Totally agree. Bless them for being so diplomatic. It's obvious that Polyphony have the edge but they're still very positive about Forza. IGN's comparison was obviously subjective and favoured Forza. What do you expect when it was hosted by one of the Xbox stans. I'm sure they're paid by MS or severely deluded. Ryan McCaffery should watch this, learn something about objectivity.
@@IHateEnglish10282 What do you mean? Forza runs much worse on PC in my experience than it does on console and GT7 is only available on console so what do you mean?
I'm blown away by how accurate the treelines are in GT. It's something most people will never notice until they see a side-by-side comparison like this but it shows how much care and attention went into recreating these tracks.
As an astronomer I am delighted by how realistic GT7s night sky represents the stars and contellations. It's not 100% but the main contellations are there and star maginitudes are represented very well indeed. It warms my heart when games based on Earth have an accurate night sky for me to look at and enjoy.
The crazy thing is they did this already with GT6 on the PS3. I remember they used mount panorama for their demonstration Also: remember the moon missions?
This transcends far beyond a 'graphical breakdown', and is what it looks like when someone is in love with what they do, up to, and including complete mastery of it. Bravo John.
Huge respect for this video, can't imagine the hours put in. Also mega props for platforming a few of the issues with the newest Forza Motorsport, to have it come from such a respected publication when big reviewers just glossed over them is refreshing and very helpful overall. I hope we see a GT Sport to GT7 style glow up to the game in the future.
Mad respect for Theo and John for covering different aspects of those racing games. Theo always has good criticism for gameplay and the feel of the game from the consumer perspective, like how the servers are running, any cool playlist this week? Are the cops present, are they tough? How's the progression? Is it grindy? IS IT FUN? As for the other side of things, DF has a surgical eye for all things tech-related. Why isn't it running great? How does it run with RT? Is the HDR implementation good enough? Frame times, frame drops, what causes it, and so on. Very fortunate to have such high-level quality information available. Thx guys!
I agree that most people don't fully understand but I think people who follow DF will generally have a good understanding, otherwise (generally speaking) you wouldn't bother watching the videos.
Just a small note on crowd movement. While it's more engaging to see them waving and whatnot, at actual races people really aren't fanatically waving like at a football game.
Yes! Thought I was going crazy seeing people prefer the crazy crowd constantly waving in Forza. They look much better than before, but it's so less realistic than GT
John I don't normally comment on videos, but this was beautiful. The quality and presentation was top tier. It has that Sunday cosy vibe to it and I need more videos like this. I wish it was longer. Well done!
@@Lordicus21i would say crash physics but only in some instances. GT physics just aren't as consistent but I wouldnt say the over all visuals and physics are better. The driving feels more realistic imo
Both games are stunning but after this video I can only have much more appreciation for Polyphony's eye for detail. The likeness to the real world counterparts are insane.
19:42 Tyres spilling out would actually be a red flag in real life since lost tires are a safety hazard so they're usually belted together, or stuck on a tubular inner frame. Strange case of where trying to be "realistic" actually makes the game not realistic.
This video is an incredible effort. GT7 has been one of the best games of the entire generation for me. The love put into this game...hardly seen on any other.
While it was certainly an incredible effort (PD’s love for everything cars has always shown through in their work in a beautiful way), the actual “game” part of it was lacking imo. If they had the career from previous GT’s and kept everything else the same then it would be amazing, but as it is, it’s nothing more than fetch quests but for cars. “Beat this race and we’ll give you a car, do that 3 times and I’ll give you another 3 races to beat” and so on… I remember GT3, 4, and 5; it was a genuine accomplishment to get to the GT World Championship and finally beat it, only to be thrust into endurance races that’ll eat your entire life. GT7’s Championship was just another race for me and it was just underwhelming… I honestly didn’t realize what it was until after I won and the trophy appeared… and afterwards? Oh, do some more races and you’ll win a roulette ticket which will give you $10k or a car part you’ll never use
Another detail I hoped you noticed are the full colour LED screens around the track in GT7, if you go close and zoom in you'll see that the pixels are individually and realistically rendered, to the point that you can see the RGB channels the same way you would if you put a magnifying glass in front of a real screen.
This is fucking amazing lol. The attention to not just detail but legitimate tricks in visual representation of tech/surfaces is honestly mindboggling.
Probably the best video I've ever seen from DF, and that is already an incredibly high bar to cross. Great achievement, congrats John! Would have loved to hear some words on VR, and perhaps a detailed audio comparison, but we can't all be here for another hour ;)
55:40 "Though for this particular effect my heart is still with Driveclub" - exactly what I was thinking! An outstanding comparison you've done here, just incredible. (as always) - DF is the David Attenborough nature documentary of gaming.
After hundreds of hours in GT7 I got used to the graphics, but man, this video really makes me appreciate again how breathtaking it looks. Gorgeous, gorgeous looking game.
I don't know, I only play this game in VR. VR looks good, but with downgrades. However, once you play it in VR, you can't go back. Having a stiff forward view in turns really hurts the driving experience. As when you lose control in a car(sliding on ice, and such), it is necessary to look in the direction you wish to go. You can only do this in VR, and every corner is better when you can do this.
@@datruth4766 forza horizon 5 (haven't played motorsport this year) has an option that will let you turn your head and will even do it automatically when turning so that may be something you could use
@@laughingseal2282 It's a lot more noticeable on some older cars, namely late 80s and 90s road cars where lights with just bulbs behind colored plastic. GT7 captures the look of them astoundingly well
This video is wonderful, and it has truly given me an entirely new appreciation for the level of detail Polyphony put into GT7. It's actually astounding their attention to detail and how much they clearly stress realism. Forza looks fine, it's a pretty game, but GT7 just looks unbelievable.
It's really sound ridiclous, but i wish DF someday can compare GT Sport and NFS 2015. The reason i pick NFS 2015 is because how incredible the graphics is, even till this day, some games can't do what NFS 2015 do. The main competitor to GT for "photorealistic" graphics area.
@@prapanji9976Nfs2015, while night only, is still the best racing games graphics wise, absolutely blew my mind when it came out, and still does when I play it
@SuPeRz4ever I understood the Store as microtransactions. Don't know why people hate on it when it's completely optional and just for buying credits which you can earn by playing.
The shot at 1:34 perfectly illustrates what I love so much about GT7. The quality of materials is just completely unparalleled. Multi layer car paint is just done so well, and the way light bounces off the reflectors is almost flawless. Forza has some things going for it but the attention to detail in GT7 is just insane.
That's because Turn 10 are still recycling models from as far back as 2005. Polyphony stripped back their car list and started to rebuild with laser scanned models. Turn 10 refuse to do this, they may have 700+ cars but the vast majority are inaccurate and low quality.
@@themarauder6108 sorry but materials quality has almost nothing to do with the modelling of the cars. Some cars in Forza are modelled really well, but yeah others are pretty awful. None of that affects things like the paint and light reflection on surfaces.
@@darvo110 I never said anything about material quality, reflections and paint surfaces. The models themselves aren't to the same standard as GT because they haven't been updated in years.
I know John put a lot of hard work into this, so I’m gonna find an hour in my day to watch every minute. much appreciated John. Bespoke Kudos to you sir.
Just got GT7 based on this video - for £30 too! I thought that Forza looked brilliant on Xbox series x but am blown away by GT7 gfx. Great job Mr Linneman.
It's not just the better GT7 graphics but car and track accuracy. They are simple closer to the real tracks that make it believable that you are racing on something that exists in real life.
I haven't played GT in years, last time I played was only a couple hours on PS2 with GT4, I skipped the PS3 and even though I own a PS4, I never played GT Sport, and after giving GT7 one year to cool my head because of the MTX fiasco at launch, I find that I very much enjoy the game, the driving model, soundtrack, menu design, it's all just so... singularly GT, I have enjoyed very much putting in an hour a day in it for the past few months. There's still stuff I hate about the game (AI could be better, roulettes make me mad, the freaking expensive legendary cars, etc, etc) but the experience of actually sitting down and playing it is great.
I really love how Gran Turismo matched the formation and heights of the trees, that really shows an attention to detail of what it's like to drive not just on the track surface itself, but through that location too. It's one of those things that a regular racer of the track would notice was missing. I think one thing that Forza has over GT that wasn't mentioned is the actual texture of the paint, where you can see this warbled, pitted-like quality in the reflection edges that isn't there in GT. Overall this video's a great demonstration at how one tackled representing the real world, and both of them will be subjectively better or worse. I personally prefer the more high contrast, saturated and authentically-detailed look of GT7, but there's things like rain and damage that I think Forza presents better. Fantastic video!
The "orange peel" paint effect IS present in GT for classic cars with an older paint formula. It's not there for new cars because new car paint are smooth and mirror-like in real life as well.
The attention to detail regarding the treelines in GT7 isn't just impressive, but utterly bizarre! It's insane how they choose to model all these different trees in pursuit of accuracy.
It's a racing simulator, you can't call yourself a simulator if you don't simulate the track as accurately as possible, forza just wanted to try and make their game seem more ' busy ' at the expense of realism even it means the tracks wouldn't look accurate.
@@adrianhosein7698 I don’t know if that is entirely fair though. The act of driving, with the physics and actual layout of the drivable track playing a more substantial role, the visuals surrounding it aren’t as important I’d argue. Whether GT7 or Forza is the winner in that regard though I wouldn’t be able to tell, since I’ve only ever played GT7.
@Ozziw162 Agreed. The "simulator" refers to car physics/handling and the track. The rest like outside the track areas and weather are just flourishes AND if it wasnt for this video, no one would even now or notice if the track side detail is accurate or not.
Thanks for taking a deep dive into this comparison! I've always admired how much attention to detail Gran Turismo always had, and the vibe was always around the love and care of cars and motorsports history
I'm glad you're bringing up differences between the games and real-world environment updates. I'm not familiar with how Forza has handled this in the past, but GT7 did actually update the environment for the Fuji track earlier this year. A hotel was built just outside the last corner of Fuji within the past couple years, and GT7 added this in a 2023 update. It's kind of funny that they added it because the hotel is almost universally despised for "ruining" the view of Mt. Fuji, but nevertheless it is true to life. I would expect GT7 to slowly add these types of updates to the game.
Fantastic video. One point I would make on how GT7 depicts trackside detail and their attention to accuracy is that it's not just about being "real", many of these things, like treelines, towers, even small bumps, are used by drivers as reference points for breaking, position on the track, etc. First time I drove at the Nürburgring I was amazed at how accurate GT was (Sport at the time, this was before 7 even). I felt like I knew the track, my very fast lap I was doing decent times already.
Know exactly what you mean. Got to tick driving Nürburgring off my bucket list last year. Like you say, there wasn’t one surprise for me driving the track for the first time. Every corner as I’d come to expect from playing GT, every crest, every bump. That real-life sensation though, how good was it!?
@@scottdaniels8904Amazing, yet scary as I was racing with my daily driver at the time, a MX5 NC. Still I spent the entire weekend driving there, it was a surreal experience overtaking a G series 911 only to be overtaken a few moments later by a freaking Huracan. Also I saw more GT3s in those 2 days then in my entire life 😂
I will be forever in awe of the magic displayed by the wizards at Polyphony Digital. The whole driving experince they deliver is a unique crossover between art and design and technolgy. Masterful. Also Huge fan of the musc selection aswell. Love the Chris Hülsbeck track and also DMC5!
I also a massive fan of music selections in Gran Turismo. Is it possible to listen anime soundtracks in GT7 via custom songs from PS4 or PS5 Internal Storage?
@@purwantiallan5089 Not sure if it's possible from the storage; but I noticed GT automatically silences the music if you use spotify in the background on the ps5!
I have a pretty bad ass PC and a sim rig.... But I really Wana try out GT7 so I'll probably buy a ps5 to... I'll need one any ways to play GTA 6 when that comes out anyways.......
I have it and it's amazing. Don't listen to any PC master race bots acting like PC is better. It's not. Yes, the graphics can be a little better, but that doesn't matter when the games are shittier. I've tried plenty of games that PC master race try telling me are better and they are just not.
@@errormachine5056 Graphics are way better it's a fact not an opinion... and as far as sim racing games its better on pc many more options in games and gear you can use not to mention vr support in most of them... thats not to say ps5 is bad it's just for different people who just want to play a game and not mess with 100 settings.
@@thatmemeguy2520 that is debatable when comparing the cost of games over long term use... it's just for different kind of people console is more for people who do not want to mess with setting plug and play on tv... i have both but mostly use pc due to better vr support in more racing games.
And their love for people to spend real money to even be able to earn most of them unless you're a no lifer grinding hours per day. Gt has fallen just as much as Fm has when it comes to game quality the past ~5 years. Both series copy each others half ass attempts of making a racing game and see how low they can go before sales are affected negatively.
Yes, the inaccurate details in Forza is infuriating. Wrong speedometer backlight, wrong taillights litting up, etc. like the MX5 LED taillights at 31:06
Great video, John! Really enjoyed. One thing you missed is the way GT7 simulates a drying up track: it's just outstanding and I often play races with mixed conditions just so that I can witness it.
Yeah, but the drying up path is predetermined, unfortunately. A perfect example of that is shown on one of Super GT's videos when he raced on a rainy High Speed Ring - the final corner's inside was drying off despite everybody driving on the outside of that corner.
Yeh you missed this whole bit out @DF John.... GT7 in VR is a massively different experience and since trying can't drive without. (I'm a much better driver in VR than on screen!)
I played so much GT7 since it came out, I can't even make sense of it, I don't know why, the game just feels good. Then when I was starting to go away from it, the VR mode came out and it lit my fire for it for some months again. It was great, really the best game that I played the most this generation thus far. Can't wait for the next one!
Bravo! This was an incredibly impressive video. I can’t imagine the amount of work it took to put this together. You’ve outdone yourself John. Props to the whole digital foundry team.
As a car and motorcycle enthusiast and a casual trackday rider. There is one important visual detail GT7 absolutely nails, rubber marbles that build up during the race outside the racing line and dry or drier lines where the car in front of leaves on the track as its tires displace the water.
Johns videos about racing games are always so good. The music and production are good enough on their own to be quality entertainment, but the actual critical content is great too. Thank God for John.
Excellent video John. As a fan of GT series from the PSX to PS5 era, I agree there is more ‘passion’ in GT series. But I do agree both Forza and GT are excellent having enjoyed both.
It's stunning to me how realistic these real-time rendered cars look in modern racing games. Some of the shots here really could be mistaken for photographs at first glance.
No they dont they look way too vibrant and everything has way too much reflection. I get its a new technology with ray traced reflections and they want to show them off but nothing in life is as reflective as in racing games like everything has a light layer of cooking oil all over it.
@@HaulinbassracingI mean, gaming - even 'realistic' gaming - is an exaggeration of reality. It's just like any other medium in that sense. I'd say *sometimes* these kinds of games do feel photoreal.
Gran Turismo has largely mastered replays and replay angles. Some of the onboard footage from the GT World Series event at the Nurburgring also integrated some camera-tracking to focus on the car ahead, and it frankly looked better than real life lmfao. And let’s not get started on some of the VR footage
It has an incredible level of passion behind it, but it also knows how to adapt the feeling of driving and racing in to a game far better than Forza ever will. I say this as an Xbox owner. To be honest GT7 looks so nice, I'm tempted to get a PS5 just to play it.
The thing is gran Turismo was created out of love made& hidden in another game before Sony ever wanted it. Meaning the Creator Kazunori made it without being paid or even knowing if Sony would green light it, that is love, he was not thinking this is gonna sell well and pay off, (that's Microsoft with a me 2 money grab) polyphony only knew they love cars and wanted to share that love with the world. The game bleeds passion and I feel it when I play better yet, or partake n the simulation experience, it's to real to be called a game
@@fj06carnone That is such a system-seller to me. I don't have a PSVR2 yet. Even if you don't play racing titles that often/seriously, there is something magical about racing on the tokyo highway at night. I only experienced that on PSVR and GT sport. Still haven't pulled the trigger because I'm still debating whether it's going to be this or a Quest 3 or some other random challenger in a year or so. (wouldn't mind a surprise valve anouncement). But I wonder what PCVR racing titles there are, that can deliver these kinds of experiences.
@@Jeff.55649 wow, what a valuable member of the gaming community you are. My dude, just enjoy games instead of mindlessly hating in order to validate your own choices.
23:00 this whole google maps comparison is a total win for GT. Super impressive! Mind you I am not biased, as I play neither of these games (or any other racing game for that matter)
Amazing work for this video, massively appreciated to see videogame's details highlighted in this way. Personally though, GT7 for me is just hands down the better looking game, Polyphony are masters of realistically modelling cars.
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It's crazy how well GT7 holds up, those paint textures in close ups are just insane
"Holds up" lol like the game was made 10 years ago lol. After GT7 was released, polyphony have continually upgraded visual elements and will continue to do so for a long time.
DF! No other like it among video game & tech channels. Plus, they got John the GGR (GOAT Game Reviewer)! Thank you for pouring your passion into this 😁
I worked on _Need For Speed_ (PS1) and it is simply stunning how far these simcades have evolved. Lighting and fun is subjective so it is great to compare and contrast these two titans and what they prioritize.
@@mja101 Mix between a simulation and arcade, nor GT or FM are real simulations and of course also not arcade in any way. The Assetto Corsa games, iRacing etc. are proper simulations, NFS is arcade, I think NFS Shift 1 and 2 can be considered simcades too, not sure
VR showroom in GT7 is the perfect way to admire the car models. You can put your face right up to the wheels and you will hardly ever see polys. Looking around the bumpers and lights, you will NEVER see polys.
We can compare visuals of both games until the sun explodes, but when it comes to connecting with the cars, the heart of the game. GT really nails it. Brand central could have you spending days looking through car brands and models and learning the history, watching the visuals as you choose a colour. It's really something to appreciate and adds an extreme amount of value to GT
GT7 also has VR... I Hope PS5 Pro is somehow capable of keeping the RT on and 1440 or 4k 120... not to mention an update to the VR, it's the best VR experience I had with the steering wheel on Laguna I'd literally anticipate warmth on my arms as the sun passed through the windshield just to remember I'm still in a game, and same with the corkscrew, you expect to feel the drop down the hill, then don't, it's an extremely impressive tech masterpiece.
@@parazels83yeah my only wishes for it really are higher core clocks, more RT cores, and more base storage. Probably 1-1.5TB just to keep the price In a good place, and just keeping the ability to upgrade if you really need it.
The issue will be memory. It's rumored that the PS5 pro will still use 16GB of RAM just at a faster speed. Ray Tracing and high resolutions are memory heavy.
@@BurritoKingdom maybe vram, but the only thing really "limited" by ram is texture resolution and poly count as far as graphics go. The render resolution and ray tracing are primarily driven by GPU core count (especially dedicated RT cores) and core clock speed. Faster Vram is mainly good for giving the GPU more headroom to start processing queued frames ect. But since they're using rdna3 architecture, vram would would be more likely to increase in capacity rather than speed for a performance boost because they don't rely as heavily on frame gen or SS tech as nvidia.
Amazing video ! Thanks for the level of quality of this comparison ! ❤ I’m playing both of these games and my heart goes for GT7 finally. The love of cars is so present in many respects on these game...
They've actually been doing this since all the way back in Gran Turismo 5! You can look it up on TH-cam for all the special holiday-themed menu scenes and BGMs lol
GT7 has come out almost 2 years before FM and is a cross gen game while FM is current gen only game/ pc. ( hardware advantage in my opinion) Amazing job done from Polyphony digital 👌🏻
The one thing I loved the most in GT7 is the personality it gives the other drivers across the entire game. Proper names (based of real people I guess? I've recognized some names from GT Academy) and dialogue made a huge difference in how I experienced the campaign.
No offense but you're the first person I've seen that likes the game using real names. Seeing the same names at the top positions got old really quickly and took away that "realistic" feeling of older titles. Thankfully it can be changed to display car names instead. Looking forward to GT8 I really hope they drop it or leave them to certain events.
yup a majority of the names are competitors from their esports series! so i find it quite nice that they integrated their most dedicated players into the game itself
I actually don't like All the "characters" and that stuff. I rather old GTs on that aspect, where you read that info from a dedicated slot in the screen (if you wanted) instead of those text boxes poping up
Hi John, regarding the E46 M3; The car in Gran Turismo is rocking the standard '18 wheel package, whereas the one depicted in Forza us on the optional '19 wheel. In real life, the designs are similar but not identical, both are modelled very accurately here although I think the materials finish on the Gran Turismo car is a bit more accurate. :)
I think that the biggest problem I have with the Forza visuals is the car paint. It gives the appearance like Forza has the subsurface scattering tuned up too high in the materials, giving the cars a softer, almost porous look in comparison. Still, it's minor, and not something I'd probably really pay attention to outside of a direct comparison like this! Curious to see what the modding community can do with Forza on PC.
GT7 carpaint look better but FM definitely is closer this time around. GT7 suffer from last gen shadows though, the shadows underneath the car look horrible, makes the cars look floaty. Also the shadows from frontlights at night are really low res. Cars also have visible LOD pop in GT7.
LOL it's a good/decent GT game not masterpiece not even close. People call anything decent a masterpiece now days that the word lost it's weight in it.
Let’s give a shout-out to Metropolis Street Racer on the Dreamcast, as I believe it was the first game to attempt to render realistic real world locations at good fidelity. All these games owe a debt to that pioneering effort.
@@Nauzhror1216 I played Gran Turismo 2. It didn't render real world locations at good fidelity, IMO. Some tracks were based on real locations, but were cut down/modified, too.
@@Nauzhror1216 GT3 is less advanced than Metropolis Street Racer when it comes to realistic rendering of real world locations at good fidelity. Some courses were not an attempt to create a real world location. Others were inspired by, but not meant to be accurate recreations of, real world locations. As opposed to MSR whose courses were based on thousands of photos and hundreds of hours of video of real cities.
You mentioned the tree line in the distance at 22:00 but I think the trees near the track are more important; that's what actual drivers use for timing their braking etc and they actually matched in GT7 instead of being seemingly random in Forza
Agreed. Accurate tree lines are very important for braking point markers. Forza looks like they're trying to limit draw distance with thick foliage. Probably a technical limitation.
@@Ryukyus80 its also possible that they really liked their new tree models and just wanted to spray paint them all over. I admit its not just the trees; I prefer the look of GT in almost every shot of that video, especially paint quality and lighting.
Johns the top guy. Always knows what he's talking about. GT7 developers attention to detail is unmatched in the industry. I believe there is a video somewhere where they talk about how they invested a lot of money into high tech cameras to capture paint.
I'm so glad this video was made. I wasn't sure if I was missing something but I always thought GT7 looked so much better after playing both. I just can't get immersed in FM even though I do think it has the better career mode.
the cars in GT 7 are still a generation ahead, its really impressive (I am a 3d Modeler myself) and I really have to say that PD has the best car modeler by far. the topology (polyflow) is so much superior compared to Forza... and I assume that PD is still using Tesselation for the cars, that makes it even more difficult to model and the polycount should be ast least twice if not tripple the forza cars. the Guys from PD stick way more to reality with the Tracks and the cars, that shows me the love PD has for racing games. I miss that with Forza. the Forza car models have hard knife sharp edges, which is totaly unrealistic. GT cars have soft and roundish edges, the polycount you need for that is 5-6 times higher AND its harder to model.
You can make rounded edges in shaders too without modeling it. But yeah the cars look better in GT7 also the lighting and shading is also better. But FM also has it's advantages. Track detail is better just compare the fences around the track. On GT7 they all look the same and have straight wires and it's the same with the tirebarriers.
I really appreciate how much effort John puts into these motorsport related videos, his passion really shows. For me its still GT in terms of visual advantage, something about it just feels like a premium designer brand.
FM was such a disappointment. It's shocking to me what Turn 10 was doing for 7 years compared to what Poliphony did. I understand they built a new engine, but what matters is end results. GT games aren't just great driving simulations, they're great games. There's a clear love for automotive history in them. The career modes hook you and you want to keep going. FM did none of this. It presents a good driving simulation wrapped in a soulless game still full of the many deficiencies that should've been fixed by now.
But does every racing game have to be GT? It is obvious that the Turn10 team for better or worse, I have my list of gripes with the game, went for a more get ton racing/get to upgrading title. They didn't bother to go for "history of" as I'm assuming they felt to some extent that was done in the previous 7 titles. People say it's _"soulless"_ but I disagree, I find that in the actual racing where, despite its shortcomings, it is actually pretty good. There are even some good online races to be had, as not everyone is just a noob rammer anymore. IMO, anyone can feel free to disagree with *my opinion* Forza doesn't need to be GT 7, and I think they have tried to make a racing game that isn't GT 7. Because if they had done that, to include all the "extra" that John mentioned in the title, a certain segment of the community would just b*tch about Forza just copying everything GT does. 🤷♂
They were making a new engine as well as making the game. That's what they were doing. FM is running on a new engine, and they still managed to pull off what they did. How long has poliphony been using this engine for now?
@davidandrew6855 Here is the issue... Forza Motorsport as an IP was literally created to be a GT clone by Microsoft for Xbox. They created Turn 10 specifically to compete with Gran Turismo. If they wanted to copy GT, they should... they never really did, and that is fine too. The problem there is if you aren't going to copy paste game content from one series to your own... you should still do a great job making your own game, which Turn 10 never did. Forza 1-7 were more complete as games, but the biggest issues John is outlining here affected *ALL* Forza games, not just Forza Motorsport, but also Forza Horizon! The cars never looked great in Forza games (including Horizon though somehow Playground Games managed to seat their cars into the world better than Turn 10). The tracks were never accurate in Forza Motorsport here they're the most accurate Forza Motorsport has ever seen and as still quite different from GT7's. The cars finally have an upgraded headlight and taillight shader model in Forza Motorsport that still doesn't manage to look as nice or accurate as GT games on PS3 never mind measuring up to GT7 on PS5. The basic thing of a racing simulator is to make the cars look nice and accurate... Forza Motorsport never cared. Electronic Arts (EA) has done a better job representing cars accurately on PS4 and Xbox One in Need For Speed than Turn 10 has done in Forza Motorsport (2023) on PC and Xbox Series X! That's not a good look. If you are trying to be a sim... the cars should handle similarly, but GT7 is closer to AC:C while FM23 is in it's own strange land that most people honestly say feels wrong. There are so many aspects of FM that don't work well outside of the raw gameplay. Most racing games at this point strive to be GT-like and that's because GT is a great series.
While speaking about Nürburgring at 52:02, they actually used the track "Awakening" from Enthusia: Professional Racing. That alone makes this video extraordinary. Awesome content, John and DF editors.
Puddle thing is weird because FM7 had them but players complained about them so they added assist that would allow players to drive without worrying about puddles. Now they seem to have abandoned them completely.
@@UltraCasualPenguinnot actully true, you lost a lot of the control when you hit those puddles in fm6 it was not dynamic but it did effect your handling when you hit those puddles
@@UltraCasualPenguin no fm6 becouse it was the first forza to have this feature, and it got more advanced into fm7 but fm6 was in my opinion a better game, fm 23 is the worst of the 3,
Only half way through the video and just so many great details! Comparisons with Google Maps were an interesting approach that I really appreciate. Amazing efforts DF! Also, I am not sure about the gameplay aspect of each of these, but can I just say that Turn 10 needs to accept an L at least visually this gen. GT7 looks closer to life and FM just looks sorta game-y.
No other racing game looks as beautiful as GT7 and with some many details everywhere. Playing this game on an HD CRT, OLED TV and PSVR2 is out of this world.
Have both games and I am totally agree with your points, GT7 is the best, playing it regularly since the release, love the updates, especially latest (Spec II, revamp and stuff).
This is probably my new favorite DF video because you can hear the love and passion you have for racing games throughout the video, and it shows in the amount of content you showcased. 10/10 will watch again.
John I appreciate all the time you took here. I wish the Forza Team would have also been as interested in chasing excellence as a TH-cam game analyst. Well done, my man.
I gotta say that Real Life looks spectacular. But GT7 nailed illumination. The color of the Sky and Grass are far more realistic. Yeah, that's why i like Playstation, it's expansive but I like the way they do things.
Great breakdown. The growds not casting a shadow isn't really a minor thing though, it makes the crowd looks like it's floating without their shadows and grass around. Edit: Forgot to mention the Tracksigns at 23:56: Forza Motorsports sign has a typo and has Weclcome written instead of Welcome ;)
Oof, the typo isn't good. It means they're entering text strings manually into their design tools. That's a massive workflow problem so there are probably typos riddled throughout the assets.
Most people probably don't understand the amount of work that goes into videos like these. Thank you for the quality work DF 🙏
Facts
Totally agree. Bless them for being so diplomatic. It's obvious that Polyphony have the edge but they're still very positive about Forza. IGN's comparison was obviously subjective and favoured Forza. What do you expect when it was hosted by one of the Xbox stans. I'm sure they're paid by MS or severely deluded. Ryan McCaffery should watch this, learn something about objectivity.
He posted on Twitter he has 90 hours in Forza and he never has really played the game. Now that is academic research.
Yeah but I expect PC vs PC and not PC vs console like we saw on that video
@@IHateEnglish10282 What do you mean? Forza runs much worse on PC in my experience than it does on console and GT7 is only available on console so what do you mean?
I'm blown away by how accurate the treelines are in GT. It's something most people will never notice until they see a side-by-side comparison like this but it shows how much care and attention went into recreating these tracks.
Same here mate!
As an astronomer I am delighted by how realistic GT7s night sky represents the stars and contellations. It's not 100% but the main contellations are there and star maginitudes are represented very well indeed.
It warms my heart when games based on Earth have an accurate night sky for me to look at and enjoy.
I hope you don't drive with your head amongst the stars lol
Have you ever seen the UFO 🛸 beam up the cow in GT7 best Easter egg ever😂😂
The crazy thing is they did this already with GT6 on the PS3. I remember they used mount panorama for their demonstration
Also: remember the moon missions?
@@tgreg9542You’re lying wtf
@@NexGenTek
There are easter eggs in GT7 (not sure if they still exist, but they used to).
This transcends far beyond a 'graphical breakdown', and is what it looks like when someone is in love with what they do, up to, and including complete mastery of it. Bravo John.
Very nice quality in fact.
@@purwantiallan5089 Yet somehow made it biased still. I've noticed that they do this, mostly because to please their fans on any sides.
Huge respect for this video, can't imagine the hours put in. Also mega props for platforming a few of the issues with the newest Forza Motorsport, to have it come from such a respected publication when big reviewers just glossed over them is refreshing and very helpful overall. I hope we see a GT Sport to GT7 style glow up to the game in the future.
Extra shoutout for the DRIVECLUB music, rip sweet prince
Hi how r ya
Mad respect for Theo and John for covering different aspects of those racing games. Theo always has good criticism for gameplay and the feel of the game from the consumer perspective, like how the servers are running, any cool playlist this week? Are the cops present, are they tough? How's the progression? Is it grindy? IS IT FUN? As for the other side of things, DF has a surgical eye for all things tech-related. Why isn't it running great? How does it run with RT? Is the HDR implementation good enough? Frame times, frame drops, what causes it, and so on. Very fortunate to have such high-level quality information available. Thx guys!
I agree that most people don't fully understand but I think people who follow DF will generally have a good understanding, otherwise (generally speaking) you wouldn't bother watching the videos.
You can't imagine the hours put in?
You can't imagine a 40hr workweek? Lol. This was on John's plate for the last week or so.
Just a small note on crowd movement. While it's more engaging to see them waving and whatnot, at actual races people really aren't fanatically waving like at a football game.
Thank goodness someone has finally said it
@@IngrownMink4 ah i see you are a man of culture
No, they just stand/sit still watching the race through the camera lens of their phone 😢
Yes! Thought I was going crazy seeing people prefer the crazy crowd constantly waving in Forza. They look much better than before, but it's so less realistic than GT
I don't frantically wave my arms at football games either.
John I don't normally comment on videos, but this was beautiful. The quality and presentation was top tier. It has that Sunday cosy vibe to it and I need more videos like this. I wish it was longer. Well done!
GT7 is a true love letter to racing. The menus, the soundtrack - its all creates an amazing space to learn about and engage in motorsports
Como querem compar um jogo de services com o jogo play station,
I just love being in the gran tursimo world, I saved my pocket money for the 1st game and a massive fan. It's all just perfect.
Excluding the grinding part, other than that its a great game imo
Only thing Forza is better is physics. The car feel more like a real car. The graphics sometimes are better also. I have both and love both btw
@@Lordicus21i would say crash physics but only in some instances. GT physics just aren't as consistent but I wouldnt say the over all visuals and physics are better. The driving feels more realistic imo
Both games are stunning but after this video I can only have much more appreciation for Polyphony's eye for detail. The likeness to the real world counterparts are insane.
Oh yeah. Polyphony's attention to detail is second to none. Can hardly wait to see how much attention detail, they will put into GT8.
@@avalonr.s.1438 it will be more. remember, gt7 is a ps4 game in mind. cross gen game never show true potential of the newer console.
But gran turdismo 7 looks like some anime with it's over saturated colors. Forza Motorsport looks more like real life.
@@bungwohlioI disagree
GT7 on first launch and in settings has exposure and saturation controls@@bungwohlio easy to make it look way less saturated if that's what you want.
19:42 Tyres spilling out would actually be a red flag in real life since lost tires are a safety hazard so they're usually belted together, or stuck on a tubular inner frame. Strange case of where trying to be "realistic" actually makes the game not realistic.
Yeah especially in modern times, Forza could be realistic in the old days where there was loose tire bundles but that's many years ago now.
Or it's just artistic licence to give a bit of dynamism to the environment.
But tyre walls deform and move IRL to take the impact of the collision, yet in GT they look like concrete.
absolute realism would also mean a crash means your car is totalled, you might get killed or worse... expelled!
@@herrboogieHermione 😂
These kinds of videos should be called the DF Masterpiece Series, because that's what they are. Top-tier content.
'DF Self-Congratulatory Series'
John lineman is the best
I like how they commented an hour long video minutes after its been up but without even watching it it's a masterpiece apparently
@@Baguenaudeur Because John always posts awesome stuff, his content is some of the best in the videogame world.
@@BaguenaudeurJust finished watching it and now about to watch It again. And it is a masterpiece. Were there ever any doubts?
This video is an incredible effort. GT7 has been one of the best games of the entire generation for me. The love put into this game...hardly seen on any other.
totally. been playing it since ps1 1995
Couldn't agree more. Turn10 attention to detail is seen at 23:55 .... "Weclcome" seriously hahahah...
While it was certainly an incredible effort (PD’s love for everything cars has always shown through in their work in a beautiful way), the actual “game” part of it was lacking imo.
If they had the career from previous GT’s and kept everything else the same then it would be amazing, but as it is, it’s nothing more than fetch quests but for cars. “Beat this race and we’ll give you a car, do that 3 times and I’ll give you another 3 races to beat” and so on… I remember GT3, 4, and 5; it was a genuine accomplishment to get to the GT World Championship and finally beat it, only to be thrust into endurance races that’ll eat your entire life.
GT7’s Championship was just another race for me and it was just underwhelming… I honestly didn’t realize what it was until after I won and the trophy appeared… and afterwards? Oh, do some more races and you’ll win a roulette ticket which will give you $10k or a car part you’ll never use
@@Kekszbelow 26:08 CRAPstation S U X , Xbox Rocks
26:10 CRAPstation S U X , Xbox Rocks 💪😎
Kazunori Yamauchi and his team are really talented. And to think GT7 was a cross gen game. GT8 will be glorious.
Yeah, especially considering the PS5 Pro rumours for next year.
You can wait for gt8 lol quite some time probably on ps6
@@gordjy I haven't picked up a ps5 yet but when I do I'm getting gt5 for sure. The benefit is I'll have access to all the releases dlc
@@jesusgarciacruz9059 to be honest I recon a ps5 pro is not needed atm. We haven't even seen the full potential of ps5.
@@Homesbykiawe haven’t, imo I think series x and Xbox just haven’t been fully used correctly yet
Another detail I hoped you noticed are the full colour LED screens around the track in GT7, if you go close and zoom in you'll see that the pixels are individually and realistically rendered, to the point that you can see the RGB channels the same way you would if you put a magnifying glass in front of a real screen.
This is fucking amazing lol. The attention to not just detail but legitimate tricks in visual representation of tech/surfaces is honestly mindboggling.
fuckin mind blowned, kaz and his team is insane
@@DearFreja it's so convincing that we might probably just be able to live in GT's world 😂
@@darknez09240yep. The GOATED WORLD of Gran Turismo basically.
🤩
Probably the best video I've ever seen from DF, and that is already an incredibly high bar to cross. Great achievement, congrats John! Would have loved to hear some words on VR, and perhaps a detailed audio comparison, but we can't all be here for another hour ;)
For VR at least, John did cover it during his actual GT7 video at the time. Just in case you hadn’t seen it.
@@thanksbetotapPSVR2 in GT SPORT and 7 feels incredible.
It really is an amazing video. It's on par with DF Retro: Quake as my favorite gaming video ever.
55:40 "Though for this particular effect my heart is still with Driveclub" - exactly what I was thinking! An outstanding comparison you've done here, just incredible. (as always) - DF is the David Attenborough nature documentary of gaming.
driveclubs rain blew me away back in 2014, nothing looked as good as it, and still games are barely coming close
After hundreds of hours in GT7 I got used to the graphics, but man, this video really makes me appreciate again how breathtaking it looks. Gorgeous, gorgeous looking game.
My jaw dropped at the headlight details. Like, holy mfkng shiet.
I don't know, I only play this game in VR. VR looks good, but with downgrades. However, once you play it in VR, you can't go back. Having a stiff forward view in turns really hurts the driving experience.
As when you lose control in a car(sliding on ice, and such), it is necessary to look in the direction you wish to go. You can only do this in VR, and every corner is better when you can do this.
@@datruth4766 forza horizon 5 (haven't played motorsport this year) has an option that will let you turn your head and will even do it automatically when turning so that may be something you could use
@@laughingseal2282 It's a lot more noticeable on some older cars, namely late 80s and 90s road cars where lights with just bulbs behind colored plastic. GT7 captures the look of them astoundingly well
This. It's insane. I can't believe they did this much granular detail.
This video is wonderful, and it has truly given me an entirely new appreciation for the level of detail Polyphony put into GT7. It's actually astounding their attention to detail and how much they clearly stress realism. Forza looks fine, it's a pretty game, but GT7 just looks unbelievable.
It's really sound ridiclous, but i wish DF someday can compare GT Sport and NFS 2015. The reason i pick NFS 2015 is because how incredible the graphics is, even till this day, some games can't do what NFS 2015 do. The main competitor to GT for "photorealistic" graphics area.
In vr heaven
Why cars take long be added and to add three a month pretty cool to at no Extra cost
Facts
@@prapanji9976Nfs2015, while night only, is still the best racing games graphics wise, absolutely blew my mind when it came out, and still does when I play it
GT7 in VR is a beast of its own too
Not to mention the vr party trick of helmet reflections in mirrors and shiny interior surfaces, among many other features
Just ordered vr and a wheel… excited to give it a go
Sure is
Lol
Man it’s so good!
So much love for racing was poured into this incredible racing sim that is GT7. Poliphony really did an awesome job here.
It's too bad Sony gutted that game for all it's worth with the Store
@shadowmover63 I don't know, I haven't touched the store at all. I was just grinding for credits and have no complaints on that part.
What store? 😕
@SuPeRz4ever I understood the Store as microtransactions. Don't know why people hate on it when it's completely optional and just for buying credits which you can earn by playing.
@@TheyBenefit Most likely not Sony's decision, but rather Polyphonys desire to meet quotas.
The shot at 1:34 perfectly illustrates what I love so much about GT7. The quality of materials is just completely unparalleled. Multi layer car paint is just done so well, and the way light bounces off the reflectors is almost flawless. Forza has some things going for it but the attention to detail in GT7 is just insane.
That's because Turn 10 are still recycling models from as far back as 2005. Polyphony stripped back their car list and started to rebuild with laser scanned models. Turn 10 refuse to do this, they may have 700+ cars but the vast majority are inaccurate and low quality.
@@themarauder6108 sorry but materials quality has almost nothing to do with the modelling of the cars. Some cars in Forza are modelled really well, but yeah others are pretty awful. None of that affects things like the paint and light reflection on surfaces.
@@darvo110 I never said anything about material quality, reflections and paint surfaces. The models themselves aren't to the same standard as GT because they haven't been updated in years.
@@themarauder6108But they were talking about materials..
So why are you replying to them if your statement has nothing to do with car paints and materials in the first place?@@themarauder6108
Fantastic video! One missed detail for comparison - how tracks dry up after rain. GT7 has excellent system for that.
I know John put a lot of hard work into this, so I’m gonna find an hour in my day to watch every minute. much appreciated John. Bespoke Kudos to you sir.
WHO IS JOHN???
ARE YOU JOHN? THANK GOODNESS WE FOUND HIM@@SoyAntonioGaming
@@SoyAntonioGaming John Linneman is the person speaking in the video.
@@pillington1338 His name is John Linneman.
His name is John Linneman.
His name is John Linneman.
Just got GT7 based on this video - for £30 too! I thought that Forza looked brilliant on Xbox series x but am blown away by GT7 gfx. Great job Mr Linneman.
It's not just the better GT7 graphics but car and track accuracy. They are simple closer to the real tracks that make it believable that you are racing on something that exists in real life.
I haven't played GT in years, last time I played was only a couple hours on PS2 with GT4, I skipped the PS3 and even though I own a PS4, I never played GT Sport, and after giving GT7 one year to cool my head because of the MTX fiasco at launch, I find that I very much enjoy the game, the driving model, soundtrack, menu design, it's all just so... singularly GT, I have enjoyed very much putting in an hour a day in it for the past few months.
There's still stuff I hate about the game (AI could be better, roulettes make me mad, the freaking expensive legendary cars, etc, etc) but the experience of actually sitting down and playing it is great.
@@JFinnsidk when I'm racing I'm not really looking for scenic beauty spots, it's racing 😂
Gran Turismo is not just a game, it's a hommage to the love of cars. Every car designer will name it first when you ask him to name a car game.
Its also a hommage to the love of microtransactions.
@@ownzuallTalking like Forza hasn't released a billion paid DLCs for Horizon while GT7 gets free monthly updates
@@ownzuallMicrotransactions have become SO greedy they should be called *macrotransactions.*
@@ownzuall
These aren't required in GT7 nor in GT6 where they were first introduced if we ignore some paid DLC for GT5.
@@ownzuall Uhhh, are you really saying that like Forza doesn't bombard with DLC cars only accessible through DLC all the time? Like a shit ton....
I really love how Gran Turismo matched the formation and heights of the trees, that really shows an attention to detail of what it's like to drive not just on the track surface itself, but through that location too. It's one of those things that a regular racer of the track would notice was missing.
I think one thing that Forza has over GT that wasn't mentioned is the actual texture of the paint, where you can see this warbled, pitted-like quality in the reflection edges that isn't there in GT.
Overall this video's a great demonstration at how one tackled representing the real world, and both of them will be subjectively better or worse. I personally prefer the more high contrast, saturated and authentically-detailed look of GT7, but there's things like rain and damage that I think Forza presents better.
Fantastic video!
Didn't expect to see you here, KFBF! Glad you're an enjoyer of the racing genre as well, I don't expect too many in the kf community to be haha!
Hey, it's KBABZ!
The "orange peel" paint effect IS present in GT for classic cars with an older paint formula. It's not there for new cars because new car paint are smooth and mirror-like in real life as well.
@@kaifengwu6565 Yes the "orange peel" seems misplaced when it's on modern cars.
@@wickedjuice I will say orange peel is definitely a thing on modern cars, perhaps not as severe but still very much visible
The attention to detail regarding the treelines in GT7 isn't just impressive, but utterly bizarre! It's insane how they choose to model all these different trees in pursuit of accuracy.
They also got the type of trees right which seems like a basic detail to get right
It's a racing simulator, you can't call yourself a simulator if you don't simulate the track as accurately as possible, forza just wanted to try and make their game seem more ' busy ' at the expense of realism even it means the tracks wouldn't look accurate.
@@adrianhosein7698 I don’t know if that is entirely fair though. The act of driving, with the physics and actual layout of the drivable track playing a more substantial role, the visuals surrounding it aren’t as important I’d argue.
Whether GT7 or Forza is the winner in that regard though I wouldn’t be able to tell, since I’ve only ever played GT7.
@Ozziw162 Agreed. The "simulator" refers to car physics/handling and the track. The rest like outside the track areas and weather are just flourishes AND if it wasnt for this video, no one would even now or notice if the track side detail is accurate or not.
😂😂
Thanks for taking a deep dive into this comparison! I've always admired how much attention to detail Gran Turismo always had, and the vibe was always around the love and care of cars and motorsports history
I'm glad you're bringing up differences between the games and real-world environment updates. I'm not familiar with how Forza has handled this in the past, but GT7 did actually update the environment for the Fuji track earlier this year. A hotel was built just outside the last corner of Fuji within the past couple years, and GT7 added this in a 2023 update. It's kind of funny that they added it because the hotel is almost universally despised for "ruining" the view of Mt. Fuji, but nevertheless it is true to life. I would expect GT7 to slowly add these types of updates to the game.
Fantastic video. One point I would make on how GT7 depicts trackside detail and their attention to accuracy is that it's not just about being "real", many of these things, like treelines, towers, even small bumps, are used by drivers as reference points for breaking, position on the track, etc. First time I drove at the Nürburgring I was amazed at how accurate GT was (Sport at the time, this was before 7 even). I felt like I knew the track, my very fast lap I was doing decent times already.
Know exactly what you mean. Got to tick driving Nürburgring off my bucket list last year. Like you say, there wasn’t one surprise for me driving the track for the first time. Every corner as I’d come to expect from playing GT, every crest, every bump. That real-life sensation though, how good was it!?
@@scottdaniels8904Amazing, yet scary as I was racing with my daily driver at the time, a MX5 NC. Still I spent the entire weekend driving there, it was a surreal experience overtaking a G series 911 only to be overtaken a few moments later by a freaking Huracan. Also I saw more GT3s in those 2 days then in my entire life 😂
@@Metalmurphy I wish I can drive in Nürburgring too
@@scottdaniels8904 Moneybags over here...
6:50 , 26:10 CRAPstation S U X , Xbox Rocks
Man the lighting on GT7 is second to none. PD are wizards
Wizards that will shut down their servers to make the game unplayable like GT Sport one day
@@jollama like GT7 is not online-only, yeah...
@@jollamaacting like Turn 10 didn't do the same with FM7 a year before GT Sport shut down😂😂😂
@@jollama Watch the new Forza Motorsport get delisted in a couple years like the last one 😂
Forza Motorsport's lighting looks extremely good too, and I can't wait to see how it looks on PC once it gets RTGI, which should be early next year.
I will be forever in awe of the magic displayed by the wizards at Polyphony Digital. The whole driving experince they deliver is a unique crossover between art and design and technolgy. Masterful. Also Huge fan of the musc selection aswell. Love the Chris Hülsbeck track and also DMC5!
I also a massive fan of music selections in Gran Turismo. Is it possible to listen anime soundtracks in GT7 via custom songs from PS4 or PS5 Internal Storage?
@@purwantiallan5089 Not sure if it's possible from the storage; but I noticed GT automatically silences the music if you use spotify in the background on the ps5!
I have a pretty bad ass PC and a sim rig.... But I really Wana try out GT7 so I'll probably buy a ps5 to... I'll need one any ways to play GTA 6 when that comes out anyways.......
@@aprilionorange6414and if you turn down the music a bit it blends so well
Polyphony are literal masters of their craft.
Gran Turismo 7 in VR is incredible and needs to be seen to be believed.
iv seen it and honestly... not that impressed coming from pc vr... its still a console in the end.
@@Eskoxofair point but PC vr is generaly much more exspensive compared to ps VR2
I have it and it's amazing. Don't listen to any PC master race bots acting like PC is better. It's not. Yes, the graphics can be a little better, but that doesn't matter when the games are shittier. I've tried plenty of games that PC master race try telling me are better and they are just not.
@@errormachine5056 Graphics are way better it's a fact not an opinion... and as far as sim racing games its better on pc many more options in games and gear you can use not to mention vr support in most of them... thats not to say ps5 is bad it's just for different people who just want to play a game and not mess with 100 settings.
@@thatmemeguy2520 that is debatable when comparing the cost of games over long term use... it's just for different kind of people console is more for people who do not want to mess with setting plug and play on tv... i have both but mostly use pc due to better vr support in more racing games.
In GT7 you can feel the developers' love for cars
True, There was a time when we could say the same for forza, Its soo sad to see.
But not for gamers which is odd 🤔
And their love for people to spend real money to even be able to earn most of them unless you're a no lifer grinding hours per day. Gt has fallen just as much as Fm has when it comes to game quality the past ~5 years.
Both series copy each others half ass attempts of making a racing game and see how low they can go before sales are affected negatively.
Yes, the inaccurate details in Forza is infuriating. Wrong speedometer backlight, wrong taillights litting up, etc. like the MX5 LED taillights at 31:06
The game opening cinematic says it all. Made with passion.
Great video, John! Really enjoyed. One thing you missed is the way GT7 simulates a drying up track: it's just outstanding and I often play races with mixed conditions just so that I can witness it.
Yeah, but the drying up path is predetermined, unfortunately. A perfect example of that is shown on one of Super GT's videos when he raced on a rainy High Speed Ring - the final corner's inside was drying off despite everybody driving on the outside of that corner.
Yes, that's a big omission. I was thinking the same.
gt7 + psvr2 is so damn immersive. i constantly am in awe of the vehicles as i pass by
gt7 is such a mid game, its 120 dollars plus ps plus for online and vr for 1000 dollars (aud)
I have a ps5 but hate gt7.
Yeh you missed this whole bit out @DF John.... GT7 in VR is a massively different experience and since trying can't drive without. (I'm a much better driver in VR than on screen!)
It's a completely transformative experience.
don't know it did not look anything super spectacular to me on psvr2 but it's probably because i mostly play in vr on pc.
Just wait for sales. I got GT7 for $20 USD recently. VR2 will probably go on sale next year sometime too @@rileyvosper411
I played so much GT7 since it came out, I can't even make sense of it, I don't know why, the game just feels good. Then when I was starting to go away from it, the VR mode came out and it lit my fire for it for some months again. It was great, really the best game that I played the most this generation thus far.
Can't wait for the next one!
Especially the much added challenge on Master License tests too.
John's been talking about this for so long, I can't believe it's finally out. What a meaty video.
GT7's car rendering is a whole generation ahead
Bravo! This was an incredibly impressive video. I can’t imagine the amount of work it took to put this together. You’ve outdone yourself John. Props to the whole digital foundry team.
As a car and motorcycle enthusiast and a casual trackday rider. There is one important visual detail GT7 absolutely nails, rubber marbles that build up during the race outside the racing line and dry or drier lines where the car in front of leaves on the track as its tires displace the water.
This is a really cool comparison. Just want to say that I love GT7’s tarmac reflections, which add a lot of visual interest during races.
Johns videos about racing games are always so good. The music and production are good enough on their own to be quality entertainment, but the actual critical content is great too. Thank God for John.
Excellent video John. As a fan of GT series from the PSX to PS5 era, I agree there is more ‘passion’ in GT series. But I do agree both Forza and GT are excellent having enjoyed both.
It's stunning to me how realistic these real-time rendered cars look in modern racing games. Some of the shots here really could be mistaken for photographs at first glance.
No they dont they look way too vibrant and everything has way too much reflection. I get its a new technology with ray traced reflections and they want to show them off but nothing in life is as reflective as in racing games like everything has a light layer of cooking oil all over it.
@@HaulinbassracingI mean, gaming - even 'realistic' gaming - is an exaggeration of reality. It's just like any other medium in that sense.
I'd say *sometimes* these kinds of games do feel photoreal.
Gran Turismo has largely mastered replays and replay angles. Some of the onboard footage from the GT World Series event at the Nurburgring also integrated some camera-tracking to focus on the car ahead, and it frankly looked better than real life lmfao. And let’s not get started on some of the VR footage
@@Haulinbassracing🤓
You mean gran Turismo. Not forza 3
Gran Turismo has soul and is very clear that it was made by people with passion and love for cars
The Person who created Gran Turismo does in fact love cars , hell he even raced once....
Kazunori Yamauchi (山内 一典) ...
It has an incredible level of passion behind it, but it also knows how to adapt the feeling of driving and racing in to a game far better than Forza ever will. I say this as an Xbox owner. To be honest GT7 looks so nice, I'm tempted to get a PS5 just to play it.
Gran Tourismo is one of the most soulful game series ever made.
@@natecollins9331
More than once he has at least a couple podium finishes with Nissan at the 24hrs of nurbergring.
The thing is gran Turismo was created out of love made& hidden in another game before Sony ever wanted it. Meaning the Creator Kazunori made it without being paid or even knowing if Sony would green light it, that is love, he was not thinking this is gonna sell well and pay off, (that's Microsoft with a me 2 money grab) polyphony only knew they love cars and wanted to share that love with the world. The game bleeds passion and I feel it when I play better yet, or partake n the simulation experience, it's to real to be called a game
23:54 Forza spelt Welcome wrong
FC Bayern stern des südens
Embarrassing! It isn't written in cursive like the original sign either.
LMFAOOO
All i can say is. GT7 in VR is fuckin Amazing 😩
@@fj06carnone That is such a system-seller to me. I don't have a PSVR2 yet. Even if you don't play racing titles that often/seriously, there is something magical about racing on the tokyo highway at night. I only experienced that on PSVR and GT sport.
Still haven't pulled the trigger because I'm still debating whether it's going to be this or a Quest 3 or some other random challenger in a year or so. (wouldn't mind a surprise valve anouncement).
But I wonder what PCVR racing titles there are, that can deliver these kinds of experiences.
You’re gonna make me buy VR 😩😩
VR is amazing bro do it!
Shame the graphics sucks tho
@@Jeff.55649 wow, what a valuable member of the gaming community you are.
My dude, just enjoy games instead of mindlessly hating in order to validate your own choices.
Man, there’s something about the car paint in GT7. It looks convincingly real
How??? Not every car in the real world has that glossy paint job like its just been buffed up & polished. So how's that realistic?? Unbelievable.
@@andyjefferson1308cry
@@andyjefferson1308stop crying😂
@@andyjefferson1308Really, calm down with the cope, my god lmao
It's just shiny.....
😂😂😂
23:00 this whole google maps comparison is a total win for GT. Super impressive! Mind you I am not biased, as I play neither of these games (or any other racing game for that matter)
Amazing work for this video, massively appreciated to see videogame's details highlighted in this way. Personally though, GT7 for me is just hands down the better looking game, Polyphony are masters of realistically modelling cars.
It's crazy how well GT7 holds up, those paint textures in close ups are just insane
And Remember an older cross gen game vs current gen game
@ArielCleirigh PD are working on GT8 as we speak. Cannot wait!
@@ArielCleirighyea that point really shouldn’t be forgotten. Gt7 just destroying forza these days.
"Holds up" lol like the game was made 10 years ago lol.
After GT7 was released, polyphony have continually upgraded visual elements and will continue to do so for a long time.
@@ArielCleirighI thought GT7 released last year for only PlayStation.
We really appreciate all the work you all put into your videos. This was an incredible comparison.
GT7 is such a beautiful game. Also I loved the Driveclub music in the background!
DF! No other like it among video game & tech channels. Plus, they got John the GGR (GOAT Game Reviewer)! Thank you for pouring your passion into this 😁
GT7 being a cross gen game...too good
Can’t wait for gt8 next year
next year is very optimistic but I also cannot wait@@AlexAparicio
Both games are cross generation/platform games. Both studios are some of the best artists and engineers in the entire industry.
I see nothing good about game being cross gen. How many times are we gonna get half assed games made so the old boxes can pull it?
@@SUPERFunStick FM is only on Series X/S though, not Xbox One
I worked on _Need For Speed_ (PS1) and it is simply stunning how far these simcades have evolved.
Lighting and fun is subjective so it is great to compare and contrast these two titans and what they prioritize.
Could you get your team back together and make NFS games like those again? I miss NFS games like 1, 2, Hot Pursuit and Porsche Unleashed!
What's a simcade?
Question for you: What was EA's reasoning for toning down the realism for PS1 and Saturn compared to the 3DO and DOS versions?
@@aetiusgdon't forget High Stakes, so good
@@mja101 Mix between a simulation and arcade, nor GT or FM are real simulations and of course also not arcade in any way. The Assetto Corsa games, iRacing etc. are proper simulations, NFS is arcade, I think NFS Shift 1 and 2 can be considered simcades too, not sure
VR showroom in GT7 is the perfect way to admire the car models. You can put your face right up to the wheels and you will hardly ever see polys. Looking around the bumpers and lights, you will NEVER see polys.
We can compare visuals of both games until the sun explodes, but when it comes to connecting with the cars, the heart of the game. GT really nails it.
Brand central could have you spending days looking through car brands and models and learning the history, watching the visuals as you choose a colour. It's really something to appreciate and adds an extreme amount of value to GT
This! Been playing GT7 for a month since I copped a ps5 and omg. I did not have the same connection with forza Motorsport 7 and the new one😢
GT7 is a work of art. The tail and head lights are *chefs kiss*
GT7 also has VR... I Hope PS5 Pro is somehow capable of keeping the RT on and 1440 or 4k 120... not to mention an update to the VR, it's the best VR experience I had with the steering wheel on Laguna I'd literally anticipate warmth on my arms as the sun passed through the windshield just to remember I'm still in a game, and same with the corkscrew, you expect to feel the drop down the hill, then don't, it's an extremely impressive tech masterpiece.
Yeah. According to the rumors the PS5 Pro will be pretty capable of ray tracing.
@@parazels83yeah my only wishes for it really are higher core clocks, more RT cores, and more base storage. Probably 1-1.5TB just to keep the price In a good place, and just keeping the ability to upgrade if you really need it.
@@parazels83 yea i would not pay too much attention to marketing even a 4090 struggles with ray tracing and pro will be like 1/4th the power.
The issue will be memory. It's rumored that the PS5 pro will still use 16GB of RAM just at a faster speed. Ray Tracing and high resolutions are memory heavy.
@@BurritoKingdom maybe vram, but the only thing really "limited" by ram is texture resolution and poly count as far as graphics go. The render resolution and ray tracing are primarily driven by GPU core count (especially dedicated RT cores) and core clock speed. Faster Vram is mainly good for giving the GPU more headroom to start processing queued frames ect. But since they're using rdna3 architecture, vram would would be more likely to increase in capacity rather than speed for a performance boost because they don't rely as heavily on frame gen or SS tech as nvidia.
gt7 textures and lighting are gorgeous
Amazing video ! Thanks for the level of quality of this comparison ! ❤ I’m playing both of these games and my heart goes for GT7 finally. The love of cars is so present in many respects on these game...
GT7 is playing Christmas music now... attending to detail in Gran Turismo is extreme.
"attention to detail in Gran Turismo is extreme" this is why I love Japanese developers. With everything they seem to be like that.
Oh yeah, I loved that in GT Sport too. These games have the best menu music I've ever heard.
They've actually been doing this since all the way back in Gran Turismo 5! You can look it up on TH-cam for all the special holiday-themed menu scenes and BGMs lol
I don't play racing games
This is one of the best, most engaging videos you have made in a while, and I enjoyed every moment of it
With several years advantage GT still my fave... add VR and a steering wheel and headset makes it feel like a racing helmet cant be beat.
on my phone... hands down GT7 looks better in every way, we'll see about later on 60 inch C1
GT7 has come out almost 2 years before FM and is a cross gen game while FM is current gen only game/ pc. ( hardware advantage in my opinion)
Amazing job done from Polyphony digital 👌🏻
GT is a PS only game though while FM is at least available on PC and Xbox
The one thing I loved the most in GT7 is the personality it gives the other drivers across the entire game. Proper names (based of real people I guess? I've recognized some names from GT Academy) and dialogue made a huge difference in how I experienced the campaign.
I like it too. Some people hate it think it as a waste of time. Haven’t played Forza.
No offense but you're the first person I've seen that likes the game using real names. Seeing the same names at the top positions got old really quickly and took away that "realistic" feeling of older titles. Thankfully it can be changed to display car names instead. Looking forward to GT8 I really hope they drop it or leave them to certain events.
yup a majority of the names are competitors from their esports series! so i find it quite nice that they integrated their most dedicated players into the game itself
I actually don't like All the "characters" and that stuff. I rather old GTs on that aspect, where you read that info from a dedicated slot in the screen (if you wanted) instead of those text boxes poping up
If only they drove like their real life counterparts
Hi John, regarding the E46 M3; The car in Gran Turismo is rocking the standard '18 wheel package, whereas the one depicted in Forza us on the optional '19 wheel. In real life, the designs are similar but not identical, both are modelled very accurately here although I think the materials finish on the Gran Turismo car is a bit more accurate. :)
BMW M3 E46 in GT4 and 7 are equally pretty.
23:49 Forza did an oopsie. Notice how it says "Weclcome". 😂 It's also the wrong font.
fantastic video, john. i always know i'm in for a treat when i hear your voice. YOUR'RE WINNER.
I think that the biggest problem I have with the Forza visuals is the car paint. It gives the appearance like Forza has the subsurface scattering tuned up too high in the materials, giving the cars a softer, almost porous look in comparison. Still, it's minor, and not something I'd probably really pay attention to outside of a direct comparison like this!
Curious to see what the modding community can do with Forza on PC.
Car paint in Forza always looks like plastic. They never improve.
GT7 carpaint look better but FM definitely is closer this time around. GT7 suffer from last gen shadows though, the shadows underneath the car look horrible, makes the cars look floaty. Also the shadows from frontlights at night are really low res. Cars also have visible LOD pop in GT7.
gran turismo 7 lighting and materials is just on another level, can't get enough of weather transitions in that game.
Gran Turismo 7 is a masterpiece. Looks and feels amazing. And the VR mode is also really good!
LOL it's a good/decent GT game not masterpiece not even close. People call anything decent a masterpiece now days that the word lost it's weight in it.
@@lowendplayer4259 To be honest, Forza Motorsport does make GT7 look like a masterpiece
Let’s give a shout-out to Metropolis Street Racer on the Dreamcast, as I believe it was the first game to attempt to render realistic real world locations at good fidelity. All these games owe a debt to that pioneering effort.
They definitely don't. That game came out after Gran Turismo and Gran Turismo 2. It only came out a few months before Gran Turismo 3 even.
@@Nauzhror1216 I played Gran Turismo 2. It didn't render real world locations at good fidelity, IMO. Some tracks were based on real locations, but were cut down/modified, too.
Even GT 3, which launched months after it was not inspired by it, it was nearly complete when Metropolis Street Racer released.
@@Nauzhror1216 GT3 is less advanced than Metropolis Street Racer when it comes to realistic rendering of real world locations at good fidelity. Some courses were not an attempt to create a real world location. Others were inspired by, but not meant to be accurate recreations of, real world locations. As opposed to MSR whose courses were based on thousands of photos and hundreds of hours of video of real cities.
@@Nauzhror1216yep. It came out on 8th December 2000. Still amazing 23 years after release somehow.
You mentioned the tree line in the distance at 22:00 but I think the trees near the track are more important; that's what actual drivers use for timing their braking etc and they actually matched in GT7 instead of being seemingly random in Forza
Agreed. Accurate tree lines are very important for braking point markers.
Forza looks like they're trying to limit draw distance with thick foliage. Probably a technical limitation.
@@Ryukyus80 its also possible that they really liked their new tree models and just wanted to spray paint them all over. I admit its not just the trees; I prefer the look of GT in almost every shot of that video, especially paint quality and lighting.
This video may be Linneman's equivalent of Ulysses. What a titanic effort, well done.
That still goes to his PS3 1080p videos. More than 3 hours of content and many many games tested.
Johns the top guy. Always knows what he's talking about. GT7 developers attention to detail is unmatched in the industry. I believe there is a video somewhere where they talk about how they invested a lot of money into high tech cameras to capture paint.
GRAN TURISMO 7 should've won Best Racing Game Award of 2023 and not Forza Motorsport 8.
@@purwantiallan5089They won 2022 but sure
They all know what they’re talking about tbf.
I'm so glad this video was made. I wasn't sure if I was missing something but I always thought GT7 looked so much better after playing both. I just can't get immersed in FM even though I do think it has the better career mode.
23:46 the sign in Forza says "weclcome to" instead of "welcome to"
LMFAO how did they not catch that in development
Lmao 😂 this ☝🏾
oh lmao
the cars in GT 7 are still a generation ahead, its really impressive (I am a 3d Modeler myself) and I really have to say that PD has the best car modeler by far. the topology (polyflow) is so much superior compared to Forza... and I assume that PD is still using Tesselation for the cars, that makes it even more difficult to model and the polycount should be ast least twice if not tripple the forza cars. the Guys from PD stick way more to reality with the Tracks and the cars, that shows me the love PD has for racing games. I miss that with Forza. the Forza car models have hard knife sharp edges, which is totaly unrealistic. GT cars have soft and roundish edges, the polycount you need for that is 5-6 times higher AND its harder to model.
You can make rounded edges in shaders too without modeling it. But yeah the cars look better in GT7 also the lighting and shading is also better. But FM also has it's advantages. Track detail is better just compare the fences around the track. On GT7 they all look the same and have straight wires and it's the same with the tirebarriers.
And the craziest thing is they managed to pull this off on a cross gen title, making the game run and look good on a 10 year old console.
Amazing video. Thanks. I have both and enjoy them both. However, GT7 on PSVR2 is the best by a country mile.
The love, work and dedication behind this video is simply breathtaking. Congratulations for your work John, and the whole DF team.
I really appreciate how much effort John puts into these motorsport related videos, his passion really shows. For me its still GT in terms of visual advantage, something about it just feels like a premium designer brand.
You need to check your eyes lol
@@spawnersiakdid you close your eyes for an hour?
@@core4365 he must've lol!
@@spawnersiak check the video lol
FM was such a disappointment. It's shocking to me what Turn 10 was doing for 7 years compared to what Poliphony did. I understand they built a new engine, but what matters is end results. GT games aren't just great driving simulations, they're great games. There's a clear love for automotive history in them. The career modes hook you and you want to keep going. FM did none of this. It presents a good driving simulation wrapped in a soulless game still full of the many deficiencies that should've been fixed by now.
But does every racing game have to be GT? It is obvious that the Turn10 team for better or worse, I have my list of gripes with the game, went for a more get ton racing/get to upgrading title. They didn't bother to go for "history of" as I'm assuming they felt to some extent that was done in the previous 7 titles.
People say it's _"soulless"_ but I disagree, I find that in the actual racing where, despite its shortcomings, it is actually pretty good. There are even some good online races to be had, as not everyone is just a noob rammer anymore.
IMO, anyone can feel free to disagree with *my opinion* Forza doesn't need to be GT 7, and I think they have tried to make a racing game that isn't GT 7. Because if they had done that, to include all the "extra" that John mentioned in the title, a certain segment of the community would just b*tch about Forza just copying everything GT does. 🤷♂
They were making a new engine as well as making the game. That's what they were doing. FM is running on a new engine, and they still managed to pull off what they did. How long has poliphony been using this engine for now?
@@davidandrew6855 Why play forza if you can play gt7?
The games are objectively super comparable. THey are both driving simulators.
@@nihilityjoey The result is what that matters. Your argument is quite fallacious.
@davidandrew6855
Here is the issue... Forza Motorsport as an IP was literally created to be a GT clone by Microsoft for Xbox. They created Turn 10 specifically to compete with Gran Turismo. If they wanted to copy GT, they should... they never really did, and that is fine too.
The problem there is if you aren't going to copy paste game content from one series to your own... you should still do a great job making your own game, which Turn 10 never did. Forza 1-7 were more complete as games, but the biggest issues John is outlining here affected *ALL* Forza games, not just Forza Motorsport, but also Forza Horizon! The cars never looked great in Forza games (including Horizon though somehow Playground Games managed to seat their cars into the world better than Turn 10). The tracks were never accurate in Forza Motorsport here they're the most accurate Forza Motorsport has ever seen and as still quite different from GT7's.
The cars finally have an upgraded headlight and taillight shader model in Forza Motorsport that still doesn't manage to look as nice or accurate as GT games on PS3 never mind measuring up to GT7 on PS5.
The basic thing of a racing simulator is to make the cars look nice and accurate... Forza Motorsport never cared. Electronic Arts (EA) has done a better job representing cars accurately on PS4 and Xbox One in Need For Speed than Turn 10 has done in Forza Motorsport (2023) on PC and Xbox Series X! That's not a good look.
If you are trying to be a sim... the cars should handle similarly, but GT7 is closer to AC:C while FM23 is in it's own strange land that most people honestly say feels wrong.
There are so many aspects of FM that don't work well outside of the raw gameplay. Most racing games at this point strive to be GT-like and that's because GT is a great series.
What an episode John, wow! This is a work of love and it shows throughout the whole video.
While speaking about Nürburgring at 52:02, they actually used the track "Awakening" from Enthusia: Professional Racing.
That alone makes this video extraordinary. Awesome content, John and DF editors.
Polyphony work on car headlights is some black magic,it just looks like the real thing
Puddle thing is weird because FM7 had them but players complained about them so they added assist that would allow players to drive without worrying about puddles. Now they seem to have abandoned them completely.
@@IhorEleven No, it wasn't. Rain was only visual in FM6. There was no rain driving physics at all.
@@IhorEleven Wrong. That's FM7. In FM6 there was no difference between driving on dry vs wet track.
@@UltraCasualPenguinnot actully true, you lost a lot of the control when you hit those puddles in fm6 it was not dynamic but it did effect your handling when you hit those puddles
@@andreasmoller9798 Again you're talking about FM7.
@@UltraCasualPenguin no fm6 becouse it was the first forza to have this feature, and it got more advanced into fm7 but fm6 was in my opinion a better game, fm 23 is the worst of the 3,
Only half way through the video and just so many great details! Comparisons with Google Maps were an interesting approach that I really appreciate. Amazing efforts DF!
Also, I am not sure about the gameplay aspect of each of these, but can I just say that Turn 10 needs to accept an L at least visually this gen. GT7 looks closer to life and FM just looks sorta game-y.
No other racing game looks as beautiful as GT7 and with some many details everywhere. Playing this game on an HD CRT, OLED TV and PSVR2 is out of this world.
Have both games and I am totally agree with your points, GT7 is the best, playing it regularly since the release, love the updates, especially latest (Spec II, revamp and stuff).
1h7m?? This gonna be the longest bathroom break in my employer’s history.
This is probably my new favorite DF video because you can hear the love and passion you have for racing games throughout the video, and it shows in the amount of content you showcased. 10/10 will watch again.
This is the best un biased, detailed and level headed comparison I’ve ever seen.
Fantastic job DF
John I appreciate all the time you took here. I wish the Forza Team would have also been as interested in chasing excellence as a TH-cam game analyst. Well done, my man.
I gotta say that Real Life looks spectacular. But GT7 nailed illumination. The color of the Sky and Grass are far more realistic. Yeah, that's why i like Playstation, it's expansive but I like the way they do things.
Great breakdown. The growds not casting a shadow isn't really a minor thing though, it makes the crowd looks like it's floating without their shadows and grass around. Edit: Forgot to mention the Tracksigns at 23:56: Forza Motorsports sign has a typo and has Weclcome written instead of Welcome ;)
Haha good spot!
🧐😳
Oof, the typo isn't good. It means they're entering text strings manually into their design tools. That's a massive workflow problem so there are probably typos riddled throughout the assets.
Lol. Sums up Forza 8 perfectly
@@Muhlurieh, kinda, kinda not
Nice typo at 23:52 Forza! Weclcome??