“No one is more dangerously insane than one who is sane all the time: he is like a steel bridge without flexibility, and the order of his life is rigid and brittle.” - Alan Watts
He had a point there. I like to think of myself as sane, yet with the things I've been through, the fact that I never lost my sanity is insanity in and of itself. That is why I like Sheogorath so much, being allowed to act insane and turn people into a sweetroll with a staff is somewhat refreshing.
It’s a matter of perspective really: To conquer is to limit someones freedom. When you love someone, for example, you could simultaneously want the best for them - most of goodness, beauty, justice and freedom in their lives… …yet somehow still want to restrict some of their choices from time to time - limit their very same freedom that you ultimately are supposed to maximize for them… Weird, isn’t it? 😂 I mean, what is the proper answer for this contradiction?
I think the other Daedra took the biggest L turning a stuck up perfectionist into the coolest, pimp suit wearing, joke telling looney boi that not only beat but embarrassed all them in wagers.
To be fair, I'd rather be embarrassed by an absolutely mad being than actually defeated by him. Sheogorath's madness probably keeps him from expanding across Oblivion whereas Jygalag probably could have taken more territory in Oblivion.
I think I'd rather just be defeated. If your defeated that's it. You lost. Go back to the drawing board and try again if you choose to. But if your embarrassed not only were you defeated but now you look like a fool. And that shit will add a psychological effect to you going forward.
“It is like trying to cut water into a shape,” but you can, you just have to freeze it first, this is what bringing his order to oblivion is, solidifying the realm with his will so that it can be cut into shape.
very valid point, considering Jyggalagg supposedly makes even his followers into blank slates, and it wouldn't be out of character at all for him to want to spread that across all of Oblivion, to bring back order-- and thus destroying it entirely.
You say he's mad because he does the same thing over and over and expects a different result, but he did get a different result. By crushing the isles time and again even Sheogorath was ready to help make it stop and now he's escaped the curse. That's not madness. That's patience and persistence.
Good point. But I don't think that was his intention. He is the daedric prince of order and was forced to watch disorder and chaos rule his realm for eras. He would have know the greymarch was pointless and chaos would rule again. And if he knew it would wear down sheogorath and the HoK would show up why didn't he prevent the curse? He isn't all knowing like he claims only hemorous mora is all knowing at least of the daedric princes
Chris Wilder hermaeus mora is not an all knowing daedra. He strives to be one, but will probably never succeed. BTW you don’t need to be all knowing in order to expect what is going to happen.
TINFOIL HAT TIME!!!! I feel like Jyggalag, Malacath, Peryite , and Maridia would team up to kick the crap out of the other Daedra. They all have a focus on maintaining order in one way or another. Jyggalag represents cosmic order, keeping everything from falling into chaos by destroying those who would bring chaos. Malacath represents social order, by upholding the oaths mortals make and delivering the curses set upon them for breaking their oaths. Peryite represents the natural order, creating diseases and releasing them to test living creatures and make new opportunities for evolution by killing off the weaker species. Meridia represents the order of life and death, destroying those who would exist in between the two states of being. The 4 walls of the Daedric House Of Order.
NurturingTalents Yes to all except Namira. Her sphere wouldn’t offend Peryite, being able to eat the dead/rotting and live through disease is actually the strategy of one of his favorite types of creatures; scavengers, like the skeever. I’d go with Sanguine as the foil to Peryite since opulence negates nature. In a world where everything has exactly what it wants, nothing changes. That would displease the Little Dragon.
NurturingTalents Although I feel like Hermeaus Mora could work as an alternate to Sheogorath. Inaccessible knowledge, no matter how plentiful, isn’t orderly. Plus it causes madness if you do manage to access it. Jyggalag would want this to be cleansed. Sheogorath is more of a wildcard anyways. He’s just as likely to screw with the other chaotic Daedra as he is to screw with any of the orderly ones.
He’s my favorite daedra by far. The fact all the Daedric princes United to curse him shows how powerful he really is. Also who hopes he returns for the next Elder Scrolls ?
Okay but what if, hear me out, we get Jyggy and Sheo BOTH at the same time and get to choose a side to fight the other off- fans of Jyggy get to kill Sheo, and fans like me who prefer that fun chaos Sheo brings would kill off Jyggy. But the person that wins stays, permanently, maybe as a friend and follower?
@@chriswilder9719 That will be Sheogorath forever, probably. I really do hope TES VI has a Sheogorath themed questline (not just one puny quest) with the same voice actor that has been doing his lines since Shivering Isles, as Wes Johnson, a comedian, somehow fits the role. That and Sheo wouldn't be the same without him. I also wonder if Charles Martinet will return as a voice actor, and if he will, will it be with his upper vocal range or his lower vocal range? After all, a man able to shift from Mario/Luigi to a dragon is, well, pretty good, even if a pitch shift was used, which I'm sure it was.
I support this. Order and perfection and logic and calculation... someone, somewhere, will try to stop this event from happening. I can calculate the hows and the whens. The what will happen next. I can take the correct steps that will steer the events the way I want them to go.
Oh, true! Just annoy the Prince of Madness enough to align his desires to Jyggalags: "Ending this nightmare". It seems even the Prince of Madness can get enough.
In the library of Jyggalag there were books calculating the actions of every creature, mortal and daedra. It would not surprise me if he foresaw all the events of the shivering isles.
The library is basically the type of source like ChatGPT on steroids. Whichever scientific question you might have, it would probably supply you with a much more precise answer than anything we might know here… Just imagine the sheer power of Daedric inputs that had beed collected for age after age… How old is internet itself? …yeah, the godly Daedric source beats that.
I have as alternative theory: As Jiggalag have only one known surviving suppoter that is not a part of his true daedric entities - the prisoner that helps us to create the new staff of madness, this man says that according to his calculations Champion should not succeed, yet, they do So, I suppose, that Jiggalag was so keen on his return, that he essentially forgot what made him who he is, he was blinded by the desire to rule again and made a mistake in his calculations But, as Champion defeats him, he realizes his mistake, which in turn makes him realize what he has done, thus breaking the curse of maddnes and returning to his original form for good, stopping attempts to conqure Shivering Isles and returning to his calculations
I can imagine his realm is like a minecraft world. It's maybe beautiful at the first look but soon you can see that everything looks the same. The earth has a always the same braun tone. The wind always blows from the east, All stones have the same size and form. Even the butterflies fly parareal to each other. The branches of the three have a perfect right angle to the stem.
I would too. which just hurts to say he's on the same situation merunes dagon is in such as , maybe not seeing them for millennia, which sucks. (not exactly the same situation , but it'd be stupid for him to show himself while he's so weak and can be killed much easier I assume , which would then put him directly in the same situation as merunes dagon)
Yay, order is gone and now i am the prince of madness! Tra la la le loop tee doo! Ppprrrrbbbrrrtttt eeeeeeeee weeeeeoooooooweeeeoooo aaaaaaahhhh ahhh ahhh AAAAAAAHHHH HA hahah hahhahaha ahahahah
It’s funny, whenever I think of Jyggalag’s realm I don’t imagine it to be boring. There’s a lot of interesting shapes and things you can do with angles and straight lines. Pyramids, Ziggurats, obelisks, diamonds, etc. It would be fun to see some sort of massively complex realm where everything is in order.
I’d say because there is so little we know about him vs the other daedric princes. And what we do know is he was powerful enough to scare them shitless. That in my book is def something to be a little freaked out about.
I think you missed the obvious. He knew his curse was coming and thus put in motion the very chain of events to lift it before it ever fell on him. His curse would always be lifted...and no matter how many times he may be “vanquished” by the other Daedra, he will always rise again as he alone can see how these actions would pan out. There is a duality that you are missing...order comes from chaos...chaos comes from order. Neither can exist without the other.
I'm sad there wasn't a dialogue option to immediately call him that, and it should've resulted in instant death with a little cutscene of him actually jumping rope with your entrails.
Some daedra he was... Not possessing an artifact for a champion to use. No instead he blessed the hero with becoming me, myself and I as well as we and us
Can't really have an artifact when he used to spend all of his time trapped in a form of pure chaos only being free to try to take back his realm only to repeat the process multiple times
That is a perfect example of the two of them. Both Batman and the Joker are completely insane, but one is able to hide his insanity behind a mask of calm, and peace. While the other wears his insanity on his face and clothes.
I'm so happy you did an episode of my favorite Daedric Prince, FudgeMuppet! :D I agree that Jyggalag is at least as padomaic as he is anuic, if not more so; the continual march of order is very much an act of change and not the same as the "order" of stasis. That being said, I'm not convinced Jyggalag's quest for rational order is more futile than the ambitions of other Daedra. Molag Bal wants to enslave and dominate everything, but that goal will probably always elude his grasp. Hermaeus Mora wants to catalogue all knowledge, but there will always be more to learn. Peryite wants to preserve natural order, but external forces are always throwing eco-systems off-balance. Far from suffering from Quixotic delusion, Jyggalag is just following his particular idealistic nature. Even as a strict determinist, Jyggalag felt fulfilled as long as he was being who he was born to be, but after he was cursed by other Princes, Jyggalag became trapped in a cycle from which his deductive formulae predicted no escape, and he believed himself doomed. By defeating him, Sheogorath's champion demonstrated to Jyggalag that there were in fact things in existence he had not accounted for; the key qualifier that Jyggalag conveys to the champion in his parting speech, the aspect of mind that frees him from his curse, is 'uncertain.' For the first time in eras, Jyggalag acknowledges possibilities yet unknown to him, forces and formulae he does not know, and he will be all the more dangerous because he has a new tool in his arsenal now: hope.
Holy shit my guy/gal that's one of the best written comments I've seen in awhile. I'm definitely going with this lore for my Jygallag worshipper character with the Wintersun Skyrim mod.
@@dutchvanderlinde248 Thank you! ^_^ It also occurs to me that the reason that Jyggalag was probably able to be cursed in the first place is Lorkhan's death leaving an unfilled role amongst the Princes. That would explain how Sheogorath was supposedly born from the "Sithis-shaped hole in the world": because Lorkhan had been filling that "hole", and without Lorkhan around the elements of his sphere were not being expressed, necessitating a successor. The other Princes were then able to force Jyggalag to accommodate both his sphere and Lorkhan's sphere, causing him to become Sheogorath and resulting in the highly unstable union of his two selves, taking on the mantle of Jyggalag again during periods of Greymarch only to eventually succumb to his Sheogorath persona again, over and over. This would explain how Jyggalag became freed too: by learning hope in uncertainty from Lorkhan's children (specifically the Hero of Kvatch), Jyggalag was able to overcome his hopelessness and free himself from the curse of madness, thus disentangling himself from Sheogorath and restoring balance to Oblivion; following their separation Sheogorath is able to fulfill aspects of Lorkhan's role alongside Talos, and Jyggalag becomes a wiser version of himself, free to take up his sphere of logic again full-time. Or that's how I imagine it happened! xD
what if the elder scrolls are remnants of jyggalag's great library? i mean everything that has could have or should have been until the point it actually occurs inability to protocol dragon breaks drives mortals mad and/or blind
@@scratch2086 no sithis isn't a Daedra, he came from the void, and based on what dark brotherhood scholars say, he came before everything else, since chaos came before everything else... Dagon was behind the invasion of mundos, but he was not the centerpiece by a long shot... throughout the game, we go through many oblivion gates into many different realms of oblivion, and many of them do not belong to dagon at all !!! Dagon was the main cause of the invasion, but not the main antagonist, the entirety of oblivion and Daedric princes were the main antagonist, for it was an invasion of Daedra, not an invasion of Dagon !
I believe that Jyggalag is planning something big. He is the Prince of Order and if someone is going to establish order they have to tear down the chaos and build from the foundation upward. So I think he is laying the foundation to take over all of oblivion. This is my theory and my hope.
I think Apocrypha is greater then Jiggy's book store. Jiggy only has the histories and knowledge of a logical outcome. Where as Apocrypha has the outcome of not only the logical view but the chaotic and absurd reasoning. If a book about Jon morning routine was written in Jiggy's library it would have him get up brush his teeth, shower and have break fast... In apocrypha the same book would be written an infinite number of times each one having a different order in Jon's mirning routine
@@andrewthemaroon8608 Well Herma-Mora is enough of an over-arching terror across all reality to that he would have capitalised on the fall of Jyggalag, and thus taken all of his knowledge.
@@TOUGHEYES exactly, making his library even greater. All of the Deadric Princes had something to gain cursing and ruining Jiggy-kun. I never argued that Apocrypha was less then Jiggy's library. So we are basically saying the same thing just in different ways
In all fairness though, I can see Jyggalag's advances towards Order in the midst of chaos being something that he's going to calculate, and deliberately plan in order to pull away from the power bases of the other Daedra.
Well, the libary of Apocrypha seems dysfunctional and patched together from the unused ideas of the creation of Nirn. My guess is that Jyggalag´s libary is perfection realised, rows of books on perfect wooden shelves, neatly categorised in perfect alphabetical order. That´s why Sheogorath burned it all to ash, except for Dyus of Mytheria. As the daedric prince of madness, he couldn´t stand the perfection and order of Jyggalag´s libary. After all, madness isn´t predictable or sane, so it was burned, so that none would gaze upon the reality of the universe (the elder scrolls universe that is).
Or he could just be recovering. He did after all have to leave his realm behind after the curse was broken and the realms are said to be a substantial part of a Prince's power after all.
The daedric princes got together and decided to get the biggest threat against them and give him creative problem solving. Which made him figure out how to possibly end the cycle. Which ended in them now having to deal with sheogorath AND jyggalag later on. Nice move, daedric princes.
The mistake with the curse of the Greymarch that the other Princes had, was in not predicting that Sheogorath would desire for the cycle to stop as well. You say that insanity was doing the same thing over and over again, while expecting the same result. I disagree in this case based upon what you said. You also mentioned that Jyggalag/Sheogorath are effectively voices/personalities in the minds of each other. Maybe not very strong, but enough of a voice all the same that they can influence each other. Perhaps J inside of S's head (referring to them as J and S so I don't have to keep typing their names) was why Dyus was able to survive, J telling S that he might be useful in breaking the cycle one day. On the other, when J was in S's head as well, he told him that having some order, having some stability to a realm of anarchy and chaos was not wrong (like having guards, a law system, and even nobility), while in turn, now that the cycle is broken, S can tell J that some chaos is acceptable. As you said, two sides of a coin, to help balance each other out. Perhaps if J does make a new realm, I could imagine it would be a lot better off than either of the old realms. It would be more even, a better mix of the two, a realm of Harmony, rather than Order or Madness.
He hasn't exacted vengeance because he's a shadow of his former power. By abdicating his former realm to the new Sheogorath much of his strength would be sapped. Taking on Princes who've been growing in power for millennia would be illogical in the extreme.
@@the_dropbear4392 Incorrect on so many levels. Sanguine has thousands of pocket realms. These are all partitioned-off parts of his greater realm. A Prince's realm is, quite literally, a part of them. It's as much a part of their being as any physical representation they might bring to bear and represents a tremendous part of their overall power. When Umbra separated from Clavicus Vile it cost him a portion (though a negligible one) of his power, as he'd lost a portion of his realm and his creation. This is all some basic-ass Elder Scrolls lore, too. Giving up the Shivering Isles, as it was still HIS realm, would've caused Jyggalag to lose a tremendous amount of his power and it would take him a long time to recuperate to anything near his former strength.
@@AnArtInEveryLabor Clavicus lost his power, not because of the small chunk of his realm (it was literally a city from a realm which is infinite in size and mass) but because he infused his power in the sword. Each princes realm including each of sanguines is infinite
They are their realms, that was outright stated in the Shivering DLC. Their size is irrelevant, cut off from it Jyggalag would be massively depowered. He'd have to carve out a new realm for himself and consolidate power for a while.
I think the real Madness came that both occupied the same realm, they couldn't feel comfortable to live in. Even sheogorath got tired and wished for a little stability in his realm. Honestly they would complement each other nicely if left with their own realm. Jiggalath the most productive but certainly most predictive prince and sheogorath, the probably least productive but also least predictive prince. Both a nightmare for the other princes. If they could work together, Boy, productivity and a little Chaos to lead to yet unknown realms of thought? Thats creativity in its Perfection!
Perhaps even 18. After stealing Clavicus Vile's power, Umbra is practically a Daedric Prince at this point. And of course, if the Champion of Cyrodiil was able to become a new Daedric Prince (since they became a Sheogorath separate from Jyggalag), who is to say others can't also become Daedric Princes if granted enough power by an existing prince as the Champion of Cyrodiil was? The Ideal Masters are also a collective Daedric Prince if you stretch the definition a little bit. They do rule over a plane of Oblivion after all.
@@spaceangelmewtwo9074 The champion of Cyrodiil was only Sheogorath for a short period. Sheogorath states he is just going on vacation while the champion takes his place.
@@RXTRUX1 fudgemuppet can make what seems like boring lore into something interesting. They did a video on Arkay a little while back and it was actually really interesting
No, for many reasons, least of all A. The goals of the thalmor are clear cut B. Ol' jigs has absolutely no place amongst the elves and they don't worship the aedra as the imperials do, and daedra worship is what caused the Chimer to flee from the summer set isles
@@hammadgill1333 All to takes, is one agent in the right place to cause havoc. But hey, that's just a theory, a Inner monologue: "Shut the fuck up Travis!" Ahem, yeah it's just a theory.
@@hammadgill1333 doesn't he like the Thalmor? Because, well, I hate them. Their like a mix between Nazis and more magic Nazis. I couldn't come up with something clever. I know the whole erasing Mundus and returning to nothing and or immortality like the whiny nihilistic narcissistic bitches that they are. Mockery: Waw! Life is too hard a test! Waaaaa!
They tried to humiliate him by turning him into a mad man but they only proved that he was so powerful that they could only curse him with combined power, and sheo is still very powerful and clever.
I think potentially he's biding his time. If the other princes changed his form once, they may try do it again. If he wants to fight for order. He'd have to be ready for a response. Maybe he's waiting for the perfect opportune moment.
Would probably have to do with the one of the princes locating an artifact and the others wanting said artifact. Which would be the best time for him to make his move. When the other princes are in complete chaos attacking each other.
It held events not knowledge, it held what might happen and what did or could've happened, while hermues more's realm holds all knowledge except for what could've happened and what might happen
My prediction is jygilag will return when the last tower has fallen due to the aldmeri dominion and he will join the "good" deidric princes temporarily to fight the others and you as the "chosen one" as a representation of the aedra will be the focus point of dispute between the 2 otherwise the evil deadra will win and due to there need for domination/revolution/or whatever they have in store will try to expand afterword into oblivion and jygilag will know he's no longer safe even if hes passive because he is a threat therefore deduce that this is the time to act accordingly and make you his champion. I assume hermors mora is also antipipating this and is probably the reason he likes to claim dragonborns as his champions and keeping him in his realm and a pirce in the great chess game of mundus soon to come.
I don't think our characters will be dragonborns in the next game, from what I understand, the events in Skyrim involve the last dragonborn, no more after that one.
My mind is blown! I never made the connection that Jyggalag's entire purpose was a contradiction in itself. There's no doubt he would be a mad god. Very well done Drew!
This take is perfect! I thought I knew where you were headed when I saw the title posted, and so you did. A belligerent fixation on orderliness that persists even in opposition to the fundamentally chaotic aspects of reality itself is DEFINITELY a domain of madness. I'd even go so far as to say that -to look at it from any perspective other than Jygalag's obsessive one - it's pretty clear that the other Daedra likely did not 'curse' him at all. In his fever to turn all of himself and his realm into a perfectly crystalized, static archive that is 'ever expanding'. All another Daedra would have to do is to summon the strength to protect the boundaries of their realm of oblivion(and the inherent volatility within it that allows for creative events to occur), and upon hitting enough resistance Jygalag would collapse into himself. Instead of an outward focused avatar of a cognitive madness(obsessive compulsion), he is 'cursed' to spend time embodying the emotional forms of madness(mania and depression). These volatile emotional realms are EXTREMELY volatile, very creative, things are always happening. Sheogorath(the inner fundamental emotionally-centered core of the daedric prince) loves it like this, but the repressed Jygalag is miserable and the pressure mounts until he eventually bursts out and destroys the play-world built by his emotional body while he was dissociated and subsumed. The "era" they talk about is however long it takes for this to happen( ala Mob Psycho 100, as it were).
What the hero of Cyrodill does in the Shivering Isles DLC is, as far as I can tell, one of the most interesting and metaphysical important tasks undertaken in an Elder Scrolls DLC. Fundamentally, what you are doing is Mantling a *very specific part* of a Daedric Prince: the emotional body which calls itself Sheogorath. By Mantling one part only of a whole but fractured Prince, the hero is allowing the dissociate plural identities to exist in a stable form *at the same time*. You are helping the Prince of Madness carry his own madness, and the two(?) of you are in a unique position to experience the Aurbis in an entirely new way and learn things not even imagined by the Et'Arda. You are stabilizing the emotional realms of Mania and Dementia(depression), and so now your Mantled Daedra - in the form of the obsessive compulsive peak of his madness trinity - is freed from his compulsion to purge and destroy his emotional world and instead able to go on a walkabout Oblivion to finally get a little space from himself. Perhaps he will learn a whole new Way of Walking out there. Perhaps, as Lorkhan did, walk all the way out to the edge of everything (tidying up as he goes but never staying long enough in one place to do real damage), turn around and look toward the Tower that is both a hub and a spoke... and understand it in an entirely new way yet.
I know some people get salty, smug, or whathaveyou about having a Real Mad Person commenting on relevant videos, but I am really enjoying your metaphysics videos and figure it's not hurting anyone.
@@IamaDinosaur i already have that mod, i just was wanting the armor on that statue to be remade into whereable armor in a mod, well at least i had a nice chat with someone whos making a- oh where are my mannors, dont want to spoil it
@@kompav5621 It's likely from the Wintersun:: Faiths of Skyrim mod. It adds bonuses for worshipping gods and being devoted. You can pick from some divines and daedra but Jyggalag is available through the statue of the female version of Jyggalag's armor
I like to think that Jyggalag is on a self discover journey, wandering the voids of Oblivion, pondering his existence, and will return after finding illumination; after then, the daedra better start packing because they will be no more. I also think that's the main reason Jyggalag never brought the grey march on the other daedra (aside from the Vigilant mod, seriously, go play it), since daedra play such an important part in the lore, it would be hard to imagine TES without them.
Speaking of the Gods: I’ve always found it interesting, the connections between the Statues of Talos and Boethiah. I mean, I know it’s not written, and there’s all these other theories about who/what the snake that Talos stands over is supposed to be. But my theory on it, is that it’s Talos standing up to deceit and chaos. Destroying the idea of rebellion and anarchy.
It’s almost as if the other Daedra didn’t so much curse Jyggalag as they did force him to stare into a mirror for all eternity, pondering himself, his goals, and his own inborn conflictions.
Becoming Sheogorath im Oblivion was just the best plot ever, I just want a game now where you play as Sheogarath doing stupid and funny sht with haskill
Jyggalag and Sheogorath represent the two forms of madness and consciousness, lucid grasping coherency and rambling mindless chaos. Then that explains how the other princes might have overcome him, they may have simply pushed him from one state of consciousness to the other and let his own power do the rest.
Dear @fudgemuppet, You have single handedly ridden me of my melatonin addiction. I just watch your elder scrolls content on shuffle and your voice rocks me to sleep every night Hope you enjoy my TH-cam red money
Jyggalag not seeking knowledge, he already knows everything of past and future, as of Herma Mora is just seeking knowledge just for sake of it. So if u want connect them better to say thay Herma Mora has infinite interest of Jyggalag.
I think Jyggalag is really the Prince of Harmonious Creation & Ordering. The need to order the world around us, such as how societies evolve in their political form to meet certain needs and maintain a sense of order. Almost like he represents the pathological need to constantly improve that we have as humans - and in the Elder Scrolls, Sheogorath's interactions with Vivec, in Battlespire and Daggerfall all point towards this need to order the world and create something new (Sheogorath was this creative aspect minus the capability for order). So, in a way, Sheogorath represents the crushed spirit of this order-striving force that has become that same pathology but now turned utterly chaotic by the forces of Oblivion (the princes are often referred to as forces).
Counter point: maybe he is the god of order and being trapped in the psyche of Sheogorath has robbed him( or gifted him) of his perfect reasoning and omniscience. He also lost his realm and most of his power during the last grey march, it could be jyggalag now lacks the powers necessary to force order on aetherius, oblivian, and mundus.
Maybe jyggalag has broken free of the godhead through being the prince of order and knowing and planning everything since he’s the only prince that knows his purpose
What I think is (maybe) Hermaeus Mora is a form of Jyggalag or has taken some of his power as he, has knowledge of what has happened, what is happening, and what is yet to happen. Or maybe Hermy had betrayed the other princes without them knowing and is feeding off of the power and knowledge of Jyggalag, hence why Hermaeus is so powerful. This allowing Miraak being able to return to Solstheim. Hermaeus was also able to enter Skyrim, when he played the Ogham Infinium. Just a theory.😊
The reason why he didn’t stop the curse is because it simply wasn’t the logical solution because true order is a pattern they both need each other to exist and he knows that deadra can achieve chim so they are forever stuck in the plain the reason why he left his sword and because he simply understood everything he could ever do would be pointless he is after all just a dream and explains why the immortal told the hok he could never achieve ascendce because he would mantle the mad god preventing him from ever achieving chim
the daedric prince jyggalag and the daedric prince sheogorath are like the fish tank(fishey sticks?) experiment. where u have a fish tank filled with water and glitter.... the glitter settles to the bottom. perfect order... but when you stir the tank, chaos follows. but if you look closely, there is order to the chaos. currents form where there were none. patterns begin to emerge. perfect order and perfect chaos can not exist. they can only balance each other. as evil cannot exist without good. two sides of the same coin.
I believe you’re correct. Jyggalag has to be the god of madness, it’s the only thing that could make sense. A commonly quote for madness is this; ‘The definition of madness is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.’ And this describes the Graymarch perfectly. He took over the Shiverinh Isles time and time again, expecting it to be different.
Top 3 Daedra that weren't invited to the party 1. Jyggalag - DON'T TOUCH MY MOM'S PORCELAIN kid 2. Peryite - boring disgusting boi 3. Malacath - what a loser lmao
Just realized something about jyggalag what made him so powerful and so feared by the other princes he is the only prince who’s sphere doesn’t require free will. Every deadric prince requires a aspect of free will from their followers and even their dremora servants but jyggalag’s sphere of logic and order is so powerful it transforms the environment and people completely just look at the grey march with. When those give themselves to jyggalag they are stripped of their individuality and freewill nothing but pieces on a board to be moved at his will alone. That’s why the other princes allied against jyggalag because left unhindered cold reasoned unrestrained order would consume all of oblivion.
Perhaps Jyggalag got an amnesia effect after being Sheogorath. Like the idea of breaking into your own house to test the security, Sheogorath being Jyggalag meant he could specifically counter his OWN plans, methods, and new ideas then when he is forced to Grey March, he has no memory of what he did and is driven crazy as it seems his chaotic opponent seems to know exactly what he is thinking, hence why when the Hero of Kvatch gets there, its mostly Shivering Isles despite Jyggalag having a Grey March, showing how possibly each Grey March he re conquered less land as its easier to destroy than to build, to be chaos than to control. He outsmarted himself playing as his own opponent.
I'd like to say two things... Say this library existed... Sounds very familiar to a particular realm some dragonborn are familiar with... AND if he does come back... what happens the moment he takes back the realm of madness? I mean it is still in Oblivion after all... In a way he's still cursed isn't he?
Maybe...unless he takes out one of the other princes first, and takes their realm. It seems the curse is not only bound to him, but his realm as well. Maybe if he leaves the shivering isles be until he crushes the other Princes, he'd be all right, you know?
You know, this really does make sense when you put it like that. I've started playing Frostpunk lately and let me tell you trying to build a prospering city, with or without resorting to ways to control the population, is downright maddening!!
Download Wintersun mod. It adds many shrines and blessings of many TES deities like the Elven gods(Magnus,Phynaster,Trinimac,Syrabane etc),Sithis,Shor,Ebonarm,Mannimarco and The Hist,The Allmaker etc... Jyggalag is also included.
Jyggalag and Sheogorath is the Daedric version of having a messy work space but still knowing exactly where everything is.
Mood
And God help anyone who "tidies" it up!
Organized chaos
@@EmmaSpAce111 My thoughts (and room) exactly!
My life put into words
“No one is more dangerously insane than one who is sane all the time: he is like a steel bridge without flexibility, and the order of his life is rigid and brittle.” - Alan Watts
Ah another Alan Watts fan I see. Well met, friend
Was listening to some Alan just before coming to this. Funny, sweet coincidences.
Wow, I watch Alan Watts and I never knew he said that, good to hear more of his words.
He had a point there. I like to think of myself as sane, yet with the things I've been through, the fact that I never lost my sanity is insanity in and of itself. That is why I like Sheogorath so much, being allowed to act insane and turn people into a sweetroll with a staff is somewhat refreshing.
I too have learned of the 36 lessons of Alan.
"Kneel before the might of Jyggalag!"
“Do you mind? I'm busy doing the Fish Stick. It's a very delicate state of mind!"
Jae Caesar I just thought about this! The reason why Sheogorath references the Fishstick meme is because he was a player at one point.
Jose C CHEESE! Cheese for everyone!
*Proceds to throw the city of Vivec at him*
Ah you know me... You just don't know it...
@@BulletTheEnforcer CHEESE FOR EVERYONE!!!
"A curse to humiliate Jyggalag" and as Sheogorath went on to troll the other princes
Trolling < Conquering
It’s a matter of perspective really:
To conquer is to limit someones freedom. When you love someone, for example, you could simultaneously want the best for them - most of goodness, beauty, justice and freedom in their lives…
…yet somehow still want to restrict some of their choices from time to time - limit their very same freedom that you ultimately are supposed to maximize for them…
Weird, isn’t it? 😂
I mean, what is the proper answer for this contradiction?
I think the other Daedra took the biggest L turning a stuck up perfectionist into the coolest, pimp suit wearing, joke telling looney boi that not only beat but embarrassed all them in wagers.
Robby Twitty hircines defeat to sheo is always hilarious
@@trollloool1307 True dat
To be fair, I'd rather be embarrassed by an absolutely mad being than actually defeated by him. Sheogorath's madness probably keeps him from expanding across Oblivion whereas Jygalag probably could have taken more territory in Oblivion.
I think I'd rather just be defeated. If your defeated that's it. You lost. Go back to the drawing board and try again if you choose to. But if your embarrassed not only were you defeated but now you look like a fool. And that shit will add a psychological effect to you going forward.
@@MailmanAssassin Yeah, just look at what happened to Trinimac.
“It is like trying to cut water into a shape,” but you can, you just have to freeze it first, this is what bringing his order to oblivion is, solidifying the realm with his will so that it can be cut into shape.
very valid point, considering Jyggalagg supposedly makes even his followers into blank slates, and it wouldn't be out of character at all for him to want to spread that across all of Oblivion, to bring back order-- and thus destroying it entirely.
You can cut ice but not water. Bringing order to oblivion makes it not oblivion
@@miceatah9359 Ice is made of water but it’s not water
He’d have to freeze Oblivion first, make a block of ice next to the sun
@@striker8961 trying to freeze oblivion would be trying to freeze hell itself without telling any of its inhabitants.
You say he's mad because he does the same thing over and over and expects a different result, but he did get a different result. By crushing the isles time and again even Sheogorath was ready to help make it stop and now he's escaped the curse. That's not madness. That's patience and persistence.
Good point
August Varney that was exactly what I thought
I think he just wanted to force a far cry 3 reference in.
Good point. But I don't think that was his intention. He is the daedric prince of order and was forced to watch disorder and chaos rule his realm for eras. He would have know the greymarch was pointless and chaos would rule again. And if he knew it would wear down sheogorath and the HoK would show up why didn't he prevent the curse? He isn't all knowing like he claims only hemorous mora is all knowing at least of the daedric princes
Chris Wilder hermaeus mora is not an all knowing daedra. He strives to be one, but will probably never succeed. BTW you don’t need to be all knowing in order to expect what is going to happen.
TINFOIL HAT TIME!!!!
I feel like Jyggalag, Malacath, Peryite , and Maridia would team up to kick the crap out of the other Daedra. They all have a focus on maintaining order in one way or another. Jyggalag represents cosmic order, keeping everything from falling into chaos by destroying those who would bring chaos. Malacath represents social order, by upholding the oaths mortals make and delivering the curses set upon them for breaking their oaths. Peryite represents the natural order, creating diseases and releasing them to test living creatures and make new opportunities for evolution by killing off the weaker species. Meridia represents the order of life and death, destroying those who would exist in between the two states of being.
The 4 walls of the Daedric House Of Order.
Love this! I'd totally join up with those 4.
NurturingTalents Yes to all except Namira. Her sphere wouldn’t offend Peryite, being able to eat the dead/rotting and live through disease is actually the strategy of one of his favorite types of creatures; scavengers, like the skeever.
I’d go with Sanguine as the foil to Peryite since opulence negates nature. In a world where everything has exactly what it wants, nothing changes. That would displease the Little Dragon.
NurturingTalents Although I feel like Hermeaus Mora could work as an alternate to Sheogorath. Inaccessible knowledge, no matter how plentiful, isn’t orderly. Plus it causes madness if you do manage to access it. Jyggalag would want this to be cleansed. Sheogorath is more of a wildcard anyways. He’s just as likely to screw with the other chaotic Daedra as he is to screw with any of the orderly ones.
Jyggalag doesn't need help, he's more powerful than all the other Daedric Gods and he was envied by others due to his power.
That would be great!
It could be a war for power like in ESO, but instead of fighting for the ruby throne they'd be fighting for the fate of creation
The problem with Jyggalag is he never does the fishstick, it really does help the mind.
And he refuses to even talk to Stanley 😐
Ah an astute observation... Time for CHEESE!!!
@@sheogoraththedaedricprince9675 No, no cheese. You can still have a party without cheese!
@@sheogoraththedaedricprince9675 i've been to new sheo twice and have yet to see a single strawberry tart 😕
@@AdamaSanguine Ah the talking grapefruit from Passwall! You know... he doesn't write...
He’s my favorite daedra by far. The fact all the Daedric princes United to curse him shows how powerful he really is. Also who hopes he returns for the next Elder Scrolls ?
I low-key actually agree with nazeem I must be in sheogorath's Glory
Okay but what if, hear me out, we get Jyggy and Sheo BOTH at the same time and get to choose a side to fight the other off- fans of Jyggy get to kill Sheo, and fans like me who prefer that fun chaos Sheo brings would kill off Jyggy. But the person that wins stays, permanently, maybe as a friend and follower?
I hope that Jyggalag plays a similar role in ES6 as Sheogorath in Oblivion and Hermaeus Mora in Skyrim.
The next elderscrolls?
Psh
F*ck you, Nazeem, you've been modded as killable in the last 4 of my play-thrus.
Jyggalag got his revenge through Sheogorath by making bets and playing games with the other Deadric lords.
Colorful birds causing beasts to tear themselves apart... Oooh winning a bet by doing nothing at all... Good times indeed.
I love sheogorath. He has embarrassed every daedric prince and threw the ultimate insult at them by allowing a mortal to become the next sheogorath
Yup i love their lore so much
@@chriswilder9719 That will be Sheogorath forever, probably. I really do hope TES VI has a Sheogorath themed questline (not just one puny quest) with the same voice actor that has been doing his lines since Shivering Isles, as Wes Johnson, a comedian, somehow fits the role. That and Sheo wouldn't be the same without him. I also wonder if Charles Martinet will return as a voice actor, and if he will, will it be with his upper vocal range or his lower vocal range? After all, a man able to shift from Mario/Luigi to a dragon is, well, pretty good, even if a pitch shift was used, which I'm sure it was.
*Sheogorath somehow manages to face off with a daedric prince*
Sheogorath : *wins through bamboozling*
Daedric gods: am I a joke to you?
Theory: Jyggylag was well aware that if he repeated the Greymarch he would eventually be freed by the Champion of Cyrodiil
I support this. Order and perfection and logic and calculation... someone, somewhere, will try to stop this event from happening. I can calculate the hows and the whens. The what will happen next. I can take the correct steps that will steer the events the way I want them to go.
Oh, true! Just annoy the Prince of Madness enough to align his desires to Jyggalags: "Ending this nightmare". It seems even the Prince of Madness can get enough.
In the library of Jyggalag there were books calculating the actions of every creature, mortal and daedra. It would not surprise me if he foresaw all the events of the shivering isles.
The library is basically the type of source like ChatGPT on steroids.
Whichever scientific question you might have, it would probably supply you with a much more precise answer than anything we might know here…
Just imagine the sheer power of Daedric inputs that had beed collected for age after age…
How old is internet itself?
…yeah, the godly Daedric source beats that.
I have as alternative theory:
As Jiggalag have only one known surviving suppoter that is not a part of his true daedric entities - the prisoner that helps us to create the new staff of madness, this man says that according to his calculations Champion should not succeed, yet, they do
So, I suppose, that Jiggalag was so keen on his return, that he essentially forgot what made him who he is, he was blinded by the desire to rule again and made a mistake in his calculations
But, as Champion defeats him, he realizes his mistake, which in turn makes him realize what he has done, thus breaking the curse of maddnes and returning to his original form for good, stopping attempts to conqure Shivering Isles and returning to his calculations
Would love to see Jyggalag return. Maybe even visit his relm. Or meet a cult of his followers.
I can imagine his realm is like a minecraft world. It's maybe beautiful at the first look but soon you can see that everything looks the same. The earth has a always the same braun tone. The wind always blows from the east, All stones have the same size and form. Even the butterflies fly parareal to each other. The branches of the three have a perfect
right angle to the stem.
I would too.
which just hurts to say he's on the same situation merunes dagon is in such as , maybe not seeing them for millennia, which sucks.
(not exactly the same situation , but it'd be stupid for him to show himself while he's so weak and can be killed much easier I assume , which would then put him directly in the same situation as merunes dagon)
i mean,he doesn't have a realm
everyone who played oblivion knows this,but ok
Weird how the only trace of his existence is when you crawled into your own brain and had a nice chatty time with Sheogorath.
Just like Pelagius
Yay, order is gone and now i am the prince of madness! Tra la la le loop tee doo! Ppprrrrbbbrrrtttt eeeeeeeee weeeeeoooooooweeeeoooo aaaaaaahhhh ahhh ahhh AAAAAAAHHHH HA hahah hahhahaha ahahahah
It’s funny, whenever I think of Jyggalag’s realm I don’t imagine it to be boring. There’s a lot of interesting shapes and things you can do with angles and straight lines. Pyramids, Ziggurats, obelisks, diamonds, etc. It would be fun to see some sort of massively complex realm where everything is in order.
well you could go full optical illusion and it would still be order
I imagine his realm to look like a massive art deco structure, all perfect angles and precise curves in the select places they do appear.
For some reason Jiggalag is one of the daedric I find more interesting and also scary
Because people like him could exist, unfortunately. Even more so today.
uh?
@@onigames7309
Christian is saying there are many people who try to control the uncontrollable, I guess?
@@richardl1708 o like the concept but I find pretty scary facelless/ emontionless beings
I’d say because there is so little we know about him vs the other daedric princes.
And what we do know is he was powerful enough to scare them shitless.
That in my book is def something to be a little freaked out about.
I think you missed the obvious. He knew his curse was coming and thus put in motion the very chain of events to lift it before it ever fell on him.
His curse would always be lifted...and no matter how many times he may be “vanquished” by the other Daedra, he will always rise again as he alone can see how these actions would pan out.
There is a duality that you are missing...order comes from chaos...chaos comes from order. Neither can exist without the other.
"You can call me Ann Marie. But only if you're partial to being flayed alive and having an angry immortal skip rope with your entrails"
That one remark is really good.
I'm sad there wasn't a dialogue option to immediately call him that, and it should've resulted in instant death with a little cutscene of him actually jumping rope with your entrails.
@@insanegamer23899 good sir you concern me
@@D1GTL-D1L3M4 Maybe I belong in the shivering isles
@@insanegamer23899 yeah ...go...go home to your little place
Some daedra he was... Not possessing an artifact for a champion to use. No instead he blessed the hero with becoming me, myself and I as well as we and us
@Split Haven Yes indeed HA HA HA HA!!!!
Can't really have an artifact when he used to spend all of his time trapped in a form of pure chaos only being free to try to take back his realm only to repeat the process multiple times
Makes sense. Wait Sheogorath is making sense? who are you
@@gilgameshthetreasurehunter2750 sheogorath always makes sense!
And let me guess, *CHEESE!*
Jyggalag: I am freeeee!
*the other Daedric Princes sweat profusely*
Btw, Jyggalag and Sheogorath remind me of Batman and The Joker.
More like Two Face.
That is a perfect example of the two of them. Both Batman and the Joker are completely insane, but one is able to hide his insanity behind a mask of calm, and peace. While the other wears his insanity on his face and clothes.
That’s a spot on comparison.
Blockheadfun if he’s oversimplified maybe... but Joker and Batman is a better comparison honestly.
Holy heck I've never thought of that
Jyggalags artifacts could very well be the elder scrolls themselves.
That makes sense somehow
True but also hermeus mora's. Maybe they collaborated
I would not be surprised if there was some kind of connection between the two
As far as i remember hermeus mora is an elder scroll
@@simulacrumdei6462 🤨
I'm so happy you did an episode of my favorite Daedric Prince, FudgeMuppet! :D
I agree that Jyggalag is at least as padomaic as he is anuic, if not more so; the continual march of order is very much an act of change and not the same as the "order" of stasis. That being said, I'm not convinced Jyggalag's quest for rational order is more futile than the ambitions of other Daedra.
Molag Bal wants to enslave and dominate everything, but that goal will probably always elude his grasp. Hermaeus Mora wants to catalogue all knowledge, but there will always be more to learn. Peryite wants to preserve natural order, but external forces are always throwing eco-systems off-balance. Far from suffering from Quixotic delusion, Jyggalag is just following his particular idealistic nature.
Even as a strict determinist, Jyggalag felt fulfilled as long as he was being who he was born to be, but after he was cursed by other Princes, Jyggalag became trapped in a cycle from which his deductive formulae predicted no escape, and he believed himself doomed. By defeating him, Sheogorath's champion demonstrated to Jyggalag that there were in fact things in existence he had not accounted for; the key qualifier that Jyggalag conveys to the champion in his parting speech, the aspect of mind that frees him from his curse, is 'uncertain.' For the first time in eras, Jyggalag acknowledges possibilities yet unknown to him, forces and formulae he does not know, and he will be all the more dangerous because he has a new tool in his arsenal now: hope.
@Naught Guile Don't you have a wife?
Dirty old man.
@Naught Guile lol
Jyggy _lad_ be walking up to the Realms of the other Princes preaching Hope
Holy shit my guy/gal that's one of the best written comments I've seen in awhile. I'm definitely going with this lore for my Jygallag worshipper character with the Wintersun Skyrim mod.
@@dutchvanderlinde248 Thank you! ^_^
It also occurs to me that the reason that Jyggalag was probably able to be cursed in the first place is Lorkhan's death leaving an unfilled role amongst the Princes. That would explain how Sheogorath was supposedly born from the "Sithis-shaped hole in the world": because Lorkhan had been filling that "hole", and without Lorkhan around the elements of his sphere were not being expressed, necessitating a successor. The other Princes were then able to force Jyggalag to accommodate both his sphere and Lorkhan's sphere, causing him to become Sheogorath and resulting in the highly unstable union of his two selves, taking on the mantle of Jyggalag again during periods of Greymarch only to eventually succumb to his Sheogorath persona again, over and over.
This would explain how Jyggalag became freed too: by learning hope in uncertainty from Lorkhan's children (specifically the Hero of Kvatch), Jyggalag was able to overcome his hopelessness and free himself from the curse of madness, thus disentangling himself from Sheogorath and restoring balance to Oblivion; following their separation Sheogorath is able to fulfill aspects of Lorkhan's role alongside Talos, and Jyggalag becomes a wiser version of himself, free to take up his sphere of logic again full-time. Or that's how I imagine it happened! xD
what if the elder scrolls are remnants of jyggalag's great library?
i mean everything that has could have or should have been until the point it actually occurs
inability to protocol dragon breaks
drives mortals mad and/or blind
Interesting idea
In that case I think he would eventually deserve to be the centerpiece of an elder scrolls game like Dagon was.
@@scratch2086 dagon wasn't the center piece of oblivion... All the Daedra were !!!
you could say it was about Sithis as much as it was about Dagon !
@@MehrdadParthian Ok one, Dagon was clearly the centerpiece of Oblivion even if other Daedra were involved, and two, Sithis isn't even a Daedra.
@@scratch2086 no sithis isn't a Daedra, he came from the void, and based on what dark brotherhood scholars say, he came before everything else, since chaos came before everything else...
Dagon was behind the invasion of mundos, but he was not the centerpiece by a long shot... throughout the game, we go through many oblivion gates into many different realms of oblivion, and many of them do not belong to dagon at all !!!
Dagon was the main cause of the invasion, but not the main antagonist, the entirety of oblivion and Daedric princes were the main antagonist, for it was an invasion of Daedra, not an invasion of Dagon !
I believe that Jyggalag is planning something big. He is the Prince of Order and if someone is going to establish order they have to tear down the chaos and build from the foundation upward. So I think he is laying the foundation to take over all of oblivion.
This is my theory and my hope.
AN oblivion war could be interesting, work with the Daedra to stop Jyggalag once again,could be a Dlc in ESVI
Daniel Lima or work with jyggalag to try and impose order on the other princes.
@@JaelaOrdo yeap I would like to be able to choose.
We come from _Chaos_ so that is not going to happen
Honestly im half expecting Jyggalag to come back in one of these future elder scrolls (hopefully in 6 myself)
I wonder how Jyggalah's library compared to Apocrypha.
I think Apocrypha is greater then Jiggy's book store. Jiggy only has the histories and knowledge of a logical outcome. Where as Apocrypha has the outcome of not only the logical view but the chaotic and absurd reasoning.
If a book about Jon morning routine was written in Jiggy's library it would have him get up brush his teeth, shower and have break fast... In apocrypha the same book would be written an infinite number of times each one having a different order in Jon's mirning routine
@@andrewthemaroon8608 Well Herma-Mora is enough of an over-arching terror across all reality to that he would have capitalised on the fall of Jyggalag, and thus taken all of his knowledge.
@@TOUGHEYES exactly, making his library even greater. All of the Deadric Princes had something to gain cursing and ruining Jiggy-kun. I never argued that Apocrypha was less then Jiggy's library. So we are basically saying the same thing just in different ways
In all fairness though, I can see Jyggalag's advances towards Order in the midst of chaos being something that he's going to calculate, and deliberately plan in order to pull away from the power bases of the other Daedra.
Well, the libary of Apocrypha seems dysfunctional and patched together from the unused ideas of the creation of Nirn. My guess is that Jyggalag´s libary is perfection realised, rows of books on perfect wooden shelves, neatly categorised in perfect alphabetical order. That´s why Sheogorath burned it all to ash, except for Dyus of Mytheria. As the daedric prince of madness, he couldn´t stand the perfection and order of Jyggalag´s libary. After all, madness isn´t predictable or sane, so it was burned, so that none would gaze upon the reality of the universe (the elder scrolls universe that is).
In the mod 'Vigilant' he's launched an invasion force at Coldharbor, attacking Molag Bal in his weakened state. Really really great mod.
Top lad
*cries in Xbox*
HOLY S%&#! He kicked down Molag Bal's door! I bet THAT went well!
One of my favorite mods
Molag bap doesent need to be weakened to be deafeated by jyggalag
Or he could just be recovering. He did after all have to leave his realm behind after the curse was broken and the realms are said to be a substantial part of a Prince's power after all.
The daedric princes got together and decided to get the biggest threat against them and give him creative problem solving.
Which made him figure out how to possibly end the cycle. Which ended in them now having to deal with sheogorath AND jyggalag later on.
Nice move, daedric princes.
The mistake with the curse of the Greymarch that the other Princes had, was in not predicting that Sheogorath would desire for the cycle to stop as well. You say that insanity was doing the same thing over and over again, while expecting the same result. I disagree in this case based upon what you said. You also mentioned that Jyggalag/Sheogorath are effectively voices/personalities in the minds of each other. Maybe not very strong, but enough of a voice all the same that they can influence each other. Perhaps J inside of S's head (referring to them as J and S so I don't have to keep typing their names) was why Dyus was able to survive, J telling S that he might be useful in breaking the cycle one day.
On the other, when J was in S's head as well, he told him that having some order, having some stability to a realm of anarchy and chaos was not wrong (like having guards, a law system, and even nobility), while in turn, now that the cycle is broken, S can tell J that some chaos is acceptable. As you said, two sides of a coin, to help balance each other out. Perhaps if J does make a new realm, I could imagine it would be a lot better off than either of the old realms. It would be more even, a better mix of the two, a realm of Harmony, rather than Order or Madness.
He hasn't exacted vengeance because he's a shadow of his former power. By abdicating his former realm to the new Sheogorath much of his strength would be sapped. Taking on Princes who've been growing in power for millennia would be illogical in the extreme.
A princes power doesn't come f on their realm, and they can easily make a new one. Sanguine has thousands
@@the_dropbear4392 Incorrect on so many levels. Sanguine has thousands of pocket realms. These are all partitioned-off parts of his greater realm. A Prince's realm is, quite literally, a part of them. It's as much a part of their being as any physical representation they might bring to bear and represents a tremendous part of their overall power. When Umbra separated from Clavicus Vile it cost him a portion (though a negligible one) of his power, as he'd lost a portion of his realm and his creation. This is all some basic-ass Elder Scrolls lore, too. Giving up the Shivering Isles, as it was still HIS realm, would've caused Jyggalag to lose a tremendous amount of his power and it would take him a long time to recuperate to anything near his former strength.
@@AnArtInEveryLabor
Clavicus lost his power, not because of the small chunk of his realm (it was literally a city from a realm which is infinite in size and mass) but because he infused his power in the sword.
Each princes realm including each of sanguines is infinite
They are their realms, that was outright stated in the Shivering DLC. Their size is irrelevant, cut off from it Jyggalag would be massively depowered. He'd have to carve out a new realm for himself and consolidate power for a while.
August Varney “wrong on so many levels”
To a comment that’s like 2 sentences long 😂
Made me lol
I think the real Madness came that both occupied the same realm, they couldn't feel comfortable to live in. Even sheogorath got tired and wished for a little stability in his realm.
Honestly they would complement each other nicely if left with their own realm. Jiggalath the most productive but certainly most predictive prince and sheogorath, the probably least productive but also least predictive prince. Both a nightmare for the other princes.
If they could work together, Boy, productivity and a little Chaos to lead to yet unknown realms of thought? Thats creativity in its Perfection!
destroying daedric princes with facts and logic
"There's a method to my madness; and a madness to my method."
- Salvador Dali
There better be 17 daedric princes in Elder Scrolls VI.
Or more.
Indeed! As someone once said: "The realms of Oblivion are infinite".
@@aquabubbleboy8528 but they don't all have princes
Perhaps even 18. After stealing Clavicus Vile's power, Umbra is practically a Daedric Prince at this point. And of course, if the Champion of Cyrodiil was able to become a new Daedric Prince (since they became a Sheogorath separate from Jyggalag), who is to say others can't also become Daedric Princes if granted enough power by an existing prince as the Champion of Cyrodiil was? The Ideal Masters are also a collective Daedric Prince if you stretch the definition a little bit. They do rule over a plane of Oblivion after all.
@@spaceangelmewtwo9074 The champion of Cyrodiil was only Sheogorath for a short period. Sheogorath states he is just going on vacation while the champion takes his place.
I wonder if Jyggalag and Hemaeus Mora were study-buds. Like they'd bounce the possibilities of everything happening off of each other...
Speaking as someone with OCD
the adherence to perfect, meticulous order
is certainly a form of madness
What I've learned from this is that Jyggalag and Sheogorath both represent Madness, which could help explain how insanity is a spectrum of sorts.
been waiting for this one! i'm am so excited! 😃
Since you've finished the series on daedra lords maybe you could do the aedra next?
Yes please
Yes I must hear of Akatoshs lore
But they are so boring.
@@RXTRUX1 fudgemuppet can make what seems like boring lore into something interesting. They did a video on Arkay a little while back and it was actually really interesting
Julianos is my favorite
Who in their right minds uploads a elder scrolls lore video at 5:30 in the morning. I appreciate it 💯💯
It's 8:40 in Brazil
In Australia, where Fudgemuppet is, it's 10:30 in the evening, maybe 11:30 or 9:30 depending on where they are
6:30am for me >.>
Watching this at 3am. 😂
Review Things 10:30pm, what's do you mean what?
What if Jyggalag is behind the Thalmor? An eventual take down of reality entirely to bring, order. Goes all Darkseid on us.
No, for many reasons, least of all
A. The goals of the thalmor are clear cut
B. Ol' jigs has absolutely no place amongst the elves and they don't worship the aedra as the imperials do, and daedra worship is what caused the Chimer to flee from the summer set isles
You can check the imperial library for more info on what the goals of the thalmor are
@@hammadgill1333 All to takes, is one agent in the right place to cause havoc. But hey, that's just a theory, a
Inner monologue: "Shut the fuck up Travis!"
Ahem, yeah it's just a theory.
@@SuperLumianaire
I like this theory. But I think Jyggalag will never come back..
@@hammadgill1333 doesn't he like the Thalmor? Because, well, I hate them. Their like a mix between Nazis and more magic Nazis. I couldn't come up with something clever. I know the whole erasing Mundus and returning to nothing and or immortality like the whiny nihilistic narcissistic bitches that they are.
Mockery: Waw! Life is too hard a test! Waaaaa!
2:58 I always knew there was something up with cheese wheels...
Trying to find them right now lol
They tried to humiliate him by turning him into a mad man but they only proved that he was so powerful that they could only curse him with combined power, and sheo is still very powerful and clever.
Love the cheese behind the statue....nice touch..
2:00
Irish_Mage it’s the wintersun religions of Skyrim mod, sheogorath’s shrine has a cheese wheel on it, and there’s one behind jygallag’s
@@asparagoose8992
Love the symbolism...lol
I think potentially he's biding his time.
If the other princes changed his form once, they may try do it again.
If he wants to fight for order. He'd have to be ready for a response. Maybe he's waiting for the perfect opportune moment.
Would probably have to do with the one of the princes locating an artifact and the others wanting said artifact.
Which would be the best time for him to make his move. When the other princes are in complete chaos attacking each other.
FudgeMuppet pls do the Dawn and Meretic era and do one of the videos like the Dwemer vault! We would love to have that.
Thankyou for this videos!
So if jyggalags great library held all knowledge wouldnt that include everything in hermaus mauras realm of forbidden knowledge?
I wonder, what makes knowledge forbidden?
It held events not knowledge, it held what might happen and what did or could've happened, while hermues more's realm holds all knowledge except for what could've happened and what might happen
"Order is Futile" used to be "Self-Awareness Destroys"
My prediction is jygilag will return when the last tower has fallen due to the aldmeri dominion and he will join the "good" deidric princes temporarily to fight the others and you as the "chosen one" as a representation of the aedra will be the focus point of dispute between the 2 otherwise the evil deadra will win and due to there need for domination/revolution/or whatever they have in store will try to expand afterword into oblivion and jygilag will know he's no longer safe even if hes passive because he is a threat therefore deduce that this is the time to act accordingly and make you his champion. I assume hermors mora is also antipipating this and is probably the reason he likes to claim dragonborns as his champions and keeping him in his realm and a pirce in the great chess game of mundus soon to come.
I don't think our characters will be dragonborns in the next game, from what I understand, the events in Skyrim involve the last dragonborn, no more after that one.
Remember skyrim 2
My mind is blown! I never made the connection that Jyggalag's entire purpose was a contradiction in itself. There's no doubt he would be a mad god. Very well done Drew!
This take is perfect! I thought I knew where you were headed when I saw the title posted, and so you did.
A belligerent fixation on orderliness that persists even in opposition to the fundamentally chaotic aspects of reality itself is DEFINITELY a domain of madness.
I'd even go so far as to say that -to look at it from any perspective other than Jygalag's obsessive one - it's pretty clear that the other Daedra likely did not 'curse' him at all. In his fever to turn all of himself and his realm into a perfectly crystalized, static archive that is 'ever expanding'. All another Daedra would have to do is to summon the strength to protect the boundaries of their realm of oblivion(and the inherent volatility within it that allows for creative events to occur), and upon hitting enough resistance Jygalag would collapse into himself.
Instead of an outward focused avatar of a cognitive madness(obsessive compulsion), he is 'cursed' to spend time embodying the emotional forms of madness(mania and depression). These volatile emotional realms are EXTREMELY volatile, very creative, things are always happening. Sheogorath(the inner fundamental emotionally-centered core of the daedric prince) loves it like this, but the repressed Jygalag is miserable and the pressure mounts until he eventually bursts out and destroys the play-world built by his emotional body while he was dissociated and subsumed. The "era" they talk about is however long it takes for this to happen( ala Mob Psycho 100, as it were).
What the hero of Cyrodill does in the Shivering Isles DLC is, as far as I can tell, one of the most interesting and metaphysical important tasks undertaken in an Elder Scrolls DLC.
Fundamentally, what you are doing is Mantling a *very specific part* of a Daedric Prince: the emotional body which calls itself Sheogorath.
By Mantling one part only of a whole but fractured Prince, the hero is allowing the dissociate plural identities to exist in a stable form *at the same time*.
You are helping the Prince of Madness carry his own madness, and the two(?) of you are in a unique position to experience the Aurbis in an entirely new way and learn things not even imagined by the Et'Arda.
You are stabilizing the emotional realms of Mania and Dementia(depression), and so now your Mantled Daedra - in the form of the obsessive compulsive peak of his madness trinity - is freed from his compulsion to purge and destroy his emotional world and instead able to go on a walkabout Oblivion to finally get a little space from himself.
Perhaps he will learn a whole new Way of Walking out there. Perhaps, as Lorkhan did, walk all the way out to the edge of everything (tidying up as he goes but never staying long enough in one place to do real damage), turn around and look toward the Tower that is both a hub and a spoke... and understand it in an entirely new way yet.
I know some people get salty, smug, or whathaveyou about having a Real Mad Person commenting on relevant videos, but I am really enjoying your metaphysics videos and figure it's not hurting anyone.
one of my favorite and memorable moments in shivering isles is discovering Jyggalag.
I’m currently replaying Oblivion and just earlier today I completed the Shivering Isle main quest, talk about timing. Nice video, as always!
... i want the armor in the thumbnail to be a mod.... i need to wear such beautiful full plate
Is the statue not a mod itself? I've never come across it during my travels in Skyrim.
@@kompav5621 no i dont think its a mod
@@IamaDinosaur i already have that mod, i just was wanting the armor on that statue to be remade into whereable armor in a mod, well at least i had a nice chat with someone whos making a- oh where are my mannors, dont want to spoil it
@@kompav5621 It's likely from the Wintersun:: Faiths of Skyrim mod. It adds bonuses for worshipping gods and being devoted. You can pick from some divines and daedra but Jyggalag is available through the statue of the female version of Jyggalag's armor
@@wobinich2009 It is! Thanks a bunch for that.
I like to think that Jyggalag is on a self discover journey, wandering the voids of Oblivion, pondering his existence, and will return after finding illumination; after then, the daedra better start packing because they will be no more.
I also think that's the main reason Jyggalag never brought the grey march on the other daedra (aside from the Vigilant mod, seriously, go play it), since daedra play such an important part in the lore, it would be hard to imagine TES without them.
I was upset that they didn't add this Prince in Skyrim. It would have been an awesome sidequest for an awesome weapon.
Mostly because he has no interest in the affairs of mortals
@@the_dropbear4392 C'mon. It'll help him regain his strength. A follower, no less the DB?
Literally the second that Jyggalag teleported away in my game this video got uploaded.
Thank you Fucker McDickShit, very cool
KryptonicMatter hell Yeah it was
Speaking of the Gods:
I’ve always found it interesting, the connections between the Statues of Talos and Boethiah.
I mean, I know it’s not written, and there’s all these other theories about who/what the snake that Talos stands over is supposed to be.
But my theory on it, is that it’s Talos standing up to deceit and chaos. Destroying the idea of rebellion and anarchy.
Another excellent and in-depth video, Drew! Your Daedrology series is by far my favourite on the channel. Keep up the great work!
I've been waiting in *ORDER* to see this video on Jyggalag
It’s almost as if the other Daedra didn’t so much curse Jyggalag as they did force him to stare into a mirror for all eternity, pondering himself, his goals, and his own inborn conflictions.
I came to love Jyggalag. Just as I love Sheogorath. I hope we get to see him more in a future game!
Becoming Sheogorath im Oblivion was just the best plot ever, I just want a game now where you play as Sheogarath doing stupid and funny sht with haskill
Jyggalag and Sheogorath represent the two forms of madness and consciousness, lucid grasping coherency and rambling mindless chaos. Then that explains how the other princes might have overcome him, they may have simply pushed him from one state of consciousness to the other and let his own power do the rest.
Great video! Thanks for uploading!
Dear @fudgemuppet,
You have single handedly ridden me of my melatonin addiction.
I just watch your elder scrolls content on shuffle and your voice rocks me to sleep every night
Hope you enjoy my TH-cam red money
If I could make one suggestion, make more hour long videos
I wanna erase my knowledge of the prince series purely to watch it again.. Incredible content.
Dragons next my guy. 🤙
Shoutout to the “Vigilant” mod
Seems like jyggalag and Hermaus Mora had some similarities in their quests for all of knowledge
Jyggalag not seeking knowledge, he already knows everything of past and future, as of Herma Mora is just seeking knowledge just for sake of it. So if u want connect them better to say thay Herma Mora has infinite interest of Jyggalag.
@@blacksunserpent Herma said he is all knowing. Not sure about Jyyg since I never played Oblivion
@@erikho6936 this is two years late but herma isn’t all knowing he can’t create new knowledge that’s what’s diff about jygg
There is a mod name "Vigilant" in wich, in the final act, you get trapped in the middel of Jyggalag's invasion to Coldharbour.
I think Jyggalag is really the Prince of Harmonious Creation & Ordering. The need to order the world around us, such as how societies evolve in their political form to meet certain needs and maintain a sense of order. Almost like he represents the pathological need to constantly improve that we have as humans - and in the Elder Scrolls, Sheogorath's interactions with Vivec, in Battlespire and Daggerfall all point towards this need to order the world and create something new (Sheogorath was this creative aspect minus the capability for order). So, in a way, Sheogorath represents the crushed spirit of this order-striving force that has become that same pathology but now turned utterly chaotic by the forces of Oblivion (the princes are often referred to as forces).
Counter point: maybe he is the god of order and being trapped in the psyche of Sheogorath has robbed him( or gifted him) of his perfect reasoning and omniscience. He also lost his realm and most of his power during the last grey march, it could be jyggalag now lacks the powers necessary to force order on aetherius, oblivian, and mundus.
This video will please my lord. A fantastically thought out explanation of Jyggalag
Maybe jyggalag has broken free of the godhead through being the prince of order and knowing and planning everything since he’s the only prince that knows his purpose
Been asking for this for a while now. Thanx Fudgo.
that libary is of his was cursed , knowing the past and future in all possable ways of everything is madness / chaos
This has to be one of my favourite of your Skyrim theories
That sweetroll looks Dangerous, keep your distance.
Its laced with some fire lsd
What I think is (maybe) Hermaeus Mora is a form of Jyggalag or has taken some of his power as he, has knowledge of what has happened, what is happening, and what is yet to happen. Or maybe Hermy had betrayed the other princes without them knowing and is feeding off of the power and knowledge of Jyggalag, hence why Hermaeus is so powerful. This allowing Miraak being able to return to Solstheim. Hermaeus was also able to enter Skyrim, when he played the Ogham Infinium. Just a theory.😊
This guy found peace in the chaos
Well said. Seeking absolute order across all time and space can be nothing less than a mad endeavor. True perfection is after all pure chaos.
The reason why he didn’t stop the curse is because it simply wasn’t the logical solution because true order is a pattern they both need each other to exist and he knows that deadra can achieve chim so they are forever stuck in the plain the reason why he left his sword and because he simply understood everything he could ever do would be pointless he is after all just a dream and explains why the immortal told the hok he could never achieve ascendce because he would mantle the mad god preventing him from ever achieving chim
👍
the daedric prince jyggalag and the daedric prince sheogorath are like the fish tank(fishey sticks?) experiment. where u have a fish tank filled with water and glitter.... the glitter settles to the bottom. perfect order... but when you stir the tank, chaos follows. but if you look closely, there is order to the chaos. currents form where there were none. patterns begin to emerge. perfect order and perfect chaos can not exist. they can only balance each other. as evil cannot exist without good. two sides of the same coin.
Bringing Order to *Chaos,* Good _Luck._
Order is no fun. Now bringing chaos to order... now that is fun!
I CAN DO ANYTHING
I believe you’re correct. Jyggalag has to be the god of madness, it’s the only thing that could make sense. A commonly quote for madness is this; ‘The definition of madness is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.’ And this describes the Graymarch perfectly. He took over the Shiverinh Isles time and time again, expecting it to be different.
Top 3 Daedra that weren't invited to the party
1. Jyggalag - DON'T TOUCH MY MOM'S PORCELAIN kid
2. Peryite - boring disgusting boi
3. Malacath - what a loser lmao
Just realized something about jyggalag what made him so powerful and so feared by the other princes he is the only prince who’s sphere doesn’t require free will.
Every deadric prince requires a aspect of free will from their followers and even their dremora servants but jyggalag’s sphere of logic and order is so powerful it transforms the environment and people completely just look at the grey march with. When those give themselves to jyggalag they are stripped of their individuality and freewill nothing but pieces on a board to be moved at his will alone.
That’s why the other princes allied against jyggalag because left unhindered cold reasoned unrestrained order would consume all of oblivion.
All shall tremble before Jygalaag!!!
"-It's finally official, I've now covered every single Daedric Prince."
ESO Necrom: "Yeah, about that..."
*infects every prince with order*
TES VI plot!
Perhaps Jyggalag got an amnesia effect after being Sheogorath. Like the idea of breaking into your own house to test the security, Sheogorath being Jyggalag meant he could specifically counter his OWN plans, methods, and new ideas then when he is forced to Grey March, he has no memory of what he did and is driven crazy as it seems his chaotic opponent seems to know exactly what he is thinking, hence why when the Hero of Kvatch gets there, its mostly Shivering Isles despite Jyggalag having a Grey March, showing how possibly each Grey March he re conquered less land as its easier to destroy than to build, to be chaos than to control. He outsmarted himself playing as his own opponent.
I'd like to say two things...
Say this library existed... Sounds very familiar to a particular realm some dragonborn are familiar with...
AND if he does come back... what happens the moment he takes back the realm of madness? I mean it is still in Oblivion after all...
In a way he's still cursed isn't he?
Maybe...unless he takes out one of the other princes first, and takes their realm. It seems the curse is not only bound to him, but his realm as well. Maybe if he leaves the shivering isles be until he crushes the other Princes, he'd be all right, you know?
Honestly I think that Jyggalag is just hanging out and chilling with Malacath.
Simply put. He is the personification of the theory of Ordered Chaos bro...
Jyggalag: *Makes a library containing all knowledge*
Hermaeus Mora: "Hey what the fuck"
Imagine the power Sheogorath and Jyggalag working together, it’d be madness and order at the same time, the other princes would fear them
They were the same person so thats not possible bro ✌️
@@CatchTheMarmosets They're separated since the end of Shivering Isles.
@@sheogorath6834 “were”
@@CatchTheMarmosets I don't see why that's not possible then.
@@sheogorath6834 order and madness are the opposite. Like meridia and molag bal working together lol
You know, this really does make sense when you put it like that.
I've started playing Frostpunk lately and let me tell you trying to build a prospering city, with or without resorting to ways to control the population, is downright maddening!!
I wished there was a Jyggalag deadric shrine in Skyrim.
Download Wintersun mod. It adds many shrines and blessings of many TES deities like the Elven gods(Magnus,Phynaster,Trinimac,Syrabane etc),Sithis,Shor,Ebonarm,Mannimarco and The Hist,The Allmaker etc... Jyggalag is also included.
What a fantastic analysis. Great connection between alternate forms of madness.
CHEESE! For everyone! Actually, no cheese. I suppose that’s just as much a reward for somebody who dislikes cheese.
Well, you can not like cheese. If you’re partial to being flayed alive and having a guy on the internet play jump rope with your entrails
Jyggalag needs more love i want see Jyggalag kick ass