You Have Only Experienced 25% of Sonic 3
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 24 ก.ค. 2022
- A gameplay-focused deep dive into the wealth of incredible content in Sonic 3, that you were unaware of...until today.
Wanna pick the character in this channel's profile picture? Viewer rewards include getting your name in the credits, sheet music library, and vgm soundtrack of the week: / alexyard
Clips
2:50
Yoshi’s Wooly World gameplay by TH-cam user Zephiel810
Yoshi's Woolly World - Mellow Mode Gameplay
• Yoshi's Woolly World -...
17:04
Arcade Hammer Game clip by TH-cam user Ali H
Winning the Arcade Hammer Machine JACKPOT! new record
• Winning the Arcade Ham...
17:28
Paul Pierce Postgame Analysis clip by NBA-TV / TH-cam user Matthew Lucio
Postgame Presser: Paul Pierce Game 6
• Postgame Presser: Paul...
30:42
James Bond Clip from “Quantum of Solace” by Eon & MGM / Sony Pictures
30:43
Marshall Faulk gameplay by NFL / TH-cam user G.C. Bourque
Marshall Faulk Highlights - High Quality from 'A Football Life'
37:12
Sonic Generations gameplay by TH-cam user Ezodagrom
Sonic Generations - Planet Wisp (Modern)
40:59
Batman Prison Escape from “The Dark Knight Rises”
by Warner Bros. / Legendary Pictures - เกม
My other stuff:
Livestreams 3 times per week on Twitch:
www.twitch.tv/alexyard
Sonic News Roundup Dispatches (monthly):
th-cam.com/play/PLaberbaryjHD_QWtoz1kKo8nXN2pOIQcI.html
Channel for Music Theory videos about Sonic soundtracks (and other games):
www.youtube.com/@alexyardknuckles4379
Nah it's designed in such a way that normal mode is just your time bonus. ring count doesn't matter. it's a game about speed, not about points.
HARDCORE mode is no hit challenge. so you got it a little off.
Whatabout full emerald, super sonic runs?
I mean, there has to be a lot to learn, especially if you still need a good score?
17:36 This makes no sense. If you have to watch a TH-cam video on how to properly play the game from over 20 years ago then it sounds like a flaw in the game.
If you have to force yourself to play a certain way to enjoy a game then thats also a flaw.
I hate timers in any game because it doesn’t allow you to soak everything in.
It ruins the enjoyment of the game by being rushed to get the game over with.
Thats why i always hated unlocks in Resident Evil because they want you to rush in a game where you should be slow and scared, not fast and shooty shooty.
I like to see everything a game has to offer and i always hated that Sonic games make it very easy to miss everything and you cant backtrack or replay a level.
I instead have to make my own fun by taking my time exploring all areas of a level while killing everything possible and collecting every ring possible.
The bonus stages are the worst only because you cant retry.
Despite all this i still like all 3 games.
Sanic 1, 2 & 3 with Knuckles.
Each one got better so my favorite one is S3&Knuckles.
The level design, power ups, mini cutscenes and blood pumping music is the best.
Don’t get all elitist on us on how to properly enjoy and judge a game.
This video is great thus far and i enjoy your explanation on how it was technically supposed to be played, but the fact that nobody did should say a lot on both sides and saying people cant have an opinion unless played otherwise is ridiculous, Wii-Todd-Didd. 😁
😪 Boss battles are all disappointingly easy. I get all excited because the bosses always look awesome and challenging then die in 2 seconds. 😪
When I play through, I adapt my play style to how I think my character would go through the campaign. Sonic is all about the quickest time, Tails is all about saving all the animals, and Knuckles is all about getting all the collectibles.
So kinda like their SA2 characterizations?
What about if you play as Sonic and Tails as partners like 2 player
@@eterxo what would be a fun/challenging mod is if you played as Tails and Sonic was controlled by the AI. You have to keep up and protect Sonic
I'm trying to do that with my PS2 games too, playing them the way the character would do in their adventure. Sligtly moving up the left stick to make the character just walk like he would do on calm moments of the gameplay, and then using my skills to defeat the enemies the best way I can so it's accurate of how the character would fight.
Smart idea
25%?! Oh, my sweet summer child.
Nobody tell him about the millions of Blue Sphere levels.
He must nvr learn about supersonic either. If rings are mellow mode. idk what stupid name he'll give going super
“Remember, if you don’t beat every blue sphere level, you played on easy mode”
@@officialFredDurstfanclub for me it's not worth it to get Hyper Sonic, i just go for Super Sonic as he's easier to get in my opinion
@@fgcnomad5135 it gets the name 3 year old mode
I hate that damn Blue spheres levels, but I played all of them in Sonic Mania for unlocking debug mode
if the developers intended for your score to be reflected by balancing speed, ring collection and badnik chains, perhaps they shouldnt have made it possible to get literally infinite points from bouncing the spin sign around at the end of act 1 (or to grab 300 rings from the glowing sphere bonus stage for that matter)
^ ^ THIS ^ ^
Part of what i love this game is the exploration aspect not only towards finding special stages but hidden monitors as well for shields. Getting those bonuses are fun because the shields unlock more mobility and thus give you even more ways to let you explore the levels. I would never in a million years think about exploring because of points
On the topic of time, don't forget that finishing at 9:59 gives you a 100,000 point time bonus (at least in Sonic 3), which means the maximum score isn't a "speed run," but a "distance run" that maximizes rings and Special Stage score, but always ends at the same time.
This comment made me laugh
@@thecoolbroscoolman4672 turns out that the bonus is real th-cam.com/video/_79ajrKJzgs/w-d-xo.html
I am a year late to reply to this, but you're right. In fact, a max score challenge run suddenly becomes insanely hard, because you now have to time the final hit to every boss in the game.
@@wunnup3229 It's pretty easy to do honestly, just get in your hits until the last one. The only thing not easy is waiting so long for a point bonus lol. It does work on S3&K, not just sonic 3 like caleb mentioned. I thought this was a feature taken out of the game and brought back to mania until I got it on S3&K
@@wunnup3229 Not in Sonic 3. You can farm millions of points per life on the alarms in launch base zone by spin dashing and letting the endless enemies plow into you for 10k each
Two big takeaways from this video:
1. A good scoring system can add a lot of depth to a seemingly simple game
2. I need to call my mom
The part where this video falls apart is that it insinuates that Sonic 3 has such a score system. It really isn't deliberate enough for that. SA2's score system though... damn.
@@deedoubs maybe, but they're not too different. The most notable difference is that SA2 gives you a rank corresponding with your score. That does add some clarity for what the game considers noteworthy player performance, but it also feels a bit too restrictive. In Sonic 3, a higher score can be obtained numerous ways. In SA2, it's impossible to get an A rank on levels like Metal Harbor without completing specific objectives. That makes the challenge much tighter, and I understand people who like that kind of precision, but it comes at the cost of player expression and freedom, which I feel is an important aspect of Sonic. Newer games have it worse, because you can basically get an S rank by clearing the level without dying in an average amount of time.
@@Astro_CrunchI do agree with a lot of what you said here Astro, you and the video creator made a lot of great points. But, I personally find the inclusion of the SA2 ranking system (along with most of the other Sonic games that bring it back with equally tight ranking requirements) provides even more incentive to replay levels, especially considering the fact that it’s really just building on top of the existing score system rather than replacing it. Since ranks are not simply arbitrary numbers, they let the player get a really good idea of their skill level at a quick glance. This makes comparing the grades you got on levels with friends much easier and more memorable. Telling your friends the highest rank you got on City Escape was a B for example will allow them to quickly get a sense of your skill level and provides them with the motivation to want to beat you far quicker as they know that the only rank higher than a B is an A. If say both of you got A ranks on the same level, your rank can still ultimately can be compared if you really wanted to get down to the nitty gritty, plus they’re still used in leaderboard rankings. I do get your frustration with score being tied to specific objectives in SA2 sometimes (even if I’m one of those players who prefer that sort of precision like you said) I don’t think it’s the fault of the ranking system in SA2 for restricting player expression and freedom, but rather SA2’s overall mechanics and design. For example, Sonic Rush has a ranking system too, but it also has the trick system which provides ample room for player expression and freedom, letting you earn score in so many unique ways. I think that’s what makes it one of the most replayable Sonic games of all time
Pizza Tower is proving to me that scoring system are still relevant in the right context.
Why should you call your mom?
Title should be "Player discovers score system and optimal play and treats it as if they found the holy grail of gaming"
Yeah seriously, nice vid but what a stupid clickbait title. “Despite seeing every level in the game, you’ve only experienced 25% of it because you haven’t played for score yet!!!”
Yeah for real. As I watch this video and it's like "next time you play try to improve your gameplay to get the biggest score you can get" for 40 minutes and I'm just here in my head screaming like "THATS WHAT IVE BEEN DOING!" like I don't keep track of the points I score but everytime I play I do try and optimise my gameplay for the best score. I feel like that's just. The whole point of sonic? Right?
@@colossalweeb I agree, yes most people even some pros play a casual playstyle sometimes but that's the beauty of sonic 1, 2, 3 and sonic & knuckles... you can play like that if you want, almost every classic sonic player knows how to play seriously its in the nature of the game, yeah nice video but most if not all of this stuff is common knowledge and some of it he's missing some points on (pun intended)
Haha where are your TH-cam videos on this subject?
No, no he's right. The game is both designed to play through with score in mind and just getting to the end in mind. Not every major title does that especially with the levels remaining the same every time.
Honestly, if this video was framed as a
"Try this Sonic 3 challenge! It will change your way you see the game forever!"
and went for a more fun approach, I feel that more people would enjoy this video....
But that way far less people would check this video.
Absolutely, playing sonic games in this way can be quite fun, but to claim that this is the “true” experience and playing the game how it is actually functions makes you unqualified to review it just makes the video pretentious nonsense. If the developers intended this to be the way to play the game, they should have expressed it in the game, until then, this is a self imposed challenge with no relevance to reviews whatsoever.
@@Leonard_Wolf_2056 so you'd rather get a lot of eyes once that hate your ass and never come back, instead of fewer eyes forever.
Even coming from someone who does pay attention to points, HARD disagree with the point about people who don't play Sonic for points not being allowed to say which game is better. Only in the Sonic fandom have I heard such pretentious nonsense.
Exactly what I was thinking.
It's literally some tryhard trying to be an elitist
Weird, it made a lot of sense to me and I've barely played Sonic.
Totally agreed! You don't have to be a completionist, a speedrunner or even a skilled player to have an opinion on a game. There are games I enjoyed the most when I played them in ways they clearly weren't supposed to be played. There are games I'm very thorough with, basically studying them like a science. Others I casually play through once and never feel the urge to come back. Especially when you're older and time is rare, you don't have to waste it on something you don't enjoy or that stresses you out. If you like a game better in "easy mode", that's fine.
I still don't know what the points are for and I got these games the day they came out. All i know, is they penalize you for being faster.
This is probably the most long-winded way possible (not to mention _insufferably pretentious)_ of restating what those "Can you beat X with Y restrictions?" youtubers say: "this was a fun and new way of tackling my favorite old game:
Seriously.
The complete S3K is my favorite video game of all time.
I've replayed it with every character on at least five different consoles (Basically every time it's in a new compilation)
I assure you, S3K never gets stale.
REAL
u had me going until u said "don't get shield monitors or chaos emeralds", those are literally important and complementary parts of the game, the moment u start doing that u stopped "fully enjoying the game" and started to do a challenge run.
getting chaos emeralds are literally part of the very lore of the game, and lemme tell u how hard it is to even find one on the later stages of the "& Knuckles" levels, once i got so frustrated i entered debug mode just to be able to find them, and i still could barely find any.
also the shields might seem like an easy mode at first, but changing the moveset also provides the player with a whole new range of paths and decisions, because there are many things u can do, or even paths u can take with a shield u can't do without them, but now u also gotta be mindful that some things u can do without a shield u can no longer do. the spiky enemies from launch base are now a permanent threat, since the shields can't break the metal spikes from them, like they were able to in ice cap. some enemies projectiles and hazards now have to be fully dodged, because u don't have the invincibility shield. there are many portions where having a shield might make it harder to avoid damage because of this, since only a few stages have sections where having a specific shield makes ur life easier
I've always played the game trying to take the least amount of damage as possible, since i personally hate losing rings, and love collecting them, i never cared much about going fast, and i find it rly cool to just go and explore the level, search stuff in every corner, this is the one thing most people just completely ignore when playing sonic games, barely anyone nowadays will actually try and explore the level.
lol I think Ive spotted a rare cd fan, good on you o7
that sounds like Sonic CD and if you're talking about Sonic CD you're my new favorite person
That's the reason I love Sonic CD, mostly of level design Glorify the speed and momentum to reach diferent paths, Some ramps combined with speed or spindash open up opportunities to explore places that are difficult to reach normally, Sonic CD levels feel like a playground It's very satisfying
"barely anyone nowadays will actually try and explore the level."
well that's kinda the problem with the way this guy wants everyone to play sonic games / the rankings in 3D sonics. the most important factor is speed, which necessarily disincentivizes exploration.
@@broncos435 Speed disincentivizes exploration *when you know the fastest route.* But needing to find and learn the fastest route in the first place requires exploration, hence the expectation of repeated playthroughs. Earlier playthroughs will be more exploratory, either because you're mostly refusing to be fast altogether in order to appreciate the sights or because you tried to be fast and failed and so have nothing to lose exploring more slowly in order to not fail next time. Later playthroughs will be less exploratory because you already know what the level has to offer, and going through them is just a matter of effective routing and execution.
Nothing burns me out faster than feeling like I have to play perfectly. I have more fun when I'm able to let go.
Amen. I did this shit in the MMZ series and lesser degree in Armored Core. Which are both still favorites of mine but I was young lad then, with more time and patience for that bs.
@goldman77700 never played those but I had a similar problem with metal gear solid series. Especially MGS3 & 4. It descends into a mess when you're spotted until you end up with a pile of bodies with sleep darts in their head and you can resume the awesome espionage power fantasy. I would usually just reset the checkpoint when spotted.
@@gbjon9044 In those games you basically penalized for not doing well because the best skills/equipment were obtained by achieving missions with a high rank.
@@gbjon9044 i had the samd problem in the mgs games, still love em but arghhh i hate being caught
Can relate to this too much
This video shares an interesting perspective on how players can get more out of Sonic 3, and that’s great, but it also comes across as needlessly pretentious. Players are not ‘unqualified’ to compare the quality of Sonic games or wish for certain sequels just because they didn’t play Sonic 3 with an emphasis on score. Passion for deeper game mechanics is fine - but let’s not gatekeep.
We can avoid any potential hurt feelings by using the Yoshi example. If you read an IGN review of a Yoshi game where the reviewer only played on mellow mode, you'd be concerned that the review is not presenting the full picture, since there's a ton of primary game design that wouldn't be "experienced." Similarly if the person evaluated which Yoshi game(s) are the best, they could only comment on which game provides the better mellow mode experience.
@@AlexYardAdventure you can read reviews with nuance in mind without completely discounting *the intended basic way to play*. Mellow Mode is a choice, just like playing for score is a *choice*. You've got the analogy backwards.
I agree that games are at their best when the experience includes and makes the player utilize the deepest mechanics. However, part of a review and a player's experience is having the desire to explore such things as a result of the game's *normal* playstyle. They can then *choose* to interact with the game on a deeper level.
Essentially what you're saying here is that the intended game difficulty is Hard mode. As with any game, the intended experience is Normal mode. Hard and anything beyond it is an extra treat for more confident or experienced players.
@@princetbug I would argue that that’s *highly* variable, since Hard mode *is* the intended experience for some games; it’s sometimes easier to balance around a higher difficulty and then go downwards from there rather than having to reexamine the difficulty at each step upward. Discounting scoring as part of the intended experience also excludes a massive dimension of the game if the game’s level design was built with scoring in mind, which I think does apply to Sonic 3.
In this case, though, Alex is advocating for going actively *against* certain aspects of the scoring system in order to improve it. That kind of self-imposed ruleset cannot reasonably be labeled as the intended experience; it is fundamentally about superimposing your own game design sensibilities upon another developers work. Nor should it be labeled as such to discredit the way in which the vast majority of people *have* experienced the game, whether that way was “intended” or not, and in fact I’d argue the responses have shown that you physically *can’t* do that either.
@Technicolor Mischief-Maker I suppose that's true, some games are indeed balanced around hard difficulty but for starters this is clearly not one of those cases.
there is *nothing* in the game itself that implies these self-imposed rules are the basic way to play.
and typically, in games that are balanced around "hard" mode, normal is actively communicated to be a tutorial or training mode. I would those are the exception rather than the rule, and any game that does not actively make that clear but fans *interpret* to be better when played on the higher difficulty is just that: an interpretation. Just like this video, it's an assumption about what the creator intended that is not stated by the work or the creator themselves, but rather by player's personal experiences and opinions.
@@princetbug I couldn't disagree more, considering normal in modern games is way easier than SNES games, which are already easy(with a few exceptions)
Came here from Pariah695. I never tire hearing from seasoned Sonic players about the technical ins and outs of optimizing the gameplay mechanics. The nuance and depth you explain really paints playing classic Sonic as an art form.
yeah i would like to smoke whatever you are smoking to come with this comment.
@@RmzCrush it’s called Fun bro
@@thecoolbroscoolman4672 And You're Called Missing The Damn Point.
@@Error40448 And you’re 6 months too late pal
@@thecoolbroscoolman4672what does that have to do with anything
If you use more than a half a press you're missing 75% of mario 64.
didnt make sense but ok
@@TrunkSoS Google Pannenkoek Mario 64 Half A Press or ignore my joke
An a press is an a press, you can't say it's only half!
@@meuzi_ ... ok, TJ. Henry. Yoshi >:(
@@meuzi_what do you means by that is not holding the jump
Well clickbaited sir, here was me thinking this was going to be about cut content and not just 47 minutes to say "You can measure your performance by points and time".
fr i thought the madmen saw how the 5 timelines in sonic 2 went and said "let's try again!"
The mission mode in Sonic Origins was one of the few aspects I’d say I like about it, but I really wish Rankings were implemented into the individual games and Story Mode. It would’ve finally given some much-needed in-game context/ justification for the sentimental value of getting better at the game, just like the 3D titles starting with Adventure 2.
mission mode in sonic origins allows you beat sonic 3 while getting ranked in every stage based off time. Its very good for making you feel bad since you're probably gonna take more than 2 minutes in most levels (1 minute required for s rank).
You also get a bunch of glitches though (if you do this DON'T skip the sandopolis act 1 to act 2 transition cuz then you can beat the level in 0:00)
that would explain why they made ranks the way they did in sa2. They wanted to make it easier to keep track of your points, especially since the maps, while large, couldn't be as massive as the maps in Sonic 3 appeared to be. They wanted to make sure you got the most out of your experience in each map. i didnt play much of sa2 though so i might be off a bit
The maps in sa2 vary quite a lot in size, and some of them definitely are smaller, but in the late-campaign sonic/shadow maps I'd say they're bigger. Crazy Gadget, Final Chase, etc. Those absolutely dwarf sonic 3's maps
this is a very interesting point. later sonic titles make you engage with the points system to get rewards and they make it clearer how such things work. when they actually have decent level design, it is fun to get good at the levels.
I've played SA2 for hours and hours, beaten it 3 times and cleared multiple stages with all missions A rank, and I can say you're totally right
My mom would play Sonic & Knuckles by itself all the time and write down her score every time. She got two or three notebooks filled with scores and she would always circle her highest score up to date.
I love your mom.
Well what’re her highest scores, you can’t just say she has 3 notebooks of her scores and not say her best scores for each level
*This is gotta see!*
That’s what I’m saying
@@tacos5682 Sadly it's been years since she's written them down and I'm not sure where it would be or if she even has it anymore. I'll try and remember to ask the next time I talk to her if she knows where it's at anymore.
“ I didn’t collect all the rings in sonic, so my opinion is Null”
I can’t believe you recorded that, watched your video, and then said yeah, I’m gonna let that one go
Get This To 12,000 Likes. NOW
yeah collecting rings actually adds depth to the game and the video exactly explained that, don't know how boring or uncreative you have to be to find a problem with that statment
@@radio100jogosdeemacs2 I may have misinterpreted yours or @whackcracka 's comment, but I believe they meant that you don't need to collect a good chunk of the rings in a level without getting hit (which I admit, I try to do) to have an opinion on the game as a whole (which I also agree with)
Huh. I guess by that logic (his own), he shouldn't have an opinion on the games in the franchise.
Yeah, sorry, no, this is bullshit. The time bonus in Sonic 3 isn't even calibrated to the specific levels. Getting any kind of time bonus in Sandopolis 2 is basically impossible. Meanwhile you can just camp out in Launch Base, spindashing on an enemy spawner, and get points pretty much infinitely.
Speed trials are legit, score runs aren't.
I got through about a half hour of this video before I just could not stand the elitism on display here anymore. Many valid points are brought up regarding level design and replayability, but they're wrapped up in such a passive-aggressive narrative, saying you aren't experiencing the full game unless you play it in a score attack mindset. You CAN experience the full game without going for a high score. Everything mentioned in this video is a natural part of wanting to improve in the game. If you enjoy the game, you'll likely want to explore the levels and find all the alternate and fastest routes. You'll improve your score naturally by getting better, without necessarily aiming for a high score. These aspects of the game aren't locked behind this style of play, they're just a natural progression of the Sonic gameplay loop. And to say that someone doesn't really have a leg to stand on in reviewing a game they play casually or comparing a game to other Sonic games unless they've played for high score is just disingenuous, especially referring to a casual run as "Easy/Mellow Mode." Sonic 3 may be accessible, but even the base game can be quite challenging for newcomers. And no, saying that it's okay to play the game casually doesn't rid you of all elitism. Just because you aren't ACTIVELY shaming casual players doesn't mean you aren't shaming them at all with other passive-agressive comments throughout the video. This is just a lot more Sonic fandom elitism in the form of a video essay.
yeah, this video is exagerated in so many points
This Is Objectively Correct.
@Darktheeagle 100% agreed.
Someone had to say it.
man, maybe dont check the quoted rant i guess in the 45ish minute mark about "The complacent one", like kinda pure elitism mindset at its core. like its ok to be proud of going deeper into stuff and becoming better in something you love, just dont be so up your own ass about it, thinking that you wont consider peoples opinions until they are in your required level of expertise
I think there's a misunderstanding about game design here. There's a reason why you're invincible after you get hit. It's so your character won't get stuck.
The whole vid is doodoo
He probably thought the Silver softlock was the player's fault.
Over-addited players know nothing about the difference between "easy mode" and normal playthrough, because they just play in punish difficulty. If he doesn't play Sonic 2 with spindash, then that's his problem, but don't tell me that's the intended way of beating the game. He is only one step below just going ahead and trying to beat Sonic 3D Blast without jumping (only to say that's the intended way).
this is what i thought, the adding of rings is there to help the player when theyre wit, because youre gonna get hit a lot with the speeds.
to him, i guess you're only a real gamer if you enjoy getting stunlocked lmao
An interesting take, but I disagree. Score is pretty useless by itself, but adds an 'easy mode' by itself in rewarding players with extra lives for large scores at the end of each round. Additionally, rings add to that score bonus each round, so you're still encouraged to pick up large quantities of them leading straight into the 'normal' gameplay you talk about. That's before we even mention the time bonus, which can be significant, and the other bonuses from special stages and the like. This still encourages fast gameplay, collecting as many rings as possible. The default, basically.
So, score is still more of a side-dressing to the main event of the gameplay, taking all things into consideration.
His point is that score allows you to gauge how better you are getting, not that the point of the game is getting points
@@TheBrazilRules who cares about that. Equally false is the claim that you are unqualified to asess the game's quality unless you experience the game this way. So yeah, fringe gaming as opposed to casual gaming, being the former a more refined way and the better way to gaming. BS.
@@federicoberghmans991 lol many of these guys who used the phrase git gud or who do speed runs or harder plays on games basically aren't able to just do a challenge for themselves so they try and justify their achievements by making others at fault for not doing the same as them, I do these challenges if it nets me a trophy, or achievement, so boring to do it as a self challenge unless I have played the game a hundred times through already
Agree. Playing for points is so 1980s, when games just looped and had no endings. Unless your score unlocks new areas that are otherwise inaccessible or new characters, playing for points is just a choice after you've played a game so long it's boring. You're creating an arbitrary goal so you aren't bored on replays.
playing for scores is NOT some outdated thing, just look at the shmup community, it's not because you don't care that no one shoud engage the game in a more compelling form, and if you're really offended by that, perhaps you really should have been belittled like he did in the video.
I feel like this is something I instinctively knew back in the day, but on each successive play through I forgot.. because they were just nostalgia runs; done once or twice a year. It was never quite as fun as it once was because a challenge I didn't realise was there was gone. I rarely make it through a replay in one sitting anymore because of it. Thanks for reminding me what Sonic is really about.
Relatable
I get what you're saying here. But no ive experienced all of Sonic 3k. Time Attack and improving my clear time gives me a great indication of my improvement and learning a level enough to blaze through them is enough for me. Score Attack is just another way to play the game. No less, no more. And getting better at time attack naturally will get you more proficient at not waiting around and badnik bouncing anyway. But great video, well done. No snark
I love your eye opening experience of going after points. I feel it's something most players never even really consider, including me. It's just... Your philosophy about being "allowed" to criticize a game and compare them to each other is so archaic. I'd understand if you were saying things akin to "you can't criticize the parts you've played," but to claim someone can't criticize a game just because they didn't play it like you did? That's... It's too far, man.
Small addendum as I watch. You can exactly tell a player how to feel about an experience. It's cheap enemy placement. Having to learn where they are, even via osmosis, isn't fun to some people. To a lot of people, actually. Saying they simply have to go "you got me, but I'll get you next time" doesn't fix any problem or reveal any hidden wrinkle. That's a statement that solely tells players to avoid the game if they think that's bad design, but in a condescending way.
It would be like if someone played cuphead, chose not to use the shrink maneuver in the plane levels, struggled with those levels, and then criticized the game for not having enough moves or depth of design etc.
@@AlexYardAdventure In a certain sense, yes, but this isn't exactly the same. It's more akin to if someone beat Cuphead without buying any weapons or doing any extra challenges. They've still experienced the game, but not it's whole. They've still, however, done what the game asked them to do, which is to complete it. Regardless of if it would be more fun if they played another way, it's valid to criticize the game for not having successfully led them in that direction. Y'get me?
@@AlexYardAdventure nevermind, you're addressing the core of my philosophy at the end of the video.
This video was a good troll lol. Glad I didn’t take you seriously enough to give you all 47 minutes of ad revenue. People do not play the game like this. Once you beat the game you’ve experienced 100% of it in terms of these old and short classics. Going for score and rings is just arbitrary bonus content that’s optional not even close to a requirement to get the most out of the game
I agree with many points made in this video. SEGA and Sonic Team, who historically were prominent in the arcade gaming space, naturally saw high scoring and point acquisition as a fundamental part of their design for Sonic. However I disagree with the tone of elitism that if you aren't playing for points and ignoring elemental shields ect you aren't "really" playing the game. It has the same vibe as saying if you don't play Pokemon with the nuzlock challenge, then you aren't "really" playing the game you're just playing on easy mode. This isn't like Devil May Cry where the game was clearly designed around playing in Dante Must Die and every other difficulty was scaled down from that base point. You're essentially arguing that Hell And Hell mode is the True Way to play the game. Which is fundamentally just not true. It's a fun gimmick challenge, but it isn't "the rest of the game" by any means.
You mistake playing for points in Sonic 3 to be "Hell and Hell" mode. In fact playing for points is just the normal "Dante Must Die" mode. Using the ring system as infinite shields is mellow mode (below Dante Must Die Mode). I think a lot of the folks who have similar criticism as yours, make this same mistake of perception.
Wanna know how the playstyle I'm advocating isn't just a "fun gimmick challenge?" There's a fanfare and score tally at the end of every act, and an instruction manual with a page to write down your scores.
In other words, I'm not arbitrarily inventing expert-mode criteria and then attempting to gatekeep 'true gamers' on that basis. I can tell you that my gaming skills are far from expert caliber, which provides no obstacle in enjoying the game through a score premise.
@@AlexYardAdventure There aren't any score pages in the Japanese Sonic 3 manual. You could take it upon yourself to write down scores on each zone's respective introduction page (though I shudder to think of the kind of person who'd draw over the zone-unique chibi Sonic and Tails art), but nowhere in the manual does it prompt you to do so.
As to the other point, Smash Bros. 64 and Melee tally score at the end of every round. Nobody who engages with any of those games at the highest levels cares. The mere inclusion of a metric or scoring system in a game does not grant that metric or system any inherent value. Or, at the very least, does not grant it value that cannot be superseded by other systems in the same game/alternative experiences in the same game.
I also see no reason to dismiss a hypothetical Woolly World "mellow mode" review out of hand (or, despite what I said above, a Melee one that focuses on the points-based Bonus mode) - precisely because it is not the way I would ordinarily experience the game. It might clarify or express an aspect of the game that would otherwise remain unseen or unknown. Perhaps there's a meditative quality absent in normal Woolly World gameplay that is only revealed through a "mellow mode" playthrough. The review might have something interesting or novel to say about the game, or about games in general that isn't found anywhere else... of course, it might also be worthless, or it might be made in bad faith. But this would remain unknown if it were to be left wholly unconsidered or deemed irrelevant to games discourse (including comparisons between games).
What I'm getting at is that you can have both the "mellow mode" review and Matthewmatosis-style HARD PENETRATION. You can have a meaningful video about a game that doesn't touch on gameplay whatsoever (such as a video about the old 3D modeling process used for Donkey Kong Country) just as you can have a purely analytical mechanical breakdown that completely abstracts the systems from their aesthetic/narrative context. You can have an aficionado deconstruct every technique and detail involved in the production of the music (as you do); you can have a layman blind-reacting to the soundtrack and giving his two cents. These things can coexist. They must coexist, since none of these, in isolation, (yes, even near-perfect Matthewmatosis videos) can fully account for the sheer breadth and depth of technical and artistic WORK put into a big release like Sonic 3, nor the human responses to said work. All different kinds of perspectives and playstyles are, in my opinion, things that contribute to a more perfect understanding of a game. There is no need for one view to exclude any other by default. You can even learn something about games from someone who's failed to complete one. What did they like in the first place? What made them stop?
Now, should their opinion be the final word? No, but nobody's should, and nobody's is. And does this mean that an expert opinion is exactly equal to one held by an amateur, or worse, a troll? No, but if an argument sucks, it sucks, even if a genius is making it. That's what discourse is all about. People and arguments and contexts all interacting with each other. It's like, dialectical, man.
@@AlexYardAdventure I think there's a difference between, the developers intended for you to use the scoring system as a means to measure how good you are at the game and encouragement to get better vs. if you use the ring system or shields at all, you're playing on easy mode. For the record, I enjoyed the video and will be taking a lot of your advice in future playthroughs. I just think you overstated your case a little bit.
@@mrm20x6 yeah hes definitely defending this point too much lol i love the dudes content but damn, at what point do you just go "yeah i articulated myself poorly, sorry guys"? i feel like that point has passed by now lmao
@@callthecops3099 this is a damn good comment and put what i was thinking during the whole video into words my god
18:43 you are making a very stupid assumption there. "This is more interesting to me and therefore the intended method of play" you have the option to make it easier and you're actively choosing to ignore it. That's like saying that a nuzlocke is the intended way to play pokemon because revives must only be for babies. No it's an intended mechanic for anyone to use.
Why cant i be taken seriously in an opinion about a sonic game if i dont like to play for points?
Thats kinda dumb, in my opinion, i have been playing sonic 3 for years, and even tho i dont go actively for points, i still like to see the count go up, so where does that leave me? Am i playing easy mode, normal mode, hard mode?
Why is this so confusing
All this talk of how this was the intended designed system to build up stakes, create a fulfilling flow and measure your improvement, then you go and add in "btw you arent allowed to use shields or special stages, they're too op"
If this was a designed system, then the game would have a way of reflecting that,, like it does with using rings to cheese bosses that you equate to easy mode. Just say it for what it is, a self imposed challenge to add a new dynamic to the game. That is fine and doesnt take away from the depth it adds or fun you had doing it
_Btw, what of Knuckles? Delegated as hard mode of the game, yet he cant make use of these "intentional design" tricks in most instances. Just thrown in to mislead players huh 🙄_
When I first played NiGHTS on the Sega Saturn, I was a little miffed that the final level was locked behind getting a certain rank on each level.
But I replayed the levels anyways, and a lot of my love for that game was because I did. Optimizing your performance for each level is how the game was designed to be played.
SEGA was the king of the arcade, so it makes sense that's the playstyle they designed around that score-attack playstyle.
I literally boot this game up once a year and play it until I have all the super emeralds on each character. And I always have a blast so caring about the scoring system is the least of my concerns
im sorry, but your way thinking is highly contradictory and inconsistent. If you play thinking of points, worried about time abd how much rings you´ll have by the end of the zone, you will explore 5% of the game. In fact, playing with Sonic, without tails flying abilities, without playing super sonic and knucles diferent zones, you will in fact explore no more than 25%. the game has many routes to explore, so many things hidden, so many cools to do with it if you take time to explore. saying people only experienced 25% oof the game cause they didnt play the way you think they should sounds presumptious. i agree that the rings being too easy to recolect makes the game too easy sometimes, but there are always to make the make the game more chalenging
Also really not a fan of the shots at people who don't play like this saying their opinions dont matter.
Anybody can have an opinion on a game or a series based on the experience they had. Especially here where you have to go out of your way to discover, track and learn this (often with modern mods).
Elitism and gatekeeping really go hand in hand smh
10 min video spread out to 40, impressive
considering how thoughtful you were in making this video, i figure you'd give the modern games more than an eyeroll. yes, you have instant speed available to you, but in unleashed and generations, it's about maintaining that speed by keeping your boost meter up, avoiding obstacles, and replaying levels to find the fastest routes (and creating your own little shortcuts). sound familiar? even your score attack mentality could be applied perfectly well, especially in unleashed, where an s rank is pretty dang challenging and requires a balance of time and score
i am definitely missing the whole point of this video, though. it's fascinating and eye-opening, possibly the most optimistic take of a game i've ever seen, and the mindset explained here is one i hope to apply to my next playthroughs. and sonic 3k likely does have more depth than these boost games. but i just can't see how you say someone is unqualified to compare sonic games when they haven't played this "normal mode" of sonic 3, while also stating that future games are mindless
also yeeaaaaa dark knight rises!!!!!!
I'd agree that this video definitely applies to unleashed without a doubt,
and the super difficult ranking was also recreated in the unleashed mod for generations,
so it's definitely and intended staple that people notice and appreciate, as apposed to vanilla generations being an S rank buffet
for the other 3d titles, there's definitely room for having the same sort of conversation, but for unleashed in particular it's as clear cut as it gets
I don't know, Sonic Adventure still had the momentum based physics but the other 3D games are more like Mario where the only mechanic Sonic has is speed and the rest is provided by the levels, so they are very different beasts
I think you should play on 4:3 because that's what the developer INTENDED lol
He's Playing Sonic 3 Air Too, And He's Complaining About People Not Playing It How It Was Intended Lmao
I'm all for authenticity, I go out of my way to play, watch, read, or listen to everything I experience in the original intended way. ALMOST everything- I have to admit, there are definitely objectively better ways to experience a lot of stuff. It's actually more enjoyable to start with the original version and then once you've experienced it that way, then check out improved alternate versions. And you can still stick with that idea of authenticity- for example, if widescreen TVs were a thing in 1994, Sonic 3K would absolutely have utilized it.
Objective, faithful improvements that keep the original feel and idea = yes.
Playing old console games on your phone using big tiddy mods = no
widescreen overall is better but i prefer 4:3 because some moments like the end of the level screen shows parts u weren't supposed to see before the cutscene appears like that staircase at the end of carnival night act 2 in the sonic route
"Just ignore the true ending bro, ita not like you need a lot of rings for it or something"
Hold down a spindash in the alarms in Launch Base Zone. Wait for bird robots to keep flying into you. Eventually get 10,000 points every few seconds. Max out score. Win.
Don't finish watching the video. Leave useless comment indicating as much. Lose.
@@AlexYardAdventure yeah I didn’t watch all 48 minutes of “Why you’re playing Sonic wrong”, you’re right 😂 but it ain’t my fault you don’t like my big brained gamer strats! More seriously though if I feel like challenging myself I’d rather speedrun and use that as an objective measure of my skill, it’s far less arbitrary (and 80s) than aiming for a high score.
I watched the video, and here's the thing
*nobody cares , just let people play the way they want to*
no where does he say you NEED to play it this way. why are you so insecure?
There is nothing “ insecure” about being annoyed about the air of passive aggressiveness spread all throughout this video.
You can't even get the true ending this way lmao
TLDR: Do challenge runs if you get bored of a game.
This is not the TL DR at all. He is saying that playing the game this way is the default gamemode, and playing it without caring about score is actually a form of "godmode" or easy mode that makes the game trivially easy in exchange for not being stressful.
@@tuckvison Actually the real TLDR is that this is a stupidly pedantic video focusing on trivial minutiae with a deceptive clickbait title attached to draw out views. The argument that this game is "intended" to be played with entirely arbitary self-imposed restructions is pretty fucking ridiclous in of itself, but the fact that this dude is unabashedly peddling this elitist borderline gatekeeping notion that you're not playing the game 'correctly' if you don't play it this way is downright heinous.
@@pootisbear You sound a bit mad. Have you tried actually being good at the game instead of getting mad at people who are? It's a lot more fun.
@@tuckvisonCool non-response to my argument, love to see it. And yeah dude you're right, I'm mad. As a matter of fact I'm fuming. I am just SO unbelievably pissed off that I lack the pure skill required to complete the cerebrally challenging, intellectual enigma of a game that is Sonic The Hedgehog 3. There is actually hot steam bellowing out from my ears right now due to the unbridled fury I feel from this.
Anyway, good job on missing out on the point I was trying to get across. So lemme put it simply, the uploader of this video is literally telling people that your thoughts and opinions on Sonic games are invalid if you haven't played them in a hyper-specific, "correct" way. That is elitism and gatekeeping, which is scummy behaviour to bring to a community. People who gatekeep are jerks and anyone who supports this kind of mentality are also jerks, I don't really think you can say otherwise.
@@pootisbear Ok. Imo you should get this mad about how much money you make or how skilled you are at your hobbies and then you won't spend so much time writing youtube comments about things that don't matter and more time refining your skills so that you can do something noteworthy with your time and actually leave something interesting behind after you've finished living.
A bit rich to declare "not caring about score" is the developers' idea of Easy Mode when Sonic Jam involved the same developers literally making a specific Easy Mode that was considerably easier, set alongside a balance-adjusted Normal Mode (and an untouched Original Mode).
"collecting rings makes you unqualified to compare the gameplay of different games"
Bro the fucking audacity, I swear to god.
Also 8:30 you don't have to hit that spring to reach the next platform. It's only a trap.
He never said that. LOL
@@TheBrazilRules He says it at around 5:40
@@bluess1508 misquoted lol
Legitimately one of the worst takes I've ever heard. He thinks using the core gameplay mechanic is playing the game on easy mode when what he's actually doing is a self-imposed challenge on himself. He just comes off as an elitist loser
Dude has nothing but awful, bottom of the barrel takes.
There are numerous different ways to play many different games. People have been setting special "conditions" they must obey through playing a game for a long time, the most famous being Pokemon.
Now that I think about it this really does make me rethink the design philosophy of the genesis games, using this mindset Casino Night in Sonic 2 has a lot more engagement considering the whole level is a bunch of bumpers and springs and also taking that gamble to get a jackpot gives you a sense of RNG and luck that makes that zone really exciting way more than just trudging through
See, I largely enjoy this video's very comprehensive perspective on ways to enjoy Sonic 3 (and to a lesser extent, other classic Sonic games). I think you largely explain your points very well, and as someone who has played the game on your proclaimed "mellow mode" *and* a no hit/maximum score playstyle, it was very nice to see someone make a video about how engaging that playstyle can be. My problem lies around the 5:40 mark. Up until this point, your way of describing Sonic 3's more popular playstyle as an "easy mode" rubbed me the wrong way, but you were ultimately very clear that you thought it was a valid way of playing the game. I was willing to let the "easy mode" and "mellow mode" comments slide because your overall point seemed to be in good faith, that being that most people miss out on a lot of interesting design challenges on the grounds of points being, well, pointless. The problem is that you shift towards saying people's opinions on this game are automatically invalid alarmingly quickly.
To directly quote you, "So if you insist on only playing mellow mode, that is absolutely fine and okay, so long as everyone's on the same page about the implications of a refusal to play for points. First, it becomes impossible to take you seriously when you claim that 'This Sonic game is better is better than that Sonic game.' You can't review a game without playing it, so coasting through on easy mode renders you unqualified to make an informed comparison of quality between games." This is, to put it bluntly, a very appalling take. You go on about how people can enjoy games in their own way and even state yourself that most people play the game on, for lack of a better term, "mellow mode." And yet you claim that this playstyle automatically makes their potential criticism or overall opinion on the game invalid. This fundamentally doesn't make much sense because by directly acknowledging that most people play on "mellow mode", you're acknowledging that this is the more obvious baseline for gameplay in Sonic 3.
This would be more justified if Sonic 3 weren't looked at as fondly as it is. In an alternate universe where people were unappreciative of Sonic 3's great design, this being framed as more of a "Hey, people don't like this game but I think they miss out on a lot of its value by missing all of this" would make this take of yours ever so slightly more justified (as long as there was some discussion on why most people don't gravitate to a generally more enjoyable playstyle, but that's all hypothetical and I digress.) The thing is though, Sonic 3 is a beloved game. Meaning that, while your playstyle may be enjoyable to you, I see no reason to claim that other peoples' playstyles that you don't enjoy playing are invalid. You may point to the fact that you said most people should enjoy the game in the playstyle they find best, but that comes off as condescending when right before and after you make such a gigantic claim as their whole opinion on this game is invalid *because* of that playstyle. You even go on to say that people who want more classic Sonic content "waive the grounds to complain" about a lack of new content. I see no reason to make such claims when you directly acknowledge that these are simply *alternative* playstyles. It comes across in a way where it seems you're stating your opinion as law, which I'm sure wasn't entirely your intent, but I fail to see any other way to interpret these statements. Not only are these statements somewhat pretentious, but they're also unimportant because its clear that most players of Sonic 3 enjoy it anyway. These things in tandem make it so I don't see why you have any reason to say these things other than wanting to state your opinion as fact.
Of course, this is all my interpretation and there's a very considerable possibility that you didn't mean to come off this way. And that's okay! I just really think this entire video would be leagues better if you just reframed it, because the way you set it up, I had these statements in mind while watching the whole video which left a bad taste in my mouth during segments that I otherwise wholeheartedly agreed with. I did indeed watch the whole video in hopes that there would be some reconciliation with this sentiment, but there was no elaboration beyond the superficial "people can enjoy what they want!" statements that I've already said only assist in making this take more condescending. It feels like you're saying "you can enjoy the game by playing it the wrong way if you want" instead of anything meaningful. This segment could easily be cut or restated in a way more akin to "So before you make a snap judgement about this game, I greatly recommend that you give this alternative but equally important playstyle a shot. It may not be for you, but if you find yourself not enjoying certain segments of the game, this may assist you in seeing things in a new and enjoyable way as well as freshening up sections you liked." That way, it comes off a lot more accepting and helpful than how it was originally stated. I would also recommend cutting a lot of the "mellow mode" and "easy mode" terminology because like I said, it wasn't too overwhelming when it wasn't contributing to the very flawed larger point you made, but it still makes your larger analysis feel a little disrespectful.
Overall, really solid video dude. Your analysis skills are fantastic and I gotta say, I really enjoy your narration voice. It was very nice to see someone take a deep dive into the maximizing score playstyle of this game, since its a playstyle I greatly enjoy replaying the game with. I thought your overall analysis of the game's level design was top notch as well, you provided some great examples, especially in Marble Garden. I look forward to seeing any more analysis you may have of classic Sonic games. You should keep it up! I would just keep in mind that little chunks of your video like this can really coat the whole thing in a negative light if they feel like they're directly disrespecting alternate opinions.
The bolder claims in this video that you outline, specifically involve discussions of “this game is better than that game” etc. If someone only wants to play on Mellow mode, that's totally fine, and it's not that they're not allowed to criticize the game, or give their opinions on it in a public setting, lol. Just specifically that the scope of their comment is limited only to the Mellow Mode casual approach whereas this video explores the full breadth of the game itself
This aspect comes in to play with a game like Sonic CD: many of the people who think it's a garbage game do not even travel to the past or explore for the robot generators. What they fail to realize is that ignoring those crucial elements means they're playing an incomplete shell of the game that, naturally, it's gonna result in an imbalanced equation. At most it would be reasonable for them to say that playing on “just run through” mode is mediocre. That’s totally valid, and perhaps the devs did fail at including that casual option. However these same people then proceed to condemn the entire game as a mediocre failure. That’s laughable.
Then there’s the people who say Sonic Origins is perfectly fine, and that anyone who isn’t satisfied with it is just too cynical and picky. The Origins portion of this video should shed light on that. The folks who think Origins is great and everyone should agree, are probably playing on some version of mellow mode whereby they would not even notice the 1000s of problems Origins has.
Also, I never said that other people’s casual playstyles are invalid, just that staying *only* in that casual mode means you are overlooking a great deal of what the game actually is, and it means you’re unprepared to make a compelling case about which game is stronger or which game most effectively manifests what Sonic’s all about.
Finally, the percentage of gamers who play on Mellow Mode is irrelevant. That either stems either from their complacency, but perhaps the bigger factor, is that the Genesis sonic games do next to nothing to give an extrinsic reward for getting a good score (such as a different ending, hyper form, etc.) What is outlined in this video as “regular mode” is not some arbitrary criteria I’ve made up. It is just recognizing that thinking mindfully about time, points and badniks in the most basic sense, and maximizing economy along the way, to result in a much greater sense of participation.
“You waive the grounds to complain that Sonic 3 never got any kind of sequel outside of Mania.”
This line confuses me. I love the idea of getting more out of a game and really understanding it’s design by becoming great at it, but that just isn’t for everyone. I love practicing Celeste levels to do them deathless, but I know for others that wouldn’t be fun. I think they have every right to ask for more of the games they like, because ultimately, those games are designed for them too.
perfectly summarized my problems with this video. i just really can't bring myself to enjoy it, as interesting as the points about this alternate way of playing are, it does not come off as friendly or inviting. not to mention, the lack of how the "25%" estimate was even reached to begin with, or that the "game designers INTENDED the game to be played for points, see they even have pages in the manual for you to write down your score (pages that are Completely Absent in the Japanese manual)" is literally an assumption at best. you can just happen to be "good" at the game and find all alternate parts and bits of content you might've missed even still without caring about points or taking hits.
Sonic fans always with making everything into a fight by going for the my way or the highway your not a real fan take everytime.
SA1 is more intended to be played in this way than Sonic 3. In that game, replaying levels changes them fundamentally and unlocks tangible rewards.
In Sonic 3, there are a few situations where a better time is rewarded but in no way is playing for Score a core part of the game. In fact, that very thing is a result of the same game design philosophy as the shields being that if the player performs better now, they have an easier or more lenient game later. Though, this idea seems to be completely overlooked in this video anyway
Aren't there several stages that straight up skip the score count-up sequence, making rings and time irrelevant? Off the top of my head I remember this being the case in Death Egg Act 2 and Hidden Temple in S3&K, and in the other games there's Scrap Brain act 3 and Sky Chase. Doesn't this omission kind of point to the developers considering score more of an afterthought than anything?
This guy takes his Sonic runs very very seriously.
I didn’t see the 75% of the game we all missed.
Looked like the same game.
The thing is that Score is a very bad incentive players to engage with the game, that got obsolete long after 80s arcade games.
Sonic3 and Sonic1 were my favorite game for a long time and I played them A LOT when I was a child, but was not very good on my first time on any level, or getting emeralds on bonus stages. Besides I had a pirate copy of 3, which means that it was not possible to save my game, so I had to start the game from scratch most of the time, and became very impatient with early lvls.
Just for wanting to skip lvls faster I found a lot of these lvl design marvels, and came to find and really enjoy the optimal flow. I've forgotten how good it felt until I watched this video.
When I recently replayed both on Origins I didn't enjoy it very much, and now it's clear for me it's because you don't usually flow on the lvls. And it's not only because of pyhisics. It has a lot to do with how we play games today, where replaying whole lvls is not acceptable.
For a game like this to work again, designers would have to come up with new incentives beside scores or difficulty.
The only reward that comes from the point system is you get a life each time you get 50,000 points.
I like how the way I've been playing classic Sonic games for years is now being caught on and advertised by the internet.
17:05 there is no reason to do that. It didn't even get you an extra hit. You just did the video game equivalent of cutting across traffic for extra style.
Wtf is that take that you didn't played sonic 3 if you didn't played in that specific type of play? Just becaude you enjoyed more playing like that doesen't mean thats the right way. If the game doesen't say that picking all the rings dropped is an "easy mode", it simply is not a easy mode.
Your voice is like a wise old New York uncle showing his nephews the way the world works I love it
Hell naw voice sounds like the narrations of those emotionless books on tape we had in school.smh script read by A I sounding ass
He has to the uncle, not the dad, because after even just hearing about this video no woman will touch him.
Score systems are largely a carry over from the transition period that this game was developed from during the 90's as we were starting to see games start to match/surpass their counterparts in the arcades. It's really, really fucking stupid to justify that a blurb from a translated manual is indicative of the full intention on the designers' part.
I wouldn't really give a shit since people can play games however they want and if you want to make a video discussing strategies and techniques for playing a game a different way, then that's just peachy. But trying to claim that without playing that way that we're missing out on some fundamental part of the """canon""" experience that omits us from having a nuanced view on the game, without following that up as being an ironic joke, is idiotic. There's already a challenge mode designed into the classic sonic games: emerald hunting. After that, the majority of people focus on the timer and trying to beat stages faster. You know what points means to most people in these games? An extra continue. That's it.
The issue with points/scores in a majority of console games is that they are, in the larger implementation of the game systems, pretty arbitrary and, taken to their logical conclusion, lend to a really repetitive and imbalanced experience. I figure you'll want to argue that it's where the endurance part comes in, where I'll farm dozens of lives throughout the game, maybe even seek out a method for infinitely gaining lives, and then abuse that to replay segments of a level so I can max out a score by farming badniks and monitors or whatever. But usually people like Sonic games because they're fairly well-paced in their mix of platforming and speed, and how often it varies level aesthetics and moving you along. What I described before doesn't line up with what the average person, even hardcore ones, would find rewarding, save for the most masochistic and obsessive.
**Hey, here's a tip you missed that completely invalidates going fast for a score run: finishing a level at exactly **9:59** gives you 100k. That's 2 times then the penultimate highest time bonus of 50k for under 30 seconds. Have fun waiting for 10 minutes every level!**
If you have to add in all these arbitrary "oh but don't do that" then it's not really a score run, and it's likely not intended by these japanese guys who made a game 30 years ago. It's not a speedrun, or a ring collecting run, or whatever. It's just"This is how I play the game, and if you don't play like this you're missing out. You need to put in this much effort, but not too much to where you're doing a speed run and worrying about missing frames cause that's not how I would play, it stresses me out too much, I only wanna shave a few seconds each time I play. These shields are bad cause sometimes maybe you might skip a jump if you time them right cause that's not the timing I care about, and even if you go faster and thus it would introduce other timing challenges to consider, well that doesn't matter cause I just called you a baby."
For anyone else reading this comment, here's the only real valid takeaway from this vid: if you like a game and want to keep playing, come up with silly challenges and rules for yourself. IF you enjoy it more that way keep doing it; if you don't, maybe move onto another game.
i always come back to this video, a week after i watched this i found out about fighting games.
this was about a year ago. im still learning new things everytime i play them- but i never give up or get comfortable where im at. and i think its partly thanks to this video
its weird to think that i got into a whole different game genre unrelated to sonic partly because of the complacent type part of the video but its true lmao
"if you don't play the way I think you should, then you aren't allowed to critique it."
Yeah, games are made to be fun. If someone finds playing the game normally fun, that's how they should play. It's entirely valid to critique and compare a game in the way that you prefer it.
I think these are awesome facets of Sonic 3 that anyone who loves the game should interact with, but to say that someone "waive[s] the grounds to complain" about something if they don't engage with the scoring mechanic is kind of silly. I don't think many people would say that someone's opinion on an RPG that they completed multiple times with multiple - but not all - character classes would be "impossible to take seriously". These claims undermine the strong points you make on the whole, and it saddens me that you see the opinion of someone who actively doesn't engage with Sonic 3s scoring system as impossible to take seriously. I do have several other issues with your arguments, but all-in-all I'm very happy you've shared your experience and understanding of this game! I'm absolutely playing the game this way on my next playthrough.
I would change your wording of "if they don't engage with the scoring mechanic" to "if they don't engage with the game (via the scoring system)." The scoring system is just a means to and end to ensure that you're actually noticing and interacting with all the amazing attention to detail the game offers, and not coasting through haphazardly where taking hits has no meaningful effect.
The RPG analogy is a false equivalency, as I don't think playing with every single character class is necessary, and depending on the game, maybe even only one character class is necessary? As long as you are engaging with the full extent of the game and not using overpowered techniques to steamroll the true challenge the game offers.
Another example is Sonic Adventure 2, I don't think a person needs to get every single emblem and A-rank in order to understand the true breadth of the game. But, they would need to at least get a representative sense of what kinds of things are involved in going for A Ranks.
I never got the hate for Marble Garden Zone - as a kid, that was one of my favorite levels. It was HUGE with so many paths and secrets!
Also, this was a really cool video, not at all what I was expecting. Wow.
All I got was we've all actually experienced 100% of the game, but we didn't play in a specific way. This is so unbelievably preachy for an opinion.
I see Sonic in...a new light. Thank you kind sir for opening this new realm for me. I've only ever played Sonic games in mellow mode. Oh the naivety.
I can't even consistently beat Mellow Mode. Dyspraxia is the ultimate gamer superpower, it means everything is a high stakes challenge.
Same, I've never been so good at a game that the "easy way" becomes boring.
In fact I struggle to beat almost any video game to the point that just barely winning is a challenge that's too hard most of the time, and while I have beaten sonic 3 before, there are other games that I may never win.
Also in Sonic mania, even with the infinite lives mode I died a ton of times on scrap brain act 3 in sonic 1, to the point that I have no idea how I ever got past that zone before
This entire video is ironic right?
This is a neat video but I don't feel like watching 3/4ths of an hour explaining why letter grades in the newer sanics exist.
Only 5 minutes in but you need to collect rings to get the emeralds to get the true ending of the game, If all that is easy mode then the game doesn't have a hard mode
Ikr
You're mistaken to conclude that this video tells you "don't collect rings."
Now thinking about it, it’s kind of insane how there’s probably more paths in these games that I haven’t discovered, it was only recently where I discovered there was a bottom path with a shield and a ring monitor at the beginning of Collision Chaos 1.
So it’s these kinds of things that make me appreciate the level design philosophy a lot more
This feels weirdly condescending. In the same way I don't need to be an amazing chef to say pizza is better than burgers, I shouldn't need to complete a game "correctly" to say it's better than another one.
A pal of mine applied to IGN by sending a sample review of Yoshi's Wooly World, and he played only on mellow mode. He didn't hear back from IGN.
@@AlexYardAdventure that is still by far the worst comparison in the entire video. through this logic anyone who played a Sonic game in what you view as the Sonic equivalent of "mellow mode" would get a review rejected by IGN because... they collected rings and lost them? What now, collecting a mushroom in a Mario game is also easy mode? I really think you should just stick with the music theory stuff.
@@AlexYardAdventure Weird, that sort of review seems pretty par for the course from IGN.
@@AlexYardAdventure see, that's because he didn't unlock all costumes with the amiibo. So he actually didn't complete the game
The spike badnik from marble garden is spottable because it has darker shades compared to the normal spike which is lighter.
Sonic fans when people play the go fast game to go fast
I feel the score meter is one of those things that are always overlooked in video games, like you just gave me a new perspective on any game with a score meter
Yup. And this has led to a very fun dynamic during livestreams where I can make a wager target score based on metrics such as these.
And this is why the ranking system is such a great addition to Sonic.
So basically... if you're not trying to speed run the game, you're playing on easy mode lol
Trust me, I get it. Sonic was built for speed and that's the whole premise of the game. But just because people don't wanna find the fastest way to beat every level does not mean, they can't critique the game lol Last time I checked, the main goal is to beat the game as fast as possible WITH ALL THE EMERALDS. Speed running Sonic doesn't equate for that. You can't do both efficiently!
Feel free to challenge others to get better scores but don't belittle people because they don't want to play the way you think is best lol
This guy is like, if you play it enough you'll become a jedi and then its fun lol. No dude, those grasshoppers have no tell whatsoever. Sonic IS in fact full of first-time bullshit. I love it, but I'm sorry it's not the best designed series out there.
edit: Those insta-shield tricks are eye-opening though, very cool.
Saying that someone's opinion of the game isn't valid because they played it on mellow mode is like saying that your opinion of Game X isn't valid because you didn't 100% the game, or that you can't say that you like X game because you don't play it competitively. I get it that for you this is a huge aspect of Sonic 3 that a lot of people don't take into account, and that perhaps seeing people review the game without taking it into account makes you confused, after all, how could someone assess a game's content objectively if they haven't even seen all of it? The thing is, as opposed to how most people see it, a review isn't an objective assesment of a game, it's an opinion, the author's opinion, which is just as valid as the opinion of the guy who played Sonic 3 once, got into Hydrocity and quit because he hates water levels, one of those opinions might be a negative one, but it's just as valid, because you can't be wrong about your opinion on something, how you feel about it.
I find this video to be pretty interesting tbh, as someone who is really into playing Sonic games for S ranks, and really love the classic games in their own right, I've always wanted to bring that magic into the Classic games, but I've always kept waiting for mods that add ranks to the respective games, like the SA2 ranks mod for Sonic mania, which I find to be pretty fun in tandem with playing Sonic Mania for Score, but this video showed me that that was always present in the game, and seems to be a pretty fun way to play the game on it's own right.
I just wanted to say, this is a pretty good video, It's very interesting to watch and I'm pretty sure that once I give playing sonic games for score enough of an opportunity I'll like playing that way over the way I do now, but I also find the things I mentioned in the first comment about the video pretty questionable, and I think that this video could of been recieved a lot better if it didn't have those things in it, because I really doubt that anyone in the comments section here is against playing for score, they're just against the things that you said here 5:27
I'm just sitting here, baffled that the insta shield is actually supposed to work as an actual shield. I tried time and time again over the years, and came to accept that it didn't work that way and was just supposed to extend your attack range. How the heck I never managed to land it right, not even once???
The, 'you aren't really playing if you don't do it like me' mentality. Can't get enough of that now can we?
Only replayed twice a year? Do you not know how gaming worked in the 90s? You got 2 games a year. One on Christmas, one on your birthday. that was it. All games were replayed hundreds of times, or you didn't play games.
I find it... Strange that he replays a high quality only twice a year... Particularly a short one.
I played painkiller four times this year and mind you I have a rather big library of games.
@@Leonard_Wolf_2056 There are people who just can't replay games or rewatch animation a lot.
He probably talks about people who try to pick this game up in modern era.
I have only experienced 0% of this game
Good video, but you come across as a little too confident that the intended and pure way to play the game is by ignoring several aspects of the deliberate game design, including requirements for 100% completion.
It's not that people should play every session as outlined in this video. It's just that if you *never* play this way, you will be missing out on a great deal of genius that the game has to offer, in favor of a samey overpowered game flow.
You may not have finished the video but it does touch upon the value/depth shields offer, for example.
@@AlexYardAdventure why do you keep repeating that somehow, anyone that criticize something has not finished the video? Not a lot of space for criticism is there?
Criticism is fine -
That's just me telling the commenter that the point they're trying to raise is already addressed by the video, and I'm not going to spend my time typing it all out again.
@@AlexYardAdventure What if the point is not actually addressed like you think it is?
From a filthy casual, with love.
I like how you’re praising my favourite game of all time. I could never explain why I like so much. I always praised it for the replay ability. Not just for the three playable characters but also the many branching paths. Great video and good points
26:35 "You know it might sound tedious to have to start memorizing level layouts in order to know that you should hit the brakes for a spike ball that's comin' up. but this is not the case, what you actually have to do requires no deliberate effort. You just learn by osmosis by many playthroughs."
Playing music is the same thing. There's the notes, the order they're played, how long they're played and how loud or soft they're played. When you first start learning a piece of music there's the designers intent literally written out for you, but then as you become more accustomed to the piece and have memorized it after several playthroughs, you can start delaying notes, playing them louder or softer, and even sometimes changing the order of them creating something that is a symbiosis between designer intent and player creation.
I love Sonic 3, and I am definitely looking forward to playing it in a new way, but I hard disagree with a couple points. First of all, you can’t gatekeep people from criticizing a game because they didn’t get the “full” experience. It is the game designers job to encourage a playstyle, not the player. Score by itself is a poor way of doing this, especially with how much of the design actively encourages the more common playstyle.
Sonic adventure 2 solved this beautifully with a rank system, and many players like myself have so much fun going for high ranks in games that I sometimes go out of my way to optimise beyond the highest rank. With the philosophy of old school Sonic games being beatable in one sitting, they could give you an overall game ranking at the end.
Also, while I appreciate certain obstacles you mentioned like the spinning spike ball in MG Zone being a punishment for reckless speed, there is no excuse for surprise traps like the one seen at 28:05. It might be a cool challenge if you know about it, but that doesn’t mean it isn’t bad design. You have already shown plenty of examples of how punishing the player can be done right.
Reminds me of when I achievement hunted in SA2. I thought getting all the A ranks in every stage was going to be a huge chore (and it sometimes was), but it also made me approach the game differently and see it in a completely different light when I was done. Really well made video. Glad it popped up in my recommended.
"Woah! That's sure interesting, but i don't care!"
I love this video. I’ve never been a super avid sonic player and I never quite understood the genius of these game’s design. Only when I started trying to get fast times in Sonic Mania did I really begin to see where the fun was. Testing out different routes, practicing my ability to quickly platform while maintaining speed, not getting hit by enemies. It gave me a glimpse of the fun and I feel that your video truly captures just how fun momentum-based Sonic truly is and I love it.
Thank you
I think one of the biggest things I disagree with you on is saying that playing the game normally is "easy" mode. There are plenty of obstacles that instantly kill you regardless of whether or not you have rings. Also I can't see how you could look at zones like Labyrinth and Metropolis and say that the game is "easy". Though this is coming from the perspective of someone who sucks at these games.
Also out of curiosity, I decided to check a score run of the game. It looks fun, though a bit repetitive since you have to play the same special stage over and over, and there's a fair bit of RNG involved when it comes to getting the best bonus stage for each checkpoint. However, I think one interesting aspect of doing a score/ring attack in is shield economy. S3&K is probably one of the easiest games to get shields, especially when you consider bonus stages. Despite this, shields are still more scarce compared to rings, which makes losing one nerve wracking. It also makes the bubble shield a much more viable option than in normal gameplay because you don't lose it in the water.
I really like a lot of things brought up in this video and it did make me appreciate S3&K a lot more, but I do think that you may have fallen into attributing some aspects to developer intent when I feel it's more likely it was emergent possibilities that were coincidentally brought about by the momentum based gameplay. Not to say that it's not really rad that such things emerged through the systems of the game, just that I think you might need to be careful not to fall into the trap of thinking that every bit of enjoyment you get out of replaying the game and carefully studying it was completely, deliberately intended to be a "secret challenge" for the ultra skilled. I also don't know if I agree with calling beating classic Sonic games "normally" to be equivalent to playing on easy mode, or that people who have only played the game casually don't have valid opinions on the game. I'd say 99% of people who play the game won't ever play on the level you do, won't commit themselves to constant improvement, and their experience is important to consider as well
I’m about 5 months late, but I just wanted to say that I agree with your comment and it’s well “written”. I feel some things Alex discussed in the video were self imposed challenges (not collecting the emeralds, not equipping elemental shields, etc.) and he mentioned near the beginning that an individual ought to engage with the/a game in a way where they will get the most enjoyment out of it, so it’s not as if he’s wrong for them I feel nor am I saying that enjoyment couldn’t be found in playing the game as he described. Where I took issue is when he states that people who don’t choose to engage with the game on the level he and some others do, are not qualified to give an assessment of what makes them good like you said. Also like you mentioned a majority of the people who will play these games will not engage with them on this level and what they think about the game is valuable as well not just because it’s their opinion and theirs is valid as well but also I’m sure they make up a majority of the sales for the games. As a company whose focus is making money I believe it’s important to consider what the 99% think as well. Ideally I think a game should be fun for a casual romp, and for those who do want to push themselves there is content in the game for them to get their teeth into. Anyways I don’t mean to regurgitate stuff you already mentioned 😂, and once again I thought the comment was good 👍🏿.
You say how the canon way of playing Sonic 3 is to try getting as much points as possible, but the amount of rings you have at the end of a stage affect your score + some of the rings are placed so that they are basically impossible not to pick up. These two things go against your "coins are the mellow mode of Sonic 3" concept, making it look like you want to have your cake and eat it too.
He wasn't saying not to pick up rings, the challenge he's describing is keeping all of your rings until the end
This video is weird because it specifically calls out speedrunning for being not fun for optimizing for time perfection, but explains in detail that you should be optimizing for point perfection. Which is the same thing, just with a different goal for the run. Speedrunners will do the exact same trial and error experimenting described here while learning to optimize. The whole complacency thing at the end was also weird. Why decry people complacent with "mellow mode" in the face of point optimization when you also go out of your way to say that speedrunning is a step too far because why go for time perfection? I think once you, correctly, pointed out that optimizing in any way provides a deeper game experience, trying to put actually value statements on a player's based on optimization is unnecessary. Once a player has found the fun for them, that's all the optimizing they need to do.
The video doesn't dismiss speedrunning - I specifically say it's not for me personally, and that others thrive in that context.
Great vid Alex! It was interesting seeing you explain this concept of playing Sonic 3 from your streams into a full video essay. I might have to try this out myself.
interesting take, but it falls short since there is no reward for high scores other than lives which is something extremely easy to find and gather, the core gameplay of a game consists of introducing mechanics and those mechanics when used properly shall reward you directly with a reward that complements and enhances the experience, spending more time playing the game is not something everybody can afford especially nowadays, if the game rewarded you with something more interesting than lives than I would say you're right, however that is simply not the case
The difference between you and I is that you solider through difficult challenges in hopes of getting something awesome in the end. I try to get a better score because it's a very fun and rewarding challenge minute by minute, session by session. I enjoy every moment instead of just being antsy for "an eventual payoff that will bring me fleeting satisfaction"
"If you don't enjoy the game in the same specifically niche way that I do then your opinion means nothing."
Yeah, OK chap.
You're literally telling people you're not a fan and you can't criticize this game if you don't play it the way I do. You don't decide what the definitive way to play a game is no matter how long the video essay. Yes it makes the game more interesting to you specifically and you noticed the way the level design effects this play-style making it more challenging. I'm sure if you're replaying the game multiple times a week for 30 years that's a much needed spin, but most people don't even have time to play games that much or that long.
The video never states that you're "not a fan" if you only play in mellow mode.
It also doesn't say you "can't" criticize a game for things like replayability. You are free to do so, but I and others will be highly suspect of your conclusions since there's volumes of deliberately designed content that you haven't experienced
i think the playing for score thing seems especially helpful in like having more fun engaging with the marble garden enemies since they all kind of have more defensive abilities (like the grasshoppers jumping over you if you roll at them or the fake spikes bouncing you off from above) which a lot of times i just run past cos i didnt really care about a badnik going unkilled but it probably does seem quite fun to try to find ways to get points from these things, that are stopping you from killing them, quickly.
47.48 minute video advocating for speed running particularly with Sonic the hedgehog.
Bold of you to assume I've ever made it past ice cap zone without cheating
💀💀💀
I never went back to this game to solve the barrel.
These days I know how, but I never bothered to boot up the game and actually play past Carnival Night 2.
That being said, this video implied that there was cut content and the sort ... instead of just non-casual playstyles.
I can't believe I'm learning about these things after 30 years. Thank you so much for this video! This sort of iteration is also a joy to me in SA2...replaying a level until you can A rank everything. So much depth.