Balancing Age of Sigmar is more complicated than you think!?
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 16 ก.ย. 2024
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Join host Rob in this exciting video as he brings back the long-awaited Honest Wargamer stats! Check out the blog post on thehonestwargamer.com for all the images used in this video, available for download and sharing. Discover the methodology behind these Age of Siege events, featuring five round results from two-day events without heavy comp. Don't miss out, subscribe now for more exciting content!
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A huge thankyou to Rob ( not the one in the video ) and Tom for doing the data crunching and getting us back on track with awesome visuals
Thanks to both of them as well! The entire team is awesome
AOS escaped the "everyone plays Space Marines" meta which is great!
THE BEST NEWS
They made it everyone plays space marines on purpose and regretted it later
Thank fuck. I hope 40K gets their shit together and does something similar. I’m actually kinda sick of their constant space marine releases
@@philipbowles5397Space Marines have such a wide range of unit options that they at least go even in every meta, making them a good option for comp players and ppl who like list building. Also Marines allow for varied play style in that you can just paint them a custom scheme and choose a different faction of marine each time by swapping out a few models.
Wanna play a Dark Angels successor chapter instead of Ultramarines? Swap Guiliman for Lion El Johnson and now it plays differently.
@philipbowles5397 Honestly it's just the characters and lore that gets me interested in Space Marines. Sure, they might just be space knights, but a lot of interesting armies could be boiled down to that. Millitarum is just the Millitary, Soulblight Gravelords are just vampires, and Eldar are just space elves.
Ok right, I’m a Stormcast player, I’ve gotta say, seeing them with that meta rep… IS GREAT! It’s always good to see people actually going off into other armies, I may love Stormcast but I am so glad that AoS has finally gotten to where if I want to play I don’t have a 25-30% chance of a mirror match!
I think not having the space marine mets is so good
As a Sylvaneth player, i can say that the army can really fall apart when your magic doesn't work out. which makes them swing really hard from 5-0 to 0-5. Really depends on the mission and enemy armies. Thats why i am happy we got Belthanos now. He makes the army rely less on magic like Spiteswarm Hives and Warsong Bomb.
Especially missions...tournaments where there are no missions without neutral terrain are harder imho. Takes away from the mobility. Battleplans with terrain setup using the league rules can sometimes make it hard to pick overgrown terrain. And then you depend once again on casting...Aw. Wyldwoods
Furthermore, Battletactics are almost always a dice role that you can't really plan for to work every time
This is really good insight and I appreciate it
*obligatory alarielle is overcosted comment*
Verdant Blessing should be a Heroic Action!
Mmm....I don't belive Sylvaneth should rely on magic at all. I think that's the tricky part, do not count on it.
Besides, I also belive we are one of the best armies for scoring BTs, we have almost 6 good BTs in every game imho.
I think the majority of Sylvaneth players falls on "magic-must-work". I'm talking pre-Belthanos. The big bug helps a lot on this tho.
I’d love to see Slaves to Darkness get some help for units that go in other subfactions. The fact that the only “good” build is basically a meme (oops all Varanguard), and an expensive meme at that ($100 for 3 fancy knights is insanity). Help the demon prince. Help the manticore options. Etc. Or just buff the subfaction abilities for everything but KotET. 🤷🏻♂️
I agree. That's what we need to talk about. The internal balance
I play STD since february. I hate KotET build... No fun and braindead...
So many models and only play Varanguard? So fucking sad...
RIP Dispoilers. Hopefully Demon Prince will get fixed and will become fun.
We fucking love you Rob! By "we" I mean, all of us who watch! you're a fucking legend and we appreciate you and the team! Keep it the fuck up bud! You're killing it!
Oh man..I can't tell you how happy this makes me!!! Thanks!!!
Can you bring back the most popular units of each faction table? That was helpful for new players trying to evaluate what’s good or bad!
I love Rob and Warhammer Rob and things that you do. I quite literary clapped when you said that stats are back. That means two things - first, our amazing tool is back, and more importantly, Warhammer Rob is back! Lovely work!
We back back
well done to Rob, the other Rob. All the data looks great. Easy to read and understand. A true pillar of the community
Thanks so very much
Outstanding work on the data visualisation work. 👏
Thankyou I'll tell Tom who made it
FEC and CoS probably will see spikes up in meta rep as their new releases percolate through the community.
It's about the production meta
Been playing Nighthaunt since their first Battletome. Went to a tournament last month ending with 2/0/3, running Scarlet Doom. What I noticed in my games is just the sheer amount of mortal wounds. I combo up with multiple -1 to wounds and the Krulghast -1 damage, together with ethereal does mean I can bounce high rend/ high damage armies. Unfortunately it doesn't really matter against most armies that can put out enough mortal wounds to delete a ghosty boi unit from range and score a battle tactic. I'm fine with Nighthaunt having a weakness to mortal wounds, but when most armies have multiple ways to throw them out, I think I'd rather a 4+ against mortal wounds than a 4+ ethereal save. This year also saw the loss of my beloved Mourngul, which provided a great debuff but also allowed my army a source of monstrous rampages (outside of allied Soulblight). Couple with the fact that some key units, bladegheists, harrdians are suffering due to their 1inch range weapons on a 32mm base. I still enjoy playing the army but there seems that some quality of life changes need to added.
1. Bring back the galletian veterans for battleline to fight in 2 ranks
2. Change the Discorporate command ability to work like Seal of Shyish(spell), since I can't use mystic shield or all out defense.
3. Either give Nighthaunt back the Mourngul/ monster, or give us a ability to haunt faction terrain features like smash to rubble (since currently we can't destroy heardstones or loonshrines)
4. Better written Nighthaut battle tactics.
Love the show Rob, and I hope this gave you some insight on Nighthaunt.
I appreciate it a lot. A thoughtful insight I've taken to heart thankyou
Thanks Robs. Great show, great guys. Thank you for your constant contributions guys. They are noticed and appreciated. If you guys didn't exist, none of this would be mentioned and it is so important.
Thanks for that! Honestly i really appreciate the sentiment
Thanks for the stats. Glad to see seraphim are getting the attention their book deserves. Wish the coalest were a bit better though.
I really wish dinos were better
They need to fix Terradons and Rippers, their rules are as they say in England, a joke ting bruv
Thanks Rob. I still want to start a Sons of Behemet, Nighthaunt, Sylvaneth, or Nurgle Army. In that order. I don't care about win rates, I just like the models. I like Soulblight Gravelords and Ogar Mawtribes, but everyone in my area is running them, and the stats tie in.
My friend I have no better advice than play the army you like
While it's often used as a curse word, a lot of the problems that exist in balancing down to the sub faction and units chosen numbers is ideal for a data science/AI solution.
I've started a little data modelling for this by trying to aggregate items by a "weight". Things like "how do I move kings gitz win percent down 2% but not affect Troggs" by looking at the battle scrolls that either don't show up or have low representation in Troggs and seeing what the cost difference is to either force a unit drop in 3+ win lists or having to sub a less optimal unit in for points reasons
I often feel we dont have the number of reps for this data but im always interested to see it
Thanks Rob, Tom and Rob for getting this all done again!
There were a few data points that I’d like to be able to dig into more or see discussed more, but one that stood out for me was Ogors meta rep by month - it’s basically halved. That seems like it needs more attention.
The other big stand out was KO’s most popular faction is doing worse than the army as a whole, that seems like it needs more attention as well.
On the NH front, playing into them, I find them to be a surprisingly fragile army that struggles to pass DPT checks. After that I’d need a deeper dive on their various performances to get a really good idea of where they need help. But giving all their non-behemoth units a rule that makes all their melee attacks 2” would be an interesting step and help some of their sub factions in particular.
I did bring it up in the video!
Amazing!! Great job!! Top notch!!🎉🎉🎉
Appreciate all the work you guys do for the community🙏🏼🙏🏼🙏🏼
I appreciate the support and comments. Means loads to me
Brilliant work from you all on these stats, thank you for putting in what I can imagine is a lot of time. Not the heroes we deserve but the ones we need.
Very much appreciated
The spread of data and attention to detail here is quite amazing, thank you for your work :)
Our pleasure
Stellar stuff, mate! Love the content!
I super appreciate you telling me so. Takes a lot to get up and confidence boost a creator so thanks
Such great charts/graphs. Shoutout to stats Rob
He says thanks a lot!!!
Cheers lads, this info is ace. Feeling sorry for my nighthaunt but im sure with some tweaks we'll get there!
So glad that Stats Centre is back! 😍 When will it be updated on the homepage?
Updated now
Fantastic breakdown. Highly appreciated!
I appreciate the comment of support!!
That's really impressive. Now I gotta hunt down a KO list and some BoK lists to see where they differ from mine 😄
You are impressive!!!
Thank you better Bob
Bob in da house
I loved the visuals! Great work on the video. Why cant our dinos be just a little better?
Yeah I think that's sad. Not sure why tbh?
thank you Rob. You're a legend
You are a legend but thanks for the support
Nighthaunt have the inherent problem of low-rend in the army. Mix that with no access to roar or a way to stop heroic reactions and all our defence. We just don't have a reliable way of punching through plus 1 save with how swingy rolling in 8 is for the charge. Its just random and unreliable in a game that rewards consistency.
Slaanesh i just get how that is so low, good book tactics, goid movement, free grand strat.
I've had solid positive win rates at multiple big events.
Unforgiving sure, and can be rough on 3 objective battleplans.
Really good thoughts especially the zero monsters. Thanks for the input
Same i don't understand why Slaanesh is so low... Too weak against top meta army like big waagh and KO?
As a flesh eaters and Idoneth Player. I gotta say.
I didn't know the win rate was that low. And I say that despite losing over half my games.
But considering a recent release. I might just eat well soon.
Idoneth is high with a certain build!
@thehonestwargamerstreams That's true. They can do pretty well.
But only with very specific builds against very specific enemies with specific builds, too.
Whereas Flesh eaters weren't ever bad per say. They also weren't generally exceptional. And a lack of battle tactic variety and quality doesn't help.
I knew they weren't usually the best. But I had no Idea they were some of the lowest win ratio's in game.
Another very interesting video, with very good points being made 👌
With the new Gorewarden and other FEC range additions i think we might be in for a surprise rise in some nasty tp builds that could shake up their stats.
Warden + morbegh tp and charging obj is really scary obsec.
Ghouls are also nuts with new stats and FEC has battleline that can fight over them with the new cryptguard.
Your work is:
Detailed
Thoughtful
Insane
Amazing
Appreciated
Thank you!
Oh haha that's so good thankyou!!
I really enjoyed this!
Big Waagh is super hard to balance, because everything they do will also affect the three other warclans. The easiest fix (but I feel like it wouldn't be the only one needed) would be to keyword lock the two orcs pity tactics behind the general. Therefore, Big waagh armies qould only have access to one of the two pity tactics, just like Kruleboyz and Ironjawz (sorry Bonesplitterz, just close your eyes and go to sleep, you'll roam free in the Old World when you wake up).
It's a very tricky army to balance I agree but some units could get points reductions. Even +save based on all.later armies havjng recursion!!
Id personally like seeing 32mm base infantry get their galatian veteran ability back. Suddenly Boc could run gors/tzgors, std could run warriors, dot could do acolytes/tzgors etc.
Id like to see fight in two ranks back too
I’m such a coalesced stan and always feel sad when I see just overall Seraphon data that hides how poorly it performs. Battle tactics aren’t the easiest and the monster’s scrolls aren’t great. Plus monsters are over costed. Glad to see a light shined on Coalesced. Makes my 2-2-1 performance at LGT with my Saurus not seem so bad 😆
Coalesced needs help!
Enjoyed this, i like getting granular
Like the crumbs behind the couxh
great analytics , great video, but i don't agree on one point concerning the big win ratio factions. i don' t think GW should nerf them, it's always a source of frustration for the players, they should boost, or keep on decreasing point cost for weaker factions.
It's just my point of view, thanks again
Honestly I think this is as important if not more important than nuking the top so I agree
This is a fantastic video. Fabulous stats.
Seems like the game is in a healthy state.
Thanks so much. The team are great at putting this together!!
amazing video and amazing graphs as always
Really appreciate the kind comments!!!
Great video - very interesting. Wondering if getting 2 points for Battle Tactics that require killing an enemy unit and 1 point for those that don't would be a good idea.
Engagement is so important
Rob as a Big Waaagh/Ironjawz player I think the way to fix BW is to make the two new battletactics general locked, like the rest of the BT in the time. So you can get either Dats our turf! OR Sneak up, not both. This has zero impact on pure IJ or Kruleboyz.
Thank you Warhammer Rob!
He's the best
Thanks Robs
It's really appreciated. What army do you play?
@@thehonestwargamerstreams Just had a two year break and just bought all the models I need for soulblight and the classic archaon 3x varanguard and summoner on disk
Thanks to Rob (not honest wargamer) and Tom for all the data and slides. Thanks to Rob (yes, the honest wargamer) for presenting these and giving us your thoughts. I like this new way of presentation but I do miss being able to tinker and filter myself in the BI pages. These Battleplan WR are great to see, if your faction does poorly on a certain battleplan you can think on what you can build or do to turn it more into your faction's favour.
I do think the most interesting conversation, but maybe not as useful as helping NH here, is balancing out WAAGH/IJ/KB. Just due to the interconnection that they have.
We back baybee
We trying
This is big news!
You are big news x
Someone forward this to GW.
I agree that the game currently is not very engaging and I think GW has done this because it's easier than doing the real work of actually being creative.
Bashing aside, I think that generally speaking, almost all maneuvers should be layered. What I mean by that is, battle tactics and Grand Strategies specifically, should have either, 2 tiers, or, 2 objectives.
Obviously alot of them do, but there's also alot that don't and I think those are the ones the GW needs to clean up.
My version of Grand Strategies has two layers, one major goal that scores you 3 points and a minor goal that scores you 1.
Thanks for the comment
I don't think coalesced are bad at all - must just be the 'dino purists' bringing that win rate down. -1 to damage is so effective into the right match up,especially against elite armies with 2 damage attacks (my poor varanguard recently struggled really badly to kill anything). But....I suppose there are a lot of armies out there who have lots of 1 damage attacks who don't care.
Appreciate your work though Rob + Rob!
It's all interesting data to start more conversations
Idk, i play Nighthaunt and it seems like people just don't want to try new lists. I'm having a great time and about 50% winrate with Quicksilver or even Emerald. Seems like if everyone is just building Scarlet, and those are doing the representation, it mostly means that Scarlet builds suck.
buff kruleboyz
that is all
see ya!
Buff BUFF LADS
On the point about sylvaneth, I’ve been in a lot of non-hobby stores in the UK that stock some GW (house of Fraser weirdly enough, and obvs Game) alongside board games and D&D.
They don’t stock much (usually 3-5 different kits) but I ALWAYS see either Vanguard boxes for Sylv, or the old Start Collecting box. The only other thing I consistently see in there are Mortek guard, funnily enough.
Extremely anecdotal, but I do think sylvaneth sells well, which eventually has a knock-on effect to meta rep - despite them being quite fiddly to play.
Yeah that is fascinating. What's the main products they stock!
I am looking to see the difference in FEC with new book and models and to see how there stat’s change
They will go up a lot
will bet youskaven will actually get nerfed because plague censer bearers are way overstatted for their cost and bells might see a nerf. skaven despite their low winrate have an amazing list that doesnt see much play but an expert can take it to worlds and finish second :)
I feel like the more faction focused channels should each take up the mantle to develop the battle plan data for their factions from this chart
I agree. That would be awesome to see
Thx Rob & Tom
They are the best
Thanks the real rob for the Data and the cool Rob for the Video
Our pleasure
This video made me realise that maths is cool.
Hahaha thankyou!!
sad to see FEC so low, hopefully the new book really boosts them.
Hoping Beasts get some points changes so some other builds get good! This is SnitBag btw 😘
I hope so too. Drogors down!? ALOT!
im a new player and started playing cities of sigmar, imagine how Im feeling right now...
The army has just had a new book so the winrate is not representative of how they can do as a faction. Imo they are good and you'll see that from next month's show
I don't think gw nerfs on feelings. I think they nerf based on buisness. Nerfing the army whit the highest win rate makes sense for balance reasons. But nerfing the most played army so ppl switch makes buisness sense.
I really don't think that's what happens. I know the balance team. They do care but it's based on bata data
Justice for Coalesced!
Dinos forever
When subfaction winrates were talked about, you said Jaws of mork was at 47% but kings gitz was 54% where was the 54% stated. That part of the info is not reflected in your stats, just mos popular subfaction% vs all other subfaction%. Wouldn't it make sense to show the subfaction with highest winrate on the actual stats?
It would but gitz probably needs a deeper dive. The more popular sub faction is normally the best performing so that's good aberration to look at
OMG, what is happening in The Frigid Zephyr with Stormcast. 21% win rate on that mission :D
Stormcast often rely on long range shooting from Vanguard-Raptors, and the Frigid Zephyr mission has an effect where enemies aren't visible outside of 12 inches. Being unable to snipe enemy power pieces early can spell ruin for Stormcast.
@@AGloriusCrushingz Oh ok, so a jank mission rule invalidating one of the few ways to play an army effectively.
Its just a low pick rate for plan and likely not many games were played on it. Id say its false or noisy data
I play khorne 👹so good to see them doing well
I'm glad
GW should nuke Battle Tactics from orbit when designing 4th. Its the only way to be sure.
Yeah i think has to be the course taken but im not sure if they will?
Is there a fix for the Mission Selection issue? Unless GW starts modifying missions on Battlescroll Updates (unlikely they have the stats to see the issues) or TO comp?
T.Os just use the data
Who is he talking about around 9:00?? Can't understand a word😅😅
Dude Chaos is so busted they have so much BS that isn't fair when Order has nothing good
what do you mean tzeentch isn't fun to play ;( Respectfully, flinging spells everywhere and summoning a billion Lords of Change is awesome :)
i played them for over a year and its hard to build outside of that
Really kinda sad for me, I played a couple 1000 point games with Sylvaneth and really enjoyed the playstyle. Played a couple TTS games of the new AoR and still enjoyed it even though I lost pretty hard.
I have ~1100$ of built and unpainted/unbuilt yet Sylvaneth as I just bought into the faction to know that showing up to an event with them will be a crazy uphill battle even if I get better at them is kinda ... meh
This does happen and then it all changes. This is how GW games work. It's very valid to feel put off though and I'm sorry your hobby isn't a source of joy. That sucks
@@thehonestwargamerstreams Nah, still very much is, I adore painting my trees. So the hobby aspect is very much still there for me! Just might focus on playing 40k for the moment
As an Ironjawz fan, I just hope the nerfs to BW won't be even worse for IJ. BW just shouldn't exist. It's a delicate balancing that needs to be done and I'm worried GW will just vomit random point tweaks and it'll affect everything in the worst kind of ways.
I hope they understand what to do
Now I want to do Fyre slayers. The unpopular naked Dwarves
They are actually super fun
@@thehonestwargamerstreams is there any chance of you doing a review or tier type ranking of FS? Be greatly appreciated.
Maybe just get rid of ironjaws and kruleboyz. Make it all Orruks and let those be suballiegence.
I think the general being the one that gains access to the battle tactics so an iron jaws general doesn't get krulebiyz ones
I'm a long term gitz player and I'm here to say tourists go home! You're bringing the nerf hammer down on players who had to endure having the worst army for 3.5 years! Where is your humanity!!
Buff troggs!
The Nighthaunt are still in such a sad state. No meta rep, horrid win rate. GW please... At least my sub-faction is slightly better.
Yeah I agree. Night haunt need love
Thanks Rob! No, not you Rob, the other Rob😉
He's the better Rob
What is the skaven build that is broken? Don’t say clanrats and plague furnace
Screaming Bell needs readjusting
Are there any stats for which army has the best battle tactics for their battletome?
Sadly no we would need a score tracker
So what im hearing as a mid tier player.......is im supposed to have a khorne tattoo
Get two! One on each butt cheek
All those SBGL "fans" bringing out their dead.
NATE!!!!!
Once again, KO being on top shows that the season is bad.
KO are so good because they score so easily!
@@thehonestwargamerstreams and they are fast and rather easy to play.
@@francoissavard5893easy to play ? What ?
Double turn, double shooting phase, not fun at all.
I patiently wait for hydration, but still throwing a comment for the algorithm. Sincerely, the homies
On it now