She died because of the throne. She got crushed by Maegors keep. Also a way to see it :) although in the show it (well, almost everything) was executed badly.
You think they couldn't come up with Hold The Door but could come up with Dany having a turn to madness, all the way from Season 1, while GRRM was heavily involved with the show? Ok...
Theon & Sansa 〈3 they confirmed GRRM told them about the Hold the Door twist....so yeah pretty sure that's still happening in the book & I doubt D&D would have been able to come up with it on their own. Dany going apeshit on Kings Landing is definitely something they could have done cuz oh yes they did it....😒
@@ieatzebraarah They also said Bran as King came from GRRM and someone told me I can't trust them. Lol. But if they changed something so major how could GRRM say on his own multiple times that the major beats will be the same???
@@totallydifferentvibe No, they didn't come up with Daenerys going mad since season one, they were just copying George's books early on & never understood anything. As soon as they stop copying, they messed everything up, the Daenerys madness decision was made in the spur of the moment for shock without logic.
@@coo3disk1 They did not come up with it all all. GRRM did. That's why the dragon flying over King's Landing and her vision of never sitting the throne but instead going to meet Drogo & her son was so important.
What annoys me the most, are the people trying to defend this story, trying to make sense of what happened in the show with logic, when the writers clearly showed everyone that they didn't use logic nor care.
@@hua_tetsu_cat It's not the amount of time the show was on TV, it's the significant decrease in quality following Season Four, when Dan and Dave were forced to create their own material.
@@josephblasko26 So true. Majority of people definitely liked it. And many people find the books a bore. (I don't, but they are too wordy and some plots are utterly pointless)
@@tashacrawford770 I'm just in the like it camp. There is room for improvement. But this is their first TV show so I think they did an amazing job with what they had, personally.
I’m okay with the actual plot points, but they needed more time to germinate. Had we two more seasons, I think it would have been great. But they rushed it, badly.
@@TheIronTiger44 I agree. I'm fine with it but they definitely needed and I think they wanted more time but everyone looked so worn out. The cast and crew looked so over it,except that one guy who I hope is in the prequels.
@no one Book Stannis will die before even meeting Daenerys in my opinion, I believe he will die in a battle against the Others, because he isn't Azor Ahai.
@@sophiawilson8696 The name is likely not all that important. The show probably meshed certain characters together in Jon. But if Rhaegar's plan was to disinherit Elia's children then naming Jon Aegon as well would be of significance if he wanted the next king to be Aegon.
@Kat Wilson Agreed. It seems quite likely that Jon's "real name" isn't Aegon at all and they only called him that in the show because they attributed to him the rivalry with Dany which in the books will be fAegon's narrative.
@What ? you seem to not know what a writer's block is, and also, he's focusing completely on the book now so another excuse for spreading hate out of the way, it seems like you just want to hate george! also, this isnt even close to a toxic fanbase, you know nothing about toxic fanbases lol
The Jamie ending in the show made me sooo mad. They'd literally spent 4 seasons giving his character the turnaround just to go "well he just can't help himself and people don't really change". And especially because in the books he's already almost completely binned Cersei off. It just felt like a huge character assassination.
@etty77 i heard that GRRM described it as a reversed beauty in the beast. Hence, her nickname. Except here the girl is ugly and kind and the boy is beautiful and a jerk and she changes him and yadayadayada. So I think in the books they will fall in love.
"the books are the books, the show is the show". GRRM has repeatedly said this and he letting people know that they're both different. That I all I need to know.
Yeah, I just got done binge reading the books now I'm watching the show. I'm only in s3 but I realized 2 seasons ago that these are different stories. The book is like a coloring book and the show writers refuse to color inside the lines. I believe GRRM is going to keep writing his books the way he intends and just let the show writers go their own way. It will be 2 different stories and the internet will melt in the aftermath. 🔥
Don't forget they jobbed out Brynden Rivers, aka the Three Eyes Rivers. Some one who actually had an effect on the history of Westeros, brought into the just to not be named then written off instantly.
This is true, but Jeyne is a shadowy character in the books. She has no importance in her own right. Despite being Sansa's best friend, she hardly features even in Sansa's chapters, except for after the massacre of the Stark household. She then gets removed from KL until she is wheeled out as fake Arya, but even then how much do we learn about her? Very little if anything. How would you go about creating the character in the show? Does she remain a background extra, or do you expand her? Princess Shireen was greatly expanded in the show, as the showrunners made her Stannis' conscience/essential goodness, and it worked. I'm not sure such possibilities exist for Jeyne.
Wasn't introduced, but was in the show. She's the girl that was always next to Sansa in episode 1...can't remember if she went down to KL in the show or not, but she was definitely sitting next to Sansa at the feast in Winterfell
""Go if you wish, Ser. I will not detain you, I will not detain any of you. I may not be able to cure them, but I can show them that their mother cares." This is one of Danys last chapters in dance, and it shows her most defining character aspect. Her love for the small folk. There is not a scenario that exists in which she will intentionally roast them.
Dany dominated TV more than any character I have ever seen, she may be the best fictional character of all time, just my opinion. Iconic complex and extremely controversial, if Grrm doesn't write Daenery targaryen correctly his books will end as badly as the show. Congratulations to Emilia for an Emmy nomination
Exactly! There needed to be at least a full season to develop her from being a good hearted idealist to a war criminal murdering children. The scenario presented in the show was so ridiculous it was insulting to us fans.
@@zechrojas2202 What ever happen to all the hints of child birth for Dany in season 7, it's almost like dumb and dumber went for the complete shock value ending last minute and it bombed big time
@@bossmode3769 part of me thinks that dumb and dumber purposely didn't develope her madness solely for the sudden shock value. I'm sure they thought they were geniuses.
Pretty sure that this is not a secret. Theres a reason that george is "suddenly" only working on ASOIAF. It's because he wanted to watch these idiots who destroyed his story crash and burn, then give us the real story.
bill hicks no he understands money now, nor writing and people need to stop putting him on a pedestal. He’s no Tolkien, and since it’s been so long since something decent has come out of him, he’s not a writer as in books. He can give you a Hollywood script, but nothing else.
The main thing I hate is what they did to House Targaryen and Starks. I don't mind the Starks being on top but I don't like how they did Daenerys because she came North and helped defeat the dead before she continued fighting Cersei and the fact that they had Sansa and Arya against her just because she wasn't a stark really irritated me. First of all outside of the four of them nobody is one of them so that was stupid as hell to say. Then Jon's heritage being used for people to conspire and undermine the two of them pissed me off too because they both pulled their forces together and helped save the world from the white walkers, why would people think the more peaceful solution would be to pit the two against one another instead of joining houses and yes call me corny but c'mon every one else got a happy ending and Jon's heritage got no pay off anyway. In season 6 finale Tyrion advised Daenerys to leave Daario in mereen because once she got to Westeros she'd need to marry someone. But that didn't even brought up this season well Tyrion suggested it to Varys but Varys was against it only because the plot needed him to be to get the ending they got.
@@bethaofhouseblackwood234 Worse, she betrayed her brother even though she knew there might be people killed, she was willing for that so she could be queen. I think she expected the IT and the North was second best. I wonder if she'll even enjoy it. Luckily for her, she has no conscience.
Sansa, not Arya. Arya did not trust Dany but until she KNEW Dany was guilty of something, she wasn't going to hurt her. She was grateful for her help and told Jon he was right to do what he had to get it. Sansa spread the secret that led to so many deaths in KL.
After giving myself some time to think, the one thing I realized I will never get behind is Dany going mad. We have a perfect character in the books for that, with her paranoia growing stronger and stronger with each passing day, Cersei should be the one to go "mad" after another bunch of deaths in King's Landing including Marcella in Dorne
Even if Cersei is gooing fully nuts I highly doubt she will have any authorithy whatsoever in the books again.The walk of shame and the result of it is much more realistic portayed in the books.I definitly can not see her as queen or even in charge again.
@@saivamshi7740 I don't think Sansa will go mad, just because she's somewhat removed from most of the major plots right now (in my opinion). We'll have to see how things develop. I wouldn't be surprised if she has trouble with her multiple identities, though. If that's the kind of mad you mean :)
@@wishingfortwins that's the thing, it took years for even the mad king to go fully nuts with betrayal and 6 months of imprisonment being the final straw, before that he lost few babies, cersei is on a similar path, Dany isn't
Remember when she wanted to burn Kingslanding with her then 3 dragons in season 7 and Jon had to talk her out of it? Does she really deserve better or was she finally embracing who she really is?
@Todd Starbuck Characters throughout the series have sacked cities and murdered innocents all over the place. Robb ordered his men to rape and pillage their way through the Westerlands in order to "pay Tywin Lannister back with his own coin." That kind of standard medieval warfare is totally different than the decision to murder an entire city of innocent people for no reason after the city has surrendered. The fact that the show makes Dany a mass murdering psychopath proves absolutely nothing. The show has completely misrepresented every single character in the series - why should we assume it's representing Dany in a fair way now when it never has before? Just because some plot points are going to be similar doesn't mean the characterization will be. Every single character in the show has been twisted into some funhouse version of themselves so D&D can validate their own moral judgements about the book characters. Take Tyrion for example: In the books, Tyrion pledges to kill Jaime, Cersei, and Tywin. He murders Shae - it's not self defense. He goes to Essos and rapes a few slaves, hoping that he can make them hate him as much as he hates himself. He convinces Aegon to sail his army to Westeros because he wants to see the world burn down. Then he goes to Dany, intent on doing the same thing, and he asks that in return for his service he should be allowed to rape and kill his sister. In the show, he's a funny dwarf. He goes to Dany because gee-whiz he just wants to make the world a better place - isn't that great? He drinks and he knows things and makes cock jokes to Varys! LOL!! I'm sure some plot points are going to be similar, but the characterization is comically off-mark. Dany's not going to be a villain in the books any more than Tyrion is going to be a hero. George writes grey characters, but D&D have simplified everyone down to cardboard "good guys" and "bad guys" based on which ones they like and dislike.
@@jinx5005 She said she wanted to burn the Red Keep along with Cersei when she should have done so. She never said she wanted to burn the entirety of King's Landing.
@@jinx5005 No I don't remember Dany wanting to burn down Kingslanding, but I do remember Dany wanting to burn down the red keep with cersei in it. Another one who struggles with memory issues, jons just a hypocrite who only uses war when it suits him
Personally I don’t think Arya will wipe out House Frey, I think Lady Stoneheart will. But yeah I agree that Sansa being Queen of the only independent kingdom makes no sense when she has the strongest tie to the King of the Iron Throne. She should be the strongest loyalist to the crown. And I would like to see Bran rule from Winterfell
No, it makes sense why she asked for independence. Bran isn't immortal, he won't be King forever. Therefore _not_ asking for independence would have been foolish. Once Bran dies and the next king is selected (because now their rulers are _chosen_ ), whoever rules next, once Bran and Sansa are dead and gone, _may_ not be a very good ruler, and the North ends up stuck under the thumb of a tyrant once more.
@@GrayArea D&D clearly have there favourite characters and gave them favourable storys and favourable endings. Weiss favourite character is sansa, so I guessing the line, "She's the smartest person I know" came from Weiss.
@@GrayArea I think it was a disaster because it was rushed.The entire season was rushed and totally destroyed years of hitherto what was the best thing in cinema history.Nothing made sense anymore
I definitely think it's the rush. I personally think D&D did their best to stick to GRRM's outline and that's part of the problem. So IMO most major things including majority of the character's endings will be the same. Jorah's ending is questionable because they supposedly considered leaving him alive after The Long Night. I think we are going to see a much darker side of EVERYONE during Winds of Winter based on something GRRM said.
How could she be his favourite character, when he ignored her book development, to keep regressing her to victim-status? The whole Ramsay/ Sansa thing was just a repeat of Joffrey/ Sansa, on steroids - in the books Sansa’s developing a political mind, & she’s gained a stronger understanding of what’s going on behind the scenes in the Vale.
Honestly, their screwed up ideas and interests when it comes to character development is disgusting. I don't know why D&D find sexual assault and abuse so fascinating. That's why it's annoying Sansa was turned into a victim in the show. They think rape and abuse is what makes a person stronger (when that's actually backwards logic). Cersai and Sansa were always their favorites. That was never a secret. They stated that on multiple occasions. Just look it up who is Benioff's favorite character. It's not an absurd thing to say it's a fact. Everyone remember this interview: "We really wanted Sansa to play a major part this season," Benioff said. "If we were going to stay absolutely faithful to the book, it was going to be very hard to do that. There was a subplot we loved the from books, but it used a character that's not in the show." Can we just knowledge that fact the D&D are just really messed up when it comes to their favorites?
c_vee12 But it comes from a false premise, doesn’t it? You can’t really say ‘this’ character is your favourite- but you then ignore all their plot lines & development after a certain point, just to largely keep where they were. It wouldn’t have ‘been very hard to do’- _had_ they been halfway decent writers; people craft composite characters, it is a thing that gets done in historical fiction & adaptations, to help keep a cast from getting unwieldy- I get that, really - but it *has* to make sense; Gendry/ Edric makes sense (mostly) - Jon/ fAegon didn’t, nor did Sansa/ fArya (Jeyne Poole). There were ways it _could_ have, but they had to stick to their simplistic, reductive & nonsensical ideas....
OcarinaSapph1r3 -24 Why are you so insistent that this is false speculation? No, we‘re _not_ making this up!! It is the truth!! So did you also ignore the fact they gave Sansa her own needle (her necklace)? Gave her Jon’s speech about fighting for Winterfell? Gave her Arya’s ‘the lone wolf dies but the pack survives’ quote? Say what you want about plot lines and character development, it’s _still_ not going to change the fact that Sansa is their favorite. Just go on ANY Sansa stan blog, they also defend D&D’s writing. There is no false premise, I’m not ignoring anything, it’s just a damn fact. I truly do not understand why you are reaching so far to not believe Sansa is their favorite. There is no if, ands, or buts. Claiming Sansa is anything but their favorite is just making false theories and scenarios in your head.
c_vee12 I don’t get what you think I’m trying to say. The _last_ thing I would do is defend those hacks- if that’s what you think I’m doing... I personally think them claiming Sansa is their favourite character is BS; they also loved Tyrion- so much so, that they turned him into a moron who did little bar crack stupid jokes & fail to read his own sister’s intentions, who was described previously by him, as pretty easy to work out... yet, for all this failure (that would have killed anyone else in an earlier season, no matter how powerful, or important)- he’s somehow able - while a prisoner, no less - to manipulate who becomes the next ruler, **&** be named their right-hand man (the ruler in question then gives him the most powerful & important position- essentially making him de-facto king) - this immensely unearned ending made plenty of people dislike Tyrion- who’d been a fan-favourite from the start. Had they actually felt that way about Sansa (or really, any of their so-called ‘favourites’), they would have crafted a much better storyline for her- so yes, plot lines & character development **do** matter - because this lazy, reductive, & ultimately nonsensical endgame is why this show ended as a joke. Unlike some people, I’m not a Sansa-hater - I’m not a hater, or a ‘stan’ of anyone... I just wanted a good ending to the show so many of us had invested so much time, in seeing unfold- & I was immensely disappointed...
I keep harping on this but that “West of Westeros” bullsh*t made me wanna pull my locs out. Why didn’t she just ask the world encyclopedia that replaced her brother?? Arya never said anything like that in the books. Also she is in love, love with Gendry.. I don’t see her just curving him like that either when all she truly wants in revenge and then stability. But don’t mind me, I’m an Arya fan girl.
I hate her fate in the show but I also hope she doesn't end up with Gendry either. I simply can't disregard George's earliest seeds when it comes to Arya and Jon. In my opinion, their fates are tied together.
I think D&D felt that they had to make Sansa queen because they made her a serial rape victim. Also, TV audiences expect someone who looks like that to be queen. I hope in the books Jon or ARya gets Winterfell/
@@LL-xp2jb If you look at the name of the wolves it shows their destiny IMO. Ghost - Jon will go away/be driven away. Grey wind - Gone with the wind, words are nothing Shaggy Dog - A pointless story Nymeria - Arya will be traveling Lady - Sansa will be the Lady of something (it could be Winterfell, the Vale, possibly both), however the lady part is somewhat dead Summer - After the Winds of Winter a new spring will be ushered in, and a long summer of Bran's rule will follow GRRM has said just look to the beginning to find the end.
@@LL-xp2jb I think Sansa will become Queen or Lady of Winterfell at some point in the books if not the end. It's what her current story and character arc is building up to at this moment, now that she's being tutored by Littlefinger in the Vale about politics and playing the game. She's going only going to move up now that shes been the victim for so long. I dont know about Arya, but I would've loved to see her at her sister's side in the TV show because Sansa is ruling all alone. So much for "the pack" staying together. Lmao
Those are part of history that is constantly repeating. He wants to show us parts of circle so we can see whole picture. We are not awere yet of how genious and mega project this is. John Snow character will develop more and more till he becomes King that Arya sneaks on in Long Night and kill.
Gray, this video makes me want to finally start reading the books I've been avoiding reading because of that trash show ending. I just don't want to fall In love with the books and in the end House Targaryen and it's Queen is annihilated. You're making a great case for me to chance it though.
The book as a whole is darker than shown on TV. It's good to read it and come to your own conclusions. Some of the changes D&D made I really appreciated, the book can get depressing at certain points.
I definitely hated season 8. The writing was horrible and sloppy. The story itself was plot driven and not character driven. A lot of our main characters were dumbed down just to move the plot forward to get to the ending. The long night was the most disappointing it should've been global around Westeros not just ending in one damn night. I'm pissed that Tyrion made it put alive because it's unrealistic that his dwarf ass made it but I know he's either Dan or Dave's favorite so he made it put like a bandit, that shit was fan service as well. When you think about it if any other character was as dumb af as Tyrion they would've died but nope not the big failure as a person Tyrion.
There was no way that Tyrion would survive, just like the infinity number of lifes that Arya had or Sam... or even Jon, that was almost killed for Viserion and then "forgiven" by a DRAGON! a Dragon who understood that THE THRONE had kill her mother and not Jon some say.. It was just awful
@@franfresa Yeah Tyrion and Jon survivng what they survived isn't realistic and true to Game of Thrones even if they're going to survive til the end in the books then they shouldn't have put them in situations where they should've died.
I knew the show was in trouble when they omitted Jaime's reveal to Tyrion about what really happened with Tysha. Not only is that reveal heart breaking but the rage he felt is the very thing that motivates Tyrion to turn around from his escape, and climb up to Tywin's quarters to confront him. He finds Shae naked with Tywin's necklace which adds fuel to the fire, and that's when he decides to kill his Father. Also, he and Jaime leave on bad terms with Tyrion slapping him and threatening to kill him the next time they meet. In the show Tyrion and Jaime part ways as beasties. Then Tyrion just turns around for seemingly no reason whatsoever. He is literally in the middle of escaping a death sentence and just decides to go see his dad which should have been suicide.
agreed, their story is tied to th Brotherhood Without Banners, and I think Arya will meet Lady Stoneheart when she comes back to Westeros, might give her the gift of mercy, also she might become the next leader of the Brotherhoos Without Banners, makeing them good again, caring for the smallfolk and stuff. And yes, no way is book Gendry is becoming a lord, he'll hate it, his brother EDRIC STORM is a much better candidate for that shit!
Honestly I don't think Tyrion is going to be hand of the king at the end.... he may, but is a long shot.. he is hated in westeros and is going to arrive with Daenerys and three dragons.
Sansa becoming the Queen in the North or the Lady of Winterfell could make sense though. At the start of the books, all she wants to is to leave Winterfell, go South and marry a pretty knight or prince or whatever. She actively rejects her Northern heritage -even if she does not realise it at 13. Now that all of these fantasies and naive dreams of hers only turn out to bring misery...having her completely turn her back on them and realising who she truly is makes sense. A commitment to celibacy by becoming the Queen in the North would be an interesting character development.
•Bronn lord of Highgarden? Don’t think so! •The WWs being so ridiculously and easily defeated? Nope!!! The WWs and children of the forest history and lore being so poorly addressed? Naaah! •The Martells....oh the Martells.... •Daenerys snapping all of sudden? Definitely not!!! So disappointed with how the show ended....even if it was always suppose to end like that...things just felt so rushed and wrong. 13 episodes for the last two seasons was definitely not enough!!! And that’s on them!!!
I don't think it'll happen in Winds of Winter, probably in Dreams of Spring but I do think Jon and Daenerys will meet and form some type of relationship I don't know if it'll be as friends or something more but it will play some significance in the overall story. If any Targaryen was going to burn down King's Landing my money is on Young Griff. Cersei though is a more likely suspect.
It will be a dragon, remember the scene with the dragon flying over King's Landing all the way back in Season 1 was designated as one of the most important.
It’s funny how you accept that Bran will be king in the end of both versions but still don’t think the Mad Queen will be a thing. I’m sorry to say this because i can’t say I liked it but it is going to happen but it will just make a lot more sense. Sorry but Dany will go mad just in a more relatable way!
@agnat86 the funniest thing that Yara swallowed Arya's threat. True Yara would have drawn out her sword and taught Arya to respect other warrior women (though Arya was out of character too).
If I recall correctly, GRRM's & D&D's most recent statements regarding the book vs show ending was that the primary characters' destinations would be the same, but the path getting their would be different. So Jaimie & Cersei die together in both versions, but the book version could be Jaimie killing Cersei as the Valonqar, while the show is assassination by brick. Sansa may end up Lady of Winterfell and Warden of the North for King Bran--not the same title, but in terms of a rough outline comparison, she's still leader of the North. So basically, the epilogue pieces of GoT will supposedly match the books--and only for the primary characters. (Although Arya turning into Christopher Columbus makes no sense to me. Maybe GRRM's outline just says "Arya doesn't marry Gendry and become a Lady... or Arya wargs into Nymeria and D&D said "nope, we already blew our CGI budget" lol)
The problem is how long GRRM has taken to write the end of the story. He can’t complain about things when he’s been dragging his feet. Yes I know that it’s his prerogative, but if his publishers were holding him to a deadline then we’d have a closure to this story that aligned with his vision…
9:58 In the books all the Stark children + Jon are skinchangers. 1. Bran obviously is Bran. 2. Little Rickon claims to have "seen" Ned Stark in the Winterfell crypts. Plus, his wolf Shaggydog has green eyes, suggesting greensight. 3. Jon has wolf dreams while in the Frostfangs. 4. Arya, through Nymeria, locates Catelyn Stark's body in the Trident. 5. Robb likely saw the secret path around the Golden Tooth in a wolf-dream. 6. Even Sansa, the first to lose her wolf, has bird dreams while she's in the Eyrie. TLDR: It's still *technically* possible for Sansa's storyline to turn supernatural. I personally doubt that will happen, but there you go.
Reading the book and knowing Bran be king is interesting. All his early chapters before his encounter with Jaime. The way he describes ruling winterfell when climbing and Ned wants him to come with at kings landing to learn to rule and marry . Really can see GRRM breadcrumbs
I’m so glad you make these videos so I can show my friends and family! I’m literally the only in my family that had read 4 of the main books from the ASOIAF and all the companion books and I always agree with you and your guests sometimes as well.
I mean I'm sure they're going to meet obviously and maybe something will happen, but frankly I think they each have far bigger things to worry about! And I always believed ice and fire stood for the 'prophecy'/Jon Snow himself considering who his parents are.
@@gerardjagroo doesn't mean he and Dany won't get together in the books they're paralleled to each other every step of the way there's a part in the books where in Dany's visions she sees a winter rose grow on a wall of ice and that it "filled the air with sweetness"
It doesn't make sense to me why Sansa would be have to be queen in the north if Bran is king. Why would the north need to be independent if a STARK is already ruling the rest of the kingdoms?
In the first episode Sansa wheedled her mother sayingqueen is all she ever wanted, Please,please. Nothing less will do in her mind. She's gonna screw up one way or the other and he'll get it back. He plays the LONGEST game.
Watching seasons 5 and beyond are like watching a toddler recreate the Mona Lisa with crayons from memory. I can see what are book notes and what is DnD throwing shit at a wall
It makes no sense for Bran the Bland to give independence to the North and Sansa as their queen. He said over and over again that he's not Bran anymore, he's the 3Eyed Raven. When he returns to Winterfell and reunites with his siblings he is emotionless. So why would an all seeing 3 Eyed Raven decide Sansa was deserving and fit to rule the North yet let Jon be banished. Seems more like he didn't see anything that's been going on, not the other way around. Great start on your rule Bran Bran.
Sansa becoming Queen in the North didn't make sense to me because she said the starks will never bend the knee again yet Bran is a Stark so why become a separate kingdom the writing made georges ending look shit
Yes I had that thought too. And yet in the end they were looking for a Master of Whisperers.... Maybe George is merely exchanging one form of government with a potentially darker form again. He’s never promised a happy ending.
@@sooziemc8324 Remember Bran does not automatically see all. He can "poke further" and get to the bottom of things but if he doesn't have a reason to, he generally doesn't. So a Master of Whisperers would still be of aid to him. The Master of Whisperers also does politics with other people, not just the king. It's like a middleman.
I'm not gonna be a smug and say the reason that folks liked the last 4 seasons is because they didnt read the books. However, the majority of people who read it will definitely notice a huge difference of someone moving the characters as pieces of a chessgame in order to tell an interesting and surprising story, whereas the other is just a rushed and a bit uninspired adaption of what is (to me) a masterpiece. I hope by this that more people will pick those giant monsters of books and give them a try.
I really do hope Arya takes out Walder Frey and all his heirs in the same way. The speech she gave as Walder Frey was awesome! I was annoyed that they only referred to what happens to House Frey one time in the show (Jaime to Cersei). It seems like people would talk about that, especially the Northerners. Lord Manderly would be proud! I worry about Brienne’s fate in the books. Lady Stoneheart sent her to retrieve Jaime.
That was the problem with JK Rowling, the architect approach. She made up her mind before she wrote the book that Hermione would end up with Ron. But she never wrote a love story for Hermione and Ron. She did write a great love story for Harry and Hermione, but no she refused to go where her own story was taking her. It actually was a bad idea for Martin to give D&D an ending that was not well thought out and could change. I hope Danny going mad is as discarded as Sansa's child with Joffrey.
He's written himself into a box. At least the show made an attempt to untangle it. He's stuck, stuck, stuck. That's why it's more fun for him to do the gazillion side projects he's working on. They don't have that tangled web.
Let D&D write the two last books that will be just one book or half maybe omg what a disaster so no lets hope GRRM finish them but i dont think it will happen :/
Clearest indication that Dany could end completely different is with Tyrion. Yes Shae dies in both the show and books by Tyrions hand but in the show it's self defense, in the books it's murder. If Tyrion, one of the main characters and one of GRRMs faves, can be changed from someone who rapes slaves in the books to a cheerful moral compass in the show, there are no limits to how many things could've been changed in a contextual way.
Absolutely. Tyrion is a villain, GRRM himself labeled him so. He will be the devil on Daenerys' shoulder, not socialist wino as D&D have made his character to be.
@@Harahvaiti Definitely. He'll be the one convincing her of more brutal acts. I think her tragedy will be the death of her identity in the quest for the throne.
I just want to let you know, that you are such a great reader! Whenever you read quotes from the book, I melt into admiration. Martin has such a pleasing style of writing! And you do it a great service with your reading!
Why would Bran even wanna be in KL? is a very good question. It was built by the Targaryens after they conquered the land, there are no first men, no weirwoods, no other Starks
Last season was trash. Slap in the face to all the fans and George himself. Rush rush rush, blah blah blah. Just awful, ruined one of the greatest television shows/adaptions PERIOD.
Also, what gets me is how much the show paralleled Cersei with Aerys, only to make Daenerys the 'mad queen'. What? The wildfire. The torture leading to madness, paranoia, cruelty, and revenge. Chaining a mother just out of reach of her daughter and making one watch the other die. Torture being a turn on and forcing someone to have sex afterward... Cersei is and was the mad queen. What was the point of all of that? I'm not happy about the way mental illness in the show was portrayed. Daenerys succumbed to madness because it's "in her blood", yet Jon is safe. Daenerys, who showed no signs of schizophrenia or madness, suddenly succumbs to this genetic inheritance? Come on. Not to mention, Aerys went mad over many years - Daenerys snapped in seconds. That's not how mental illness works. And if Daenerys has schizophrenia, too, well that condition doesn't automatically make someone cruel, vengeful, or homicidal. This is a terrible message for SO many reasons - For those with mental illnesss, for women in power, for women who were victims of abuse, for aspiring revolutionaries... everyone. (And don't get me started on Varys contributing to Aerys' madness, even picking out victims for him and then acting like he has the moral high ground - and there's no WAY Tyrion is going to become the voice of reason). I read a comment on Tumblr that broke my heart. It said something like "No American writer will ever write a true literary hero who screams 'kill the masters!'" Like, fuck. As an American, that hurts. By the end of the series, I'm told I'm supposed to think this woman was 'evil all along' because she busted the paradox of tolerance wide open. No. For as apathetic as season eight made me about the show, the books, and the prequels... There's one thing left I give a shit about, and that's Daenerys. What they did to her was a fucking abomination on so many levels and mark my words, it will not age well at all.
Grrm woke up one day from his ivory tower and realized that he was attacking the very people that gave him his prestige privilege and wealth. Grrm decided to defend the masters and all forms of upstart and revolutionary tendencies in that very moment. Being a good person and attacking the establishment and improving the lives of millions is bad, a woman in power must be scrutinised no matter what good she has done in the past. As for genetics, Dany was always going to fail no matter what, she is the daughter of the mad king, she can never get away from her blood curse, what kind of uninspiring BS is that for people who have terrible parents. You missed out on the clear racism of the show, a group of brown Savages Lead by a white crazy woman , rightly rejected by a Caucasian white continent after she saves them all from certain annihilation. Dany and her foreigners must be rejected at all costs, the xenophobic north rightly won there independence and rejected these foreigners. Female empowerment must be checked, the raise of what Danys represents scares the life out of white insecure males, George must not upset them. In the end the destruction of Daenery targaryen was a political move by Grrm , he is now going for this ultimate power corruption BS narrative with his main female protagonist. Well done Grrm you bitter old fool, just go and destroy the dream of every girl out there , who was inspired by Daenerys Targaryen character for over 20 years. I used to be a stark stan, not any more, the only character I care about now is Daenery, she is so much more than this stupid power corruption move by George
@@aryasuperstark9599 I loved both the Starks and Daenerys without any conflict about it. I genuinely thought the point of this series was that everyone would HAVE to work together despite their differences for the greater good (I mean, HBO sold me fucking shirts with Stark/Targ logos on it FFS). And from what I saw, the Starks had no reason not to trust the woman who did nothing to them or their family and everything to save it without anything in return. All of that 'the child shall not be punished for the crimes of their father' went nowhere. I see you're an Arya fan, too. I really REALLY thought that the young girl who admired fucking Nymeria (a foreign warrior queen) and said the line "He killed the slave? He should have killed the masters!" might actually admire Daenerys. Speaking of things that went nowhere - even though I hadn't touched on the racism in season eight in my initial post, it definitely wasn't lost on me. In the earlier episodes, I thought that the way they framed the racism that Missandei and Grey Worm encountered... that they might make commentary on it. Say, after seeing these foreigners die en masse for them, that the northerners maaaybe might start thinking of them as people? Nah. Instead, they get rewarded for their homogeny and xenophobia - despite being of First Men blood (the original foreigners). It's just like redundant American racism. You might be right about GRRM and the ivory tower. If you are, then he's not the man I thought he was. I'm a pacifist, too, and I hate war and violence, but it never stopped me from rooting for Daenerys. Too much tolerance toward the intolerant and the intolerant take over. Peter Dinklage compared her actions in episode five to the WWII nuclear bombings, which are not comparable in the slightest considering: Japan was the aggressor, Roosevelt and Truman didn't go mad, Americans used the bombs as a last resort because Japan wouldn't surrender (no bells!), the US warned the civilians of the attack and gave them enough time to evacuate, the US killed about 10-20% of what Daenerys killed, and when Japan surrendered, no more attacks were carried out. When the anti-war message is exaggerated and bastardized to that degree, it falls flat. Way flat. I once did the math on 'Targaryen Madness'. I skimmed through literally every Targaryen we know of in canon. Depending on whether you decide to classify suicide or alcoholism as 'madness', Targaryen madness ranges from 6-9%. Two unrelated people on earth are at a base chance of 3% 'madness' (or mental illness), with cousins bumping that number up to 6% - so Targaryens are no more likely than earth cousins to be 'mad' (but it should be mentioned that several 'mad' Targaryens weren't even harmful (Baelor the Blessed and Prince Rhaegal). Aside from that, there might be a chance Daenerys isn't even related to Aerys (as the lemon tree mystery might imply).
@@daisyvision To put it mildly, it's wasnt Daenery targaryen character which changed, it's was the position and outlook of Grrm. Dany was originally one of grrm 5 survivors along with Tyrion Jon Arya and bran, something changed along the way. I believe that Grrm was influenced by the war in Iraq, the meereenese knot in a dance of dragons mirrored Americas occupation of Iraq and then his outdated power corrupts message was born. Truth is Daenerys messenge is so much more than that, She is a character who was able to deal with homelessness , physical and mental abuse, rape, she was an idealistic woman well ahead of her time and fought for the oppressed and downtrodden. Now she has been reduced to a crazy genocidal maniac , what kind of messege is that for the young people of today who want to do good in this world?. Most people blame D&D for this joke of a show and Grrm has gotten away Scott free. Grrm should be scrutinised just as vigorously as dumb and dumber.
@@daisyvision I was an Arya fan, but the bitterness of the last two season have left me questioning if I have any feelings for Arya at all or any of the starks. Arya murdered a whole house most of whom where innocent and she absolutely loved it, we are meant to believe that the crimes of Dany against the masters and tyrell is some kind of foreshadowing for her Madness. I don't remember there being a debate whether Arya was justified in taking revenge against a whole house. Truth is the double standards towards Dany is laughable, apparently her violence is bad and the violence of others is fine and we must root for Arya in that moment. Tyrion speech to Jon about Daenery was the biggest insult on the show, as if to try and convince us she was bad all along.
Everyone: I hate that bran became king, I wanna read the real ending when someone relevant takes the throne Me: I love that bran became a king. I hated how. So i wanna read the books that actually justify him ruling over everyone But whatever happens I am sure it ll be epic
There's no way the Others, those who hold a mirror to mankind's cruelty, ignorance and arrogance, those that are the embodiment of not only winter, not only climate change but death itself, the ones that show mankind that no matter what lands, titles, castles you hold power over, there's no escaping death, the ones who are the reason for the words "winter is coming" "the night is dark and full of terrors" and to some extent "all men must die" will be killed of in such a shitty way. IF George plans to treat the white walkers like this then im done with a song of ice and fire. The show essentially reduced the story to, in the words of mauler "a song of ice and fire without the fucking ice" there's no way the catharsis of this amazing series is going to come down to who gets to sit on the metal fucking chair. A song of ice and fire has not only never been about that but openly expresses over and over again within the story just how detrimental to the entire continent of westeros the fight for the iron throne is!!
I loved the show, I really did, but I can't even see it after the disaster they made. Tyrion beeing forgiven and then becoming hand of the king? There was no way that he would survive, and Grey Worm just ok with that (And with Jon left alive, deciced by another one held for treason..) just like the infinity number of lifes that Arya had or Sam! or even Jon, he was "forgiven" by a DRAGON! a Dragon who understood that THE THRONE had kill her mother some say... Add to that the easy death of the Night King, "The Long Night?" are you serious?, the death of Rhaegal because "Dany kind a forgot" Euron's Fleet and the fact that Drogon were indestructible a chapter later, with power not just to burn things, to make them explode too. The sudden madness of Dany, Jon's rejection, Sansa being a bitch for no reason, the infinity numbers of Dothraki and unsullied that Dany had, the atack to Dany's fleet and the precise capture of Missandei, the rol of The Golden Company! The sex escenes between Arya and Gendry and Briene and Jaime, just for him to die under the rocks!!! The lack of dialogue, the waste of screen time in the first two episodes and so on.. it really makes me sad
I love audible. I actually have a problem comprehending things with reading and the style of GRRM is dense and difficult for me to read. That's why audible is so great for me! Though it takes a few months to get through it. I'm only on the second book
For some reason whenever people hear that Bran being king is a George thing, they immediately think that it will be as stupid as it was in the show. Can we all please agree that just because Dan and Dave are horrible writers, doesn't mean that bran being King wouldn't make any sense in George's book. Everybody seems to think that since it was stupid in the show, that George will be stupid about it too for some reason?? If bran ends up being the king in Georgia's story, it will definitely make sense. Cuz it's George and not some hack showrunner😂
There was a Q&A session with Martin and someone asked if: (1) Bran's paralysis was real, not psychological; and (2) if Bran will ever walk again. Martin said that yes, Bran's was really paralyzed, but he refused to answer the second question. It's possible that if Bran becomes king, it might not be as Bran the broken.
Another thing that felt off was Sansa just safely going from house to house in season 6 asking for armies. The whole reason she’s in disguise in the Vale is because Cersei has a bounty on her head for allegedly killing Joffrey. I don’t think she can honesty come out the vale as Sana’a Stark until BOTH Bolton’s and Cersei, Tommen die- That’s why I agree she’ll remain in the Vale through TWOW and much of ADOS. She’s also not developed enough to scheme LF’s death yet. Her leadership portrayal was too heavy handed tbh.
Also, in the show she is basically married to two men at the same time. Her marriage to Tyrion was not anulled and she was married to Ramsay nonetheless. Only one to call her for it was Lyanna Mormont.
Thank you for that point!! I didn't even think that Sansa was officially married to 2 people at once. Now technically Tyrion never slept with her so there may be a technical reason the marriage between Tyrion and Sansa but good catch.
Something that I really hate that no one's been really talking about is the North getting independence at the end. I just think it's so much nicer ending it with everyone united. There's a Stark on the throne in King's Landing as well, so there's absolutely no need for it.
I Imagine Bran will rule from Harrenhal and the Gods Eye. He would have to rebuild it but it is stated in the books that Harrenhal is the greatest castle Westeros had ever seen and "only the king amongst kings can rule, garrison and hold the castle"
The ending came across as a really bad fanfic. They killed off Stannis and Barristan very quickly so they could end up having Jon & Davos and Tyrion & Daenerys then have all the fan favourite "good guys" come together for the ending. It was very cliche and the fan service was really bad.
Of course it’s not possible that Book End Same way as ASOIAF. Situation in book is absolutely, completely different. sansa’s death was spoiler from the first book as Ned and Robb. She will never be a queen in book. And Dany’s vision which spoiled her death in House undying really no existing in book
Missed you Gray. Glad to hear your passion again. Martin said himself the books will end the same. He might get there by a different road but it will be the same..
Eh. Love the books. Disgruntled with the author for doing everything else under the sun, except for finishing the books. Luckily your videos as well as many others videos keep me satisfied. 🙂
Yes I always look forward to these videos they give me great information I've just started on the books on Audible , I always luv Grey's an Talking Thrones videos an Grey she always goes into so many different storylines from the books an the show I've got alot of information from them both especially Grey I admire the work she does for her videos , from her I've been able to understand things that aren't in the show , she has the best voice for when she reads from the books , Thanks to Grey an Talking Thrones 👑🐺❄👑🐲🔥
I just hope that what happened to the author of Wheel of Time does not happened to GRRM. Author of Wheel of time (Robert Jordan ) got sick and dies before he finished the series
@@1rjona I think that's what he's hoping will happen. I think it's too much pressure and he doesn't know how to finish the books. Or he's sick of writing them that's why he keeps introducing more and more elements to keep himself interested but now it's too much to wrap up
12:04 Game of throne butchered Feast for Crows and Danse with Dragons and I think this has little to do with the butterfly effect. Entire plots were cut out - like Victarion, Aegon VI, Dorne, Davos, etc.
I still like the show despite the last season but I totally agree, they shot themselves in the foot because they cut out "minor" characters not realizing that whilst their roles were small, their actions would lead to large consequences.
In my opinion D&D were telling the story based on Winds being finished before the show. There was so much source material not used that could have carried us through a few more seasons. I feel like basically we got the cliff note (gosh I’m old) version. We watched the show and were left on the biggest cliff hangers ever....no answers. If we had to wait for the prequels then why start telling the story. I was glad to see the books come to life but disappointed to still be in the same place where I began. Thanks for your continued dedication Gray.
I think most of us asked the wrong question: Who will sit on the Iron Throne? The answer turned out to be NO ONE. The throne was destroyed. The question we should have asked was: Who will end up ruling Westeros? GRRM response regarding the ending as yes, and no, and yes, and no... leaves a LOT of wiggle room. So many people in the series die and resurrect, that I would find it impossible to believe that Daenerys' story is done. She's too important to the followers of R'hllor. Drogon flew away with her body. Dragons on intelligent (wondering if throne destroyed because it led to Mom's death or to make sure no one takes it away from Mom before she returns) I do think she'll return, but not directly. The whole go east to reach the west seems to indicate Asshai (more dragons would be good.) It may be a long shot, but it's still possible Dany is pregnant by Jon. And he swore he would beget no bastards. So... So it ain't over until the GRRM says it's over. Everyone pray he lives a long, long life.
I think if George ever finishes the books ( and I frankly doubt that’s ever going to happen) People are in store for a rude awakening. Bran as King? HBO and the actor who played Bran already confirmed that came straight from George. Sansa as Queen in the North? That can absolutely happen in the books. In fact, Sansa has had more “Kingship training “ plot in the books than she ever got in the show itself! Cersei as Queen? (probably not, as in the show probably a lot of the Fake Aegon plot went to Cersei by default) The White Walkers being defeated before the end of the main plot? ( why do you think George is so obsessed with the Scouring of the Shire ending in LOTR? ) Because it all happens AFTER Sauron is dead! Dany burning King’s Landing? What was the last episode George wrote for the show? 4.2 The Lion and the Rose. That episode features the first instance of Drogon’s shadow over King’s Landing in Bran’s vision…so I suppose yes. Jon killing Dany? Yep. This was probably George’s third WTF moment as told to D&D. See all those “Last Hero killing beloved” references. Jon/Dany? You think George is going to miss doing those parallelisms with Rhaegar and Lyanna? And it’ll end tragically, ‘cause it’s George. Great Council electing Bran as King? Yep, that’s going to happen (it’s the only way Bran could become King) Tyrion as Hand at the end? I don’t see why not.
My girl out here having never watched the original Fullmetal Alchemist, which decided to go a completely different route because the source material wasn't finished yet.
Took some time away from the show to reflect. I’m so thankful for you GrayArea! I love your videos. I think I allowed myself to get too caught up in ASOIF plot and characters. The show was the show and the books are the books. I spent too much time theorizing how they would be blended for the ending in season 8 and I think that’s where my own disappointment lies. It just wasn’t possible- D and D took the characters and material where they wanted to go after Martin’s source material ended- because they had no other choice. So of course they developed plot lines and gave characters bigger arcs then Martin intended because they were now writing the story as they wanted. I wish they had at least done 10 episodes and tried to develop the ending better but it is what it is. The epic saga started with the imagination and creativity of Martin and his glorious writing so hopefully he gets the chance to finish it. And we will have the complete body of work, both in TV and book.
Waited 10 years just to see cersie getting killed by some bricks...
Yeah that pissed me off. She didn't deserve to get to die with Jamie either.
Preach
I guess youre lucky aman she didnt move two steps to her left then...
@@someguy5858 explain
She died because of the throne. She got crushed by Maegors keep. Also a way to see it :) although in the show it (well, almost everything) was executed badly.
Hold the door is the only thing I'm certain of because I know D&D couldn't come up with that lol.
You think they couldn't come up with Hold The Door but could come up with Dany having a turn to madness, all the way from Season 1, while GRRM was heavily involved with the show? Ok...
Theon & Sansa 〈3 they confirmed GRRM told them about the Hold the Door twist....so yeah pretty sure that's still happening in the book & I doubt D&D would have been able to come up with it on their own. Dany going apeshit on Kings Landing is definitely something they could have done cuz oh yes they did it....😒
@@ieatzebraarah They also said Bran as King came from GRRM and someone told me I can't trust them. Lol. But if they changed something so major how could GRRM say on his own multiple times that the major beats will be the same???
@@totallydifferentvibe No, they didn't come up with Daenerys going mad since season one, they were just copying George's books early on & never understood anything. As soon as they stop copying, they messed everything up, the Daenerys madness decision was made in the spur of the moment for shock without logic.
@@coo3disk1 They did not come up with it all all. GRRM did. That's why the dragon flying over King's Landing and her vision of never sitting the throne but instead going to meet Drogo & her son was so important.
What annoys me the most, are the people trying to defend this story, trying to make sense of what happened in the show with logic, when the writers clearly showed everyone that they didn't use logic nor care.
Which people are defending this story lol...true G.O.T fans will agree the final season was a major disappointment.
coo3disk1 the people who defend it are just idiots who didnt read the lore and don’t have a deep appreciation for the lore
My dad is a Season 8 defender...
At some point I realized he actually put more effort into his explanations then the writers did with The script
Atleast appreciate the show for how long they have been airing in our small screen. The finale was great the ending was amazing and I'm defending it.
@@hua_tetsu_cat It's not the amount of time the show was on TV, it's the significant decrease in quality following Season Four, when Dan and Dave were forced to create their own material.
Divided? At least 80 percent of fandom hates it.
i liked season 8.And a bunch of idiots barking on the internet are not only the ones watching it
@@josephblasko26 So true. Majority of people definitely liked it. And many people find the books a bore. (I don't, but they are too wordy and some plots are utterly pointless)
Theon & Sansa so true! I love the books, and was fine with the show. I’m undecided if I love or like it.
@@tashacrawford770 I'm just in the like it camp. There is room for improvement. But this is their first TV show so I think they did an amazing job with what they had, personally.
@@totallydifferentvibe Pointless plots, are you specifically talking about sansa.
I’m still not over how bad the ending of the series was. It’s just depressing
Same. It was depressing and anti climatic.
I'm starting to see some content about the show just now. I can't get over it, it was too disappointing
I’m okay with the actual plot points, but they needed more time to germinate. Had we two more seasons, I think it would have been great. But they rushed it, badly.
If you’re right about Bran and Sansa, that makes what they do to Jon, if the ending is the same, that much more treacherous.
@@TheIronTiger44 I agree. I'm fine with it but they definitely needed and I think they wanted more time but everyone looked so worn out. The cast and crew looked so over it,except that one guy who I hope is in the prequels.
Dany rules with Stannis as her hand.
Stannis: I want Storms End.
Dany: You already have it.
Stannis: I want it in writing.
@no one he'd do it to spite Robert. "That's for making me another nanna with a pillow."
@no one when confronted with gargantuan dragons he will know his place
@no one the show made stannis into a deluded and naive moron
George Prchal stannis will make better ruler than dany tbh.
@no one Book Stannis will die before even meeting Daenerys in my opinion, I believe he will die in a battle against the Others, because he isn't Azor Ahai.
My favourite line ever on Grayarea
‘Why would Rhaegar call both his sons Aegon? Is he George Foreman?’😂🤣
in the show canon it was Lyanna Stark idea to call him Ageon Targaryen maybe she heard that first Aegon Taragryen from Elia Martell is dead.
@@sophiawilson8696 Even that is a stupid reason.
@@sophiawilson8696 The name is likely not all that important. The show probably meshed certain characters together in Jon. But if Rhaegar's plan was to disinherit Elia's children then naming Jon Aegon as well would be of significance if he wanted the next king to be Aegon.
@Kat Wilson
Agreed. It seems quite likely that Jon's "real name" isn't Aegon at all and they only called him that in the show because they attributed to him the rivalry with Dany which in the books will be fAegon's narrative.
Jons name most likely will be Aemon Targaryen in the books
I need the next book desperately to get the foul taste of the show out of my mouth.
exactly
@What ? your name perfectly summarizes my answer to you.
@What ? you clearly dont understand what "struggling to write" means
how dumb can you be to think he wont release it wtf
@What ? you seem to not know what a writer's block is, and also, he's focusing completely on the book now so another excuse for spreading hate out of the way, it seems like you just want to hate george!
also, this isnt even close to a toxic fanbase, you know nothing about toxic fanbases lol
@What ? you just said D&D are brilliant writers, and then implied s8 is what we deserve because its shit, you contradicted yourself, you're stupid
The Jamie ending in the show made me sooo mad. They'd literally spent 4 seasons giving his character the turnaround just to go "well he just can't help himself and people don't really change". And especially because in the books he's already almost completely binned Cersei off. It just felt like a huge character assassination.
I low-key want Arya and Jaime to fuck lol
I was seriously expecting Jaime to die and Arya takes his face and uses it to kill Cersei.
Not to mention the prophecy in which one brother would kill cersei
@@youshallnotpass2156 Which goes to show that the showrunners had no intention of following that plot line.
@etty77 i heard that GRRM described it as a reversed beauty in the beast. Hence, her nickname. Except here the girl is ugly and kind and the boy is beautiful and a jerk and she changes him and yadayadayada. So I think in the books they will fall in love.
"the books are the books, the show is the show". GRRM has repeatedly said this and he letting people know that they're both different. That I all I need to know.
Yeah one is well written and the other is NOT.
He's also said the major beats are the same.
@John Russell He's stuck for sure. And probably losing enthusiasm too.
Yeah, I just got done binge reading the books now I'm watching the show. I'm only in s3 but I realized 2 seasons ago that these are different stories. The book is like a coloring book and the show writers refuse to color inside the lines.
I believe GRRM is going to keep writing his books the way he intends and just let the show writers go their own way. It will be 2 different stories and the internet will melt in the aftermath. 🔥
No Griff. No Jeyne. No Val or Mance in Rattleshirts clothing. It's a shame, really.
Don't forget they jobbed out Brynden Rivers, aka the Three Eyes Rivers. Some one who actually had an effect on the history of Westeros, brought into the just to not be named then written off instantly.
No fucking epic Stannis northern Campaign... Chad Euron turned to whatever his show version was... The list goes on and on.
@@bobafett9348 what they did to Euron was just . . . Ugh. From Antichrist to "finger in the bum"
As a person named Jane, I am personally offended at the lack of both Jeyne Westerling and Jeyne Poole in the show :p
@@neenster69 I know, they could have so easily included Patchface! I know, oh oh oh
The show stopped becoming the books when in s1 Jayne pool was never introduced, having severe consequences seasons later
Ryan Elliott EXACTLY💯💯💯
Oh, but their dear sweet Sofie got the plot line, how else was anybody going to like her?
This is true, but Jeyne is a shadowy character in the books. She has no importance in her own right. Despite being Sansa's best friend, she hardly features even in Sansa's chapters, except for after the massacre of the Stark household. She then gets removed from KL until she is wheeled out as fake Arya, but even then how much do we learn about her? Very little if anything. How would you go about creating the character in the show? Does she remain a background extra, or do you expand her?
Princess Shireen was greatly expanded in the show, as the showrunners made her Stannis' conscience/essential goodness, and it worked. I'm not sure such possibilities exist for Jeyne.
Wasn't introduced, but was in the show. She's the girl that was always next to Sansa in episode 1...can't remember if she went down to KL in the show or not, but she was definitely sitting next to Sansa at the feast in Winterfell
John Vazakas I don’t think they showed her after Winterfell, and they never focused on her father, who was one of Ned’s right hand men.
""Go if you wish, Ser. I will not detain you, I will not detain any of you. I may not be able to cure them, but I can show them that their mother cares." This is one of Danys last chapters in dance, and it shows her most defining character aspect. Her love for the small folk. There is not a scenario that exists in which she will intentionally roast them.
Lane Stapp 💯💯💯
Dany dominated TV more than any character I have ever seen, she may be the best fictional character of all time, just my opinion. Iconic complex and extremely controversial, if Grrm doesn't write Daenery targaryen correctly his books will end as badly as the show. Congratulations to Emilia for an Emmy nomination
Exactly! There needed to be at least a full season to develop her from being a good hearted idealist to a war criminal murdering children. The scenario presented in the show was so ridiculous it was insulting to us fans.
@@zechrojas2202 What ever happen to all the hints of child birth for Dany in season 7, it's almost like dumb and dumber went for the complete shock value ending last minute and it bombed big time
@@bossmode3769 part of me thinks that dumb and dumber purposely didn't develope her madness solely for the sudden shock value. I'm sure they thought they were geniuses.
Pretty sure that this is not a secret. Theres a reason that george is "suddenly" only working on ASOIAF.
It's because he wanted to watch these idiots who destroyed his story crash and burn, then give us the real story.
@El-ahrairah
The moment they didnt resurrect lady stoneheart, they were on his shitlist.
@@billhicks6449 ya right.The last two bokks are poor in quality
bill hicks no he understands money now, nor writing and people need to stop putting him on a pedestal. He’s no Tolkien, and since it’s been so long since something decent has come out of him, he’s not a writer as in books. He can give you a Hollywood script, but nothing else.
but GRRM gave them the ending. Sure they went about it differently but ultimately it is his ending.
Yes that’s true
If Cersei blows up the Sept of Balor with the High Sept (Sparrow) inside in the books, I don't think the Small Folk will just take it and not riot.
She would be facing the resurgence of the Faith Militant and all the troubles that plagued Maegor's reign.
The main thing I hate is what they did to House Targaryen and Starks. I don't mind the Starks being on top but I don't like how they did Daenerys because she came North and helped defeat the dead before she continued fighting Cersei and the fact that they had Sansa and Arya against her just because she wasn't a stark really irritated me. First of all outside of the four of them nobody is one of them so that was stupid as hell to say. Then Jon's heritage being used for people to conspire and undermine the two of them pissed me off too because they both pulled their forces together and helped save the world from the white walkers, why would people think the more peaceful solution would be to pit the two against one another instead of joining houses and yes call me corny but c'mon every one else got a happy ending and Jon's heritage got no pay off anyway. In season 6 finale Tyrion advised Daenerys to leave Daario in mereen because once she got to Westeros she'd need to marry someone. But that didn't even brought up this season well Tyrion suggested it to Varys but Varys was against it only because the plot needed him to be to get the ending they got.
If they had married, everything would have been solved. But no, They needed to do shitty mad queen plot.
In the end Sansa turned out to be an ungreatful racist
@@bethaofhouseblackwood234 Worse, she betrayed her brother even though she knew there might be people killed, she was willing for that so she could be queen. I think she expected the IT and the North was second best. I wonder if she'll even enjoy it. Luckily for her, she has no conscience.
Sansa, not Arya. Arya did not trust Dany but until she KNEW Dany was guilty of something, she wasn't going to hurt her. She was grateful for her help and told Jon he was right to do what he had to get it. Sansa spread the secret that led to so many deaths in KL.
I believe it was Davos who suggest it.
After giving myself some time to think, the one thing I realized I will never get behind is Dany going mad. We have a perfect character in the books for that, with her paranoia growing stronger and stronger with each passing day, Cersei should be the one to go "mad" after another bunch of deaths in King's Landing including Marcella in Dorne
More than one character can go the same route, in fact GRRM does that over and over and over.
Even if Cersei is gooing fully nuts I highly doubt she will have any authorithy whatsoever in the books again.The walk of shame and the result of it is much more realistic portayed in the books.I definitly can not see her as queen or even in charge again.
@@wishingfortwins I want sansa go mad lol.
@@saivamshi7740 I don't think Sansa will go mad, just because she's somewhat removed from most of the major plots right now (in my opinion). We'll have to see how things develop. I wouldn't be surprised if she has trouble with her multiple identities, though. If that's the kind of mad you mean :)
@@wishingfortwins that's the thing, it took years for even the mad king to go fully nuts with betrayal and 6 months of imprisonment being the final straw, before that he lost few babies, cersei is on a similar path, Dany isn't
No matter how people feel about the last season, we all have to agree on a single concept.
They did Cersei and Jaime dirty.
they did EVERYONE dirty.
Daenerys deserves better
@Todd Starbuck I understand, you suffer from schizophrenia, you have a problem with decoding reality
Remember when she wanted to burn Kingslanding with her then 3 dragons in season 7 and Jon had to talk her out of it? Does she really deserve better or was she finally embracing who she really is?
@Todd Starbuck Characters throughout the series have sacked cities and murdered innocents all over the place. Robb ordered his men to rape and pillage their way through the Westerlands in order to "pay Tywin Lannister back with his own coin."
That kind of standard medieval warfare is totally different than the decision to murder an entire city of innocent people for no reason after the city has surrendered.
The fact that the show makes Dany a mass murdering psychopath proves absolutely nothing. The show has completely misrepresented every single character in the series - why should we assume it's representing Dany in a fair way now when it never has before?
Just because some plot points are going to be similar doesn't mean the characterization will be. Every single character in the show has been twisted into some funhouse version of themselves so D&D can validate their own moral judgements about the book characters.
Take Tyrion for example:
In the books, Tyrion pledges to kill Jaime, Cersei, and Tywin. He murders Shae - it's not self defense. He goes to Essos and rapes a few slaves, hoping that he can make them hate him as much as he hates himself. He convinces Aegon to sail his army to Westeros because he wants to see the world burn down. Then he goes to Dany, intent on doing the same thing, and he asks that in return for his service he should be allowed to rape and kill his sister.
In the show, he's a funny dwarf. He goes to Dany because gee-whiz he just wants to make the world a better place - isn't that great? He drinks and he knows things and makes cock jokes to Varys! LOL!!
I'm sure some plot points are going to be similar, but the characterization is comically off-mark.
Dany's not going to be a villain in the books any more than Tyrion is going to be a hero. George writes grey characters, but D&D have simplified everyone down to cardboard "good guys" and "bad guys" based on which ones they like and dislike.
@@jinx5005 She said she wanted to burn the Red Keep along with Cersei when she should have done so. She never said she wanted to burn the entirety of King's Landing.
@@jinx5005 No I don't remember Dany wanting to burn down Kingslanding, but I do remember Dany wanting to burn down the red keep with cersei in it. Another one who struggles with memory issues, jons just a hypocrite who only uses war when it suits him
Personally I don’t think Arya will wipe out House Frey, I think Lady Stoneheart will. But yeah I agree that Sansa being Queen of the only independent kingdom makes no sense when she has the strongest tie to the King of the Iron Throne. She should be the strongest loyalist to the crown. And I would like to see Bran rule from Winterfell
I actually think arya will end up killing lady stoneheart.
Nayr The Slayer that would be interesting for sure!
No, it makes sense why she asked for independence. Bran isn't immortal, he won't be King forever. Therefore _not_ asking for independence would have been foolish. Once Bran dies and the next king is selected (because now their rulers are _chosen_ ), whoever rules next, once Bran and Sansa are dead and gone, _may_ not be a very good ruler, and the North ends up stuck under the thumb of a tyrant once more.
Not if in the books Jane Pool will be "Sansa" and queen of the North ;o)
@@zoefezius6615 People would really riot then 😂
I hope Martin completely changes his ending, the Game of thrones ending was a disaster
Child of Ice and fire I’m wondering if it is only a disaster because it was rushed? And it didn’t feel earned!
@@GrayArea D&D clearly have there favourite characters and gave them favourable storys and favourable endings. Weiss favourite character is sansa, so I guessing the line, "She's the smartest person I know" came from Weiss.
@@GrayArea I think it was a disaster because it was rushed.The entire season was rushed and totally destroyed years of hitherto what was the best thing in cinema history.Nothing made sense anymore
I definitely think it's the rush. I personally think D&D did their best to stick to GRRM's outline and that's part of the problem. So IMO most major things including majority of the character's endings will be the same. Jorah's ending is questionable because they supposedly considered leaving him alive after The Long Night. I think we are going to see a much darker side of EVERYONE during Winds of Winter based on something GRRM said.
@@childoficeandfire7986 Sansa is awesome. I thought you Dany fans would have been over this by now.
I have never felt so disappointed and betrayed in my entire life.
Oh sweet Summerchild.
How could she be his favourite character, when he ignored her book development, to keep regressing her to victim-status?
The whole Ramsay/ Sansa thing was just a repeat of Joffrey/ Sansa, on steroids - in the books Sansa’s developing a political mind, & she’s gained a stronger understanding of what’s going on behind the scenes in the Vale.
Exactly. What an absurd thing to say.
Honestly, their screwed up ideas and interests when it comes to character development is disgusting. I don't know why D&D find sexual assault and abuse so fascinating. That's why it's annoying Sansa was turned into a victim in the show. They think rape and abuse is what makes a person stronger (when that's actually backwards logic). Cersai and Sansa were always their favorites. That was never a secret. They stated that on multiple occasions. Just look it up who is Benioff's favorite character. It's not an absurd thing to say it's a fact. Everyone remember this interview:
"We really wanted Sansa to play a major part this season," Benioff said. "If we were going to stay absolutely faithful to the book, it was going to be very hard to do that. There was a subplot we loved the from books, but it used a character that's not in the show."
Can we just knowledge that fact the D&D are just really messed up when it comes to their favorites?
c_vee12
But it comes from a false premise, doesn’t it?
You can’t really say ‘this’ character is your favourite- but you then ignore all their plot lines & development after a certain point, just to largely keep where they were.
It wouldn’t have ‘been very hard to do’- _had_ they been halfway decent writers; people craft composite characters, it is a thing that gets done in historical fiction & adaptations, to help keep a cast from getting unwieldy- I get that, really - but it *has* to make sense; Gendry/ Edric makes sense (mostly) - Jon/ fAegon didn’t, nor did Sansa/ fArya (Jeyne Poole).
There were ways it _could_ have, but they had to stick to their simplistic, reductive & nonsensical ideas....
OcarinaSapph1r3 -24
Why are you so insistent that this is false speculation? No, we‘re _not_ making this up!! It is the truth!! So did you also ignore the fact they gave Sansa her own needle (her necklace)? Gave her Jon’s speech about fighting for Winterfell? Gave her Arya’s ‘the lone wolf dies but the pack survives’ quote? Say what you want about plot lines and character development, it’s _still_ not going to change the fact that Sansa is their favorite.
Just go on ANY Sansa stan blog, they also defend D&D’s writing. There is no false premise, I’m not ignoring anything, it’s just a damn fact. I truly do not understand why you are reaching so far to not believe Sansa is their favorite. There is no if, ands, or buts. Claiming Sansa is anything but their favorite is just making false theories and scenarios in your head.
c_vee12
I don’t get what you think I’m trying to say.
The _last_ thing I would do is defend those hacks- if that’s what you think I’m doing...
I personally think them claiming Sansa is their favourite character is BS; they also loved Tyrion- so much so, that they turned him into a moron who did little bar crack stupid jokes & fail to read his own sister’s intentions, who was described previously by him, as pretty easy to work out... yet, for all this failure (that would have killed anyone else in an earlier season, no matter how powerful, or important)- he’s somehow able - while a prisoner, no less - to manipulate who becomes the next ruler, **&** be named their right-hand man (the ruler in question then gives him the most powerful & important position- essentially making him de-facto king) - this immensely unearned ending made plenty of people dislike Tyrion- who’d been a fan-favourite from the start.
Had they actually felt that way about Sansa (or really, any of their so-called ‘favourites’), they would have crafted a much better storyline for her- so yes, plot lines & character development **do** matter - because this lazy, reductive, & ultimately nonsensical endgame is why this show ended as a joke.
Unlike some people, I’m not a Sansa-hater - I’m not a hater, or a ‘stan’ of anyone... I just wanted a good ending to the show so many of us had invested so much time, in seeing unfold- & I was immensely disappointed...
I keep harping on this but that “West of Westeros” bullsh*t made me wanna pull my locs out. Why didn’t she just ask the world encyclopedia that replaced her brother?? Arya never said anything like that in the books. Also she is in love, love with Gendry.. I don’t see her just curving him like that either when all she truly wants in revenge and then stability. But don’t mind me, I’m an Arya fan girl.
Jamilah Hardiman 😂😂😂😂😂 that west of Westeros shit was soooo cliche!
I hate her fate in the show but I also hope she doesn't end up with Gendry either. I simply can't disregard George's earliest seeds when it comes to Arya and Jon. In my opinion, their fates are tied together.
I think D&D felt that they had to make Sansa queen because they made her a serial rape victim. Also, TV audiences expect someone who looks like that to be queen. I hope in the books Jon or ARya gets Winterfell/
@@LL-xp2jb If you look at the name of the wolves it shows their destiny IMO.
Ghost - Jon will go away/be driven away.
Grey wind - Gone with the wind, words are nothing
Shaggy Dog - A pointless story
Nymeria - Arya will be traveling
Lady - Sansa will be the Lady of something (it could be Winterfell, the Vale, possibly both), however the lady part is somewhat dead
Summer - After the Winds of Winter a new spring will be ushered in, and a long summer of Bran's rule will follow
GRRM has said just look to the beginning to find the end.
@@LL-xp2jb I think Sansa will become Queen or Lady of Winterfell at some point in the books if not the end. It's what her current story and character arc is building up to at this moment, now that she's being tutored by Littlefinger in the Vale about politics and playing the game. She's going only going to move up now that shes been the victim for so long. I dont know about Arya, but I would've loved to see her at her sister's side in the TV show because Sansa is ruling all alone. So much for "the pack" staying together. Lmao
I just need Dany redemption in the books.
I think it is a stretch that something major like that would be different in the books. It may happen differently though.
Instead of her just randomly becoming evil, I'm sure the book version will have her be a tragic hero with a more gradual fall from grace.
@@ArmorFrogEntertainment I'd be ok with this.
Knowing GRRM - don't hope for a happy ending
@@ArmorFrogEntertainment thats already Stannis storyline
If George would stop worrying about prequels and get the damn books done.....🙃🙃🙃
Those are part of history that is constantly repeating. He wants to show us parts of circle so we can see whole picture. We are not awere yet of how genious and mega project this is. John Snow character will develop more and more till he becomes King that Arya sneaks on in Long Night and kill.
Gray, this video makes me want to finally start reading the books I've been avoiding reading because of that trash show ending. I just don't want to fall In love with the books and in the end House Targaryen and it's Queen is annihilated. You're making a great case for me to chance it though.
So true. I started watching got because of dany. Her endnding was so pathetic that it killed my passion for asoiaf universe .
The book as a whole is darker than shown on TV. It's good to read it and come to your own conclusions. Some of the changes D&D made I really appreciated, the book can get depressing at certain points.
Oh dany most likely will go mad queen in the books but its not gonna be any way near as illogical and stupid as it was in the show
@@akeelbrown7675 unlikely*
@@aryasuperstark9599 no
I definitely hated season 8. The writing was horrible and sloppy. The story itself was plot driven and not character driven. A lot of our main characters were dumbed down just to move the plot forward to get to the ending. The long night was the most disappointing it should've been global around Westeros not just ending in one damn night. I'm pissed that Tyrion made it put alive because it's unrealistic that his dwarf ass made it but I know he's either Dan or Dave's favorite so he made it put like a bandit, that shit was fan service as well. When you think about it if any other character was as dumb af as Tyrion they would've died but nope not the big failure as a person Tyrion.
I can't wrap my mind around people defending it. It was objectively bad writing by any measurement.
There was no way that Tyrion would survive, just like the infinity number of lifes that Arya had or Sam... or even Jon, that was almost killed for Viserion and then "forgiven" by a DRAGON! a Dragon who understood that THE THRONE had kill her mother and not Jon some say.. It was just awful
Tyrion was dumbed down so much, Sansa was smarter than he. That was nuts.
@@franfresa Yeah Tyrion and Jon survivng what they survived isn't realistic and true to Game of Thrones even if they're going to survive til the end in the books then they shouldn't have put them in situations where they should've died.
@Thetasteofhoney1 lol I feel you, I felt like I wasted my time watching this series
I knew the show was in trouble when they omitted Jaime's reveal to Tyrion about what really happened with Tysha. Not only is that reveal heart breaking but the rage he felt is the very thing that motivates Tyrion to turn around from his escape, and climb up to Tywin's quarters to confront him. He finds Shae naked with Tywin's necklace which adds fuel to the fire, and that's when he decides to kill his Father. Also, he and Jaime leave on bad terms with Tyrion slapping him and threatening to kill him the next time they meet. In the show Tyrion and Jaime part ways as beasties. Then Tyrion just turns around for seemingly no reason whatsoever. He is literally in the middle of escaping a death sentence and just decides to go see his dad which should have been suicide.
I don’t think Arya will sail west, nor do I think Gendry will be lord of storm’s end, I think it will Edric Storm.
Yeah and is Edrick Storm even in the show?
No, they merged him with Gendry
@@tayathornhill715 thanks
agreed, their story is tied to th Brotherhood Without Banners, and I think Arya will meet Lady Stoneheart when she comes back to Westeros, might give her the gift of mercy, also she might become the next leader of the Brotherhoos Without Banners, makeing them good again, caring for the smallfolk and stuff. And yes, no way is book Gendry is becoming a lord, he'll hate it, his brother EDRIC STORM is a much better candidate for that shit!
Honestly I don't think Tyrion is going to be hand of the king at the end.... he may, but is a long shot.. he is hated in westeros and is going to arrive with Daenerys and three dragons.
Vanessa Amesty
That was indeed about as sensible as making Bronn Master of Coin.
who cares about tyrion
Sansa becoming the Queen in the North or the Lady of Winterfell could make sense though. At the start of the books, all she wants to is to leave Winterfell, go South and marry a pretty knight or prince or whatever. She actively rejects her Northern heritage -even if she does not realise it at 13. Now that all of these fantasies and naive dreams of hers only turn out to bring misery...having her completely turn her back on them and realising who she truly is makes sense. A commitment to celibacy by becoming the Queen in the North would be an interesting character development.
•Bronn lord of Highgarden? Don’t think so!
•The WWs being so ridiculously and easily defeated? Nope!!!
The WWs and children of the forest history and lore being so poorly addressed? Naaah!
•The Martells....oh the Martells....
•Daenerys snapping all of sudden? Definitely not!!!
So disappointed with how the show ended....even if it was always suppose to end like that...things just felt so rushed and wrong. 13 episodes for the last two seasons was definitely not enough!!! And that’s on them!!!
Bronn as lord of Highgarden REALLY irked me, sure, give him a castle but not the wealthiest one in all of Westeros
I don't think it'll happen in Winds of Winter, probably in Dreams of Spring but I do think Jon and Daenerys will meet and form some type of relationship I don't know if it'll be as friends or something more but it will play some significance in the overall story. If any Targaryen was going to burn down King's Landing my money is on Young Griff. Cersei though is a more likely suspect.
Thank you for remembering Griff
It will be a dragon, remember the scene with the dragon flying over King's Landing all the way back in Season 1 was designated as one of the most important.
@@wishingfortwins well that was the show. If there is something similar that happens in the books then the dragon could be more metaphorical
You're all forgeting another big force on the game: The fucking Crow's Eye!!
@@luciamota1249 true
It’s funny how you accept that Bran will be king in the end of both versions but still don’t think the Mad Queen will be a thing.
I’m sorry to say this because i can’t say I liked it but it is going to happen but it will just make a lot more sense. Sorry but Dany will go mad just in a more relatable way!
I still strongly dislike Sansa, having her be queen of the north seemed ridiculous given that NONE OF THE OTHER KINGDOMS demanded their Independence.
Your absolutely right
yes, sansa's shady AF, i wasnt too happy for her despite her sufferings
@agnat86 the funniest thing that Yara swallowed Arya's threat. True Yara would have drawn out her sword and taught Arya to respect other warrior women (though Arya was out of character too).
lol
@@ingabaranauskiene5889 yeah because defending her family is out of character for her....
If I recall correctly, GRRM's & D&D's most recent statements regarding the book vs show ending was that the primary characters' destinations would be the same, but the path getting their would be different. So Jaimie & Cersei die together in both versions, but the book version could be Jaimie killing Cersei as the Valonqar, while the show is assassination by brick. Sansa may end up Lady of Winterfell and Warden of the North for King Bran--not the same title, but in terms of a rough outline comparison, she's still leader of the North.
So basically, the epilogue pieces of GoT will supposedly match the books--and only for the primary characters. (Although Arya turning into Christopher Columbus makes no sense to me. Maybe GRRM's outline just says "Arya doesn't marry Gendry and become a Lady... or Arya wargs into Nymeria and D&D said "nope, we already blew our CGI budget" lol)
"assassination by brick"
Lmao
The problem is how long GRRM has taken to write the end of the story. He can’t complain about things when he’s been dragging his feet. Yes I know that it’s his prerogative, but if his publishers were holding him to a deadline then we’d have a closure to this story that aligned with his vision…
9:58 In the books all the Stark children + Jon are skinchangers.
1. Bran obviously is Bran.
2. Little Rickon claims to have "seen" Ned Stark in the Winterfell crypts. Plus, his wolf Shaggydog has green eyes, suggesting greensight.
3. Jon has wolf dreams while in the Frostfangs.
4. Arya, through Nymeria, locates Catelyn Stark's body in the Trident.
5. Robb likely saw the secret path around the Golden Tooth in a wolf-dream.
6. Even Sansa, the first to lose her wolf, has bird dreams while she's in the Eyrie.
TLDR: It's still *technically* possible for Sansa's storyline to turn supernatural. I personally doubt that will happen, but there you go.
Reading the book and knowing Bran be king is interesting. All his early chapters before his encounter with Jaime. The way he describes ruling winterfell when climbing and Ned wants him to come with at kings landing to learn to rule and marry . Really can see GRRM breadcrumbs
Idc what will change in the books as long as you stay with us, our queen
L G imaaa be hereeee! ❤️❤️❤️
@@GrayArea didn't expect an answer, made my day, thx a lot:D hello from one of your sweet summer Children in austria :)
I’m so glad you make these videos so I can show my friends and family! I’m literally the only in my family that had read 4 of the main books from the ASOIAF and all the companion books and I always agree with you and your guests sometimes as well.
Jon and Daenerys will never happen in the books, I’m sure.
Also George won’t forget about Quaithee and Dario.
It will tho its kinda their story "a song of ice and fire" daario is a side character
I mean I'm sure they're going to meet obviously and maybe something will happen, but frankly I think they each have far bigger things to worry about! And I always believed ice and fire stood for the 'prophecy'/Jon Snow himself considering who his parents are.
@@italianodblaugrana3842 If ice and fire must mate then she'd have better luck trying to fuck Bran.
Jon is already ice and fire.
@@gerardjagroo doesn't mean he and Dany won't get together in the books they're paralleled to each other every step of the way there's a part in the books where in Dany's visions she sees a winter rose grow on a wall of ice and that it "filled the air with sweetness"
Unpopular Theory
Season 8 was just a dream. HBO will shock the world by announcing Season 9 after the final installment of GRRM's A Dream Of Spring.
I genuinely don't know if he'll even finish ADOS
It doesn't make sense to me why Sansa would be have to be queen in the north if Bran is king. Why would the north need to be independent if a STARK is already ruling the rest of the kingdoms?
The North needs to be independent because Bran can die at any given moment. It is easier to secure its independence while he is King.
In the first episode Sansa wheedled her mother sayingqueen is all she ever wanted, Please,please. Nothing less will do in her mind. She's gonna screw up one way or the other and he'll get it back. He plays the LONGEST game.
The fantasy element will make a strong difference in the books I believe, the show was more interested in the 'game of thrones' after all
Watching seasons 5 and beyond are like watching a toddler recreate the Mona Lisa with crayons from memory. I can see what are book notes and what is DnD throwing shit at a wall
Fandom was not divided….season 8 was universally hated
It makes no sense for Bran the Bland to give independence to the North and Sansa as their queen. He said over and over again that he's not Bran anymore, he's the 3Eyed Raven. When he returns to Winterfell and reunites with his siblings he is emotionless. So why would an all seeing 3 Eyed Raven decide Sansa was deserving and fit to rule the North yet let Jon be banished. Seems more like he didn't see anything that's been going on, not the other way around. Great start on your rule Bran Bran.
Sansa becoming Queen in the North didn't make sense to me because she said the starks will never bend the knee again yet Bran is a Stark so why become a separate kingdom the writing made georges ending look shit
Lol so George thinks surveilance state is better than just your average monarchy. OK George 😂
the boomerism is strong in this one
Damn! I never thought about it that way. Well done, well done! Best comment i've read on the TH-cam all week!
China loves him.
Yes I had that thought too. And yet in the end they were looking for a Master of Whisperers....
Maybe George is merely exchanging one form of government with a potentially darker form again. He’s never promised a happy ending.
@@sooziemc8324 Remember Bran does not automatically see all. He can "poke further" and get to the bottom of things but if he doesn't have a reason to, he generally doesn't. So a Master of Whisperers would still be of aid to him. The Master of Whisperers also does politics with other people, not just the king. It's like a middleman.
I'm not gonna be a smug and say the reason that folks liked the last 4 seasons is because they didnt read the books. However, the majority of people who read it will definitely notice a huge difference of someone moving the characters as pieces of a chessgame in order to tell an interesting and surprising story, whereas the other is just a rushed and a bit uninspired adaption of what is (to me) a masterpiece. I hope by this that more people will pick those giant monsters of books and give them a try.
The show started going downhill after season 5.... but season 8 is unacceptable...they ruined the story
I really do hope Arya takes out Walder Frey and all his heirs in the same way. The speech she gave as Walder Frey was awesome! I was annoyed that they only referred to what happens to House Frey one time in the show (Jaime to Cersei). It seems like people would talk about that, especially the Northerners. Lord Manderly would be proud!
I worry about Brienne’s fate in the books. Lady Stoneheart sent her to retrieve Jaime.
Kelly Fortune
And she did. She has sacrificed her honour to save Pod (or so it seems). Interesting to see where the characters go after this.
That was the problem with JK Rowling, the architect approach. She made up her mind before she wrote the book that Hermione would end up with Ron. But she never wrote a love story for Hermione and Ron. She did write a great love story for Harry and Hermione, but no she refused to go where her own story was taking her.
It actually was a bad idea for Martin to give D&D an ending that was not well thought out and could change. I hope Danny going mad is as discarded as Sansa's child with Joffrey.
if you read the original outline he submitted to publisher, the story barely resembles what he wrote after
@@krisp5735 what was his original outline?
@@aryanemarques2089 it was way different, there was a love triangle with Arya, Jon, and Tyrion !!! Look it up, won't let me link here
We'll never get a dream of spring. At the rate GRRM writes... He'll be gone before it's done. He isn't a healthy spring chicken anymore. 😔
You're right
He's written himself into a box. At least the show made an attempt to untangle it. He's stuck, stuck, stuck. That's why it's more fun for him to do the gazillion side projects he's working on. They don't have that tangled web.
I dunno, A Dream of Spring might be easier to write than Winds of Winter since that book will be concluding everything.
@@TurquoiseStar17 The conclusion will take him longer. Since he made fun of Tolkien he's really put pressure on himself to deliver.
Let D&D write the two last books that will be just one book or half maybe omg what a disaster so no lets hope GRRM finish them but i dont think it will happen :/
The Aegon, Euron, and Mance plotlines pretty much ensure that the books will be different.
Well considering Grrm hasn't done even given a release date for the next book I think it's safe to say he'll die before he completes it.
Clearest indication that Dany could end completely different is with Tyrion. Yes Shae dies in both the show and books by Tyrions hand but in the show it's self defense, in the books it's murder. If Tyrion, one of the main characters and one of GRRMs faves, can be changed from someone who rapes slaves in the books to a cheerful moral compass in the show, there are no limits to how many things could've been changed in a contextual way.
Ugh don't remind me 😭
Absolutely. Tyrion is a villain, GRRM himself labeled him so. He will be the devil on Daenerys' shoulder, not socialist wino as D&D have made his character to be.
@@Harahvaiti Definitely. He'll be the one convincing her of more brutal acts. I think her tragedy will be the death of her identity in the quest for the throne.
You: 0:27 - 0:35
Fullmetal Alchemist(2003): Am I a joke to you:
I thought Bran was supposed go live in the roots of tree
I just want to let you know, that you are such a great reader! Whenever you read quotes from the book, I melt into admiration. Martin has such a pleasing style of writing! And you do it a great service with your reading!
plot twist: George already finished writing the books and is just waiting until the hype dies down to release them
Why would Bran even wanna be in KL? is a very good question.
It was built by the Targaryens after they conquered the land, there are no first men, no weirwoods, no other Starks
Last season was trash. Slap in the face to all the fans and George himself. Rush rush rush, blah blah blah. Just awful, ruined one of the greatest television shows/adaptions PERIOD.
I think Jon’s real name is Jaehaerys. I think he was Aegon’s favorite king.
What? Aegon's favorite king? Which Aegon?
You think Rhaegar ?
I hope his name turns out to be prick
I hope it's Aemon, like the Night Watch's maester.
I’m going to have to agree. I think we all know this deep down already, we just needed to hear you say it.🤩👍🏼
Also, what gets me is how much the show paralleled Cersei with Aerys, only to make Daenerys the 'mad queen'. What? The wildfire. The torture leading to madness, paranoia, cruelty, and revenge. Chaining a mother just out of reach of her daughter and making one watch the other die. Torture being a turn on and forcing someone to have sex afterward... Cersei is and was the mad queen. What was the point of all of that? I'm not happy about the way mental illness in the show was portrayed. Daenerys succumbed to madness because it's "in her blood", yet Jon is safe. Daenerys, who showed no signs of schizophrenia or madness, suddenly succumbs to this genetic inheritance? Come on.
Not to mention, Aerys went mad over many years - Daenerys snapped in seconds. That's not how mental illness works. And if Daenerys has schizophrenia, too, well that condition doesn't automatically make someone cruel, vengeful, or homicidal. This is a terrible message for SO many reasons - For those with mental illnesss, for women in power, for women who were victims of abuse, for aspiring revolutionaries... everyone. (And don't get me started on Varys contributing to Aerys' madness, even picking out victims for him and then acting like he has the moral high ground - and there's no WAY Tyrion is going to become the voice of reason).
I read a comment on Tumblr that broke my heart. It said something like "No American writer will ever write a true literary hero who screams 'kill the masters!'" Like, fuck. As an American, that hurts. By the end of the series, I'm told I'm supposed to think this woman was 'evil all along' because she busted the paradox of tolerance wide open. No.
For as apathetic as season eight made me about the show, the books, and the prequels... There's one thing left I give a shit about, and that's Daenerys. What they did to her was a fucking abomination on so many levels and mark my words, it will not age well at all.
Grrm woke up one day from his ivory tower and realized that he was attacking the very people that gave him his prestige privilege and wealth. Grrm decided to defend the masters and all forms of upstart and revolutionary tendencies in that very moment. Being a good person and attacking the establishment and improving the lives of millions is bad, a woman in power must be scrutinised no matter what good she has done in the past. As for genetics, Dany was always going to fail no matter what, she is the daughter of the mad king, she can never get away from her blood curse, what kind of uninspiring BS is that for people who have terrible parents. You missed out on the clear racism of the show, a group of brown Savages Lead by a white crazy woman , rightly rejected by a Caucasian white continent after she saves them all from certain annihilation. Dany and her foreigners must be rejected at all costs, the xenophobic north rightly won there independence and rejected these foreigners. Female empowerment must be checked, the raise of what Danys represents scares the life out of white insecure males, George must not upset them. In the end the destruction of Daenery targaryen was a political move by Grrm , he is now going for this ultimate power corruption BS narrative with his main female protagonist. Well done Grrm you bitter old fool, just go and destroy the dream of every girl out there , who was inspired by Daenerys Targaryen character for over 20 years. I used to be a stark stan, not any more, the only character I care about now is Daenery, she is so much more than this stupid power corruption move by George
@@aryasuperstark9599 I loved both the Starks and Daenerys without any conflict about it. I genuinely thought the point of this series was that everyone would HAVE to work together despite their differences for the greater good (I mean, HBO sold me fucking shirts with Stark/Targ logos on it FFS). And from what I saw, the Starks had no reason not to trust the woman who did nothing to them or their family and everything to save it without anything in return. All of that 'the child shall not be punished for the crimes of their father' went nowhere.
I see you're an Arya fan, too. I really REALLY thought that the young girl who admired fucking Nymeria (a foreign warrior queen) and said the line "He killed the slave? He should have killed the masters!" might actually admire Daenerys.
Speaking of things that went nowhere - even though I hadn't touched on the racism in season eight in my initial post, it definitely wasn't lost on me. In the earlier episodes, I thought that the way they framed the racism that Missandei and Grey Worm encountered... that they might make commentary on it. Say, after seeing these foreigners die en masse for them, that the northerners maaaybe might start thinking of them as people? Nah. Instead, they get rewarded for their homogeny and xenophobia - despite being of First Men blood (the original foreigners). It's just like redundant American racism.
You might be right about GRRM and the ivory tower. If you are, then he's not the man I thought he was. I'm a pacifist, too, and I hate war and violence, but it never stopped me from rooting for Daenerys. Too much tolerance toward the intolerant and the intolerant take over. Peter Dinklage compared her actions in episode five to the WWII nuclear bombings, which are not comparable in the slightest considering: Japan was the aggressor, Roosevelt and Truman didn't go mad, Americans used the bombs as a last resort because Japan wouldn't surrender (no bells!), the US warned the civilians of the attack and gave them enough time to evacuate, the US killed about 10-20% of what Daenerys killed, and when Japan surrendered, no more attacks were carried out. When the anti-war message is exaggerated and bastardized to that degree, it falls flat. Way flat.
I once did the math on 'Targaryen Madness'. I skimmed through literally every Targaryen we know of in canon. Depending on whether you decide to classify suicide or alcoholism as 'madness', Targaryen madness ranges from 6-9%. Two unrelated people on earth are at a base chance of 3% 'madness' (or mental illness), with cousins bumping that number up to 6% - so Targaryens are no more likely than earth cousins to be 'mad' (but it should be mentioned that several 'mad' Targaryens weren't even harmful (Baelor the Blessed and Prince Rhaegal). Aside from that, there might be a chance Daenerys isn't even related to Aerys (as the lemon tree mystery might imply).
@@daisyvision To put it mildly, it's wasnt Daenery targaryen character which changed, it's was the position and outlook of Grrm. Dany was originally one of grrm 5 survivors along with Tyrion Jon Arya and bran, something changed along the way. I believe that Grrm was influenced by the war in Iraq, the meereenese knot in a dance of dragons mirrored Americas occupation of Iraq and then his outdated power corrupts message was born. Truth is Daenerys messenge is so much more than that, She is a character who was able to deal with homelessness , physical and mental abuse, rape, she was an idealistic woman well ahead of her time and fought for the oppressed and downtrodden. Now she has been reduced to a crazy genocidal maniac , what kind of messege is that for the young people of today who want to do good in this world?. Most people blame D&D for this joke of a show and Grrm has gotten away Scott free. Grrm should be scrutinised just as vigorously as dumb and dumber.
@@daisyvision I was an Arya fan, but the bitterness of the last two season have left me questioning if I have any feelings for Arya at all or any of the starks. Arya murdered a whole house most of whom where innocent and she absolutely loved it, we are meant to believe that the crimes of Dany against the masters and tyrell is some kind of foreshadowing for her Madness. I don't remember there being a debate whether Arya was justified in taking revenge against a whole house. Truth is the double standards towards Dany is laughable, apparently her violence is bad and the violence of others is fine and we must root for Arya in that moment. Tyrion speech to Jon about Daenery was the biggest insult on the show, as if to try and convince us she was bad all along.
Everyone: I hate that bran became king, I wanna read the real ending when someone relevant takes the throne
Me: I love that bran became a king. I hated how. So i wanna read the books that actually justify him ruling over everyone
But whatever happens I am sure it ll be epic
The funny thing is that Bran king is the real ending.
There's no way the Others, those who hold a mirror to mankind's cruelty, ignorance and arrogance, those that are the embodiment of not only winter, not only climate change but death itself, the ones that show mankind that no matter what lands, titles, castles you hold power over, there's no escaping death, the ones who are the reason for the words "winter is coming" "the night is dark and full of terrors" and to some extent "all men must die" will be killed of in such a shitty way. IF George plans to treat the white walkers like this then im done with a song of ice and fire. The show essentially reduced the story to, in the words of mauler "a song of ice and fire without the fucking ice" there's no way the catharsis of this amazing series is going to come down to who gets to sit on the metal fucking chair. A song of ice and fire has not only never been about that but openly expresses over and over again within the story just how detrimental to the entire continent of westeros the fight for the iron throne is!!
I loved the show, I really did, but I can't even see it after the disaster they made. Tyrion beeing forgiven and then becoming hand of the king? There was no way that he would survive, and Grey Worm just ok with that (And with Jon left alive, deciced by another one held for treason..) just like the infinity number of lifes that Arya had or Sam! or even Jon, he was "forgiven" by a DRAGON! a Dragon who understood that THE THRONE had kill her mother some say... Add to that the easy death of the Night King, "The Long Night?" are you serious?, the death of Rhaegal because "Dany kind a forgot" Euron's Fleet and the fact that Drogon were indestructible a chapter later, with power not just to burn things, to make them explode too. The sudden madness of Dany, Jon's rejection, Sansa being a bitch for no reason, the infinity numbers of Dothraki and unsullied that Dany had, the atack to Dany's fleet and the precise capture of Missandei, the rol of The Golden Company! The sex escenes between Arya and Gendry and Briene and Jaime, just for him to die under the rocks!!! The lack of dialogue, the waste of screen time in the first two episodes and so on.. it really makes me sad
Yes, it was the long wait for the nightmare. I could not believe what I was watching.
“She’s mah Queen”
99% of people hated the 8th season sooooo sooo much
Sucks we never got to see
Lady Stoneheart. 😭👎
I've signed up to support your channel. I appreciate your attention to the text of ASOIAF.
I love audible. I actually have a problem comprehending things with reading and the style of GRRM is dense and difficult for me to read. That's why audible is so great for me! Though it takes a few months to get through it. I'm only on the second book
For some reason whenever people hear that Bran being king is a George thing, they immediately think that it will be as stupid as it was in the show. Can we all please agree that just because Dan and Dave are horrible writers, doesn't mean that bran being King wouldn't make any sense in George's book. Everybody seems to think that since it was stupid in the show, that George will be stupid about it too for some reason?? If bran ends up being the king in Georgia's story, it will definitely make sense. Cuz it's George and not some hack showrunner😂
There was a Q&A session with Martin and someone asked if: (1) Bran's paralysis was real, not psychological; and (2) if Bran will ever walk again. Martin said that yes, Bran's was really paralyzed, but he refused to answer the second question. It's possible that if Bran becomes king, it might not be as Bran the broken.
I have not read the books. But this video has convinced me too
You are gonna love them. But beware, you will despise the last 3 seasons of the show afterward.
@4:43 Wow I never thought of it that way before. That's way more convenient than manual reading! Now I'm more keen to use Audible! Thanks!
Another thing that felt off was Sansa just safely going from house to house in season 6 asking for armies. The whole reason she’s in disguise in the Vale is because Cersei has a bounty on her head for allegedly killing Joffrey. I don’t think she can honesty come out the vale as Sana’a Stark until BOTH Bolton’s and Cersei, Tommen die- That’s why I agree she’ll remain in the Vale through TWOW and much of ADOS. She’s also not developed enough to scheme LF’s death yet. Her leadership portrayal was too heavy handed tbh.
Also, in the show she is basically married to two men at the same time. Her marriage to Tyrion was not anulled and she was married to Ramsay nonetheless. Only one to call her for it was Lyanna Mormont.
Harauvatya that was terribly handled plot by D&D lol i mean at least have a scene where little finger falsifies a annulment or something 😂
Thank you for that point!! I didn't even think that Sansa was officially married to 2 people at once. Now technically Tyrion never slept with her so there may be a technical reason the marriage between Tyrion and Sansa but good catch.
It was soooo nice to hear you again!! Missed ur ASOIF voice!
Something that I really hate that no one's been really talking about is the North getting independence at the end. I just think it's so much nicer ending it with everyone united. There's a Stark on the throne in King's Landing as well, so there's absolutely no need for it.
I Imagine Bran will rule from Harrenhal and the Gods Eye. He would have to rebuild it but it is stated in the books that Harrenhal is the greatest castle Westeros had ever seen and "only the king amongst kings can rule, garrison and hold the castle"
The ending came across as a really bad fanfic. They killed off Stannis and Barristan very quickly so they could end up having Jon & Davos and Tyrion & Daenerys then have all the fan favourite "good guys" come together for the ending. It was very cliche and the fan service was really bad.
It's super impressive that you're balancing a youtube channel of this quality with life in the medical field. Respect.
"Tyrion and John and Arya were supposed to be in a love triangle" WHAT
Of course it’s not possible that Book End Same way as ASOIAF. Situation in book is absolutely, completely different. sansa’s death was spoiler from the first book as Ned and Robb. She will never be a queen in book.
And Dany’s vision which spoiled her death in House undying really no existing in book
Missed you Gray.
Glad to hear your passion again.
Martin said himself the books will end the same. He might get there by a different road but it will be the same..
I love you, your voice, your knowledge! You rock!!!
Eh. Love the books. Disgruntled with the author for doing everything else under the sun, except for finishing the books. Luckily your videos as well as many others videos keep me satisfied. 🙂
Yes I always look forward to these videos they give me great information I've just started on the books on Audible , I always luv Grey's an Talking Thrones videos an Grey she always goes into so many different storylines from the books an the show I've got alot of information from them both especially Grey I admire the work she does for her videos , from her I've been able to understand things that aren't in the show , she has the best voice for when she reads from the books , Thanks to Grey an Talking Thrones 👑🐺❄👑🐲🔥
I just hope that what happened to the author of Wheel of Time does not happened to GRRM.
Author of Wheel of time (Robert Jordan ) got sick and dies before he finished the series
@@1rjona awww ... and I was going to start reading them. Now I need to think on it. 🤔
@@devilsxdancex09 read the book. You will enjoy it if you watched the GOT tv series 1 to 6 and loved them
@@1rjona I think that's what he's hoping will happen. I think it's too much pressure and he doesn't know how to finish the books. Or he's sick of writing them that's why he keeps introducing more and more elements to keep himself interested but now it's too much to wrap up
12:04 Game of throne butchered Feast for Crows and Danse with Dragons and I think this has little to do with the butterfly effect.
Entire plots were cut out - like Victarion, Aegon VI, Dorne, Davos, etc.
I still like the show despite the last season but I totally agree, they shot themselves in the foot because they cut out "minor" characters not realizing that whilst their roles were small, their actions would lead to large consequences.
In my opinion D&D were telling the story based on Winds being finished before the show. There was so much source material not used that could have carried us through a few more seasons. I feel like basically we got the cliff note (gosh I’m old) version. We watched the show and were left on the biggest cliff hangers ever....no answers. If we had to wait for the prequels then why start telling the story. I was glad to see the books come to life but disappointed to still be in the same place where I began. Thanks for your continued dedication Gray.
I think George's plan is to always keep us guessing :(
I think most of us asked the wrong question: Who will sit on the Iron Throne? The answer turned out to be NO ONE. The throne was destroyed. The question we should have asked was: Who will end up ruling Westeros? GRRM response regarding the ending as yes, and no, and yes, and no... leaves a LOT of wiggle room. So many people in the series die and resurrect, that I would find it impossible to believe that Daenerys' story is done. She's too important to the followers of R'hllor. Drogon flew away with her body. Dragons on intelligent (wondering if throne destroyed because it led to Mom's death or to make sure no one takes it away from Mom before she returns) I do think she'll return, but not directly. The whole go east to reach the west seems to indicate Asshai (more dragons would be good.) It may be a long shot, but it's still possible Dany is pregnant by Jon. And he swore he would beget no bastards. So... So it ain't over until the GRRM says it's over. Everyone pray he lives a long, long life.
I think if George ever finishes the books ( and I frankly doubt that’s ever going to happen) People are in store for a rude awakening.
Bran as King? HBO and the actor who played Bran already confirmed that came straight from George.
Sansa as Queen in the North? That can absolutely happen in the books. In fact, Sansa has had more “Kingship training “ plot in the books than she ever got in the show itself!
Cersei as Queen? (probably not, as in the show probably a lot of the Fake Aegon plot went to Cersei by default)
The White Walkers being defeated before the end of the main plot? ( why do you think George is so obsessed with the Scouring of the Shire ending in LOTR? ) Because it all happens AFTER Sauron is dead!
Dany burning King’s Landing? What was the last episode George wrote for the show? 4.2 The Lion and the Rose. That episode features the first instance of Drogon’s shadow over King’s Landing in Bran’s vision…so I suppose yes.
Jon killing Dany? Yep. This was probably George’s third WTF moment as told to D&D. See all those “Last Hero killing beloved” references.
Jon/Dany? You think George is going to miss doing those parallelisms with Rhaegar and Lyanna? And it’ll end tragically, ‘cause it’s George.
Great Council electing Bran as King? Yep, that’s going to happen (it’s the only way Bran could become King)
Tyrion as Hand at the end? I don’t see why not.
Just found your channel, I love your nerdy, rambling, passion.
George R.R. Martin said that the fate of the main characters will be the same like in the show but he will change a lot other things too
My girl out here having never watched the original Fullmetal Alchemist, which decided to go a completely different route because the source material wasn't finished yet.
Arya may not get the chance to get to Waldar before Stoneheart
Cassidy
Agreed. Show Arya got Stoneheart's story.
11:49 "Two roads diverging in the dark of the woods, I suppose". GRRM, you beautiful bastard ❤️
Took some time away from the show to reflect. I’m so thankful for you GrayArea! I love your videos.
I think I allowed myself to get too caught up in ASOIF plot and characters. The show was the show and the books are the books. I spent too much time theorizing how they would be blended for the ending in season 8 and I think that’s where my own disappointment lies.
It just wasn’t possible- D and D took the characters and material where they wanted to go after Martin’s source material ended- because they had no other choice. So of course they developed plot lines and gave characters bigger arcs then Martin intended because they were now writing the story as they wanted.
I wish they had at least done 10 episodes and tried to develop the ending better but it is what it is. The epic saga started with the imagination and creativity of Martin and his glorious writing so hopefully he gets the chance to finish it. And we will have the complete body of work, both in TV and book.
This is the only audible advertisement that's actually convinced me to get it wow