This is also a trait of a codependent, taking responsibility for abuse done to them by the narcissist in order to try to fix things. They get assaulted by the narcissist, the codependent at first explains this is hurtful and why, then they get gaslit by the narcissist and then the codependent apologizes to the narcissist for the abuse done to them. It’s utterly crazy making. The codependent then becomes hyper vigilant to make sure they do not trigger the narcissist constantly scanning the environment, moods, actions of the narcissist to avoid abuse.
My mind gets relief from blaming myself or seeking out what my problem is, maybe I'm the one with the problem... For some reason these thoughts make me feel better than the truth that he is the problem and he is unable to truly love me.
@@kellye9565 we don't want to believe that it is real. There must be a solution. If we change, they will love us. So painful to realize it never seems to change
This was me for many years. Looking back I realize that I was surviving a home with 3 narcissist and a large middle eastern community. I am still a little hyper vigilant but creating distance.
I did exactly this with my narc. I fought back initially about the abuse. She made a huge deal about something that didn't even happen and decided to "break up". I didn't know why we were breaking up so I went to her to talk about it. I ended up apologizing for no reason. After that I conditioned myself to not react to her mood swings and I was fearful about arguing with her. I started reducing my responses to asking about her feelings instead of questioning her crazy tantrums just so the abuse would stop.
A close relative, who does not have a diagnosis but perfectly fits the description of narcissism, recently baffled me. Her only supply that she has left was gone out of the city for several days and she wrecked a havoc around house, she ran outside behaving like a crazy person, had psychosis, was hearing some inner voice and following it, had paranoya, was running into cars. Was transferred to hospital and diagnosed with schizofrenia. She does not seem to remember (or is not telling) what was going on in her head. Meanwhile, I do not believe that she has schizofrenia, I think she reaized that she was losing her supply. Could this have been an episode of mortification? Is it really possible that this behavior still perfectly fits into narcissistic collapse?
I think I finally understand why my son has depression, and that depression is a mechanism he deals with his mortification over being rejected by someone he thought was inferior than him…and other life problems (debts and unemployment) …
Miss you? Yes, wished you lived next door. Wish also you had access to the trio of my husband, bro, and sis. All alive in their late 70's. All abused so horrifically by both parents, physically, emotionally, verbally. All are highly intelligent and gifted. A goldmine for you in particular. Ive known these 3 for 20yrs. Ive endured 'him' and am waiting for the day of his cremation to set me free. Thanks to you for your sharing the psychology behind it all. A topic Ive always been fascinated with. The mind and why people do what they do. The rabbit hole you take me down is delicious. All in the comfort of my home. All free to access. I cant do justice describing the contribution to humanity you are accomplishing. Dankeschöne.
@@anastasiavonbeaverhausen5443 i do have the insiders info. But the damages! He used/uses it all for gaining sympathy. It worked 20 yrs ago. No less than a thousand hours listening to him. Now i am part of the 'story'. And its ugly. Thanks to SV I am 'educated' It would be a contribution to humanity...what those 3 siblings have lived...and undoubtably passed on...im stil dealing with healing, which likely wont be complete till he is cremated. He still 'lives' here.
So on target. I first thought my partner was bipolar. But as things went on, I met various versions of the man, often watching him switch in the same day over nothing, blaming, shaming and showing paranoia all the way. It so confused me but you cleared things up so well.
Vaknin..I miss you. I broke my engagement and left. Yet as you said I now don't want anything to do with intimacy. As yes it was a colourful life. Today I realised that I chose to be a victim else there would be no abuser. Thank you so much.
You are my favorite professor, it's true ,I've learned alot from you ,was married to a narcissist for 56 yrs ,and it was very difficult, he has died in 2020 ,I've got my control back ,and run my own life now ,life is good ,I'm getting well more and more ,thank you Sam 🙏 ❤!
My ex would usually seem desperate to keep me from talking at all. As soon as I would attempt to say a word,he would immediately speak over me. I always had the sense that he feared I would say something that he could not forgive. Perhaps he feared I would make a statement that would lead to mortification.
The narcissist has only primitive defense mechanisms from which to react. Much like a snake. And like snakes with split tongues, they tell you one thing and mean another. Tasting your reactions. Thank you for this talk.
Well they are the serpent seed. Something happened between Satan and Eve. Cain and Abel were "brothers" but had different fathers. They were of two fathers. Bloodline war. The narc I was involved with had very peculiar obstetric anomalies including weird twin stuff...she was even curious about my blood type. Cain was the original narcissist... these people are different. They are a different species. They are not of the Adamic race
@schwiftycats I love the Bible and your theory. I’ll have to read about the birth of Cain and his relationship with Able with this perspective in mind.
@9:11 i used to call my ex an emotional burn victim because his responses would be so disproportionate to the circumstances. then he would swing back into what i also called an emotional mute. it was exhausting.
I think it would be interesting if you did a video on cultural psychological consequences of rampant narcisissm in the world today and elaborated more between the very real difference of people who could be diagnosed as narcisists, and people who've only learned narcisism/narcisistic tendencies through today's culture (and family of course) and cant think their way out of it, but are capable of looking into the figurative mirror, as opposed to the full on narcissist. Thanks!
I love you Sam Vaknin! you just have described with details what goes on in the mutual or co discarding situation and in a way absolves the people involved. you used a biblical verse that I quote often "Father forgive them for they not know what they are doing" I felt affirmed when you said that.Gracias!!!!
Sam, I'd like to contribute myself to your pipeline of 1800+ case studies of narcissism. Everything you said in this video, like in many others, rings so true about myself. Internal mortification after being cheated on has brought me into states of psychosis.
I found really interesting how you explained the processes after mortification and their connection to the different self states. I was trying for years to understand how psychology could utilize such rigid constructs in diagnosing and treating personality disorders. For me and my experience your explanation is simple and straight forward and with great potential. Thank you for opening up this path of thought!
The insight on all of the shifting from trait to trait all under the umbrella of personality disorder is genius and you’re explaining so clearly here. This is brilliant and lightbulbs kept pinging as you described my parents!
He put Alpha as my phone's name at one point. Confused the F out of me until now. He externalized his mortification and actually believed I was in charge. He thought I was the one that destroyed everything and made him depressed when in reality I literally couldn't have done less. He put a stop to every one of our plans. He went so far as to tell me he could not or would not take me places I begged to go-that we both said we wanted to go to-then blamed me that we weren't going. It also explains why he absolutely COULD NOT take responsibility for anything or accept anything as fact that went against his narrative though it's plain as day to everyone else-it would have forced him to internalize his mortification to do that. Unfortunately this became very public, and everyone close to him forced him to see the error of his ways and internalize it. Now he has no other options, and sees me as the idealized person I was (I hadn't changed & really was perfect for him.) Don't get me wrong, if things go south again I'm out. He already showed me how replaceable I am when he went from Grade A supply of all 4 S's to just the 1 when I became ill (Sadistic supply of course.) Supply addicts used to a high quality fix go into withdrawal if the quality goes down. As good as the good supply was, that's how bad the bad supply must be due to the increased tolerance level.
So so helpful Sam. I will continue to research mortification and that process and especially find it helpful here in how it links into the hovering process. Absolutely saving my are today this clip. Bless you!!!
Wow Exhausting. Just tonight i had a visit/attempted hoover from ex bpd... After someone told me last week he cried and talked about his regrets in his behaviors towards me, that he knew i loved him and he felt terrible about all he'd done and he knew he messed me up and i'd probablly never be the same. That he was in bliss,high, like magic when we were together, and he felt so much sorrow... That he didnt know why he hurt the most amazing relationship he'd ever had... That They sat and cried and talked for 2 hours in the apple orchard. !! What!!? He put me through such a painful rollercoaster, turned my perfect love into love/hate/love/hate... Its true i will never be the same! Mourned the loss of him like a death! Such heinous sadness! I will never grieve so hard again as long as i live im positive. So friggin complicated and sad. I cannot believe after he ditched me and 6 weeks of me constantly trying to heal...now,now he comes back! If i hadnt been told of his regretting crying episode, i'd never even have thought he cared about our time together! I almost gave in tonight., to the physical comfort, familiarity, amazing unreal sex... I came soooo close, but all the terrible grievous nights of the past couple months,just agony, all that wouldve been for nothing, just to have to heal again! He knows how good he had it! The one that got away! I wouldve adored him forever. I will always love him. Im just so confused about his break down and voice of reason and his feeling of actual loss,with his cousin in the apple orchard!! Wtf? He's definitely bpd with npd comorbidities. A hot mess. But it was wild to hear that he shared with her that it was like magic, and that he loved me and wished he could change his crazy actions.! Sounded almost human!! He mourned the loss of me! Like i did him. Confusing. Didnt think he was capable of that much introspection! As he is a selfish grumpy mean inconsiderate person. ((And no,, he did not think i would know of his breakdown and crying regret and sharing vulnerability with his cousin))
You are very good at explaining this terrible reason when you are in the presence of a real alien that is how I would describe them they are not human they are not real they are like a stuffed doll or a piece of wood not of this world when they make you think they are very with the world
Dear Prof. Vaknin , what happens to the external object that has been re-idealised with much effort by the narcissist if the former partner does not react to hoovering attempts, i.e. the attempt fails? Does it remain idealised until the next attempt or does this threaten the grandiosity of the narcissist and is devalued again and is needed to be re-idealized in the case of next hoovering attempt? Does it make a difference whether it was a functional hoovering, hoovering to rebuild grandiosity, to punish, to domesticate or for revenge? Thx
Failed hoovering leads to cognitive dissonance and to a delusional devaluation and discard (the narcissist convinces himself that he did not want you in the first place and that he is the one who has discarded you).
This is the video i was hoping to find. It explains why my ex (we parallel parent) went into a rage and then (for the first time is his life) apologised to me after i told him.off like I would to a child. I was wondering why he apologised. Seems because he possibly has no supply so he has to keep me on side otherwise he will suffer mortification. I accepted his apology and moved on. In the past, before watching Dr Vaknin, I would have ignored him for weeks and I now know that will enrage him which i can't be bothered to deal with anymore. I've grown enough to just tell him off and carry on. Like a with a child, you hold no grudges. He is not well.
What happens if you don’t let the narcissist in when he tries to hoover you? Telling them you are not a play toy and he is a weak man. I am assuming another mortification? Then what?
True, my husband would switch. I couldn't understand why he would do this ,took me years to notice what he would do ,but notice the switching probably every month or sometimes every 2 months,! So interesting 🤔
Vaknin I do miss you! You’re in my ears every day at the moment. Your videos are on fire this week! My possibly (but apparent from this video) not mortified covert narc hoovered me only yesterday... missing my snap shot from a year ago when we lived in a different country during our shared fantasy! Before covid sent him into a spin lol and he started his devaluation phase in full power! I got discarded... now I’m over it, guess what! He’s back 😅I’ll have to do a better job at mortification next time! Any tips? Thanks for this video! Perfect timing Sam
@Prof. Vaknin , when narcissist says: "As soon as you don't play the way other people want all of the sudden you're all bad". Would that be internal or external mortification? Could be both? On one hand he is blaming himself for people treating him as bad object because he is not playing by their rules. On other hand he is blaming people for treating him bad and leaving him because actually he is all good and no need to change.
My god I've been trying to find a reason why she was coming for me so hard. Because she'd never admit it. This is really sad but I do believe anyone can make changes but I don't think some really know what it means to be better. As a borderline, I've found myself laughing at people in distress until I started realizing how dumb I look when I'm in distress. I think therapy, weed and medication helped me slow down and gain empathy for others and myself. "No skin and primitive responses" are exactly what I felt wanting her away from me.
29:43 so would you agree that the switching reverts back to what they started with after the mortification ends? like does the grandiose narcissist go back to grandiose after he f’d things up as a borderline? 44:10 I don’t think this abuse will make me conform to anything in the future. All i know is that if this is Love-i dont want it. ever. Again.
My ex husband is a diagnosed narcissist. We are currently separated. He had a rough few weeks following the initial separation and now he seems very well settled in to a new role as Really Great Dad (every other weekend) and Super Fair Ex which is *helpful* in its own weird way (present for the kids, getting the info for the mediation ready). He is most definitely hoovering me right now - attentive and helpful, just an all around Great Guy making the transition easy. My question is this: will my playing along with his external projections benefit me for an extended time as I’m helping to reaffirm his grandiosity, or will he quickly and viciously flip and punish me? If I have information that could expose him - and he knows it, is it worth playing that card close to my chest, to keep him from destroying my life?
@@lukabarba2716 when I discovered that he was planning on starting his own business with his new supply, and that he had several law suits against him, I filed for divorce in order to protect my assets. He was mortified, has completely discarded me, thank goodness. No more hoovering. He’s maintained his front for the kids as they are prime narcissistic supply every other weekend. I’m still holding my info close so that if I need to use it during negotiations I can. That said, I’d recommend playing along for as long as you can. Once you know that he’s playing a game, that he is and will continue to lie, you will have so much more time and space on your hands to plan.
I left my boyfriend for someone else. I broke up with him by phone, he was abroad studying. I got married and moved abroad. Never been contacted by him. So hoovering never happened. What mechanism can he used then? I searched social media not long ago, found out that he had been married 3 times, and have kids with all of them.
what I thought were just 'disappearances' with attempts to reconnect were really hoovers. So now I see our relationship was worse than I thought, and on a different timeline than what I figured. I think he contacted me when he was mortified by someone else and needed a fix. He would contact me at times when I would be unlikely to answer, as I had already confronted him that I was still asleep at those times. He just wanted a message from me at some point to soothe him. It eventually got to the point where he wouldn't answer those messages. He just wanted them.
I struggle with the HARD FACT he was & had supply women on his contracts at work ....& then as if by MAGIC he returned BACK N forth to me over a 38 year period having DISCARDED them the way he FINALLY DISCARDED ME but I FINALLY GOT HIM GONE AFTER NEARLY 40 YEARS ....THE LIES ABUSE CHEATING MOODS THEN THE HOOVER RETURNS ITS ALL SO CLEAR NOW THE LIFE THE RAT LIVED SAD SAD FKR ....
Sam, yes it's true I can and do miss you....You said "Realization never happens if the the former intimate partner mortifies the narcissist"...1:37 time frame. I don't understand, you said it in passing but important. So if I the intimate partner (me)stands up to the narc and tells the former what she's has done wrong and the Narc. comes back to hoover??? Why? I caught her cheating and went around interviewing are circle of friends who knew more then me....This caused mortification because she was exposed....
@@samvaknin Watching this I assumed I caused mortification in the way of outing his abuse to others, he actually stated that I embarrassed him, and that he was afraid of me. It was a back and forth of both of us discarding each other. Then, I finally disgarded him and went complete no contact, 6 months and counting. He reached out to me twice thus far. I will never respond, I'm to afraid to cause I think he just wants to hurt me.
@@MrsOctober-kc5de I recently went no contact. Blocked him on my phone and social media. Do you think he still will find a way to reach out or finally let go?
If you feel like you have some either covert narcissistic or borderline traits, is there anyway to heal that other than just trying to become self aware and take accountability?
What do you have to say if both parties discard each other at the same time say in a traumatic argument where both parties are mortified and both are either narcissist or borderline or viscera
Miss you Dr. Vaknin? How can I when I have such an amazing snapshot of you! But seriously, I do have some questions regarding Mortification, although the lecture is very thorough and I did watch multiple sections repeatedly to get the answers to most of my questions. 1) Outside of romantic Mortification, at what age or developmental stage can Mortification begin to occur, if trauma began in the first year of life? 2) I understand that the magnitude of the Mortification decides the unconscious and conscious processing time before the inevitable "internalize/externalize" stage, but can this period comprise years, even decades? 3) Can situational amnesia, or delusions multiply or grow in magnitude during either the unconscious or conscious processing stage, or can they manifest or increase in magnitude or frequency during the "internalize/externalize" stage, or neither? Thank you again for your time.k
1. Theoretically, when narcissistic structures are fully formed, at age 2; 2. No. A year would probably be an inordinately slow processing time. But the memory (post-traumatic trace) persists and grudges are forever; 3. Dissociation is a constant feature. Mortification occurs because dissociation fails, overwhelmed by events.
I came figure out is I'm a narcissist or is my once fiance is. I was dx with bpd, one year after meeting him. Now we are separated and it hurts so bad. Is there any way we could pay you to to help us? Please let me know is we could zoom or something. (I have seen so many of your videos) and that's how I met my current bwana lives 40000 miles away. Ugh
I wonder if this is why my PD spouse goes from passive aggressive to outright aggressive when he gets put on SSRI's, the level of threats of physical violence seem dose dependent . Of coarse his doctors up his dose when he gives feed back the his spouse says he is getting worse on the meds. The escalation got bad enough that I got him to move out put up a perimeter fence with an electric gate and got a trained Doberman. I work in animal behavior , I only wish people cold respond to behavior change conditioning as well as most animals.
I did the switch of self state last spring. I was vivacious histrionic in a share d fantasy, found out he was seeing three women and in a day I was telling friends I feared I'd kill myself.
So do they hoover the intimate partner that they pushed away into seeing another person? Even if the intimate partner had made it known that the Narc is the one that drove them away?
Hello Dr Vaknin, Let me start by saying I consume many of your videos and your content has helped educate me on several topics. Thank you for all your work. I want to ask if you are familiar with the work of Christopher Lasch, specifically the Culture of Narcissism published in '78. I would appreciate a shared dialog between you and someone like C Derrick Varn, to gather your thoughts around Lasch' s concepts put forward in his book. I am also curious about your thoughts regarding the work of Foucault's History of Madness, but that is a whole other discussion not entirely relevant to your channel. Thank you again Dr Vaknin, and much appreciation for your work from down here in Texas.
Do mortifying events differ from one narcissit to another based on their different past abuse as a child? Meaning what mortifies one narcissit is not a must to mortify another narcissit. Also, based on the mirroring of the natcissit is mortifying reversible if the source of mortification denies this event and describe it to the narcissit in a manner that he would mirror or adopt their point of view as a new positive reliable memory that would reinforce the old memory before mortification
Dr. Vankin, you’re fascinating! Truly the best at this topic. Can mortification lead to a suicide? Can you explain narcissistic and borderline personality disorder and suicide? I unfortunately had to encounter it and I want to understand it better. Many thanks! 🙏
so trauma as such could only be an event, a sort of life threatening in early childhood and childhood, when us humans are most vulnerable without many resources to cope with reality?
There is no hoovering AFTER mortification. Hoovering is intended to prevent impending mortification, or to stop mortification in its tracks. But if the mortification is completed, it it had run its full course, hoovering is out of the question.
@Sam Vaknin I respect and admire your passion and intelligence. It’s amazing following you. Could you please respond to Who is/are the author/s and the Edition of the book Personality Disorders in Modern Times (or correct me if this title is not) which you mentioned in this video. And is/are there a book seller/s that you might recommend for the books that you mention in your videos? Thanks so much for your work. Please don’t stop
My son had no trauma. Trying to understand how he developed extreme narcissistic tendencies. I appreciate the new gut biome video. He had stomach surgery at 5 weeks of age. He's vomited almost every day of his 34 years of life.
Surgery can be traumatic for infants, especially if your son had a hospital stay and/or wasn't given proper anesthesia. (Especially when you factor in years of ongoing digestive pain.). Regardless of what happened to cause his personality disorder, I'm sorry for the both of you - this sort of thing is incredibly difficult.
Hello Mr Vaknin.May I ask you a question?After watching a while your videos seems to me you are the best option to ask,what its being bothering me ages now and cant find anywhere answears to my question nowhere.Is it epilepsy somehow connected to NPD?Or the epilepsy medication can worsten NPD symphtoms?I was with my ex for 12 long years.Now he was showing signs early "something" isnt right,just didnt know what.Then in 2015 he was diagnoside with Epilepsy and started taking medication.Almost right after hes behavior got really bad,he totaly became an even more controlling and abusive person.My house was like a total warzone every day.Hes behavior turned a whole 180 degree.I know epilepsy meds stimulating the brain and nerves system but totaly bring out from someone an almost unrecognisable person,that is something else.Kindly if you could answear me I would be very grateful.Thank you.
Thank you. Autocorrect is a particularly pernicious example of what I call "nanny computing": they are the ones to decide what it is that you are trying to type!
This is also a trait of a codependent, taking responsibility for abuse done to them by the narcissist in order to try to fix things. They get assaulted by the narcissist, the codependent at first explains this is hurtful and why, then they get gaslit by the narcissist and then the codependent apologizes to the narcissist for the abuse done to them. It’s utterly crazy making. The codependent then becomes hyper vigilant to make sure they do not trigger the narcissist constantly scanning the environment, moods, actions of the narcissist to avoid abuse.
My mind gets relief from blaming myself or seeking out what my problem is, maybe I'm the one with the problem... For some reason these thoughts make me feel better than the truth that he is the problem and he is unable to truly love me.
Yes I think I have Stockholm syndrome as a result
@@kellye9565 we don't want to believe that it is real. There must be a solution. If we change, they will love us. So painful to realize it never seems to change
This was me for many years. Looking back I realize that I was surviving a home with 3 narcissist and a large middle eastern community. I am still a little hyper vigilant but creating distance.
I did exactly this with my narc. I fought back initially about the abuse. She made a huge deal about something that didn't even happen and decided to "break up". I didn't know why we were breaking up so I went to her to talk about it. I ended up apologizing for no reason. After that I conditioned myself to not react to her mood swings and I was fearful about arguing with her. I started reducing my responses to asking about her feelings instead of questioning her crazy tantrums just so the abuse would stop.
Almost gave into a Hoover. This video saved me. Thank you Prof. Vaknin
I swear my mind gets blown every time I watch these videos. It perfectly puts into words what I knew was silently happening deep down. Truly amazing!
A close relative, who does not have a diagnosis but perfectly fits the description of narcissism, recently baffled me. Her only supply that she has left was gone out of the city for several days and she wrecked a havoc around house, she ran outside behaving like a crazy person, had psychosis, was hearing some inner voice and following it, had paranoya, was running into cars. Was transferred to hospital and diagnosed with schizofrenia. She does not seem to remember (or is not telling) what was going on in her head. Meanwhile, I do not believe that she has schizofrenia, I think she reaized that she was losing her supply. Could this have been an episode of mortification? Is it really possible that this behavior still perfectly fits into narcissistic collapse?
I think I finally understand why my son has depression, and that depression is a mechanism he deals with his mortification over being rejected by someone he thought was inferior than him…and other life problems (debts and unemployment) …
If he thought them inferior how did he call for acceptance?
Miss you? Yes, wished you lived next door. Wish also you had access to the trio of my husband, bro, and sis. All alive in their late 70's. All abused so horrifically by both parents, physically, emotionally, verbally. All are highly intelligent and gifted. A goldmine for you in particular. Ive known these 3 for 20yrs. Ive endured 'him' and am waiting for the day of his cremation to set me free. Thanks to you for your sharing the psychology behind it all. A topic Ive always been fascinated with. The mind and why people do what they do. The rabbit hole you take me down is delicious. All in the comfort of my home. All free to access. I cant do justice describing the contribution to humanity you are accomplishing. Dankeschöne.
I bet your story is worth hearing. Thank you so much for sharing 🇬🇧xx
@@anastasiavonbeaverhausen5443 i do have the insiders info. But the damages! He used/uses it all for gaining sympathy. It worked 20 yrs ago. No less than a thousand hours listening to him. Now i am part of the 'story'. And its ugly. Thanks to SV I am 'educated' It would be a contribution to humanity...what those 3 siblings have lived...and undoubtably passed on...im stil dealing with healing, which likely wont be complete till he is cremated. He still 'lives' here.
@@firebunnii3536 because im 68, my equine, lgd's and pets...dont pack up. He wont forfeit paradise acres either.
So on target. I first thought my partner was bipolar. But as things went on, I met various versions of the man, often watching him switch in the same day over nothing, blaming, shaming and showing paranoia all the way. It so confused me but you cleared things up so well.
Vaknin..I miss you. I broke my engagement and left. Yet as you said I now don't want anything to do with intimacy. As yes it was a colourful life. Today I realised that I chose to be a victim else there would be no abuser. Thank you so much.
you didn't choose to be victim they prey n thats not on you.
I don't want intimacy now either. I loved my narc so much..
@@misscontroversy2076 you
I don't want it anymore either. I really cared for her
Wow. . somehow gives me new appreciation of art. Especially the old masters.
You are my favorite professor, it's true ,I've learned alot from you ,was married to a narcissist for 56 yrs ,and it was very difficult, he has died in 2020 ,I've got my control back ,and run my own life now ,life is good ,I'm getting well more and more ,thank you Sam 🙏 ❤!
🙏👌🏼👑🎩you're an very astonishing strong woman🌹
Happy for you
My ex would usually seem desperate to keep me from talking at all. As soon as I would attempt to say a word,he would immediately speak over me. I always had the sense that he feared I would say something that he could not forgive. Perhaps he feared I would make a statement that would lead to mortification.
You really do have a good sense of humor
The narcissist has only primitive defense mechanisms from which to react. Much like a snake. And like snakes with split tongues, they tell you one thing and mean another. Tasting your reactions. Thank you for this talk.
Well they are the serpent seed. Something happened between Satan and Eve. Cain and Abel were "brothers" but had different fathers. They were of two fathers. Bloodline war. The narc I was involved with had very peculiar obstetric anomalies including weird twin stuff...she was even curious about my blood type. Cain was the original narcissist... these people are different. They are a different species. They are not of the Adamic race
@schwiftycats I love the Bible and your theory. I’ll have to read about the birth of Cain and his relationship with Able with this perspective in mind.
Yes Vaknin. I missed you since yesterday.
I have a question but rather than posting it, I will search the channel.
Great idea.
Admit it, he simply outsmarted you 😂
Good Lord, you’re outstanding!
Yes Dr Vaknin I miss you too. Even if I stray away for a while so always come back 🤣
@9:11 i used to call my ex an emotional burn victim because his responses would be so disproportionate to the circumstances. then he would swing back into what i also called an emotional mute. it was exhausting.
I think it would be interesting if you did a video on cultural psychological consequences of rampant narcisissm in the world today and elaborated more between the very real difference of people who could be diagnosed as narcisists, and people who've only learned narcisism/narcisistic tendencies through today's culture (and family of course) and cant think their way out of it, but are capable of looking into the figurative mirror, as opposed to the full on narcissist. Thanks!
Good idea, thanks.
@@samvaknin no problem, thanks for your unwavering truth and determination to not pander to peoples egos like an overprotective mother.
Thank you very much profesor! ✊🏼
You really are my favorite professor 😊 I feel like we get the unvarnished truth from you. Thank you.
Unreal. What a genius Prof Vaknin is. Outstanding explanation.
I love you Sam Vaknin!
you just have described with details what goes on in the mutual or co discarding situation and in a way absolves the people involved.
you used a biblical verse that I quote often "Father forgive them for they not know what they are doing"
I felt affirmed when you said that.Gracias!!!!
Vaknin! Been with you the whole day but i miss you still!
Sam, I'd like to contribute myself to your pipeline of 1800+ case studies of narcissism. Everything you said in this video, like in many others, rings so true about myself. Internal mortification after being cheated on has brought me into states of psychosis.
To be included in the database, you need to be officially diagnosed with NPD.
Psychosis, does this always happen ?
Me and you both bro
I found really interesting how you explained the processes after mortification and their connection to the different self states. I was trying for years to understand how psychology could utilize such rigid constructs in diagnosing and treating personality disorders. For me and my experience your explanation is simple and straight forward and with great potential. Thank you for opening up this path of thought!
The insight on all of the shifting from trait to trait all under the umbrella of personality disorder is genius and you’re explaining so clearly here. This is brilliant and lightbulbs kept pinging as you described my parents!
Thank you so much Professor Sam!!! Aloha🌺 from Kona, Hawaii.. “got it kiddos”
Yes! you are the best professor! Thank you always
This is absolutely brilliant
He put Alpha as my phone's name at one point. Confused the F out of me until now. He externalized his mortification and actually believed I was in charge. He thought I was the one that destroyed everything and made him depressed when in reality I literally couldn't have done less. He put a stop to every one of our plans. He went so far as to tell me he could not or would not take me places I begged to go-that we both said we wanted to go to-then blamed me that we weren't going. It also explains why he absolutely COULD NOT take responsibility for anything or accept anything as fact that went against his narrative though it's plain as day to everyone else-it would have forced him to internalize his mortification to do that.
Unfortunately this became very public, and everyone close to him forced him to see the error of his ways and internalize it. Now he has no other options, and sees me as the idealized person I was (I hadn't changed & really was perfect for him.) Don't get me wrong, if things go south again I'm out. He already showed me how replaceable I am when he went from Grade A supply of all 4 S's to just the 1 when I became ill (Sadistic supply of course.) Supply addicts used to a high quality fix go into withdrawal if the quality goes down. As good as the good supply was, that's how bad the bad supply must be due to the increased tolerance level.
Vaknin!!! We MISS YOU!!!!
So so helpful Sam. I will continue to research mortification and that process and especially find it helpful here in how it links into the hovering process. Absolutely saving my are today this clip. Bless you!!!
Wow
Exhausting.
Just tonight i had a visit/attempted hoover from ex bpd... After someone told me last week he cried and talked about his regrets in his behaviors towards me, that he knew i loved him and he felt terrible about all he'd done and he knew he messed me up and i'd probablly never be the same. That he was in bliss,high, like magic when we were together, and he felt so much sorrow... That he didnt know why he hurt the most amazing relationship he'd ever had... That They sat and cried and talked for 2 hours in the apple orchard. !! What!!? He put me through such a painful rollercoaster, turned my perfect love into love/hate/love/hate... Its true i will never be the same! Mourned the loss of him like a death! Such heinous sadness! I will never grieve so hard again as long as i live im positive. So friggin complicated and sad. I cannot believe after he ditched me and 6 weeks of me constantly trying to heal...now,now he comes back! If i hadnt been told of his regretting crying episode, i'd never even have thought he cared about our time together! I almost gave in tonight., to the physical comfort, familiarity, amazing unreal sex... I came soooo close, but all the terrible grievous nights of the past couple months,just agony, all that wouldve been for nothing, just to have to heal again! He knows how good he had it! The one that got away! I wouldve adored him forever. I will always love him.
Im just so confused about his break down and voice of reason and his feeling of actual loss,with his cousin in the apple orchard!! Wtf? He's definitely bpd with npd comorbidities. A hot mess. But it was wild to hear that he shared with her that it was like magic, and that he loved me and wished he could change his crazy actions.! Sounded almost human!! He mourned the loss of me! Like i did him. Confusing. Didnt think he was capable of that much introspection! As he is a selfish grumpy mean inconsiderate person. ((And no,, he did not think i would know of his breakdown and crying regret and sharing vulnerability with his cousin))
You are very good at explaining this terrible reason when you are in the presence of a real alien that is how I would describe them they are not human they are not real they are like a stuffed doll or a piece of wood not of this world when they make you think they are very with the world
paused at 23mins. Its the closet explanation or explaining of something so I look forward to pressing play and continue listening.
Hello Prof. I really enjoy listening to you
Dear Prof. Vaknin ,
what happens to the external object that has been re-idealised with much effort by the narcissist if the former partner does not react to hoovering attempts, i.e. the attempt fails?
Does it remain idealised until the next attempt or does this threaten the grandiosity of the narcissist and is devalued again and is needed to be re-idealized in the case of next hoovering attempt?
Does it make a difference whether it was a functional hoovering, hoovering to rebuild grandiosity, to punish, to domesticate or for revenge?
Thx
Failed hoovering leads to cognitive dissonance and to a delusional devaluation and discard (the narcissist convinces himself that he did not want you in the first place and that he is the one who has discarded you).
@@samvaknin thanks for your quick response
Recasting it. Exactly.
How to coparent with a mortified narcissist?
This is the video i was hoping to find.
It explains why my ex (we parallel parent) went into a rage and then (for the first time is his life) apologised to me after i told him.off like I would to a child.
I was wondering why he apologised.
Seems because he possibly has no supply so he has to keep me on side otherwise he will suffer mortification.
I accepted his apology and moved on. In the past, before watching Dr Vaknin, I would have ignored him for weeks and I now know that will enrage him which i can't be bothered to deal with anymore.
I've grown enough to just tell him off and carry on. Like a with a child, you hold no grudges. He is not well.
What happens if you don’t let the narcissist in when he tries to hoover you? Telling them you are not a play toy and he is a weak man. I am assuming another mortification? Then what?
True, my husband would switch. I couldn't understand why he would do this ,took me years to notice what he would do ,but notice the switching probably every month or sometimes every 2 months,! So interesting 🤔
Vaknin I do miss you! You’re in my ears every day at the moment. Your videos are on fire this week! My possibly (but apparent from this video) not mortified covert narc hoovered me only yesterday... missing my snap shot from a year ago when we lived in a different country during our shared fantasy! Before covid sent him into a spin lol and he started his devaluation phase in full power! I got discarded... now I’m over it, guess what! He’s back 😅I’ll have to do a better job at mortification next time! Any tips?
Thanks for this video! Perfect timing Sam
@Prof. Vaknin ,
when narcissist says: "As soon as you don't play the way other people want all of the sudden you're all bad".
Would that be internal or external mortification?
Could be both?
On one hand he is blaming himself for people treating him as bad object because he is not playing by their rules.
On other hand he is blaming people for treating him bad and leaving him because actually he is all good and no need to change.
My god I've been trying to find a reason why she was coming for me so hard. Because she'd never admit it. This is really sad but I do believe anyone can make changes but I don't think some really know what it means to be better. As a borderline, I've found myself laughing at people in distress until I started realizing how dumb I look when I'm in distress. I think therapy, weed and medication helped me slow down and gain empathy for others and myself. "No skin and primitive responses" are exactly what I felt wanting her away from me.
29:43 so would you agree that the switching reverts back to what they started with after the mortification ends? like does the grandiose narcissist go back to grandiose after he f’d things up as a borderline?
44:10
I don’t think this abuse will make me conform to anything in the future. All i know is that if this is Love-i dont want it. ever. Again.
Search the channel.
Would a " nervous breakdown" cause an ordinary person to have a mortification? Still learning.
yes we miss you
My ex husband is a diagnosed narcissist. We are currently separated. He had a rough few weeks following the initial separation and now he seems very well settled in to a new role as Really Great Dad (every other weekend) and Super Fair Ex which is *helpful* in its own weird way (present for the kids, getting the info for the mediation ready). He is most definitely hoovering me right now - attentive and helpful, just an all around Great Guy making the transition easy. My question is this: will my playing along with his external projections benefit me for an extended time as I’m helping to reaffirm his grandiosity, or will he quickly and viciously flip and punish me?
If I have information that could expose him - and he knows it, is it worth playing that card close to my chest, to keep him from destroying my life?
@@lukabarba2716 when I discovered that he was planning on starting his own business with his new supply, and that he had several law suits against him, I filed for divorce in order to protect my assets.
He was mortified, has completely discarded me, thank goodness. No more hoovering. He’s maintained his front for the kids as they are prime narcissistic supply every other weekend.
I’m still holding my info close so that if I need to use it during negotiations I can.
That said, I’d recommend playing along for as long as you can. Once you know that he’s playing a game, that he is and will continue to lie, you will have so much more time and space on your hands to plan.
I left my boyfriend for someone else. I broke up with him by phone, he was abroad studying. I got married and moved abroad. Never been contacted by him. So hoovering never happened. What mechanism can he used then? I searched social media not long ago, found out that he had been married 3 times, and have kids with all of them.
what I thought were just 'disappearances' with attempts to reconnect were really hoovers. So now I see our relationship was worse than I thought, and on a different timeline than what I figured. I think he contacted me when he was mortified by someone else and needed a fix. He would contact me at times when I would be unlikely to answer, as I had already confronted him that I was still asleep at those times. He just wanted a message from me at some point to soothe him. It eventually got to the point where he wouldn't answer those messages. He just wanted them.
I struggle with the HARD FACT he was & had supply women on his contracts at work ....& then as if by MAGIC he returned BACK N forth to me over a 38 year period having DISCARDED them the way he FINALLY DISCARDED ME but I FINALLY GOT HIM GONE AFTER NEARLY 40 YEARS ....THE LIES ABUSE CHEATING MOODS THEN THE HOOVER RETURNS ITS ALL SO CLEAR NOW THE LIFE THE RAT LIVED SAD SAD FKR ....
I think im narcissist, what can i do?
A video about the distinction between style and disorder would be much appreciated
Coming.
Sam, yes it's true I can and do miss you....You said "Realization never happens if the the former intimate partner mortifies the narcissist"...1:37 time frame. I don't understand, you said it in passing but important. So if I the intimate partner (me)stands up to the narc and tells the former what she's has done wrong and the Narc. comes back to hoover??? Why? I caught her cheating and went around interviewing are circle of friends who knew more then me....This caused mortification because she was exposed....
It caused her injury, not mortification. There is no hoovering if mortification is completed.
@@samvaknin
Watching this I assumed I caused mortification in the way of outing his abuse to others, he actually stated that I embarrassed him, and that he was afraid of me. It was a back and forth of both of us discarding each other. Then, I finally disgarded him and went complete no contact, 6 months and counting. He reached out to me twice thus far. I will never respond, I'm to afraid to cause I think he just wants to hurt me.
@@MrsOctober-kc5de I recently went no contact. Blocked him on my phone and social media. Do you think he still will find a way to reach out or finally let go?
@@MrsOctober-kc5de your gut is right ...he does.....
Genius 🦄
Can a narcissist be mortified by a target not responding to desperate Hoover’s and if the target was totally off social media during no contact
If you feel like you have some either covert narcissistic or borderline traits, is there anyway to heal that other than just trying to become self aware and take accountability?
Look into DBT.
What do you have to say if both parties discard each other at the same time say in a traumatic argument where both parties are mortified and both are either narcissist or borderline or viscera
Miss you Dr. Vaknin? How can I when I have such an amazing snapshot of you! But seriously, I do have some questions regarding Mortification, although the lecture is very thorough and I did watch multiple sections repeatedly to get the answers to most of my questions. 1) Outside of romantic Mortification, at what age or developmental stage can Mortification begin to occur, if trauma began in the first year of life? 2) I understand that the magnitude of the Mortification decides the unconscious and conscious processing time before the inevitable "internalize/externalize" stage, but can this period comprise years, even decades? 3) Can situational amnesia, or delusions multiply or grow in magnitude during either the unconscious or conscious processing stage, or can they manifest or increase in magnitude or frequency during the "internalize/externalize" stage, or neither? Thank you again for your time.k
1. Theoretically, when narcissistic structures are fully formed, at age 2; 2. No. A year would probably be an inordinately slow processing time. But the memory (post-traumatic trace) persists and grudges are forever; 3. Dissociation is a constant feature. Mortification occurs because dissociation fails, overwhelmed by events.
@@samvaknin Thank you Dr. Vaknin for the clarification.k
I came figure out is I'm a narcissist or is my once fiance is. I was dx with bpd, one year after meeting him. Now we are separated and it hurts so bad. Is there any way we could pay you to to help us? Please let me know is we could zoom or something. (I have seen so many of your videos) and that's how I met my current bwana lives 40000 miles away. Ugh
I wonder if this is why my PD spouse goes from passive aggressive to outright aggressive when he gets put on SSRI's, the level of threats of physical violence seem dose dependent . Of coarse his doctors up his dose when he gives feed back the his spouse says he is getting worse on the meds. The escalation got bad enough that I got him to move out put up a perimeter fence with an electric gate and got a trained Doberman. I work in animal behavior , I only wish people cold respond to behavior change conditioning as well as most animals.
I did the switch of self state last spring. I was vivacious histrionic in a share d fantasy, found out he was seeing three women and in a day I was telling friends I feared I'd kill myself.
Brilliant
So what is the difference between mortification and anxious- attachment style?
Mortification is an event.
haha, Vaknin, we miss you! ;)
So do they hoover the intimate partner that they pushed away into seeing another person? Even if the intimate partner had made it known that the Narc is the one that drove them away?
Depends if the infidelity involved mortification or not.
@@samvaknin Thank you for your response and for all you are doing to help educate us. You are the Best! 🙏
Sir Vaknin We Miss You 😄
I miss you.
I miss you 😀
Hello Dr Vaknin,
Let me start by saying I consume many of your videos and your content has helped educate me on several topics. Thank you for all your work.
I want to ask if you are familiar with the work of Christopher Lasch, specifically the Culture of Narcissism published in '78. I would appreciate a shared dialog between you and someone like C Derrick Varn, to gather your thoughts around Lasch' s concepts put forward in his book.
I am also curious about your thoughts regarding the work of Foucault's History of Madness, but that is a whole other discussion not entirely relevant to your channel.
Thank you again Dr Vaknin, and much appreciation for your work from down here in Texas.
Search the channel.
Do mortifying events differ from one narcissit to another based on their different past abuse as a child? Meaning what mortifies one narcissit is not a must to mortify another narcissit. Also, based on the mirroring of the natcissit is mortifying reversible if the source of mortification denies this event and describe it to the narcissit in a manner that he would mirror or adopt their point of view as a new positive reliable memory that would reinforce the old memory before mortification
Dr. Vankin, you’re fascinating! Truly the best at this topic. Can mortification lead to a suicide? Can you explain narcissistic and borderline personality disorder and suicide? I unfortunately had to encounter it and I want to understand it better. Many thanks! 🙏
Vaknin.
@@samvaknin LMAO 😂
What ouside signs do i have to indicate if a narcissist is mortified and if that person is going to hoover or not?
yes, when you feel mortified there is noting stoping you t act in any way... it s like... freedom
Can you elaborate ?
Vaknin, I miss you
We miss you.😜
so trauma as such could only be an event, a sort of life threatening in early childhood and childhood, when us humans are most vulnerable without many resources to cope with reality?
What if the somatic narcissist is external mortificatied but does not hoover you?
Why do you ever think of that? Move on! The narcissist already did that to the next and “better” source of supply!
There is no hoovering AFTER mortification. Hoovering is intended to prevent impending mortification, or to stop mortification in its tracks. But if the mortification is completed, it it had run its full course, hoovering is out of the question.
@Sam Vaknin I respect and admire your passion and intelligence. It’s amazing following you. Could you please respond to Who is/are the author/s and the Edition of the book Personality Disorders in Modern Times (or correct me if this title is not) which you mentioned in this video. And is/are there a book seller/s that you might recommend for the books that you mention in your videos? Thanks so much for your work. Please don’t stop
Theodore Millon
@@samvaknin Thank you! 🙂
@@samvaknin Which edition please?
Are you for real? The latest, of course!
My son had no trauma. Trying to understand how he developed extreme narcissistic tendencies. I appreciate the new gut biome video. He had stomach surgery at 5 weeks of age. He's vomited almost every day of his 34 years of life.
sounds like his everyday is traumatic.
one really bad hangover can cause damage and trauma too.
throwing up everyday…..? 34 years….? I cant imagine
and the denial to his trauma... equally traumatic. @@hannahcando6496
Surgery can be traumatic for infants, especially if your son had a hospital stay and/or wasn't given proper anesthesia. (Especially when you factor in years of ongoing digestive pain.). Regardless of what happened to cause his personality disorder, I'm sorry for the both of you - this sort of thing is incredibly difficult.
Hello Mr Vaknin.May I ask you a question?After watching a while your videos seems to me you are the best option to ask,what its being bothering me ages now and cant find anywhere answears to my question nowhere.Is it epilepsy somehow connected to NPD?Or the epilepsy medication can worsten NPD symphtoms?I was with my ex for 12 long years.Now he was showing signs early "something" isnt right,just didnt know what.Then in 2015 he was diagnoside with Epilepsy and started taking medication.Almost right after hes behavior got really bad,he totaly became an even more controlling and abusive person.My house was like a total warzone every day.Hes behavior turned a whole 180 degree.I know epilepsy meds stimulating the brain and nerves system but totaly bring out from someone an almost unrecognisable person,that is something else.Kindly if you could answear me I would be very grateful.Thank you.
@soft kisclosure thank you👍
Yes , I miss you. Do you feel better now😂😂😂
Can you please slowly tell us the title of that book. Or write it out. Lance Sperry? You said it very quickly
Len Sperry Handbook of Diagnosis and Treatment of DSM-5 Personality Disorders
Thank you. Autocorrect is a particularly pernicious example of what I call "nanny computing": they are the ones to decide what it is that you are trying to type!