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I would think mine is. I’m running Khorns as mains and chorus 1’s and Cornwall 1’s as surrounds and a Heresy 1 as a center channel. My sub is a REL 15” Predator. Also Klipsch ceiling speakers. Jeff Rowland amps with a JBL processor. It’s fun!
I’ve been into Home Theater for decades but somehow your explanations make me feel like I just learned something new, keep up the good work you’re doing
bruh this is the most useful info I have ever watched when it comes to audio. No one explains these things, I'm trying to get into this hobby and I'm lost lol.
Watch all the content you can and compare bros. Don't just foolishly toss thousands at these systems like I did. Buy WHAT U NEED not what u want or what everyone is saying to buy
Best video I’ve seen! Helped me use my spl meter correctly and wow! That’s all I can say just wow! Didn’t know the true effect of finding the perfect levels for my listening
I'm simply turning up/down the level till voices are in the 55-75dB range(depending on how loud they talk) so i can get an "true to life" volume level. Going up to reference is dumb imo since this will start to damage your hearing after watching the full duration of a movie. The reference is only for mixing/mastering a single scene, not a full length movie in one go! Assuming you watch a 2h movie where 30mins of action scene happen, you're already at a high risk of damaging your hearing! For Bass is the 115dB more save tho since it's at the same percieved loudness as a ~90dB 1kHz tone. If you're listening at -10dB you're at ~HALF the perceived loudness of reference. 85dB(A) 8h till damage ocours 88dB(A) 4h till damage ocours 91dB(A) 2h till damage ocours 94dB(A) 1h till damage ocours 97dB(A) 30min 100dB(A) 15min 103dB(A) 7.5min 105dB(A) 4.43min
Reference Level for speakers is 85dB with 20dB headroom for peaks (105dB) and 115dB for the LF Effects channel. The 75dB number only comes from AVRs using 30dBFS test tones instead of 20dBFS (due to them being too loud)
@@avsolutions212 no 30dBfs means 30dB From Full Spectrum. The test tones in an AVR are 30DBFS, so set the MV to 0dB and each channel should be 75dB using a C-weighted SPL meter
Room acoustics make a big difference here too. The additive effect of bouncing echos in an untreated room can make something like -15 db seem either terribly loud and overwhelming vs very manageable.
Yes all over this soundproofed my room and treated it. Also getting over -15db i need more power to my mains as it was muddy. Three power amp for frontstage fixed this as well as bass traps for all the corners and some diffusion around the room
I built my last home theater but had it professionally calibrated and it was at reverence level. At reverence it was way to loud for most of my guests but I loved it.
I've been calibrating my theater to Reference for a few years, and the closest I get to reference for a good mix(like any WB movie) is between -22.0db to -18.0db, and that's loud as heck in my room. For MCU and Disney movies I have to go closer to -15.0db to -13.0db.
Changed my volume scale setting like you showed and watched some action scenes. At -24dB conversation seemed just right in my sweet spot chair and explosions packed a wallop.
I follow Youthman video on setting speakers at reference level and it took my theater to next level. How I know? People who listened to my system before and after knew the difference right away.
Thanks for the explanation, always curious about that. I listen between -20 and -15 db, plenty loud in my room. My Yamaha auto calibration isn't the greatest so I manually adjusted all after calibration.
reference is what you feel is the best sound you have ever heard with in your room. then work all future purchases based on that reference. this is a different angle on reference. not every one can or have the money to install an expensive installation which can achieve reference levels.
I calibrated with the built in software, then manually adjusted each speaker to 85db at 0. I generally listen at -20 for normal shows and up to -10 for good movies.
Good information. I think what the question was referring to was how different sources and different content are calibrated to different reference levels. So while a system may be calibrated to what one considers reference, how do you know what reference level actually is for each thing you are watching? I think the answer is: you don’t know, but it doesn’t really matter. Just put the volume where you are happy and enjoy. It would only be an issue if you find you have to crank your system way up above 0 to get to a volume you’re happy with. If that happens more than occasionally then you may want to recalibrate as you could be introducing digital clipping and noise into the system.
Yes, i wanted to know, how do i know that i am actually watching something at reference when im watching a movie via netflix or via disc. Also there are differencesbetween hardware devices like Roku, google tv orr a Windows PC.
Hi Michiel, unfortunately as shared above, there isn’t a way to know. The only control we have over is calibrating our system to reference. Maybe you can use an SPL meter to get an average volume of the source you are watching but it’s easier to adjust your volume to your liking. I do not recommend watching content at Reference volume as that is pretty loud.
@@VandepoelM I’ve wondered that also. People refer to “reference” all the time but it can be pretty relative thing. Anyway, I don’t think there’s a way to actually know you’re listening at reference for one specific piece of content.
Exactly. Great info in the video as always by Youthman, but not answer to the question. My dream is that every streaming service has a "channel" or program with looping pink noise at THEIR ref lvl.
There is t an answer to the question because it simply cannot be done. All we can do is adjust our volume to our preferred listening level if a source is lower or higher than what we like.
It seems to be that the actual scale (+1 number = +1dB) is the same for relative and absolute scales, just the representation is different. Absolute scale is 0-98 and relative is -79.5dB to +18dB (same possible increments) which tells me that for Marantz AVRs "reference volume" is 80dB.
Hello again Youthman. Well wow!!! Great info!! I have the Klipsch rf7s for fronts, & 5 rc7s for center/surrounds, 2 SVS pb3000s and I usually listen at the highest -15. I just tried at reference level 0 and I thought my eardrums were going to blow out. So then I went up to -5 and it sounded really really good but still just a little bit too loud. I Eventually went up to -10 and that was perfect, but wow what a difference that made in total surround sound and hearing things that I never heard before. Just insane. Definitely paranoid about the neighbors or the police showing up lol but WOW
Because it IS loud! I stated that above as a disclaimer as anything 85 dB and above can cause permanent damage, that’s just common knowledge, a simple Google search will provide that. Anyone that doesn’t find that to be loud over an extended period of time regardless if one’s room is treated or not is irrelevant, and has already probably sustained some sort of loss already. We just need to be safe with our hearing, this isn’t meant to be an attack on one’s personal preference at which they listen to music/movies, it’s just about being safe while doing so.
I’m all for protecting our hearing. That’s why I personally do not watch a movie at Reference volume. I’m typically between -15dB and -10dB. A simple Google search shows 85dB at 8hrs could result in hearing loss. Movies are at most 3hrs. I listen to music maybe 45 min at a time every few months. Pretty sure neither of those pose any threat to hearing loss.
Thank you!!!!! Wondered why my old Yamaha would show relative (had no idea of the difference until you taught me), and why my new Sony shows absolute. I will check to see if my Sony can make this switch. Thanks again!!!
Super excellent description of how this all works. Personally, wifey and I listen betwen -10 db and -15 db depending on content and find that a very comfortable (but impressive!) level. - Cheers!
@@Youthman I suppose individual "comfort" levels would be closely tied to speaker efficiency, although cal should compensate for this - my mostly Klipsch speakers are very efficient - as you know. 😁
Regardless of how efficient your speakers are, the volume level is going to remain the same. The only difference is with extremely efficient speakers, your trim levels are going to be way in the negative versus a speaker that is not as sensitive, your trim levels will be up near and close to zero and possibly might have to be in the positives to reach Reference levels
Gold information. But you missed part of the question... "because all sources have different levels". Most (if not all receivers/processors) have the ability to set different input source volumes. I have a Denon. So, what I do is level match my system to reference volume and leave on -0db. I then play a blu-ray that I know has strong transients in it (gun fire, loud wooshes, hard punches, whatever...) and turn off my subs. I then play through that loud section of the disc several times while running an SPL logger set to z-weighted measurement of some sort (REW has an excellent one). You can also just run a simple SPL meter from amazon, set to c-weighted, fast and then stare at it while playing that loud passage on your movie. If it hits over or doesn't quite hit 105db, then navigate to your settings, input, input source volume, and then change it. What if your system doesn't hit 105db (at the main listening position) and your input source volume is set to -0db? Then, adjust your trims up (evenly) and try that loud passage again. Continue this rinse and repeat until you hit 105db peaks from your speakers. However, do not allow any of your speaker trims to go past -0db. You could run in to digital clipping. Then, you do all of that over again but with your subs on and this time be looking for 115db peaks. Once again, do not allow your sub trims to move past -0db. Try increasing the gain on your sub(s). What if you do all of that and still can hit those SPL metrics? You have now officially confirmed that your system cannot hit reference level at your main listening position. Move your listening position closer if possible and consult the following link (Harmon Room Mode Calculator) to help you position your seat outside of a null in your room: www.harman.com/documents/Room%20Mode%20Calculator_0.xls The instructions are very easy to follow and require minimal effort to achieve real results. Simply place your seats outside of the nulls and experiment with placing your subs right at the nulls on your you front and/or side walls. Home Theater Gurus has an easy to follow guide if you are not very good at self-teaching and I've posted a link to that below: th-cam.com/video/aQERnifPLaI/w-d-xo.html&pp=ygUWaG9tZSB0aGVhdGVyIGd1cnUgcm9vbQ%3D%3D If you've done all of that and you're hitting reference volumes, rejoice! Now adjust each input source volume to match and you're done! This will go much faster on each consecutive input. If you've done all of that and still can't hit reference volume, you've officially exhausted all of your options and you'll just have to be content with what you have. ORRRR you can use your new-found scientific data in a special presentation to your significant other to explain large packages arriving at your doorstep.
This is very similar to what I’ve seen done when you pink noise a room with a new sound system. The mic is set in the middle of the room and a full frequency tone is automated from the board and it automatically raise and lower levels for optimum clarity. Super cool! I really like how you explained how what reference volume really is. I learned alot in this quick video. Great job!
Great info 👍 I have heard of this reference level before but thought it was to loud in my personal opinion. That is the nice thing about having your own setup you can play at the level you want. 👍 I think movie theaters are too loud and they don’t have any bass. My family we watch movies around -30 or little higher. I did get just run room correction on my pioneer receiver a day ago. I have dB meter so I might just adjust again. Thank you and love you video of your home theater transformation over 15 years 👏
Forget & ignore all these people getting excited over the db levels being too high. Most movies average levels are below 65db. Brief moments you get loud explosions or really loud sounds. Most movies never sustain the high levels that people are concern-trolling about! The point of reference is like hdr/Dolby vision, no movies are 100% white full screen she whole movie. Reference level is I believe mostly about having the headroom for the big dynamic effects. If your system is low end or you forgot do disable the dnr on your decoder then yes you if playing at reference level will have a fatiguing experience, however if properly calibrated and with good equipment the dynamic range will be so wide that many times you will be so so far into the safe zone (hearing-wise) that yes the big loud sounds will frighten you or shock you. Professionals know that overusing these loud sounds loses its effect the more it’s used (with exceptions, private Ryan, Christopher Nolan). Good vid youth man keep it up!
In a typical living room, the walls do not absorb sounds like they do in cinema theaters. Therefore, the reference level in cinemas is pleasantly loud for us. The same reference level in the living room results in unpleasant sound sensations. On my RX-A680, I set the listening level to -20dB or -15dB. Rarely at -10dB.
Great video I was curious as to why I was seeing a negative volume on videos I thought it was a balance change due to running amplifiers I changed mine to relative thanks Micheal .
In a previous system, I set things up so that the SPL of a “standard test tone” was 83db, w/a 360watt amp driving the center, and it was very satisfying, no matter what the neighbors might have said. More recently, with a Marantz 7703, 73db as indicated on that unit is okay, although I often have to push it up to 76. What I would suggest is to get the blu ray of Spielberg’s “War of the Worlds” and play it on your system, and whatever level you have to turn it down to to preserve your sanity, Bob’s your uncle and that’s your happy place. Using Audyssey, BTW.
LOL, the key sentence here is "no matter what the neighbors might have said". The problem is that it usually matters if you want peaceful coexistence 🤣
@@Miskatonik If you’re below 60 dB C-weighted at the property line, you should be good. Thankfully our house has very good insulation, sound-wise, and to my knowledge we’ve never exceeded that, with over 3100 continuous watts of amplification. :^)
@@declanfarber Yes, I understand. But I live in a European capital in a flat...so Reference level is a sad joke here. Someday I will retire and move to a house where I can crank up the volume 🙂
@@roostermike123 You could always go outside to the nearest property line and test it. There are some really good SPL meters out there (please not an iPhone app, those things are IMO next to useless, relying as they do on the Apple mic). I have a pair of Hsu VTF-3’s, and it’s a brick building, and using C-weighting (as you should) it’s not a problem, even during “stress testing”. BTW, I’ve been a big fan of Hsu Research since the 90’s days of the giant tube monsters, they are totally impressive, and IMO very musical. They don’t get a lot of attention in the “high end audio press” because reviewers can’t get their heads around how good they are for the money, and, um, they don’t spread the money around with advertising. You can draw your own conclusions about what that means. ;^)
It's worth noting that cinema reference of ~85 dB is really rather loud in a smaller room or theater, due to the nearness to the speakers and the small-room acoustics at play, compared to a theater. In general -10 dB is recommended for in-home systems due to these differences for a perceptible match.
Honest question.... is it really true that smaller rooms or poor room treatment will make the perceived SPL too loud, particularly at reference level? To me, this doesn't make sense, because 85db should be 85db, whether it's a small or big room. Basically, if you measure with an SPL meter, to reach 85db you will need less power in a small room (same is true if you move physically closer to the speaker). Conversely, a large room or a longer listening distance from the speakers with require more power to reach 85db. But as you can see, 85db is 85db, as long as you are calibrating accordingly. Maybe it's not the decibels that are what we perceive is changing when the room size changes.... maybe it's its things like timbre, reflections, decay, and reverb causing one room to sound good with one source but terrible in a different room, same source?
@@brysonfitzgerald5238, some of it is psychoacoustic, that the sound is perceived as louder, and some of it is that for most domestic rooms, room treatment is worse and therefore decay and reflections are less controlled, resulting in a higher perceived volume as well.
Actually, the LFE channel is supposed to measure +10db in band compared to the screen channels. That means, +10db at 30Hz, same thing at 40Hz, 50, 60 and so on. To measure this you need a real time analizer (RTA), not an SPL meter. If measured with an SPL meter, the LFE channel will normally measure around 90 db with -20dbfs pink noise, not 95 (~80 with -30dbfs noise), and peaks will be closer to 110db rather than 115.
Next question. The different sound formats, theyre a bit confusing. 5.1, 7.1, 9.1 and then also atmos or dtsx. This gets quite complicated if you go into details. For example: in 5.1 you want the surround speakers behind the listener on the sides. If you want to upgrade your 5.1 to 7.1 you actually need to move these speakers forward, to the side of the listener( a little in front of them helps the sound from being blocked). And add back surround behind the listener. But what if you dont have a back wall? Back surrounds on the side, behind the listener and one pair in front, is this a good compromise? Or just bad? If you watch 7.1 content on 5.1 setup, are the two channels combined? Then you have front wide speakers, what content uses these? Is this part of atmos? (If yes, how often is this properly utilised?) I tried to find answers about this, and it took a while to digest all this, and im not 100% i understand it fully. You could split this up in multiple videos probably.
Honestly you have a pretty good understanding of it. Dolby Atmos speaker guides will show you what angles your speakers should be placed at depending on the speaker layout of your system - www.dolby.com/about/support/guide/speaker-setup-guides/
Absolutely true and clear explanation, but as I understood 85dB is the average spl for reference lvl? Anyway, with my wife I listen at -10dB 😊, but when alone I like it at 0dB 😄. It's particularly interesting to calculate how many watts you need for that 105dB! That's why I upgraded my main amp to 2x 525W
You are correct. Reference is 85dB with peaks of 105dB. During Audyssey calibration, it uses 75dB for test tones because 85dB is loud to our ears, but it calibrates at 85dB
I've got to do some reconfiguring, my current levels are scary at 0. I've ran the YPAO on my RX-A1080, but I don't think it can adjust the levels low enough with how small my room is and how big my speakers are lol. Klipsch AL-3 La Scala's, R-34c, KG 2.5's, R-41sa, R-120sw x2, in a 10x11 barracks room with concrete walls. I do have dampening to cut the echo out, but man it's crazy how it all sounds at reference.
I think setting up a system to reference isn't too difficult with today's tools. The problem is can the speakers/amps handle it, proper equalization, room treatment, etc. and is the source actually mixed/encoded to that standard. I've found that sources these days do not seem to ever have a consistent level. Most but not all Blu-rays encoded in DTS-HD need to play at -14dB which is 10db off the reference of 85db, so 75db in addition to the +4dB boost most tracks do because they lack a dial norm setting. If the standard -27dB dial norm setting is encoded, you can run those tracks at -10dB. I don't run atmos/DTS-X here but when they fold down into 5.1/7.1 they are most often encoded way too loud to run at -10dB let alone reference. And it's all over the map. I've often times taken a 5.1 DTS-HD Blu-ray track and sync'd to a 4K UHD disc just to avoid the poorly remixed immersive audio. The Bourne Identity is a great example of this. I've also captured some cinema audio tracks from DTS theatrical discs and I can easily run those at -10dB. 0dB is just too hot in a small room. But I consider this a reference and will compare a home mix to them. It really provides a lot of insight into what is wrong with all this home stuff. Shoot, LDs and even some early DVDs have better audio than their Blu-ray counterparts despite being lossy. It's all in the mix! TL;DR: you can align your system correctly all day long but the remixes and encodes on so many modern discs are horrible. Streaming content is even worse. No consistency at all.
This is partly why I feel Dynamic EQ fails because it assumes a 0 reference level. And it is quite clear that the volume swings depending on the disk. I was kind of excited with the premise of the video but simply calibrating your system will not solve this issue. I generally get a feeling right away how loud a movie should be and adjust it to my liking.
I've seen many articles and videos that you calibrate all speakers and the subwoofer to 75 db for reference. I having done that and doing it with the subwoofer being 10 db hotter. I easily like the subwoofer being 10 db hotter compared to the other speakers. My question is this case of preference? When I measure the levels after using Dirac I found the subs were calibrated to around the same level as the other speakers around 75db. I guess I'm wondering which is "right" from a technical perspective.
Hey bud, love your TH-cam channel. Man, learn a whole lot of information about hi power home theater systems. Have a question on separates. I have a Marantz 7706. I have a 2 front, center, rear surround, and 2 front Dolby atmos up-front on the wall. I'm using 4 XLS Drive core crown amplifiers. When I calibrate my system I set the gain volume at 85% on all amps don't want to set at 100% don't want to damage my speakers but I'm sure they can handle the pink noise when calibrating the speaker set up. I'm also using the audyssy pro application. My question is, should I set the amps at 100% when running the system calibration? I would appreciate any inf bud. Thank you in advance
While we assume they adhere to these mastering standards it is clear some movies are louder than others. An example is Tenet. I feel like with some movies you really need to get the SPL meter out. I’m fine really not watching at reference level. Want to save my hearing for old age.
Have Yamaha receiver. Most movies I play is at -31.5. Is not might vary to -35. Will to listen to this video. Since I'm my 30 minutes lunch :-) Good question, we often here about reference level. To what the heck is that. Also why ask sound is always in mines.
Is my denon broken? I ran Audyessy and my center channel at 0dB MV plays at 95db at my listening position. I re-ran the calibration a few times with the same result.
But I think if u do some changes in the trims manually like for level matching and doesn’t consider the reference level at that time it may cause a deviation rit, ? just to avoid confusion .
If you’re making adjust to the trims, it should only be done using an SPL meter to make sure there at reference level. If you choose to deviate from that, of course you’re going to run into an issue of not being calibrated for Reference Level
Michael, incredible description of reference. With that said, I interpreted the question differently. I didn’t understand it relative to your system being calibrated to reference, but how do you know where reference is relative to different source material. Not all source material is mastered the same. There isn’t a 100% standard. Take all the marvel movies for example. People have bashed them for how weak they are compared to other studios. I find that I watch most movies around -15 to -12dB. Marvel movies, I have to turn my system up to -10 to -5 to get roughly the same volume I typically listen. Meaning, listening at 0 for say a Marvel movie vs Bumblebee will be a massive difference. Anyway, take or leave my thought, but that’s how I interpreted his wuestion
If that is what he was referring to, there’s nothing you can do about it. If it’s not loud enough, simply increase the volume. There’s no calibration that will account for that.
@@Youthman my old Denon allowed you to adjust the volume before doing the auto calibration. Those on AVs always recommended setting it at -10dB for the calibration. I recall doing that once, then did it again at 0 then I forgot over time which one was reference. Lkl
This is how I interpreted the original question as well. He specifically mentioned "different sources"... So a UHD disc player vs. Plex on an HTPC vs. a Roku or Apple TV. All playing the same movie may all measure different SPLs at the same "relative volume" on your receiver. How I do it is calibrate to a calibration disc using your UHD player and just adjust to whatever the streaming services/playback devices give you... They will all play back at different levels so if your device or receiver has a trim or "input level adjust" you can get it to closely match using an SPL meter. Otherwise you just have to live with it and adjust the volume based on your ears' preference.
Speaking of room calibration is there a way to use/add dirac live to your receiver/processor doesn't have it built in? My pioneer elite vsx-lx503 has MCACC and seems to work ok but I'm sure using dirac live would be better.
Hey buddy God bless you!! I both a Sony 790 but I haven’t figured it out how to calibrate my levels can you help me out and I will really appreciate it thank you?
Is it possible when manually calibrating the speakers to for example set the receiver to -20db and reference the speakers to 55db so I don't annoy the neighbors
Auto Calibration will calibrate for Reference Level, regardless of where you have your initial volume set. Remember, just because you calibrate for Reference, doesn’t mean you have to listen at Reference. Just turn your volume down so you don’t annoy your neighbors
Here is a question that might be interesting to answer via video - if you run Audessy room correction and the compare Audessy on vs Audessy off and you can't tell the difference, why might that be? (Poor hearing aside, which I don't think I have ;))
I would be hesitant to make a video answering that question as I would simply be guessing at what it could be. It could be that your room is good acoustically and Audyssey doesn’t need to do much correcting. Other than that, I’m not sure what it could be.
I just searched through the menu structure of my Onkyo TX-NR656 and didn't find an item to change the volume scale. Is it not a feature offered on all AVRs??? There was a volume menu item under Audio Adjust (I think). But, the different scales wasn't one of the options. Thanks!
Great video youthman and excellent explanation as usual. But just to clarify, doesn't this still not solve the issue of different sources being at different levels? Ive been using the 0-98 level just cause I find it easier, but I do like the reference way as well. Either way, I still often just do a quick rough estimate using my phone SPL meter to see what the sound level is. Some movies it's loud at one level, and the next movie will be super quiet at the same level. And then it complicates it if you switch from Xbox blu ray to an Amazon stream.
Sorry youthman. Saw your answered this on one of your other posts. I'm usually pretty good with just doing the quick check on my phone to make sure I'm not being too crazy. I've watched you videos about your awesome JTR speakers (as well as you videos with your Klipsch lascala's), do you always watch movies with the speakers calibrated at their correct level or do you ever turn up the level on your subwoofers a few dB?
Hello Michael, I have a Marantz 6011, (just running in 5.2) and -12 has always been the magic number in my 24x18' space. I am thinking this is with C weighting for those DB measurements ?
Michael, I somehow disagree. Not considered to my understanding is the speakers efficiency…. At least if comparing to my Anthem AVM60. I usually listen @-25dB on the scale which is about 78dB SPL per single speaker measured… the efficiency of my speakers is at 96dB. Assuming somebody else’s speakers with 81dB, he must turn up the AVR to -10dB to achieve the same SPL, correct?
Speaker efficiency wouldn’t change what Reference Level is. My speakers are very efficient so my trims are close to -12dB. With less efficient speakers, your Anthem will simply increase your trim levels to calibrate to Reference. No matter what AVR, processor or type speakers you have connected, if they are all calibrated for Reference, 0dB will be the same for all
I have tried using SPL meters to setup my speakers but it just doesn’t work for me. The readings jump so much that i can’t set it to 75db. It hits 75 but then goes down to 72 and then to 76 and then back to 75 and then back down to 72 lol why??? I just end up using an app on my iPhone that it’s way less jumpy. When it hits 75 it hovers Around 74/75 without all the spikes
Do you ever go back in an manually adjust levels w\ an SPL? Ive found that despite the results from Audyseey X32 (3700H) that minor adjustments sometimes need to be made to get to 75db across all channels. That being said, im using my phone as an SPL and its probably not very accurate... Just curious if folks with more experience and better gear see the same apparent\alleged inconsistencies. Thanks for your content!
I'd never heard the terms relative and absolute volumes . I always preferred the relative setting I'd had with my Pioneer AVR and missed them moving over to Sony when I upgraded to Atmos capable AVR. Sadly Sony doesn't allow me to change this ...
Some mixed up information in this video. For reference volume (RV), all speakers should be calibrated to 85dB, which gives speakers 20dB headroom (105dB) and LFE 30dB headroom (115dB), just like in the movie theatre (ref Dolby Atmos Cinema Technical Guidelines white paper). In the movie theatre, the calibrating engineer is listening to 85dB pink noise, but the AVR manufacturers decided that would be too loud and fatiguing for the home user, so they reduced the pink noise by -10dB, to 75dB. And that is why you set your levels against 75dB on your SPL meter. Like this you will still hit 85dB at RV, but that is ONLY if you use the AVR pink noise generator. If you use an audio disk or other source for pink noise, you have to read the accompanying information as it might require setting your levels to 85dB or other. (source of info is Audyssey Labs FAQ Audyssey Dynamic EQ and Reference Level, in particular read the Audyssey Labs responses on pages 6 and 7)
For further in-depth explanation about calibrated loudness levels, find the article "The Misunderstood 0.1 LFE Channel in 5.1 Digital Surround Sound" from 2000
I just compared an old Avia calibration dvd to the internal tones on a Denon x3600h. When the reciever tones were set to 80db with the relative master volume scale set to 0, the Avia test tones that are supposed to be 85db are 85db.
Very useful video! Thanks! In my experience, when I watch a 4k movie through a disc, -30dB's from reference is pretty loud! But at the same exact volume, Netflix movies/series is not that loud.. How can I change this? Does this mean that I have to adjust the source level to +10dB's for Netflix in order to achieve Reference volumes?
Just a question that I've always wondered... When running the calibration of my Amp, what level should I set the volume to? Does it make a difference? We have a fairly powerful system in a small room so we typically listen at -40db for music but movies range from -25db to -15db, so is it relative to the volume you run the calibration at? i.e. should I run calibration at -0.0 to set that as reference?
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I would think mine is. I’m running Khorns as mains and chorus 1’s and Cornwall 1’s as surrounds and a Heresy 1 as a center channel. My sub is a REL 15” Predator. Also Klipsch ceiling speakers. Jeff Rowland amps with a JBL processor. It’s fun!
The video isn’t really about the equipment but was more about discussing what Reference Level is and calibrating your system for it.
@@Youthman Yeah, I had a brain fart🤪
I’ve been into Home Theater for decades but somehow your explanations make me feel like I just learned something new, keep up the good work you’re doing
bruh this is the most useful info I have ever watched when it comes to audio. No one explains these things, I'm trying to get into this hobby and I'm lost lol.
Yo! I feel the same way. This is very helpful to us newbies....lol!
Watch all the content you can and compare bros. Don't just foolishly toss thousands at these systems like I did. Buy WHAT U NEED not what u want or what everyone is saying to buy
Glad you’re finding the videos helpful
Best video I’ve seen! Helped me use my spl meter correctly and wow! That’s all I can say just wow! Didn’t know the true effect of finding the perfect levels for my listening
@@YouthmanI need help what is better speaker towers or bookshelf speakers I’m soooo lost
I'm simply turning up/down the level till voices are in the 55-75dB range(depending on how loud they talk) so i can get an "true to life" volume level.
Going up to reference is dumb imo since this will start to damage your hearing after watching the full duration of a movie.
The reference is only for mixing/mastering a single scene, not a full length movie in one go!
Assuming you watch a 2h movie where 30mins of action scene happen, you're already at a high risk of damaging your hearing!
For Bass is the 115dB more save tho since it's at the same percieved loudness as a ~90dB 1kHz tone.
If you're listening at -10dB you're at ~HALF the perceived loudness of reference.
85dB(A) 8h till damage ocours
88dB(A) 4h till damage ocours
91dB(A) 2h till damage ocours
94dB(A) 1h till damage ocours
97dB(A) 30min
100dB(A) 15min
103dB(A) 7.5min
105dB(A) 4.43min
Reference Level for speakers is 85dB with 20dB headroom for peaks (105dB) and 115dB for the LF Effects channel. The 75dB number only comes from AVRs using 30dBFS test tones instead of 20dBFS (due to them being too loud)
30dbfs means, is your avr master volume? When you level matching the speakers do you put your master volume at -30dbfs?
@@avsolutions212 no 30dBfs means 30dB From Full Spectrum.
The test tones in an AVR are 30DBFS, so set the MV to 0dB and each channel should be 75dB using a C-weighted SPL meter
@@jamiet74 thank you so much for reply
That's what I also understood 85dB is reference lvl
Finally I get it now.....thanks when someone takes time out to explain, was able to change setting to relative in my Onkyo.
Awesome! I’m glad you found the video helpful
Room acoustics make a big difference here too. The additive effect of bouncing echos in an untreated room can make something like -15 db seem either terribly loud and overwhelming vs very manageable.
For sure. I’m all for adding room treatments.
Absolutely. I was shocked seeing the 10db of room gain at 50hz. DSP can definitely do wonders.
Yes all over this soundproofed my room and treated it. Also getting over -15db i need more power to my mains as it was muddy. Three power amp for frontstage fixed this as well as bass traps for all the corners and some diffusion around the room
I built my last home theater but had it professionally calibrated and it was at reverence level. At reverence it was way to loud for most of my guests but I loved it.
I’m glad it was well revered at those levels
Keep in mind that reference level is used in large rooms(theaters). In a smaller space, you'll likely run 10-15db lower.
@@grandmasteraj855 It sounded fantastic! Unfortunately I sold that house along with the theater. I'll build another one day, I always do lol.
@@mephInc I turned it up! Joke lol
I've been calibrating my theater to Reference for a few years, and the closest I get to reference for a good mix(like any WB movie) is between -22.0db to -18.0db, and that's loud as heck in my room. For MCU and Disney movies I have to go closer to -15.0db to -13.0db.
I’m usually -15dB to -10dB.
Dude i can listen comfortably(my comfort/not others)at about 28db.Granted i have not dialed in my ARC/Genesis.My boot up level is 35 db.
@@Youthman i thought you went louder -6 to -12 is my listening level
28dB? Do you mean -28dB? Nothing wrong with listening that low. It’s just not very impactful to me.
@@Youthman yes,my settings is boot up -35db max 0db
For a noobie like myself your video content is a master class for us up and comers in home theatre.
Changed my volume scale setting like you showed and watched some action scenes. At -24dB conversation seemed just right in my sweet spot chair and explosions packed a wallop.
Interesting, reference has such a different meaning for stereo music. Helps explain why avr volume reads like that
You’ve just given my setup a new life/experience, thanks!
I follow Youthman video on setting speakers at reference level and it took my theater to next level. How I know? People who listened to my system before and after knew the difference right away.
I’m glad you found the video helpful
Thanks for the explanation, always curious about that. I listen between -20 and -15 db, plenty loud in my room. My Yamaha auto calibration isn't the greatest so I manually adjusted all after calibration.
I too am usually between -15dB and -10dB
You're fine. Reference level is used in large theaters. The smaller the room, the easier it is to get louder
@@Youthman me too!
reference is what you feel is the best sound you have ever heard with in your room. then work all future purchases based on that reference. this is a different angle on reference. not every one can or have the money to install an expensive installation which can achieve reference levels.
Even inexpensive systems can reach reference level
Your on to something with this type video! The thing so far you have done well is in the choice of question
That’s Chris. I’m trying to serve my audience the best that I can. Figured answering their questions that many others might have would be good
I calibrated with the built in software, then manually adjusted each speaker to 85db at 0. I generally listen at -20 for normal shows and up to -10 for good movies.
Good information. I think what the question was referring to was how different sources and different content are calibrated to different reference levels. So while a system may be calibrated to what one considers reference, how do you know what reference level actually is for each thing you are watching? I think the answer is: you don’t know, but it doesn’t really matter. Just put the volume where you are happy and enjoy. It would only be an issue if you find you have to crank your system way up above 0 to get to a volume you’re happy with. If that happens more than occasionally then you may want to recalibrate as you could be introducing digital clipping and noise into the system.
Yes, i wanted to know, how do i know that i am actually watching something at reference when im watching a movie via netflix or via disc. Also there are differencesbetween hardware devices like Roku, google tv orr a Windows PC.
Hi Michiel, unfortunately as shared above, there isn’t a way to know. The only control we have over is calibrating our system to reference. Maybe you can use an SPL meter to get an average volume of the source you are watching but it’s easier to adjust your volume to your liking. I do not recommend watching content at Reference volume as that is pretty loud.
@@VandepoelM I’ve wondered that also. People refer to “reference” all the time but it can be pretty relative thing. Anyway, I don’t think there’s a way to actually know you’re listening at reference for one specific piece of content.
Exactly. Great info in the video as always by Youthman, but not answer to the question.
My dream is that every streaming service has a "channel" or program with looping pink noise at THEIR ref lvl.
There is t an answer to the question because it simply cannot be done. All we can do is adjust our volume to our preferred listening level if a source is lower or higher than what we like.
It seems to be that the actual scale (+1 number = +1dB) is the same for relative and absolute scales, just the representation is different. Absolute scale is 0-98 and relative is -79.5dB to +18dB (same possible increments) which tells me that for Marantz AVRs "reference volume" is 80dB.
This is the only video or forum that explained this so I understood!
I’m glad the video was helpful
Hello again Youthman. Well wow!!! Great info!! I have the Klipsch rf7s for fronts, & 5 rc7s for center/surrounds, 2 SVS pb3000s and I usually listen at the highest -15. I just tried at reference level 0 and I thought my eardrums were going to blow out. So then I went up to -5 and it sounded really really good but still just a little bit too loud. I Eventually went up to -10 and that was perfect, but wow what a difference that made in total surround sound and hearing things that I never heard before. Just insane. Definitely paranoid about the neighbors or the police showing up lol but WOW
I have to chime in and say that 85dB is LOUD. I do watch certain movies at that level but I have to disagree and say that 85dB is indeed very loud.
Agreed 💯
I listen to music around 85dB. I don’t find that loud in a fully acoustically treated room. Curious if your room has acoustic treatment?
Because it IS loud! I stated that above as a disclaimer as anything 85 dB and above can cause permanent damage, that’s just common knowledge, a simple Google search will provide that. Anyone that doesn’t find that to be loud over an extended period of time regardless if one’s room is treated or not is irrelevant, and has already probably sustained some sort of loss already. We just need to be safe with our hearing, this isn’t meant to be an attack on one’s personal preference at which they listen to music/movies, it’s just about being safe while doing so.
I’m all for protecting our hearing. That’s why I personally do not watch a movie at Reference volume. I’m typically between -15dB and -10dB. A simple Google search shows 85dB at 8hrs could result in hearing loss. Movies are at most 3hrs. I listen to music maybe 45 min at a time every few months. Pretty sure neither of those pose any threat to hearing loss.
Thank you!!!!! Wondered why my old Yamaha would show relative (had no idea of the difference until you taught me), and why my new Sony shows absolute. I will check to see if my Sony can make this switch. Thanks again!!!
Glad you found the video helpful Benjamin
wow i never new that thankyou learning all the time thankyou 👍
Me too Paul
Super excellent description of how this all works.
Personally, wifey and I listen betwen -10 db and -15 db depending on content and find that a very comfortable (but impressive!) level. - Cheers!
Thank you Gary. My listening preference is the same as yours. 👍
@@Youthman I suppose individual "comfort" levels would be closely tied to speaker efficiency, although cal should compensate for this - my mostly Klipsch speakers are very efficient - as you know. 😁
Regardless of how efficient your speakers are, the volume level is going to remain the same. The only difference is with extremely efficient speakers, your trim levels are going to be way in the negative versus a speaker that is not as sensitive, your trim levels will be up near and close to zero and possibly might have to be in the positives to reach Reference levels
Thanks Youthman! Always the Teacher....
I do my best
Thank you for this explanation it was beyond clear.
Gold information. But you missed part of the question... "because all sources have different levels". Most (if not all receivers/processors) have the ability to set different input source volumes.
I have a Denon. So, what I do is level match my system to reference volume and leave on -0db. I then play a blu-ray that I know has strong transients in it (gun fire, loud wooshes, hard punches, whatever...) and turn off my subs. I then play through that loud section of the disc several times while running an SPL logger set to z-weighted measurement of some sort (REW has an excellent one). You can also just run a simple SPL meter from amazon, set to c-weighted, fast and then stare at it while playing that loud passage on your movie. If it hits over or doesn't quite hit 105db, then navigate to your settings, input, input source volume, and then change it.
What if your system doesn't hit 105db (at the main listening position) and your input source volume is set to -0db? Then, adjust your trims up (evenly) and try that loud passage again. Continue this rinse and repeat until you hit 105db peaks from your speakers. However, do not allow any of your speaker trims to go past -0db. You could run in to digital clipping.
Then, you do all of that over again but with your subs on and this time be looking for 115db peaks. Once again, do not allow your sub trims to move past -0db. Try increasing the gain on your sub(s).
What if you do all of that and still can hit those SPL metrics? You have now officially confirmed that your system cannot hit reference level at your main listening position. Move your listening position closer if possible and consult the following link (Harmon Room Mode Calculator) to help you position your seat outside of a null in your room:
www.harman.com/documents/Room%20Mode%20Calculator_0.xls
The instructions are very easy to follow and require minimal effort to achieve real results. Simply place your seats outside of the nulls and experiment with placing your subs right at the nulls on your you front and/or side walls. Home Theater Gurus has an easy to follow guide if you are not very good at self-teaching and I've posted a link to that below:
th-cam.com/video/aQERnifPLaI/w-d-xo.html&pp=ygUWaG9tZSB0aGVhdGVyIGd1cnUgcm9vbQ%3D%3D
If you've done all of that and you're hitting reference volumes, rejoice! Now adjust each input source volume to match and you're done! This will go much faster on each consecutive input.
If you've done all of that and still can't hit reference volume, you've officially exhausted all of your options and you'll just have to be content with what you have. ORRRR you can use your new-found scientific data in a special presentation to your significant other to explain large packages arriving at your doorstep.
This is very similar to what I’ve seen done when you pink noise a room with a new sound system. The mic is set in the middle of the room and a full frequency tone is automated from the board and it automatically raise and lower levels for optimum clarity. Super cool! I really like how you explained how what reference volume really is. I learned alot in this quick video. Great job!
Thanks Matt that’s pretty cool that you can do that with a pro audio system as well
My Anthem MRX is PUMPING at 28 db.Im running Emotiva T2+ L/R Towers,Klipsch 64 III center,2 Klipsch SPL 120S(sub) and Paradigm ADP 590 V.5 surrounds.
Great info 👍
I have heard of this reference level before but thought it was to loud in my personal opinion. That is the nice thing about having your own setup you can play at the level you want. 👍
I think movie theaters are too loud and they don’t have any bass. My family we watch movies around -30 or little higher. I did get just run room correction on my pioneer receiver a day ago. I have dB meter so I might just adjust again. Thank you and love you video of your home theater transformation over 15 years 👏
Forget & ignore all these people getting excited over the db levels being too high. Most movies average levels are below 65db. Brief moments you get loud explosions or really loud sounds. Most movies never sustain the high levels that people are concern-trolling about! The point of reference is like hdr/Dolby vision, no movies are 100% white full screen she whole movie. Reference level is I believe mostly about having the headroom for the big dynamic effects. If your system is low end or you forgot do disable the dnr on your decoder then yes you if playing at reference level will have a fatiguing experience, however if properly calibrated and with good equipment the dynamic range will be so wide that many times you will be so so far into the safe zone (hearing-wise) that yes the big loud sounds will frighten you or shock you. Professionals know that overusing these loud sounds loses its effect the more it’s used (with exceptions, private Ryan, Christopher Nolan). Good vid youth man keep it up!
Thanks for the kind words Mike.
In a typical living room, the walls do not absorb sounds like they do in cinema theaters. Therefore, the reference level in cinemas is pleasantly loud for us. The same reference level in the living room results in unpleasant sound sensations. On my RX-A680, I set the listening level to -20dB or -15dB. Rarely at -10dB.
I have a fully treated theater room and Reference is too loud for my taste.
Great info. For the first time I understand reference level. Thanks!
Glad you found the video helpful John
Brilliant video. couldn't be perfect timing. I have a DB mic too and today going to make sure all my channels are at the same DB at the listing area.
Ha this video came out at the right time!! Been wondering what reference means the past couple days.
Check that out. That’s pretty cool Jeff thanks for sharing glad you found the video helpful
Great video I was curious as to why I was seeing a negative volume on videos I thought it was a balance change due to running amplifiers I changed mine to relative thanks Micheal .
Glad to help
I have learned so much by watching your videos, thank you for making it easy to understand!
Thanks Matt. I just finished editing a new video. Should be uploaded within the hour
love your shorter videos with tips like this also! thanks!
Thanks Rock. I like to provide a variety of content (long form, short form, full podcast, podcast clips and TH-cam Shorts).
In a previous system, I set things up so that the SPL of a “standard test tone” was 83db, w/a 360watt amp driving the center, and it was very satisfying, no matter what the neighbors might have said. More recently, with a Marantz 7703, 73db as indicated on that unit is okay, although I often have to push it up to 76. What I would suggest is to get the blu ray of Spielberg’s “War of the Worlds” and play it on your system, and whatever level you have to turn it down to to preserve your sanity, Bob’s your uncle and that’s your happy place.
Using Audyssey, BTW.
LOL, the key sentence here is "no matter what the neighbors might have said". The problem is that it usually matters if you want peaceful coexistence 🤣
@@Miskatonik If you’re below 60 dB C-weighted at the property line, you should be good. Thankfully our house has very good insulation, sound-wise, and to my knowledge we’ve never exceeded that, with over 3100 continuous watts of amplification. :^)
@@declanfarber Yes, I understand. But I live in a European capital in a flat...so Reference level is a sad joke here. Someday I will retire and move to a house where I can crank up the volume 🙂
@@declanfarber I often wonder how much the neighbors actually hear from my subwoofers.
@@roostermike123 You could always go outside to the nearest property line and test it. There are some really good SPL meters out there (please not an iPhone app, those things are IMO next to useless, relying as they do on the Apple mic). I have a pair of Hsu VTF-3’s, and it’s a brick building, and using C-weighting (as you should) it’s not a problem, even during “stress testing”.
BTW, I’ve been a big fan of Hsu Research since the 90’s days of the giant tube monsters, they are totally impressive, and IMO very musical. They don’t get a lot of attention in the “high end audio press” because reviewers can’t get their heads around how good they are for the money, and, um, they don’t spread the money around with advertising. You can draw your own conclusions about what that means. ;^)
Thought as much the giveaway are only for us and Canada, well it is what it is
Another terrific youthman video. You always explain things so simple. I always look forward to all your videos
Thank you Jimmy. I want everyone, regardless of their AV experience and background, to be able to enjoy the concepts that I share on my channel.
It's worth noting that cinema reference of ~85 dB is really rather loud in a smaller room or theater, due to the nearness to the speakers and the small-room acoustics at play, compared to a theater.
In general -10 dB is recommended for in-home systems due to these differences for a perceptible match.
That probably explains why I typically watch at -15dB to -10dB
Honest question.... is it really true that smaller rooms or poor room treatment will make the perceived SPL too loud, particularly at reference level? To me, this doesn't make sense, because 85db should be 85db, whether it's a small or big room. Basically, if you measure with an SPL meter, to reach 85db you will need less power in a small room (same is true if you move physically closer to the speaker). Conversely, a large room or a longer listening distance from the speakers with require more power to reach 85db. But as you can see, 85db is 85db, as long as you are calibrating accordingly.
Maybe it's not the decibels that are what we perceive is changing when the room size changes.... maybe it's its things like timbre, reflections, decay, and reverb causing one room to sound good with one source but terrible in a different room, same source?
@@brysonfitzgerald5238, some of it is psychoacoustic, that the sound is perceived as louder, and some of it is that for most domestic rooms, room treatment is worse and therefore decay and reflections are less controlled, resulting in a higher perceived volume as well.
Actually, the LFE channel is supposed to measure +10db in band compared to the screen channels. That means, +10db at 30Hz, same thing at 40Hz, 50, 60 and so on.
To measure this you need a real time analizer (RTA), not an SPL meter.
If measured with an SPL meter, the LFE channel will normally measure around 90 db with -20dbfs pink noise, not 95 (~80 with -30dbfs noise), and peaks will be closer to 110db rather than 115.
Next question. The different sound formats, theyre a bit confusing. 5.1, 7.1, 9.1 and then also atmos or dtsx. This gets quite complicated if you go into details.
For example: in 5.1 you want the surround speakers behind the listener on the sides. If you want to upgrade your 5.1 to 7.1 you actually need to move these speakers forward, to the side of the listener( a little in front of them helps the sound from being blocked). And add back surround behind the listener. But what if you dont have a back wall? Back surrounds on the side, behind the listener and one pair in front, is this a good compromise? Or just bad?
If you watch 7.1 content on 5.1 setup, are the two channels combined?
Then you have front wide speakers, what content uses these? Is this part of atmos? (If yes, how often is this properly utilised?)
I tried to find answers about this, and it took a while to digest all this, and im not 100% i understand it fully.
You could split this up in multiple videos probably.
Honestly you have a pretty good understanding of it. Dolby Atmos speaker guides will show you what angles your speakers should be placed at depending on the speaker layout of your system - www.dolby.com/about/support/guide/speaker-setup-guides/
Absolutely true and clear explanation, but as I understood 85dB is the average spl for reference lvl? Anyway, with my wife I listen at -10dB 😊, but when alone I like it at 0dB 😄. It's particularly interesting to calculate how many watts you need for that 105dB! That's why I upgraded my main amp to 2x 525W
You are correct. Reference is 85dB with peaks of 105dB. During Audyssey calibration, it uses 75dB for test tones because 85dB is loud to our ears, but it calibrates at 85dB
Great tip...cheers youth man
Ha ha 😂 the old MAXELL guy in the chair being blown away.Clever Michael.
Thanks Michael. It fit perfectly
@@Youthman ha ha I gave away my age oh well no big deal ha ha ha ha 😂😂😂
I've got to do some reconfiguring, my current levels are scary at 0. I've ran the YPAO on my RX-A1080, but I don't think it can adjust the levels low enough with how small my room is and how big my speakers are lol. Klipsch AL-3 La Scala's, R-34c, KG 2.5's, R-41sa, R-120sw x2, in a 10x11 barracks room with concrete walls. I do have dampening to cut the echo out, but man it's crazy how it all sounds at reference.
Excellent video which I come across
-20 is where I mostly watch movies -15 for most Marvel movies and streaming services I have never watched a movie at reference
I think setting up a system to reference isn't too difficult with today's tools. The problem is can the speakers/amps handle it, proper equalization, room treatment, etc. and is the source actually mixed/encoded to that standard. I've found that sources these days do not seem to ever have a consistent level. Most but not all Blu-rays encoded in DTS-HD need to play at -14dB which is 10db off the reference of 85db, so 75db in addition to the +4dB boost most tracks do because they lack a dial norm setting. If the standard -27dB dial norm setting is encoded, you can run those tracks at -10dB. I don't run atmos/DTS-X here but when they fold down into 5.1/7.1 they are most often encoded way too loud to run at -10dB let alone reference. And it's all over the map. I've often times taken a 5.1 DTS-HD Blu-ray track and sync'd to a 4K UHD disc just to avoid the poorly remixed immersive audio. The Bourne Identity is a great example of this.
I've also captured some cinema audio tracks from DTS theatrical discs and I can easily run those at -10dB. 0dB is just too hot in a small room. But I consider this a reference and will compare a home mix to them. It really provides a lot of insight into what is wrong with all this home stuff. Shoot, LDs and even some early DVDs have better audio than their Blu-ray counterparts despite being lossy. It's all in the mix!
TL;DR: you can align your system correctly all day long but the remixes and encodes on so many modern discs are horrible. Streaming content is even worse. No consistency at all.
This is partly why I feel Dynamic EQ fails because it assumes a 0 reference level. And it is quite clear that the volume swings depending on the disk. I was kind of excited with the premise of the video but simply calibrating your system will not solve this issue. I generally get a feeling right away how loud a movie should be and adjust it to my liking.
I've seen many articles and videos that you calibrate all speakers and the subwoofer to 75 db for reference. I having done that and doing it with the subwoofer being 10 db hotter. I easily like the subwoofer being 10 db hotter compared to the other speakers. My question is this case of preference? When I measure the levels after using Dirac I found the subs were calibrated to around the same level as the other speakers around 75db. I guess I'm wondering which is "right" from a technical perspective.
Most people run their subwoofers hotter than the rest of their speakers and that is 100% normal. I tend to run mine about 5-6 dB hot in my room
How do you calibrate to reference? Do room calibration at reference level?
I shared the video in the description and at the end of the video
Thanks for sharing this great information.
Thanks David
Thanks youthman!
Great clear info, cheers. The only problem is what to do with neighbours😂 I need a detached cave where I can play at the volume I want.
Invite them to join you. 😉
Very helpful. Thanks.
Should I change my Receiver to Relative volume and then Calibrate.?
Hey bud, love your TH-cam channel. Man, learn a whole lot of information about hi power home theater systems. Have a question on separates. I have a Marantz 7706. I have a 2 front, center, rear surround, and 2 front Dolby atmos up-front on the wall. I'm using 4 XLS Drive core crown amplifiers. When I calibrate my system I set the gain volume at 85% on all amps don't want to set at 100% don't want to damage my speakers but I'm sure they can handle the pink noise when calibrating the speaker set up. I'm also using the audyssy pro application. My question is, should I set the amps at 100% when running the system calibration? I would appreciate any inf bud. Thank you in advance
While we assume they adhere to these mastering standards it is clear some movies are louder than others. An example is Tenet. I feel like with some movies you really need to get the SPL meter out. I’m fine really not watching at reference level. Want to save my hearing for old age.
Thanks! 🙏 YouthMan this is an amazing Video.
Thank you Jonathan
Nice one... Keep going man..
Hello i use 85db at -20 db lfe +6.5 db and dialog booost at 3.5 db is that bad ? And yes i use this everday all day every day
Have Yamaha receiver. Most movies I play is at -31.5. Is not might vary to -35.
Will to listen to this video. Since I'm my 30 minutes lunch :-)
Good question, we often here about reference level. To what the heck is that. Also why ask sound is always in mines.
Glad the video was helpful
Do you need to have the AVR at a certain volume level to run auto calibration
No it will set it during calibration.
Is my denon broken? I ran Audyessy and my center channel at 0dB MV plays at 95db at my listening position. I re-ran the calibration a few times with the same result.
The reference volume also depends on the trim of ur levels setting
The trims are used to calibrate to Reference.
But I think if u do some changes in the trims manually like for level matching and doesn’t consider the reference level at that time it may cause a deviation rit, ?
just to avoid confusion .
If you’re making adjust to the trims, it should only be done using an SPL meter to make sure there at reference level. If you choose to deviate from that, of course you’re going to run into an issue of not being calibrated for Reference Level
@@Youthman got it, 😊
Thanks ,Michael !Really learn a lot from your video!👍
Thank you kindly
GREAT SIMPLE VIDEO
Michael, incredible description of reference. With that said, I interpreted the question differently. I didn’t understand it relative to your system being calibrated to reference, but how do you know where reference is relative to different source material. Not all source material is mastered the same. There isn’t a 100% standard. Take all the marvel movies for example. People have bashed them for how weak they are compared to other studios. I find that I watch most movies around -15 to -12dB. Marvel movies, I have to turn my system up to -10 to -5 to get roughly the same volume I typically listen. Meaning, listening at 0 for say a Marvel movie vs Bumblebee will be a massive difference. Anyway, take or leave my thought, but that’s how I interpreted his wuestion
If that is what he was referring to, there’s nothing you can do about it. If it’s not loud enough, simply increase the volume. There’s no calibration that will account for that.
@@Youthman my old Denon allowed you to adjust the volume before doing the auto calibration. Those on AVs always recommended setting it at -10dB for the calibration. I recall doing that once, then did it again at 0 then I forgot over time which one was reference. Lkl
Current AVR’s do not need to adjust your volume prior to calibration.
This is how I interpreted the original question as well. He specifically mentioned "different sources"... So a UHD disc player vs. Plex on an HTPC vs. a Roku or Apple TV. All playing the same movie may all measure different SPLs at the same "relative volume" on your receiver. How I do it is calibrate to a calibration disc using your UHD player and just adjust to whatever the streaming services/playback devices give you... They will all play back at different levels so if your device or receiver has a trim or "input level adjust" you can get it to closely match using an SPL meter. Otherwise you just have to live with it and adjust the volume based on your ears' preference.
Thanks for the explanation, YM!
No way I could listen at 0.0 haha I'm with you on the -15 to -10 can't imagine why I would go past that
Speaking of room calibration is there a way to use/add dirac live to your receiver/processor doesn't have it built in? My pioneer elite vsx-lx503 has MCACC and seems to work ok but I'm sure using dirac live would be better.
miniDSP offers products with Dirac Live built in.
@@Youthman using mini dsp require running a stand alone amplifier?
I’m not sure exactly how they work and what you will need, you would have to check with them
So the speakers gotta be at 75db and the subwoofer will be at 85db?
I like the video recording, which camera is this?
Canon R6 with 15-35mm 2.8 lens
How do you change a Sony receiver from Absolute to Relative?
When my neighbors start screaming that's reference level
Awesome information
Thanks Dave
Just set to reference on sr-7013 but now volume won't go above -6bd, volume limit is set to off. Watching via Amazon
Hey buddy God bless you!!
I both a Sony 790 but I haven’t figured it out how to calibrate my levels can you help me out and I will really appreciate it thank you?
Is it possible when manually calibrating the speakers to for example set the receiver to -20db and reference the speakers to 55db so I don't annoy the neighbors
Auto Calibration will calibrate for Reference Level, regardless of where you have your initial volume set.
Remember, just because you calibrate for Reference, doesn’t mean you have to listen at Reference. Just turn your volume down so you don’t annoy your neighbors
Here is a question that might be interesting to answer via video - if you run Audessy room correction and the compare Audessy on vs Audessy off and you can't tell the difference, why might that be? (Poor hearing aside, which I don't think I have ;))
I would be hesitant to make a video answering that question as I would simply be guessing at what it could be. It could be that your room is good acoustically and Audyssey doesn’t need to do much correcting. Other than that, I’m not sure what it could be.
@@Youthman Totally fair. I really appreciate you taking the time to respond here via the comments and answering the question directly.
Thanks
Hmmm.....interesting as always Michael! Keep up these vids!
I’m trying 👍
I just searched through the menu structure of my Onkyo TX-NR656 and didn't find an item to change the volume scale. Is it not a feature offered on all AVRs??? There was a volume menu item under Audio Adjust (I think). But, the different scales wasn't one of the options. Thanks!
Unfortunately, not all AVR's offer this option.
Great video youthman and excellent explanation as usual. But just to clarify, doesn't this still not solve the issue of different sources being at different levels? Ive been using the 0-98 level just cause I find it easier, but I do like the reference way as well. Either way, I still often just do a quick rough estimate using my phone SPL meter to see what the sound level is. Some movies it's loud at one level, and the next movie will be super quiet at the same level. And then it complicates it if you switch from Xbox blu ray to an Amazon stream.
Sorry youthman. Saw your answered this on one of your other posts. I'm usually pretty good with just doing the quick check on my phone to make sure I'm not being too crazy. I've watched you videos about your awesome JTR speakers (as well as you videos with your Klipsch lascala's), do you always watch movies with the speakers calibrated at their correct level or do you ever turn up the level on your subwoofers a few dB?
I listen to my movies no more than -18db and it’s loud @10ft away. Can’t imagine doing reference volumes 😳
Hello Michael, I have a Marantz 6011, (just running in 5.2) and -12 has always been the magic number in my 24x18' space. I am thinking this is with C weighting for those DB measurements ?
Hey youthman how would I achieve this with my sony an1000 receiver being that it shows in volume and I can't change it to db
Michael, I somehow disagree.
Not considered to my understanding is the speakers efficiency…. At least if comparing to my Anthem AVM60.
I usually listen @-25dB on the scale which is about 78dB SPL per single speaker measured… the efficiency of my speakers is at 96dB.
Assuming somebody else’s speakers with 81dB, he must turn up the AVR to -10dB to achieve the same SPL, correct?
Speaker efficiency wouldn’t change what Reference Level is. My speakers are very efficient so my trims are close to -12dB. With less efficient speakers, your Anthem will simply increase your trim levels to calibrate to Reference.
No matter what AVR, processor or type speakers you have connected, if they are all calibrated for Reference, 0dB will be the same for all
@@Youthman ok, did never look at it like that… very nice you answered
Glad to help when I can Christian
I have tried using SPL meters to setup my speakers but it just doesn’t work for me. The readings jump so much that i can’t set it to 75db. It hits 75 but then goes down to 72 and then to 76 and then back to 75 and then back down to 72 lol why??? I just end up using an app on my iPhone that it’s way less jumpy. When it hits 75 it hovers Around 74/75 without all the spikes
Do you ever go back in an manually adjust levels w\ an SPL? Ive found that despite the results from Audyseey X32 (3700H) that minor adjustments sometimes need to be made to get to 75db across all channels. That being said, im using my phone as an SPL and its probably not very accurate... Just curious if folks with more experience and better gear see the same apparent\alleged inconsistencies. Thanks for your content!
Yes I do as well - th-cam.com/video/V481X2RHUcA/w-d-xo.html
I'd never heard the terms relative and absolute volumes . I always preferred the relative setting I'd had with my Pioneer AVR and missed them moving over to Sony when I upgraded to Atmos capable AVR. Sadly Sony doesn't allow me to change this ...
Absolute numbers vs relative to reference 😉
I also listen at -10 to -13 volume. 0 is way too loud. Pioneer VSX-503, external amplification.
Some mixed up information in this video. For reference volume (RV), all speakers should be calibrated to 85dB, which gives speakers 20dB headroom (105dB) and LFE 30dB headroom (115dB), just like in the movie theatre (ref Dolby Atmos Cinema Technical Guidelines white paper). In the movie theatre, the calibrating engineer is listening to 85dB pink noise, but the AVR manufacturers decided that would be too loud and fatiguing for the home user, so they reduced the pink noise by -10dB, to 75dB. And that is why you set your levels against 75dB on your SPL meter. Like this you will still hit 85dB at RV, but that is ONLY if you use the AVR pink noise generator. If you use an audio disk or other source for pink noise, you have to read the accompanying information as it might require setting your levels to 85dB or other. (source of info is Audyssey Labs FAQ Audyssey Dynamic EQ and Reference Level, in particular read the Audyssey Labs responses on pages 6 and 7)
For further in-depth explanation about calibrated loudness levels, find the article "The Misunderstood 0.1 LFE Channel in 5.1 Digital Surround Sound" from 2000
I just compared an old Avia calibration dvd to the internal tones on a Denon x3600h. When the reciever tones were set to 80db with the relative master volume scale set to 0, the Avia test tones that are supposed to be 85db are 85db.
How I can calibrate the levels in a Sony STR-DH790 thank you?
Very useful video! Thanks!
In my experience, when I watch a 4k movie through a disc, -30dB's from reference is pretty loud! But at the same exact volume, Netflix movies/series is not that loud.. How can I change this? Does this mean that I have to adjust the source level to +10dB's for Netflix in order to achieve Reference volumes?
Unfortunately, each source can have its own “gain “especially with streaming content, so you will need to adjust the volume accordingly
Just a question that I've always wondered... When running the calibration of my Amp, what level should I set the volume to? Does it make a difference? We have a fairly powerful system in a small room so we typically listen at -40db for music but movies range from -25db to -15db, so is it relative to the volume you run the calibration at? i.e. should I run calibration at -0.0 to set that as reference?
It doesn’t matter what your initial volume is at prior to calibration
@@Youthman thanks so much!
Great video Michael!
Thanks