@@evono9207 oh hell no, lsfg is far superior than fluid motion.. its been proven over time.. the reason why fluid motion can't compete with lsfg is that fluid motion is still new and needed more refinement... the only thing from AMD that compete with lsfg is fsr 3 frame gen..
@@Bodonism nah ,lsfg is slower x introduces up to 3x the latency than afmf or fsr3 , with way worse quality , hardware unboxed just analysed it and it's horrible bad. Good for what it is but
Thanks for covering this because I have to say many of the reviews say there are NO downsides at all with it, which is obvious bs. This is an amazing effect, though, when you have no other options. The developers deserve all the praise they receive!
there is nothing to praise, that has been done decades ago... its actually pretty bad in my opinion and the false name "losless" is a nogo at all. that is scam because there is a lot of loss in the quality
@@PrefoX "there is nothing to praise, that has been done decades ago." And he managed to capitalize on it, what's your point, I don't see any other readily accessible software that does what LS does? Even FSR mods are locked behind a patreon subscription. And there's no way you went going into this program thinking there's no loss in image quality just because of the name lmao, you must get "scammed" a lot. No where does the developer promise no loss in image quality and anyone with a shred of common sense would know that's to be expect when even more advanced tech like FSR/DLSS/XESS have degradation in image quality.
@@PrefoX The lossless claim refers to the scaling (it is in the name). Somehow i see comments like yours constantly when people are discussing this program, why the hate?
I'd love to hear more, what's so enjoyable about it? I love ff7 but I'm curious what's so special about playing a game like that at a higher refresh ratw
@@XDevonBueno It'd be quite an experience having the ability to witness FF7's combat system, which ran at 15fps, be able to run at a full 120fps. I'd imagine it would be quite daunting at first after being used to the game at such a low frame rate.
@@RicochetForce Ok thanks. By the way I checked out that Gaia mod. Crazy stuff they are doing now. Even crazier.....they just figured out a way to bring Aerith back. And the game works like that. After 27 years.....just crazy the things they have done on that game.
Tried Lossless scaling a month ago. Super happy with the program. But yeah. Everything you covered is exactly what people need to know. Definitely not a program to use blindly. But when it works, it can be a great boon.
You completely sold lossless gaming for me as I’m watching this at 2x speed on my 120hz iPad and I can feel the smoothness, I noticed the artefacts but it didn’t matter to me at all. I’ll 100% use it when I get a gaming laptop.
It might have been a relatively good option for scaling VNs in 2020, but at this point I'd highly recommend using Magpie for that purpose instead. It's much more efficient (especially when there are a lot of identical frames, as in most VNs) and has many more options that allow for more scalability & customisation, as well as being a free program.
@@gamerxt333What's this trend with people saying "What's this trend with people saying ____", do you require a medal for noticing that or something ? Weird...
The biggest issue i constantly see with users is they don’t actually know how frame gen works so they’re always surprised when 3x looks bad at 20 fps base with their intel uhd graphic
I actually used it at 20fps and thought it still looked really good. Granted I was also using it with Ocarina of Time with incredibly simple graphics but to me it looked nearly flawless. Only one I noticed was the distortion at the bottom of the screen. Doesn't really bother me much though as my screen has some vignetting.
@math3capanema I mean any visual bug looks better the higher the frame rate. Even aliasing is less obvious the higher the frame rate. Lossless Scaling's generation just works the same as the interpolation you have on TVs, it just views 2 frames and makes a median one. The flaws of 2x mode are easily missed because of the fact real frames make up the vast majority. The flaws show up most in scenes without logical motion like fire, explosions, particle effects, etc. It's also not great at dealing with extremely fast motion especially if there's motion blur. This is why the feature is best for games where things have very logical motion other than particle effects. Games also don't tend to have as many camera cuts removing that issue entirely. Lossless scaling can also be used with video as well just like the one on TVs. This means you can also combine this with Nvidia's upscaler making videos like 60% AI generated. It also shows how it works best on game footage over really anything else.
The best benefit of Lossless Scaling has to be the fact that, unlike modded solution, it does not tinker with any of the game code and processes. It simply captures the output like OBS would, and that means it plays nice with anti-cheat. In fact I pretty much played all of Shadow of the Erdtree with it and online.
Isn't that a waste. Elden Ring is archaic and fromsoft stupidly makes all their games 60fps hard cap. Despite being games you need amazing reaction time for
You can reduce significant latency by using an in-game frame limiter to cap the frames at half or a third of your monitor's frequency. You also need to disable in-game VSync. Only enable it through the LS application. I am using Lossless Scaling with my GTX 1080ti on a 4K TV, and with the LS upscaler plus 2x frame generation, I am extremely satisfied.
placebo. it doesn't work that way. it may be smoother and therefore feel like there is less latency, but it 100% will give more latency. but I agree that smooth frames instead of staters are more important than some minor delay, and give better visual results and are easier on the brain.
I got some free frames here mayne, it looks a little funny sometimes but i think you might still like it. it uses perfect symmetry in a geometric isotope to create a new reality mayne. enjoy.
9:16 I’m so glad Freedom Fighters is getting love in 2024. Love that game. Never forget getting the disc on PC and loading it up for the first time. Insane story but great gameplay
I specifically have been using this for games locked at 60 or games that run poorly at higher framerates like you said in the video Its genuinely just for fluidity and im really glad this program exists so i dont feel bad about complaining about games just for some reason not supporting the pc platform properly.
This software has been a life changer for me so far. My RX6700XT rig is still going strong but some of the newer games are really starting to put it through its paces, especially on my Ultrawide QHD 144hz monitor. Lossless Scaling means that those demanding games hitting only 50-60 can reach well over 100 again, which will tide me over until I eventually upgrade my GPU in a year or so.
The distortion at the border of screen remembers VHS tapes, if you're old enough to remember that :) when tapes often would play with some distortion or garbling at the top and/or bottom lines, often in old or low-quality recordings or because of misaligned heads etc.
@MarquisDeSang Our hard drives, all our fans, even some parts you didn't expect would SING - that's how you know it's Good Graphics. I miss those days and wish ppl still thought it like that. I want PC games that push 4090s into the 40s and lower FPS. I want POWER shown!!
One thing no one talks about is that there is an option in the LS app that massively reduces latency. if you click on the “Allow screen tearing” option the input is way better. It even says that in its description. It probably wont always work well but for me i have yet to notice any screen tearing and I use it all the time now.
With a vrr display, nvidia reflex/amd low latency, turning on screen tearing, and locked framerate it really boosts this tool's input latency and visual boost.
I just got this to try with Rome total War as that is hard to keep playable frame rates and this tool is a god send. The allowing tearing has improved latency too without any tearing, although I locked the frame rate to 30 and it feels smooth/playable now on either 2x or 3x frame generation (although 3x is a bit too much moving around alot)
@@skapunker1986 great to hear, it's really a god send in these classic games that only used one CPU core. even games like Fallout 3 which has engine issues if you go over 60fps, you can lock it to 60 and this boosts it 120fps with frame gen and I managed to play for hours without a single issue or crash
I just commented this before I read through the comments. Allow tearing in x2 makes the input latency imperceptable for me with mouse and keyboard in Helldivers 2. With it off it's honestly unplayable. Also I'm not sure why he couldn't get the game to be smooth locking frames with RTSS. Worked fine for me.
I was just trying to uncap The Evil Within. You posted this, I did it, it's fixed. I love it. Couldn't bear the low FPS and bow I can enjoy a good game again.
Hell yeah!! Sebastian is one of my favorite characters possibly in a game or one of them! Just a dope game, I really feel like it could still be revived one day, for a third game. RIP TangoGameworks
This software is great and definitely helps when you’re playing a game with technical shortcomings, like a UI that doesn’t scale properly on higher resolutions or older games that stutter. It works wonders for that
Artifacting is less of an issue than soap-opera effect. TVs all have had this functionality built in for over a decade now, and it wasn't used for games because it created too much latency. For TV and movies though, it's popular with the masses but enthusiasts hate it.
Ah, I'll have to give this a try. I normally play on the real hardware but I bought this and haven't been able to find a good use for it yet. I doubt my issues with its fg will be different in emulation but the upscaling options intrigue me. Thank you.
@andyccchan why do you say that? I've been playing with it since reading the op comment and can't say it has been a game changer or even an entirely positive experience. I tried some N64, DS, Saturn, Dreamcast and PS games. I can't say I found a single one that I would prefer to play with this fg. It certainly makes thing look smoother but the controls take a big hit. I'm sure there are some games it's great for ,but for me, it has added frustration to everything I play. It felt really bad with games that needed it. If I was just watching it, then it was great, but the lag made everything difficult. Just like lag from really low fps stuff with native fg. It was OK with games that ran at 60fps but aren't the games that needs the extra frames and most that run at that run at that higher fps for the responsiveness which is taken away when doubled.
use it for old games with controller and it's golden, re4 is probably one of the best use cases, night and day difference. On the other side I've seen people buy it to play cs at higher fps... these people are not very bright and I guess thats where the majority of criticism stems from
@@UlyssesM you need patches and many of them don't work properly when u play them above 30 fps, gta san andreas doesn't let u finish driving school, the mission where u get into the andromeda and many more bc the driving physics don't work
GTAIV works almost perfectly at native 60fps aside from, literally, 3 QTEs in the entire game (wich, you can just use FusionFix to cap the FPS for those parts
Finally DF video on this. Honestly i only use this because i have to, i love playing without headphone (if i run it high rr natively my gpu is noticably noisy). many modern games still stubborn to implement modern upscaling/fg (looking at you HD2 & Elden Ring). And hey it works on emulation too
@@rzkrdn8650 Yup. But you cant mention ANYTHING negative about them or their games or the fromsoft fanboys will come in screeching like regarded lemmings.
Yay coverage of this! It is not the miracle some claim it to be. There are downsides for sure. It varies wildly from game to game. Worth every penny in my book. Just gives another tool to play around with. I have a 165hz vrr monitor and locking shooters to 82fps to frame gen to 164 is amazing. Vingetting around the edges and nvidia reflex make a huge difference with this program. Super high framerate Older games Helldivers 2 Elden Ring
Hey, great video as usual. I think, however, that your presentation of the 3x mode is a bit misleading at 5:50 1. Because the internal framerate is not the same. In fact, 60 -> 180 gives fewer artifacts than 60 -> 120 in my experience. Also, 60->180 is near perfect frame pacing for new 360hz monitors in games that can withhold a flat 60. I see why you presented the comarison between 2x and 3x this way, not everybody has a 120+hz monitor. But for HRR monitors, 3x is undeyably the best option, and do not have any input latency compared to 2x. 2. One other thing that would have been nice to mention, is that it has a real cost. Depending on the GPU, if a game is uncapped and vsync off (or fastsync), then LSFG might not yeild as much of an improvement as expected. It may be better with an example : AC Valhalla can go up to ~120fps on my 3080 When using LSFG X3, it goes to ~190. "only" 70 fps gained. Because LSFG uses gpu resources that would have otherwise been allocated to the game rendering. This further aligns with your take that it is best for locked games. Those are just nitpicks, as I said, great video. I am delighted to see tools and mods being featured to an audience of tinkerers. Please keep that high-quality content going :)
You can also use Lossless Scaling on other programs. Sometimes I use it on TH-cam videos (browser) or OBS. Nintendo Switch + HDMI IN + OBS + Lossless Scaling (2x FG) = 60 fps Xenoblade 3 / BOTW.
@@samcandles Yeah. Maybe an issue for BOTW but not really for Xenoblade 3. I don't really notice any significant input latency issues. Maybe I'm not very observant. 😅
A Lossless scaling review with actual older titles!!! Been using it on some old, emulated games and it's been quite fascinating to use! I think understanding the limitations of the program and it's quirks will set your expectations correctly, and if it's viable for your use case is absolutely a great buy.
Hey all, I hope anyone from DF is reading this. You guys NEED to do another video on this program, hear me out. Since you last did the video, they have fixed the mouse issue mentioned here, now the mouse rendering is included in the FG, so you get smooth mouse movement even at lower native framerates. They also recently added on the beta a x4 FG mode (WTF), which can take 30 FPS locked games to 120 FPS! And last but certianly not least, this is the big one, *VRR support*, for both AMD and Nvidia. These updates make this thing a godlike solution, after VRR I now think this program is a mandatory install on any gaming PC. Do check it out again!
Amazing video! This technology looks promissing, but helps some weak machines to run games that before was impossible. But we need to understand the quality cost.
Nice to see lossless covered on the channel! I actually just changed my setup - went from 2 1080p monitors to a single monitor and a 4K 55' TV. Running a 4060, everything running great at 4K thanks to Lossless scaling! Yes, there is some input latency that gets added, but unless you are super sensitive to it I really doubt most people would notice - any newer game will also include Nvidia Low Latency which can help counter it a little bit. The great thing about Lossless is that - if you FULLY understand that it won't look perfect and in some games you have to compensate for some extra latency - you are going to get a lot more longevity out of your hardware, or be able to push it even farther if you want to without having to invest $1k into a new GPU.
Fantastic video. Covers the topic properly, rather than simply making it sound like a miracle without any drawbacks. I still do recommend the software, I think it's amazing as it allows players with severely outdated hardware to play some titles that they would ordinarily struggle with. I personally still stuck with GTX 1080 but I play on 1440P (170Hz monitor). Couldn't maintain 60FPS in some games no matter what settings & optimizations I used before I discovered this gem. Can't speak for the impact on higher end systems, but I think this video does a pretty good job at it.
Very useful on the Steam Deck in Win11. The fact it works on almost anything is the key... Yes there are sometimes better options but this is always a base option and that's cool!
2:38 This is a fantastic comparison and it clearly explains the current issues with upscaling. I wish you guys could do something similar to consoles showcasing this effect since it's something I don't quite recall in previous generations being as pronounced as is now is.
The comparison is not with the upscaling per se, but the "frame gen" component of it. Which are two different things and currently it does not exist on consoles
I mean it's not as necessary on consoles as consoles are usually used on TVs and TVs already have frame interpolation built in. If you're TV is less than 10 years old it likely has a motion smoothing or "action mode". This is just frame rate interpolation built into the TV. Only downside is I've heard the input lag from this is usually much worse than a program like this.
@Shadowninja1200 if you think it looks bad, well that's exactly what this feature is exactly. A frame interpolation with no connection to the game itself. People don't like it for TV shows because it makes things almost unnaturally smooth in slow moving scenes. Basically it goes against the cinema buff mentality. Still many cinema buffs recommend using a low setting if your TV has it for 24hz movies. 24hz doesn't match our TVs so smoothening is required to not stutter.
I get all your points DF, I do. But let me just add this: Yesterday we bought it with my gf and have been using it in particular in a very heavy game: Darktide 40k. It helped smooth and improve the experience we both had by a ton: -she now runs a locked 30 -> 60 fps with no frame drops on High settings -while I can run a locked 60 -> 120 fps with no drops of High plus Ray Tracing. I used to play High only without RT to get varied performance of 60 to 120 depending on how busy the map, now I just lock it to 60 and it runs at 120 with no issues with RT! And we just feel the good points, have not really felt a "oh this feels like it takes longer to move or aim or is less responsive". We might just not be noticing it, but I do encourage everyone to test it out.
@@sametekiz3709 To each its own, but it certainly is addictive and her main gripe was she could not maintain stable performance. Now she can and this helps her experience the game much better!
exactly same experience here. with a 3070TI, a friend has a 4090 and only plays D4 at 60, with ULTRA RT and all you can have, but has a experience of 120. just keep in mind that if you are below 85%, you can lock the Frame rate to 60, experience will be like 120 in most of the games, because theres no added input lag, or the added amount is not noticeable by humans. at elast in most of the games.
why do you mention your gf ? it has nothing to do with the topic. i am writing this text with my mom, my brother and my schoolfriend from 30 years ago.
Been using Lossless Scaling for a few years now. It's not perfect but in many cases, it works so well. I don't use it on my PC, but I do use it on my ROG Ally and it's fantastic in emulators.
thanks for the review been waiting for it to see some real technical explanation of it, please don't forget that you can also use it on everything else not only video games, like web browsers, video players, image viewers, so can be used to watch movies and series too, also a tip: setting up a shortcut for scaling (like ctrl+alt+L) is faster than clicking and waiting 5 seconds to scale/disable scaling
Picked this up a couple days ago. Very happy with it. Been using it for Beyond Two Souls as the community fps unlocker seemed to be incompatible with the (also community) 16:9 patch in my testing. These edge cases pop up all the time, so between that and emulation this will see significant usage on my rig. Going to try out ratchet & clank’s up-rezzed PS3 versions with frame gen next! edit: okay so I couldn't get ratchet collection ps3 to boot in rpcs3 but Lossless Scaling works fine with pcsx2 which I swapped to instead
Nailed it , I've owned lossless scaling for years but only boot it up for the golden olden games, funny as i recently started a turok series playthrough with 120 fps via LGS :) game changer
As someone who likes Motion Blur in my games (unless they are PvP/Multiplayer Shooter then I always use Lossless Scaling. Normal 60fps lock on games to me looks now bit stuttery as I am used to how fluid Lossless Scaling makes it look with fake frames at 120fps. I enjoy 3x mode for watching videos. This tool is a must for anyone on low end computer, because you can lock games to 30fps and then Lossless Scaling will give you 60fps fake frames which to my eyes look like 45-50fps if nothing was used and your PC could handle it. So you're getting free extra 15fps on top of games which make or break your experience when low end gaming. I am on mid range PC with 6700 XT at 1080p, making every Single Player game run locked at 60fps with RTSS on Low detect mode and 60fps lock with 165hz BenQ monitor my motion is as fluid as Digital Foundry described it with Special K frame cap. Just important to note, Lossless Scaling helps even when your fps drops, you barely notice a 10fps drop. I can tell a drop from 60fps to 55fps easily, but with Lossless Scaling I'd have to focus to be able to tell if there was framerate drop or not. And lastly, Lossless Scaling being post process is a massive win for Reshade users. You can apply all the shaders you want and then frame generation on top of it won't affect the shaders.
the absolute best way to use it is : limit your fps by 60, double it with X2, literally as smooth as if you had 120 fps, and the latency with X2 isn't that high (especially with the beta 2.10 version now, it's almost to the point where it's hard to tell compared to 2.9)
Finally! Lossless is actually nuts with how good it is for single-player games. Yes, it adds latency, but the performance overhead needed isn't crazy and is basically the only way to ensure 4K120 in modern games since even a 4090 can't power through most problems, not to mention CPUs lagging behind. The downsides are almost identical to DLSS3 frame-gen (many games still don't make proper use of it leading to UI bugs) and Lossless is purely a video solution, meaning you'll never trip anti-cheat with it or any dumb DRM program.
One of the best advantages of Lossless Scaling is allowing us to play 30fps locked console games in 60fps. I play Zelda Tears of the Kingdom in the Nintendo Switch and Lossless Scaling at 60fps by using a capture card.
@maybebutwhatever he said he's playing on Switch. He's using a capture card and playing the game through the recording window rather than directly on his monitor. If he was playing it on PC he wouldn't need lossless scaling. There's been native high frame rate patches for Tear since like a week after the game came out.
Here's some more use cases I can suggest that I use LS for: 1) Upscaling - obviously LS does upscaling too! Great for old games, especially those with pre-rendered graphics. Just fire it up Windowed and upscale with FSR or another filter for better visuals! 2) Movies, youtube, etc. LS frame gen works anywhere, including your video player, browser, etc. It really does work surprisingly well, I end up watching a LOT of content with LSFG on. 30fps game trailers? Make it 60! Got a movie that you wish was a bit smoother? Make it so! :) 3) CPU-limited games where you have GPU resources to spare. I have a 4090, but a fairly old CPU now, so there are games that struggle a bit on the CPU side, like Baldur's Gate 3 or Kingdom Come: Deliverance. I can play those games at 4K and such no problem, but the framerate leaves a lot to be desired in some places. Well - no more! Those games aren't even fast-paced, so LSFG is absolutely perfect for that! For latency - I find that you can often play around with LS settings to make things more responsive, like disabling the wait for vsync or even using the performance mode (slight visual fidelity loss, which depends on the game, but it can claw back a noticeable amount of latency). As you say in the video, Alex, the latency is...not really that big of a deal somehow. Yeah, it's there if the base framerate is already very low, but at 50+fps it's actually fine and you quickly forget about it. The extra visual smoothness becomes very compelling, far outweighing the loss of responsiveness in most cases. That being said... did you really get it to work with VRR? At least on Nvidia cards even the dev said VRR just does not work. If you managed to make it work - I'd like to know how.
I think this program shines the most when combined with RPCS3 which struggles to emulate PS3 titles on PC for over 30FPS. This combination will unlock Uncharted 3 gameplay on PC for steady 60FPS experience!
Not just Okami. Its a big plus for a lot of older games that ran at 30 fps locked. A lot of PS2 games I played on emulator, I ran LS with it too. Almost no issue barring one or two input delay sensitivity moment.
@@IsaacSperrowwait, so for example the warriors on pcsx2 (ps2 emulator) is locked to 30 fps. using lossless scaling i can get past the 30 fps lock? you can disable the lock in the game through emu settings, but it breaks the gamespeed and makes everything lightning fast. would this tool allow me to run at a smooth 60 with no gamespeed issues?
@@toasty-turnpikeYes, LSFG runs completely separately from the engine itself so it's essentially taking whatever frames the game's engine is producing and interpolates that up. I might add that by design none of these FG solutions really work right if your base FPS is lower than 60. I can't speak for LSFG specifically, but any game I've tried with DLSS 3 or FSR 3 on ended up looking worse than native in motion if my base FPS dipped below 50, so I'm going to assume LSFG behaves the same way considering it's technically inferior to Nvidia and AMD's FG solutions
@@someusername1872 i haven’t purchased it yet, i guess i’m just a little confused as to how it would be set up. i believe the warriors is locked to 29 or 30 fps. i have a 144 hz monitor, so what would i have to do to get the game to run at 60? i see users say you need to set the monitor to 120 hz or something?
I've been using Lossless Scaling for almost a month now and I'm happy that there's a very indepth video now covering all the pros and cons about it that I can point people to when they ask me about it. Just as the video points out, the best use case is for older games that did not have very high framerates, and keeping in mind the added input latency, if you play with a controller its all very manageable. Overall, weighting the pros and cons of the program, I am extremely happy with the results it gives, especially since the way it "mods" the frames in doesn't at all touch process memory, which makes it compatible with some stuff like games that use Anti-cheat.
How's it useful then, when people generally use scalers for higher performance with modern games ? Like how often do you read someone say, "I need a scaler for Starcraft 1" ?
@@gamerxt333 Because older games often tend to be locked at lower framerates (often 60, and if you emulate older games, then its often 30 instead), and some of these games can't be patched to be higher framerate without causing all sorts of issues/bugs (i.e. sometimes physics are tied to framerate).
Lossless scaling is the kind of software that has been widely used in specific demographic. Although this video focus on high end pc, the primary target user might have different experience, and here is why. LS is very popular among windows gaming handheld community. Current handhelds like rog ally have limited performance (gtx 1650 level, time spy 3000 pts) but tiny screen (7 inch), which makes LS perfect for this use case. I use my legion go to play helldivers 2. Originally, the game would only run at absolutely lowest setting at 30fps, but with LS I can boost it up to low-mid at 50fps, which makes it a game changer that turn barely playable to somewhat enjoyable. Also, the artifacts are not visible unless you intentionally try to look for it due to the small screen. Input latency might be higher, but since handhelds uses controller, you will not fell it in non-competitive titles. Flight sim is also another community that extensively use LS. Games like msfs2020 are extremely resource intensive, and people with mid-range rigs like 4060 struggle to get good framerate. Due to the nature of flight stick, input latency is not really an issue, so most users target 25-30 fps for better visual fidelity. Now with LS, they can have stable 60fps without compromising on immersion. At last, LS is originally designed as an upscaling software, and certain games like galgame, visual novel, and avg that have artworks shipped in 720p and 1080p can be better enjoyed on large monitor from LS's upscaling algorithm like anime4K.
I mean, sure there are some issues, but when you're playing a game that's either locked to 30 fps, or your PC can only play at like, 30 -40 then the added frames are a game changer. It lets older hardware run so much better.
It's really only for games with locked frame rates. I've noticed the frame rate interpolation is extremely heavy on the GPU. Really if you're playing a game you system can barely handle lossless scaling will only moderately help.
@@Skylancer727 Yeah people who think this a free performance tool haven't really been paying attention to the performance hit from when activating it. I mean sure, you'll probably end up with better framerate with LS enabled, but it won't definitely be by much.
@@PedroAndrade25 I disagree, Star citizen and Elden ring both saw massive uplift because of it for me. This software just does what NVIDIA should have done with their DLSS/FRG/etc. but were never able to to that extent.
@@cryonim Probably because your system is good enough to have more than enough spare load to run the tool comfortably. But people with old hardware thinking they're going to get massive FPS boost are in for a rude awakening.
I wonder what would happen if you did DLSS3 up to 120Hz and then Lossless Scaling up to 240. A 4k/240 final video starting life out as 720P/60 internally would be hilarious to see.
You could technically do it with FSR 3 + AFMF on Radeon GPUs. The two weren’t meant to be combined, so iirc the end result was a jittery, teary, high-latency mess since both the interpolators tried to display their generated frames at the same time. There’s videos where techtubers try the two out together. I imagine the result would be no better with DLSS 3 + LSFG, since they’re not even from the same software devs.
Something like this would be amazing if integrated on the Steam Deck UI, similar to what we have for FSR2. Imagine that: you set FPS to 90 and turn on 2x frame generation. The game will be locked at 45fps and frame gen will interpolate to 90fps, automatically.
It wouldn't be so cut-and-dry, though. LSFG has a performance cost - and a noticeable one at that, since it's not running on any dedicated hardware like DLSS would. It is not uncommon that you'd run a game on PC, say, at 80fps and expect LSFG to give you 160, but with it on you are only getting like 65 to 130. And this happens with a 4090 as well (I know, because I have one, though the biggest penalty is obviously at 4K+). So it very much depends on the game and how much GPU headroom you have left.
I’ve been using lossless scaling for about six months. It’s great for use on the Ally and LeGo. It’s fairly inexpensive and really improves the experience. This is a great booster for the developers. Great video!
If you allow tearing in LSFG I find it greatly reduces input latency. Without it on, using a mouse in Helldivers 2 the input lag is unbearable but as soon as i turn on allow tearing it became imperceptible in x2 mode. Even in x3 it was the input lag was minor. Pretty surprised but I'll take the increase fluidity in a game for that minor incovenience any day
And I'm watching this through Lossless Scaling's frame generation :D One of the fun use cases, just set something (youtube, vlc, etc) on fullscreen and fg away!
I don't think you know what machine learning is. They used it to set up the parameters of the interpolation most likely, not to perform the adjustment itself.
this looks like how you remember games in your mind. sucks going back to an older game and then having being spoiled by newer hardware and frame rates it feels unplayable even though it’s exactly the way it released but something still feels off. i’m obsessed w this
@@PintsofGuinness special k will be flagged by anticheat but rtss won't have that problem. generally rtss is easier to use so, to the non-enthusiast-tinkerers i think rtss is better option. special k is a very powerful tool but it's very finicky and doesnt work with all games.
I've never had an issue with NVIDIA control panel framerate caps, and I have it set globally for every program. Maybe if you're a super enthusiast tech person you could notice some issue but I can't.
@@Revalopod hey, if your happy with it don't let me stop you, but there is a measurable difference. i have a friend who was playing monster hunter world on ps4 so i mentioned that ps4 version has unlocked and unstable 30-40 fps gameplay and he had no idea what i was talking about and was happy with that version and had fun with it. different ppl have different tolerances for these things and that's completely cool.
Haven't tried the frame generation in the program yet, but this program's upscaling capabilities are perfect for being able to play on a 4K display on low to mid-range GPU's.
LA noire was 30fps locked due to the animation capture system. I think i played it with a 60fps mod yesrs ago, but it broke some physics and such since Rockstsr never intended it to be more than 30. Im guessing thats all fixed in modern re-releases but since i dont own those, this id a great way to re-exprrience the title
Another bonus I'd like to add: I like to play lower end games on my main setup because it's convenient, and during this time of year, it gets hot. Locking the game at 30 and using LS to do 60, actually uses less power on my RTX 3080 than running native 60. It's great.
Thanks for mentioning brother, I'm thinking of using this with Crew MF. What's your experience like in terms of ghosting? Also, what GPU are you using? 🤩 thanks bro!
@@Mew_York_Kitty the gsme have already a weird artifacting with screen space reflections around the car, while it add some artifactings, is not that distracting tbh
@DigitalFoundry really needs to review said features of software. They just breeze through Lossless without doing a deep dive on its settings. This review was better than the last but they didn't cover much of how to properly use the tool. You can allow screen tearing to reduce latency and its worth the payoff especially native portrait handhelds. You should diable v-sync in game but can enable it inside Lossless. There are key selectable capture APIs (DXGI/WGC) for frame generation inside Lossless that have different pro and cons to seeing artifacts with performance differences but none of them were shown here in this video or the last video. AFMF requires all games to be run in exclusive full screen mode which doesn't always bode well for handhelds that have native portrait displays. Lossless requires running in a window mode which helps get around exclusive fullscreen limited games. Plus if you run a game in borderless fullscreen you end up forcing the game to the native resolution set by windows. This can hinder your performance if you need the game to run at lower resolutions. In Lossless you can assign a scaling option to reduce the resolution by a custom scaling factor to increase performance. Tick the Status box arrow inside Lossless to see the reported rescale numbers. The Lossless upscalers can also help sharpen games that are over soften because of temporal aliasing. I believe Lossless works better for 1st person games vs 3rd person if you wish to observe less artifacts but its a major boon for handhelds even if the goal is going for lower frame targets. You have selectable performance modes to lower the frame gen costs on your gpu (you should also mention?). You can limit the frames to 33 fps in RTSS and set display to 100hz at 3x performance LSFG 2.1 mode or shoot a slightly higher cap for less latency. There is a lot of experimentation needed as one Lossless capture api will yield different results per game engine.
This is already covered perfectly. This is not intended to be a how-to or a deep dive into the intricacies of the software. It covers the tech in an easy to understand way; which is essentially @DigitalFoundry’s MO.
![fellow fellow - พรุ่งนี้ไม่มีใครรู้ feat. INK WARUNTORN [OFFICIAL MV]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/QP6JyjYx_W0/mqdefault.jpg)
Finally we can download more performance lol
Memory unlocked: I'm a kid and a friend tells me that 3dfx acceleration is a program you can buy on a few floppy discs in a store
with amd you can just enable AFMF which is superior to LS and close to FSR3.
@@evono9207it actually not superior…you need to buy and try
@@evono9207 oh hell no, lsfg is far superior than fluid motion.. its been proven over time.. the reason why fluid motion can't compete with lsfg is that fluid motion is still new and needed more refinement... the only thing from AMD that compete with lsfg is fsr 3 frame gen..
@@Bodonism nah ,lsfg is slower x introduces up to 3x the latency than afmf or fsr3 , with way worse quality , hardware unboxed just analysed it and it's horrible bad. Good for what it is but
I have gtx 1060 6 GB and I was getting 30 to 40fps in every new game but after using this app, it has given a new life to my GPU ...
Yes just lock the game to 30 fps and use lsfg
@gamerhemanth2369 i don't know how to lock the game at 30 fps. And it just works fine without that.
@@_captain_yt use Msi afterburner
@@Godfatherhemanth2369why would i lock it? I need 120 fps.
@@TheRealGigaCatYou don't need 120 FPS, you *want* 120 FPS.
Thanks for covering this because I have to say many of the reviews say there are NO downsides at all with it, which is obvious bs. This is an amazing effect, though, when you have no other options. The developers deserve all the praise they receive!
there is nothing to praise, that has been done decades ago... its actually pretty bad in my opinion and the false name "losless" is a nogo at all. that is scam because there is a lot of loss in the quality
Lossless scaling refers to integer scaling which was the original point of the problem @@PrefoX
@@PrefoX "there is nothing to praise, that has been done decades ago." And he managed to capitalize on it, what's your point, I don't see any other readily accessible software that does what LS does? Even FSR mods are locked behind a patreon subscription. And there's no way you went going into this program thinking there's no loss in image quality just because of the name lmao, you must get "scammed" a lot. No where does the developer promise no loss in image quality and anyone with a shred of common sense would know that's to be expect when even more advanced tech like FSR/DLSS/XESS have degradation in image quality.
@@PrefoX The lossless claim refers to the scaling (it is in the name). Somehow i see comments like yours constantly when people are discussing this program, why the hate?
This crap is ruining gaming@@godsvoid
og FF7 modded to widescreen and 60fps and then to 120fps using the duck app has been one of my favorite things this year
I'd love to hear more, what's so enjoyable about it? I love ff7 but I'm curious what's so special about playing a game like that at a higher refresh ratw
@@XDevonBueno It'd be quite an experience having the ability to witness FF7's combat system, which ran at 15fps, be able to run at a full 120fps. I'd imagine it would be quite daunting at first after being used to the game at such a low frame rate.
One of the first things I had a great experience with after a recent update to LS was Paper Mario with the 60fps mod and LSFG to 120fps.
I am confused, what is the duck app? Are you talking about LSFG?
@@RicochetForce Ok thanks.
By the way I checked out that Gaia mod. Crazy stuff they are doing now.
Even crazier.....they just figured out a way to bring Aerith back. And the game works like that. After 27 years.....just crazy the things they have done on that game.
Tried Lossless scaling a month ago. Super happy with the program. But yeah. Everything you covered is exactly what people need to know. Definitely not a program to use blindly. But when it works, it can be a great boon.
Exactly, it has limits, but great in a lot of cases
Feels great for me on PCSX2, where games are almost always limited to 60 (or 50) fps since framerate is normally linked to the engine speed.
@@matone1z I use it the exact same way. Gran Turismo 4 works wonders but the rpm needle sometimes wiggles like a wet noodle when you shift.
Yea banger emulation tool works on tons
@@matone1z locking frame generation to your monitor refresh rate is good too.
You completely sold lossless gaming for me as I’m watching this at 2x speed on my 120hz iPad and I can feel the smoothness, I noticed the artefacts but it didn’t matter to me at all. I’ll 100% use it when I get a gaming laptop.
Bought this Software for 0.79€ during 2020 Halloween Sales to upscale some old Visual Novels, Very impressed with how much it has improved.
It might have been a relatively good option for scaling VNs in 2020, but at this point I'd highly recommend using Magpie for that purpose instead. It's much more efficient (especially when there are a lot of identical frames, as in most VNs) and has many more options that allow for more scalability & customisation, as well as being a free program.
@@names-are-for-friends but no frame gen I guess
@@DragonOfTheMortalKombat you don't need frame gen for VNs, lmao.
What's this trend with people saying "I brought something in a sale", do you require a medal for that or something ? Weird...
@@gamerxt333What's this trend with people saying "What's this trend with people saying ____", do you require a medal for noticing that or something ? Weird...
The biggest issue i constantly see with users is they don’t actually know how frame gen works so they’re always surprised when 3x looks bad at 20 fps base with their intel uhd graphic
Yes lol
I actually used it at 20fps and thought it still looked really good. Granted I was also using it with Ocarina of Time with incredibly simple graphics but to me it looked nearly flawless. Only one I noticed was the distortion at the bottom of the screen. Doesn't really bother me much though as my screen has some vignetting.
Yep basically lossless works like taa l, the high fsp and resolution th3 better result
@math3capanema I mean any visual bug looks better the higher the frame rate. Even aliasing is less obvious the higher the frame rate. Lossless Scaling's generation just works the same as the interpolation you have on TVs, it just views 2 frames and makes a median one. The flaws of 2x mode are easily missed because of the fact real frames make up the vast majority. The flaws show up most in scenes without logical motion like fire, explosions, particle effects, etc. It's also not great at dealing with extremely fast motion especially if there's motion blur.
This is why the feature is best for games where things have very logical motion other than particle effects. Games also don't tend to have as many camera cuts removing that issue entirely.
Lossless scaling can also be used with video as well just like the one on TVs. This means you can also combine this with Nvidia's upscaler making videos like 60% AI generated. It also shows how it works best on game footage over really anything else.
It is kinda nice on a 3080 at 2x. Clean fast and very little lag. Takes my default 45+ fps to 90+ fps basically across the board.
The best benefit of Lossless Scaling has to be the fact that, unlike modded solution, it does not tinker with any of the game code and processes. It simply captures the output like OBS would, and that means it plays nice with anti-cheat. In fact I pretty much played all of Shadow of the Erdtree with it and online.
Isn't that a waste. Elden Ring is archaic and fromsoft stupidly makes all their games 60fps hard cap. Despite being games you need amazing reaction time for
I imagine fromsoft is like ppl can't c above 60 fps anyway why bother?
@@thedoomslayer5863 No it triples your framerate, even if its a hard 60fps lock.
@@glintstone415yes but it adds input lag. And in these fromsoft games that is a death sentence
Hoo boy the brainrot in the thread upscales the scarlet variety by 3x
You can reduce significant latency by using an in-game frame limiter to cap the frames at half or a third of your monitor's frequency. You also need to disable in-game VSync. Only enable it through the LS application.
I am using Lossless Scaling with my GTX 1080ti on a 4K TV, and with the LS upscaler plus 2x frame generation, I am extremely satisfied.
The best method is to turn on "allow tearing" on the bottom right. It basically cuts the added latency in half.
omg, buy a new graphics card, who still plays with such an old card?
GTX1070 user here, I waiting the RTX10000 series with DLSS v7.8, saludos.
So enabling vertical sync via LS doesn't increase input latency?
placebo.
it doesn't work that way. it may be smoother and therefore feel like there is less latency, but it 100% will give more latency.
but I agree that smooth frames instead of staters are more important than some minor delay, and give better visual results and are easier on the brain.
Gamed over 300 hours using this app, it's really good for handheld PCs
For the steam deck also??!:0
@@the100ways6 unfortunately it's not available on steam os at the moment , only windows
@@barozzbaro3283 That would be sweet if it worked on Steam deck
@@barozzbaro3283 I could see it happen. The program is sold on steam.
@@barozzbaro3283just run it forcing proton compatibility?
Works like charm in my heavily modded Skyrim! Also does wonders with emulators such as RCPS3 and Yuzu!
exactly
I use it on PS1 games as well. It's so smooth and really breathed some life into those old games.
I might actually try GoW3 on RCPS3 again. It ran like shit before. Like 19-40 fps
Multiplying framerate using the Terrance Howard method
🤣😂
The you can download more fps guys been real quiet since Terrance Howard dropped this
I got some free frames here mayne, it looks a little funny sometimes but i think you might still like it. it uses perfect symmetry in a geometric isotope to create a new reality mayne. enjoy.
Terryology!!!
Bbeeerrroooohhh...
9:16 I’m so glad Freedom Fighters is getting love in 2024. Love that game. Never forget getting the disc on PC and loading it up for the first time. Insane story but great gameplay
Facts. Still bothered there's no way to validate my CD key on windows 10.
One of my favs of ps2
I specifically have been using this for games locked at 60 or games that run poorly at higher framerates like you said in the video
Its genuinely just for fluidity and im really glad this program exists so i dont feel bad about complaining about games just for some reason not supporting the pc platform properly.
This software has been a life changer for me so far. My RX6700XT rig is still going strong but some of the newer games are really starting to put it through its paces, especially on my Ultrawide QHD 144hz monitor. Lossless Scaling means that those demanding games hitting only 50-60 can reach well over 100 again, which will tide me over until I eventually upgrade my GPU in a year or so.
It's hard to go back. It makes games so smooth and when you turn it off it feels much worse
People needed to know about this little yet generous software !
The distortion at the border of screen remembers VHS tapes, if you're old enough to remember that :) when tapes often would play with some distortion or garbling at the top and/or bottom lines, often in old or low-quality recordings or because of misaligned heads etc.
back then 3D games ran at 15 fps, the frame generation was our imagination.
@MarquisDeSang Our hard drives, all our fans, even some parts you didn't expect would SING - that's how you know it's Good Graphics.
I miss those days and wish ppl still thought it like that. I want PC games that push 4090s into the 40s and lower FPS. I want POWER shown!!
they could fix that by cutting of the corners a bit and upscaling the image. Would be an interesting option.
@@marcgtsr you can do it lossless scaling
@@opinali with my settings I don't get that border effect. I'm using it on my Legion Go only at this time.
One thing no one talks about is that there is an option in the LS app that massively reduces latency. if you click on the “Allow screen tearing” option the input is way better. It even says that in its description. It probably wont always work well but for me i have yet to notice any screen tearing and I use it all the time now.
With a vrr display, nvidia reflex/amd low latency, turning on screen tearing, and locked framerate it really boosts this tool's input latency and visual boost.
I just got this to try with Rome total War as that is hard to keep playable frame rates and this tool is a god send. The allowing tearing has improved latency too without any tearing, although I locked the frame rate to 30 and it feels smooth/playable now on either 2x or 3x frame generation (although 3x is a bit too much moving around alot)
@@Chobbito I also had good results with it in Napoleon Total War,
@@skapunker1986 great to hear, it's really a god send in these classic games that only used one CPU core. even games like Fallout 3 which has engine issues if you go over 60fps, you can lock it to 60 and this boosts it 120fps with frame gen and I managed to play for hours without a single issue or crash
I just commented this before I read through the comments. Allow tearing in x2 makes the input latency imperceptable for me with mouse and keyboard in Helldivers 2. With it off it's honestly unplayable. Also I'm not sure why he couldn't get the game to be smooth locking frames with RTSS. Worked fine for me.
I bought this program a couple years ago, had no idea it had been updated!
Yeah they just added the feature in the last year and the 3X mode only came out about a month ago.
13:47 "No Fame-Rate Cap"
Look, I know Jin Sakai lost his honor, but fame is definitely something he got in return.
😂
Jin Sakai is 100% the $hit. His standoffs are legendary
I noticed this in the video, which is actually impressive because I'm drunk.
😂😂😂
I was just trying to uncap The Evil Within. You posted this, I did it, it's fixed. I love it. Couldn't bear the low FPS and bow I can enjoy a good game again.
Hell yeah!! Sebastian is one of my favorite characters possibly in a game or one of them! Just a dope game, I really feel like it could still be revived one day, for a third game. RIP TangoGameworks
This software is great and definitely helps when you’re playing a game with technical shortcomings, like a UI that doesn’t scale properly on higher resolutions or older games that stutter. It works wonders for that
Fun fact,You can also use Lossless Scaling for videos and even on browsers.
Yep...you can actually frame gen a low frame rate video if you're curious.
And all you get is artifacts
@@maybebutwhatever I don't notice any artifacts using it while watching videos.
matters what type of video it is, I feel like its easier to notice artifacts in videos cause youre not as focused as you would be on a game.
Artifacting is less of an issue than soap-opera effect. TVs all have had this functionality built in for over a decade now, and it wasn't used for games because it created too much latency. For TV and movies though, it's popular with the masses but enthusiasts hate it.
@@maybebutwhatever its not perfect but delete the film grain in movies.
It's especially good for old emulated games, such as gamecube/wii/3ds games.
Ah, I'll have to give this a try. I normally play on the real hardware but I bought this and haven't been able to find a good use for it yet. I doubt my issues with its fg will be different in emulation but the upscaling options intrigue me. Thank you.
Frame generation is really important for emulators
@andyccchan why do you say that? I've been playing with it since reading the op comment and can't say it has been a game changer or even an entirely positive experience. I tried some N64, DS, Saturn, Dreamcast and PS games. I can't say I found a single one that I would prefer to play with this fg. It certainly makes thing look smoother but the controls take a big hit. I'm sure there are some games it's great for ,but for me, it has added frustration to everything I play. It felt really bad with games that needed it. If I was just watching it, then it was great, but the lag made everything difficult. Just like lag from really low fps stuff with native fg. It was OK with games that ran at 60fps but aren't the games that needs the extra frames and most that run at that run at that higher fps for the responsiveness which is taken away when doubled.
@@mrcrunch8000 Well said. I also find frustation about the mouse movement and control
it's good for everything, it has saved my PC, for dragon's dogma2
valve needs something like this for deck
The program is sold on Steam so it just needs a Linux patch.
@@Skylancer727 its not possible on linux
@@mal-avcisi9783 it is possible to use frame gen on the steam deck as I’ve done it with a mod on cyberpunk. But it’s not the easiest thing ever.
AMD already has Fluid Motion Frames, which I believe does the same thing.
@@selohcin AMD FMF is horrible. The Frame Generation stops at any given moment, if you move the mouse and so on
use it for old games with controller and it's golden, re4 is probably one of the best use cases, night and day difference. On the other side I've seen people buy it to play cs at higher fps... these people are not very bright and I guess thats where the majority of criticism stems from
oh man been waiting for this. Thanks
I recently started Windwaker and just got this after seeing this video. Honestly this is a game changer for older games locked at 30
lossless scaling will really help older games like gta vc, san andreas and iv that are generally capped at lower framerates bc of physics
what? you can already play those games at 60fps
@@UlyssesM you need patches and many of them don't work properly when u play them above 30 fps, gta san andreas doesn't let u finish driving school, the mission where u get into the andromeda and many more bc the driving physics don't work
@@condevampichoco7395 that happens if you turn the “frame limit” setting off but IIRC there was a patch that let you play at 60fps (could be wrong)
@@UlyssesMnow at 120 or 180 fps
GTAIV works almost perfectly at native 60fps aside from, literally, 3 QTEs in the entire game (wich, you can just use FusionFix to cap the FPS for those parts
These videos are so relaxing to watch.
Finally DF video on this.
Honestly i only use this because i have to, i love playing without headphone (if i run it high rr natively my gpu is noticably noisy). many modern games still stubborn to implement modern upscaling/fg (looking at you HD2 & Elden Ring). And hey it works on emulation too
Fromsoft is just behind in many ways. FFS their games are locked to 60 fps ON PC like WHAT IS THAT
@@thedoomslayer5863 Yeah lol, what's up with that. It's not like they have 2024 graphics, it looks like 2015 game
@@thedoomslayer5863That's cause their games have multiplayer.
@@deathtrooper2048 No. Thats not a excuse. Stop trying to excuse them being 10 years + behind in pc settings and optimization.
@@rzkrdn8650 Yup. But you cant mention ANYTHING negative about them or their games or the fromsoft fanboys will come in screeching like regarded lemmings.
I knew this day was coming! Thank you Alex!
Yay coverage of this!
It is not the miracle some claim it to be. There are downsides for sure. It varies wildly from game to game.
Worth every penny in my book. Just gives another tool to play around with.
I have a 165hz vrr monitor and locking shooters to 82fps to frame gen to 164 is amazing.
Vingetting around the edges and nvidia reflex make a huge difference with this program.
Super high framerate
Older games
Helldivers 2
Elden Ring
Hey, great video as usual. I think, however, that your presentation of the 3x mode is a bit misleading at 5:50
1. Because the internal framerate is not the same. In fact, 60 -> 180 gives fewer artifacts than 60 -> 120 in my experience.
Also, 60->180 is near perfect frame pacing for new 360hz monitors in games that can withhold a flat 60.
I see why you presented the comarison between 2x and 3x this way, not everybody has a 120+hz monitor.
But for HRR monitors, 3x is undeyably the best option, and do not have any input latency compared to 2x.
2. One other thing that would have been nice to mention, is that it has a real cost. Depending on the GPU, if a game is uncapped and vsync off (or fastsync), then LSFG might not yeild as much of an improvement as expected.
It may be better with an example :
AC Valhalla can go up to ~120fps on my 3080
When using LSFG X3, it goes to ~190. "only" 70 fps gained.
Because LSFG uses gpu resources that would have otherwise been allocated to the game rendering.
This further aligns with your take that it is best for locked games.
Those are just nitpicks, as I said, great video. I am delighted to see tools and mods being featured to an audience of tinkerers. Please keep that high-quality content going :)
You can also use Lossless Scaling on other programs.
Sometimes I use it on TH-cam videos (browser) or OBS.
Nintendo Switch + HDMI IN + OBS + Lossless Scaling (2x FG) = 60 fps Xenoblade 3 / BOTW.
Wow... nearly triple the latency :D
@@samcandles Yeah.
Maybe an issue for BOTW but not really for Xenoblade 3.
I don't really notice any significant input latency issues.
Maybe I'm not very observant. 😅
If your PC can handle it you could just emulate them, if you own the games there's nothing really immoral about it.
Nice for watching sports
you can double your fps with LG Trumotion on your OLED TV.
Or just overclock your switch.
I was literally just looking at this tool last night. Great video, thanks!
A Lossless scaling review with actual older titles!!! Been using it on some old, emulated games and it's been quite fascinating to use!
I think understanding the limitations of the program and it's quirks will set your expectations correctly, and if it's viable for your use case is absolutely a great buy.
It's crazy how good it works with just the frames and no motion vectors. Its not ideal but if you just play a game you can easily ignore its problems.
Yep! I'm playing X Men Origins Wolverine at 60fps (most of the time) using Lossless Scaling + Xenia emulator.
@@joshtarpley3183you can get the x men origins native pc port for free from myabandonware if you’re interested!
@@joshtarpley3183You do know that there's a PC port that natively supports 60FPS, right?
@@mrturret01 where?
Hey all, I hope anyone from DF is reading this. You guys NEED to do another video on this program, hear me out.
Since you last did the video, they have fixed the mouse issue mentioned here, now the mouse rendering is included in the FG, so you get smooth mouse movement even at lower native framerates. They also recently added on the beta a x4 FG mode (WTF), which can take 30 FPS locked games to 120 FPS!
And last but certianly not least, this is the big one, *VRR support*, for both AMD and Nvidia.
These updates make this thing a godlike solution, after VRR I now think this program is a mandatory install on any gaming PC. Do check it out again!
Amazing video! This technology looks promissing, but helps some weak machines to run games that before was impossible. But we need to understand the quality cost.
Salve Combo!!
Que incrivel ver um canal fantastico assistindo outro canal maravilhoso!
Esse programa não tem um mente pc fracos, até por que a geração de frames em si é bem pesadinha. Isso é mais pra jogos que tem framerate bloqueado.
Nice to see lossless covered on the channel!
I actually just changed my setup - went from 2 1080p monitors to a single monitor and a 4K 55' TV.
Running a 4060, everything running great at 4K thanks to Lossless scaling! Yes, there is some input latency that gets added, but unless you are super sensitive to it I really doubt most people would notice - any newer game will also include Nvidia Low Latency which can help counter it a little bit.
The great thing about Lossless is that - if you FULLY understand that it won't look perfect and in some games you have to compensate for some extra latency - you are going to get a lot more longevity out of your hardware, or be able to push it even farther if you want to without having to invest $1k into a new GPU.
Another brilliant vid from Alex.
Fantastic video. Covers the topic properly, rather than simply making it sound like a miracle without any drawbacks. I still do recommend the software, I think it's amazing as it allows players with severely outdated hardware to play some titles that they would ordinarily struggle with. I personally still stuck with GTX 1080 but I play on 1440P (170Hz monitor). Couldn't maintain 60FPS in some games no matter what settings & optimizations I used before I discovered this gem. Can't speak for the impact on higher end systems, but I think this video does a pretty good job at it.
Very useful on the Steam Deck in Win11. The fact it works on almost anything is the key... Yes there are sometimes better options but this is always a base option and that's cool!
been using it on the deck with elden ring, noticed the input delay is really bad, did you fix this on your end or is it really like this?
@@clarke2816it is like that if your base fps is below 60
You can even upscale video and double the framerate. Its crazy hah
@@Farat9622and with the latest update you can get 4x the framerate 👌
2:38 This is a fantastic comparison and it clearly explains the current issues with upscaling.
I wish you guys could do something similar to consoles showcasing this effect since it's something I don't quite recall in previous generations being as pronounced as is now is.
The comparison is not with the upscaling per se, but the "frame gen" component of it. Which are two different things
and currently it does not exist on consoles
they also did the video on this artifact, it came from TAA
I mean it's not as necessary on consoles as consoles are usually used on TVs and TVs already have frame interpolation built in. If you're TV is less than 10 years old it likely has a motion smoothing or "action mode". This is just frame rate interpolation built into the TV. Only downside is I've heard the input lag from this is usually much worse than a program like this.
@@Skylancer727 Most people just turn that off because it looks so bad.
@Shadowninja1200 if you think it looks bad, well that's exactly what this feature is exactly. A frame interpolation with no connection to the game itself.
People don't like it for TV shows because it makes things almost unnaturally smooth in slow moving scenes. Basically it goes against the cinema buff mentality. Still many cinema buffs recommend using a low setting if your TV has it for 24hz movies. 24hz doesn't match our TVs so smoothening is required to not stutter.
I get all your points DF, I do. But let me just add this:
Yesterday we bought it with my gf and have been using it in particular in a very heavy game: Darktide 40k. It helped smooth and improve the experience we both had by a ton:
-she now runs a locked 30 -> 60 fps with no frame drops on High settings
-while I can run a locked 60 -> 120 fps with no drops of High plus Ray Tracing. I used to play High only without RT to get varied performance of 60 to 120 depending on how busy the map, now I just lock it to 60 and it runs at 120 with no issues with RT!
And we just feel the good points, have not really felt a "oh this feels like it takes longer to move or aim or is less responsive". We might just not be noticing it, but I do encourage everyone to test it out.
darktide is shit.
@@sametekiz3709 Cool opinion bro.
@@sametekiz3709 To each its own, but it certainly is addictive and her main gripe was she could not maintain stable performance. Now she can and this helps her experience the game much better!
exactly same experience here. with a 3070TI, a friend has a 4090 and only plays D4 at 60, with ULTRA RT and all you can have, but has a experience of 120. just keep in mind that if you are below 85%, you can lock the Frame rate to 60, experience will be like 120 in most of the games, because theres no added input lag, or the added amount is not noticeable by humans. at elast in most of the games.
why do you mention your gf ? it has nothing to do with the topic. i am writing this text with my mom, my brother and my schoolfriend from 30 years ago.
Been using Lossless Scaling for a few years now. It's not perfect but in many cases, it works so well. I don't use it on my PC, but I do use it on my ROG Ally and it's fantastic in emulators.
Brilliant video! Thank you as always for all your amazing work team.
thanks for the review been waiting for it to see some real technical explanation of it, please don't forget that you can also use it on everything else not only video games, like web browsers, video players, image viewers, so can be used to watch movies and series too, also a tip: setting up a shortcut for scaling (like ctrl+alt+L) is faster than clicking and waiting 5 seconds to scale/disable scaling
Amazing tech and review!!
I think this could be a game-changer for a lot of emulated games, especially switch and ps3
Picked this up a couple days ago. Very happy with it. Been using it for Beyond Two Souls as the community fps unlocker seemed to be incompatible with the (also community) 16:9 patch in my testing. These edge cases pop up all the time, so between that and emulation this will see significant usage on my rig. Going to try out ratchet & clank’s up-rezzed PS3 versions with frame gen next! edit: okay so I couldn't get ratchet collection ps3 to boot in rpcs3 but Lossless Scaling works fine with pcsx2 which I swapped to instead
Nailed it , I've owned lossless scaling for years but only boot it up for the golden olden games, funny as i recently started a turok series playthrough with 120 fps via LGS :) game changer
why would you need high FPS on older games when they run much faster FPS to begin with using a modern PC?
@@ravenstarfire8816 cause they have locked fps, most of the time
Gotta stack FSR 3, AFMF, and Lossless Scaling for that 12x frame rate boost
As someone who likes Motion Blur in my games (unless they are PvP/Multiplayer Shooter then I always use Lossless Scaling. Normal 60fps lock on games to me looks now bit stuttery as I am used to how fluid Lossless Scaling makes it look with fake frames at 120fps.
I enjoy 3x mode for watching videos.
This tool is a must for anyone on low end computer, because you can lock games to 30fps and then Lossless Scaling will give you 60fps fake frames which to my eyes look like 45-50fps if nothing was used and your PC could handle it. So you're getting free extra 15fps on top of games which make or break your experience when low end gaming.
I am on mid range PC with 6700 XT at 1080p, making every Single Player game run locked at 60fps with RTSS on Low detect mode and 60fps lock with 165hz BenQ monitor my motion is as fluid as Digital Foundry described it with Special K frame cap.
Just important to note, Lossless Scaling helps even when your fps drops, you barely notice a 10fps drop. I can tell a drop from 60fps to 55fps easily, but with Lossless Scaling I'd have to focus to be able to tell if there was framerate drop or not.
And lastly, Lossless Scaling being post process is a massive win for Reshade users. You can apply all the shaders you want and then frame generation on top of it won't affect the shaders.
I have a laptop with I5 12400 and Rtx 4070 (8GB Vram which is ridiculous ) which mode should i use ?
the absolute best way to use it is : limit your fps by 60, double it with X2, literally as smooth as if you had 120 fps, and the latency with X2 isn't that high (especially with the beta 2.10 version now, it's almost to the point where it's hard to tell compared to 2.9)
Ok, this has been very very veryyyy helpful man. You saved my money 😂
been waiting for this video ❤
Finally! Lossless is actually nuts with how good it is for single-player games. Yes, it adds latency, but the performance overhead needed isn't crazy and is basically the only way to ensure 4K120 in modern games since even a 4090 can't power through most problems, not to mention CPUs lagging behind. The downsides are almost identical to DLSS3 frame-gen (many games still don't make proper use of it leading to UI bugs) and Lossless is purely a video solution, meaning you'll never trip anti-cheat with it or any dumb DRM program.
Just need to say DF is amazing, gaming is amazing!
I've been waiting for someone to cover this in detail!
One of the best advantages of Lossless Scaling is allowing us to play 30fps locked console games in 60fps.
I play Zelda Tears of the Kingdom in the Nintendo Switch and Lossless Scaling at 60fps by using a capture card.
"capture card"
Damn to latency must be horrific.
Soldier I solute you!
Are people not playing games now? What profit do you get in this case lol
@maybebutwhatever he said he's playing on Switch. He's using a capture card and playing the game through the recording window rather than directly on his monitor.
If he was playing it on PC he wouldn't need lossless scaling. There's been native high frame rate patches for Tear since like a week after the game came out.
@@Skylancer727 that's not true also. On most systems totk won't hold 60fps, sadly.
Here's some more use cases I can suggest that I use LS for:
1) Upscaling - obviously LS does upscaling too! Great for old games, especially those with pre-rendered graphics. Just fire it up Windowed and upscale with FSR or another filter for better visuals!
2) Movies, youtube, etc. LS frame gen works anywhere, including your video player, browser, etc. It really does work surprisingly well, I end up watching a LOT of content with LSFG on. 30fps game trailers? Make it 60! Got a movie that you wish was a bit smoother? Make it so! :)
3) CPU-limited games where you have GPU resources to spare. I have a 4090, but a fairly old CPU now, so there are games that struggle a bit on the CPU side, like Baldur's Gate 3 or Kingdom Come: Deliverance. I can play those games at 4K and such no problem, but the framerate leaves a lot to be desired in some places. Well - no more! Those games aren't even fast-paced, so LSFG is absolutely perfect for that! For latency - I find that you can often play around with LS settings to make things more responsive, like disabling the wait for vsync or even using the performance mode (slight visual fidelity loss, which depends on the game, but it can claw back a noticeable amount of latency).
As you say in the video, Alex, the latency is...not really that big of a deal somehow. Yeah, it's there if the base framerate is already very low, but at 50+fps it's actually fine and you quickly forget about it. The extra visual smoothness becomes very compelling, far outweighing the loss of responsiveness in most cases.
That being said... did you really get it to work with VRR? At least on Nvidia cards even the dev said VRR just does not work. If you managed to make it work - I'd like to know how.
I've been using lossless scaling for about a month and in almost every situation it's way better than afmf.
I think this program shines the most when combined with RPCS3 which struggles to emulate PS3 titles on PC for over 30FPS. This combination will unlock Uncharted 3 gameplay on PC for steady 60FPS experience!
I will definitely check the Lossless Scaling with OKAMI, a beautiful game that was locked at 30fps and the studio who made it disbanded..
Not just Okami. Its a big plus for a lot of older games that ran at 30 fps locked. A lot of PS2 games I played on emulator, I ran LS with it too. Almost no issue barring one or two input delay sensitivity moment.
@@IsaacSperrowwait, so for example the warriors on pcsx2 (ps2 emulator) is locked to 30 fps. using lossless scaling i can get past the 30 fps lock?
you can disable the lock in the game through emu settings, but it breaks the gamespeed and makes everything lightning fast. would this tool allow me to run at a smooth 60 with no gamespeed issues?
Yes exactly@@toasty-turnpike
@@toasty-turnpikeYes, LSFG runs completely separately from the engine itself so it's essentially taking whatever frames the game's engine is producing and interpolates that up. I might add that by design none of these FG solutions really work right if your base FPS is lower than 60. I can't speak for LSFG specifically, but any game I've tried with DLSS 3 or FSR 3 on ended up looking worse than native in motion if my base FPS dipped below 50, so I'm going to assume LSFG behaves the same way considering it's technically inferior to Nvidia and AMD's FG solutions
@@someusername1872 i haven’t purchased it yet, i guess i’m just a little confused as to how it would be set up. i believe the warriors is locked to 29 or 30 fps. i have a 144 hz monitor, so what would i have to do to get the game to run at 60? i see users say you need to set the monitor to 120 hz or something?
This works really well for me in Elden Ring.
I feel like I did this for years when i connected my PC to my 3d TV and enabled 120hz motion smoothing.
I mean you basically did it's the same thing just for gaming now
@@IntegerOfDoom those had around 200ms of lag in general. Still ok for fps in solo.
Lossless Scaling is amazing! I have an GTX1660Ti and totaly recommend this software.
I've been using Lossless Scaling for almost a month now and I'm happy that there's a very indepth video now covering all the pros and cons about it that I can point people to when they ask me about it.
Just as the video points out, the best use case is for older games that did not have very high framerates, and keeping in mind the added input latency, if you play with a controller its all very manageable.
Overall, weighting the pros and cons of the program, I am extremely happy with the results it gives, especially since the way it "mods" the frames in doesn't at all touch process memory, which makes it compatible with some stuff like games that use Anti-cheat.
How's it useful then, when people generally use scalers for higher performance with modern games ? Like how often do you read someone say, "I need a scaler for Starcraft 1" ?
@@gamerxt333 Because older games often tend to be locked at lower framerates (often 60, and if you emulate older games, then its often 30 instead), and some of these games can't be patched to be higher framerate without causing all sorts of issues/bugs (i.e. sometimes physics are tied to framerate).
It does work in modern games. People such as myself use it in Helldivers 2 and Elden Ring, and it works really well.
Lossless scaling is the kind of software that has been widely used in specific demographic. Although this video focus on high end pc, the primary target user might have different experience, and here is why.
LS is very popular among windows gaming handheld community. Current handhelds like rog ally have limited performance (gtx 1650 level, time spy 3000 pts) but tiny screen (7 inch), which makes LS perfect for this use case. I use my legion go to play helldivers 2. Originally, the game would only run at absolutely lowest setting at 30fps, but with LS I can boost it up to low-mid at 50fps, which makes it a game changer that turn barely playable to somewhat enjoyable. Also, the artifacts are not visible unless you intentionally try to look for it due to the small screen. Input latency might be higher, but since handhelds uses controller, you will not fell it in non-competitive titles.
Flight sim is also another community that extensively use LS. Games like msfs2020 are extremely resource intensive, and people with mid-range rigs like 4060 struggle to get good framerate. Due to the nature of flight stick, input latency is not really an issue, so most users target 25-30 fps for better visual fidelity. Now with LS, they can have stable 60fps without compromising on immersion.
At last, LS is originally designed as an upscaling software, and certain games like galgame, visual novel, and avg that have artworks shipped in 720p and 1080p can be better enjoyed on large monitor from LS's upscaling algorithm like anime4K.
I mean, sure there are some issues, but when you're playing a game that's either locked to 30 fps, or your PC can only play at like, 30 -40 then the added frames are a game changer. It lets older hardware run so much better.
It's really only for games with locked frame rates. I've noticed the frame rate interpolation is extremely heavy on the GPU. Really if you're playing a game you system can barely handle lossless scaling will only moderately help.
Helldivers 2 at 60fps on a 7840U yes please
@@Skylancer727 Yeah people who think this a free performance tool haven't really been paying attention to the performance hit from when activating it. I mean sure, you'll probably end up with better framerate with LS enabled, but it won't definitely be by much.
@@PedroAndrade25 I disagree, Star citizen and Elden ring both saw massive uplift because of it for me. This software just does what NVIDIA should have done with their DLSS/FRG/etc. but were never able to to that extent.
@@cryonim Probably because your system is good enough to have more than enough spare load to run the tool comfortably. But people with old hardware thinking they're going to get massive FPS boost are in for a rude awakening.
Finally someone made this useful Lossless Scaling video !!! A++
Something you didn't touch upon at all is the performance cost of using Lossless Scaling, you basically need 20% GPU headroom for it to work
Facts, and the higher the base framerate the higher the cost "is"
Tipped me over the edge, and got the app on the Steam Sale - I can't go back to playing without it now!
I wonder what would happen if you did DLSS3 up to 120Hz and then Lossless Scaling up to 240.
A 4k/240 final video starting life out as 720P/60 internally would be hilarious to see.
You could technically do it with FSR 3 + AFMF on Radeon GPUs. The two weren’t meant to be combined, so iirc the end result was a jittery, teary, high-latency mess since both the interpolators tried to display their generated frames at the same time. There’s videos where techtubers try the two out together. I imagine the result would be no better with DLSS 3 + LSFG, since they’re not even from the same software devs.
Then combine that with lossless scaling. It's just the image version of training AI on LLMs!
@@Vorexia AFMF gets disabled when moving the camera a little fast so its pretty useless
@@od1sseas663 I’m aware
Couldn't be worse than the soup that was Jedi Survivor at launch on console.
Works great for emulation
Something like this would be amazing if integrated on the Steam Deck UI, similar to what we have for FSR2. Imagine that: you set FPS to 90 and turn on 2x frame generation. The game will be locked at 45fps and frame gen will interpolate to 90fps, automatically.
It wouldn't be so cut-and-dry, though. LSFG has a performance cost - and a noticeable one at that, since it's not running on any dedicated hardware like DLSS would. It is not uncommon that you'd run a game on PC, say, at 80fps and expect LSFG to give you 160, but with it on you are only getting like 65 to 130. And this happens with a 4090 as well (I know, because I have one, though the biggest penalty is obviously at 4K+). So it very much depends on the game and how much GPU headroom you have left.
Wave Race Blue Storm is finally out of its 30 FPS lock hell thanks to this.
Freedom Fighters deserves a sequel❤
I’ve been using lossless scaling for about six months. It’s great for use on the Ally and LeGo. It’s fairly inexpensive and really improves the experience. This is a great booster for the developers. Great video!
I use LS FG alot with ps3 emulated games, its has its flaws but its great for older titles.
This mod has been really wicked for space marine 2
If you allow tearing in LSFG I find it greatly reduces input latency. Without it on, using a mouse in Helldivers 2 the input lag is unbearable but as soon as i turn on allow tearing it became imperceptible in x2 mode. Even in x3 it was the input lag was minor. Pretty surprised but I'll take the increase fluidity in a game for that minor incovenience any day
And I'm watching this through Lossless Scaling's frame generation :D
One of the fun use cases, just set something (youtube, vlc, etc) on fullscreen and fg away!
Machine learning is a stretch. This tech exists in most mid to high end tvs. Sony calls its motion flow
Not everyone has a high end tv, and most play on gaming monitors anyways
I don't think you know what machine learning is. They used it to set up the parameters of the interpolation most likely, not to perform the adjustment itself.
@@waltuhputurdawaymost play on TVs
this looks like how you remember games in your mind. sucks going back to an older game and then having being spoiled by newer hardware and frame rates it feels unplayable even though it’s exactly the way it released but something still feels off. i’m obsessed w this
Is there a reason Alex never uses driver level frame caps? I always just cap my frames in the nvidia control panel and it works great.
driver frame rate cap is somewhat unstable and just not as good as rtss or special k cap
Does special K play nice with online games or will it be flagged by anticheat?
@@PintsofGuinness special k will be flagged by anticheat but rtss won't have that problem. generally rtss is easier to use so, to the non-enthusiast-tinkerers i think rtss is better option. special k is a very powerful tool but it's very finicky and doesnt work with all games.
I've never had an issue with NVIDIA control panel framerate caps, and I have it set globally for every program. Maybe if you're a super enthusiast tech person you could notice some issue but I can't.
@@Revalopod hey, if your happy with it don't let me stop you, but there is a measurable difference. i have a friend who was playing monster hunter world on ps4 so i mentioned that ps4 version has unlocked and unstable 30-40 fps gameplay and he had no idea what i was talking about and was happy with that version and had fun with it. different ppl have different tolerances for these things and that's completely cool.
Haven't tried the frame generation in the program yet, but this program's upscaling capabilities are perfect for being able to play on a 4K display on low to mid-range GPU's.
LA noire was 30fps locked due to the animation capture system. I think i played it with a 60fps mod yesrs ago, but it broke some physics and such since Rockstsr never intended it to be more than 30. Im guessing thats all fixed in modern re-releases but since i dont own those, this id a great way to re-exprrience the title
Another bonus I'd like to add: I like to play lower end games on my main setup because it's convenient, and during this time of year, it gets hot. Locking the game at 30 and using LS to do 60, actually uses less power on my RTX 3080 than running native 60. It's great.
Solid idea. I have the same problem. No AC in my gaming room.
A game I use this A LOT is The Crew: Motorfest, since its locked to 60fps. It adds latency, yeah, but the image fluidity is amazing.
Thanks for mentioning brother, I'm thinking of using this with Crew MF.
What's your experience like in terms of ghosting? Also, what GPU are you using? 🤩 thanks bro!
@@Mew_York_Kitty Ghosting, or artefacts rather, appear mostly around the character/car you are using if you look hard enough in my experience
@@TotallyCreativeNameBtw awesome, thanks for your feedback brother - appreciate you! 🍾🍻🌟
@@TotallyCreativeNameBtw totally fantastic name btw😆
@@Mew_York_Kitty the gsme have already a weird artifacting with screen space reflections around the car, while it add some artifactings, is not that distracting tbh
I have been waiting a long time for this video
@DigitalFoundry really needs to review said features of software. They just breeze through Lossless without doing a deep dive on its settings. This review was better than the last but they didn't cover much of how to properly use the tool. You can allow screen tearing to reduce latency and its worth the payoff especially native portrait handhelds. You should diable v-sync in game but can enable it inside Lossless. There are key selectable capture APIs (DXGI/WGC) for frame generation inside Lossless that have different pro and cons to seeing artifacts with performance differences but none of them were shown here in this video or the last video. AFMF requires all games to be run in exclusive full screen mode which doesn't always bode well for handhelds that have native portrait displays. Lossless requires running in a window mode which helps get around exclusive fullscreen limited games. Plus if you run a game in borderless fullscreen you end up forcing the game to the native resolution set by windows. This can hinder your performance if you need the game to run at lower resolutions. In Lossless you can assign a scaling option to reduce the resolution by a custom scaling factor to increase performance. Tick the Status box arrow inside Lossless to see the reported rescale numbers. The Lossless upscalers can also help sharpen games that are over soften because of temporal aliasing. I believe Lossless works better for 1st person games vs 3rd person if you wish to observe less artifacts but its a major boon for handhelds even if the goal is going for lower frame targets. You have selectable performance modes to lower the frame gen costs on your gpu (you should also mention?). You can limit the frames to 33 fps in RTSS and set display to 100hz at 3x performance LSFG 2.1 mode or shoot a slightly higher cap for less latency. There is a lot of experimentation needed as one Lossless capture api will yield different results per game engine.
This is already covered perfectly. This is not intended to be a how-to or a deep dive into the intricacies of the software. It covers the tech in an easy to understand way; which is essentially @DigitalFoundry’s MO.
DF are not the tech gurus many think they are. They get a lot of things fundamentally wrong like they apologetic points they made for Starfield
Glad to see this hidden gem get some love
Problem is, aren't like 85% of people still only using 60hz monitors?
Some games are locked to 30. Some people can't reach 60. Some people do have high refresh monitors.
Not really a problem for a niche software product
I will 100% use it
Lossless Scaling gives me 50 fps in Elden Ring instead of 25... now its playable so theres that.
This is a must have in any handheld pc. With this i play crash bandicoot remake and crash 4 in 60 fps, 15 tdp.
Amazing to see Lossless Scaling getting more public appraised
This tool is a must for anyone no matter where you are at the PC performance spectrum
This was such a good topic to cover