No flaps obvious go around, the stall speed is way higher with no flaps but a landing is still possible with adequate runway, but not when it's done on the fly. Go around, line back up and touch down as close to the start of the runway as possible with acceptable speed that won't cause a stall and they should be fine. If the runway isn't long enough for that than divert and declare and emergency to land wherever you need to.
- "Should I go around ?" - "No !" It was sealed there. Terrible to watch. I wonder what he was doing below 500 ft and I was shocked to understand he was still trying to land in such a situation ! Flaps not coming down, build speed, go around, communicate with ATC, try to fix the issue or prepare for a no flaps landing with specific briefing and landing distance estimation or diversion. I don't know the full story but I really wonder what put them in such an urge to land what ever. Short of fuel ? Why the hell the PM stayed passive while is colleague was leading them to disaster ? Was there the weather degradating with no fuel to divert ? There was clearly something putting pressure on them to land whatever.
The minute I read: "You know what, we have no flaps", I went "Go the f*ck around". You need that time to assess the situation and come up with a proper plan. But they just wanted to go home early. No bold old pilot...
I don't know the whole story but I'm pretty sure that there was something like weather degradating with no more enough fuel for diversion or minimum holding. Probably due to bad flight preparation or bad decision making before the point of no return. They were both urged to get on the ground wathever. It was sealed way before the approach in my opinion. Because if it's not something like that, I see no explanation of why two airliners pilots did such a series of mistakes in such a short amount of time during an approach below 1000 ft and then below 500 ft while at 500, it was miraculously almost recovered... I was shocked to understand that the Pilot Flying having nearly crashed, continued to try to land with the Pilot Monitoring completely silent like he was agreeing such a craziness ! By 1000 ft it was already critical !
@@jasonhowell7763 Yeah - if someone asks should we go around - answer is yes! She was right too (26 year old female I think). Captain was an idiot - 52 year old guy - wants to continue in. At the point she asked about going around they'd been no flaps, no glideslope, didn't have runway, they had a stick shaker I think stall warning etc etc. Not a good stabilized setup!
Why the urgency to land coming from the Capt? The wings are unstable the only thing you have going is altitude but rather than climb the crew have this "Whatever, it'll work itself out" mindset.
from Wikipædia: _"The National Transportation Safety Board determines that the probable cause of this accident was the flight crew's failure to monitor and maintain a minimum safe airspeed while executing an instrument approach in icing conditions, which resulted in an aerodynamic stall at low altitude. Contributing to the accident were 1) the flight crew's failure to follow published standard operating procedures in response to a flap anomaly, 2) the captain's decision to continue with the unstabilized approach, 3) the flight crew's poor crew resource management, and 4) fatigue due to the time of day in which the accident occurred and a cumulative sleep debt, which likely impaired the captain's performance."_ 11,500' runway
Why were they landing so slow with no/assymetric flaps? Don't they realize no flaps raises stall speed? WTH? They even called it out themselves, "hey we have no flaps" Dude, go around and sort it out.
go around was good call by f/o. captain made wrong choice by taking control. no flaps, close to stall, not aligned with runway on final. no way this wouldve gone right
Wow, first they don’t go,around when no flaps deployed, then the right seat says go around and the left seat says NO? The right seat confirms flaps TWICE.. what the heck was he looking at. Then watch the throttling on this .. yeesh. Worst flight management I’ve ever seen.
Pressure job i know, but watching these clips flight crews never seem to want to go round and take stock if the situation when there is a confirmed problem, don’t all shout at me I’m not a pilot its only an observation .
@@ChrisHarringtonMinneapolis would a go around be recorded by the airport and then recorded in their personal pilot logbook, or kick in a govt. review of some kind??
Yeah I have observed (I have now watched about 25 ACI Videos), when something in the panel/controls was not working, it seems some pilots get stuck in denial and magical thinking, that it's just going to change. Sort of like an auto driver, seeing a red oil light illuminate and think they have time do drive to the next gas station-NOT--pull over immediately and shut down or major engine damage will occur! Or the auto driver gets a tire blow out, and they think, 'Is that 'really' a blowout'. YES, pull over. Weird phenomena!?#$% Another word for denial is disbelief! AND it takes great patience to 'redo' anything that is not working out right, from painting a room the right color (after getting the color or tone wrong) to going to the hardware store or grocery store when some project has a failed part [which I just had in getting the right plumbing connector, but the supply line to the water heater was leaking] I think some of these pilot errors come down to personality and cognitive thinking and PATIENCE, belief vs disbelief, reality vs denial, etc. Hope this make sense, oh and HONESTY IS THE BEST POLICY IN THE COCKPIT. A good thing on this approach is the comm of 'Do you want me to take it' and 'yes take it' humility is the way to go, pride of 'Nah I got it, when you don't is deadly'. ----- If you have not seen the tragic children's death from the idiot Kazakhstan DHL not holding their altitude then the idiot Russian pilot 'after' hearing ATC advise them to descend, he did not TELL the ATC that his TECAS was advising him to ascend, had he done that, the ATC knew he was unable to talk to DHL in time, and tell the Russian 'follow TECAS'! So unfortunate when they had collision prevention, expensive equipment on board!
Hopefully you tell the pilots this each time you board an aircraft. Be sure to point out that although you haven't gone through any kind of flight training, or gone through the rigorous procedures and cockpit management training like they have, (and don't even know how to spell TCAS for that matter), you have however seen over 25 accident videos on TH-cam.
@kewkabe I don't know why the NTSB go to all the trouble of investigating air accidents when they could just ask all these 'experts' on TH-cam. There's millions of them on here, a totally wasted resource IMO.
The question with asymmetric flaps is will they both come up if one is damaged? It may stay fixed and totally screw you when you put power in for the go round. I got caught with this as a low time student doing circuit consolidation on the first landing the flaps both came down but there was a pronounced and very alarming roll to starboard. I considered going round but decided I could land it and called it quits for the day! Turns out one flap was a bit loose on the torsion tube. I'm not sure putting on power and trying to go round may have been these folks best option.
@Computer Whisperer Good point most folk are having fun at the pilots expense, I always reminded myself there is no such thing as a perfectly good aeroplane before jumping out.
This is an ATR not a cessna 152. If youre able to still land with asymmetric flaps, youre able to go around with asymmetric flaps. Youll notice they were nowhere near full aileron deflection they had plenty of control authority to go missed.
odd. i saw the NTSB instrument mockup and murmured “what is up with the flaps?” several seconds before the CVR showed the pilot’s words on-screen. then there is mention of a stick shaker and guess what i saw the nose do next? damn plane probably would have lifted itself into a go around if it was being flown correctly. this is why i hate to fly. every industry can rank its employees on a bell curve. Sully was likely in the 85th percentile or higher, as was his co-pilot. but you never know when you are going to get the crew that falls on the left side of the curve. relative to most they are still highly skilled but relative to their peers they are “ok” yea i know...statistically flying is safer than blah blah blah...but i have been in 3 car accidents where the other person was at fault and i was able to walk away. you cant give me those same odds in plane accidents.
No kidding. I've flown a number of three hour flights and it saves me three days, but will all the other BS we have to deal with I think I'll plan ahead and drive. Wondering whyi the autopilot was on until the last moment???
Stuff like this is nonsense... I am not an ATP and I don't fly with souls on board other than my own... but got-damn it cuz!!! You have to follow the check list... and respect the check list... short cuts can get people killed.. There are two people in this cockpit and simply putting down the handle is not a check... that skipping steps because you have to confirm the setting... hearing the servo is not checking is it? Again I am not a trained Heavy pilot. But you have to think it's not a good idea to lean on your hours flying the type that you can say ok flaps down.. because I heard the sound. Checklist steps should not be skip confirming the config if there is some type of working indicator should be the order of the day! Then the lead pilot assumed what the issue was... and not confirmed the issue by looking at the the MFD or Dash that may have shown the mis-config... The first thing a good IP will tell you when you start flying is how important decision making is. Not sure about doing something and you have the gas to go around.. go around. Capt'n "I got It" should have called for the go around... but nope... he relied on his balls... and went for the no flap landing, pulling all the power out and scared that shit out of everybody on board. Glad they made it out ok, but that air crew needs some retraining because this mishap could have been avoided!
+Богдан Ковальчук NOT going by this animation . If it was their best they would have landed fine like all other times. Seem the co-pilot forgot to lower the flaps properly them from there it just got deeper and deeper into unstable approach
"The National Transportation Safety Board determines that the probable cause of this accident was the flight crew's failure to monitor and maintain a minimum safe airspeed while executing an instrument approach in icing conditions, which resulted in an aerodynamic stall at low altitude. Contributing to the accident were 1) the flight crew's failure to follow published standard operating procedures in response to a flap anomaly, 2) the captain's decision to continue with the unstabilized approach, 3) the flight crew's poor crew resource management, and 4) fatigue due to the time of day in which the accident occurred and a cumulative sleep debt, which likely impaired the captain's performance."
Good to know you agree with and would have done exactly the same thing as this crew "AV8R". I pray to God you're never at the controls of any plane within 1000 miles of me.
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They ran out of altitude, airspeed and ideas all at the same time.
Every time I hear a pilot tell the tower the reason for the go around is "unstable approach", I think to myself GOOD CALL!
Wow, the pilots were highly fortunate to have survived this crash.
No flaps obvious go around, the stall speed is way higher with no flaps but a landing is still possible with adequate runway, but not when it's done on the fly. Go around, line back up and touch down as close to the start of the runway as possible with acceptable speed that won't cause a stall and they should be fine.
If the runway isn't long enough for that than divert and declare and emergency to land wherever you need to.
These are fascinating to watch, just discovered by accident (no pun intended) and am hooked.
- "Should I go around ?"
- "No !"
It was sealed there.
Terrible to watch.
I wonder what he was doing below 500 ft and I was shocked to understand he was still trying to land in such a situation !
Flaps not coming down, build speed, go around, communicate with ATC, try to fix the issue or prepare for a no flaps landing with specific briefing and landing distance estimation or diversion.
I don't know the full story but I really wonder what put them in such an urge to land what ever. Short of fuel ?
Why the hell the PM stayed passive while is colleague was leading them to disaster ? Was there the weather degradating with no fuel to divert ?
There was clearly something putting pressure on them to land whatever.
How do you not scream go around in this situation
It was suggested by the FO (HOT-2) and the CAPT (HOT-1) answered "no" at 1:45 in the TH-cam video, 04:35:41 in the NTSB animation.
Pilots call it "get there-itis".
The minute I read: "You know what, we have no flaps", I went "Go the f*ck around". You need that time to assess the situation and come up with a proper plan. But they just wanted to go home early. No bold old pilot...
I thought: "throttle up and go around!"
I don't know the whole story but I'm pretty sure that there was something like weather degradating with no more enough fuel for diversion or minimum holding.
Probably due to bad flight preparation or bad decision making before the point of no return.
They were both urged to get on the ground wathever.
It was sealed way before the approach in my opinion.
Because if it's not something like that, I see no explanation of why two airliners pilots did such a series of mistakes in such a short amount of time during an approach below 1000 ft and then below 500 ft while at 500, it was miraculously almost recovered... I was shocked to understand that the Pilot Flying having nearly crashed, continued to try to land with the Pilot Monitoring completely silent like he was agreeing such a craziness !
By 1000 ft it was already critical !
One of them even says "should I go around?" and the other says "no".
@@jasonhowell7763 Yeah - if someone asks should we go around - answer is yes! She was right too (26 year old female I think). Captain was an idiot - 52 year old guy - wants to continue in. At the point she asked about going around they'd been no flaps, no glideslope, didn't have runway, they had a stick shaker I think stall warning etc etc. Not a good stabilized setup!
Why the urgency to land coming from the Capt? The wings are unstable the only thing you have going is altitude but rather than climb the crew have this "Whatever, it'll work itself out" mindset.
Well the plane touched down, didn't it?
They came in on one wing and one prayer.
Wikipedia says the crew survived
+Sean Luo and so does the end of the video xD
Asymmetric flaps and rather than go around and sort out the problem they decided to continue the approach - heroes - NOT.
Who called them heroes?
Peter Lovett ssa, wax,
...would not 'of' - should 'of' gone...give me strength.
You missed "there window".
More information:
aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=20090127-0
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Empire_Airlines_Flight_8284
from Wikipædia:
_"The National Transportation Safety Board determines that the probable cause of this accident was the flight crew's failure to monitor and maintain a minimum safe airspeed while executing an instrument approach in icing conditions, which resulted in an aerodynamic stall at low altitude. Contributing to the accident were 1) the flight crew's failure to follow published standard operating procedures in response to a flap anomaly, 2) the captain's decision to continue with the unstabilized approach, 3) the flight crew's poor crew resource management, and 4) fatigue due to the time of day in which the accident occurred and a cumulative sleep debt, which likely impaired the captain's performance."_
11,500' runway
"Should I go around?"
"No"
I am so interested in this, and also, you know stuff is bad when you overcorrect that much
that would have been a damn good time for Togo
It's TOGA Take-off/Go Around (TO/GA) :)
why was engines at idle half the time and flaps different..
They tried to counter yoke it in. That never works when you try to cowboy it in.
Why were they landing so slow with no/assymetric flaps? Don't they realize no flaps raises stall speed? WTH? They even called it out themselves, "hey we have no flaps" Dude, go around and sort it out.
Thats so called "target focus" both pilots was affected.
No audio
Hey, why is the government recording my flight sim landing attempts?
go around was good call by f/o. captain made wrong choice by taking control. no flaps, close to stall, not aligned with runway on final. no way this wouldve gone right
Wow, first they don’t go,around when no flaps deployed, then the right seat says go around and the left seat says NO? The right seat confirms flaps TWICE.. what the heck was he looking at. Then watch the throttling on this .. yeesh. Worst flight management I’ve ever seen.
hell this had me yelling power and go around at my screen at least 10x i suck at fsx and am quite dumb and i knew that
Flap split. Memory item 1: return to previous flap setting.
Done, problem fixed.
Pressure job i know, but watching these clips flight crews never seem to want to go round and take stock if the situation when there is a confirmed problem, don’t all shout at me I’m not a pilot its only an observation .
They don't make videos about the crews that did the right thing 😂
@@ChrisHarringtonMinneapolis would a go around be recorded by the airport and then recorded in their personal pilot logbook, or kick in a govt. review of some kind??
Yeah I have observed (I have now watched about 25 ACI Videos), when something in the panel/controls was not working, it seems some pilots get stuck in denial and magical thinking, that it's just going to change. Sort of like an auto driver, seeing a red oil light illuminate and think they have time do drive to the next gas station-NOT--pull over immediately and shut down or major engine damage will occur! Or the auto driver gets a tire blow out, and they think, 'Is that 'really' a blowout'. YES, pull over. Weird phenomena!?#$% Another word for denial is disbelief!
AND it takes great patience to 'redo' anything that is not working out right, from painting a room the right color (after getting the color or tone wrong) to going to the hardware store or grocery store when some project has a failed part [which I just had in getting the right plumbing connector, but the supply line to the water heater was leaking] I think some of these pilot errors come down to personality and cognitive thinking and PATIENCE, belief vs disbelief, reality vs denial, etc. Hope this make sense, oh and HONESTY IS THE BEST POLICY IN THE COCKPIT. A good thing on this approach is the comm of 'Do you want me to take it' and 'yes take it' humility is the way to go, pride of 'Nah I got it, when you don't is deadly'. ----- If you have not seen the tragic children's death from the idiot Kazakhstan DHL not holding their altitude then the idiot Russian pilot 'after' hearing ATC advise them to descend, he did not TELL the ATC that his TECAS was advising him to ascend, had he done that, the ATC knew he was unable to talk to DHL in time, and tell the Russian 'follow TECAS'! So unfortunate when they had collision prevention, expensive equipment on board!
Hopefully you tell the pilots this each time you board an aircraft. Be sure to point out that although you haven't gone through any kind of flight training, or gone through the rigorous procedures and cockpit management training like they have, (and don't even know how to spell TCAS for that matter), you have however seen over 25 accident videos on TH-cam.
@kewkabe
I don't know why the NTSB go to all the trouble of investigating air accidents when they could just ask all these 'experts' on TH-cam.
There's millions of them on here, a totally wasted resource IMO.
Its referred to as "Continuation Bias", there has been a lot written about it already.
SMH
Any PAX on the plane? Just the front end crew?
This was a FedEx plane
@@RainbowManification Sometimes have a jump-seater trying to get home or getting repositioned.
This scares me to have such incompetent pilots flying folks
What is the Memory Itens for a Flap Unlock? If Flaps Unlock during Approach, Go Around Procedure and VGA Not Less than VminOPS.
Gotta come in much faster with no flaps ffs
Aaand the decision to go around was made too late.
Remember; you can always go around.
Trying to use the same speed for flaps up landing? wow. Respect the shaker! Specially if it is also banking.
Yes let’s throttle down and forget till 125
Who's enjoying this?
The question with asymmetric flaps is will they both come up if one is damaged? It may stay fixed and totally screw you when you put power in for the go round. I got caught with this as a low time student doing circuit consolidation on the first landing the flaps both came down but there was a pronounced and very alarming roll to starboard. I considered going round but decided I could land it and called it quits for the day! Turns out one flap was a bit loose on the torsion tube. I'm not sure putting on power and trying to go round may have been these folks best option.
@Computer Whisperer Good point most folk are having fun at the pilots expense, I always reminded myself there is no such thing as a perfectly good aeroplane before jumping out.
Think the same 👍
This is an ATR not a cessna 152. If youre able to still land with asymmetric flaps, youre able to go around with asymmetric flaps. Youll notice they were nowhere near full aileron deflection they had plenty of control authority to go missed.
1:42 "just keep flying the airplane" .....as neither monitor airspeed. Shame
I'm yelling at the screen " more throttle, more throttle".
I don't know what they thinking. They really can go around for this situation
yes yes gravity sucks
A little body filler and she's good to go.
sound?
Read the description...no audio
Its amazing how many CFIs there are in these comments.
THE ANIMATION "WABBLE", AND THE "DEBRIS FIELD", DONT MATCH UP............WHOS WRONG HERE........I'M GOING TO SAY THE "N.T.S.B.!"
odd. i saw the NTSB instrument mockup and murmured “what is up with the flaps?” several seconds before the CVR showed the pilot’s words on-screen.
then there is mention of a stick shaker and guess what i saw the nose do next?
damn plane probably would have lifted itself into a go around if it was being flown correctly.
this is why i hate to fly. every industry can rank its employees on a bell curve. Sully was likely in the 85th percentile or higher, as was his co-pilot.
but you never know when you are going to get the crew that falls on the left side of the curve. relative to most they are still highly skilled but relative to their peers they are “ok”
yea i know...statistically flying is safer than blah blah blah...but i have been in 3 car accidents where the other person was at fault and i was able to walk away.
you cant give me those same odds in plane accidents.
No kidding. I've flown a number of three hour flights and it saves me three days, but will all the other BS we have to deal with I think I'll plan ahead and drive. Wondering whyi the autopilot was on until the last moment???
Wtf is this?
Stuff like this is nonsense... I am not an ATP and I don't fly with souls on board other than my own... but got-damn it cuz!!!
You have to follow the check list... and respect the check list... short cuts can get people killed..
There are two people in this cockpit and simply putting down the handle is not a check... that skipping steps because you have to confirm the setting... hearing the servo is not checking is it?
Again I am not a trained Heavy pilot. But you have to think it's not a good idea to lean on your hours flying the type that you can say ok flaps down.. because I heard the sound. Checklist steps should not be skip confirming the config if there is some type of working indicator should be the order of the day!
Then the lead pilot assumed what the issue was... and not confirmed the issue by looking at the the MFD or Dash that may have shown the mis-config...
The first thing a good IP will tell you when you start flying is how important decision making is. Not sure about doing something and you have the gas to go around.. go around.
Capt'n "I got It" should have called for the go around... but nope... he relied on his balls... and went for the no flap landing, pulling all the power out and scared that shit out of everybody on board.
Glad they made it out ok, but that air crew needs some retraining because this mishap could have been avoided!
They have done their best... but it wasn't enought unfortunatly. (
+Богдан Ковальчук NOT going by this animation .
If it was their best they would have landed fine like all other times.
Seem the co-pilot forgot to lower the flaps properly them from there it just got deeper and deeper into unstable approach
No actually the best course of action would have been to go around, continuing on an unstablized approach was a poor decision.
airplanes = limited controlled rockets flying horizontally..
TOGO.
bunch of disrespectful FSX and private pilots Monday morning quarterbacking
"The National Transportation Safety Board determines that the probable cause of this accident was the flight crew's failure to monitor and maintain a minimum safe airspeed while executing an instrument approach in icing conditions, which resulted in an aerodynamic stall at low altitude. Contributing to the accident were 1) the flight crew's failure to follow published standard operating procedures in response to a flap anomaly, 2) the captain's decision to continue with the unstabilized approach, 3) the flight crew's poor crew resource management, and 4) fatigue due to the time of day in which the accident occurred and a cumulative sleep debt, which likely impaired the captain's performance."
The results of this approach would clearly indicate ‘quarterbacking’ is warranted.
Good to know you agree with and would have done exactly the same thing as this crew "AV8R".
I pray to God you're never at the controls of any plane within 1000 miles of me.