You guys only dislike it because it's a Johto starter but when you start with chikorita in other regions besides Johto the grass starter will be useful
Meganium has potential in Johto, it's just not very obvious. I used Chikorita in a hardcore nuzlocke and it actually does very well as a core with Geodude who is easily the best early Johto pokemon. Picking Chikorita made the rival pick Cyndaquil so Geodude easily soloed the rival battles unlike if he had Totodile or Chikorita, and the pair did really well against Whitney as the combination of Bayleef's Poison Powder with Dig from Geodude turned an infamous Nuzlocke killer into a cake walk. Meganium also does really well against Clair's Kingdra. But yeah, Meganium would probably be one of the most popular pokemon ever if it was the Kanto grass type. Not only would you be dominating the game with it, but you'd be dominating the game with a dinosaur!
Funny because my first Johto play through was actually picking Chikorita, realising it sucks, and beating the whole game with mostly a graveler. It's truly amazing against the first 3 gyms, which are easily the most difficult ones in the region.
@@artimist0315 Oh yeah. The Geodude line is crazy good in Johto. My entire decision to pick Chikorita for that challenge was it had the best synergy with what I considered my actual starter.
Chikorita isn't a bad starter it's just the region it originated in was so Anti-Grass that it struggles in the run. But in Kanto it would have a good run for the first 3 gyms struggle with the 4th then get back on track for the rest of the run
One of the problems of chikorita being a pure grass type on gen 1, is that it would struggle to pass through the viridian forest, with the amount of poison stings of bug catcher's weedles.
Poison sting is a really terrible move, especially in the early game when all the bug types have low base attack. A Chikorita spamming tackle the whole way through wouldn't have much trouble.
@@G1nger519 I don't know you, but I really like to use my starter, if you're playing that game for the first time and you find hard to pass through the first forest, you may think your mon is weak and stop using him, remember that this was the first game
I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again; Meganium should get Flower Veil. It’s a great ability, giving all Grass type users and allies an immunity to non-volatile status conditions and any non-self inflicted stat changes, giving it a very unique defensive profile. However, no current users of Flower Veil are Grass type, and it only makes sense to give it to the Pokémon that not only needs it, but also makes the most sense considering it literally has a flower on its neck.
Never thought about it but that's really clever. Flower veil is such an underwhelming ability in singles so it's not obvious it would work really well with meganium. The stat change immunity is not that valuable on such an offensively lacking pokemon, but the status immunity is huge. This alone won't make it excellent but it will definitely make it viable in lower tiers, and with the correct stat redistribution and move pool adjustment it can really make meganium a great Pokémon.
It's going to take much more than that to make Meganium good. I would give it Pollen Puff, Revival Blessing, and various doubles-oriented moves to give it use in VGC.
@@shiruotakuno28 One pick I’d absolutely give it: Lovely Kiss. Give it a Sleep move that works on other Grass types and keep Spore as the rare mushroom-exclusive move.
@@artimist0315 The stat change immunity does mean that it gains immunity to moves like Parting Shot (thus preventing the switch), it can use Swords Dance with a built-in Clear Amulet, and it can’t be slowed by moves like Icy Wind. So while it’s mainly for giving those boosts to other Grass types like Ogerpon or Rillaboom, it’s not exactly weak on Meganium itself.
I would argue that Chikorita is actually better than Treeko in Hoenn. 1. He got Razor Leaf before Roxanne while Treeko stuck with absorb or bullet seed. If you think bullet seed is good. In gen 3 it has 10 base power. 2. Treeko learn mega Drain at LV 26. Yikes. And didn't learn mega Drain as grovyle 3. Speed didn't matter as much as people think in in game playthrough. Especially since in Hoenn you still got badge Boost. It's easy to outspeed enemy with 0 speed ev investment.
But I thought the Tepig line was loved by all purely just for being the Fire-type option 'cause they're all a bunch of pyromaniacs and Charizard simps.
It would probably be the same for Falkner, but better against Bugsy, Chuck, Koga, and Bruno due to it's Poison typing giving it and extra set of resistances
Probably not much better since grass types as a whole are awful in Johto, but it would at least have STAB Sludge Bomb in HGSS (it can’t learn that move in Gen 2 for some reason).
I think it is obvious that Chikorita was designed to be a bulky Pokémon rather than a powerhouse, having access to moves like Reflect, Light Screen and Synthesis. If Toxic was available much earlier it could potentially stall anything other than Poison and Steel-types. It is still great to see how would it do in every Gen besides I and II though. Now I wonder which Grass starter in existence would have actually performed the best in Johto, I think Turtwig and Rowlet have a chance to work decently there.
WARNING: LONG POST as I overanalyze a probably worthless what-if because it's interesting. I do think the Rowlet line in particular would do noticeably better. Now: + I'm gonna compare accounting for both GSC and HGSS (this will mostly just matter because of moves -e.g. Leaf Blade exists in HGSS, so Decidueye gets to learn it there, but not in GSC where it didn't exist yet). + I'll have to assume level-up learnset adjustments are made, mainly in GSC, because Rowlet line learns a lot of things, including STABs, that just didn't exist yet (e.g. Pluck and Leaf Blade; just assume Dartrix gets Wing Attack instead or something). + I will, however, assume Decidueye gets to keep their signature Spirit Shackle because it's too characteristic to not retrofit-- this only really matters in HGSS due to Physical/Special split, as you already get Shadow Ball from Morty which is the same power, and is Physical in GSC. Overall not _too_ important since Decidueye's offenses have very little difference, but saying it just in case. Team Rocket: As Rowlet and Dartrix, we mostly just have the same type interactions. As Decidueye, Ghost leaves us neutral to Poison. We also might get the drop on the occasional Drowzee or Machop. Rival: We can do a bit more. Mainly, we have better moves for Haunter and Kadabra. Falkner: About the same. For GSC I guess at least we can't get accuracy-dropped by Mud Slap. Bugsy: Flying turns around this matchup. Albeit we probably just have Peck as of yet. Still better though. Whitney: I guess we're worse off here, since we're now weak to Rollout. Morty: We can hit things with neutral STAB now. Assuming we're basing it off the Ultra learnset, we'd already have Ominous Wind in HGSS, so that might do something for us. Chuck: Now we have type advantage (either offensive or defensive depending on whether we've fully evolved yet) on the whole Gym and not just Poliwrath. Jasmine: About the same. Pryce: We likely already have Decidueye; no double weakness at least. We probably still have just Razor Leaf, so our odds don't look too good for the exchange of super-effective strikes. In GSC we hold up better than Meganium, having virtually the same Special bulk to take the Ice hits (just slightly less HP) but much better offenses. In HGSS Meganium probably does better due to stronger STAB and better Physical bulk for Dewgong's Ice Shard and Piloswine's Ice Fang. Clair: We can accomplish a bit more thanks to neutral secondary STAB, but are still unlikely to get too far. Will: Ghost STAB makes a big difference. Jynx and Xatu are faster, but the first Xatu in HGSS and both of them in GSC lack Flying moves (beware of Me First on HGSS first Xatu though), and HGSS Jynx has to use Ice Punch off her low Attack stat, so we're mostly still alright. Plus in HGSS, we'd have Sucker Punch by level up or Shadow Sneak via relearner by now, so priority is a handy option. Koga: Ghost makes us neutral to Poison, and the secondary STAB is handy for everything not named Forretress (against whom being immune to Explosion can be noteworthy, though). We still lose to Crobat, however. Bruno: He can't use STABs until either Machamp or GSC Hitmonlee uses Foresight, so that's an improvement. Karen: We can actually do something against Vileplume and Gengar now (the latter has no Shadow Ball but beware of Destiny Bond; priority might help here too). We're still weak to Murkrow and Houndoom, and now also to Umbreon, but being able to do something useful at all in this fight is a net win. Lance: Mostly the same, unfortunately. Not detailing Kanto Leaders too much barring Blue (because I consider his fight more notable) and Surge (because his case is pretty interesting) but: we still have clear advantage on Brock and Misty, we now get the drop on Sabrina, we have more options against Erika (especially in HGSS if we already learned Brave Bird), we still lose to Blaine, and Janine is basically Koga again minus the Forretress (Explosion immunity matters more now that it's her Weezing carrying it). Surge: We do better than Meganium because we can bypass his Light Screen with Physical STAB (even if we don't retrofit Shackle, we have Shadow Ball in GSC and Leaf Blade in HGSS, though in HGSS retrofitting Shackle does give us the edge of not triggering Static), are immune to all of his coverage moves except HGSS Magneton's Mirror Shot and can't be hit at all by his two GSC Electrode. Blue: Bad matchups on Arcanine and Pidgeot, good on Rhydon and neutral (GSC)/bad (HGSS due to Ice Fang) on Gyarados stay mostly similar (on HGSS Rhydon we no longer fear Megahorn, but he probably gets OHKO'd anyways; on GSC Gyarados we have slight edge due to Physical STAB). The interesting one is Alakazam (GSC)/Machamp (HGSS); the first is free, the second has neutral Stone Edge on our weak Defense (I can't say "use Brave Bird" as the recoil will also add up; PP stall with Roost since we resist his other coverage? Crit chance though...) but at least can no longer Dynamic Punch us. Red: We have better ways to hit Venusaur now, especially in HGSS with Brave Bird; plus our Ghost typing makes Sludge Bomb neutral. In GSC Espeon is kinda free, and Snorlax can't hit us at all but will take forever to bring down. In HGSS, beware of Snorlax's Crunch. Did I just bother to make a massive post about something that's not happening? Yes. Do I regret it? No ;)
Reminder that Team Rocket’s robots in Jhoto were immune to every pokémon Ash had except Bayleaf. So Ash’s Bayleaf was his strongest Jhoto pokémon. Now imagine if it became Meganium.
Every other grass starter has better hidden abilities and are better suited for competitive battling. Meganium gets Flower Guard, which needs the sun to activate. Most agree that it's basically only good as a support, putting up screens and using aromatherapy, and possibly tossing out a toxic or two. I like that it learns Counter though, which can take an opponent by surprise if played properly
Looking over chikoritas gen 2 moves with an rby OU eye I see alot of potential. Razor leaf is ofcourse the best grass stab in rby. It has good selection of physical moves in body slam, eq and hyper beam (which combod with swords dance will be nutty). And if we presume synthesis would be swapped out for recover thats pretty good and it's even got a fair bit of other jank so that not every sets going to be the same.
I KNEW I WASNT TRIPPING OR HALLUCINATING ABOUT YOUR POKÉMON CHANNEL/VIDS I WAS LIKE WHERED THEY GO THEYRE FIRE 🔥 ONLY TH-camR TO BE MULTI-DIMENSIONAL, ZOMBIES/COD, MINECRAFT, POKÉMON, LETS GOOO PAT 👏 🎉
Pokemon just does support roles horribly. There's a very tiny niche for support pokemon and they prioritized the speed and power of battles with strong/obvious themes (I know stall teams exist) over making the battles a puzzle to figure out. There's often very few reasons aside from personal taste to not pick the pokemon that has both atk/s.atk and speed over 100 when optimizing a team
Since meganium is a dinosaur, I think it should have been dragon type. It would have its fair 4x weakness and I think a lot more people would’ve given it the love it deserved. Plus I always wanted a grass/dragon that wasn’t literally a fruit..
Dragon resists all of the starters' types plus Electric. Giving it to one starter wouldn't just tip the balance, but topple it. And giving it to all three starters wouldn't be much better, because then they would all be both weak and strong against eachother.
@rokurocarisu I would just point out that newest gen gives each starters 3rd evolution a potential advantage to its original weakness starter water-fighting>grass-dark>fire-ghost
The only way to make Chikorita a good Pokémon is giving it a new hidden ability, Solar Guard... This doubles both defenses under sun... And makes them inmune of fire type moves during the active sun...
There are people who think Meganium should've gained the Fairy typing. Some rom hacks have Meganium as Grass/Fairy. Yes that means it would be 4x weak to poison but would take neutral damage against bug and now be weak to Steel. But it would be immune to Dragon so if it were Grass/Fairy, it would be helpful with Chuck, Claire's Kingdra, some of Karen's dark types.
Neat idea to put meganium in other pokemon’s shoes, but in all cases I would rather either take the original grass starter, or pick up a wild encounter which would fit my needs more specifically for whatever purposes. ( Or just not run a grass type since other typings do the job aswell )
Hot take, but I'd argue chikorita might actually be better than treecko in gen 3, mostly because treecko's movepool sucks in gen 3. He doesn't get mega drain before evolving. Leaf blade is a great move, but until then you're stuck with absorb and some puny non-stab moves. Sceptile's speed and special attack stats are nice but Meganium's are on the right spot for it to doesn't matter as much, and the extra bulk is nice for the typical grass type sustain playstlye.
Its a hard mode for johto, but its hardcore cute and balanced, whereas the other lines are both cute and grow up into beasts, feraligatr can almost solo the game, and typhlosion is a spec. powerhouse sweeper. To be fair their all not bad, it just easily varies on the trainers prefference, and its ez to get a leafstone in johto so victreebell isnt a bad option and the gloom line offers you bellossom early as well. Still though, it doesnt learn sleep powder which is just bad for grass types
Most would suck. Grass types as a whole are awful in Johto. The only ones I see really being able to perform well are the non-Venusaur dual types (Torterra, Chesnaught and Decidueye) and that’s mostly because of their secondary STABs. Venusaur itself wouldn’t do much if at all better in Gen 2 but it has access to STAB Sludge Bomb by HGSS, so it’s doing better there at a minimum.
Really like this video!^^ I honestly thought that myself; grass may do poorly in Johto but it dominates in Kanto The reverse is true for fire types and that makes me wonder… Chikorita does good in Kanto but what about cyndaquil? And how would bulbasaur and charmander do in a Johto playthrough?
Ur right about Chikarita dealing with Psychic better than bulbasaur, but there are lots of poison types in Kanto too (which it’s weak to) and it isn’t actually that great regardless. I therefore disagree that Chikorita is better than bulbasaur
I think there's another question coming up when comparing Meganium to the other Grass starters: How would the others fare in Jotho? Is Jotho just intrinsically so anti-grass that they all suck or can some of the others edge out a niche for themselbes over Meganium?
Where did all the old videos on this channel go? Did you private/delete them for some reason Pat? Maybe just wanted a fresh start on the Pokémon content?
You forgot Black 2 and White 2 in gen 5. It's even worse then because Roxie's an early game Poison-Type Gym leader. It's like Gen 2 all over again. 2 gyms you're pok'e mon is weak to right a row, because after Roxie it's time for Burgh and his bugs again
Ancient Power is weak and you need to chain breed for it until Gen 4 when Tangela finally gets it via level up. Torterra gets STAB on it’s Earthquake, gets it significantly sooner, has access to the much better Rock Slide for flying types and is the bulkier of the two on the physical side.
@@yorecf9641 well still Chikorita line gets it and Bulbasaur does not. On top of that 30 is weak not 60 that is average. On top of that ancient power gets omniboost which makes pokemon drastically better.
@@wildresin6292 we’ll have to disagree on what’s weak and what isn’t but keep in mind that Ancient Power only has a 10% chance for an omni boost for its 5 uses. Frankly, Body Slam seems like a better option to me. No breeding, still hits decently hard and has a 30% chance for paralysis.
@@yorecf9641 why breeding is a factor anyway? Does Chikorita line have it in the move pool or not? Answer is yes. On top of that body slam is only 25 points stronger thats not a lot. Did you ever considered why ancient power has the same amount of pp as hyper beam which has power of 150 and not as many as cut which has power of 50? Ancient power is an op move. Its the same category as hyper beam blizard Thunder or fire blast. They all have its disadvantages hyper beam has a turn of recharge blizzard has a poor accuracy ancient power has a guaranteed damage and full accuracy. Only drawback is that not always it gives the omni boost. Thats the lesser drawback of em all. Used on something i call a proper wall (both defenses high and equal) turnes it into a proper tank. Plus if you use pp up or max on it its 8 pp
@@wildresin6292 I bring it up because of how late you get it. In HGSS it’s not as bad since you just have to wait until a Tangela gets it at level 33. In GSC, however, you need a member of the Totodile family to breed with a level 49 Omanyte, a level 55 Kabuto or a level 43 Corsola. It’s only after that can you breed a Chikorita with the move. Also, I am very much going to have to disagree with Ancient Power being on the same level as Fire Blast. It’s half the power and even if you max it out at 8 PP you can statistically not get a stat boost. Additionally, the extra 25 points for Body Slam is absolutely a lot. You’re the first person I’ve ever heard say a gap that wide isn’t.
She needs either a Variant or a Mega Evolution that gives her /Fairy. Because of both the Amile and Land Before Time, she's my favorite of the 3 starters in Gen 2, despite being the clear worst.
I always looked at starters as a way to pick your difficulty. Granted, professional players don't care about the regular game balance. But for the majority of people "competitiveness" shouldn't matter. It's nice to pick the most broken starter and just plow through the game. But it feels way more rewarding to beat the game on "higher difficulty". Heck the concept of challenge is the whole point people came up with nuzlockes.
Chikorita has Razor Leaf and Reflect before she even evolves. OK, Bulbasaur has Leech Seed, but also only Vine Whip, so I think both are matched. However, considering the quite broken set up of the Gen I games, Razor Leaf as well as any other High-Crit move was way too strong in Gen I, so with Chikorita you could have beaten basically everyone in early game.
Special was one stat in Gen 1. If meganium had 100 base special with razor leaf and bodyslam as level up moves and more than likely getting swords dance and counter, meganium would probably be a decently good pokemon in that meta... ignoring blizzard
Johto is incredibly unfriendly to grass types in general so most wouldn’t do much better. The only ones I see being of any use are Torterra, Chesnaught and Decidueye since their secondary typings are useful, though Chesnaught would also be bad for GSC if we don’t give it Cross Chop or at least Submission.
Serperior with Contrary ability is far better than anything Meganium can do. You make interesting points about Venusaur in Gen 1, but you forget to mention the Toxic-Leech Seed glitch makes Venusaur one of the best Pokemon for an in-game playthrough.
Gen 1 needed a good pure grass type. Meganium is a good pokemon, and it not being weak to Psychic would be a huge advantage over Venusaur, as well as Ground becoming not very effective. Plus in Gen 1 with special being 1 type, it's special would absolutely shine. The problem with gen 1 is, Blastoise is the only perfect starter as far as the actual in game capabilities. Charizard is flying but couldnt learn fly, he could only learn the weak Wing Attack. AND Ice did normal damage to fire then so, he gained Ice and Electric as super effective, gained rock as double super effective, and only lost ground as no longer damaging. Venusaur, yeah.. easily could get 1 shot killed by Blastoise OR Charizard. Blastoise is faster and can learn Ice moves of course so, he can 1 shot either other starter. Generally 1 Ice Beam would do the trick, maybe 2. On top of that, SURF.... Surf and Ice Beam is the most important move duo in Gen 1 especially. Earthquake is 5 stronger at 100/100 but, 5 less PP, is only a 1 time TM, can't hurt flying types, Surf and Ice Beam together? Come on. Throw in Hydro Pump and then Body Slam as the 4th move, you're solid with Blastoise.
it may perform better in those games but majority of those Grass types are also better than it in those gen, Also Better than Venusaur because of one fight? what about Agatha? and it's truely Gen 1 Lance's Dragons will spam agility on venusaur not so with Maganium
Also worth noting that it's easier to make a counterplay against Sabrina than against Koga since all three of his Koffings & Weezing have Self Destruct and his Muk is basically a Stall Chansey Prototype (Toxic, Minimize, a lot of HP...). Venosaur being a tanky pkmn, having access to drain moves and being immune to poison status is a hard counter in a gym that has a lot of room to things going South randomly. For the better and for the worst Sabrina's party is way more straight foward going only for same type moves (and a Venomoth for some reason) and Mr. Mime's Walls going away once you know him out.
Late game black and white post Brycen you get better mileage out of Dark, Fighting, ghost, psychic and flying types. Grass gets a little bettering Black and White 2. To be fair Fire and Water aren't anywhere near the best typings either Emboar gets more use out of it's fighting stab in the endgame and postgame.
Thats incorrect at Gen 1, ITs true that its a bit better vs Sabrina, but that just means worst case you switch the order and you are fine. Bulbasaur also gets body slam, so it can fight Alakazam anyway. At at the minimum, bulbasaur cant be poisoned which is surprisingly helpful. In return Bulbasaur does way better vs Lance due to the AI bug. If you move onto Gen 3 Kanto, Bulba makes better use of posion subtyping
I mean, for beating games is always better to fill up the team with pokemons that have two types. Just 3 pokemon and you have the type advantage over almost any type. Make one of those your starter - gen 1 and 2 will have almost nowhere to shine in future games.
This marks the first video of our new venture! I aim to bring you the highest quality Pokemon videos on the platform! Please enjoy ❤️🤩
- Pat
Chikorita finally getting the love it deserves 🙏
It rightfully deserves all the hate it gets, it's not a Bulbasaur or a Treecko or a Turtwig or a Chespin or a Rowket or a Grookey or a Sprigatito.
@@smb-c3po shut up chikorita hater get outta here
You guys only dislike it because it's a Johto starter but when you start with chikorita in other regions besides Johto the grass starter will be useful
@@PsychicJaylen Or they dislike it 'cause it's Chikorita.
I love chikorita. No one can tell me that chikorita isn't cute. ❤
Meganium has potential in Johto, it's just not very obvious.
I used Chikorita in a hardcore nuzlocke and it actually does very well as a core with Geodude who is easily the best early Johto pokemon.
Picking Chikorita made the rival pick Cyndaquil so Geodude easily soloed the rival battles unlike if he had Totodile or Chikorita, and the pair did really well against Whitney as the combination of Bayleef's Poison Powder with Dig from Geodude turned an infamous Nuzlocke killer into a cake walk. Meganium also does really well against Clair's Kingdra.
But yeah, Meganium would probably be one of the most popular pokemon ever if it was the Kanto grass type. Not only would you be dominating the game with it, but you'd be dominating the game with a dinosaur!
Funny because my first Johto play through was actually picking Chikorita, realising it sucks, and beating the whole game with mostly a graveler. It's truly amazing against the first 3 gyms, which are easily the most difficult ones in the region.
@@artimist0315 Oh yeah. The Geodude line is crazy good in Johto. My entire decision to pick Chikorita for that challenge was it had the best synergy with what I considered my actual starter.
Dude you popped off! I agree so much.
Chikorita isn't a bad starter it's just the region it originated in was so Anti-Grass that it struggles in the run. But in Kanto it would have a good run for the first 3 gyms struggle with the 4th then get back on track for the rest of the run
I'd take Chikorita over Charmander in Kanto any day.
I like getting all the starters so i choose pikachu.
One of the problems of chikorita being a pure grass type on gen 1, is that it would struggle to pass through the viridian forest, with the amount of poison stings of bug catcher's weedles.
Poison sting is a really terrible move, especially in the early game when all the bug types have low base attack. A Chikorita spamming tackle the whole way through wouldn't have much trouble.
Pidgey is available, as well as Spearow
@@G1nger519 I don't know you, but I really like to use my starter, if you're playing that game for the first time and you find hard to pass through the first forest, you may think your mon is weak and stop using him, remember that this was the first game
I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again; Meganium should get Flower Veil. It’s a great ability, giving all Grass type users and allies an immunity to non-volatile status conditions and any non-self inflicted stat changes, giving it a very unique defensive profile. However, no current users of Flower Veil are Grass type, and it only makes sense to give it to the Pokémon that not only needs it, but also makes the most sense considering it literally has a flower on its neck.
Never thought about it but that's really clever. Flower veil is such an underwhelming ability in singles so it's not obvious it would work really well with meganium. The stat change immunity is not that valuable on such an offensively lacking pokemon, but the status immunity is huge. This alone won't make it excellent but it will definitely make it viable in lower tiers, and with the correct stat redistribution and move pool adjustment it can really make meganium a great Pokémon.
Noted for Mega Meganium...
It's going to take much more than that to make Meganium good. I would give it Pollen Puff, Revival Blessing, and various doubles-oriented moves to give it use in VGC.
@@shiruotakuno28 One pick I’d absolutely give it: Lovely Kiss. Give it a Sleep move that works on other Grass types and keep Spore as the rare mushroom-exclusive move.
@@artimist0315 The stat change immunity does mean that it gains immunity to moves like Parting Shot (thus preventing the switch), it can use Swords Dance with a built-in Clear Amulet, and it can’t be slowed by moves like Icy Wind. So while it’s mainly for giving those boosts to other Grass types like Ogerpon or Rillaboom, it’s not exactly weak on Meganium itself.
Being my first starter ever, Chikorita will always be the best in my heart.
Nowhere else, though.
Fun fact. Chiko is a male name meaning arrow in japanese, I named my starter that in my hgss nuzlocke.
I would argue that Chikorita is actually better than Treeko in Hoenn.
1. He got Razor Leaf before Roxanne while Treeko stuck with absorb or bullet seed. If you think bullet seed is good. In gen 3 it has 10 base power.
2. Treeko learn mega Drain at LV 26. Yikes. And didn't learn mega Drain as grovyle
3. Speed didn't matter as much as people think in in game playthrough. Especially since in Hoenn you still got badge Boost. It's easy to outspeed enemy with 0 speed ev investment.
Yeah that mega drain detail had me puzzled. I was like uhh maybe in kaizo?? I don't remember mega draining Roxanne!
This is a really interesting concept, and I'd love to see videos on other disliked starter pokemon, keep up the great work Pat
Emboar line please!
But I thought the Tepig line was loved by all purely just for being the Fire-type option 'cause they're all a bunch of pyromaniacs and Charizard simps.
For Decidueye, you chose the wrong stats for it when comparing it to Meganium. You chose Chesnaught’s stat values.
Real talk meganium was decent in competitive Gen 2 . Nice resists and bulk
I would've been curious to see how Bulbasaur fares in Johto since you did the opposite for Chikorita
It would probably be the same for Falkner, but better against Bugsy, Chuck, Koga, and Bruno due to it's Poison typing giving it and extra set of resistances
@@YarnLalms711 And access to Leech Seed, which Chikorita only gets from breeding.
Probably not much better since grass types as a whole are awful in Johto, but it would at least have STAB Sludge Bomb in HGSS (it can’t learn that move in Gen 2 for some reason).
It gets completely dunked on, just like Jumpluff, Gloom, Sunflora and Weepinbell
I always thought of the starters as “easy, medium, hard”
Meganium is Sans Last Breath difficult
I think it is obvious that Chikorita was designed to be a bulky Pokémon rather than a powerhouse, having access to moves like Reflect, Light Screen and Synthesis. If Toxic was available much earlier it could potentially stall anything other than Poison and Steel-types. It is still great to see how would it do in every Gen besides I and II though.
Now I wonder which Grass starter in existence would have actually performed the best in Johto, I think Turtwig and Rowlet have a chance to work decently there.
WARNING: LONG POST as I overanalyze a probably worthless what-if because it's interesting.
I do think the Rowlet line in particular would do noticeably better. Now:
+ I'm gonna compare accounting for both GSC and HGSS (this will mostly just matter because of moves -e.g. Leaf Blade exists in HGSS, so Decidueye gets to learn it there, but not in GSC where it didn't exist yet).
+ I'll have to assume level-up learnset adjustments are made, mainly in GSC, because Rowlet line learns a lot of things, including STABs, that just didn't exist yet (e.g. Pluck and Leaf Blade; just assume Dartrix gets Wing Attack instead or something).
+ I will, however, assume Decidueye gets to keep their signature Spirit Shackle because it's too characteristic to not retrofit-- this only really matters in HGSS due to Physical/Special split, as you already get Shadow Ball from Morty which is the same power, and is Physical in GSC. Overall not _too_ important since Decidueye's offenses have very little difference, but saying it just in case.
Team Rocket: As Rowlet and Dartrix, we mostly just have the same type interactions. As Decidueye, Ghost leaves us neutral to Poison. We also might get the drop on the occasional Drowzee or Machop.
Rival: We can do a bit more. Mainly, we have better moves for Haunter and Kadabra.
Falkner: About the same. For GSC I guess at least we can't get accuracy-dropped by Mud Slap.
Bugsy: Flying turns around this matchup. Albeit we probably just have Peck as of yet. Still better though.
Whitney: I guess we're worse off here, since we're now weak to Rollout.
Morty: We can hit things with neutral STAB now. Assuming we're basing it off the Ultra learnset, we'd already have Ominous Wind in HGSS, so that might do something for us.
Chuck: Now we have type advantage (either offensive or defensive depending on whether we've fully evolved yet) on the whole Gym and not just Poliwrath.
Jasmine: About the same.
Pryce: We likely already have Decidueye; no double weakness at least. We probably still have just Razor Leaf, so our odds don't look too good for the exchange of super-effective strikes. In GSC we hold up better than Meganium, having virtually the same Special bulk to take the Ice hits (just slightly less HP) but much better offenses. In HGSS Meganium probably does better due to stronger STAB and better Physical bulk for Dewgong's Ice Shard and Piloswine's Ice Fang.
Clair: We can accomplish a bit more thanks to neutral secondary STAB, but are still unlikely to get too far.
Will: Ghost STAB makes a big difference. Jynx and Xatu are faster, but the first Xatu in HGSS and both of them in GSC lack Flying moves (beware of Me First on HGSS first Xatu though), and HGSS Jynx has to use Ice Punch off her low Attack stat, so we're mostly still alright. Plus in HGSS, we'd have Sucker Punch by level up or Shadow Sneak via relearner by now, so priority is a handy option.
Koga: Ghost makes us neutral to Poison, and the secondary STAB is handy for everything not named Forretress (against whom being immune to Explosion can be noteworthy, though). We still lose to Crobat, however.
Bruno: He can't use STABs until either Machamp or GSC Hitmonlee uses Foresight, so that's an improvement.
Karen: We can actually do something against Vileplume and Gengar now (the latter has no Shadow Ball but beware of Destiny Bond; priority might help here too). We're still weak to Murkrow and Houndoom, and now also to Umbreon, but being able to do something useful at all in this fight is a net win.
Lance: Mostly the same, unfortunately.
Not detailing Kanto Leaders too much barring Blue (because I consider his fight more notable) and Surge (because his case is pretty interesting) but: we still have clear advantage on Brock and Misty, we now get the drop on Sabrina, we have more options against Erika (especially in HGSS if we already learned Brave Bird), we still lose to Blaine, and Janine is basically Koga again minus the Forretress (Explosion immunity matters more now that it's her Weezing carrying it).
Surge: We do better than Meganium because we can bypass his Light Screen with Physical STAB (even if we don't retrofit Shackle, we have Shadow Ball in GSC and Leaf Blade in HGSS, though in HGSS retrofitting Shackle does give us the edge of not triggering Static), are immune to all of his coverage moves except HGSS Magneton's Mirror Shot and can't be hit at all by his two GSC Electrode.
Blue: Bad matchups on Arcanine and Pidgeot, good on Rhydon and neutral (GSC)/bad (HGSS due to Ice Fang) on Gyarados stay mostly similar (on HGSS Rhydon we no longer fear Megahorn, but he probably gets OHKO'd anyways; on GSC Gyarados we have slight edge due to Physical STAB). The interesting one is Alakazam (GSC)/Machamp (HGSS); the first is free, the second has neutral Stone Edge on our weak Defense (I can't say "use Brave Bird" as the recoil will also add up; PP stall with Roost since we resist his other coverage? Crit chance though...) but at least can no longer Dynamic Punch us.
Red: We have better ways to hit Venusaur now, especially in HGSS with Brave Bird; plus our Ghost typing makes Sludge Bomb neutral. In GSC Espeon is kinda free, and Snorlax can't hit us at all but will take forever to bring down. In HGSS, beware of Snorlax's Crunch.
Did I just bother to make a massive post about something that's not happening? Yes. Do I regret it? No ;)
Chikorita Retrospective
Reminder that Team Rocket’s robots in Jhoto were immune to every pokémon Ash had except Bayleaf. So Ash’s Bayleaf was his strongest Jhoto pokémon. Now imagine if it became Meganium.
Every other grass starter has better hidden abilities and are better suited for competitive battling. Meganium gets Flower Guard, which needs the sun to activate. Most agree that it's basically only good as a support, putting up screens and using aromatherapy, and possibly tossing out a toxic or two.
I like that it learns Counter though, which can take an opponent by surprise if played properly
Chikorita is my favourite starter of any gen. love to see her getting some love
Looking over chikoritas gen 2 moves with an rby OU eye I see alot of potential.
Razor leaf is ofcourse the best grass stab in rby.
It has good selection of physical moves in body slam, eq and hyper beam (which combod with swords dance will be nutty).
And if we presume synthesis would be swapped out for recover thats pretty good and it's even got a fair bit of other jank so that not every sets going to be the same.
I KNEW I WASNT TRIPPING OR HALLUCINATING ABOUT YOUR POKÉMON CHANNEL/VIDS I WAS LIKE WHERED THEY GO THEYRE FIRE 🔥 ONLY TH-camR TO BE MULTI-DIMENSIONAL, ZOMBIES/COD, MINECRAFT, POKÉMON, LETS GOOO PAT 👏 🎉
YESSSSSS CHIKORITA IS AWESOME I LOVE HIM
the only thing that bugged me about chikorita was that it doesn't learn vine whip, in the anime it had vine whip
Great video, it’s cool that Chikorita at least is helpful in some of those gens, anyways, keep it up!
Pokemon just does support roles horribly.
There's a very tiny niche for support pokemon and they prioritized the speed and power of battles with strong/obvious themes (I know stall teams exist) over making the battles a puzzle to figure out.
There's often very few reasons aside from personal taste to not pick the pokemon that has both atk/s.atk and speed over 100 when optimizing a team
Great to see a new upload!
Alternative title: why the problem of Chikorita is pure grass type
I need more of this with different starters!
Give my girl triage and a secondary fairy type already!
Since meganium is a dinosaur, I think it should have been dragon type. It would have its fair 4x weakness and I think a lot more people would’ve given it the love it deserved. Plus I always wanted a grass/dragon that wasn’t literally a fruit..
A paradox meganium
Dragon resists all of the starters' types plus Electric. Giving it to one starter wouldn't just tip the balance, but topple it.
And giving it to all three starters wouldn't be much better, because then they would all be both weak and strong against eachother.
@@RokuroCarisu if feraligatr lears ice fang then it's all good, or they could've just given feraligatr water ice which would be no problem.
@rokurocarisu I would just point out that newest gen gives each starters 3rd evolution a potential advantage to its original weakness starter water-fighting>grass-dark>fire-ghost
This beautiful dino mama should get buff in gen 9
The only way to make Chikorita a good Pokémon is giving it a new hidden ability, Solar Guard... This doubles both defenses under sun... And makes them inmune of fire type moves during the active sun...
I’m excited for new content on here I’m a die hard Pokémon fan and always watching content on it
I love this it’s a quality video! ❤️
There are people who think Meganium should've gained the Fairy typing. Some rom hacks have Meganium as Grass/Fairy. Yes that means it would be 4x weak to poison but would take neutral damage against bug and now be weak to Steel. But it would be immune to Dragon so if it were Grass/Fairy, it would be helpful with Chuck, Claire's Kingdra, some of Karen's dark types.
"I was born in the wrong generation"
Cool to see you post on here again! Very unique video good stuff🔥
Well at least you tried to make a decent case for my favorite gen 2 starter, thanks
Good job carving your own lane and original ideas and videos
Neat idea to put meganium in other pokemon’s shoes, but in all cases I would rather either take the original grass starter, or pick up a wild encounter which would fit my needs more specifically for whatever purposes. ( Or just not run a grass type since other typings do the job aswell )
At least poor Meganium was spared Meowscarda humiliating it again.
Hot take, but I'd argue chikorita might actually be better than treecko in gen 3, mostly because treecko's movepool sucks in gen 3. He doesn't get mega drain before evolving. Leaf blade is a great move, but until then you're stuck with absorb and some puny non-stab moves.
Sceptile's speed and special attack stats are nice but Meganium's are on the right spot for it to doesn't matter as much, and the extra bulk is nice for the typical grass type sustain playstlye.
Chikorita my beloved
I'd rather choose Squirtle instead even though that conflicts with my Kalos team.
This feels like your trying to sell me Chikorita and your doing an awful job. Lol
Its a hard mode for johto, but its hardcore cute and balanced, whereas the other lines are both cute and grow up into beasts, feraligatr can almost solo the game, and typhlosion is a spec. powerhouse sweeper. To be fair their all not bad, it just easily varies on the trainers prefference, and its ez to get a leafstone in johto so victreebell isnt a bad option and the gloom line offers you bellossom early as well. Still though, it doesnt learn sleep powder which is just bad for grass types
real question. What if every grass type starter was in gen 2
Most would suck. Grass types as a whole are awful in Johto. The only ones I see really being able to perform well are the non-Venusaur dual types (Torterra, Chesnaught and Decidueye) and that’s mostly because of their secondary STABs. Venusaur itself wouldn’t do much if at all better in Gen 2 but it has access to STAB Sludge Bomb by HGSS, so it’s doing better there at a minimum.
Chikorita being... alright in places that are not Johto just makes me want them to make another Legends game with it as an option
Uff. The Pear with 100% Crit Rate Razor Leaf. 😂😂😂
Really like this video!^^
I honestly thought that myself; grass may do poorly in Johto but it dominates in Kanto
The reverse is true for fire types and that makes me wonder…
Chikorita does good in Kanto but what about cyndaquil?
And how would bulbasaur and charmander do in a Johto playthrough?
Ur right about Chikarita dealing with Psychic better than bulbasaur, but there are lots of poison types in Kanto too (which it’s weak to) and it isn’t actually that great regardless. I therefore disagree that Chikorita is better than bulbasaur
love chikorita
serperior getting coil should push it ahead in gen 5
I think there's another question coming up when comparing Meganium to the other Grass starters: How would the others fare in Jotho? Is Jotho just intrinsically so anti-grass that they all suck or can some of the others edge out a niche for themselbes over Meganium?
I'd say it's not a tie between serperior and it since serperior can learn coil and sweep through anything with leaf blade at even plus 3 or 4
use cheat code then you can have chikorita at start in fire red and leaf green
you can see what it goes in gen 1
also not to mention, that in Gen 1, it might have 100 Special
Chikorita is my favorite Pokémon of all time. He was also my first Pokémon of all time so I’m biased.
2:45 how in the world does that one shot without a crit
Where did all the old videos on this channel go? Did you private/delete them for some reason Pat? Maybe just wanted a fresh start on the Pokémon content?
Yeah just looking for a fresh start as I’m going to be doing a more list based style of content :)
Dude was exited to post this after the dislike button was removed
LOL
Against Erika, the Poison Powder move would actually connect with Chikorita, unlike Bulbasaur, who is immune to Poison except by Twinneedle.
This video just kept going
You forgot Black 2 and White 2 in gen 5. It's even worse then because Roxie's an early game Poison-Type Gym leader. It's like Gen 2 all over again. 2 gyms you're pok'e mon is weak to right a row, because after Roxie it's time for Burgh and his bugs again
sabrina gym is clear by snorlax, a secure encounter
Chikorita gets ancient power and earthquake covering its all weaknesses its no Torterra but its way bulkier
Ancient Power is weak and you need to chain breed for it until Gen 4 when Tangela finally gets it via level up. Torterra gets STAB on it’s Earthquake, gets it significantly sooner, has access to the much better Rock Slide for flying types and is the bulkier of the two on the physical side.
@@yorecf9641 well still Chikorita line gets it and Bulbasaur does not. On top of that 30 is weak not 60 that is average. On top of that ancient power gets omniboost which makes pokemon drastically better.
@@wildresin6292 we’ll have to disagree on what’s weak and what isn’t but keep in mind that Ancient Power only has a 10% chance for an omni boost for its 5 uses. Frankly, Body Slam seems like a better option to me. No breeding, still hits decently hard and has a 30% chance for paralysis.
@@yorecf9641 why breeding is a factor anyway? Does Chikorita line have it in the move pool or not? Answer is yes.
On top of that body slam is only 25 points stronger thats not a lot.
Did you ever considered why ancient power has the same amount of pp as hyper beam which has power of 150 and not as many as cut which has power of 50? Ancient power is an op move. Its the same category as hyper beam blizard Thunder or fire blast. They all have its disadvantages hyper beam has a turn of recharge blizzard has a poor accuracy ancient power has a guaranteed damage and full accuracy. Only drawback is that not always it gives the omni boost. Thats the lesser drawback of em all. Used on something i call a proper wall (both defenses high and equal) turnes it into a proper tank. Plus if you use pp up or max on it its 8 pp
@@wildresin6292 I bring it up because of how late you get it. In HGSS it’s not as bad since you just have to wait until a Tangela gets it at level 33. In GSC, however, you need a member of the Totodile family to breed with a level 49 Omanyte, a level 55 Kabuto or a level 43 Corsola. It’s only after that can you breed a Chikorita with the move. Also, I am very much going to have to disagree with Ancient Power being on the same level as Fire Blast. It’s half the power and even if you max it out at 8 PP you can statistically not get a stat boost. Additionally, the extra 25 points for Body Slam is absolutely a lot. You’re the first person I’ve ever heard say a gap that wide isn’t.
TFS SoulSilver Nuzlocke watch it save that changes your mind cuz it sure as hell changed Lanny Karen and Grant's mind
razor leaf is only auto crit in gen 1 if you have over 69 base speed which im actually surprised i thought meganium was slower than that
Chikorita never gets Leaf Blade unfortunately :(
She needs either a Variant or a Mega Evolution that gives her /Fairy. Because of both the Amile and Land Before Time, she's my favorite of the 3 starters in Gen 2, despite being the clear worst.
I've just noticed, but why do you resemble, in this particular video, your hair etc, in physical appearance, Grindlewald from Secrets of Dumbledore?
Chikorita today. Tepig tomorrow.
Serperior bad?..
Contrary ability + Leaf tornado + Choice scarf making it good sweeper in game :/
Serperior has never had Contrary as a starter. I’m also assuming you meant Leaf Storm since Leaf Tornado doesn’t work well with Contrary.
I always liked Chikorita. Such a shame that it’s basically useless everywhere it turns.
The body slam is a tm in gen1. so why does it matter?
Stab body slam with tauros or any normal type late in the game
Time to solo Kalos and Alola with Chikorita
Venasaur can learn body slam by TM
I'd love to get this Rom Hack
I always looked at starters as a way to pick your difficulty.
Granted, professional players don't care about the regular game balance. But for the majority of people "competitiveness" shouldn't matter.
It's nice to pick the most broken starter and just plow through the game. But it feels way more rewarding to beat the game on "higher difficulty". Heck the concept of challenge is the whole point people came up with nuzlockes.
Chikorita has Razor Leaf and Reflect before she even evolves.
OK, Bulbasaur has Leech Seed, but also only Vine Whip, so I think both are matched.
However, considering the quite broken set up of the Gen I games, Razor Leaf as well as any other High-Crit move was way too strong in Gen I, so with Chikorita you could have beaten basically everyone in early game.
Make Meganium a fairy type? 👀
Didn't Chikorita get Razor Leaf at lv 8 back in gen 2?
Special was one stat in Gen 1. If meganium had 100 base special with razor leaf and bodyslam as level up moves and more than likely getting swords dance and counter, meganium would probably be a decently good pokemon in that meta... ignoring blizzard
But how would other grass starters fare in Johto?
Johto is incredibly unfriendly to grass types in general so most wouldn’t do much better. The only ones I see being of any use are Torterra, Chesnaught and Decidueye since their secondary typings are useful, though Chesnaught would also be bad for GSC if we don’t give it Cross Chop or at least Submission.
Serperior with Contrary ability is far better than anything Meganium can do. You make interesting points about Venusaur in Gen 1, but you forget to mention the Toxic-Leech Seed glitch makes Venusaur one of the best Pokemon for an in-game playthrough.
Any pokemon can learn Toxic, and Meganium learns Leech Seed, and also Synesthesis, so... What are your excuse?
@@PauloHenrique-op9zw Meganium only learns Leech Seed via breeding. Which means that a Meganium with Leech Seed cannot be a starter Pokemon.
@@roscoedash6673 And Serperior in the most of the times dont have Contrary, guess who also not can be a starter pokemon to have this hability?
He just used Chesnaught's stats again here. @6:41
Solid video, but I'm a bit thrown off by the fact that the title doesn't describe the video lmao
Probably won't be coming back
Gen 1 needed a good pure grass type. Meganium is a good pokemon, and it not being weak to Psychic would be a huge advantage over Venusaur, as well as Ground becoming not very effective. Plus in Gen 1 with special being 1 type, it's special would absolutely shine. The problem with gen 1 is, Blastoise is the only perfect starter as far as the actual in game capabilities. Charizard is flying but couldnt learn fly, he could only learn the weak Wing Attack. AND Ice did normal damage to fire then so, he gained Ice and Electric as super effective, gained rock as double super effective, and only lost ground as no longer damaging. Venusaur, yeah.. easily could get 1 shot killed by Blastoise OR Charizard. Blastoise is faster and can learn Ice moves of course so, he can 1 shot either other starter. Generally 1 Ice Beam would do the trick, maybe 2. On top of that, SURF.... Surf and Ice Beam is the most important move duo in Gen 1 especially. Earthquake is 5 stronger at 100/100 but, 5 less PP, is only a 1 time TM, can't hurt flying types, Surf and Ice Beam together? Come on. Throw in Hydro Pump and then Body Slam as the 4th move, you're solid with Blastoise.
Blastoise has base 78 speed. How is it faster than venusaur
W8 4:38 chikorita learns leafblade?
it may perform better in those games but majority of those Grass types are also better than it in those gen, Also Better than Venusaur because of one fight? what about Agatha? and it's truely Gen 1 Lance's Dragons will spam agility on venusaur not so with Maganium
Also worth noting that it's easier to make a counterplay against Sabrina than against Koga since all three of his Koffings & Weezing have Self Destruct and his Muk is basically a Stall Chansey Prototype (Toxic, Minimize, a lot of HP...).
Venosaur being a tanky pkmn, having access to drain moves and being immune to poison status is a hard counter in a gym that has a lot of room to things going South randomly.
For the better and for the worst Sabrina's party is way more straight foward going only for same type moves (and a Venomoth for some reason) and Mr. Mime's Walls going away once you know him out.
6:41 lol those aren’t decidueye’s base stats
What a great question
I like the design tough
But in Gen 2 starter, totodile is the strongest
When your favourite pokemon is absolute trubbish apart from its ability i mean it's worse than meganium
Late game black and white post Brycen you get better mileage out of Dark, Fighting, ghost, psychic and flying types. Grass gets a little bettering Black and White 2. To be fair Fire and Water aren't anywhere near the best typings either Emboar gets more use out of it's fighting stab in the endgame and postgame.
Thats incorrect at Gen 1, ITs true that its a bit better vs Sabrina, but that just means worst case you switch the order and you are fine. Bulbasaur also gets body slam, so it can fight Alakazam anyway. At at the minimum, bulbasaur cant be poisoned which is surprisingly helpful.
In return Bulbasaur does way better vs Lance due to the AI bug. If you move onto Gen 3 Kanto, Bulba makes better use of posion subtyping
I Love Chikorita
I mean, for beating games is always better to fill up the team with pokemons that have two types. Just 3 pokemon and you have the type advantage over almost any type. Make one of those your starter - gen 1 and 2 will have almost nowhere to shine in future games.
I like the ogs but chikorita has bulbasaur beat
At least in Kanto but in Johto Chikorita can't do anything.
im not a fan of most grass starters but chikorita is one of the better ones imo.
Then I'd still pick squirtle