns usually used cut-down ak or .303 barrels, seems a lot of work for a gun that won't shoot well (proprietary mag, even!). It's really cool-looking, however; cocking handle, flash-hider, apparently nice finish. Never dismiss the coolness factor on a craft-made gun. 8/10 would like more closeups ;-)
maybe the maker didnt have the tooling to reem and rifle the barrel and you are expected to get the barrel done somewhere els?
@@s_vb2220 But the whole raison d'etre for 7.62 pistol ammo is that you can share the barrel manufacturing with 7.62 rifles. They could make 2-3 of these pistols out of the barrel of a AK47. (of course that might not be economic...)
it was just a guess, i dont really have a good explaination.
he could have been out of ak barrels at he time
Maybe this one was something like a tool room prototype and they just used whatever scrap they had lying around for the barrel.
do you mean tees bore? .30 bore is a thing, but kees is not a number
I don't fully understand it myself but learning about these weird firearms is utterly fascinating and I continue to look forward to more from the armouries!
The muzzle break looks like that of an L1A1. As you said, the finish looks quite good. Surprisingly so.
Wonder if it's pulled directly from an Ishapore 1A, the Indian produced version of the L1A1 pattern.
There also is a bit of a Vietnam made SMG like the Tokarev rechambered MAT-49 or the K50M about this to me in terms of the slightly wacky layout.
The flash hider looks very much like the AKML one issued as a system with the NSPU night vision optics. Which would make sense if they also took the shoulder stock from an AKMSN.
I hope you are in good health, Jonathan. Your voice sounds slightly rusty, but I guess the recent heat wave is to blame. Thanks for the show & tell of this franken-MP, rather interesting. Good episode. Thanks again.
I have a "sepoy enfield" which from the lack of proper markings, I am pretty sure is a Khyber knock off. Collecting Khyber knock offs could become a hobby in itself I suppose, but only genuine Khyber knock offs, not the ali express copies :)
From the Instagram picture I had the impression this was a much bigger item. Always enjoy something that shows uniqueness and ingenuity in design and build.
Shade Tree GunSmithing, a new concept. This is a real " singing dog" is sings which amazing, no matter how badly. There are at least two amazing people related to this weapon. One was the Artisan who magically created it, two somebody likely fired it, perhaps trusting their life to it. Amazing stuff. Thanks
i love this kind of gun because while it would be easy to mock the simplicity and quality of it.... i mean, can you actually imagine the kind of skill it takes to make something like that from scratch without the benefit of a proper manufacturing plant or the resources of a government behind you? Hats off the actual gunsmith, just making something like that functional takes quite a bit of real talent.
Such an awesome looking weapon. Quite impressive craftsmanship considering the basic technology of their production facilities
That's actually a very nice looking bit of craft work. I'd love to see that thing re-furbished, proofed and shooting with safe ammunition.
Just commenting because I love this channel.
We love you too Matt
Good narration and interesting artefacts but I think we need more close ups of the artefacts.
I know Jonathan knows Ian of Forgotten weapons and he really knows how to make sure the audience gets a good look at the objects being filmed.
Mr Ferguson, you can see on the Khyber Pass youtube channel you can see more examples of this type of gun
Knurling on round threaded things is usually for the long forgotten strap wrench.
so, next summer plans:
go to Pakistan.
travel to the pass region.
buy as much as I can carry.
box them in nicely.
donate it all to the museum.
Unfortunately That region is banned for tourists
@@danishtariq7473 damn.
I will have to make friends with locals then.
Come back in a series of bin bags after they use you as a " dancing boy".
Johnathan, I’m very grateful for your series of videos from the Royal Armouries. I’m not a weapons fanatic but I’m interested in the development and engineering side of the weapons. Now I’m looking forward to visiting the museum and I think you’re a great ambassador for it. Bonus: you’re also a metal head! 🤟🏻
Keep being awsome Johnathin.
I honestly would love to have some firearms from there butfor study and collecting
An appropriate term for that might be "artisanal".
Or even "artisarsenal".
The charging handle is straight out of IPSC race guns. Love it.
Even when taking cues from other designs and drawing off all the seemingly infinite knowledge from all previous generations designing a new weapon and actually transferring the ideas into a functioning efficient and dependable system is so much more difficult than you would think. Big cuddos to all the little 'craft' builders that actually got something shooting out in the field.
Ahh, the ol' AK-96. I carried one of these in Koreatnamistan.
Dear Jonathan,
I had the distinct pleasure of knowing the late Geoffrey Boothroyd, and he told me that when he was about 12, someone gave him a Broomhandle Mauser to play with. He told me he was shooting it down at a beach, and he thought the recoil was a bit much but put that down to being 12. Later, he discovered he had been shooting 9mm in a 7.63 version of the pistol.
Happy days.
Frank.
Nope.
Cool that you knew the man. I have a feeling that he alludes to that incident in his book "The Handgun". Or maybe when he used to write for the Shooting Times.
@@mg1342mg
Dear Bill,
Mr Boothroyd was the president of a shooting club to which I belonged for many years. Would you care to elaborate?
Frank.
@@m.j.mahoney8905 He was the president of a shooting club to which I belonged years ago. I visited him at his home a couple of times and the best way to describe it was that I felt like the character of Mole from Wind in the Willows when he visited Badger's home. His study was a treasure trove of books and assorted firearms and accessories.
If somebody told me that, I would say they were under a misapprehension. It's more likely he was shooting 7.62 tokarev, or one of the other (and there are a few) 7.62x25mm cartridges that are hotter than 7.63 Mauser. When I first bought my C96, I asked for .30 Luger like a dumbass. It's not even remotely the same.
I can't imagine putting more than one 9mm through a 7.63 Mauser and not stopping or destroying the gun. I don't have the all the details on that event, so I won't say it's impossible.
That is probably the best quality Khyber firearm I have seen. BTW, the majority of the Khyber firearms back in the day were made from steel from the local foundries here in Cumbria - Millom, Barrow, Workington, because those foundries provided the steel to the rail making works at Workington which supplied rails for railways all over the British Empire and one of the key sources the Khyber firearms industry used for it's steel was to steal rails from the railways.
It looks like it could have been developed for the Elbonian army...
Forgotten Weapons should do a video on this gun.
Nice, interesting video - as always! :)
I believe the best classification for this would be a Personal Defense Weapon. Something made to slot between a machine pistol and a true submachine gun.
I agree. It's a Khyber PDW.
It looks like if you told someone in Pakistan to design a Beretta M93 from memory
Rapidly becoming the David Fletcher of firearms, is our Jonathan.
It is actually a sort of pretty looking tool. Having made lots of stuff myself in wood, metal, horn and bone, I have to say it is quite a lot more difficult to get a "perfect" finish on materials than anyone who hasn't done it can expect.
I think people say "Well you just sand and polish it" without knowing what that physically means, even with power tools.
I've seen photos of martini-henry style action.. Things (either a short carbine or long pistol) coming out of the Khyber region too.
Which firearms inspired it? Well, based on what I see in this video, I would say _all_ of the firearms.
the first thing that I thought when I saw this was, "superficially, the barrel and slide looks a lot like the desert eagle, it's even got a hammer too" and then I saw the slide move back at 4:46, and was like, "yup"
I took your advice and switched my pet C96 over to a 7.63 based diet and I must say he's looking much healthier now, cheers Johnathan
Maybe you can press in the spring guide at the front to lock the stock behind it
Wow! Thanks very much for showing us that one.
I'd like to see some items from Khunjerab as well, astonishing stuff
My question is when are you and Ian
from "Forgotten Weapons" going to do a team up video?
Looks like a Mannlicher M1901 with a Mauser C96 pistol grip, a Dragunov SVD flash hider, and an MP40 folding stock, and made to look like a Škorpion Vz.61, and it's magazine looks like an M2 Carbine 30 round magazine.
Looks interesting i want see this on shooting range.
new subscriber here, well done, very interesting.
Excellent
At 13:08, the criticism of it lacking in the accuracy department made me think of Imperial Stormtroopers. A actually, it looks like a prop for one of the Star Wars movies, no doubt issued to a stormtrooper for not shooting straight 😆
I love seeing Khyber Pass guns! I don't know how many of these that the Armory has in its collection, but I would watch every video 2x if you featured all of them.
This was a great vid. Please don't get me wrong or take offense in any critique or comparisons that I may offer. The videography that you normally feature for iconic guns should be different than that of unusual guns like those with battlefield mods, ultra-rare like trial prototypes or 1-offs like those featured today. Please consider some table top-down and close-up footage. Ean McCollum has incorporated this type of presentation and it's some of the most interesting parts of his vids.
P/S: Still plan to visit the UK before I die and visiting The Royal Armouries features prominently in those plans.
Thanks
Considering the whole contraption, I actually think that the charging handle could´ve a use. If you hold the side of your right hand against it like for example when loading a Garand you can press the mag release button easily with your thumb while inserting a new mag with your left hand. Yeah you completely "let lose" of the shooting grip but this way this gun could be reloaded somewhat smoothly. So maybe that was the idea there, not like much else makes alot of sense on that thing.
I love khyber pass guns! Hope i can collect em someday. Something about the clear handwork and the way they copy features with no thought to utility. Chinese warlord pistols are cool for the same reason.
Id never shoot the things good lord. I like my hands.
What a lovely piece, props yet again to Khyber ingenuity! I've always wanted to design a similar looking long recoil firearm chambered in .30 carbine. I love the c96 form factor and the larger size inherent to forward magazine pistols would lend itself quite well to sturdier locking systems without becoming an unnaturally large behemoth.
I can only imagine the ridiculous and unnecessary designs that would flourish if widespread gun control somehow became accepted in America.
Chinese Warlord pistols vs Khyber Pass guns, fifty each, who's still standing at the end of the firefight ?
That's be small caliber pistols vs every level of small arms from that to anti-aircraft guns, not much of a competition when .32acp faces off against .50bmg lol.
Ohhh, this looks so cool! The history of this weapon is interesting. :3
Very very cool.
Would be interesting to see how well it runs, but i understand the reluctance what with security and wear on a museum piece.
Wonderful content , well presented , but please more close ups and more time to study the weapon .
Do we think that this is made as a specific commission and the customer has chosen the design, or did the gunsmith think to himself "Machine pistols seem to be popular, I'll bang one out"?
I would like to see a video on any Khyber pass versions Martinis or earlier British military arms.
Hoping to see Douglas SMG some day.
I have only seen this gun in a picture on a gun forum. Always found it intriguing. Shame that we cant see it shoot, bet it got a crazy high firing-rate.
I love this man.
Carry on.
Actually a nice-looking weapon.
I hope someone puts this in Marauders
I went there in 1995 and stools were proud they could clone almost any firearm !
If it wasn’t blow back I’d say it’s one of the coolest guns I’ve seen in a bit
Kinda reminds me of the old Grease Gun or the Sten.
Simple utilitarian firearm made to be a low cost option in adverse conditions.
Does it have an interruptor or does the hammer just follow the slide?
Also I’m presuming this is full auto only?
cool looking firearm, looks like you could zoomit a bit to make it a rifle :D
its has interesting lines, and i would just love to shoot that, or well wield it because im kinda interested on its bad ergonomics :D
its almost like a mini14, a broom handle and a 1911 had an orgy and this horridly cool thing popped out.
Loved the video, keep it up! Love from Pakistan. I have one.
Dunno why but it reminds me of PM63 Rak.
Because of the slide instead of internal bolt maybe?
Khyber Pass guns show the ingenuity of their creators - no blueprints, no research division, no patenting, just dedicated craftsmen and elbow grease.
That SMG from Just Cause 3
Looks like someone who works a lot with M92 Berettas tried to build a VZ Skorpion!
looks like a copy of a OTs smg if it was described to the gunsmith and he had a load of Mauser tokarev and ak parts lying around.
My favorite KP knock off was a .45 ACP Sten. Should've been the best $40 I ever spent, but common sense prevailed. Also found a 7mm M1 Garand in a shop in Peshawar
Why does the guide rod stick out? For stacking of course!
i dont know why but this thing looks really cool. But actually think the whole as a cross of the scorpion vz61 (only from the configuration, size and generell form, maybe even the same purpose idea) and the m712 schnellfeuer.
I love weapons from this region, they are really interesting and I`d love to have one, but thats nearly impossible where I live :(
0:17 reminds me a bit overall like a CZ Skorpion. But the elongated barrel is a bit weird. 0:33 nevermind. the angle you held it at really makes a diffrence.
I'd say the meme about Khyber Pass weapons is less "They made this in a cave with a bunch of scrap!" and more "They must have been down wind of a massive opium field fire." That said, I think Khyber Pass stuff should be more prevalent in certain media. Video games, specifically. Imagine the "What?!" factor if in a modern-combat themed game there was a pickup-only weapon that was a Khyber Pass SMG which dumped it's magazine in a crazed spray before launching barrel and bolt downrange to signify that it had been "used up".
Would also be great for Fallout-type games where turning a pile of junk into a useable weapon is an integral part of the game
Colt 1911 gouges out of the nose, Desert Eagle knuckle on top to stop the slide flying off, Skorpion folding stock...it's like Hideo Kojima saw all the cool bits he liked & made a gun!
"Sights? We don't need no stinking sights!".
I'd love for y'all to look at the guns such used in the recent Indian blockbuster RRR. Love to hear about whether the props were period accurate, what the Raj actually had access to in the 1920s, etc!
The hosterable sub machine gun.
The addition scatter of a badly finished unrifled barrel with spray and pray but safe would be nice.
Bench fire a couple rounds of 7.62 Tokarev and call it proofed for 7.63 Mauser. Or pick up the pieces.
If this pistol was intended to be used by some technical staff, then the cocking handle might be useful when operating with gloves or even greasy/oily fingers. Personally, I think that it's a good idea to have it.
PS: does the lack of rifling mean that the barrel will last longer and run cooler?
This thing looks cursed and I love it to no end
Put that in a bullup chassis and just like that an updated version. Or just Build an AR that takes those same magazines.
Most SMGs classed as machinepistols have folding stocks. The term, in English, really was meant to describe small, easily concealed SMGs; the Scorpion for example. Of course i guess the Germans would call all SMGs, Machine Pistols. It's what the MP in MP5 stands for.
I prefer the more modern term PDW to describe folding/removable stocked, handgun sized, firearms and Carbine for compact short barreled rifles. Provided both are chambered in a pistol/subrifle cartridge, both would also be SMGs if they are capable of automatic fire.
Oh and of course an unstocked Pistol capable of automatic fire would also be an SMG.
In german for pistolsize Maschinenpistolen sometimes Serienfeuerpistole is used.