For combos, I think MVCI's combo breaker was a very elegant solution. The defender can choose to spend meter to tag in their other character when being comboed, but they now risk getting both of their characters comboed, plus they still have to stop the attacker from killing the other character or dealing massive damage. The attacker can also drop the combo and fight the other character, or even tag in their own to counter this strategy. It made MVCI very scrambly and fun because while there's no additional constant tax on the defender like Melty's minigame gave, they have the power to combo break at almost any time and once they do, the outcome can be varied. For supers, I think SFV and Strive both have the right idea by making the cinematics mostly short and sweet but they still lose their impact after a long time playing. The problem with cinematic supers is that a lot of cash and hype goes into them, the casuals wanna do them and the devs want people to use them. But for spectators and players, they can quickly wear out their welcome. Here's a few ideas on how I'd fix this: - make multiple short, sweet cinematic supers instead of one big, long one. Divide your ideas into multiple ones, so that the players can see different stuff. - Give people ways of using meter outside of supers. The more they use other options, the less they'll have to use the supers. - Make supers high risk, high reward. When you see someone try it, it should feel like a sudden "oh shit!" moment followed by triumph or failure. - Try not making supers that just act as combo enders. Supers are more hype when used in neutral. Making a slow, but hit invulnerable super could be really fun to be used as a callout move. Sol's H.M.C. is that, but suffers from the fact that it sucks and Tyrant Rave is just better in every situation.
I really like that SF6 is bringing back multiple supers but i’m worried that they’ll only be cinematic combo enders instead of trying to bring back SF3’s super system. Albeit flawed and often lead to one making the other 2 obsolete, Ryu’s supers made picking them a meaningful decision about how you wanted to play the character. SA1 was really basic and easy to land, but SA2 gives you a round ender but sacrifices meter usage because you only had one stock. Then SA3 comes along and introduces unblockable stun setups for Ryu giving him something dirtier to play with compared to his honest kit. This kind of character variance is so interesting to me and I feel like SFV has shown that a lot of these ideas worked in diversifying a character’s kit, but also has many obsolete options that lead to the best way of playing
skullgirls has two really cool examples of ways to change super move timing. first, is valentine's level 3 super, "Dead On Arrival." if it connects, it shows a really cool cinematic, but if the valentine player holds one of the punch buttons as the screen fades out, the animation will be much shorter, letting both players get back to the gameplay. the other example i wanted to bring up is one of Black Dahlia's level 1 supers, "Parting Gift." basically, for one bar of meter, you can throw a stickybomb that can attach to the opponent (and other things, but that's not related to my point!) which, once it's attached, lets you input the super's command again, freezing the screen and putting Black Dahlia in an animation where she's about to press a button to detonate the bomb. To make her actually detonate it, finishing the super, you yourself have to press/release a button on the controller during the screen freeze. but if the Black Dahlia player so chooses, they can wait a long time to do so, which will start draining super meter. you can "spend" up to one extra bar of meter in this way, for no other purpose than to draw out the animation for dramatic effect. there is no gameplay benefit, it's purely to be fun, silly, or maybe a little bit toxic! in a way, it reminds me of guilty gear Xrd's "Rakusyo!" where you give your opponent an advantage just to send a message. that's probably my favorite "taunt mechanic" (for lack of a better term) in any fighting game, because the added "cost" means you *really* only see them when emotions are running high, it's so dramatic! i wonder how much design space there could be for similar concepts in cinematic supers?
I love your channel dude !!! My fav. type of supers are the ones from the KOF series, up to XIII, as they are beautiful, exciting and don't interfere with the rhythm of the match
that would definitely cut down on wasted time, but would also remove nerve-wracking "will it kill?" moments, where the length of the cinematic serves to create huge tension. maybe a worthy trade, maybe not.
@@lullaboid Lativa's SSBA is long, but at least entertaining throughout it's 2nd half of the animation (the countdown part). GBFV in general has most supers not play full animation if the initial hit connected from too far away (it also didn't deal full damage that way). Overall, DBFZ Dramatic Finish cinematics might actually be the best of both worlds (now if only regular supers were properly short and Dramatic Finishes a bit easier to land, that'd be perfect).
teching and possible reasons to not air tech is the most common way to keep both players involved during most combo heavy anime games, that wasn't mentioned here.
Valentine immediately comes to mind with the "Tell me where it hurts." And being able to skip the animation's long jump scare sequence to get back to the action. We should have more of this, where the player gets to CHOOSE whether the super plays a longer or shorter version for the sake of pacing. If we can skip intros, and in some cases outros, why can't we skip supers? Both are used as a means of giving the player downtime during a match, its just that one starts before the match, one is during, and one is after its over.
The point about how pacing is effected by familiarity is crucial. The more you play a game (or the more you play fighting games in general), the less breaks are needed and the more frustrating they become. I am not sure how games can be paced correctly, when the correct pace for the game changes with time spent with the game.
I think Ladiva had a super with a mechanic that could help with cinematic lengths. Her super is that she pins the opponent and a referee counts down. The damage is calculated at the first hit, and if it kills the pin goes a full 3 seconds and Ladiva wins, but if it doesn't, the opponent escapes before 3. So it would be nice if a super always does the same damage, but if it doesn't kill, the animation plays a shorter version, and only the full cinematic is for a KO.
As a DBFZ player from Season 1 till now. I used to really hate Bardock and GT's lvl3. Nowadays because of how DBFZ has evolved you really will appreciate the 300 timer and the lvl3 okis alot more on high level, this is because its a really good break on neutral and gives you time to think and adapt how you got hit, and make a gameplan before the LVL3 oki starts. Its an acquired taste but i really hope they dont change the pacing for DBFZ2, once youre used to high level DBFZ its really something you really dont want changed.
Samurai showdown VSP have fatality that very difficult to pull off but very stratifying so they don’t over stay their welcome. I think game that have unique "breaks" would be the Touhu fighting games with "declare" Mechanic. There is also is Golden fantasia Umineko "meta rebuttal" mechanic, though that appear frequently I think drags the pace down too. Project justice partner system is also another one im not a fan of. Shout out to Pokken with its phase shift, assist, and synergy mode for good pacing imo.
The player executing the super should decide whether to go with the full animation or just a 5 second version of it. So you just hold a button if you want to enter the cinematic - and if you've been playing the game for months - it's very unlikely you'll hold it. Another way is to give the supers a 20% chance of going into full animation...maybe even less.
Hey friend, one day I saw you playing a turn base RPG in live, I thought I wrote down the name, but I can't find it. If it doesn't bother you, which games of this type did you play live?
I think it's fine if players have a way to break combos even if the combos are long/infinite, Just look at KOF, it works fine. My issue with other team games like Marvel or Skullgirls is that they never reset to neutral. I can accept dying in one or two touches if I can start the next round/character at neutral, but losing a character and immediately starting the next in a bad (or in MVC2 inescapable) situation is frustrating. As much as I dislike DBFZ, It's still more pallatelable than spending the whole game on defense and losing.
I don't care what anyone says, or if I'm in the minority. I hate long combos, long stun/crowd control duration, or anything that takes control away for more than a couple seconds in any PvP game. If its a multiplayer game, it should become 'single-player' as infrequently as possible. I treat that as a universal requirement in PvP game design, regardless of genre. So the only FGs of the last decade that I've truly enjoyed are games like VF5US, SamSho 2019, Blade Strangers, and Punch Planet. I used to enjoy early Tekken 7, but the devs have made the game more offense-focused and combo oriented with each patch, pushing me away from it. And I haven't tried KoF 15 yet, but I'm told its one of the rare recent FGs that are rewarding to "Heart players" like myself. So, I may get it on a deep discount someday. Overall, I just prefer short combos and high damage for short rounds that are dense with player interactions. Even better if it has a short round timer (like in VF) which allows defensive play to be as viable as offensive play. Heck, even the optimal choice in some scenarios.
We are back and we have some big things planned... 👀
Hey novritltataki do you remember playtowin
we miss you :(
Listening to that intro again made my ears cry.
For combos, I think MVCI's combo breaker was a very elegant solution. The defender can choose to spend meter to tag in their other character when being comboed, but they now risk getting both of their characters comboed, plus they still have to stop the attacker from killing the other character or dealing massive damage. The attacker can also drop the combo and fight the other character, or even tag in their own to counter this strategy. It made MVCI very scrambly and fun because while there's no additional constant tax on the defender like Melty's minigame gave, they have the power to combo break at almost any time and once they do, the outcome can be varied.
For supers, I think SFV and Strive both have the right idea by making the cinematics mostly short and sweet but they still lose their impact after a long time playing.
The problem with cinematic supers is that a lot of cash and hype goes into them, the casuals wanna do them and the devs want people to use them. But for spectators and players, they can quickly wear out their welcome.
Here's a few ideas on how I'd fix this:
- make multiple short, sweet cinematic supers instead of one big, long one. Divide your ideas into multiple ones, so that the players can see different stuff.
- Give people ways of using meter outside of supers. The more they use other options, the less they'll have to use the supers.
- Make supers high risk, high reward. When you see someone try it, it should feel like a sudden "oh shit!" moment followed by triumph or failure.
- Try not making supers that just act as combo enders. Supers are more hype when used in neutral. Making a slow, but hit invulnerable super could be really fun to be used as a callout move. Sol's H.M.C. is that, but suffers from the fact that it sucks and Tyrant Rave is just better in every situation.
Honestly, the best fighting game YT channel I have ever seen. Amazing quality and very clearly explained concepts. I love it!
I really like that SF6 is bringing back multiple supers but i’m worried that they’ll only be cinematic combo enders instead of trying to bring back SF3’s super system. Albeit flawed and often lead to one making the other 2 obsolete, Ryu’s supers made picking them a meaningful decision about how you wanted to play the character. SA1 was really basic and easy to land, but SA2 gives you a round ender but sacrifices meter usage because you only had one stock. Then SA3 comes along and introduces unblockable stun setups for Ryu giving him something dirtier to play with compared to his honest kit. This kind of character variance is so interesting to me and I feel like SFV has shown that a lot of these ideas worked in diversifying a character’s kit, but also has many obsolete options that lead to the best way of playing
Man i miss this channel
skullgirls has two really cool examples of ways to change super move timing. first, is valentine's level 3 super, "Dead On Arrival." if it connects, it shows a really cool cinematic, but if the valentine player holds one of the punch buttons as the screen fades out, the animation will be much shorter, letting both players get back to the gameplay.
the other example i wanted to bring up is one of Black Dahlia's level 1 supers, "Parting Gift." basically, for one bar of meter, you can throw a stickybomb that can attach to the opponent (and other things, but that's not related to my point!) which, once it's attached, lets you input the super's command again, freezing the screen and putting Black Dahlia in an animation where she's about to press a button to detonate the bomb. To make her actually detonate it, finishing the super, you yourself have to press/release a button on the controller during the screen freeze. but if the Black Dahlia player so chooses, they can wait a long time to do so, which will start draining super meter. you can "spend" up to one extra bar of meter in this way, for no other purpose than to draw out the animation for dramatic effect. there is no gameplay benefit, it's purely to be fun, silly, or maybe a little bit toxic!
in a way, it reminds me of guilty gear Xrd's "Rakusyo!" where you give your opponent an advantage just to send a message. that's probably my favorite "taunt mechanic" (for lack of a better term) in any fighting game, because the added "cost" means you *really* only see them when emotions are running high, it's so dramatic! i wonder how much design space there could be for similar concepts in cinematic supers?
I love your channel dude !!! My fav. type of supers are the ones from the KOF series, up to XIII, as they are beautiful, exciting and don't interfere with the rhythm of the match
where have you gone!!!
😅
Pleasantly surprised at the return, I was just here reviewing your plateau video. Looking forward to seeing more!
I think the cinematic supers should have a short version, and only show the complete version when it kills the oponent.
that would definitely cut down on wasted time, but would also remove nerve-wracking "will it kill?" moments, where the length of the cinematic serves to create huge tension. maybe a worthy trade, maybe not.
@@lullaboid Lativa's SSBA is long, but at least entertaining throughout it's 2nd half of the animation (the countdown part).
GBFV in general has most supers not play full animation if the initial hit connected from too far away (it also didn't deal full damage that way).
Overall, DBFZ Dramatic Finish cinematics might actually be the best of both worlds (now if only regular supers were properly short and Dramatic Finishes a bit easier to land, that'd be perfect).
My fighting game prayers have been answered. Thank you for the return
teching and possible reasons to not air tech is the most common way to keep both players involved during most combo heavy anime games, that wasn't mentioned here.
Good to see you back.
Great 1st episode to come back on
Valentine immediately comes to mind with the "Tell me where it hurts." And being able to skip the animation's long jump scare sequence to get back to the action. We should have more of this, where the player gets to CHOOSE whether the super plays a longer or shorter version for the sake of pacing.
If we can skip intros, and in some cases outros, why can't we skip supers? Both are used as a means of giving the player downtime during a match, its just that one starts before the match, one is during, and one is after its over.
I love Valentine level 3. I love never ever ever ever skipping it.
@@missingno_fgc "You monster!"
The point about how pacing is effected by familiarity is crucial. The more you play a game (or the more you play fighting games in general), the less breaks are needed and the more frustrating they become. I am not sure how games can be paced correctly, when the correct pace for the game changes with time spent with the game.
Glad you guys are BACK at it again!!!
Nice, another solid vid. Looking forward to what else you have planned.
I think Ladiva had a super with a mechanic that could help with cinematic lengths. Her super is that she pins the opponent and a referee counts down. The damage is calculated at the first hit, and if it kills the pin goes a full 3 seconds and Ladiva wins, but if it doesn't, the opponent escapes before 3.
So it would be nice if a super always does the same damage, but if it doesn't kill, the animation plays a shorter version, and only the full cinematic is for a KO.
It's back!! :D
I love these videos 👏🏾
the return of yhe king. nice thumnail. also third
As a DBFZ player from Season 1 till now. I used to really hate Bardock and GT's lvl3. Nowadays because of how DBFZ has evolved you really will appreciate the 300 timer and the lvl3 okis alot more on high level, this is because its a really good break on neutral and gives you time to think and adapt how you got hit, and make a gameplan before the LVL3 oki starts.
Its an acquired taste but i really hope they dont change the pacing for DBFZ2, once youre used to high level DBFZ its really something you really dont want changed.
This is a huge reason why I can never get into new fighting games I just keep going back to old games. The action is much better paced for my taste.
Yo, its finally back!
More videos like this!! I hope you guys are still planning on posting more analysis videos
Ohhh yesss let's rock
Samurai showdown VSP have fatality that very difficult to pull off but very stratifying so they don’t over stay their welcome. I think game that have unique "breaks" would be the Touhu fighting games with "declare" Mechanic. There is also is Golden fantasia Umineko "meta rebuttal" mechanic, though that appear frequently I think drags the pace down too. Project justice partner system is also another one im not a fan of. Shout out to Pokken with its phase shift, assist, and synergy mode for good pacing imo.
I usually hate long supers, but Ryougi's is so hype that you wouldn't skip it if you could.
I've got a suggestion for the next episode: Are invincibility move truly "braindead" and cheap or are people just blowing it out of proportion?
Safe jumps are a thing.
The player executing the super should decide whether to go with the full animation or just a 5 second version of it. So you just hold a button if you want to enter the cinematic - and if you've been playing the game for months - it's very unlikely you'll hold it.
Another way is to give the supers a 20% chance of going into full animation...maybe even less.
They back
Yoooooooo let's go!!
Return of the GOATS
Hey friend, one day I saw you playing a turn base RPG in live, I thought I wrote down the name, but I can't find it. If it doesn't bother you, which games of this type did you play live?
The only turn based RPGs I've streamed this year are Shin Megami Tensei 4 and Library of Ruina.
@@novriltataki thanks man 😀
EFG IS BACK??
AM I FUCKING DREAMING??
I think it's fine if players have a way to break combos even if the combos are long/infinite, Just look at KOF, it works fine. My issue with other team games like Marvel or Skullgirls is that they never reset to neutral. I can accept dying in one or two touches if I can start the next round/character at neutral, but losing a character and immediately starting the next in a bad (or in MVC2 inescapable) situation is frustrating. As much as I dislike DBFZ, It's still more pallatelable than spending the whole game on defense and losing.
Cinematic supers are cool, but the fact that they've effectively replaced normal supers isn't.
I don't care what anyone says, or if I'm in the minority. I hate long combos, long stun/crowd control duration, or anything that takes control away for more than a couple seconds in any PvP game.
If its a multiplayer game, it should become 'single-player' as infrequently as possible. I treat that as a universal requirement in PvP game design, regardless of genre.
So the only FGs of the last decade that I've truly enjoyed are games like VF5US, SamSho 2019, Blade Strangers, and Punch Planet.
I used to enjoy early Tekken 7, but the devs have made the game more offense-focused and combo oriented with each patch, pushing me away from it. And I haven't tried KoF 15 yet, but I'm told its one of the rare recent FGs that are rewarding to "Heart players" like myself. So, I may get it on a deep discount someday.
Overall, I just prefer short combos and high damage for short rounds that are dense with player interactions. Even better if it has a short round timer (like in VF) which allows defensive play to be as viable as offensive play. Heck, even the optimal choice in some scenarios.
This guy died
🧟♂
@@novriltataki come back