Why do we know so little about this gun? With firearms and weaponry expert, Jonathan Ferguson
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 28 ก.ย. 2024
- When Jonathan first joined the museum 13 years ago, we came across a weapon of unknown design, maker and origin sat on one of the many racks of the Royal Armouries' stores. Having always wanted to know more about it, he believes to finally have some answers.
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Edit - correction, this is NOT a "Monte Carlo" stock, it just has a cheekpiece. The Monte Carlo comb sits proud of the butt itself, so has a step down near the buttplate.
My friend Danny at the Cody Firearms Museum has pointed out something I missed, which is that the bolt arrangement is eerily similar to the George W. Morse patent 15995 of 1856. A possible inspiration, in which case the story COULD go Morse-This Thing-Jovanovich.
If it is indeed a variation of the Morse design, the developer of this gun was a proper patent nerd. To dig up an obscure half-a-century-old patent before Internet or even well-maintained patent databases would be a fit. Even the use of Curtis-pattern gas operation by Browning in his M1895 only goes to the late 1860s design, and it was dug up by a team of patent hounds on a payroll of a large corporation involved in a greatly damaging lawsuit.
🙋🏻♂️
they also had a laser blaster variant from 15995
@@kalui96 sadly, it didn’t look enough Star Wars blaster like so it was canceled
@@PaleoWithFries hold my tea. this with a few bolt on things would be amazingly star wars. a barrel length, single diameter tube (the old mid/late 1800s style], long eye relief "scope" (just needs to be tube with plastic or glass slide from microscope on each end] mounted on those sight bases and a low profile blocky magazine in the magazine well and some heat radiating ribbed pipe part that is cut with lightening holes on the recoil spring as a handguard. also some greebles on the top of toggle lock with a valve from scuba tank or other pressurized gas/liquid system on the hole in back of slide.
It's worth noting that the performance of the cartridge was deliberately made significantly lower than what was theoretically possible because it was a British cartridge for big game in Africa loaded using cordite powder which was exceptionally sensitive to heat.
Generally a maximum pressure of 47k psi was allowed with cordite to give enough safety factor, but with newer flake or ball powders which don't see such drastic increases in burn speed (and thus pressure) the maximum would be up around 62k.
So it wasn't exactly a slouch, despite being over a hundred years old it was right up at the limits of what would be allowed even today when using a brass case (which is 65k after safety factor).
Thank you - this is the kind of detail that I'm out of my depth on when it comes to hunting rifles.
I have also heard that chamber pressures on big game rifles were intentionally on the low side to facilitate extraction, which certainly seems wise if you have emptied that big double rifle into a dangerous critter which is, by now, feeling sort of upset but not yet feeling real dead.
The barrel seems to be the key to identifying the provenance of this mystery rifle. It looks like an unfinished production part mated to an engineering shop prototype receiver and action.
My wild guess is that it was a prototype made in the H&H factory using that particular barrel and cartridge because they were available as surplus parts. It may have been an "off the books" project by some H&H employee who knew of the Pedersen-based designs of self-loading rifles and wondered if he could make a self-loading rifle using the firm's facilities and no-one would notice if a spare barrel for their unpopular 0.375 Nitro Express rifle went missing.
If you can track down any existing 0.375" Nitro Express rifles in collections or period literature and cross-compare the barrel shape and sight block layout that might give you another line of enquiry.
Might I suggest looking for a proofing mark as it would at least give you a national origin!
@World Traveler Jonathan did mention the rifle is totally unmarked, which would mean that if the barrel was taken from an existing stock, it would have been done *before* proofing, which may be the case since it also lacks the finish machining for the sights, so it may have been a rejected barrel the designer either took from the scrap pile or was given as it was junk to them anyway
My thoughts too and likely why it ended up in the museum after not impressing the bosses haha.
@@worldtraveler930 - Proofing only occurs when you have a completed firearm that you are ready to sell. This is definitely a prototype which means proofing is still in the distant future.
Exactly what I was thinking.
In parts of the British Empire that restricted what caliber weapons could be used to hunt certain game, .375" was the minimum specified for shooting elephants. Also, I was seeing 'Express' style folding leaf sights still being fitted to brand new rifles into the mid-1970's from companies like Steyr (Mannlicher) and FN Browning
'50s was a bit finger-in-the-air but the colleague that I asked was thinking in terms of when it was popular, I think.
About 25 years ago I was in a gun shop in Shrewsbury when I was shown a double rifle owned by a local landed gentleman. A sidelock action gun made by Sauer in Austria. You may presume it would be chambered in a European calibre but this was in H&H •375. Allegedly the owner's father had used it in East Africa to shoot a right and left at two charging rhinoceroses back in the 1930s. However, knowing about the hyperbole that some people are capable of I did take a deep breath and a large pinch of salt.
@@philhawley1219 did I say rhino? Nah mate it was a pair of whinos 🍷
"You see, when a spring loaded mouse trap and a self loading rifle get really, _really_ drunk one night in a motel..."
Thanks for sharing Jonathan 👍
Man you have the best job ever. I would probably be fired because I'd be looking at all the weapons and forget to actually work.
The locking flap reminds me of the Browning gas operated pistol of 1897. Recoil actuated instead of gas, of course, by the large over the top flap with the internal toggle.
Looks as if it would make an excellent military rifle.
Reliable action, minimal open spots for dirt and debris, and a large trigger guard for operating with gloves in cold weather.
As an inventor myself I can say I’ve done a few iterations of a design before paying the money for a patent. It’s kinda expensive and time consuming to file for a patent. You want to make sure that your idea works before you go through the process. And of course your going to play with it and show your friends. So it’s going to be beat up a bit.
That looks like an iteration of the C98 Mauser, one of Germany's first forays into self-loading rifles back in 1898. The elongated trigger guard and square magazine are nearly identical. The C98 was also a flap-lock design. Wonder if a Brit decided to do a little patent infringement...
Given that real weapons parts/designs were used, I can absolutely see this design being converted into a Star Wars universe rifle. Large chunky parts with hard angles and small curves and also the exposed return spring all add to the "star wars esthetic". Really interesting design nonetheless.
That toggle is an appropriate chance to describe it as "a big wacking piece of metal".
A real hat lifter.
It may have already been stated, but the trigger guard looks as if it’s catered for shooting with winter gloves. Thank you for an interesting look at this strange firearm.
Reminds me of those guns used to knock down ice ledges around glaciers and ski slopes.
So this is a semi auto 400 nitro rifle? Thats insane.
I'm not sure what this would be used for, its completely overkill for hunting pretty much every kind of animal. Even an elephant will typically go down on the first shot from a 400 or 500 nitro.
If I had to hazard a guess I'd say this was just a side project, something someone made for the fun of it. Gunsmiths in Africa are kind of famous for this sort of thing, tons of wacky one off guns made for the fun of it. I wouldn't be surprised if some bored gunsmith at H&H found a box of those rounds lying around and figured he'd make something cool to shoot them with.
It's not a .400 NE. It's a .375/.400 Holland and Holland NE. Basically a .400 nitro case necked to .375 bore and modified to belted rather than rimmed. Not as much steam as either .400 nitro, or the current .375 H&H magnum. More like a hot .38-55/.375 Winchester express. Not something I'd want to get hit by, of course, but not quite the "runaway train" class energy of the big NE rounds
That kind of front sight base is still common on high end hunting rifles. Often Mauser based rifles made by Rigby, h&h, and loads of custom makers.
I enjoyed reading the comments more then the video.
Love this episode 😂
"Mum, can we have a BAR?"
"We have BAR at home."
The BAR at home:
It's reminds me of a stretched Mauser broom handle with the try to cancel the back sliding bolt in to a up flipping bolt group maybe the inspiration of this prototype.
2:04 I would also ask about the colour - why on Earth is it almost pitch-black?
3:43 It could be that this space would be used by the magazine catch, like on the BAR.
5:28 Another proof that this wasn't seriously intended for military use: I don't think that there were more than 6 grooves on any military rifle of the day, and even that would turn out to be a bit much for mass production.
5:45 That toggle would make A. Furrer red with envy! 😁
8:05 I believe that the Maxim gun you've mentioned earlier eluded your attention as an obvious counter-example.
10:54 I've always wondered how one should distinguish linear hammers and strikers.
I can name several types of hardwood that are almost black and darken with age such as ironwood or lignum vitae They were extensively used in Britain during the industrial revolution and into the technological age. They are even used as ball bearings in space.
If I had to guess I'd say it's a dark oak. You'd need a specialist to be sure I think. Re the mag catch, that's a good call although it could just have been intended to have a MAS-49 style external catch. On the Maxim, yes, of course, I took that as read I'm afraid as the lock is so clearly housed inside the receiver. I'm thinking there of designs with an open top closed by the toggle. edit - zoiders suggests lignum vitae.
@@zoiders I've never heard of any of those (or ebony, for that matter) being used as a main part of a gun stock. Why would one do so? It adds weight, and its hardness is of little value in a sporting piece. Besides, it doesn't strike me as particularly cheap, so why would you use it in a prototype which doesn't even have a magazine?
@@jonathanferguson1211 Oak isn't really a good fit for rifle stocks. While yes it's strong in compression and works well for ships and cannon trails it's not good at all for applications with finer scale inletting as it's too coarsely grained - ie smaller bits snap. Lignum was amazingly common in British manufacturing and it fits the bill perfectly for a gun which seems to be hard on its own reciever let alone the furniture. It was everywhere. Even machine tools were bedded on blocks of it.
@@F1ghteR41 Lignum was not expensive. Nor ironwood. It was everywhere in British manufacturing. If you wanted a blank of wood to carve a very strong stock from for a hard recoiling self loader you only had to look on the factory floor.
Whilst not adding to an argument or possibly even helping, Tom Sharpe in his book “Riotous Assembly” did mention a magazine fed rifle for shooting dangerous game…
It's like someone seen a toggle lock system, and said hey, let's turn this around, and simplify it.
that was nice 15 second episode
This reminds me of a very early version of a Pedersen. It seems quite similar, except the Pedersen uses a lever instead of 1 giant arm.
That cartridge was Holland & Holland's initial foray into .375 rimless rounds if I'm remembering correctly, and after Ze Germans introduced the 9.3x62mm and spanked H&H in the market, the latter developed the now-classic .375 H&H Magnum to compete with that. I'm not sure how long the .400/.375 stuck around after that, but given how unpopular it proved compared to its later brother, I can't imagine it was rolling around all that long. Then again, perhaps it was a limitation of the mechanical system of the rifle and it couldn't be made to work with the more potent .375 Magnum, but otherwise I'd guess it helps to date the rifle to the first couple decades of the 20th century rather than into the late 30s.
Oh wow, that's a super funky action! Toggle locked systems are prooobably terrible ideas, but god do they look good...
They aren't inherently *bad,* more that other designs are better at the same thing. Just one man's opinion, mind you. Like them for what they are, don't hate them for what they aren't
@The Project Project
👍 I have always liked the look of the Mauser 1896. aka: the broomhandle, since early childhood before "Star Wars"
I would guess the wide trigger guard might be designed that way so you can use thick gloves while shooting.
I am really suprised Ian didn't do a video on this thing. LOL
I honestly can't remember if we looked at it when he visited. I'm interested in his take, needless to say.
@@jonathanferguson1211 It would be kinda of nice to see his take on this.
Gun handling question from someone who doesn't actually handle them: I'd been told that pulling the trigger on a firearm with nothing loaded is not a good idea in terms of caring for it long term, but here we saw Mr. Ferguson demonstrating the travel of a trigger on a museum piece. It doesn't click, so it's not dry firing, which is what the "don't shoot an empty gun" rule is trying to avoid...but why not? What's different here?
In this case a captured ‘pin’ Is pushed by a spring load , it’s not harming it. A ‘hammer’ falling into empty space say, may not be good…. It’s design specific. But as a rule yes don’t dry fire.
Wow! Extremely interesting!!
Look at the Mauser Small Arm 06/08 rifle March 21, 1911 Patent; I think yours would be the prototype or working model.
As a really, really stupid question. How hard would it be to Re-Make this rifle, and chamber it in some round that's easy to get a hold of that's similar, and test/play with it so you can work out what it could be used for? Then work backwards from its functions as to why it could have been made?
Really, really hard. We don't even know this design works right, and scaling guns up or down for different cartridges is usually a big enough problem in and of itself, without having to work with a possibly already flawed design
Ah. So yeah. Stupid question. Thanks for the response.
@@Mach1048 only stupid question is the one you don't ask
@@Mach1048 it's actually a very creative idea; have you heard of airsoft? Essentially accurate model firearms that shoot a round plastic bb with compressed air, co2 or propane; the actual airsoft actions are very simple, and can be shoehorned into almost any shape; especially with 3d printing, you could print a 100% dimensionally correct plastic model of a gun and stuff an airsoft action inside of it; It would allow the kind of testing you mentioned very inexpensively and extremely quickly compared to doing a sub caliber conversion for a firearm
I've always been a fan of the idea, know what you know, and if you don't know, ask.
I was thinking of this as an Engineering problem, the thing exists, so you can reverse engineer it. And then work from there?
I wasn't ready for the introduction but it would have still been a great video as they always are
Will you be recording the live episode for putting up on the channel?
We will!
@@jonathanferguson1211 That'll be fun :)
I already confirmed this. Its the firing mechanism based on the one used for systems such as the used on the m240b, kris vector, etc.(?).
Its the prototype for the gun Miss Hazelstone and Konstable Els used in Riotous Assembly....
"Something you can ask Gus about" 🤣
I know absolutely nothing about guns, but it really reminds me of the Selbstlader from battlefield one, maybe a prototype verson
The belted H&H case became the parent case for 300 win and 7mm rem mag
It looks like the designer modeled the lines after the Standard Arms Co. self loader / pump action rifles. The gun is so overbuilt that it resembles an LMG!
Could the overlarge trigger guard be to accommodate gloves perhaps?
Would Holland not have records of ammo sold? I suspect whoever built this bought in bulk?
It's worth a look, certainly.
Looks like a good lightweight design for a magnum caliber rifle.
BF1 would have you believe this was standard issue for British medics in WWI.
It is a lookie lookie BAR. There is a matching Rolex watch somewhere
Looks like a good cartridge for Warthog enough weight and velocity in the bullet with a relatively fast reload speed.
looked up the actual velocity cause he said "only" its actually moving at 2400. while that's much slower than some rifle cartridges, for the size that it is it is flat out moving. that's a LOT of lead moving at that speed. even the large 30.06 at 200 grain moves at the same speed (about 2400fps) and is seen as a med/heavy to large game caliber. I would say that this is def in the large game size. I however wouldn't want to fire this particular rifle, something about a large piece of steel flipping up into my face makes me not so keen on shouldering this.
When will Ian be back in Leeds with Johnathan this would be a great Collab
Strictly out of curiosity, how much would it cost to make a replica of this gun?
I can just see Lord John Roxton carrying one of these to take down a dinosaur...!
It bares a resemblance to the Hotchkiss Bennet Mercie machine gun.
Could the long trigger guard be for using the rifle whilst wearing thick gloves?
Where are the rear sights. It looks like an unfinished prototype, one that has a toggle joint rather like a vastly enlarged Luger.
What sort of cartridge was it meant for?
I was thinking of European game, not Africa.
Did 375 H&H Magnum come from this. That is reckoned as the minimum level of performance for Dangerous Game in Africa.
Firing rounds into a Hippo's skull until it is dead, or the magazine is empty. Hippos kill more people than Lions.
Who test-fired this and at what?
That must be scary to fire
If the cartridges were available 1905-15 that narrows down when the gun was built as you obviously wouldn't design one to fire an obsolete cartridge.
Reminds me of a fallout combat rifle without the furniture
That top flopping up like that is apt to make a follow-up shop questionable. Expecting it or not, might drop durn thing.
Isn't the exaggerated trigger guard so that you could fire the weapon when you're wearing gloves in cold weather?
It looks almost like a B.A.R and a Luger had a odd lovechild....
Totally odd but interesting nevertheless. Thanks for sharing it with us.
It looks like a BAR born with disputed parentage
looks kinda nice
Are the screws sae or metric?
To me, it almost looks like a BAR if it was made in Germany.
Looks like a huge Mauser to me
It's clearly the first elbonian self-loading rifle.
Well OBVIOUSLY, its an early iteration of the model favored by Din DJarin,.... /Ill see myself out....
Wow, talk about trying to re acquire a sight picture! 😬
I would give the use of an arm and a leg to get a career in the royal armouries.
I've been twice and absolutely amazed me both times. Fascinating place and people
I'd be really interested in Jonathan's impression of Brandon Herrera's AK-50 build that he's doing. I think Brandon has done an amazing job. V3 of this weapon is looking very impressive. We have yet to see how it performs, but it's a very well thought out design.
My (admittedly amateur) "read" by type, caliber, furniture, etc is this is an attempt to build a "modern plains rifle" to furnish fresh meat on safari for the entire Cadre of hunters, guides, trackers, and porters. Our intrepid rifleman gets the drop on a standing herd of ungulates, and is equipped to take down several before they escape effective range (fast pointing, rapid fire friendly, fast take up express type sights, and a reasonably "big hammer" class round). As that might be too specialized, it also could do double duty as "backup rifle" against enraged wounded soft skinned game hellbent on stomping a mud hole in the offending hunter (same criteria as above). The round seems a bit low in "oomph" for the more robust dangerous game (elephants, cape buffalo, etc), but as a close- to medium-range bulk game harvester/ charging kudu sleeping aid it's seems capable. Of course, if shown to H&H or the other sporting manufacturers/suppliers it would almost undoubtedly be rejected as "a solution to a non-existent problem", and "not very British at all" in concept from a sporting point of view.
As to similarity to the shown patent, the era presumed is truly "the golden age of toggles", if the tail end of it.
Semi-auto African big game rifle, saves having a second double barrel big game rifle as backup.
When I look at this thing I think about Maroszek rifles. Quite similiar but not really.
When I discovered your channel I subscribed, then tried to guess the DNA. I wasn't even close! To me it looked like something you would get if you left a Lugar and a Browning Semi Auto 12 ga. In a dark gun cabinet with some gun oil for a night or two! 🤣😂 I kind of agree that is a lot of steel to be popping up in your face when you pulled the trigger!! Is that a Wildcat Cartridge designed for that gun? I did guess the Sporting rifle aspect, you normally wouldn't see a military rifle with that cheek piece but I think there should have been a forestock?
I was wondering why it didn't have a rear sight. lol
The top locking block mechanism reminds me of the Winchester 1890.
Boy! I'm against destruction of a weapon. But all that metal! Could've been used in a far more useful item. Or maybe even a better weapon design.
It's weird, overly complex, chambered for a very short lived cartridge... Makes my German heart spark with joy.
Fritz, we can design this to work with three screws,……ya ya but if we design it with seven it will be better.
@@noonehere1793 "3 Philips, 3 Torx ... what will we use for the remaining one? Robertson?"
Did we already have full auto?
*Hands over electric tool*
Spax tight that shit.
@@peterstadlmaier3107 Five point star (just like Apple phones)…
Three point tamper proof would be another option.
Lads, this is the most German discussion I have read in years. I love it.
I love these oddball dead end designs. Thanks for sharing this one.
With regards to not disassembling the guns to frequently, had the armory considered getting a good 3D scanner so that when one is taken apart accurate scans can be taken along with photos? It would be great from a research accessibility standpoint but also to allow recreation of various parts or entire guns.
Honestly one of the larger game studios they work with should donate one. Makes sense as a workflow even without the whole preservation angle.
Frankly they should just disassemble them. They're being overly paranoid about breaking things that are made of solid steel.
@@aniquinstark4347 I'm guessing you've not had much first hand experience with the various failure states of metal, then?
Fatigue, stresses, peening, corrosion - all of these things come into play, even in a carefully curated environment such as a museum. Doubly so with these prototype designs that (as was noted) haven't even been properly hardened in development.
This doesn't even account for things like alloy qualities - inclusions and minor variances in the alloy itself can cause huge weakness issues that take a while to show up, but are catastrophic.
@@aniquinstark4347 "I know more about how steel breaks than the museum that specializes in dealing with precisely this sort of thing all the time."
@@aniquinstark4347 you haven't taken a single class on material properties in your entire life, and it shows.
You know, based on the cartridge, this might have been a first attempt at a semiautomatic big game stopping rifle. The .375" diameter projectile been a popular choice for african big game hunting, and maybe the inventor was looking to break into that market. It's definitely a curious piece!
My thoughts were in the geographic opposite direction. Northern big game hunting. particularly bears or moose. Consider the large trigger guard opening for a gloved hand and the heavy spring arrangement to close into battery against frost debris in the fall or winter.
My mind also immediately went to Africa. If anybody can research Dutch patents, that might well be helpful, but given the “Wild West” attitude of firearm’s development back then it might have been a commissioned project from some gentry that wanted to show up somebody on safari
@@pavementsailor Also noticed the size of the guard, Semi-Auto, big game round 🤔 possibly for Daier Lemmings
Feels like an episode of Forgotten Weapons. That's a compliment.
Ferguson and Gun Jesus are top tier. Both men that had their passion and pursuit for knowledge spill over into a career they can share with the rest of us.
Forgotten weapons sucks. Dude gets all his info from Wikipedia he is a fake expert just like this guy
Jonathon has more cool guns these days, Ian must be gettin' scared.
Only unlike on forgotten weapons this one was actually forgotten
@@edgarburlyman738 I hope they don’t worry too much about one another, because they’re both building the hobby and interest. The real enemy here is obscurity and they’re both fighting that, to everyone’s benefit
A general comment here. Have you thought of using x-ray florescence as a NDT method of cataloging firearm metallurgy? I was using this method last summer at work and found it very revealing. Especially as it regards to "purity" of composition of metals. For instance using the Star-Trek like pistol and shooting a piece of "pewter" showed expected lead, antimony, and zinc. But it also revealed uranium, mercury, silver and gold content. With enough data one would be able to determine what furnace made what, if a particular manufacturer had a material specification, etc. Perhaps the rifle here may have steel(s) from an Italian, Czech or German plant. Just a thought.
Sounds like a great theory just one issue I would think metal tends to travel and move around and be bought ,stolen and everything in between so while yes u may be able to find exactly where it came from I don’t think u would be able to trace every bit as there would be no way to test purity n stuff on the recovering end they would just have to take their word . I hope what I’m saying makes sense
I've heard that a common concern among big game hunters was the risk of being charged by an animal they'd wounded. Hence why some big game rifles have two barrels, and also the original development of 'howdah pistols'. This might have been intended as a way to allow hunters to take quick follow-up shots at charging animals.
That is a reasonable assumption, at least with European boars it is a significant risk.
A quite fearsome recoil with all those large lumps of metal hammering around - also a great finger dicer if you let go of the wrong bit at the wrong time.
It uses the mass of the barrel and all to alleviate recoil. It would be a long, slow push rather than a sharp punch.
@@BlackSoap361 To me, that's somewhat worse, if things are slowed down enough that the giant flappy bit falls into your eye's ability to detect motion. You might not consciously notice the big hunk of metal flying at your forehead every shot, but your twitchy lizard brain might. That'll greatly amplify the general unpleasantness of the firearm, even if by the numbers it seems fine.
@@TheRealColBosch In operation the toggle would cycle so quickly and you are so far back from it that it would be a non-factor for the most part. But yeah, it is a "suboptimal" design.
@@obsidianjane4413 Wasn't the Pedersen rifle observed to be more pleasant to shoot than the Garand?
My understanding is Garand's rifle won out because it was cheaper and easier to produce and less finicky about maintenance. And it didn't require lubricated ammo, which was considered to be a supply chain issue.
If a weapon proposed for military service requires lubricated ammunition, that is sufficient reason for summary rejection.
No ifs, no buts.
Very cool! This may be Jonathan's best video yet - he's so very clearly really into the mystery of this thing. Entertaining and educational, an excellent use of my time. Thank you all!
“what is this weapon? no seriously, i’m actually asking you…”
I was going to say it reminds me of the luger rifle or the Mauser self loader both of which had toggle or flap lock mechanisms, funny that at the turn of the century a lot of people thought that those types of actions were going to be the future
The very roomy trigger-guard could be for use with heavy gloves similar to the FAMAS
I have seen a virtually identical one in Australia. It was own by a professional SriLanken Tiger and leopard hunter. Unfortunately when semi auto
rifles were banned his surviving wife handed in in and it was destroyed.
And an important, irreplaceable piece of firearms history was lost forever because of petty, power crazed "rulers".......
He must have bought it personally with his own money.
Obviously, Sri Lanka didn't have much of a firearms industry back then.
Interesting artifact, Jonathan!! I wonder if Holland & Holland *THEMSELVES* may have had a hand in this? Thanks for the video!
It's possible.
Kind of like how Remington had their .30 Rem AR cartridge a while back ago.
I only discovered this channel about a month ago. I've got to say that the content is excellent and this video is a great reminder of just how many unusual designs there must have been to get us to the tried and true mechanisms we know and rely on today. Simply brilliant.
Thanks Jonathan and team - really interesting.
Thanks for showing the patent drawings but I'm not 100% convinced that they exactly fit this action, as you noted in the video.
But patents are a great resource. In retrospect, we are really lucky that the point and purpose of item XIX.852 is covered by a US Patent that is now accessible online. It gives some clue as to what its mad inventors and their sponsors were up to at the time.
Furrer wouldn't be happy someone's stepping on his toggle lock toes.
One thing i noticed: It has grub and hex screws. From this point, i would date it roughly around 1920ish
If i follow this thought... Automotive Industry? They had the material, machines and these typical screws.
Follow that path further... Allan Safety Screws were highly promoted in Canada.
My wild guess: Some engineer of a automotive plant who had fought in WWI had some free time and constructed this one to hunt Bears and moose.
I wonder what type of threads are on the screws. Depending on the type, it might narrow down the possible origin of the firearm.
@@edwardmelvin9184 I'm surprised that there was no discussion of this during the video. Excellent point!
Didn't Jonathan mention a Serbian inventor, who moved to Canada?
375 belted was a dead cartridge a decade before 1920, and it was unpopular before that. So I highly doubt it was built that late. Screws are replaceable, and the design may have been tinkered with for 20 years, but 1920 is a little late for the initial build
Awww 🤗 looks like a BAR and a mauser c96 had a big fat baby
Next time Ian McCollum visits get him to lay his hands upon it he might be able to use his holy energies to work out what it is!
I intend to :) If nothing else he can expose it to a much bigger audience.
@@jonathanferguson1211 always good to see you 2 together ;-)
10:45 this is a really interesting argument on what type of firing system this technically is. A striker is a single piece with the firing pin, where a linear hammer is separate from the firing pin. However, as far as I am aware, no other toggle lock firearm had the cocking/firing mechanism inside the toggle arm like this one. You could say conventionally it is more similar to a linear hammer, or you could argue it has it's own category. Regardless, it's just semantics about what to call the parts of the gun that make it go pew pew pew.
You think 13 years is "many, many"? I had two careers that were longer than that and I _still_ retired early. I would come out of retirement and come to England to apprentice under you though Jonathan.
Call it a midlife crisis but it seems like a while - loving every moment though. Well, almost every moment :)