The failed 🇬🇧 WW2 paratrooper SMG almost leaked to the Nazis with firearms expert, Jonathan Ferguson
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 5 ก.ย. 2023
- Britain's wartime rush for a submachine gun went down several dead ends before settling on the Sten Gun. One such avenue was the Veselý. This example, the rarer paratrooper variant (Veselý 43) was deemed to complex and expensive for mass production.
It does feature an ingenious 'double-stack' magazine system that intrigued the War Office so much that the weapon continued to be looked at until it was finally killed-off by the Sterling SMG.
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I just love the British way of describing a set of priceless historical prototypes as "we've got five of *these things*"
No value judgement intended 😊
Well, until you suddenly find two thousand of them missing. What comes around, goes around, I guess. 😉
Although, to be fair, I would attribute this to Jonathan's personal manner of speaking, which I find quite charming, and the composition of Royal Armouries collection, which includes a lot of British trials pieces.
I believe it's the genetically ingrained British tendency toward understatement @@F1ghteR41
British modesty: being casually off-hand about your priceless possessions is so much more 'classy' than breathlessly hyping them up. "Yeah, we've got a few old paintings",you say, as you lead them up a staircase past a dozen Vermeers, Rembrandts and Turners.
@@MrHws5mp
Well naturally Hugh, you have similar, everybody has such things. Don't they.
*Jonathan:* "A very nice bayonet for a submachine gun."
*Imperial Japan:* _Heavy breathing_
Jonothan always credits Forgotten Weapons, what a champion 🤙🏽
I love video's with Ian and Johnathan, I wish they would do more video's together just looking at guns.
Would love a forgotten weapon style video with both of them!
Gives a nice mention then flexes on Ian but we have this.
It appears to be entirely mutual too.
I just watched another video where Ian is in Leeds, West Yorkshire, at the Royal armouries.
It made my day, as I live just a couple of miles along the Calder valley, from Leeds so Ian is actually in my neighbourhood!
That's a strange satisfying feeling to know one of my favourite producer is in my neighbourhood.
They're friends IRL
As an aside in the early 80’s I was a draughtsman in an engineering office in enfield on hot days in summer we had the windows wide open to catch some breeze, all day long you could hear the Enfield small arms factory test firing, sounded like the Somme some days
I can imagine.
The sound of whistles blowing, Artillery shells exploding, rapid-fire small arms, machine guns laying down suppressing fire, the screams of the dying, some plummy-voiced git shouting about how some complete bastard has shot his favourite pigeon...
...And then back to work once lunch was over. 🤣
@@peterclarke7240lol I mean they would’ve been testing SA-80’s so that actually sounds pretty accurate.
Where I did my apprenticeship we kept digging up spent ammunition and the odd barrel.
It used to be a ww2 small arms factory.
Did you ever hear the story about experienced Paratroopers going to a sten production plant and being out shot by some of the girls doing production and test firing?
@@michaeldoolan7595Oh, that would not be good for Paratrooper morale! The girls probably told them cheeky Para boys to sod off and then out shot them on the range!
Oh the humiliation would have been unbearable!
😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂
Out shot by factory girls!
Failed or not, that is arguably the nicest looking WW2 paratrooper firearm I've ever seen (and the FG-42 is on that list).
Thx for the peek, Jonathan!
Speck savers has a deal on at the moment. Hurry you might be able to get in.
I think the FG wins as the most beautiful Paratrooper Rifle and this wins as the most Beautiful Paratrooper SMG :D
@@trevorfitzgerald4996 Hahaha
Just imagine if this hadn’t failed… We would’ve had 60 rounds, to the MP40’s 32, in a slick SMG. Especially compared to the Sten… (an amazing gun, but it looks like a failed coathanger abortion) It doesn’t beat the FG for looks though. It’s slick, but it’s not *polished oil slick* slick.
As a Czech, made me very happy seeing that name :)
Christopher "Dickie" LeStrange-Metcalfe is my new standard for RIDICULOUSLY British names. Also, apparently he lost his commission for cheating at cards!
A proper Cad then.
I had a university lecturer named Paul Teesdale-Spittle.
@@causewaykayakmore of a “bounder” than a cad
@@64mickh 🤔😂😂
fun fact Veselý means Happy in czech
so in translation this gun is Happy 43 which i think is pretty funny
I love this ❤
also in Slovak
More like cheerful.
That sure sounds a bit Chinese 😅
I'd be right happy with 60 rounds of 9mm ready to go in one package.
It’s always great when the story is as fascinating as the weapon.
man, that double-magazine feeding system thing has gotta be one of the coolest things i've seen all year! fantastic engineering on this thing, sans that magazine safety position.
I thought it was some weird 303 experimental battle rifle at first.
It looks absolutely amazing. The silhouette is so 'lean'! Love that tube design. And barrel shroud reminds me Winchester Model 1897 trench gun.
@@chasewilliams5128 I've still got a BSA Airsporter MK IV and it is a nice gun but it looks nothing like this.
it doesn't have a pistol grip. fail.
Which also had a useless bayonet !
Indeed
@@deeplorable2913 You don't need a pistol grip to have a good weapon, actually I think guns without them look much nicer than those with them.
Long time viewer, infrequent commenter: I really appreciate that you took the time to record footage for how the mechanisms worked here. Really made me pause what I was doing and pay more attention to the video.
If you'd genuinely seen other videos you'd know he often shows the mechanism
Oh sorry I guess I'm a fake fan for pointing out a thing they put extra effort into that I appreciated lmao
Veseli, in Czech, means Happy or Jovial. The right name for a gun designer.
This is honestly one of the most interesting and unique weapons I've seen, I absolutely love the mechanisms for the double stacked magazine.
Lovely seeing the Veselý featured.
What a story, what a gun! Having worked with Czech engineers, I get why it’s a unorthodox design that actually works. Don’t know why but it’s a typical Czech thing.
Even the sound of it clicking together is well made!😶
Isn't it? Very satisfying to put together.
This thing reminds me heavily of the 1940 S&W Light Rifle. Granted this thing seems like it probably wouldn't break as easy since it's still a pistol caliber.
The Smith & Wesson Light Rifle was also made for 9mm Parabellum. It was finely manufactured but poorly designed, the extra wide magazine well holds a pretty normal looking 9mm magazine, the extra space is just a 'chute' for spitting out empties, and there's a lot of practical problems with all that. Very brittle receiver, not one of S&W's prides.
That’s what I thought this thing was at first.
@@0neDoomedSpaceMarineAlso the S&W wasn't even a full auto, they litterally tried to sell the british millitary a 9mm semi auto carbine like it was 1916.
@@rattlestormrepublic4874 A 9mm semi-auto carbine isn't like the worst idea, if it's closed bolt you can easily get good accuracy out of it and all, but the design for the Light Rifle was just not any good, it would not have benefited from having full-auto fire given its fragility.
Mind, the vast majority of soldiers in WW2 were armed with bolt-action rifles, so a working semi-auto pistol caliber carbine would still have a pretty substantial advantage for CQB given the speed and capacity. Of course, an actual subgun would do that and more, and the Light Rifle was categorically inferior to any of the common subguns in WW2, categorically inferior to a Hi-Point carbine, really.
I was trying to figure out what was up with the magazine all the way up until it was covered, and it's so much more delightfully weird than I could possibly imagine.
The collapsible stock design of this submachine gun is almost identical to the Italian OVP, an SMG which had been designed in 1917 as a personal defence weapon for Italian aviation crews. Very similar guns conceptually, and I wonder whether Veselý was somehow influenced by the OVP.
It was
By "collapsible stock"? I guess you mean the butt and the way it fastens to the body? My guess is that you're reading a bit too far into that. The the way it fastens to the body is not the same as the OVP which I think is more meaningful. The OVP has side facing lugs, and the V43 seems to fasten centrally.
If you're making a (hopefully) easily assembled gun that is going to have a wooden butt and a tubular body, there's only so many ways you can go about that.
@@tommeakin1732 No, I mean conceptually, the stock detaching at an in-line position on the rear end of the receiver. The locking system is different but the placement is the same. There were plenty of other collapsible stock designs in other SMGs of this period, including the Sten Mk. V which was adopted in place of this gun, but this is the one of the only ones that I know of to use an OVP-style stock. Perhaps it's just a superficial coincidence but it's quite an interesting parallel.
@@jameslawrence2446 "Easily removable" is not the same as "collapsible." A collapsible stock is like what's on the MP7, or on some modern AR platforms (I'm sure there are better examples, but I can't think of others off the top of my head.)
Appreciate the great info. Would like more detailed close-ups. Thankyou
I visited the royal armouries in leeds today, safe to say I was hugely impressed with the collection and the staff, had an interesting chat with one of the performers about star wars
It would have been awesome if the haversack had a V-42 dagger as used by the US/Canadian Devil's Brigade sheathed on the side of it. The complete package.
It would have had a Sykes.
me too (I have several) but the gun is also a V-42@@handlesarefeckinstupid
The magazines probably cost more than a complete Sten.
Love the simplicity and beauty of stamped sheet metal gun . Beautiful bluing on this gun as well.
I thought that's where the magazine was going but the double/single stack rear feed is totally mind-blowing, coffin shaped magazine is somehow quite appropriate. Thx. much. 👍
All pre- CNC, beautiful engineering, built by craftsman.
Very interesting concept to have a 60 round 9mm magazine at the same height and width of a 30 round magazine. Wish some others would’ve developed this concept further if it works reliably
This gun has given me a lot of inspiration for a project I am working on. Thanks for showing this. Jonathan Ferguson never fails to find or say something that gives me inspiration.
Fascinating. Thank you for showing this. That weapon clicks together deliciously.
So, it's basically bolt-hold-open but for rear stack of rounds, until forward column is depleted.
Interesting, thank you, and thanks for sorting out the lighting. I can see the fine details now 🤘
Fascinating ! Thank you.
Fascinating stuff as always.
Brilliant rundown! Well done loading that magazine. 😂
amazing back story as always Jonathan
Holy Bovine, Sir! Your weapons are so interesting and well explained. Good on you!
I learned something new looking at this video! Thanks!
Excellent work, excellent video
As an American, I love the British respectfulness!
Very cool, keep up the good work
Never mind any of the "firearms fanboy" stuff; what a wonderful piece of engineering.
This is one of those "they were so preoccupied with whether or not they could, that they never considered whether or not they SHOULD."
I really appriciate the fact that you say that the rounds are inert, you do not need to but it assures people that safety is in mind.
I think he needs to do so to comply with current you-tube policy and procedures about guns, but yes its a nice consideration.
@@aidanfarnan4683I do it for the viewers - as yet we've had no YT issues. As we monetise, that may change!
I don't. As far as I can tell it has everything to do with calming the kkona Karens who get hard at the chance to boss around (or one-upping) other folk in the name of "safety". If you've spent only a few days in "firearms communities", you know the type. _"W-w-w-wear your safety glashes!"_ It's also one thing being on a range and another sitting in a museum. I trust Johnathan to look after himself, and maybe the one other guy in the room who's helping him film. He's a grown man who can make that call for himself, and he doesn't need me breathing down his neck and slighting his means to think
@@tommeakin1732 Well, based on what he has said there are people who get concerned at least at him pointing the firearm towards the camera (probably because they instinctually have a respect for the end of a gun) so, it seems decently reasonable to me. But also, it really does not matter either way, takes like 3 seconds to say and sooths those who might care.
@@CatsT.M Perhaps I'm being too harsh, but it strikes me as another little case of pandering to a loud but small camp who like to make their problem someone else's problem. If you flinch when someone passes a gun (almost certainly unloaded) past the camera you are looking at them through, that's something to feel a little ashamed over and you might want to work on, or put up with - it's not something to be proud over and put on others.
I've got a couple of Mosin bayonets, 1891 and 91/30 patterns that are extremely well finished. Extremely deep blue, no manufacturing marks and low serial numbers. I'd never seen any bayonet as well made as these. They seem as if they just came out of the factory!
I especially enjoyed this video and the history around the sub gun, the magazine is very unique and revolutionary for its time, the reload under fir would be stressful.
I wonder about the dirt and mud trials? That was a complicated box to have to clean out. 😮
Great video
In A word, Fascinating.................Thanks.
At first glance i would have said modified/simplified Lanchester, I did not know this one existed.
Disassembly catch. I enjoy hearing things described using terms that I absolutely understand but don't regularly use.
That was so interesting. I am not knowledgeable about firearms, merely an interested observer. It seems to me that this gun is, indeed, in the Gucci bracket. It's a beauty!
Beautiful. I've always wondered what some of the various weapons would look like with a finish like that instead of the practical military finish.
Check out Interwar era subguns in general, a lot have full wooden rifle stocks, finely machined receivers, and not rarely a nice blued finish. The American Thompson is a famous example, because they were the only viable subguns which the US Army could source in any quantity in the beginning of WW2, and there was no simplified economized model yet, those things were extravagantly expensive.
@@0neDoomedSpaceMarine actually, the interwar subguns and pistols, plus some of the semi-auto prototypes, are my favorites. I love the older German machine pistols like the MP-28.
If you check the guys that do parade rifles.Some really nice polished up 1903 and M1 rifles
The talk of BSA reminded me, I would really love to see you make a video on the BSA autorifle if possible. I remember doing a bunch of research into it a while back and the Internet is really very lacking on much information about it, most sources just saying it's almost identical to the Thompson Autorifle it was based on. However, I tracked down the patent drawings for it and it seems to me to be actually quite significantly different from the Thompson Autorifle and a major improvement in many respects. Again, I would really love to see you talk about it because it's a very interesting seeming rifle to me with very very little coverage online. I'm not sure eif you guys actually have one of them, but seeing as they were tested in British trials, I can't imagine who else would have a surviving example.
Where did you find the patent drawings?
@@garymitchell5899 this was a couple years ago now, but iirc I looked at all the info I could find on the gun online, and ran any names associated with the project through a patent database. That or maybe I just shifted through all the patents from BSA, I really can't remember. Unfortunately I can't seem to find where on my computer the PDF is, otherwise I would just give you the patent number. I'll keep an eye out and hopefully I'll find it then give you the number.
Ah, yes. The Thompson auto rifle...
Thinking of this rifle always makes me blish.
Brilliant, now I really want to see this being fired
great story/facts
That gun went together with some satisfying clicks.
The finish on that gun really is lovely.
At first glance I thought it was in .30 Carbine. That magazine looks like a feeding nightmare
13 EM-1/2 rifles casually sitting behind him!
I will visit the museums when in the U.K.! Can't wait.
I just imagined a Spectre SMG with this mag system and i've realized it would be REALLY heavy.
Interesting story and development of that 'double barrel' SMG magazine.
Nice video as always. Can we expect 4k in future videos?
Very nice idea on that magazine.
I’m going to be going to the museum in leads soon as I’m on a college study abroad program and I can’t wait to see everything that is on display
Sweet-looking paratrooper gun.
That is a work of art, is it currently in the Armouries display?
A boss of mine when I was much younger, drove a Norton 750cc motorcycle, but was rebuilding an older BSA 650. Since I worked in a small engine shop, he happily showed me the torn down BSA engine with the two cylinders going up and down exactly 180° out of sync. I mever did get to see it running, and I wonder how much vibration it had. I recall the two cylinders had a pin connecting them, but I cannot remember exactly how it was arranged in the engine block. BSA sometimes created solutions that weren't the same as everyone else...
In czech submachinegun was called "kulometná pistole" - literally "machine pistol" so I think he meant to call it like that but mistranslated it into automatic pistol.
Btw "Veselý" means "happy" or "jolly" in czech.
Most people outside of the former Czechoslovakia these days are much more familiar with the Czech word _samopal_ for an SMG or an assault rifle, when did terminology change, if you don't mind me asking?
@@F1ghteR41 Term "kulometná pistole", which is technically same as russian "pistolyet pulemyot" or german "maschinepistole", was used before and druing WW2. Afterwards things got a bit chaotic when terms like "samopal" and "automat" were supposed to replace the original term but colided with russian "avtomat" used for assault rifles. There were attempts to distinguish it by calling assault rifles heavy submachineguns but it ended up in adoption of term "samočinný automat" or SA for short for both types of weapons for some reason, resulting in confusion that is still present.
I got to look at it again. it is confusing stuff that has more to do with linguistics and political mess...
@@jirja3192 I see, I see. Well, thank you for the insight!
It looks like both Czechoslovakia and East Germany kept using the same terms for both the SMG and the 'assault rifle' (despite German having politicaly pretty neutral term Maschinenkarabiner), and so were Romanians until a brief period in the mid-to-late '80s. Poles, on the other hand, kept their term for submachineguns (calqued from the German Maschinenpistole) from pre-war period and called 'assault rifles' simply carbines or automatic carbines, quite alike the Russian definitions. And as far as I get it, the similar thing happened in Hungarian. The Bulgarians, in turn, simply borrowed the Russian term _автомат_ (avtomat).
So it seems like if there was any political reasoning in the whole matter, it was either very minimal, or very subtle, or very complicated.
@@F1ghteR41 The political part is with Soviets constantly intervening into Czech weapon development, since they wanted everyone just to make AKs, Simonovs and Tokarevs (ironically czech derivates of Tokarev pistol that were beter than poor vz.52 were rejected by our politicans) but mainly it looked like they tried to avoid adding the term "Assault" to some of their weapons after WW2. Czechs actually did tried to push the term assault rifle or "útočná puška" translated from german "sturmgewehr" but it was rejected.
(Side note, Emanuel Holek, creator of ZB vz.26, ZB vz.37 and later Bren and BESA gun used term Stossgewehr and Sturmgewehr back in early 20's for his SMG, trying to unsuccessfully convince Czechoslovak officers who preffered rifles)
@@jirja3192 First of all, I don't think you're being fair in blaming the Soviets here. Czechoslovakia in particular dodged even the basic cartridge standardization for quite a while, keeping 9×19 until the early fifties, 7,92×57 & 7,92×33 until the latter part of the same decade, inventing its own intermediate cartridge amidst all of this and also readopting .32 ACP in the early '60s. So much for the Soviet pressure!
And then there's the SA vz. 58, which, while sharing the cartridge, doesn't go even a step further and has a proprietory magazine, and the same goes with the LK vz. 52/57 & UK vz. 59 with their proprietory links. And to be frank, the story of the Czechoslovak TT variants being rejected in favour of problematic, yet fully domestically designed Vz. 52 sounds a lot like the issue of 'not invented here', which is quite the opposite to any foreign pressure. And it looks like they've succeeded, since the only Soviet-designed small arms the ČSLA actually adopted in large quantities were SGM (TK vz. 43) and SVD. Was it for the better? I doubt it, to be fair, and, as the story of the LADA project shows, it was recognized by the military and political leadership as well, albeit too late to change anything.
One can also compare and contrast the issue here with what the French got themselves into when sticking to the 7,5×54 and thus FSA Mle 1949/56 with its 10-round magazine, which was clearly inadequate for the rapidly changing battefield. And I wouldn't even get into the similarity of training line of reasoning, which seems to be the driving force of change to the M16/HK416-pattern of weapons among many NATO or NATO-adjacent nations these days.
As for the term 'assaul rifle', it goes back before Holek, as at least as early as 1918 it was used by Isaac Lewis in the form of 'assault phase rifle'. And in fairness to the Czechoslovak military, they were far from the only ones who rejected or neglected SMGs at that time.
VAP stands for Very Awesome Pew
I would guess that the purpose of the 2 position magazine latch is to act as a safety. Absent a means to prevent the bolt from moving to the rear far enough to chamber and fire if dropped, it would keep the ammo out of the way until needed.
We who love guns mechanics/history now have two referents (1) Gun Jesus, (2) Rockstar Jonathan Ferguson.
That was very enjoyable.
Good one!
That magazine makes it look like a larger calibre than it is. Thought it looked like a proto-assault rifle.
This would be an interesting design to revisit
A fascinating design that it is entirely understandable getting passed over considering that the of the "fast, cheap, or good" questions Britain had to go with fast and cheap.
That thing has some beautiful aesthetics.
This is the most interesting new firearm I have seen in ages.
This is quite awesome, to bad they don't use this in modern firearms. The magazine engineering good be useful today.
6:44 ferguson mention of how blood is not great for historical firearms like these shows his dedication. its not about the danger of getting cut, its about the damage to the gun's condition
He doesn't want to bleed ON his art.
Yup, you'd lend him tools readily enough.
It looks like the 1940 S&W light rifle. Thats what i thought it was to start with.
Great Grandfather, what did you do in the war?
I made butt sacks.
Part FG42 and part Sterling! Great Video 😀
In the mid 1980s in elementary school I found a huge old book, one of my favorite books to take out from the schools small library. This TH-cam page is the closest thing I've seen in 40 years to that book from 1950s or 1960s I believe it was an edition of "Guns of the World" or "Small Arms of the World".
I really like his "Jacket over Spitfire T-Shirt" attire.
Can you perhaps do a show , comparing Patchet's Sterling design to the Sten, and what made it so much better than the Sten?
The whole video I kept thinking “what a cool and interesting gun, and it performed well? That’s wild!” Then Jonathan mentioned “he was a Czech refugee” and I said “oh that makes sense.” 😂
I reckon the suomi style ‘coffin’ mag (quad-stack, double-feed) would have all the benefits of a large capacity, but with easier manufacturing. Just put a loading tool in the stock and it’ll work.
Then it would have all the issues with the coffin magazines that caused them to be dropped before the war ended.
In the end, despite the numerous attempts by various parties, the high capacity magazines were always problematic at best. A double stack, double feed stick magazine was the way to go. And if you need more ammunition, take two of them.
No matter what…it is a genuine thing of beauty
i wouldnt mind having one
If you add a little bit more light to the scenario would be very good, is a bit dark. Anyway amazing vídeo 😅
Be nice to see it on the range
I would love to spend an afternoon looking around there 👌
About the barrel length - I think it is supposed to be about 10.5" which would be quite ok for aimed single shots for pistol calibre ammo? bear in mind other well known 9mm sub-machine guns with barrels over the common eight inch, like the MP40 at 9.9", the Owen 9.75", Uzi 10.2", Beretta 38A 12.4", Suomi 12.5" and ZK383 at 12.8"...some of these renowned for accurate single shots?
12:37 He sounded like Sean Connery when he said "suspicious"
Vesély Airborne prototype?
That magazine and feed system is brilliant from an engineering view point, but fails the KISS principle and looks like wear and tear may have been an issue.
This looks like the sort of thing you'd see a Death Korps of Krieg guardsman using while clearing trenches
Does anyone else just love those clicks!?
What an elegantly designed weapon, beautifully finished by BSA and an ingeniously designed, and by the looks of it flawless feeding magazine system. I'd really like to read the report on the trials of this weapon to see how long the magazines would feed the large amount of ammunition they held before the blowback system gummed up the works and needed cleaning. I suspect it would take a good few mags before any feed stoppages. Perhaps the mags would need a bit of a brush or wipe clean before a reload, of that I'm not sure. How good it would have been when in wartime production with the inevitable " tweets" that would have clearly been made to make production easier is the real question. But that example I'd dearly love to have owned, if allowed now and I were still shooting!