My dad (a doctor) told me after watching the last episode that Ellie would never needed to die to get the cure. If the cordyceps chemical signals were the source, then all they would really need is a blood sample. And even if it was nessasary to do brain surgery, they could do that by only taking a micro amount of brain tissue without killing the patient. If she is really the only hope for the human race, then you gotta keep her alive and healthy if there is any more need for tests.
My head canon is that the FireFlies are way in over their heads, and don't have the manpower, expertise, knowledge, or anything, with too much bad leadership to do any proper brain surgery, and are bassically just rushing through a hail mary attempt, because they don't know what else to do.
@@KrystalNCMA true and the guy wasn't even a real doctor I read somewhere that he was doing major in biology or something and he basically lied so yeah the audience and mike and the show was right that he is a big dumbass.
Or more likely with "implied time flow" he had recovered JUST enough to fight (even if he was much weaker than normal) And his 'fight or flight' reflex was overriding his bodies signals and he was in serous 'I need morphine right now' pain once the adrenaline wore off.
Consent and lack of any sort of previous non-life threatening tests is exactly why I will defend Joel’s decision until the end of freaking time. They didn’t fully inform Ellie, didn’t allow her to make a decision, and didn’t allow her any closure with Joel. They stripped her of any human rights and that’s the worst crime in my opinion. Plus just the ridiculously massive jump to the conclusion that they HAVE to kill her just… god, it’s awful. Everything about how the Fireflies went about this boils my blood.
Him being a father is enough for me to defend him. I wouldn’t sacrifice my kid for the world. They can call me selfish, but I could care less what would happen to me. As long as I did my duties as a parent, that’s all that would matter.
@gissellest333that’s literally being selfish your choosing your love over everyone else and that’s fine everything on the planet does that cause that’s the point but it is selfish
then you didn't get the point of the story. Joel didn't care about any of that. they could have treated her with the utmost respect and given her full control over the decision. even if they did a thousand tests beforehand to determine that killing her would be the only option to save the world. Joel's decision would have been the same.
@@ashebennett7726 hopefully you're not teaching your kid how to speak English, because the term is COULDN'T care less, NOT "could care less" which is a nonsense phrase. Maybe you should give your kid up for adoption, so they can get smart parents instead.
The fact that the fireflies didn't try anything with her blood and the plasma is what baffled me too. To jump straight to the brain being the only place to go was nuts when really the infection is all over her body
They are using the 'implied time flow' thing you get in Games/shows, they had 20 years from the beginning of the outbreak to the point the show ended to research the cordyceps, it's reasonable to assume that they would have tried using dead infected persons antibodies to attempt a vaccine, but seeing as that hasn't worked until they get to Ellie, they are implying they need the brain of the Cordyceps to fully contain it, Fungus have brains, central control area's where all the signals to it's body are made, that's why killing Fungus is relatively hard, say you pull a mushroom up from the ground, if you leave even a bit of it in the ground it will rebuild itself, because the brain isn't in the top, it's protected underground to avoid being eaten by predators, they are implying that the Cordyceps in the game/show use the brain as it's protective housing because our skulls are probably the safest bit in a human body, it has a natural hardened shell and a good source of food in the brain itself, it also has control over our brains which in turn control our bodies.
@@KnightShadowsong explain the clicker stage infection where the fungi bursts its said "protective housing" wide open if the core of infection really is there
@@johncarlofernandez2698 well if you think about it, the fungus resistance to being destroyed once its out of the skull is higher, cause based on what you see on the game, a person who is still on the "runner" stage dies from one shot on the head, while the "clickers" die from two, which means that yes, once the cordyceps is big enough to destroy the skull it is also capable of protecting itself more efficiently
@@johncarlofernandez2698 I'm saying that in the early infection stage the skull would be a fair safe place, how much force dose it take to break the skull? A lot. IDK about the Clicker stage though, that's one of those game mysteries they never properly explain. but my point is the brain is the central control for our bodies, along with the spinal cord. that said, it makes reasonable sense given the implication's in the show/game that that would be where the Fungi's brain lives as well. it has a food source. it has access to our brains to control our bodies, and when it finishes with the brain it's possible that that is when it bursts out seeking more food resulting in the Clicker stage.
in the game I (and I assume most players) are given the impression that Joel was laid up with that wound in his abdomen for a couple weeks at least (because it goes from fall to middle of winter), and that's why he had recovered enough to help Ellie, even though he was clearly still struggling and healing. Joel put all his point in Vitality and Strength lmao
@@natem1579 oh absolutely! but andrenaline doesnt last forever. i always assumed they were laid up for at least a month if not longer. like mid October to December or something.
Ellie was modeled after Ellen Page. The original looked a lot like her, but she asked to changed it because she already had a deal for Beyond Two Souls. So they modified the face a little.
Just to add something that I noticed while watching, Ellie's mom also used the same knife that went through the infected's neck to cut the umbilical cord, exposing Ellie potentially.
My thinking was the infected bit her before/while giving birth to Ellie, and the small amount of cordyceps that spread through her body in that time acted as a natural vaccine. It's a bit like how the vaccine for smallpox came around: a small dosage of the virus helped develop antibodies and assisted in the creation of the vaccine. That's what made sense to me, at least. It's possible the knife could have had something to do with it as well.
@David Martins I've just looked it up, and it's confirmed that the bite Anna received while birthing Ellie is the reason she's immune. The virus was transferred to her via the umbilical cord, which then acts as a chemical messenger, as in her system already thinks she's infected, and so any further infections are nullified. This makes more sense than cutting the umbilical cord with a knife coated in cordyceps. For her to be infected via the knife, she would have had to have been physically cut with it since the umbilical cord transfers nutrients, oxygen, and other things contained in the mother's system to the fetus. That's the reason why smoking, drugs, and drinking while pregnant is so bad. Some infections can also be passed down through to the fetus as well, so naturally, the same goes for cordyceps.
When I watched Joel pull out the shard of the baseball bat, I immediately was like, "No! Joel, don't do that! You're gonna bleed out! What's Dr. Mike gonna say?!"
The game version of that scene and injury was more dramatic and over the top but somehow more believable/sensical. The game's Joel fell from an upper floor and got impaled on rebar. He and Ellie had no choice but to yank him out since there were cannibals closing in to kill them, and there was no way to both grant him freedom to move and keep the foreign object plugged. The show's Joel somehow got impaled deep with a shard of broken baseball bat through thick winter clothing. And he immediately pulled it out. The wood was only thing plugging his wound and keeping him from bleeding out. He should know better as survivor of many life and death struggles over a 20+ year span including a gunshot wound.
I just retcon it in my brain because they so easily could have made it more believable without changing the outcome. Ellie could know some basic medic stuff from military school. The injury itself could be one that causes shock in the short term but is stitchable. It could take longer for the cult to find them so the penicillin has longer to work. Joel could be conscious (and arguing about the risks Ellie is taking) and the suspense could be whether he's ambulatory enough. It's baffling that, having changed the injury, they didn't make it believable.
@@Genomsnittet An ER doctor says in his reaction that basically Joel's going to bleed out most likely from hitting a major organ or blood vessel BUT he's seen ONE instance of a deep foreign object penetration like that where the object missed everything important, and the treatment was infection control plus stitching up the outside to close the abdominal wall where most of the bleeding was, to encourage clotting.
were they planning to take her whole brain? i thought they were just going to biopsy it. seems pretty excessive to take someone's entire brain out on the theory that their brain is what makes them immune. it's like laundry, folks, do a spot treatment before you chuck the whole thing in.
and its not like they couldn't have done a biopsy, yes a brain one is dangerous but doesn't have to be fatal..i mean clearly all of this exists to manufacture a decision between killing ellie and saving the world but outside the context of the story I really don't think you would ever want to kill the only person who is immune
In the game it's suggested that she's not immune per se, so much as it is she has a non-lethal growth of cordyceps that are growing in her brain. In order to extract the fungus they would have to detach it from her brain, which would kill her, but produce the fungus. In the show it's all chemical messengers that imply all they need to do is draw some blood, so they have no need to do brain surgery. The reason they are is because they're following the game's story beats without any consideration for WHY the game chose those story beats.
Think about this, what if Ellie had offspring that were immune? Well they would never find out because they hit the nuclear option and ripped her brain out for practically zero reason other then a hair brain theory.
The bat scene bothered me a lot because in the video game he landed on a pole that was attached to the ground so he HAD to pull himself off of it but in the show he was just stabbed so he had no reason to pull it out, but as for all the happened after it about his recover time and being able to keep going your not taking in to account his 'Ellie senses'
Yes this bothered me too. And you’d think that Joel with all his combat/fighting experience would know not to pull out the piece of the bat to prevent bleeding.
@@Madison.Dances829true. But then again they needed a reason for the Winter section of the game and Joel could have just been surprised. It struck me as weird too, though.
The broken bat bothered me as well.. In the video game, Joel fell and landed on a metal rebar rod. However, I would think falling from a 2nd floor walkway and landing on his back would've been enough to kill him.
In online discourse, someone pointed out that the doctors are probably medical students from 2003, or actual doctors but maybe not in the right field and with knowledge only from 2003. Also MatPat of Game Theory proposed a very logical explanation for Ellies immunity. In the game at least, its seems they are going a different direction in the show.
@@pucamisc that’s the timeline for the series, but in the game the outbreak occurs in 2013 (the year the game was released). Joel and Ellie’s journey takes place in 2033 onwards.
In the game, part II reveals to the player that the doctor was an undergraduate biologist and all that he and the Fireflies were running on were conjectures and hunches. They didn't have a single clue on whether they could deliver on their own plan. Starting by the fact that they didn't have any laboratory equipment to actually synthesize whatever was in Ellie's body into something others could benefit from.
@@AlldaylongRock yeah, from that game theory channel, they said Ellie is likely infected with a different strain of cordyceps that is protecting her because different strains (like antifungals) actually want the host to survive so they can survive too. I think its like a win-win relationship. There's a scientific term for it. Beneficial relationship? Idk
Some fun facts. Ellie's Mom in the series is played by Ashley Johnson who is the Voice actor who played Ellie in the game. Very fitting that she gave birth to her in the series poetically. Also James (The person who assists David in the series with their cannibalistic practices) is played by Troy Baker who is Joel's actor in the game. I'm glad they decided to include the main 2 voice actors from the game in a different role in the series.
@@carlfredrick2190 Laura Bailey! She and Ashley are some of the creators of Critical Role, a hugely popular streaming D&D game whose actors all did various voices for the game as well.
@@carlfredrick2190 I figured one of the nurses would be the antagonist for season 2. I haven't seen or played the game, friend just told me the plot, so Idk about ages though.
Showing Ellie's birth and how she became immune verified a fan theory. It's true that in the game, we have no idea. Marlene is hinted to know more than she's telling us but that's par for the course. I personally think Marlene kept the information to herself because if it got out, combined with the authoritarian systems in place, it could lead to some pretty horrendous experimentation. Think wards of pregnant women being purposely infected, babies being experimented on, etc. Could it have lead to a cure? Maybe. Would it have been worth the cost? Maybe not.
Feel like that acutally weakens the series. A lot like why the mouth tendril things do and the lack of spore production. implication in the game seemed to imply that her cordycept mutated in some uncertain way. Its why she can breath in spores without being affected, cause her cordycept has moved in already. But it neithered broke down her tissues nor affected her personality.
@@taddad2641 Either answer is fine with me, tbh because it would fit the narrative. The show is NOT the game and the game devs haven't actually confirmed anything so Ellie's mom's infection is cannon for the show but not for the game. The game is still a mystery and that's fine. The idea that this handful of people know about Ellie and are as secretive as possible about her while trying to do whatever they think they need to to get her to where she needs to be still holds up. As does the very bleak ending.
They inserted Ellie’s birth yes to show why she’s immune, but also because Ashley Johnson played Ellie in the game, and they wanted to include her in the show. I love that. Apparently Ashley was chatting with the producer, Bella walked in the room, Ashley’s face lit up, and she said “that’s Ellie!!” One of the reasons why the show works so well is because there’s a real bond between everyone involved. The chemistry between the actors isn’t faked, they’re real friends, and that’s partially credit to the producers who created a family-like environment. Having the original actors included in the show is a beautiful thing - even if Troy Baker went from “I must protect Ellie at all costs” to “I must kill Ellie at all costs” 😂
@@tomascostanzo3673 the game is better in every way you should definitely play it. The game focuses more on Joel on Ellie and they have a lot more chemistry.
@@Traskie LOL stop. The game is brilliant. The television show is the best game adaptation ever made. There is beautiful chemistry between Pedro Pascal and Bella Ramsey. WTF are you even smoking?!
This confirms what I thought the first time I finished the game. The fireflies have no idea what they were doing and Joel did the right thing on saving Ellie.
That's still the wrong idea. The Fireflies SHOULD have every idea what they were doing, but the writers didn't and were just trying to shove in some last piece of drama into the story.
@ohauss No, they shouldn't. They're a dying paramilitary group that can barely hold its internal structure together well enough to actually achieve anything, there's no reason to believe they'd have the sophisticated network of scientists/medical researchers, let alone the equipment, needed to produce and disseminate a viable vaccine. Most likely this would've just been Ellie dying for nothing but hopes and dreams.
17:51 😂 my mom who is the nurse she had a similar comment about the penicillin and how Ellie gave him that shot, saying you gotta find a vain and not just stab in anywhere or into the wound. I loved her reaction though cause it was kinda funny
@HuskyMN2002 - just like that - no. But on some people you cannot see veins very well, as they may be covered under a layer of fat, so they usually try to go somewhere inside the elbow area, then the wrist area (inside part), and then they go for those small vains on top of your hand. Been there, done that (bloody painfull when they miss the vein in the inside part of the wrist and hit the bone with the needle). Usually nurses are much more experienced at this than doctors. Way more. Anyway, yeah - you cannot stab people just randomly in hope to hit some vein, to administrate some drugs/medicine. Not in every case anyway.
About their Cordyceps knowledge, 20 years dealing with (and probably dissecting) infected must've given people some knowledge about how the fungus spreads, since it controls people's minds it's not crazy to propose that it grows inside the brain. In episode 1 they even had a chart with the total infection times based on where the victims were bit, they also developed the scanners after the apocalypse so they surely had the tech to study Cordyceps in depth. About the surgery, they were probably going to split open Ellie's brain to try and get her "strand" of Cordyceps out, killing her in the process, which is a huge mistake since they only have 1 immune person to work with and didn't try anything else before that. About the fungus not realizing Ellie is immune, the dog in episode 6 could detect infected people, it was suspicious of Ellie at first but failed to identify her infection, meanwhile the scanners can detect her infection, so I guess for infected she doesn't look, smell or sound like one of them, but once the fungus reaches her bloodstream "it realizes" she's been infected already and doesn't progress.
These are all well-thought out and observational points, and I had the same thought about them living in this world for 20 years. It's been studied and people know about it. So, good on you. Good work.
Not only that. It takes approximately 14 to 16 years of medical study and practice for someone to be able to consistently do successful surgeries on the brain (I mean, to navigate around the brain without destroying masses of it). If the doctor is in his mid-40s during Joel's spree, that would mean that his success rate is significantly low (if not 0%, and that's being kind to the point of expecting a miracle) when thinking about 2003 medical standards (he would have been in his 20s when the outbreak happened, which would mean that he was a medical intern then, not even close to a general surgeon). In other words, a normal hospital in 2003 would not allow this doctor to do this surgery, if any, period.
Excellent point, only fault is you think it is a mistake to kill her. You can't guarantee a whole cordy with all its chemical producing parts and reproductive cells that are capable of reproducing from a biopsy, you can guarantee it from her intact brain.
Yeah, I cant imagine that FEDRA wouldn't have cut up dozens, if not hundreds of Infected to see what makes them tick. Plus, in the early days of the infection, the various national armies, as well as places like the CDC or WHO, would have definitely done autopsies, like we saw the myconologist do in the Episode 2 cold open. And FEDRA, being a federal agency (at least back at the beginning) would have had access to that info.
@RealTalkAlexV - yeah, as a System Architect, that has been working in almost every country in EU, US (LA, NY), Canada, Australia, Japan... I feel the same watching every movie with anything to do with IT. Pretty sad at the end. I appreciate dumbing down everything for the average audience, but at some point you know some of the stuff is simply stupid, and it doesn't work like that in the real life. Not at all.
The Ellie question is so complicated. The how they did it put me on Joel's side. They jumped right to murder and skipped consent. There were no attempts to do anything else. I do assume there were types of research done that might allow some people to learn it grew in the brain. Joel traveled a lot so he could pick up that knowledge. As far as we know though, Ellie is the first of her type, so tests would make sense before a fatal attempt at a cure. Joel lost some sympathy by lying to Ellie though. He didn't say no because he wanted them to try other things. It was touching he chose her over the world, but it wasn't right. If I was Ellie, and I had confidence in their plan I would gladly sacrifice myself. Though where her head was at the time of the question (had it been asked) could she have competently answered it? Should moments of extreme guilt and depression affect competency? Especially in children? So many ethical questions, and no right answers.
There's also no guarantee they would have succeeded in making a cure, and even if they did, how much would it really help? they don't know that the fireflies would choose to distribute it to everyone, first of all, they have plenty of political enemies and clearly they can be real shady. There's also no guarantee they would be able to distribute a cure to everyone, even if they wanted to. AND, that wouldn't even save humanity in the slightest. Most people in this universe die from other people, lack of resources, or getting their throat ripped out by a zombie, not by infection, and a cure would fix none of those things.
Plus, hate to be that person, but the fact that she still had a full head of hair and a ponytail by the time she got to the OR, just isn't feasible. She would've had her head shaved completely clean, before going under the knife, so she would've known, unfortunately, unless they were giving her sedatives from the time they found her to keep her compliant.
My problem with the trolley problem in this is that the doctors don't even know that sacrificing Ellie will 100% save everyone. They were willing to sacrifice one person over a hypothesis rather than run tests to get to a conclusive theory/fact. It's a medical shame haha
Pretty sure they were out of time, basically not giving a flying F to do any tests to ensure she is the 'cure' but even if she was it’s pretty much a lost cause.
@LRSB they didn't do the test, so the problem is, if it didn't work, then they'd've just killed the only person that might hold a chance for a cure. Not to mention, they never told Ellie what the surgery entailed or that it would result in her death. Would she have chosen to go ahead anyway? Perhaps. But they took that choice away from her on the off-chance that maybe their idea would work.
There is a game Prey which is actually about this. It literally asks you the trolley problem at the start, which the vast majority of people answered with a "sacrifice the few to save the many" mentality, but it also tracked player choices in the rest of the game and the ratio was almost flipped on other questions that are basically that. Turns out the second you humanize the problem or add any doubt to the outcome it isn't as easy. You almost never get choices as clear cut as the trolley problem in real life, you are lucky if you even have a real prediction of percentages.
The fireflies should have done these things to prepare: - Redundancy - see if it was possible for Ellie to have immune kids even via test tube. (You can probably wait a couple years at this point. The death rate will be slower by then as most survivors are securely homed) - Let Ellie live a bit to make a non-adolescent fuelled decision. (It feels like a giant grieving tantrum) - Test it! - Ellie was bitten once. Yes, it’s hopeful, but perhaps test it properly first? - Do some other, non-invasive, tests first! Track how her body deals with an infection. Obviously, whatever is keeping her safe would have spread throughout the body if the scar healed that well. Also, immunity generally improves the more you test it.
The time between Joel being stabbed and them making it to Salt Lake where the stun grenade happens is months and months. So he could be somewhat recovered by then.
So cool! The hospital scenes were filmed in the hospital I had my first baby, Grande Prairie, Alberta. I had my daughter November 2021 and we ended up getting moved to the new hospital as she was in the NICU for a few weeks. But was really cool to hear and see that some of the scenes were even in the maternity ward!
Oh, that makes more sense! The whole scene seemed so absurd to me. Like how fast did the fungi travel to the baby - seemed like it was a matter of seconds. But if it was from the knife and the part of the umbilical cord still attached to the baby wasn't immediately removed, then there'd be more time for the fungi to travel. And it would also be a much shorter distance anyway.
Yes. The first episode he probably shouldn't have moved her but they were in the middle of a zombie outbreak. They needed to get out of the open where they could be very quickly surrounded.
One slight thing to point out, they had to walk from Colorado to Salt Lake City. The time between Joel getting stabbed and the flash bang was significant. Glad you pointed out the one thing that bothered me the most... that they were going to potentially kill the only known immune person for this one theory. For sure, any life threatening theory should have been a last resort.
Regarding the trolley problem: Neil Druckmann, the game's writer/director and show's co-producer, had said that when they first started play-testing the game with test audiences and asked them, "Did Joel make the right choice to save Ellie?" that folks without kids were split 50/50 but folks with kids were in 100% agreement with Joel. I think that is a great insight into how we change when we have kids. If you look at how long a process it was to develop a covid vaccine with MANY scientists collaborating worldwide using state-of-the-art technology and access via internet to volumes of information, the idea that "one doctor" who was somehow both a surgeon and an immunologist who was using 20 year old outdated equipment at the point working by himself would be successful on the first try is foolishly optimistic. More than likely they would have/should have run some tests, draw some blood, maybe do a biopsy, and then say, "hey, can you stay around for a few weeks while we study you?" The biggest most obvious question that I had was, "would Ellie pass on her immunity to her own child?" and that could be an AWESOME angle for a potential Part 3, that'd also allow for a "Ellie must save HER baby from kidnappers wanting to experiment on it" role reversal that would put her in Joel's shoes and give her a chance to understand and forgive Joel as well. (That could be a REALLY cool angle) Cheers
Nah man but you see what they would do is the kidnappers in the 3rd game would actually be the good guys all along, and they only did the things they did to save the world so that makes all of their decisions and horrible things actually good. And Ellie is the evil monster for killing them. And if you disagree you just don't understand the sophisticated themes of the game.
The difference with this version of the trolley problem, is one track has Ellie and one has like the entire world BUT they’re in a tunnel and Marlene is telling Joel no for sure trust me what is on the other side of the track
Speaking of snapping necks, there are a lot of those in the show The Originals and also a lot of "ripping hearts out of the chest" moments. I don't know why I thought about it but it's one of my favorite shows. Thank you for breaking down all of the medical stuff, really helpful, absolutely loved the show.
My favourite fan theory about the doctors in TLOU is that they're medschool dropouts. Would explain why those doctors and nurses are in their 30s and 40s (remember the outbreak happened 20 years ago) meaning they in their 20s at the oldest when it all went down. Plus we hear several times in the lore "there's no vaccine and no way to make one" and "there's no cure for a fungal infection". Not true for our world, of course, but if we take that as a fact of the world of TLOU then we already know the doctor is spouting gibberish from the get-go.
@@heretic-668 he got his bachelors in 2007 so he probably had 6 years of med school after and maybe still worked with doctors during the outbreak. But yeah I still dont think he could have created a cure off an untested hypothesis
I've always thought most of the doctors who would have actually been able to help find a cure would have died in the outbreak because they would have been on the frontlines trying to help
@@Michellebellman exactly! Like they would’ve died. Also to make a vaccine you need teams upon teams of people. Immunologists, biochemists, pharmacists, large labs where vaccines can actually be made all of which wouldve been sacked and ruined its just not possible.
i think that the actor for joel in the game was also in the show. i believe he was the cannibal guy who the leader sent back to camp to get ellie the antibiotics
@@complex_ that guy (Troy Baker) was indeed the voice actor of Joel! The actor that played Perry, the second to the rebel leader was the one who voiced Tommy. Marlene is played by the actress who voiced Marlene. One of the nurses in the operating room is Laura Bailey, the one who voiced a few npcs in game 1 and plays a main character in game 2. And ofcourse Anna, who is played by Ashley Johnson who voices Ellie ❤
Ive always thought part of it was that the fireflys were so reckless/gungho to test their hypothesis that they went straight for surgery rather than doing blood tests. I think in the games you can find notes where they did experiments/autopsies on infected people and that somewhat influenced their hypothesis on the procedure and cure they wanted to try and make, but the fact they jump right into it, with no consent from Ellie about it or any other testing, just tips the scales into being unjustifiable medical experimentation. I cant remember if the doctor had any experience with brain surgery, fungal infections, etc as well. Always felt very much like a 'we're doing this to save humanity so we have to do it right away theres no time to wait or test we cant live like this anymore' which on its own would likely doom humanity in destroying any samples they get and try to use as a cure as well as killing Ellie, who if they were patient could agree to supply them with blood, plasma, etc for testing over time to ensure all possibilities are accounted for. The almost incompetent hope filled and fueled group vs the family they are willing to destroy for something they have no (seemingly) real basis to expect to work
It was outright unjustifiable even without putting Ellie's consent into consideration. They're incompetent to think that they can find a cure immediately if they outright dissect Ellie, the only living human that could be possibly resistant to the Cordyceps. at this point we don't need to talk about the cure, everyone should consider how the Fireflies use that cure if every they actually managed to get a cure, which they likely can't.
Dr. Mike just validated thousands of people like me watching at home who said “JOEL DONT PULL IT OUT YOU IDIOT 😂” in the game it was really the only option but not here.
Great video but just to cover the last bit you were confused about. The reason the infected still attack Ellie is because the infection only causes people to attacking things around them, sort of like a really really bad version of rabies. They are referring to her actually getting the cordyceps in her body after an infected transfers it. So they would still attack people, but the infection wouldn’t spread through them. It’s also seen as common knowledge that it grows in the brain as it effects brain function and we know that surgeries have been done on infected as early as the second episode before the breakout even began.
yeah its easy to imagine they've done whataver research is possible during an apocalypse given they've also produced fact sheets about how long the incubation period is for different bite areas
Yea. I understand her explanation is overly simplistic and could easily be misconstrued, but I understood it that way too. Just like the dog in episode 6 could not detect that she was infected, the other infected can't detect it either. The cordyceps she has within her only interacts with other cordyceps that actually enter her system to stop them from taking over.
The first part is not true, don’t care if any game devs or show runners say it is. But if the fungi just caused the infected to attack things around them, they would constantly be attacking each other. Which we see none of in the games or show.
Agreed that this is an insane conclusion re: immunity of Ellie. Couldn't Ellie also be a carrier- like Typhoid Mary, or the mum from 28 weeks later? They make a lot of wild assumptions about the nature of her immunity before jumping right for "let's chop up bits of her brain". It would only count as the Trolley problem if they actually knew it would work- which they very much don't.
she isn't actually immune, an immune person isn't infected and wouldn't show up as an actual infected individual she is actively infected with the brain infection
Someone else made a great point like that. Like, what if she caused Sam to succumb to the fungus faster because she placed her spore-filled blood on his open wound? She's more of a miracle survivor story on her own than she is any indication that there's a cure available. What would probably end up being the case in a post-apocalyptic world is that the govt would try to recruit others like her (if any exist) to birth children with that same immune blood so that the human race wouldn't continue to rapidly decline every time someone was bitten.
PhD student in microbiology here. The fungus part of this show is decently researched. Obviously there are extraordinary evolutionary leaps that are extremely improbable, but the idea of using Cordyceps is the most logical “zombie” out there. Also I want to slightly correct Dr Mike. The amount of antifungals are actually very low as compared to something like antibiotics. They are not always the best either in desired result. The ones for bad fungal infection tend to also be very toxic to the host as well. So yes there are treatments but I think most medical mycologists would say research into antifungals are extremely important and very much needed.
As a special effects makeup artist, I always sit back and judge how real the makeup looks in these shows. Now, because of Dr. Mike, I look at how medically accurate they are as well. No one is ever going to want to watch tv/movies with me again!😂
Years ago I was in the hospital for 2 weeks alone just trying to get a proper biopsy from my left lung. Eventually found out it was Blastomychosis. A fungus that hasn't really been dealt with since the 1940's and 50's, but I'm diabetic type one so of course I inhaled a spore, and it blossomed over a few weeks until all my lymph nodes blew up and I went in to the ER. I needed a port for 9 months so I could take the meds by IV for an hour every day. I had to meet up with doctors that worked for the CDC for follow ups. It was a trippy thing to go through.
I feel validated for all the things I shouted to the telly about that whole Joel and the bat and everything after. Also, there’s no guarantee that whatever they do to Ellie will actually make a cure so, easy trolley problem solution: don’t sacrifice the Ellie.
I think the foot wrapping was meant to be a cross bandage, or a figure 8 bandage, which does give some support. You can see him going around the ankle also. Still it's true it would be better to give more support like you said, but they didn't have much time.
Ellie's mother in the show is actually the original voice actor / mo-cap actor for Ellie in the video game. And the house they are showing is the home from the sequel of the video game. Very cool fan details they added
I mean, having a 14-year-old not knowing what to do in a medical emergency is just plain realistic. Like, of course she's going to try sowing him up. She's a kid, not a Doctor. Same with Joel trying desperately to save his daughter. He's utterly distraught, in shock and watching the person he loves most bleeding out in his arms. Same when he pulls out the broken bit of wood. If you look at his face, he's totally in shock and just doing it without thinking. You can make an argument for the Firefly hospital scene, but again, there's a chance that these were people who didn't even graduate medical school before the apocalypse - they could just be trying to cobble stuff together from leftover medical books they find. Having the characters in these shows acting like professional doctors despite having no medical training or simply just being a kid, that would be super unrealistic. These videos are fun to watch and informative, but should not be allowed to influence actual storytelling.
The disease's name says it's in the brain. In the beginning of the game, you can find a note from doctors explaining Cordyceps Brain Infection (CBI), and it says for the incubation : " After initial infection, the parasite travels to the host's brain over a period of one to two days. The incubation concludes when the cordyceps has taken over all major bodily functions of the host (Stage one CBI) ". So there was no surprise on my part that Joel and Marlene knew that.
In the game there are xrays that show the progression of the infection and how it grows in the brain. So Joel sees those in the games and then says that line afterwards a few hours later. But in the series maybe they had people studying it sooner and made it common knowledge.
This game was my outlet in 2020. Trying to survive chaotic emergency department night shifts during a global pandemic. Then go home and destress trying to survive in a post apocalyptic global pandemic.
A head mirror is mostly used for examination of the ear, nose and throat. It comprises a circular concave mirror, with a small hole in the middle, and is attached to a head band. The mirror is worn over the physician's eye of choice, with the concave mirror surface facing outwards and the hole directly over the physician's eye, providing illumination like a ring light. Wikipedia
On the brain surgery part. EXACTLY!!! There are so many steps to do before removing the brain. Also why would you choose the option that would 100% kill the one chance to find a cure as your first option?!?!? Ellie wasnt dying and she’s only 15. They had time!!
they are trying to use 'implied time flow' they had X amount of time before the show even started to have all this research on the Cordyceps, so they are using that implied knowledge to justify the surgery, which was really only added because it gave Joel an excuse to wipe them out.
@@KnightShadowsong Still doesn't make sense though, if they knew Ellie's resistance is unique. why outright kill her then and there? that's the main underlying issue why this has been discussed for a long time, sure they had medical records of people infected with the cordyceps, but we're talking about an individual that is possibly immune/resistant to the cordyceps someone that is alive and well without showing signs that she may be infected whatsoever. so It doesn't make sense to have a conclusion to dissect Ellie without further study of this individual. emphasis on the individual.
@@johnP0908 The logic they used in the game was they needed a sample of the cordycepts that lived in the brain stem. I'm assuming because the fungus there was sending the 'stop' signal to the other types, but that's just my best guess.
16:45 This is why the game version is sm better and feels less rushed, it makes much more sense to remove the cordycepts to examine them first and only recour to surgery as a last resource
In both the game and the show, they know a lot about the infected and when the infection spreads to change them into different types. It's not a big leap for me to assume that they know that the fungus grows in the brain. There are notes in the game about infected being studied pre transformation.
If I was Joel, I wouldn't sacrifice Ellie either. For two reasons: 1) They didn't get consent from her, they just took her and put her under anesthesia! If she wants to sacrifice herself, that's her call and not Marlene's nor anyone else's, but she has to be informed that she's not going to survive and that the chances of actually producing a cure are slim. After being properly informed, if she still wants to do it, then ok. And 2) they're not even sure if this is going to work because, as you said, they didn't do any frigging tests! They didn't take any blood samples, didn't make any brain scans... nothing. I understand this is a post-apocalyptic situation, but how do they expect to produce the cure if they don't have any equipment? If they have the equipment to produce it, they have the equipment to run some tests. If not, Ellie dying is all for nothing.
im pretty sure in the game they did some testing also there would have been no real way to distribute a vaccine and how many doeses would they be able to make?
@@nightlol111 Ok, then next time you go under the knife, hope you don't mind if the doctor extracts a kidney. Little Timmy needs one to live, and you have two, so who cares, right? Also, how are they planning on mass-producing and distributing the vaccine? That people are in danger regardless if they do the surgery or not.
@@redpandasarecool3 Haven't played the game, so can't comment on that, but yeah, they don't have any real way to mass produce and distribute the vaccine. It's all for nothing.
I am a pre-med student and the scene at 2:46 I exactly said the same that Why is He pulling out he doesn't have to touch it until help arrives (which won't) or until he gets to a comfort zone!
Obviously it is a TV show, but I think a lot of time has gone by from Joel being stabbed with the bat and when they got to the concussion grenade scene. I think it is really poetic that the voice and performance actor for Ellie (Ashley Johnson) gave birth to the character in the game, but is now physically giving birth to Ellie in the show. I find it pretty deep thinking about it like that.
Something that I know others have talked about is the "surgeons" age. We only briefly see him but he's roughly 50. So that means he had just been exiting med school when everything went down. How qualified would he be to do brain surgery? I'd love to hear your opinion on this.
He has a bachelor's degree in biology, so he's not a surgeon at all, and is not qualified to perform brain surgery, I do believe he practiced surgery during the apocalypse but other than that he has no real experience
@@lrsb1678 "done surgeries in the apocalypse" does not equal to "I can do a successful surgery on the brain". It takes approximately 14 to 16 years of medical study and practice for someone to be a barely certified neurosurgeon. I say "barely certified" because he/she would have only had sufficient experience in properly controlled settings and not crazy settings with many emergent variables like what neurosurgeons deal with in general.
@@SableLeaf okay just humor my out there thinking. Could we make the jump that given this terrible fast acting infection that's rambling the whole world very quickly, maybe focus would have shifted to primarily working on anything that might help with this infection, a cure, how it works, etc etc etc. So a person in the field, even indirectly, might receive education and experience with these specific issues after this apocalypse begins.
The stun grenade incident happens weeks if not months after the stab wound. They're in a totally new area and all the snow has gone. If they're using similar locations and timescales to the game they've covered about 500 miles on foot and its gone from winter to spring. Estimating 10 miles per day (assuming Joel's recovery, finding food, shelter, not having smooth terrain, etc) thats at least 50 days.
In the game it was better explained that they were harvesting every bit of Ellie to dissect and study with no idea if they could actually make a cure which is why I felt the trolley problem wasn’t really in effect. They were mad scientists at that point to me
Where in the game did they explain they were going to dissect her? I must have missed it the first 3 playthroughs and didn't catch anything like that in Part2 either. Was it in a journal or something?
Dude I literally just played the game and this was not what was said. And mad scientists? Really? Killing one girl to create the only potential there will ever be for a cure to be made makes them crazy?
@@mr.stuffdoer8483 Yes it does, which is why we don't allow murdering people for science. Also it's not literally spelled out but in both the campus and the hospital there are clear indications that they've experimented on people before, including killing somewhat immune people in the hopes of making a vaccine.
@@mr.stuffdoer8483 And that's not to mention the fact that they don't even have the most basic idea of how to handle fungi, or how to create a vaccine, I guess that makes them more stupid than crazy though xD
@@mr.stuffdoer8483 yes, it's ridiculous to kill her. While she is alive she can continuously provide blood, white cells and even living fungus... Killing her right away made no sense. No way organic material would last too long and if they couldn't find a cure before whatever is left of Ellie expires then everything would be for nothing... But I guess is more of a plot issue than the mad scientist themselves. Maybe they went directly for the kill because they were so desperate to find a solution.. either way, they weren't making the right call
@@betteryourlife865 Yep. In the Last of Us (2013/PS3) at the Surgeon's recorder (wikipedia). They described Ellie as one of a kind. Fireflies only ever tested on infected people or monkeys at the Colorado University lab w/ quote 'their eyes are still red' & aren't immune. It is still dumb for the Fireflies to risk Ellie/the only immune Cordyceps host for risky fatal brain surgery. And they only did 1-day of testing w/ her. No blood/CSF culture, no plasma antibody/passive vaccine, why no biopsy/CT scan. They didn't even know if the Cordyceps survive outside of Ellie. Didn't even theorize that maybe Ellie's offspring (genes, host factor) was the cure, etc...
It was probably not known when the game was made, but it was found that cordyceps doesn't actually enter and grow in the brain of the insects it infects as originally thought. It is actually more frightening than that, it spread through the muscular system and connect themselves through a complex communication system. They effectively cut off the brain from controlling the body. The host know what is going on but is trapped in it's own body it can't control.
In the game, it was better explained why they knew it grew in the brain as players with a keen eye and who love the lore could sift through medical documents and scan print outs strewn around the offices in the hospital while on Joel's rampage. I suspect that they presented the characters' theories in such a wild manner probably had something to do with time constraints or to keep the viewers engaged.
I had surgery recently and lost a decent amount of blood (no where near what Joel would have lost) and was/an anaemic and I couldn’t even walk to the toilet without fainting. Lasted 2 weeks!
Both my parents are in the medical field and they taught me what things to do when injured and when Joel got stabbed I just kept yelling at the screen to not remove it
Another thought about the Ellie’s birth is that the infection flowed through the cord blood, which may have some benefit vs directly being bitten. Stem cells and such. Still a stretch, but workable from a fiction standpoint
That’s what I was thinking too. Maybe it being filtered through the placenta was what ultimately kept her safe. Definitely a unique situation for a pregnant woman to get bit then right away give birth and then have someone keep the baby safe and have them grow up.
I read that the cordyceps that infect insects and such, actually grow in their muscles rather than their brains. Although I understand the show's / game's choice of going for brain control, it would make Sam's question about it "being you inside" even more horrific if it were muscle control rather than brain control.
The bloom erupts after the insect has died, though, & the fungus feeds on the insides as it blooms. I’ve heard the same as the OP; it doesn’t infect the brain til the end. But the game/show is make-believe & probably has a different species that evolved just for humans.
that's an even more horrifying version of it if you think about it, imagine being trapped in your own body and unable to stop yourself from turning into a savage killing machine
People forget she's a kid, that's the whole point of her trying to do the blood transfusion, trying to just stab the insulin in the wound, trying to suture the wound. Shes just a kid and thinks all of this stuff is going to work.
@@gabythewolfyaoi I don't understand why they didn't though of another for Joel to survive his knife injuries. Like be hit, differently like, something less gruesome but more believable. I don't think the audience is that stupid to believe it would of work.
I literally shouted “Don’t pull the baseball bat out!!” when I first saw the college scene. I’ve watched enough of your videos and researched for my stories that I know some things. Also, literally a week after TLOU premiered, there were reports about fungus adapting the exact way the scientist in episode 1 did. The article went viral because of the horrendous timing. Not the zombie fungus, but several that could cause serious damage because of climate change:
In the second game (spoiler) there’s a scene when Ellie goes back to the hospital and you can access her documents from the initial surgery. She’s had some MRI scans and it states that they gave her neurofen and Flagyl. Curious to see what you think of these findings
I watched this show with my parents and omg from watching your videos the first aid scenes were so infuriating. Like pulling out the bat and him being fine after no surgery within like 5 days was insane to me.
SPOILER ALERT IF HAVEN'T SEEN THE SHOW- Yes! And Troy Baker who voiced Joel in the game, played David's #2 (can't remember the character's name) he's the one that Ellie killed when David and he had Ellie in the room on the table and were going to kill & cut her apart for food. I LOVE that they put both the game voice actors Joel & Ellie, in the show! We're huge fans of Troy Baker & Ashley Johnson as voice actors! Loved the show!
fun fact! they used a real hospital to shoot the hospital scenes. It was in Grande Prairie, AB (my hometown) we had just switched over to our new hospital and it was great timing with filming!! its the QEll Hospital and is now still being put to good use with other types of care now
That’s actually a great spot for an IV. Antecubital ones fail more often or are positional because the catheter bends along with your arm so some patients end up needing to keep their arm straightened out during infusions.
just a heads up, the scene with the concussion grenade is MONTHs after he was stabbed. I think it might have just been an accidental thing based on your train of thought at the time but figured i would point this out.
16:16 .... because you dont need to know about it ... in the series there were 20 years of people studing that fungus :S it just common sense that basic information is gonna be available .
I literally just learned how to render someone unconscious with a rear naked choke in martial arts class today. It’s interesting that I’m watching this after class and I totally agree with Dr Mike. The pressure on the neck arteries, if applied correctly, is the most effective and fastest way to make them unconscious. You don’t need to do anything else except keep that pressure for at least 10 seconds, or sometimes less, until they go limp. Obviously you don’t do this without proper self defense training & only if all other attempts to de-escalate have failed to get your attacker to stop their actions towards you have failed. Even when doing this in self defence or martial arts classes, you don’t apply hardly any pressure, because it’s dangerous. You want to keep your training partner safe and same thing when they are practicing on you, so you can keep working together next class. ❤
I was hoping Mike would catch that for the “surgery” where they have to go into her brain, Ellie was not prepped and sterilized at all, her hair was not clipped, no drape, she was not intubated. Whatever “drugs” they gave her through that mask would have worn off asap. Also, it makes sense that they know it grows in the brain as they have been in it for 20 years. I’m sure they have learned at least a little something. I expected them to run some kind of blood work at least though 😅😅 I literally just finished the last episode before coming to watch this so it’s all fresh rn lol
The trolly problem was discussed in my philosophy class a few months ago and I think it'd be interesting to discuss it further with this sort of context cause we were using general baseline would you do blank if blank for the trolley problem. I'm personally partial to the relationship Joel and Ellie have so I lean that way emotionally but logically if the cure could work I say try it, but ONLY if Ellie gives her consent to the consequences. One of the big problems I had with the Fireflies was the fact that they didn't give Ellie a choice in whether or not she wanted to give her life for the cure. If Ellie agreed, it would be different, but because they didn't bother to ask her, I say Joel was justified in his saving Ellie.
Finally, the medical explanations I've been waiting for in weeks, esp when Joel got stabbed & passed out from internal hemorrhaging, which Ellie performed supernatural medical surgery & remedies.
We used that same ankle taping technique or a very similar one in baseball. Ive had a lot of rolled ankles and that was used to add stability so you could keep playing.
I would have loved for the show to expand the final episode. It would have made more sense if it took a year or so to conduct tests on Ellie to try to find a cure and have Joel stay there waiting for her to be released. It could be a montage where the scientists would try their best at finding a cure, only to fail and resort to carving out her brain as an act of desperation. It would also make Joel's actions more rational, as he would have waited a year only to learn that they were going to kill her for what is basically a fool's hope. Oh also it would make sense that he has the strength to take out the entire security force there since he at least recovered from his injuries
The leading theory in the game (by fans) is that Ellie was infected with a slightly different strain of cordyceps (militaris?). This strain is used in antifungal medication so could be that's what is preventing her from being infected with the "zombie" strain. Would also explain the labs results that she tests positive for cordyceps but just not the right strain and she has low white and red blood counts (medical documents shown in game)
My dad (a doctor) told me after watching the last episode that Ellie would never needed to die to get the cure. If the cordyceps chemical signals were the source, then all they would really need is a blood sample. And even if it was nessasary to do brain surgery, they could do that by only taking a micro amount of brain tissue without killing the patient. If she is really the only hope for the human race, then you gotta keep her alive and healthy if there is any more need for tests.
Plus even if it was like, "we need her cerebrospinal fluid," you can do a spinal tap...
Basically all I'm hearing is that Joel was right
My head canon is that the FireFlies are way in over their heads, and don't have the manpower, expertise, knowledge, or anything, with too much bad leadership to do any proper brain surgery, and are bassically just rushing through a hail mary attempt, because they don't know what else to do.
There had to be some sort of drama added to make the game/show go on. LOL
@@KrystalNCMA true and the guy wasn't even a real doctor I read somewhere that he was doing major in biology or something and he basically lied so yeah the audience and mike and the show was right that he is a big dumbass.
that’s why i like the game version more, makes more sense to have to remove the cordycepts to examine them
Joel was running on that Penicillin and fatherly love for all of his fights in episode 8😂
😂😂righttt
That whole episode was really bothering me hahaha
Lol facts!
Or more likely with "implied time flow" he had recovered JUST enough to fight (even if he was much weaker than normal) And his 'fight or flight' reflex was overriding his bodies signals and he was in serous 'I need morphine right now' pain once the adrenaline wore off.
hes just built different
Consent and lack of any sort of previous non-life threatening tests is exactly why I will defend Joel’s decision until the end of freaking time. They didn’t fully inform Ellie, didn’t allow her to make a decision, and didn’t allow her any closure with Joel. They stripped her of any human rights and that’s the worst crime in my opinion. Plus just the ridiculously massive jump to the conclusion that they HAVE to kill her just… god, it’s awful. Everything about how the Fireflies went about this boils my blood.
Him being a father is enough for me to defend him. I wouldn’t sacrifice my kid for the world. They can call me selfish, but I could care less what would happen to me. As long as I did my duties as a parent, that’s all that would matter.
@@ashebennett7726 hell I can agree even if Joel did doom humanity I am on his side 100 percent because that's what good parent would do.
@gissellest333that’s literally being selfish your choosing your love over everyone else and that’s fine everything on the planet does that cause that’s the point but it is selfish
then you didn't get the point of the story. Joel didn't care about any of that. they could have treated her with the utmost respect and given her full control over the decision. even if they did a thousand tests beforehand to determine that killing her would be the only option to save the world. Joel's decision would have been the same.
@@ashebennett7726 hopefully you're not teaching your kid how to speak English, because the term is COULDN'T care less, NOT "could care less" which is a nonsense phrase. Maybe you should give your kid up for adoption, so they can get smart parents instead.
The fact that the fireflies didn't try anything with her blood and the plasma is what baffled me too. To jump straight to the brain being the only place to go was nuts when really the infection is all over her body
They are using the 'implied time flow' thing you get in Games/shows, they had 20 years from the beginning of the outbreak to the point the show ended to research the cordyceps, it's reasonable to assume that they would have tried using dead infected persons antibodies to attempt a vaccine, but seeing as that hasn't worked until they get to Ellie, they are implying they need the brain of the Cordyceps to fully contain it, Fungus have brains, central control area's where all the signals to it's body are made, that's why killing Fungus is relatively hard, say you pull a mushroom up from the ground, if you leave even a bit of it in the ground it will rebuild itself, because the brain isn't in the top, it's protected underground to avoid being eaten by predators, they are implying that the Cordyceps in the game/show use the brain as it's protective housing because our skulls are probably the safest bit in a human body, it has a natural hardened shell and a good source of food in the brain itself, it also has control over our brains which in turn control our bodies.
@@KnightShadowsong explain the clicker stage infection where the fungi bursts its said "protective housing" wide open if the core of infection really is there
The blood isnt important the reason she is a immune is cause of a chemical messenger in the brain
@@johncarlofernandez2698 well if you think about it, the fungus resistance to being destroyed once its out of the skull is higher, cause based on what you see on the game, a person who is still on the "runner" stage dies from one shot on the head, while the "clickers" die from two, which means that yes, once the cordyceps is big enough to destroy the skull it is also capable of protecting itself more efficiently
@@johncarlofernandez2698 I'm saying that in the early infection stage the skull would be a fair safe place, how much force dose it take to break the skull? A lot. IDK about the Clicker stage though, that's one of those game mysteries they never properly explain. but my point is the brain is the central control for our bodies, along with the spinal cord. that said, it makes reasonable sense given the implication's in the show/game that that would be where the Fungi's brain lives as well. it has a food source. it has access to our brains to control our bodies, and when it finishes with the brain it's possible that that is when it bursts out seeking more food resulting in the Clicker stage.
in the game I (and I assume most players) are given the impression that Joel was laid up with that wound in his abdomen for a couple weeks at least (because it goes from fall to middle of winter), and that's why he had recovered enough to help Ellie, even though he was clearly still struggling and healing. Joel put all his point in Vitality and Strength lmao
He's a literal tank, character wise.
Yeah I don't know how the show handled it, but that's definitely the case in the game. It's very clear that some time has passed.
Wouldn't adrenaline have an effect on his performance in that episode too?
@@natem1579 oh absolutely! but andrenaline doesnt last forever. i always assumed they were laid up for at least a month if not longer. like mid October to December or something.
It is implied that some time has passed in the show as well. Dunno why Mike ignored that.
Fun Fact: Ellie's mom is the actor who Ellie is actually modeled after in the game. It was a way of paying homage to the OG.
Ashley Johnson, baby! Love her :) I knew her first from Critical Role, with all of the other legends there.
@@thanossnap4170 And Laura Bailey in the doctors office which is ironic and probs purposeful bc she plays abby :')
She was also the VA. That's the real Ellie voice.
@@silentfangirl1176it was so cool to watch that scene with my parents and think 'man, she sounds familiar...' and then blurting out "That's Ellie!"
Ellie was modeled after Ellen Page. The original looked a lot like her, but she asked to changed it because she already had a deal for Beyond Two Souls. So they modified the face a little.
Just to add something that I noticed while watching, Ellie's mom also used the same knife that went through the infected's neck to cut the umbilical cord, exposing Ellie potentially.
That's was my first thought!
I hadn't caught that. But it makes sense.
My thinking was the infected bit her before/while giving birth to Ellie, and the small amount of cordyceps that spread through her body in that time acted as a natural vaccine. It's a bit like how the vaccine for smallpox came around: a small dosage of the virus helped develop antibodies and assisted in the creation of the vaccine. That's what made sense to me, at least. It's possible the knife could have had something to do with it as well.
@@glitch3818 I think that both are good explanations, with the infected knife it would also be a small exposure to the fungi
@David Martins I've just looked it up, and it's confirmed that the bite Anna received while birthing Ellie is the reason she's immune. The virus was transferred to her via the umbilical cord, which then acts as a chemical messenger, as in her system already thinks she's infected, and so any further infections are nullified.
This makes more sense than cutting the umbilical cord with a knife coated in cordyceps. For her to be infected via the knife, she would have had to have been physically cut with it since the umbilical cord transfers nutrients, oxygen, and other things contained in the mother's system to the fetus. That's the reason why smoking, drugs, and drinking while pregnant is so bad. Some infections can also be passed down through to the fetus as well, so naturally, the same goes for cordyceps.
When I watched Joel pull out the shard of the baseball bat, I immediately was like, "No! Joel, don't do that! You're gonna bleed out! What's Dr. Mike gonna say?!"
wouldnt the rocking of the horse cause more injury
😅
The game version of that scene and injury was more dramatic and over the top but somehow more believable/sensical. The game's Joel fell from an upper floor and got impaled on rebar.
He and Ellie had no choice but to yank him out since there were cannibals closing in to kill them, and there was no way to both grant him freedom to move and keep the foreign object plugged.
The show's Joel somehow got impaled deep with a shard of broken baseball bat through thick winter clothing. And he immediately pulled it out. The wood was only thing plugging his wound and keeping him from bleeding out. He should know better as survivor of many life and death struggles over a 20+ year span including a gunshot wound.
@@MildMisanthropeMaybeMassive the rocking of the horse would have damaged it further
@@MildMisanthropeMaybeMassive the game version is not believable at all
I get that Joel fully recovered very quickly after getting stabbed but that’s an angry father hyped on adrenaline. Nothing is stopping him
I just retcon it in my brain because they so easily could have made it more believable without changing the outcome. Ellie could know some basic medic stuff from military school. The injury itself could be one that causes shock in the short term but is stitchable. It could take longer for the cult to find them so the penicillin has longer to work. Joel could be conscious (and arguing about the risks Ellie is taking) and the suspense could be whether he's ambulatory enough. It's baffling that, having changed the injury, they didn't make it believable.
actually this wound would. It would stop anyone from doing anything. :P
@@Genomsnittet An ER doctor says in his reaction that basically Joel's going to bleed out most likely from hitting a major organ or blood vessel BUT he's seen ONE instance of a deep foreign object penetration like that where the object missed everything important, and the treatment was infection control plus stitching up the outside to close the abdominal wall where most of the bleeding was, to encourage clotting.
@@GenomsnittetThe stab wasn't deep and missed any important organs, the main concern would be infection
You make excellent points! Why did they immediately jump to brain surgery? If she’s the only immune person, why dispose of her so quickly?
were they planning to take her whole brain? i thought they were just going to biopsy it. seems pretty excessive to take someone's entire brain out on the theory that their brain is what makes them immune. it's like laundry, folks, do a spot treatment before you chuck the whole thing in.
and its not like they couldn't have done a biopsy, yes a brain one is dangerous but doesn't have to be fatal..i mean clearly all of this exists to manufacture a decision between killing ellie and saving the world but outside the context of the story I really don't think you would ever want to kill the only person who is immune
For story purposes.
In the game it's suggested that she's not immune per se, so much as it is she has a non-lethal growth of cordyceps that are growing in her brain. In order to extract the fungus they would have to detach it from her brain, which would kill her, but produce the fungus.
In the show it's all chemical messengers that imply all they need to do is draw some blood, so they have no need to do brain surgery. The reason they are is because they're following the game's story beats without any consideration for WHY the game chose those story beats.
Think about this, what if Ellie had offspring that were immune? Well they would never find out because they hit the nuclear option and ripped her brain out for practically zero reason other then a hair brain theory.
“My guys hemoglobin hasn’t recovered. HE’S STILL ANEMIC.” 😂😂 lost it at that part.
The bat scene bothered me a lot because in the video game he landed on a pole that was attached to the ground so he HAD to pull himself off of it but in the show he was just stabbed so he had no reason to pull it out, but as for all the happened after it about his recover time and being able to keep going your not taking in to account his 'Ellie senses'
Yes this bothered me too. And you’d think that Joel with all his combat/fighting experience would know not to pull out the piece of the bat to prevent bleeding.
@@Madison.Dances829true. But then again they needed a reason for the Winter section of the game and Joel could have just been surprised. It struck me as weird too, though.
i wish they stayed more true to the game because then if they do their own spin off, they just go off of naughty dogs reasoning for everything
bro wdym its the apocalypse he cant go to the hospital and leaving it in forever isn't an option
The broken bat bothered me as well.. In the video game, Joel fell and landed on a metal rebar rod. However, I would think falling from a 2nd floor walkway and landing on his back would've been enough to kill him.
In online discourse, someone pointed out that the doctors are probably medical students from 2003, or actual doctors but maybe not in the right field and with knowledge only from 2003. Also MatPat of Game Theory proposed a very logical explanation for Ellies immunity. In the game at least, its seems they are going a different direction in the show.
2013, at least in the game..
@@AlldaylongRock I thought the apocalypse happened in 2003 and the game took place in 2023?
@@pucamisc that’s the timeline for the series, but in the game the outbreak occurs in 2013 (the year the game was released). Joel and Ellie’s journey takes place in 2033 onwards.
In the game, part II reveals to the player that the doctor was an undergraduate biologist and all that he and the Fireflies were running on were conjectures and hunches. They didn't have a single clue on whether they could deliver on their own plan. Starting by the fact that they didn't have any laboratory equipment to actually synthesize whatever was in Ellie's body into something others could benefit from.
@@AlldaylongRock yeah, from that game theory channel, they said Ellie is likely infected with a different strain of cordyceps that is protecting her because different strains (like antifungals) actually want the host to survive so they can survive too. I think its like a win-win relationship. There's a scientific term for it. Beneficial relationship? Idk
Some fun facts. Ellie's Mom in the series is played by Ashley Johnson who is the Voice actor who played Ellie in the game. Very fitting that she gave birth to her in the series poetically. Also James (The person who assists David in the series with their cannibalistic practices) is played by Troy Baker who is Joel's actor in the game. I'm glad they decided to include the main 2 voice actors from the game in a different role in the series.
One of the nurses from the last episode is voiced by the person who voices the main antagonist for last of us 2
@@carlfredrick2190 Laura Bailey! She and Ashley are some of the creators of Critical Role, a hugely popular streaming D&D game whose actors all did various voices for the game as well.
and don't forget merle dandrige too who voiced marlene in the game!
@@carlfredrick2190 I figured one of the nurses would be the antagonist for season 2. I haven't seen or played the game, friend just told me the plot, so Idk about ages though.
Also Jeffrey Pierce who played Perry in the show voiced Tommy in the game :-)
Showing Ellie's birth and how she became immune verified a fan theory. It's true that in the game, we have no idea. Marlene is hinted to know more than she's telling us but that's par for the course. I personally think Marlene kept the information to herself because if it got out, combined with the authoritarian systems in place, it could lead to some pretty horrendous experimentation. Think wards of pregnant women being purposely infected, babies being experimented on, etc. Could it have lead to a cure? Maybe. Would it have been worth the cost? Maybe not.
Feel like that acutally weakens the series. A lot like why the mouth tendril things do and the lack of spore production.
implication in the game seemed to imply that her cordycept mutated in some uncertain way. Its why she can breath in spores without being affected, cause her cordycept has moved in already. But it neithered broke down her tissues nor affected her personality.
@@taddad2641 Either answer is fine with me, tbh because it would fit the narrative. The show is NOT the game and the game devs haven't actually confirmed anything so Ellie's mom's infection is cannon for the show but not for the game. The game is still a mystery and that's fine.
The idea that this handful of people know about Ellie and are as secretive as possible about her while trying to do whatever they think they need to to get her to where she needs to be still holds up. As does the very bleak ending.
If the sacrifice of a few would help save the human race, it would 100% be worth it.
They inserted Ellie’s birth yes to show why she’s immune, but also because Ashley Johnson played Ellie in the game, and they wanted to include her in the show. I love that. Apparently Ashley was chatting with the producer, Bella walked in the room, Ashley’s face lit up, and she said “that’s Ellie!!”
One of the reasons why the show works so well is because there’s a real bond between everyone involved. The chemistry between the actors isn’t faked, they’re real friends, and that’s partially credit to the producers who created a family-like environment. Having the original actors included in the show is a beautiful thing - even if Troy Baker went from “I must protect Ellie at all costs” to “I must kill Ellie at all costs” 😂
I don't know anything about the game but I like the series because it truly shows that passionate people have made it happened
@@tomascostanzo3673 the game is better in every way you should definitely play it. The game focuses more on Joel on Ellie and they have a lot more chemistry.
@@Traskie LOL stop. The game is brilliant. The television show is the best game adaptation ever made. There is beautiful chemistry between Pedro Pascal and Bella Ramsey. WTF are you even smoking?!
@DragonBat362isback I see you accidentally signed in on one of your other troll accounts.
@@kevinscottbailey8335 I mean the bar is set pretty low.
This confirms what I thought the first time I finished the game. The fireflies have no idea what they were doing and Joel did the right thing on saving Ellie.
Agree.
And he deserved what he got.
That's still the wrong idea. The Fireflies SHOULD have every idea what they were doing, but the writers didn't and were just trying to shove in some last piece of drama into the story.
@@ohauss why they should?
@ohauss No, they shouldn't. They're a dying paramilitary group that can barely hold its internal structure together well enough to actually achieve anything, there's no reason to believe they'd have the sophisticated network of scientists/medical researchers, let alone the equipment, needed to produce and disseminate a viable vaccine. Most likely this would've just been Ellie dying for nothing but hopes and dreams.
17:51 😂 my mom who is the nurse she had a similar comment about the penicillin and how Ellie gave him that shot, saying you gotta find a vain and not just stab in anywhere or into the wound. I loved her reaction though cause it was kinda funny
@HuskyMN2002 - just like that - no.
But on some people you cannot see veins very well, as they may be covered under a layer of fat, so they usually try to go somewhere inside the elbow area, then the wrist area (inside part), and then they go for those small vains on top of your hand. Been there, done that (bloody painfull when they miss the vein in the inside part of the wrist and hit the bone with the needle). Usually nurses are much more experienced at this than doctors. Way more.
Anyway, yeah - you cannot stab people just randomly in hope to hit some vein, to administrate some drugs/medicine. Not in every case anyway.
About their Cordyceps knowledge, 20 years dealing with (and probably dissecting) infected must've given people some knowledge about how the fungus spreads, since it controls people's minds it's not crazy to propose that it grows inside the brain. In episode 1 they even had a chart with the total infection times based on where the victims were bit, they also developed the scanners after the apocalypse so they surely had the tech to study Cordyceps in depth.
About the surgery, they were probably going to split open Ellie's brain to try and get her "strand" of Cordyceps out, killing her in the process, which is a huge mistake since they only have 1 immune person to work with and didn't try anything else before that.
About the fungus not realizing Ellie is immune, the dog in episode 6 could detect infected people, it was suspicious of Ellie at first but failed to identify her infection, meanwhile the scanners can detect her infection, so I guess for infected she doesn't look, smell or sound like one of them, but once the fungus reaches her bloodstream "it realizes" she's been infected already and doesn't progress.
These are all well-thought out and observational points, and I had the same thought about them living in this world for 20 years. It's been studied and people know about it.
So, good on you. Good work.
Not only that. It takes approximately 14 to 16 years of medical study and practice for someone to be able to consistently do successful surgeries on the brain (I mean, to navigate around the brain without destroying masses of it). If the doctor is in his mid-40s during Joel's spree, that would mean that his success rate is significantly low (if not 0%, and that's being kind to the point of expecting a miracle) when thinking about 2003 medical standards (he would have been in his 20s when the outbreak happened, which would mean that he was a medical intern then, not even close to a general surgeon). In other words, a normal hospital in 2003 would not allow this doctor to do this surgery, if any, period.
Excellent point, only fault is you think it is a mistake to kill her.
You can't guarantee a whole cordy with all its chemical producing parts and reproductive cells that are capable of reproducing from a biopsy, you can guarantee it from her intact brain.
Yeah, I cant imagine that FEDRA wouldn't have cut up dozens, if not hundreds of Infected to see what makes them tick. Plus, in the early days of the infection, the various national armies, as well as places like the CDC or WHO, would have definitely done autopsies, like we saw the myconologist do in the Episode 2 cold open. And FEDRA, being a federal agency (at least back at the beginning) would have had access to that info.
@@arklytte not that it really matters but its called mycologist(people who study fungi) and not myconologist
“My guys hemoglobin hasn’t recovered, he’s still anemic” 😂😂😂 thanks for that one Dr Mike ❤
No joke, I read that just as he said it.
@RealTalkAlexV - yeah, as a System Architect, that has been working in almost every country in EU, US (LA, NY), Canada, Australia, Japan... I feel the same watching every movie with anything to do with IT. Pretty sad at the end. I appreciate dumbing down everything for the average audience, but at some point you know some of the stuff is simply stupid, and it doesn't work like that in the real life. Not at all.
The Ellie question is so complicated. The how they did it put me on Joel's side. They jumped right to murder and skipped consent. There were no attempts to do anything else. I do assume there were types of research done that might allow some people to learn it grew in the brain. Joel traveled a lot so he could pick up that knowledge. As far as we know though, Ellie is the first of her type, so tests would make sense before a fatal attempt at a cure.
Joel lost some sympathy by lying to Ellie though. He didn't say no because he wanted them to try other things. It was touching he chose her over the world, but it wasn't right.
If I was Ellie, and I had confidence in their plan I would gladly sacrifice myself. Though where her head was at the time of the question (had it been asked) could she have competently answered it? Should moments of extreme guilt and depression affect competency? Especially in children? So many ethical questions, and no right answers.
There's also no guarantee they would have succeeded in making a cure, and even if they did, how much would it really help? they don't know that the fireflies would choose to distribute it to everyone, first of all, they have plenty of political enemies and clearly they can be real shady. There's also no guarantee they would be able to distribute a cure to everyone, even if they wanted to. AND, that wouldn't even save humanity in the slightest. Most people in this universe die from other people, lack of resources, or getting their throat ripped out by a zombie, not by infection, and a cure would fix none of those things.
Plus, hate to be that person, but the fact that she still had a full head of hair and a ponytail by the time she got to the OR, just isn't feasible. She would've had her head shaved completely clean, before going under the knife, so she would've known, unfortunately, unless they were giving her sedatives from the time they found her to keep her compliant.
Yeah but consent in a world like that? Can’t blame them for that.
@@aClownBaby- I do since the cure wouldn't be very effective anyway
@@EeveelutionStorm Pretty sure shaving is done in the OR. It wouldn't have been out of place for the nurses to be holding an electric razor.
My problem with the trolley problem in this is that the doctors don't even know that sacrificing Ellie will 100% save everyone. They were willing to sacrifice one person over a hypothesis rather than run tests to get to a conclusive theory/fact. It's a medical shame haha
Pretty sure they were out of time, basically not giving a flying F to do any tests to ensure she is the 'cure' but even if she was it’s pretty much a lost cause.
@LRSB they didn't do the test, so the problem is, if it didn't work, then they'd've just killed the only person that might hold a chance for a cure. Not to mention, they never told Ellie what the surgery entailed or that it would result in her death. Would she have chosen to go ahead anyway? Perhaps. But they took that choice away from her on the off-chance that maybe their idea would work.
There is a game Prey which is actually about this. It literally asks you the trolley problem at the start, which the vast majority of people answered with a "sacrifice the few to save the many" mentality, but it also tracked player choices in the rest of the game and the ratio was almost flipped on other questions that are basically that. Turns out the second you humanize the problem or add any doubt to the outcome it isn't as easy. You almost never get choices as clear cut as the trolley problem in real life, you are lucky if you even have a real prediction of percentages.
Exactly.
The fireflies should have done these things to prepare:
- Redundancy - see if it was possible for Ellie to have immune kids even via test tube. (You can probably wait a couple years at this point. The death rate will be slower by then as most survivors are securely homed)
- Let Ellie live a bit to make a non-adolescent fuelled decision. (It feels like a giant grieving tantrum)
- Test it! - Ellie was bitten once. Yes, it’s hopeful, but perhaps test it properly first?
- Do some other, non-invasive, tests first! Track how her body deals with an infection. Obviously, whatever is keeping her safe would have spread throughout the body if the scar healed that well. Also, immunity generally improves the more you test it.
The time between Joel being stabbed and them making it to Salt Lake where the stun grenade happens is months and months. So he could be somewhat recovered by then.
Yeah the stun grenade scene is like almost the end of the season right?
So cool! The hospital scenes were filmed in the hospital I had my first baby, Grande Prairie, Alberta.
I had my daughter November 2021 and we ended up getting moved to the new hospital as she was in the NICU for a few weeks. But was really cool to hear and see that some of the scenes were even in the maternity ward!
Unfort
7:14 just a small correction. He was NOT just injured... the scene you're referring to was during Winter. It's a couple of months later I believe.
Implied Time Flow is such a wonderful thing. Specially with video's like this when the person watching doesn't take that into account.
@@KnightShadowsong For real
@@KnightShadowsong It was just a mistake. Happens.
I love the theory that Ellie was exposed from the cutting of the umbilical with a knife that was just plunged into an infected brain.
Oh, that makes more sense! The whole scene seemed so absurd to me. Like how fast did the fungi travel to the baby - seemed like it was a matter of seconds. But if it was from the knife and the part of the umbilical cord still attached to the baby wasn't immediately removed, then there'd be more time for the fungi to travel. And it would also be a much shorter distance anyway.
I agree. Also, look up umbilical stem cells. That will really get your brain going!
Yes. The first episode he probably shouldn't have moved her but they were in the middle of a zombie outbreak. They needed to get out of the open where they could be very quickly surrounded.
One slight thing to point out, they had to walk from Colorado to Salt Lake City. The time between Joel getting stabbed and the flash bang was significant. Glad you pointed out the one thing that bothered me the most... that they were going to potentially kill the only known immune person for this one theory. For sure, any life threatening theory should have been a last resort.
We also have no idea how long Joel was out. They could’ve been testing her all week.
Regarding the trolley problem: Neil Druckmann, the game's writer/director and show's co-producer, had said that when they first started play-testing the game with test audiences and asked them, "Did Joel make the right choice to save Ellie?" that folks without kids were split 50/50 but folks with kids were in 100% agreement with Joel. I think that is a great insight into how we change when we have kids.
If you look at how long a process it was to develop a covid vaccine with MANY scientists collaborating worldwide using state-of-the-art technology and access via internet to volumes of information, the idea that "one doctor" who was somehow both a surgeon and an immunologist who was using 20 year old outdated equipment at the point working by himself would be successful on the first try is foolishly optimistic. More than likely they would have/should have run some tests, draw some blood, maybe do a biopsy, and then say, "hey, can you stay around for a few weeks while we study you?"
The biggest most obvious question that I had was, "would Ellie pass on her immunity to her own child?" and that could be an AWESOME angle for a potential Part 3, that'd also allow for a "Ellie must save HER baby from kidnappers wanting to experiment on it" role reversal that would put her in Joel's shoes and give her a chance to understand and forgive Joel as well. (That could be a REALLY cool angle)
Cheers
Love your comment 💕
Nah man but you see what they would do is the kidnappers in the 3rd game would actually be the good guys all along, and they only did the things they did to save the world so that makes all of their decisions and horrible things actually good.
And Ellie is the evil monster for killing them.
And if you disagree you just don't understand the sophisticated themes of the game.
@@pintolerance785 Impressive, everything you just said is wrong
@@Everan614 Yeah WELL THAT'S WHAT THE LEAD GODDAMN GAME DESIGNERS DID IN THE SECOND GAME! I JUST DESCRIBED THE 2ND GAME!!!
The difference with this version of the trolley problem, is one track has Ellie and one has like the entire world BUT they’re in a tunnel and Marlene is telling Joel no for sure trust me what is on the other side of the track
Speaking of snapping necks, there are a lot of those in the show The Originals and also a lot of "ripping hearts out of the chest" moments. I don't know why I thought about it but it's one of my favorite shows.
Thank you for breaking down all of the medical stuff, really helpful, absolutely loved the show.
Lol, and I was thinking about The Vampire Diaries.
@@ellieadele3769 nice haha
My favourite fan theory about the doctors in TLOU is that they're medschool dropouts. Would explain why those doctors and nurses are in their 30s and 40s (remember the outbreak happened 20 years ago) meaning they in their 20s at the oldest when it all went down. Plus we hear several times in the lore "there's no vaccine and no way to make one" and "there's no cure for a fungal infection". Not true for our world, of course, but if we take that as a fact of the world of TLOU then we already know the doctor is spouting gibberish from the get-go.
Bachelors in Biology as established in the sequel game, IIRC. So not even faintly a real doctor.
@@heretic-668 he got his bachelors in 2007 so he probably had 6 years of med school after and maybe still worked with doctors during the outbreak. But yeah I still dont think he could have created a cure off an untested hypothesis
even now there are no vaccines for fungal infections
I've always thought most of the doctors who would have actually been able to help find a cure would have died in the outbreak because they would have been on the frontlines trying to help
@@Michellebellman exactly! Like they would’ve died. Also to make a vaccine you need teams upon teams of people. Immunologists, biochemists, pharmacists, large labs where vaccines can actually be made all of which wouldve been sacked and ruined its just not possible.
I like how they tied the game to the show using Ashley Johnson as Ellie’s mother. A simple nod like that is pretty awesome that a show writer can do.
i think that the actor for joel in the game was also in the show. i believe he was the cannibal guy who the leader sent back to camp to get ellie the antibiotics
@SwissCheeze- Nice to see another (maybe) Critter! ❤
@@complex_ that guy (Troy Baker) was indeed the voice actor of Joel!
The actor that played Perry, the second to the rebel leader was the one who voiced Tommy. Marlene is played by the actress who voiced Marlene. One of the nurses in the operating room is Laura Bailey, the one who voiced a few npcs in game 1 and plays a main character in game 2. And ofcourse Anna, who is played by Ashley Johnson who voices Ellie ❤
@@Sigilien they did more than just the voices. They did the full motion capture performance for those characters.
@@kkfan97 I know, I just wanted to let them know that there were even more connections to the game actors there
Ive always thought part of it was that the fireflys were so reckless/gungho to test their hypothesis that they went straight for surgery rather than doing blood tests. I think in the games you can find notes where they did experiments/autopsies on infected people and that somewhat influenced their hypothesis on the procedure and cure they wanted to try and make, but the fact they jump right into it, with no consent from Ellie about it or any other testing, just tips the scales into being unjustifiable medical experimentation. I cant remember if the doctor had any experience with brain surgery, fungal infections, etc as well. Always felt very much like a 'we're doing this to save humanity so we have to do it right away theres no time to wait or test we cant live like this anymore' which on its own would likely doom humanity in destroying any samples they get and try to use as a cure as well as killing Ellie, who if they were patient could agree to supply them with blood, plasma, etc for testing over time to ensure all possibilities are accounted for. The almost incompetent hope filled and fueled group vs the family they are willing to destroy for something they have no (seemingly) real basis to expect to work
It was outright unjustifiable even without putting Ellie's consent into consideration. They're incompetent to think that they can find a cure immediately if they outright dissect Ellie, the only living human that could be possibly resistant to the Cordyceps. at this point we don't need to talk about the cure, everyone should consider how the Fireflies use that cure if every they actually managed to get a cure, which they likely can't.
It still makes no sense whatsoever, because you cannot actually do that this way.
Wasnt he a veterinarian ❓
Dr. Mike just validated thousands of people like me watching at home who said “JOEL DONT PULL IT OUT YOU IDIOT 😂” in the game it was really the only option but not here.
I was yelling at Joel too. Don't pull that out!!!
Someone is going to take that out of context.
Not sure what is the other option. Normally we don’t pull it out but call ambulance. It’s not an option there.
@@gameman3981 😈
@@mrandmrsskye What? I was just stating a fact.
Great video but just to cover the last bit you were confused about. The reason the infected still attack Ellie is because the infection only causes people to attacking things around them, sort of like a really really bad version of rabies. They are referring to her actually getting the cordyceps in her body after an infected transfers it. So they would still attack people, but the infection wouldn’t spread through them. It’s also seen as common knowledge that it grows in the brain as it effects brain function and we know that surgeries have been done on infected as early as the second episode before the breakout even began.
yeah its easy to imagine they've done whataver research is possible during an apocalypse given they've also produced fact sheets about how long the incubation period is for different bite areas
You forgot to write *Supposedly* since we don't know if what they theorized would have actually worked.
Yea. I understand her explanation is overly simplistic and could easily be misconstrued, but I understood it that way too. Just like the dog in episode 6 could not detect that she was infected, the other infected can't detect it either. The cordyceps she has within her only interacts with other cordyceps that actually enter her system to stop them from taking over.
you can also see that the fungus grows from the brain, pushing out of the body to form stalkers, clickers, etc. they grow from the head down.
The first part is not true, don’t care if any game devs or show runners say it is. But if the fungi just caused the infected to attack things around them, they would constantly be attacking each other. Which we see none of in the games or show.
Agreed that this is an insane conclusion re: immunity of Ellie. Couldn't Ellie also be a carrier- like Typhoid Mary, or the mum from 28 weeks later? They make a lot of wild assumptions about the nature of her immunity before jumping right for "let's chop up bits of her brain". It would only count as the Trolley problem if they actually knew it would work- which they very much don't.
she isn't actually immune, an immune person isn't infected and wouldn't show up as an actual infected individual she is actively infected with the brain infection
Someone else made a great point like that. Like, what if she caused Sam to succumb to the fungus faster because she placed her spore-filled blood on his open wound? She's more of a miracle survivor story on her own than she is any indication that there's a cure available. What would probably end up being the case in a post-apocalyptic world is that the govt would try to recruit others like her (if any exist) to birth children with that same immune blood so that the human race wouldn't continue to rapidly decline every time someone was bitten.
PhD student in microbiology here. The fungus part of this show is decently researched. Obviously there are extraordinary evolutionary leaps that are extremely improbable, but the idea of using Cordyceps is the most logical “zombie” out there.
Also I want to slightly correct Dr Mike. The amount of antifungals are actually very low as compared to something like antibiotics. They are not always the best either in desired result. The ones for bad fungal infection tend to also be very toxic to the host as well. So yes there are treatments but I think most medical mycologists would say research into antifungals are extremely important and very much needed.
Not me WAITING for the part when Ellie injected Joel bevause I literally gave my husband this lecture as it happened. 😂 Great video. ❤
As a special effects makeup artist, I always sit back and judge how real the makeup looks in these shows. Now, because of Dr. Mike, I look at how medically accurate they are as well. No one is ever going to want to watch tv/movies with me again!😂
Years ago I was in the hospital for 2 weeks alone just trying to get a proper biopsy from my left lung. Eventually found out it was Blastomychosis. A fungus that hasn't really been dealt with since the 1940's and 50's, but I'm diabetic type one so of course I inhaled a spore, and it blossomed over a few weeks until all my lymph nodes blew up and I went in to the ER. I needed a port for 9 months so I could take the meds by IV for an hour every day. I had to meet up with doctors that worked for the CDC for follow ups. It was a trippy thing to go through.
Wow. I'm glad you're OK now!
@@brianna2352 thank you! Luckily it's a pretty rare fungus in most states.
I feel validated for all the things I shouted to the telly about that whole Joel and the bat and everything after. Also, there’s no guarantee that whatever they do to Ellie will actually make a cure so, easy trolley problem solution: don’t sacrifice the Ellie.
3:23 where would you find a clean towel in a post-apocalyptic world
I was screaming at Joel not to pull that bat out of his stomach. Great video.
Same
in the game he fell onto a spike so he wouldn't have had a choice
I loved the final episode; Ellie delivering Ellie was a nice touch!!
Can't wait for season 2 myself
Part 2 will be divided into season 2 and 3
@@proudbeanerii3810 I can see that, pt2 seemed to be much longer of a story 🤔👍
I think the foot wrapping was meant to be a cross bandage, or a figure 8 bandage, which does give some support. You can see him going around the ankle also. Still it's true it would be better to give more support like you said, but they didn't have much time.
Ellie's mother in the show is actually the original voice actor / mo-cap actor for Ellie in the video game. And the house they are showing is the home from the sequel of the video game. Very cool fan details they added
Which home from the sequel? I didnt recognize the house. I'm pretty sure it's not the farmhouse because the interior is different.
You’d think Hollywood would find medical personnel to consult on medical scenes by now. I think we deserve that. Stay happy and healthy too!
It’s a video game adaption you idiot. They were trying their best to recreate the game, not trying to create a new show.
Fr.
No because tmin a post apocalyptic world most people are dying from basic traumatic injuries
I mean, having a 14-year-old not knowing what to do in a medical emergency is just plain realistic. Like, of course she's going to try sowing him up. She's a kid, not a Doctor. Same with Joel trying desperately to save his daughter. He's utterly distraught, in shock and watching the person he loves most bleeding out in his arms. Same when he pulls out the broken bit of wood. If you look at his face, he's totally in shock and just doing it without thinking. You can make an argument for the Firefly hospital scene, but again, there's a chance that these were people who didn't even graduate medical school before the apocalypse - they could just be trying to cobble stuff together from leftover medical books they find.
Having the characters in these shows acting like professional doctors despite having no medical training or simply just being a kid, that would be super unrealistic. These videos are fun to watch and informative, but should not be allowed to influence actual storytelling.
The disease's name says it's in the brain. In the beginning of the game, you can find a note from doctors explaining Cordyceps Brain Infection (CBI), and it says for the incubation :
" After initial infection, the parasite travels to the host's brain over a period of one to two days. The incubation concludes when the cordyceps has taken over all major bodily functions of the host (Stage one CBI) ". So there was no surprise on my part that Joel and Marlene knew that.
In the game there are xrays that show the progression of the infection and how it grows in the brain. So Joel sees those in the games and then says that line afterwards a few hours later. But in the series maybe they had people studying it sooner and made it common knowledge.
I have no problem believing this fact can be common knowledge in a QZ. It's been 20 years.
This game was my outlet in 2020. Trying to survive chaotic emergency department night shifts during a global pandemic. Then go home and destress trying to survive in a post apocalyptic global pandemic.
A head mirror is mostly used for examination of the ear, nose and throat. It comprises a circular concave mirror, with a small hole in the middle, and is attached to a head band. The mirror is worn over the physician's eye of choice, with the concave mirror surface facing outwards and the hole directly over the physician's eye, providing illumination like a ring light. Wikipedia
I'm not a doctor but I laughed at the scene where Ellie just sews up Joel's wound.
You laughed? That's one of the most emotional moments in the show.
It had me shaking my head.
@@BrendanBeckett Nah bro I'm traumatized 💀💀💀
I remember saying to the tv What is she doing??? He has internal injuries!!
@@p-__ bro wtf-
On the brain surgery part. EXACTLY!!! There are so many steps to do before removing the brain. Also why would you choose the option that would 100% kill the one chance to find a cure as your first option?!?!? Ellie wasnt dying and she’s only 15. They had time!!
they are trying to use 'implied time flow' they had X amount of time before the show even started to have all this research on the Cordyceps, so they are using that implied knowledge to justify the surgery, which was really only added because it gave Joel an excuse to wipe them out.
@@KnightShadowsong Still doesn't make sense though, if they knew Ellie's resistance is unique. why outright kill her then and there? that's the main underlying issue why this has been discussed for a long time, sure they had medical records of people infected with the cordyceps, but we're talking about an individual that is possibly immune/resistant to the cordyceps someone that is alive and well without showing signs that she may be infected whatsoever. so It doesn't make sense to have a conclusion to dissect Ellie without further study of this individual. emphasis on the individual.
@@johnP0908 The logic they used in the game was they needed a sample of the cordycepts that lived in the brain stem. I'm assuming because the fungus there was sending the 'stop' signal to the other types, but that's just my best guess.
16:45 This is why the game version is sm better and feels less rushed, it makes much more sense to remove the cordycepts to examine them first and only recour to surgery as a last resource
In both the game and the show, they know a lot about the infected and when the infection spreads to change them into different types. It's not a big leap for me to assume that they know that the fungus grows in the brain. There are notes in the game about infected being studied pre transformation.
They also have x-rays of the cordyceps growing in the brain, at least in the game.
Yeah it’s also been 20 years since the outbreak plenty of time to study it
If I was Joel, I wouldn't sacrifice Ellie either. For two reasons:
1) They didn't get consent from her, they just took her and put her under anesthesia! If she wants to sacrifice herself, that's her call and not Marlene's nor anyone else's, but she has to be informed that she's not going to survive and that the chances of actually producing a cure are slim. After being properly informed, if she still wants to do it, then ok.
And 2) they're not even sure if this is going to work because, as you said, they didn't do any frigging tests! They didn't take any blood samples, didn't make any brain scans... nothing. I understand this is a post-apocalyptic situation, but how do they expect to produce the cure if they don't have any equipment? If they have the equipment to produce it, they have the equipment to run some tests. If not, Ellie dying is all for nothing.
im pretty sure in the game they did some testing also there would have been no real way to distribute a vaccine and how many doeses would they be able to make?
Consent isn’t really that important when over a million ppl is in danger if they don’t do the surgery…..
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@@nightlol111 Ok, then next time you go under the knife, hope you don't mind if the doctor extracts a kidney. Little Timmy needs one to live, and you have two, so who cares, right?
Also, how are they planning on mass-producing and distributing the vaccine? That people are in danger regardless if they do the surgery or not.
@@redpandasarecool3 Haven't played the game, so can't comment on that, but yeah, they don't have any real way to mass produce and distribute the vaccine. It's all for nothing.
I am a pre-med student and the scene at 2:46 I exactly said the same that Why is He pulling out he doesn't have to touch it until help arrives (which won't) or until he gets to a comfort zone!
Obviously it is a TV show, but I think a lot of time has gone by from Joel being stabbed with the bat and when they got to the concussion grenade scene. I think it is really poetic that the voice and performance actor for Ellie (Ashley Johnson) gave birth to the character in the game, but is now physically giving birth to Ellie in the show. I find it pretty deep thinking about it like that.
It's been months. It was winter when he was injured and it's now Spring at least when they get the grenade. So he is healed.
Something that I know others have talked about is the "surgeons" age. We only briefly see him but he's roughly 50. So that means he had just been exiting med school when everything went down. How qualified would he be to do brain surgery? I'd love to hear your opinion on this.
He has a bachelor's degree in biology, so he's not a surgeon at all, and is not qualified to perform brain surgery, I do believe he practiced surgery during the apocalypse but other than that he has no real experience
@@lrsb1678 "done surgeries in the apocalypse" does not equal to "I can do a successful surgery on the brain".
It takes approximately 14 to 16 years of medical study and practice for someone to be a barely certified neurosurgeon. I say "barely certified" because he/she would have only had sufficient experience in properly controlled settings and not crazy settings with many emergent variables like what neurosurgeons deal with in general.
@@SableLeaf okay just humor my out there thinking. Could we make the jump that given this terrible fast acting infection that's rambling the whole world very quickly, maybe focus would have shifted to primarily working on anything that might help with this infection, a cure, how it works, etc etc etc. So a person in the field, even indirectly, might receive education and experience with these specific issues after this apocalypse begins.
The stun grenade incident happens weeks if not months after the stab wound. They're in a totally new area and all the snow has gone. If they're using similar locations and timescales to the game they've covered about 500 miles on foot and its gone from winter to spring. Estimating 10 miles per day (assuming Joel's recovery, finding food, shelter, not having smooth terrain, etc) thats at least 50 days.
In the game it was better explained that they were harvesting every bit of Ellie to dissect and study with no idea if they could actually make a cure which is why I felt the trolley problem wasn’t really in effect. They were mad scientists at that point to me
Where in the game did they explain they were going to dissect her? I must have missed it the first 3 playthroughs and didn't catch anything like that in Part2 either. Was it in a journal or something?
Dude I literally just played the game and this was not what was said.
And mad scientists? Really? Killing one girl to create the only potential there will ever be for a cure to be made makes them crazy?
@@mr.stuffdoer8483 Yes it does, which is why we don't allow murdering people for science. Also it's not literally spelled out but in both the campus and the hospital there are clear indications that they've experimented on people before, including killing somewhat immune people in the hopes of making a vaccine.
@@mr.stuffdoer8483 And that's not to mention the fact that they don't even have the most basic idea of how to handle fungi, or how to create a vaccine, I guess that makes them more stupid than crazy though xD
@@mr.stuffdoer8483 yes, it's ridiculous to kill her. While she is alive she can continuously provide blood, white cells and even living fungus... Killing her right away made no sense. No way organic material would last too long and if they couldn't find a cure before whatever is left of Ellie expires then everything would be for nothing... But I guess is more of a plot issue than the mad scientist themselves. Maybe they went directly for the kill because they were so desperate to find a solution.. either way, they weren't making the right call
It was shown in episode 2 that they were studying the woman’s body. So I think its safe to assume they ran tests on people in the very beginning
Not on an immune person though.
@@betteryourlife865 Yep. In the Last of Us (2013/PS3) at the Surgeon's recorder (wikipedia). They described Ellie as one of a kind.
Fireflies only ever tested on infected people or monkeys at the Colorado University lab w/ quote 'their eyes are still red' & aren't immune.
It is still dumb for the Fireflies to risk Ellie/the only immune Cordyceps host for risky fatal brain surgery. And they only did 1-day of testing w/ her.
No blood/CSF culture, no plasma antibody/passive vaccine, why no biopsy/CT scan. They didn't even know if the Cordyceps survive outside of Ellie. Didn't even theorize that maybe Ellie's offspring (genes, host factor) was the cure, etc...
OMG. this is a dream come true, my favorite TH-camr, and my favorite show and game combined!!??!! Loves this❤❤❤❤
It was probably not known when the game was made, but it was found that cordyceps doesn't actually enter and grow in the brain of the insects it infects as originally thought. It is actually more frightening than that, it spread through the muscular system and connect themselves through a complex communication system. They effectively cut off the brain from controlling the body. The host know what is going on but is trapped in it's own body it can't control.
That is terrifying tbh
Literally thought about your advice against pulling out impaled objects when I first saw Joel get stabbed.
In the game, it was better explained why they knew it grew in the brain as players with a keen eye and who love the lore could sift through medical documents and scan print outs strewn around the offices in the hospital while on Joel's rampage. I suspect that they presented the characters' theories in such a wild manner probably had something to do with time constraints or to keep the viewers engaged.
I had surgery recently and lost a decent amount of blood (no where near what Joel would have lost) and was/an anaemic and I couldn’t even walk to the toilet without fainting. Lasted 2 weeks!
I appreciate that the actual Ellie actress came back to play Ellie’s mom. Gotta love her
Both my parents are in the medical field and they taught me what things to do when injured and when Joel got stabbed I just kept yelling at the screen to not remove it
Another thought about the Ellie’s birth is that the infection flowed through the cord blood, which may have some benefit vs directly being bitten. Stem cells and such. Still a stretch, but workable from a fiction standpoint
That’s what I was thinking too. Maybe it being filtered through the placenta was what ultimately kept her safe. Definitely a unique situation for a pregnant woman to get bit then right away give birth and then have someone keep the baby safe and have them grow up.
I read that the cordyceps that infect insects and such, actually grow in their muscles rather than their brains. Although I understand the show's / game's choice of going for brain control, it would make Sam's question about it "being you inside" even more horrific if it were muscle control rather than brain control.
But the mushroom starts to come out of the head, if you search pictures of insects with this fungus you'll see it comes out of their heads
The bloom erupts after the insect has died, though, & the fungus feeds on the insides as it blooms. I’ve heard the same as the OP; it doesn’t infect the brain til the end. But the game/show is make-believe & probably has a different species that evolved just for humans.
that's an even more horrifying version of it if you think about it, imagine being trapped in your own body and unable to stop yourself from turning into a savage killing machine
It's post-apocalyptic they have all the nice tools and stuff that you naming, you work with what you got
The funniest part of Joel's stab wound to me, was Ellie suturing up his wound that was no longer bleeding externally. 😂
People forget she's a kid, that's the whole point of her trying to do the blood transfusion, trying to just stab the insulin in the wound, trying to suture the wound. Shes just a kid and thinks all of this stuff is going to work.
@@terrydevlin3486 exactly, that was my first thought. It was literally a miracle of the script that Joel survived. Lol
@@gabythewolfyaoi I don't understand why they didn't though of another for Joel to survive his knife injuries.
Like be hit, differently like, something less gruesome but more believable.
I don't think the audience is that stupid to believe it would of work.
I literally shouted “Don’t pull the baseball bat out!!” when I first saw the college scene. I’ve watched enough of your videos and researched for my stories that I know some things.
Also, literally a week after TLOU premiered, there were reports about fungus adapting the exact way the scientist in episode 1 did. The article went viral because of the horrendous timing. Not the zombie fungus, but several that could cause serious damage because of climate change:
In the second game (spoiler) there’s a scene when Ellie goes back to the hospital and you can access her documents from the initial surgery. She’s had some MRI scans and it states that they gave her neurofen and Flagyl. Curious to see what you think of these findings
As a medical student I had the same questions and this video made me feel validated lol
As a retired gymnast, the “ankle taping “ cracked me up 😂
I watched this show with my parents and omg from watching your videos the first aid scenes were so infuriating. Like pulling out the bat and him being fine after no surgery within like 5 days was insane to me.
16:10 because Fedra had Cordyceps pamphlets all over his QZ about how it grows and the stages of the infection
Fun Fact, Ashley Johnson who plays Ellie's Mom is the Voice actress who played Ellie in the game
SPOILER ALERT IF HAVEN'T SEEN THE SHOW-
Yes! And Troy Baker who voiced Joel in the game, played David's #2 (can't remember the character's name) he's the one that Ellie killed when David and he had Ellie in the room on the table and were going to kill & cut her apart for food. I LOVE that they put both the game voice actors Joel & Ellie, in the show! We're huge fans of Troy Baker & Ashley Johnson as voice actors! Loved the show!
@@OmANnIe Kathleen Coghlan’s right hand man that has helping her maintain the captives was the voice of Tommy in the game too 😊
Yay for Ashley!! ❤❤🎉🎉
fun fact! they used a real hospital to shoot the hospital scenes. It was in Grande Prairie, AB (my hometown) we had just switched over to our new hospital and it was great timing with filming!! its the QEll Hospital and is now still being put to good use with other types of care now
When I’ve watch the episode where Joel gets stabbed, I immediately thought of Dr Mike screaming: DON’T PULL IT OUT!!
Haha 2:57
Excellent, full descriptions and explanations about any medical issue mentioned here. I love this channel so much!
I just about lost it when she gave him the antibiotic, but then I was like oh yeah that is probably how a kid would think they'd work haha.
That’s actually a great spot for an IV. Antecubital ones fail more often or are positional because the catheter bends along with your arm so some patients end up needing to keep their arm straightened out during infusions.
just a heads up, the scene with the concussion grenade is MONTHs after he was stabbed. I think it might have just been an accidental thing based on your train of thought at the time but figured i would point this out.
16:16 .... because you dont need to know about it ... in the series there were 20 years of people studing that fungus :S it just common sense that basic information is gonna be available .
I literally just learned how to render someone unconscious with a rear naked choke in martial arts class today. It’s interesting that I’m watching this after class and I totally agree with Dr Mike.
The pressure on the neck arteries, if applied correctly, is the most effective and fastest way to make them unconscious. You don’t need to do anything else except keep that pressure for at least 10 seconds, or sometimes less, until they go limp.
Obviously you don’t do this without proper self defense training & only if all other attempts to de-escalate have failed to get your attacker to stop their actions towards you have failed. Even when doing this in self defence or martial arts classes, you don’t apply hardly any pressure, because it’s dangerous. You want to keep your training partner safe and same thing when they are practicing on you, so you can keep working together next class. ❤
I was hoping Mike would catch that for the “surgery” where they have to go into her brain, Ellie was not prepped and sterilized at all, her hair was not clipped, no drape, she was not intubated. Whatever “drugs” they gave her through that mask would have worn off asap.
Also, it makes sense that they know it grows in the brain as they have been in it for 20 years. I’m sure they have learned at least a little something. I expected them to run some kind of blood work at least though 😅😅 I literally just finished the last episode before coming to watch this so it’s all fresh rn lol
The trolly problem was discussed in my philosophy class a few months ago and I think it'd be interesting to discuss it further with this sort of context cause we were using general baseline would you do blank if blank for the trolley problem. I'm personally partial to the relationship Joel and Ellie have so I lean that way emotionally but logically if the cure could work I say try it, but ONLY if Ellie gives her consent to the consequences. One of the big problems I had with the Fireflies was the fact that they didn't give Ellie a choice in whether or not she wanted to give her life for the cure. If Ellie agreed, it would be different, but because they didn't bother to ask her, I say Joel was justified in his saving Ellie.
5:44 "This does not destroy someone's neck. He moves his whole body around" So he was just cuddling him? 😂
Finally, the medical explanations I've been waiting for in weeks, esp when Joel got stabbed & passed out from internal hemorrhaging, which Ellie performed supernatural medical surgery & remedies.
7:55 Not Dr. Mike confirming that this could actually happen 😭😭😭 My anxiety rn 📈📈📈
We used that same ankle taping technique or a very similar one in baseball. Ive had a lot of rolled ankles and that was used to add stability so you could keep playing.
That scene with Bill and Frank broke my heart. It was so sad.
I would have loved for the show to expand the final episode. It would have made more sense if it took a year or so to conduct tests on Ellie to try to find a cure and have Joel stay there waiting for her to be released. It could be a montage where the scientists would try their best at finding a cure, only to fail and resort to carving out her brain as an act of desperation. It would also make Joel's actions more rational, as he would have waited a year only to learn that they were going to kill her for what is basically a fool's hope. Oh also it would make sense that he has the strength to take out the entire security force there since he at least recovered from his injuries
One of the most reliable and trusted doctor on earth. Thanks for being a great human doc Mike. Long live!
The leading theory in the game (by fans) is that Ellie was infected with a slightly different strain of cordyceps (militaris?). This strain is used in antifungal medication so could be that's what is preventing her from being infected with the "zombie" strain. Would also explain the labs results that she tests positive for cordyceps but just not the right strain and she has low white and red blood counts (medical documents shown in game)
2:05 he hasn’t found that training manual yet.
0:17 let's get ready to have some "fungi"