Is Tesla's Structural Battery Repairable?
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 6 เม.ย. 2023
- This is one of our favorite videos, when two respected EV engineers get together, and discuss the new Tesla 4680 structural "Pink" battery pack, whether it is destined for the crusher if it fails, or repairable in aftermarket.
Initial conclusions, after a Munro Live teardown, was that this expensive main battery pack becomes a reclamation project for recyclers if it fails.
This video presents excerpts from a Pete Gruber and Sandy Munro Podcast, in which ideas were discussed, outlining possible repair paths.
#ev #grubermotors #tesla #batteries #elon #pinkbattery #structuralbattery #4680 #munrolive #sandymunro #teardowntitan
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Pete Gruber is the visionary behind the Gruber companies. As CEO, he brings 40 years of business development expertise, combined with a strong engineering background, and a passion for all things hi-tech and automotive, he has become one of the global leaders ushering in sustainable energy usage, and planet saving initiatives.
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Hats off to Gruber motors for their ingenuity, persistence and tenacity for repairing those Tesla cars.👍
Pete's got a great voice and a lot of knowledge! Easy to listen to.
and hats off to Gruber for shutting up the ICE crowd on Facebook when they say something uneducated related to EVs 🤣
Compared to Carl Medlock and sons Gruber is one of the biggest mass murderers of Tesla Roadsters with 2 seperate factory fires..
Munro doesn't care much about repairability. Profit and margins are more important.
I agree with him that if you reduce the number of connections and components, you increase reliability. But if you're unlucky, you can't replace the failed module, so you throw away the entire pack. Unless Tesla found a way to "isolate" the bad cells.
But I guess the point is you will be unlucky so few times that while you do lose the pack you don't lose very many packs and it will be rare. So from the customer's point of view they won't really care if there is a failure if the pack is covered under a 8 year/100,000 mile warranty. If these packs are really reliable then you will have to have won the jackpot to be a customer that has a pack failure outside of warranty. That customer won't be happy but those will be a very tiny number of customers. And likely by the time this happens in 10 years from now in 2032 pack costs will be very much lower in cost.
@@flipadavis bull. All batteries go bad. A bad internal part on one batch and it is gone. It is bad design and Tesla will be forced to change it like the phone manufacturers are being made to make the devices repairable. Just as a reference, a whole Q of Model 3 Performance production in 2021 had bad packs because of faulty modules and they are facultying one by one slowly and Tesla is hardly keeping up with the replacements. Now imagine you have to replace the whole pack.
I'm convinced, there'll be a battery replacement program at Tesla in a couple of years that doesn't cost a fortune because you'll be able to sell your broken battery to Tesla
When you say: "But if you're unlucky" The goal is NOT to rely on luck! think about it...
Its like using the airplane instead of driving. When a plane crashes, it is bad luck because there will be few survivors if at all. Yet, a lot of us prefer to fly than drive.
2:40 "... one cell out of the pack ... now you have to throw away the whole pack..."
This is why it is important to be serviceable. It is like an ICE engine with a worn alternator belt and replacing that whole engine.
The technology looks so crude and bodged in that a single battery is not possible but just wire together a load of little batteries. One fails and it is dud. We are rushing out of fossil fuels when we are just not ready. You would think it would be possible to split these in to at least modular packs and replace the failed one. The problem is these electric cars are unaffordable so they have to be made cheap, simple and disposable and the latter loads the cost on to the consumer and environment.
@@michaeld5888 THIS IS CUTTING EDGE TECHNOLOGY. WHAT IS CRUDE IS OIL WASTING 30% OF ITS ENERGY ON HEAT (NO GO JUST HEAT) WHAT IS CRUDE IS TAKING CARBON OUT OF THE GROUND AND PUMPING IT INTO OUR ATMOSPHERE. WHAT IS CRUDE IS BANKING ON AN ENERGY (OIL)THE WILL EVENTUALLY CEASE TO EXIST. WHAT IS CRUDE IS THE LIVES LOST FIGHTING OVER OIL. IN MERE DECADES THE TRANSITION WILL COMPLETED AT A COST LESS THAN WHAT IT WOULD BE TO MAINTAIN EXISTING OIL INFRASTRUCTURE OVER THE SAME PERIOD OF TIME. MICHEAL THERE WILL BE NOTHING TO FIGHT OVER AND ONLY THEN WILL PEOPLE KNOW WHAT CHEAP ENERGY IS. COME WITH US AND HAVE CLEAN ABUNDANT RENEWABLE CHEAP ENERGY (AND A CHEAP CAR THAT GOES 300 MILES ON 15$ OF ELECTRICITY -OR BETTER-).
BIG OIL AND THE PETRO DOLLAR ARE ON THEIR WAY OUT. IT IS HAPPENING NOW. WE ARE SO FORTUNATE TO SEE THE PASSING OF ICE.
WHY ARE YOU DEVOTED TO POLLUTING, HIGH PRICED MODES OF ENERGY AND PIECE OF SHAT CARS THAT ARE BUILT TO FALL APART FAST AND RUN ON 6$/GAL GAS?
@@michaeld5888 That is what all the other manufacturers are doing and that should be the norm and requirement that the packs are repairable at the cell level.
Ev's are an environmental scam
@@michaeld5888 That is negatory sir, we are not "not ready", it is a conscious choice of Tesla that moving forward they build their packs as sealed and unserviceable as possible. Except for that, there is already a growing industry of EV battery repairmen who can do exactly this job for cheap, on all continents.
Why old Priuses and Leaf are still driving on streets after so many years!
Because the poor people who bought these cars second hand can repair cheaply the battery by switching the bad cell and not buying a new battery that cost similar to the whole car.
why are those two guys wearing shades if they are in a studio ?
you can see how many lights are pointed at them in the studio if you look closely at the reflection in the glasses. could be light sensitivity. or maybe they are prescription. or maybe because they dont wanna show that they are reading from a teleprompter. or maybe all 3 lol who knows I want a pair tho
@@evfan6037 haha true... or maybe they just wanna look cool
They are blind 🧑🏼🦯
Because they think they look cool
They are agents
Shout out to Pete Gruber and Mark Schaeffner,...i can only imagine your interest interest in talking to this guy.
YOU are all LEADERS to Me.
Very fascinating discussion about EV batteries and this is where the industry is headed.
Tesla used to repurpose modules that failed and reuse the good cells into powerwalls. Not sure now with the new 4680 but I imagine development is already underway to utilize those cells as well.
(BEFORE watching)
Are you asking the wrong question?
.
Try
1) "Are the cells individually fused?"
.
2) "If they are, and one cell blows it's fuse, what is the effect on the pack?
.
3) "Are the electronics outside the sealed "battery box" more likely to cause problems and how repairable is that section?"
(Ref the Power electronics in the penthouse)
No, it’s the right question. Is it repairable?
@@oggyoggy1299 NO NOR SHOULD IT BE
I really appreciate this discussion and the practical perspectives. The obvious answer, given that massively multicell batteries are going to be in use for the next little while at least, is a sealing and binding material designed like an anti-expoxy to disolve as needed and then be reclaimed and reused.
EV Battery tech is on an exponential design improvement curve. We expect rapid changes to chemistry, technology, and corresponding service procedures.
As if cell failure weren’t a problem( as Munro makes it look). Gruber of course knows better
Maybe the new cells are better than the older 18650 cells in the S and X cars. Also.. the fact that the cells are better supported thru the foam.. against vibration might make the failure rate lower. There will always be failures in anything made. But if the rate is very very low, it may not be an issue. I do prefer repairability also.. GM has gone that route in there Ultium pack design.
I guess time will tell which is the better overall route to take.
@@kens97sto171 Maybe. But I wouldn’t count on it. Failure rate may be lower because there are fewer cells.
@@EVPaddy
But the failure rate can be also reduced by the manufacturing design. They mentioned the thin connecting wire in the Model S in the original packs That's a very high failure point. Vibration defects in the wire etc. They eliminated that. And then in case the entire assembly in foam that cannot allow anything to move. That eliminates most vibration related connection failures. Probably going to leave you with only internal cell failures. Maybe the new 4680 cells are less failure prone.
Comes down to cost too. Both for the manufacturer and for the person who owns the car. Sure you can put a new engine in your car. The question is whether it's worth it or not? Same as going to be true with these battery electric cars. If that battery fails at 500,000 miles nobody is really going to care at that point. If they start failing every 150,000 mi then people are going to be concerned and the value of these cars and the used market will be very low due to the risk.
I've got a 14-year-old Prius with 423,000 mi on it still on the original battery. That battery cost $2,500 brand new from Toyota.
But the car has saved me much more than $2,500 over the miles I've driven.
@@kens97sto171 A Prius has a NiMH battery in it. That type of cell is more robust than Li ion.
Our experience with EV battery reverse engineering reveals that with every new or altered battery chemistry, a new set of parameters emerge. The most recent example of this is an emerging trend in Roadster batteries, in which replacements released in 2016, are not outlasting the original packs from 2008. We have a video describing these findings - th-cam.com/video/bK4g2Ts30tA/w-d-xo.html
Afaik the Model 3 battery pack can handle a couple cells going resistive or dropping out of the pack... Therefore it won't fail in the same ways as the old Model S or Model Y packs.
What they need to be talking about is the likelihood that a fender-bender is going to damage the battery pack. If one plans to have a car for 350k miles, then this is the most probable outcome. Sooner or later that battery is going to experience physical damage. If it isn't repairable, then it alters the environmental impact.
I have now watched this twice. I'm NOT complaining! More Sandy in my life is always a good thing. His knowledge and clarity of expression tells me that he would make an excellent teacher or university professor.
Nope
and 2x Nope.
You guys are great. Loved the show.
Pete and Sandy! What a fantastic combo more please
Great content. Nice to see Sandy and Pete talking cars and batteries.
Wonder how repairable/reliable the Rivian stuff is.
Excellent work!
Tesla taking one out of Apple's approach to "repairabilty".
Fascinating topic. Would like more in depth on this idea. Hopefully Tesla will watch as well and get some ideas for future so as not to scrap a whole pack or car.
I'm sure there is a solvent that can safely be used on this - when handled properly. Not something for a regular repair shop to handle, but there is enough value in those structural battery packs for people with the right expertise to take on.
if all you want is the materials you can also always just discharge the pack to 0V, shredder the entire thing and then separate via cyclotronic separation.
Top stuff guys- regards from South Africa
JB and Redwood Materials needs to have contracts with big box stores like Home Depot, Lowes, Menards and Walmart. They all need to have battery collection and drop off sites at their stores. If you make it easy to recycle the batteries more people will do it. Getting large retailers to box them up in bulk will make it easier to ship and process. Not mixing the batteries in with regular recycling operations would make the process easier and smoother.
Sounds like a logistics nightmare. How will the stores be compensated for their space?
Had to laugh. Here in Europe this is mandatory for 20? Years.
re: "If you make it easy to recycle the batteries more people will do it." close if you PAY people for their recycled batteries more people will do it, so let's stop with the "scam" of pretending these batteries (even used and depleted ones) don't have IMMENSE VALUE.
@@JDB-ru4lp absolutely NO problem as we do that really for more than 20 years but out in the Pampa people throw everything out of their windows and have never heared from value of recyclables? USA is not careing for environmental issues and so are not thinking in terms of valuables people just dispose somewhere in the desert. Towns were built and nobody care to clean up the mess when people moved on to destroy another place! Only for Hollywood with Wall-E this was something Disney Pixar made money with and nobody did learn anything. Well, at least some European countries, e.g. Switzerland care much to recycle glass, cardboard, plastics, batteries, cars, electronics etc. When buying new products you even pay an advance recycling fee and any dealership must take defective products back free of charge.😂😎🇨🇭😜
A whole new industry will be developed for battery replacement and servicing . The foam looks sloppy . As from the video it makes servicing almost impossible it also makes recycling difficult and toxic . Tesla really doesn't take sustainability seriously and rides the back of the green wave of profits .
The recycling is not really difficult or toxic either. The packs are designed to be ground up and washed.
They use polyurethane foam, which is recyclable (with some limitations). The rest are all practically recyclable into new batteries.
The toxic chemicals they mention are the chemicals for depolymerising the foam, so you can easily disassemble the pack, but this kind of disassembly is not intended and not necessary either.
When the cells are too old, you need to ground them up either way and separate the particles by density.
My only problem with the foam is that it is not recyclable into new foam, but that may change too, there are active research about this.
It would have better to use either compostable foam (which needs to be highly insulated from any water) or something which have an easy and cheap solvent like ethyl acetate.
They were probably thinking of tetrahydrofuran, which is excellent solvent for polyurethane.
But I do not want to be _anywhere_ near that stuff. It is relatively toxic, can cause cancer, and also converts itself into an unstable high explosive in storage.
Its not a polyeurethane foam......Its an encapsulating material that adds structure aswell as a thermal resistance temp to the material too where it actually acts as a heat sink.. The product is MG Chemicals 832TC-375ML.. Whats funny is when tesla posts pictures of its factory etc they should blur out the labels on the barrels in the background as AI is keen to read these labels especially the ones that have a barcode......LOL..Tesla also uses specially formulated products made by Loctite and Dow that are packaged with the Tesla logo....Even you can get a specially blended chemical made by any of the 3 listed ,get it patented, give it a label then market it as proprietary and have it made by one of those 3..........LOL Its like 12v lead acid batteries.....No matter the brand theyre all made by Johnson Controls..........LOL
Of course individual cells fail, sooner or later. So repairable is more important than structural
Well done! 👌
THANKS FOR SHARING THIS INFO ℹ️🤗👍💚💚💚
If you know or suspect a resitive cell, why not pull the cover, charge the pack, and use a thermal camera to detect the failed cell. It should be quite a bit warmer than any other cell. Then just clean off the foam on that one cell. You might even be able to clip the connection without any foam removal if you know exactly where the cell connection is (perhaps via x-ray?). Should be far easier than cleaning the entire pack. If you do clean the entire pack, you have to figure out a way to reapply the foam to the entire pack, which could be just as tricky as removal!
And repairing the welds after replacement? Keeping it sterile inside? Re foaming&sealing it back up right? 🤔
All reasons why pack's are NOT that easily repaired by common mechanics and tech's right now in open air dealerships and service bays.
They are originally assembled and designed in clean rooms kept at constant controlled temps&humidity with very little foreign object matter.
Amature hour repairs by greasy thick fingered tech's doesn't cut it. And the pack's must maintain a very precise cell balance or the bms weirds out on you.
@@4literv6 Assuming a thermal camera could find the failing cell(s), I wonder if a technician could cut a plug (like with a hole saw) from the casing, then use that access to deactivate the failed cell. Then replace and re-seal the plug. Related ... it seems like Tesla should be able to make cells that detect their own failure, then remove themselves from the circuit automatically. Then the BMS could just monitor and report these failures. Granted it may not be worth the extra cost, but would sure be nice to diagnose such things without major surgery.
We have been testing that technik with an expensive thermal camera and there are many problems: first, metal parts have very poor emissivity and it is really difficult to get good temperature reading relative or absolute... the reflected MWIR or LWIR heat is a major problem. Second, most problematic cells dont have a high short.. it is more a slow short with few mA leaking.. and these few mA x 3.6V dont make enough heat to be distinguished by the camera... unless the cell have a normal short between slow short or dead short to carry enough current to create enough heat so that the NETD of the camera is enough to detect it.
Yeah it's super easy to assume that! Are you sooo "experienced" to talk about that!! Lol
@@4literv6Cells are made in clean rooms, packs aren't.
Disconnecting bonding of resistive cells by carefully drilling?
This may work really well if they know exactly where the bonding tabs are!
Great segment- subbed!
I watch Sandy pretty religiously but have just discovered you guys.
Trying to soak up as much battery pack info as possible so I can sounds reasonably knowledgeable at the dealer if/when service is required. Those Tesla packs look like a nightmare. Sandy mentioned BMW uses modular packs so I imagine my Mini SE is likely constructed in that style.
I thought the pink stuff was an expanding foam that would dissolve easily in acetone. When I hear "potting material" I think heavy, gummy, almost solid rubber material. Seems like a strange choice when weight is always an EV concern.
it is an expanding foam.
and expanding foam falls under potting when used in this way
it is also a structural material, so it is not a soft foam.
MG Chemicals 832TC-375ML
As per the 'pink stuff', does Dichloromethane, or other solvent, bother it?
Thanks!
LiFePO4 cells won’t go resistive the way the previous cells do?
You might be able to localise a bad cell with a thermal camera, as if it is resistive it should get hotter than the other cells, especially if it isn't being charged or discharged.
Main reason why battery swapping makes sense besides upgrading options
Thanks that was very interesting. it seems that the newer batteries are far more waterproof.
as rich quoted once, the older style is not that protected. He bought flood damaged cars and the battery was toast.
On the one hand I like that it is potted but I wish It would be more modular.
I like the MIB theme
How about using one of those laser cleaning devices that evaporate. If you could find a setting that would evaporate the putty, but not solid plastic, it could do the trick. This kind of a tool would be useful also in situations where you need to remove paint, rust or anything you would use a dry ice /sand blaster on.
There is no such setting most likely. But if you know _exactly_ where to dig, you may be pretty successful doing battery pack surgery with a laser.
With highly specialized equipment I can imagine cell replacement too.
The big question is that would it be worth to service those packs? Maybe only cutting out resistive cells will be enough?
This looks like a golf interview
One way to reduce the effort is to use multiple techniques such as electric vibrating chisel/scraper, followed by dry ice blasting, and additionally some D-limonene as a solvent. For debugging failed cell, a flir camera could help, along with sub milli-ohm resistive and non contact inductive tracing using equipment such as toneohm shorts locator, if electrical access from BMS could be established. Just some thoughts 💭
Or put it into landfill.
@@oggyoggy1299 why would you ever put a few grand worth of concentrated materials in a landfill
Is the pink potting dust hazardous to breath?
Alright, they're good, no need to service for a life time. Fair enough. What about accidents, when battery pack is "dented"?
Servicability is one thing. Another thing is the use of second life. As Mr. Munro already said, it is very complicated to take the each cells out of the system. You can only use the pack as whole system. But think about it. Who wanna use the whole pack in an ESS?
What if you get in a car accident? Would you have to junk the whole car?
It's like any vehicle: it depends on the severity of the accident. The battery is relatively easy to check.
If the whole car is warped, 99.9% of the time it's a total loss, whether it's an ICE, BEV, FCEV,...
@@Zedus-rl9hp I’d be worried that even minor battery damage would be unfixable
The structural pack, if it were compromised beyond repair during a collision, is removable.
@@grubermotorcompany The question is at what cost and how much more likely are batteries to be compromised because it’s part of the structure
Unfortunately Munro is great at his job and he's a mega millionaire which is great, but he doesn't care about the individual's story, who is not rich and can barely afford an EV, perhaps used one, and one day gets a resistive cell. Munro doesn't want to answer that question -- what the heck do you do then, literally. He cares about the direction of the industry as a whole even if "progress" means leaving behind semi-bankrupt people with unrepairable packs. Hats off to Gruber for trying to steer Munro into that direction although fruitlessly.
Is this the same cover that Tesla deleted? The "sound insulation/Fire protection" layer that was not needed.
Tesla have created a new paradigm with the 4680 structural battery pack. In my opinion due to massive improvements in manufacturing quality and of course reliability in design, this pack is non-serviceable. To use an analogy, for most of the 20th century TV’s were manufactured to be serviced and repairable. Now current manufactured TV’s are infinitely more reliable but generally when they go wrong you throw them away. We should stop looking at Ice vehicles as a comparison especially the engine versus the electric motor/ battery pack. Of course occasionally things will fail but over time improvements in technology will make electric cars have a reliability an order of magnitude greater than ice vehicles.
The flat screen repairability is a good one. The ubiquitous TV repair shops in the last century disappeared as TV set prices dropped to the point where repair exceeds replacement, and continuous technology improvements pushed owners even further towards discard and replace.
While we do not doubt the EV batteries will eventually follow the same path, it will not occur until the repair costs exceed replacement, or new and better technologies offering more range, less weight (performance boosts) emerge.
@@grubermotorcompany FROM WHAT I SAW AND HEARD IT SEEMS REPAIR COST ALREADY EXCEEDS REPLACEMENT COST?
The problem though is that although the failures are rare they do still happen, and if you're the one who is unfortunate to have it happen to your car when it is out of warranty Tesla expects you to buy a new one from them at a price which is a huge percentage of what the car is actually worth. Although this is something that does have an analogue in the ICE world when the transmission or engine goes, at least in the ICE world you have the option of getting the thing repaired or rebuilt rather than having to outright buy a new one. With Tesla it seems they are determined that this not be an option for their customers. So buying an older Tesla becomes a huge financial gamble, and it shouldn't have to be. It would take very little effort for Tesla to set up a program where they have repair shops that will do cell replacement the right way so that the safety and reliability of the car is not compromised, and that would make their cars accessible to a wider market of people that aren't willing to drop $40K and up on a car.
Just to comment on your TV analogy, the difference is TV's are generally affordable and most people can afford to just go out and buy a new one if their current one breaks.
@@andrewawakened628 a cheap TEsla is coming and failure rate will continue to drop...someone will figure it out but it wont be tesla. instead in time warranty is likely to extend to 10yr 150000miles and eventurally i see a CORE style replacement. IE trade in your old pack for a new one at a reasonable cost...old one gets recycled into a new one. First movers into an electric car are going to pave the way or the masses. excellent exectution by tezla
@@andrewawakened628 Yes, the pack is analogous to an engine, and the rarity of a pack failure just out of warranty is analogous to an engine eating a valve or breaking a timing chain that trashes both head and cylinder as well as piston and cracked the block on top of it all. It is wishful to think there is just one $5 cell that should be easily replaced, when we need to just think of it as a single major component that failed. There are loads of "mechanic specials" in the classified with 100k mile Audi, Mercedes, and BMW luxury cars going for a few thousand dollars because only a mechanic spending their own time can replace the engine or trans with a new one for less than $15K. That's what we have to assume, anyway, or the owner would be repairing rather than selling a 10yo car. Even to install a used low mileage late model engine or trans can cost $7-10K. Lexus wanted $6k to replace my 100k mile trans ten years ago, and rebuilding it still cost $3k by an outside shop. Tesla battery pack issues cost similarly. A brand new Tesla Model 3 pack is $12K and a used one $6K. So these costs are similar. Gruber is making money because a replacement Model S or Roadster pack is upwards of $20K, but battery pack prices have come down and I doubt they will be able to profitably repair Model 3 and Model Y or Model 2 packs for much longer.
I'd prefer a modular pack myself, maybe 17 modules of 22.2v each bypassable if a problem crops up in one and easily swapped out by the owner rather than a repair shop. No mfr seems interested in doing it that way, though. I don't think they want the liability of users touching a pack that can short with 500kw of energy.
I would like to see Rich on these shows too.
Insurance companies are factoring into the cost equation unfavorably for the consumer so the merits for lower failures in mfg and operations countered by accidents. If the roads were safer then repairs less of a concern.
The solvent would damage other components under the cell and possibly the gaskets... and is flammable.
Love the matching sunglasses. Florida cats? LOL.
The tesla pack is structural meaning it takes some of the twisting and bending loads. What is the long term impact on the cells if not the connections. Hopefully it lives up to its warranty or they will have huge costs as the vehicle ages.
Looks like the LiFePO4 batteries will not have issues. The NMC/A ones could be a little unreliable.
why are they wearing sunglasses???
Matrix ReCharged lol
They're obviously outside, you can tell by how still and calm the ocean is.
Same question..
Why cover your eyes up not a good look when interacting with others
@@cliveburks true that
What about recycling, would that be a issue?
Apple style soldered on SSD ram glued on batteries sealed pen and airports once the battery goes it's dead.
Exchange parts between two new phones and they stop working planned obselence.
So the Tesla warranty on its batteries is for a maximum of 8 years or 240,000km or less for some models. That's about the same length of time a battery lasts in an ordinary IC car. So if the Tesla battery modules fail after this time you're going to be up for repair or replacement out of your own pocket. So what is the general cost to repair the battery and what is the warranty for the repair?
So much research on Battery's everything will be different in 3 to 5 years.
A whole industry recycling these packs is yet to properly start. It will be huge in 10 years time.
It sounds like they are making so hard to deal with it will be cheaper to keep mining for a long time…
Thats why the VW MEB system with screws and everything has merrit !
HATE the structural packs. That was high on my list of why I bought an Ioniq 5. Battery technology will improve and a big future industry for small manufacturers will be battery replacement with newer technology batteries. If you doubt that, look at the market for upgrading Leaf batteries.
How are you able to do road trips with Ioniq 5 without as much availability of a super charging network ?
How often do cells in replaceable BEVs actually get replaced? The Bolt, I3, ID3, ID4, MachE... all have replaceable cells. How frequently does repair actually happen? 1 in 100? 1 in 1000? 1 in 10.000?
probably more for Roadsters and early S's, but yeah, modern Tesla packs seem to be pretty reliable.
It doesn't matter how often they need to be replaced because ICE cars are made to be repaired and there are literally 40years old+ ICE around the world been used in really harsch environments where your Tesla won't survive lol!!
Everything fails, I support right to repair
Charge on!
Good topic now that the Model Y AWD is available for order. I'm not interested anymore, surely when these cars go past 10 years of age, battery issues will come up. Model Y LFP might come soon.
9:30 It looks to me that you just need to remove the rear seats to access the electronics penthouse which is much easier than dropping the entire pack.
Yeah, I would be really surprised if they changed it from the previous versions, which can be removed from the top by taking out the rear seats. The OBC can fail and is a separately replaceable part (at least in the older versions), so it wouldn't make much sense to have to drop the pack every time just to replace that part.
Maybe what they mean is it's "easier" for places with a lift to do it from the bottom, even though Tesla might allow removing from top.
@@jakej1837 I think Sandy just forgot. Popping out the rear seat bottom is much easier than removing the entire pack, lift or no lift.
Nickel, a major component of the EV batteries, is found
just below the topsoil in the Rainforests of Indonesia
and the Philippines. As a result, the nickel is extracted
using horizontal surface mining that results in extensive
environmental degradation: deforestation and removal
of the top layer of soil.
At 00:58 'Do you want to make It servicable or repairable'
What's the difference between serviceable and repairable ?
I think they meant difference between serviceable and reliable maybe
I believe Sandy meant "serviceable or reliable", which he corrected a bit later in the segment.
If you have an accurate diagram of the battery pack dimensions it would be possible to design a machine that cleaned off and captured the potting material using dry ice and cam tools. Yes, it would be a sizeable capital investment - 500-1000 unit ROI but absolutely doable.
You can CNC drill most (but not all!) of the foam if you know the internals. So you can save lots of time and CO2 this way.
My gut feeling is that by the time that a cell would go defective beyond the 8 year warranty, the cost of full replacement batteries, or used batteries from a totaled car will be so cheap that its not worth trying to repair an existing battery.
Fully agree on that assumption. If there is serious and 100% recycling with environmental friendly processes this would be okay for me. But repair of structural batteries is an issue because there still will be accidents and insurance will not always finance new cars by then!😎🇨🇭
In the interest of getting rid of individual cells to prevent the cascading failures, could the one cell be drilled out? What if the pack were indexed on a CNC machine? The CNC machine could drill out a cylinder just inside of the outer shell of the cell.
Our experience with Roadster and Model S packs indicates single cell failures are an infrequent anomaly, and cell failures do not cascade.
Cant power tools be used to remove the foam?
It like epoxy, so very stiff. That's why they had to use the dry ice blaster
What’s up with those sunglasses?
Q: Sandy, can you repair a Tesla battery. A: They won't fail. You heard it from the expert folks. Frankly, I think Tesla needs to work a LOT more on repairability and quit being so secretive. The insurance companies already hate them. Consumers aren't far behind...
The short answer is: "No".
true. for now... gruber or someone will find a way. in 6-8 years when 4680 packs come off warranty.
Tesla is going to hope and rely on their batteries and cells not going bad. If the battery is part of the structure and it needs to be replaced under warranty then I want to know what their process is because their battery might be good but all that pink insulation foam over and in between every cell looks like a nightmare.
They give you a new car.
Full pack replacement, that's what they've always been doing anyway. Tesla never took the time to find the faulty cell, that's what allowed Gruber to exist as a business and to cover that niche.
Its like newer carbs compared to older carbs for small equipment....The older carbs had mixture screws to adjust a/f mix...Todays carbs have no mixture settings making the machines very problematic and only serviceable by someone qualified............
is laser scaling an Option?
Sandy is just class 😊
Jb was ex Tesla founder he was CXO in Tesla.
JB Straubel was CTO of Tesla for 14 years, and like the current Drew Baglino, became Elon's right hand technical partner. JB has successfully launched Redwood Materials, a battery recycling company with near zero waste stream, and has rejoined Tesla as a board member.
If I couldn't buy a car with a repairable battery, I wouldn't buy it....
Seems like a reasonable way to look at it.
A man's got to do what a man's got to do.
And you want that you can upgrade yourcar with better batteries to!
So what Sandy is saying is, no these are not fixable without major headaches. Shame on Tesla
but what if there's a very good reason for this that we don't understand?
What he actually said is that the construction makes it far less likely to fail.
.
Just btw
"Not fixable without major headaches" also describes a modern combustion Engine.
@@jamesengland7461
Come on James, you should know by now that EVERYBODY understands EVERYTHING on social media! 😉
When an (Actual) expert declares "This is a fact!" There's ALWAYS an "Ah! BUT!" from a keyboard Rocket Scientist who knows better because his dads friends cousin told him.
@@rogerstarkey5390 exactly.
@@jamesengland7461 money. If a pack fails out of warranty, you replace the whole pack, not a brick/cell
Thats why christmas light is disposable..its really hard to repaired need to test it one by one or ten by ten to identify which battery are defective
JB and Redwood Materials, yes, but Tesla also recycles materials from batteries.
JB and redwood or whatever you call them aren't the only ones to recycle batteries lol!!
@@carholic-sz3qv Thanks for the lol
If Tesla considers it non repairable, that's great.
Puts more cells on the secondary market.
JA gutes Thema. Ich denke das TESLA diese Strukturpackete so konzipiert hat, dass es keine Schäden haben wird sowie davon ausgeht das der Akku die Lebenszeit vom Auto überdauert. Danach gibt es ein hoffendliches nachleben und dann ab in den schrederer zum wiederverwerten. Alles ander macht kein Sinn. Das ding ist eine kleine Festung und basta. mal schauen wie es sich herausstellen wird in 8 Jahren.
VAMOS TESLA!
How are the Tesla batteries recycled?
Redwood Materials
ya for the first 5 years of battery tech should be bolt on packs to make retrofit more a module so once the batt tech settles then a structural pak might bee ok but i dont like it
the cyber truk will be a prime example
lol, so when did the clock reset?
Why are they trying to look like agents from the Matrix?
😂I was thinking the same, agent Smith on the right!
why the Matrix look?
imagine if you could just clip and unclip the battery from your Iphone, you could take a spare with you if needed, leave one on charge whilst you using yours ,
Yall just wait for the new battery technology and what we will be using
All sorts of materials. Salts, carbon. It might pose for certain solutions to this issue
Tesla is communicating with 3rd party repair shops and considering selling parts to them??!
That's huge.
EU has a law proposal that states the right to repair and will force manufacture to supply spare parts for there products and thus ending the just by a new one mentality and make repair costs more transparent. Is there any one that thinks it is really cheaper to by a new battery pack than to repair it?
I guess battery insurance will be coming sometime soon for out of warranty batteries...
The foam is absolutely horrible
Structural battery design will be the demise of Tesla😂
The honeycomb battery structure is out? And is that one going to be repairable?
why ask munro, not a battery expert, in fact novice level knowledge of lithium batteries.
lets get to the nitty gritty, cells in parallel are not discernable as individual cells, you can only get average values of those cells. That is always a weakness in battery packs, its one of the major flaws in battery packs that has not been solved, I didn't see any discussion about this important issue.
Until packs are monitored at a cell level ( which they are not as yet), there will always be risk and unkowns. There are solutions out there to this issue not yet implemented.
Sandy dances around the very simple, direct question "how repairable is Tesla's structural battery?" The simple, direct answer is "it's not".
Two differently skilled companies came together for this Podcast. One focused on teardown for determining BOM's, production processes, and material costing, and GMC, which does something similar, reverse engineering to determine and find a path to aftermarket repairability.
As Sandy pointed out, they did notice some aspects of repairability when he mentioned the CAN logic board as being replaceable inside the pack. The next layer is connectors, contactors, a Pyro fuse, and our final specialty, hunting down a failed cell which can kill a car.
@@grubermotorcompany Point. However I submit that the non-repairability at the cell level makes the pack, for all intents and purposes, disposable as most pack failures are at the cell/module level and not with the control electronics.