Should Mobile Fidelity Sound Labs and Analogue Productions just cut all of their albums at 45 RPM?
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 21 พ.ย. 2022
- Why are all albums by Mobile Fidelity Sound Labs and Analogue Productions' just not cut at 45 PRM on either One-Step SUPERVINYL or UHQR CLARITY vinyl if these combos are the definitive 'BEST" sounding pressings?
Why do Audiophile record companies press their albums in both 33.3 RPM and 45 RPM?
Is there that much of a difference in sound quality and overall loudness between a 33.3 RPM vs. a 45 RPM cut album?
Does a 45 RPM pressing sound louder and if so why? I do a PRIMITIVE DB test on Analogue Productions' 33.3 RPM and 45 RPM Miles Davis' Kind Of Blue.
Does a 45 RPM cut ruin the flow of the album?
Find out the answers to these questions and much more! - บันเทิง
It's a great topic, thanks for the video. Cut loudness is actually much more than just loudness... when we say that 45rpm allows for a louder cut, what it means really is that 45rpm allows for: much better signal to noise ratio, much less distortion (on all grooves of the entire disc), easier and more effective stylus tracking that actually retrieves more information from the groove, a wider and richer frequency range because of the easier tracking on the entire record surface, and also for that same reason better stronger and sharper transients. It's not a small thing... the distortion levels are incredibly lower at 45rpm on a 12" LP, because of increased velocity, it's not just a matter of less IGD, it actually sounds less distorted on every single groove of the disc.
Love your channel and your discussions about vinyl pressings. Great job Steve! 👏
I really really appreciate that. Thank you.
Hey Steve, great channel and fun topic. I also have many versions of Kind of Blue. UHQR 45, 33, MOFI 45 and a regular 33 1/3 and an old version with slight wear and tear. 45 sounds best BUT having to get up twice as many times ruins my experience. 33 is fine. My ears can’t tell the difference.
Thanks so much Tom. 45 def requires more exercise for the trade off in sound.
I can tell you from experience of something I worked on that came out at 33 1/3 and will have a future 45 set that 45 does sound better. The sound is more transparent and is truer vs how it was meant to sound in the mastering. Whether one feels it's worth the inconvenience of changing sides more often is a whole other issue, which may even be dependent on the album re how breaking up the sides hurts flow of the music, if you don't want to always play a whole side and individual songs, etc.
I use to be a proponent of 45 rpm 2 lp sets. I do believe that all things being equal 45 rpm can enhance the fidelity. This is what Kevin Gray has to say on the topic:
Why 45 rpm? by Kevin Gray, AcousTech Mastering:
"After 60 years the good ol’ analog LP is still one of the highest resolution sources of music distribution available. It has a solid, palpable, satisfying sound that no digital format has yet equaled, let alone surpassed. The most unfortunate thing about the LP is that it was really starting to flourish back in the mid 80s, just as the record companies tried to kill it.
Advances in cutterheads (the device that etches the groove in the master lacquer disk) and cutting electronics reached a pinnacle in the early 80s. Digital computers arrived on the scene in their best role: Out of the audio chain, but doing machine-control to adjust the groove spacing on the record for maximum playing time and recorded volume. 180 gram virgin vinyl pressings were the next development, and last but not least, around the late 70s, 45 rpm 12” LPs started to appear.
Why 45, you ask? Because it sounds better! In record mastering, the higher the recorded level and frequency, the greater the groove curvature. Curvature isn’t usually a problem, per se, on the outside of a 12” 33 1/3 record, but as the groove moves toward the center, its relative speed slows down and curvature increases. Yes, it is still turning at 33 1/3 revolutions per minute, but consider: one revolution takes 1.8 seconds. That 1.8 seconds at a 12” diameter is covering a lot more territory than at the minimum 4.75” diameter. The result is actually a loss in high frequencies, and increase in distortion as the groove moves to the center. The problems start when the curvature of the groove equals or exceeds the diameter of the playback stylus. What can be done about it? Many things have been tried, but there is no “magic bullet”. Keep the recorded volume to a reasonable level (read: On scale on the meters) is the first thing. Play the record back with an elliptical or line-contact stylus that has a smaller tip radius. And, if possible, make the record short enough to keep the music away from the very end of the disk. This isn’t always possible, of course.
BUT, if we spin the disk at 45rpm we now have a 35% increase in groove velocity at any point on the disk. This is a huge advantage! Yes, the groove still slows down as it moves inward, but the effects are greatly reduced. The only problem is that the amount of recorded time is now also reduced by 35%. What do you do about that? (Hint: split up the LP into 4 sides on 2 records.) Now you’re cookin’ doc! Yep, twice the mastering cost, plating cost, pressing cost, label and jacket costs. It’s enough to make the bean-counters break down and cry. But the sound! Oooooh, yeah! This isn’t sales hype, it’s physics. Listen for yourself. You tell me if it’s worth it. A lot of music lovers think so…and they are right!"
I am much more skeptical about Clarity vinyl. This was a Hobson invention. Its many times noisey. Causes issues.
I am less sold on the benefits of 45 rpm now. The bit of improvement between say Fleetwood Mac Rumors 45 and 33 is simply not enough for me compared to the interruption of the flow of the album and being stuck having to jump up every 8 minutes.
Folks keep shooting the comment "Dont be lazy, it will do you good to get some exercise"
Well, that isnt the point. The point is the interruption messed with the artistic feel and the Clarity vinyl for many is simply a noisey mess that is difficult to work with.
I am now firmly in the "bring back 33.3 160 gram vinyl and stop all this 45 rpm 2 lp noisey vinyl nonesense to hike prices up"
One point I never see brought up about clarity vinyl is this. If in general carbon is added to reduce the amount of static a record will have and attract less dirt and prolong the life of a record. What will happen to our clarity vinyl records ? how long will they degrade ? will simply cleaning them with an anti-static brush work? Should they be wet cleaned more often ? just wondering. I haven't seen anyone ask these questions.
good job🥸
Also, spinning platter bearings at 45 and asking your stylus to travel further puts more wear and tare on your equipment. The whole idea of the micro groove recording is that the medium (the disc) would wear out rather than the equipment. Remember back in the days of 78's, it was recommend you change the "needle" every other side played resulting in the need for a small pot of "needles" positioned close to the tone arm.
Maybe that's the way forward for "audiophiles".... faster spinning discs and more frequent change of styli ? Just.... please... don't include the rest of us music lovers.
I'll have to take your word for it. My ADHD kicked in after the third paragraph.
@@richardblayneamerican8149 😂 You got me with that one
Turn volume up 2dB for the 33 rpm and then compare. That will tell you if there is any difference other than loudness. In my experience there is sometimes a difference in detail retrieval. I can't see a big advantage with KOB because sides are short and there is no groove cramming at 33 rpm. Also compare a 45 rpm Mo-Fi with a 33 rpm OG. Likely the 33 rpm OG is cut louder.
Different type of music, but I have an original Iron Maiden The Trooper 12" cut at 45rpm, and it kicks major a** over the wonderfully sounding 33rpm original British or American LP version.
I'm curious to hear Ted Nugents Strangle hold from AP vs the originalal.
Enjoyed it bro! You really took your time and put a lot of effort in this bro 🎸✌️
Thanks brother. How have you been?
@@stevewestman7774 I've been pretty good brother just enjoying life.. my channel finally hit a thousand subs it only took 4 years and 380 videos.. LoL
Hi Steve. I have no interest in 45rpm even with the superior sound you demonstrated. 33rpm sounds great to me; the vast majority of records new and old are 33rpm; it's more convenient playback; takes up less storage space; it costs less to consumers and manufacturers; easier/quicker to produce; and is less taxing on the environment. I am interested in the more advanced vinyl formulations if it's a modest upcharge and wouldn't affect the above points too much. It would be sad if most audiophile records became $100 supervinyls only. Let's keep this hobby as affordable and inclusive as possible. Thank goodness for Chad (AS/AP/QRP), RTI, and Blue Note for doing their parts to deliver quality products at reasonable prices without making us jump through hoops to buy them. If the hobby stays strong and popular, I'm sure that tech advances will happen with time and make new records sound even better. Cheers.
45 RPM under 10 minutes per side will always be a stronger, clearer signal than 33 1/3. Kevin Grey explains it below. It’s basic PHYSICS.
great question, makes perfect sense to me.
Great video as always Steve. One thing though, I caution about reading too much into the results just based on SPL. Yes the 45 is 2dB louder, but when gain matching and doing the comparison, I think you
L notice a slightly lower noise floor, which is hard to measure. Either way, it’s a damn good empirical comparison that isn’t subjective.
Oh and the answer why they aren’t all done this way is most likely $$ and profit margin;)
I think it simply boils down to the money the companies can make off of selling both. They release one and then the other and improve their cash that comes in. I personally think that they should release the best version, but at lower prices than they are selling them for, and release those first if they're going to be doing both the 45 end then 33 RPMs. I hear some people complain about having to flip a record over more times but I don't buy into that being a real issue. I'm sure nobody likes to have to do it but if you are shooting for the best sound then just get up and do it. It's not really that difficult. I know that a lot of people are content with the 33 RPM and I am myself even though I do like to try to get the best sound possible. If I had an option between 45 RPM and 33 RPM, I'd go with the 45 RPM. But when they release the 33 RPM first and then it's a long time before they release the 45 RPM, if I want it bad enough I'll just buy the 33 RPM and forget about getting the 45 RPM. Plus, they oftentimes will not tell you if they're going to release a 45 RPM so they get people to buy the 33 RPM and then want to upgrade and buy the 45 RPM when it gets announced later. I don't think most people even recognize any difference unless they're really looking for it too. I like what the previous post said about just releasing a great LP and leaving it at that. People will enjoy it and this striving for perfection is really kind of silly. If they did put out the best sounding product they could from the get-go, then everyone would likely be happy and I think they would sell just as many records. I doubt anybody would not buy a record because it's broken up into 2 LPs at 45 RPM as opposed to 1 LP at 33 RPM. Anyhow, this is just my run on, long paragraph opinion haha. But I hear what you're saying and I agree!
Brian in Fort Worth 🎶
My question is this: I understand that you can get more frequency "onto" the record in the mastering process at the higher speed, but I didn't hear you comment in any detail on the difference in the actual sound outside of "louder". If you matched the volume on the two formats was the soundstage bigger on the 45? Was the center image better? Are the highs any crisper? Are the mids more defined? Are the lows more punchy? Does the music "bloom" better on one version than the other? Shouldn't those differences be the actual measure for "better"? Just curious. For the record, I agree with the comment below; I can hear a difference in the sound quality between formats, but it's certainly not enough to justify the $150 price tag for One Steps/UHQR's in my mind, and I avoid 2LP 45 RPM pressings in general (regardless of price) whenever possible since I hate the disruption in the listening experience playing 45 LP's. Just MHO.
33rpm means I can listen to an album without having to get up all the time. I'm a music lover though.
Inner groove distortion at 33.
Great common sense video. Appreciate analysis. I now will be purchase 45 RPM kind of Blue. Very helpful
I know the newer Prestige & Verve/Acoustic sounds are now 180g instead of 200g. Is it the same with the newer UHQR 33 releases? I think the 45s will remain 200g....Also does anyone think there is an audible difference between 180g and 200g?
A good comparison would be the "I, Robot" 33 and 45 One Steps once the 45rpm version is released.
A few simple reasons:
1. Expense. It's always going to be more expensive to cut 45rpm because you have to produce twice as many records. For many people, given the option, they would prefer to save the money with a 33 1/2. For clarity vinyl, I'd imagine it's much more expense to produce in mass quantities than vinyl with impurities.
2. For many people, the marginal sound quality increase of a 45rpm isn't worth the tedious listening experience of constantly flipping sides. 33 1/12 offers a more accurate representation of the original track listing of a given album.
All that said, I prefer 45rpm.
It’s more than marginal, especially regarding inner groove distortion.
I certainly understand your point from the perspective of ideal sonic reproduction. There are 2 limiting reasons at the outset: Cost and time. 45 costs about 20% more and takes twice the time to press the final product having 2 discs. Pressing time is a valuable commodity in the market which affects the availability of titles and 2x vinyl increases the bottleneck. So is it then better to wait longer to get a 2x45 vs 1x33?
Maybe a poll via your Community tab is a good feedback mechanism? Willingness to wait (let’s say 6 month delay) for a 2x45 vs 1x33 and the additional $25?
Thank you Steve for another honest and interesting video, for me 45rpm is the way to go for critical listening, but for music enjoyment an LP should only be what it's supposed to be 22mn per side! Try to listen to Whippin' Post by the Allman Brothers Band at the Fillmore east on 45 rpm, you will want 🙃to take the LP and throw it like a frisbee🥏...
lol🤪
It's simple really. Some people will not spend over $100 for a 45 rpm album. They are the buyers that the 33 1/3 rpm are for. It allows
the record company to make money from both types of buyers.
This is great. I actually listen to your vids with the same decibel meter. First at normal speed and then at 2x speed.
You’re cut so hot Steve! 😂
OMG Jason. Hilarious brother.
I love the 6-eye too :)
You're correct, putting one 8 to 12 minute track on an entire side of a 12" at 45 rpm gives you the ability to master with a wider dynamic range. Limited release DJ records from Europe were always cut this way so the world's best DJ's could get that tremendous "punch" to their sound. You bring up a great point at the end, though. A lot of us folks enjoy playing a side of a classic record like "Thriller" all the way through. That's why it's called a "side." Flipping the 45 rpm record in the middle would be an unwelcome disruption to the record's sequencing and its emotional flow. I guess you need two identical turntables and two copies of the recording so you can DJ mix yourself from one track to the next seamlessly between the two turntables! (Or, you could, of course, just buy the SACD or high-res PCM release version).
When RCA launched their "Madame X" project in the late 40's, they did not play around but put some of their best engineers to the task with a massive budget. Thus, they eventually came out with the 45rpm/7" format. It has only recently been found that the ideal combo would have been 47rpm/6.5". The perfect format for any vinyl soundgroove up to 4.5 minutes, which they had been looking for with 1940's means. They got so close! Good enough for me...!
Stay at 33. It does destroy the flow.
Well, I'm sure that you are quite right, and that is why the 2-45 sets costs more 😊 Also, I wouldn't be surprised if MANY here in the comments will state their preference for 33's because the 'Don't have to get up as often' At least on the Steve Hoffman Forums, many have specifically stated that and have expressed for this reason that they don't like 45's. But, I agree with you. If a person is after the best sound, then yeah, 45 it is...
Chad from Acoustic Sounds mentioned that in a video some time back and gave some really valid reasons. The main point was time. If you release 20K copies of an album at 45rpm, you have to wait twice as long to press them. Cost is another factor. While all reasonably recorded albums of significant length would benefit from the breathing space of 2 lps, would even the more moderately popular releases merit the extra cost, ie command that return on the upfront investment? Finally, as you mentioned about Thriller, some albums don’t have a continuity that pairs well with 4 trips to the turntable. I’ve heard some pretty terrific 33rpm lps, and because of it, I’m actually hoping not everything goes to 45rpm. Who has that kind of room? Who has that kind of dough?
I love great sounding LP's as much as anyone, but record company's such as Acoustic Sounds and Mobile Fidelity making all their LP's 45 RPM on Super Vinyl is not a good idea for them or us. Most people who love music and buy LP's do not want to spend $150.00 for their LP's. There are very few LP's that I would be willing to spend that kind of money on. Just give me a high quality, well pressed LP with great mastering and I am happy. I enjoy putting an album on the turntable, turning the lights down and relaxing to the music. I do own 45 RPM LP's, but I would not want to have to get up every ten minutes or so all the time to flip the record. If enough people buy these super vinyl 45 RPM LP's you can bet that the price will rise to $175.00 or $200.00. Where does it end? Enjoy your records and stop striving for perfection in the recorded media. Go listen to some live music and have fun. Just my two cents worth.
Well said! And if you want perfection get a blu-ray player and discs and install a simple 4.1 to enjoy full stereo with bass impact.
That device is an SPL [Sound Pressure Level] meter which measures in decibels the sound pressure level usually A or C weighted
Some people are lazy and don't want to do the extra flipping of the records, but 45rpm almost always sounds much better
Is the John Lee Hooker LP, The Healer, originally recorded digitally
I have both also, I really don’t like 45 rpm due to flipping but I continue to buy them for some reason.
Sound quality.
The truth is, the reason they are produced initially 33, then 45rpm is commercial. The companies know they have a section of their audience who will buy both. It’s all about the cash.
Interesting, Steve. Frankly, I would not have purchased the 33-1/3 versions of Kind of Blue or Thriller if I knew that 45's were coming. While "flow" is important, if I am going to spend $100+ on an album, I want it to be the best sounding version possible at that time. This is particularly true of albums like KOB or Thriller, where I already own a few copies.
With all fairness to mofi , they made the the announcement about a future 45 at the same time they announced the upcoming 33 of micheal Jackson .
The question I would like to ask Steve.
Without any gadgets, what do your own ears tell you.
Between those particular 2 versions? When AP announced KOB, it was a 33 & 45 version. If they both came out at the same time and now listened, would you have opted for the 45?
Or is it a good
marketing strategy by AP, as we couldn’t wait for the 45 and bought the 33.
What I will say, I have listened to Mingus - black saint & the sinner Lady on AP cut at 33 & 45.
But both cut by different mastering engineers. The 45 funny enough is cut quieter. Allthough the 33 has a bigger soundstage, I feel the lower mids are quite bloated. And for me the 45 by KG sounds more natural
It would be so cool to see some audiophile grade 78 RPM releases . I remember that 2011 Record Store Day video of that cool limited edition stereo 10 inch 78 of The Beach Boys Good Vibrations I would guess the sound quality is extremely high quality If it were played on your own turntable.
Couldnt you just record into a daw and run the dynamic range analysis on the recording?
Has anyone compared the supervinyl used by Mofi vs the Clarity vinyl used by AP? Both are quiet on needle drops
It’s been my experience that Super Vinyl is much quieter than Clarity in most cases. Just my .02.
I've got my Thriller local Hong Kong press , it's free from my friend. I cleaned it and play it occasionally. It sounds fabulous... Now I can save up more money for my other collection...
I'm guessing they don't only cut at 45rpm is the cost difference $59 vs. $125. Like you said... you don't think you'll be getting the Thriller album because it's only 2 dB difference. Is it worth it? I think it's nice having both options.... I typically buy 33rpm and if it's an artist or band I know I really like I'll get the 45rpm. Btw the 1step Thriller album is awesome! Waiting for your thoughts on the Thriller album. Like your channel 👍
The pressings you used are both AP, so you may not be able to verify what I am hearing. (Unless you also have a MoFi pressing) I’m listening to the 24/192 Apple Digital Masters version and I hear a noticeable crackle in the right channel when the trumpet first plays. I thought one my tweeters went bad, but heard it when listening on headphones. I also gave a listen on my iOS devices and can hear it.
Was there the same sound quality when they were both the same volume level
Nope
At the risk of repeating someone else’s point (there are a lot of comments already), I think the answer is that there are consumers for both without as much overlap as you’d think. There are folks who want to spend the extra to have the best version in 45rpm (whether or not “best” is actually discernible or just believed). There are also folks who want a less expensive version while still feeling they are getting a quality product. If labels can bring both groups of fans to the table for a particular release, they will make more money while satisfying more customers.
Sounds great to me. 😊
Some folks don't like flipping. 33.3 offers a more convenient experience for those people, I suppose? I prefer 45s, personally :)
Charles Kirmis from "kirmis audio" (probably spelled wrong, I apologize for my poor spelling) suggests don't play a record again for 24 hrs after the first play! He says the grooves get misshapen after you play the record, and after 24 hours the grooves snap back into there original form because of the "plastisizers" (spelled wrong again probably, sorry)!
I think these audiophile labels are trying to maximize their return on the licensing costs for these releases. I also think they are catering to different audiences within the audiophile market by releasing in both 33 1/3 & 45RPM. Why would they sell a product once when they could sell it twice? Look how many variations of “new & improved” laundry detergent and toothpaste we have. It’s the same marketing principle.
Correct me if I’m wrong, but doesn’t a record company license a record to one of these audiophile labels under strict conditions? I’ve always assumed that an LP, let’s say Thriller or Aqualung, was licensed to MoFi or Analogue Productions for an audiophile pressing under conditions that minimized the audiophile version competing with the owner of the masters’ own standard releases. The audiophile label isn’t free to press as many discs as they want in whatever format they want.
@@timkimware3537 correct. All I’m saying is the audiophile label gets the rights to do BOTH versions to maximize on their license fee.
@@fidelios_frequency Do they? I’m not sure about that.
45's wears your needle out much quicker.
Vinyl's geometry has this less dynamic range the more towards the centre spindle you come obstacle there anyway. Isn't that much of a difference. I think the needle cost overweight these issues. Having an expensive MC stylus I don't want too many 45's.
I had the opportunity to compare supervinyl vs black vinyl of the same pressing such as Mfsl KOB And classic records Norah jones . And a few others .
Yes supervinyl sounds quieter and more detailed . But it also sounds a bit colored . I DEFINITELY liked the mofi KOB better on super vinyl vs the black vinyl .
But I really liked both the black and supervinyl of norah jones classic records equally in a different way .
Now comes the more complicated comparison ,😂MM 33 on superviny vs the 45 black RPM .
The result both were great in a different way and very hard to choose .
12" singles from the 80's and 90's where vastly superior in sound than their 7" 45rpm counterparts due to the wider groove ability and less distortion on the inner groove, and you don't have to turn it up as much so not hearing the background noise of the pressing too
True and not true. Yes, of course, a wider groove is great, but our ears tell us the real story. 7" 45 singles were EQ'd and compressed to cut through a car radio. That's not the case with 12" singles that were meant to get dancers out on the floor. It's a but like comparing a John Deere tractor to a Porsche. Both great vehicles, but with very different purposes.
@@robertpincus6528 I agree to a certain degree, this may have been the case in the 50's and 60's but by the late 70's it wasn't such an issue as cuts where not mastered "hot" for juke boxes or airplay, it certain wasn't relevant for the UK, I cannot vouch for other countries though
I was at a high end audio show and a guy played me 2 UK Beatles 45s. The sound was amazing. Perhaps they were exceptions? I never liked singles, but maybe the Brits make good ones.
So are you saying the 45 has better dynamic range because it should shouldn't it?
33 and a volume knob. Why? The cost, the flow, the storage space, the listening experience, etc..
It's all about the money at the end of the day.
IMHO, 45rpm will always sound better, just like 15ips is better with RTR tape.
Ok, if 45 rpm is better than 33 1/3 rpm is better for dynamic range, would 78 rpm be even better?
oh yes sir lol
They do the 33 first as collectors will buy both , they want the best version .
They are marketing machines but I have to be selective as can't afford every uhqr , I still buy them . All the 45 s I have are better than 33 , as they do not get as close to the centre of the disc . My option only
Agree - The 2x12 45RPM destroys the flow of the music of the album (except if there is originally a 4 part/song album maybe). And is the "bass" also often somewhat boosted?
Although 45 RPM gives the best sound, its a pain to keep getting up and flip the record vs. 33 RPM. If the choice is there to get both then great!
"2 DB louder" and that's all it took to make it better? Geez! How about the dynamic range, the sound of the piano, the sound of the trumpet, or how well does the sound decay? I hear no talk about what really matters.
Yes. ;)
45 or 33 , when the music kicks in, I forget about everything,.but 45 rpms cause issue to my hip for frequent getting up for flipping the LP...at this age...just me.( That $30 you spent on that gadget bought me 30 buck a piece OGs in 1992)
45rpm v 331/3 ? It’s really down to whether one can be arsed to get off one’s chair more often and slightly more transparent sound. 👍
2 db. Well, it takes double the power to get 3 db. So, that's something to consider.
There are two more advantages of the 33 .one i the cost ! The other is the packaging . My guess is that due to so many comments , the sales of micheal Jackson we will be seeing much more one steps in 33 .and I would not be surprised if they change the 45 box to the new 33 box either .
Not a fan of 45rpm. Getting up to turn over the record every few minutes gets old after awhile. Plus I don't see it as much of a sound improvement.
If 45 has better dynamics wouldnt the quiet parts be quieter and loud parts be louder?
More than just trying to sell more copies, I think that these audiophile labels want to appeal to price point. A good example is "Can't Buy a Thrill" by Steely Dan. I personally like Steely Dan, but I am not a super fan, therefore, I am ordering the 33. Just can't justify the $150. I AM a super fan of Simon and Garfunkel, so I coughed up the extra money for the 45 one-step of Bridge Over Troubled Waters. Plus, BOTW was, I believe, a Grammy award winner for engineering. The 45 really brings that quality out. (The original pressing from the late 60s was also an example of the best that Columbia could do.
I know an audiophile guy and he hates 45rpm LPs, he says it just does something odd to the pace and rhythm of the music. Anybody got any opinions?
Because ap change 125 for a 33. And only get 150 for two discs. That’s why they are pushing 1-33 rpm
From DJ perspective 45rpm is a clear winner sound production wise there's no comparison to 331/3rpm ...
45rpm flipping is not a problem as DJ...
45rpm from a listing perspective is critical listing only it breaks up an original album in away that can become old very fast fir me personally.
Gaining 10% weather it's louder or more about detail the actual enjoyment of the Album is a very good question 🤔
I only own a a few 45rpm Audiophile album's not a big fan tbh I do enjoy the sound I detested the break in flow and the flipping..
But I do agree why can't all records just be pressed with better care and better quality?
With 45rpm, the waveform is longer. Imagine stretching out a string. With the waveform being longer, you have more available space in the groove to increase the amplitude of the wave since the wave will be flatter. With 33rpm, you shorten the waveform which leads to less available space and you have to decrease the amplitude to fit it in the same size groove.
For me, the 45 rpm LP is just to much "trouble", for the general public we must be heading for the "digital"/streaming world. (I know that this is not the right place to state this). All the problem with holding the LP clean, not scratching, only few minutes on each site, storage space etc. will eventually "kill" the LP. It is a hype now with the young generation (20-30) years, to spin those LPs and having the large albums, with the texts etc. We all were there in the past/and we still are many of us. The new generation will, I expect, eventually realize that this is to much of a "problem" - as our generation did in the past, and happily, at least most did, took the CD format in. The young generation today is not much for the hi-fi equipment part of things as "our" generation was. I have asked my children why they are for this LP format, and they say that they just like the large covers and the turntables how "old" it is, and the cracking sound (?!). There was/is even young people that want to go for the small cassette tapes - we know that to get from those some high standard sound one would probably have to go for some vintage Nakamichi, Revox or similar equipment that are just so expensive (for old machines) to come close to any good sound. And we all know that the format is just not very practical. Most of young ones are just "happy" with Bluetooth etc. This generation, from what I have heard, does not even know much about the brands producing the equipment (hi-fi) in this business any more.
I think that much of the record sale today is due to our age group purchasing the old stuff - reissue of things that we wanted to have, and never had in the past, probably mainly because we did not have the money at hand at the time (but that has changed for many of us, as the children fly away and the cost of living gets more "stable"). I have bought few hundred records in the past 2-3 years, but that is mainly because of those reasons and the fact that I do not remember then names of the songs etc. and the Title/Spotify for such persons is very troublesome to find anything. I just want to be able to pull out my LP or CD and listen to it from A-Z, not going to some i-phone or computer to start playing. I'm not there yet, and probably never will get there due to my age. The young generation is more, I think (of course this is not carved in stone), but most of them are just, in my opinion, listening to the "hits" and then carrying on - all things happening fast in a way. This is "sad" as very often the music you love most after more listening on an album is not the "hits". It is often the LP/CD as a complete piece, and more often some other song on the LP/CD is your favorite. I hope that when the Title/Spotify become more user friendly, then hopefully the new generation will start listening to the complete LP/CDs and appreciated the complete work.
Getting back to the topic of this episode - We could also ask our self's, with the same logic, if we should not go for the 78 rpm, having even fewer minutes on each site - probably much better quality. Of course everybody sees that this is not practical in any way, and the 45 rpm is that also, in my opinion. I can understand that people want to own some of their favored record, I have not done it as I don't think that my ears (at my age) is going to hear much of a difference. And how expensive hi-fi equipment does one have to have, when using the LP as the source of the sound? I'm sure that the cost is much/much higher than the cost of getting the digital one to the same quality level. And when the streaming will become better (providers) then there is no question in my mind where this is all heading, the streaming is taking over - sorry. The new generation is used to make their libraries in the computers/phones, having playlists ready for various occasions etc. - it is just a different world that we are heading for (...and this format is without any doubt more environmental friendly I expect). The LP is not the best format, as everybody knows then even the sound quality of the LP varies from the outer edge to the inner edge due to the fact that the spinning speed is constant and therefore the needle is covering longer distance on the outer edge, and therefore the quality is better there - have you noticed this? This is why the first songs were often those songs that the musicians hoped to be the hits - those cut the best "spot".
Also the cost of the 45 rpm is of course much higher and longer records (33 rpm) have to be cut to more records for the 45 rpm. The cost of the 33 rpm version is very high in my opinion, and I think that the general public is not going to accept the price tag that would be needed for the 45 rpm version, if that would become the "industry standard" as suggested. And the 2 dB difference goes out of the window if one just turns up the volume, and it is not likely that the "general public" is willing to pay this high price tag to get this "marginal" better sound on a media which you would need so expensive equipment to hear the difference, it is not audiophile enthusiasts that are purchasing the bulk of the records it is the "general" public - so I think this is just unpractical (.... environmentally, if we go there, the LPs is not the right way to head and adding probably 50% on the weight when having it 45 rpm is even worse, digital streaming has probably the winning there).
Sorry for this all to long "chat" - probably said more than I should have, but there it is.
On a side not, I love that Brubeck have on the background. Better than Time Out to be honest
Such a great album.
You do realise the UHQR 45 rpm of Steely Dans Can't Buy A Thrill is around 2db quieter than the Ume 33 rpm of the same mix? There's not even a comparison on what sounds best. The UHQR by a noticeable distance
My first experience- Analog Productions' 'Tea For The Tillerman' by Cat Stevens at 45 rpm -is amazing. I also own a first pressing of the album that's a close second! But I also own a Mobile Fidelity 'Seventh Sojourn' by The Moody Blues that misses the mark. Sort of a hit or miss thing!
Foe me the only Moody Blues thst ever sounded great was the live record with some new studio tracks added. Those guys are great regardless. Cheers
@@Brian-qg8dg Agreed, Brian. I thought The Moody Blues were gods during my high school years- the 1970's. Is that the 'Isle of Wight' live album or 'Caught Live +5' album you refer to. I owned 'Caught Live'; have often thought of buying the 'Isle of Wight' album, curious how good it sounds.
Thanks!
The company makes more money selling multiple copies to us collectors. That's why the 45 rpm version isn't made known before hand.
Who can afford all LP's on clairty UHQR vinyl 45 cut. Chad at AP and MFSL are making business decisions on the way they release their reissues to maximize their profits. I feel screwed when I felt rushed to purchase kind of Blue in 33 later to find out AP then offered it in the 45RPM format.
I believe it’s about licensing
The 45rpm versions are cut a little hotter by nature and the difference I notice is more in the low end.
Volume is only ONE benefit.
I enjoy your channel, but this time I think you missed the mark. As others have pointed out you should have listened to them after level matching the output for the 33 & 45 rpm versions. On most records there seems to be more "space" between the instruments, greater detail retrieval & overall slightly better sound. But the two real reasons are convenience and price. Some people don't like the extra side changes and some LPs just aren't really suited for the extra splits. As for price: I own 96 regular Analogue Productions LPs that I generally payed $40 to $60 for. At prices of $99 -$150 for UHQRs the economics don't work out for myself and many other people. Frankly not all LPs need the ultimate treatment. Regular Analogue Productions titles often sound amazing at 1/3 to 1/4 the price. If it was the new normal to issue these titles all at 45 RPM on Clarity vinyl, I would have far less audiophile records in my collection. I feel what they are doing now is the right method.
Thank you. Again. This was just a very primitive test.
Could also just do a needledrop and compare the waveforms. Then you wouldn't have to sit thru So What eight times 😄
A: because if they pressed everything on clarity vinyl they couldn't up charge the uhqr to $150.
Yeah - no thanks. Give me the regular 33rpm edition please. Keep the box, thanks. A couple of ideas for you (feel free to take or leave them). If you compare waveforms you can illustrate what you hear. On a side note: I'm not an expert but maybe back up from the camera a bit - it just comes off as really intense in the frame. Maybe a bit of background music, as well? A bit more relaxed videos methinks. Your channel tho. Peace.
Yeah if you think about it 45rpm has always sounded better than 33rpm!
Nice job....but I say no thanks to 45 RPM!!!! Every audiophile release should be offered in 33 RPM....no I do not want to get up repeatedly to change or replay a side....personally I think the difference is minimal even with my VPI Turntable. Not sure that everyone who ordered the upcoming Van Halen reissues realizes the average time of each record is 26 minutes.....each side is about 6-8 minutes in length! I don't care how great they sound....me personally....I will stick with my Ryan Smith reissues 👍
Why everything could not - or SHOULD NOT - be cut at 45 rpm?
That's because most 45 rpm releases degrades the musical (though not technical) experience of the album.
So if you're more interested in the technic - 45 rpm is the way to go.
If you buy albums because of the music - and want to listen to it the way the artists intended to - the 33 rpm should be your choice.
This of course given that the sound quality of the 33 rpm-version is good. Which is the case
Think of how Sgt. Pepper would be experienced if it was on 4 sides/45 rpm... Not the masterpiece it really is.
And clarity-vinyl... Hmmm.
I've got Japanese pressed vinyls (from JVC) from the 80's that are far more silet than the clarity vinyl that Chad Kassem and others are very proud of...
Seems I'm a Kevin Gray fan boy... 😄
A decibel meter measures loudness. It does not in any way measure sound quality. It sounds like you are trying to use a decibel meter to measure dynamic range. The correct tool for that is an oscilloscope to measure the wave forms and see the actual dynamic range. Also, while dynamic range is PART of what makes a recording great, it is still not the whole story. The rest of the story involves equalization and the source of the recording. Mastering engineers will make equalization adjustments depending on where the recording is going to ultimately be used. Because of tracking issues, there are eq changes that are made for 33 vinyl and 45 vinyl which are not needed to digital files, CDs or SACD. Your use of a decibel meter to judge the quality of a recording is just silly.
If the future decides all vinyl will be 45 rpm then can I request 24” albums to save my legs. 😂😂
lol😆
As I stated, I am not against the general idea that 45 rpm sounds better to some minor degree, but what I am rather slackjawed right now about is what you used to support this idea.
You want to prove the 45 sounds better than the 33.3?
Then drop some LEVEL MATCHED comparison flacs of KOB 33.3 and the 45.
Take the loudness factor completely out of the equation.
Because your meter test is showing you are being fooled that the 45 KOB based on nothing more than decible differences and not fidelity/sound quality.
Which completely underminds your passion that 45 sounds better than 33.3.
Cost
It’s all about marketing. Is the difference that vast that someone would buy the same album twice in search of audiophile nirvana? Probably so and the labels doing this realize there’s an audience for it. They appeal to those that are inflicted with FOMO.
Money costs. That’s the answer.
Have a sale once and awhile show some respect to the people that built the company, for God's sake. Most of us are not rich and I'll bet in the future that we, who can maybe buy 1 record a month won't be customers for long.
Yes, 45 rpm based on physical potential is superior to 33 rpm. My problem is with the remastering of these LPs versus the original best version of the original pressings. Often, modern remasterings miss on sound quality. Possibly some of the modern 33 and 45 remasterings/recuttings are equal to or better sounding than the originals (which are generally prohibitively expensive, rare to find in mint condition and have lesser pressing quality). I have about 200 sealed 45 rpm mostly jazz LPs which I do not want to unseal until I read about their sound quality; otherwise, my very high end digital system will render good quality CD remasterings as good or better than the modern remasterings/pressings.
Much appreciated. I'm curious to know when u will be unsealing all those records. Let me know.
@@stevewestman7774 After I confer with some on-line reviews, my friends Robert Pincus and Bob Donnelly. We're also friends of Kevin Gray....
Not everyone want's 45rpm. It may be what audiophiles want but they are not the only customers of the record companies. i'm a musician, i don't need ultra high quality. I just need to hear clearly. I listen for tempo variation in time signature, key/concert pitch variation, harmony, timbre, delivery... rather than sound stage, instrument separation and hi-frequency reproduction.
So why are you people content with 45rpm? Why not demand records are cut at 78rpm. This would give around 4min per side and double the "quality" of 45 removing inner grove distortion. You would need to get up and change the record every track. But no problem right?
After all.... this is how it was done back in the day... it's why we have the term "Album"...
a 12" book with rigid spine containing leaves that hold 8 or 10 discs, of 78rpm recordings, by an single artist or performer. Who needs a box?
Anything that has a higher average volume will sound better than a quieter recording…. Loudness doesn’t equate to “better”
I dislike vinyl albums that have only five or eight minutes of music on one side. I have some 45 RPM albums that have 14 to 15 minutes on each side and that is a much better listening experience.
Personally I consider any listening experience unacceptably inferior if the vinyl isn't cut at 78 rpm: yes this means I have to flip the records 3 times just to hear the title track of Aja, but if I can't hear the assistant engineer's indigestion in the recording then I have to ask myself why am I even bothering.
Seriously? It's all about every aspect of the cost of production.