I always felt that Septa Mordane (intentional or not) low key pitted Sansa and Arya against each other. She made Sansa the standard for Arya to aspire to, and Arya an example of how not to be for Sansa. Like, how can you foster a healthy sibling relationship with that dynamic?
A typical behaviour unfortunately. Grown ups do like to point at the better behaved/more diligent/exemplary child to shame the one they're dissatisfied. Needless to say, it's not doing either one of them any good.
They're in medieval times where gender roles are strict, and they're women, so they have to act as ladies. It's easy to understand. Sansa embraced her gender role while Arya denied it. So it's logical that the septa makes Sansa the standard. That's her role to educate them to be proper ladies.
@@franck5599 But they AREN'T in actual medieval history - they're in a medievalist fantasy that, in all honesty, GRRM had to subtly adjust with time. If this is truly one for one with medieval history in our world, where are Cersei's ladies as the queen? Why don't the Starks have more Northern families fostering with them to provide companionship at Winterfell? Why is the rate of death in childbirth for noble women higher in ASOIAF than at any point in our documented history? Why isn't Arya prized for her social ability and her success at sums, things a noble lady who would be in charge of a household would need? The answer is because it is a medievalist fantasy that is affected by the biases of the author.
@@featheredcloak Idc. All that woke bs about "she's pitting girls against girls how sexist of her to do that!!! Septa Mordane is so toxic!!!" while knights kill children, women are r worded every 3 episodes and treason and betrayal is common as water. It was made clear that Westeros is strict about gender roles. Using extreme examples to deny that is dumb. Just because he's copying Europe during medieval times does not mean he has to copy EVERYTHING.
Ned sheltered the girls, he never told them not to trust the Lannisters. The true nature of what could happen when married off. Oleana probably did this with her Granddaughter, which is why she's so cunning and ahead of the Lannister's abuses. You can see there is an open dialogue about who Joffrey is as a person before marriage and how to navigate is implied by Oleana's response "what a pity."
I appreciate this comment! So many fans love Ned that I think they forget that every character in this story has blind spots and none of them are perfect. Ned could have done better by Sansa
Another thing could be that Ned never realized how dangerous the Lannisters could be until it was too late. Ned knew they were unsafe but tried to help his friend and the kingdom. He couldn't comprehend that the Lannisters had so much influence over the court and disregard for laws, and they would do anything to keep their power.
@@TamaraPizhadze Maybe to an extent, the only reason I think Ned's a little more responsible for knowing is that he's a war veteran and has seen the extremes of Westerosi politics in person. Cat was a Princess in a tower most of her life. Ned has met Jaime and most likely been in proximity to Tywin. A man known for murdering innocent women and children for political gain. Hes seen how a Stark in Kings landing is not as Invincible as they are in Winterfell. Cat, Robb, Ned, Jon, Sansa, Arya, even book Bran. They all make huge lapses in judgment on the honor of other houses in almost an arrogant and sheltered way. It's their houses biggest flaw, being the opposite of a Lannister who doesn't care on the opinions of "sheep", self-righteousness. Pragmatism could've saved them in many ways.
Crazy thing is that he pretty much told Arya that "yeah the Prince is bad but hey I will still let your sister marry him" Love Ned but bro wasn't perfect
I so appreciate that you chose pictures that portray Sansa in an age-appropriate way. She's a child, but there is SO much sexualized fanart of her out there
Agreed, however to be fair most people associate Sansa to Sophie Turner who was 23 by the end of GoT, so they don't see her as she is in the book character
Exactly, and the series made her much older, that is why people who don't know the books can't make sense of her behaviour and despise her. Sophie Turner is a good actress but she looked waaaaaay too mature.
This is why I feel any asoiaf show should be animated. You've got to convey the children as children, and they've got to stay a similar age, even when years pass for each season
@@stefaniamatusik9828 the show only started with her being 2 years older than her book counterpart though, 13 is not really that much different or really that much more mature or self aware.
@@mylittlethoughttreethis is one major reason for not making a proper adaptation of books like Logans run as the age in the books and film make it not work, however in that case they departed considerably from the book to make it work
@@CaptainPikeachuan enormous amount of growth occurs between 11 to 13, that’s the age of puberty for moat girls. The social, psychological, and physical changes are dramatic. Besides, the Sansa in the show didn’t look 13. She looked maybe 14 at the youngest. More like roughly 16
In the book, Sansa is one of my favorite characters. I just always love how she persists through all of the horrors she has to endure and she doesn't break. She's maturing, yes, and learning how to play the game of thrones from Littlefinger, but she hasn't lost herself to hatred and cruelty like Cersei. She is still a kind soul and she is persevering through all of the suffering. It is nice to see that good and kindness can endure through malice and evil.
you couldn’t have said it better, she’s such a good example of how much hope there actually is in asoiaf, which so many people tend to overlook „I will remember, Your Grace," said Sansa, though she had always heard that love was a surer route to the people's loyalty than fear. If I am ever a queen, I'll make them love me.“ how could you not love her 😭
A kind soul? she's definitely not unkind, but saying she's kind is wild when she bullied Arya, name calling and even about her friend dying and blames her for everything even tho it was her lying that caused most of it.
I agree somewhat, I think it’s remarkable she came through the King’s Landing trauma with the ability to still empathise and didn’t let herself be crushed by everything. But Winds Sansa is definitely going down a darker path with Littlefinger. She has some pretty alarming thoughts about Sweetrobin and seems more and more open to scheming and deception, she has some pretty unkind and judgemental thoughts about many people in those chapters. She’s courteous and she is learning the game of thrones, but it’s clear she’s going to be willing to do dishonourable things that hurt people in the end. She’s not a great critical thinker and she IS a snob, we see several other noble womens’ perspectives and she looks down on others more than basically anyone but Cersei, including younger ones like Dany, Arya and Brienne. She’s flawed. She’s got some good points but also negative ones. It’s not black and white. I like book Sansa much more than show Sansa. She’s so haughty and cold and willing to believe the worst of Arya, but that’s partially Dan and Dave and partially Sophie Turner’s unfortunate acting choices.
When people are in survival mode, they often do not think of loved ones in a form of dissociation. That she did not think of John doesn’t necessarily indicate she does not care, rather she is focused on survival and cannot not allow the luxury of emotions. It’s one of the reasons attachment disorder develops, while usually seen in children neglected during critical developmental periods, it can develop, to a lesser extent, in older children. Sensa, was still a child, people lose track of that fact.
Yes, I can confirm that from personal experience. I was a perfectly normal kid with a great childhood, but I lost both my parents as a teenager. Left me with a real nice case of dissociative disorder. The severe depersonalization I experienced afterwards kinda healed itself over time, but I still struggle with connecting with and caring about other people. Never married, never had kids, no real career despite above average intelligence. People who have never experienced severe trauma rarely understand, how fundamentally it messes you up. And that your behavior afterwards has little to do with whether or not you are a 'good person'.
@raraavis7782 Yes, exactly! It’s why people who have develop coping mechanisms can be labeled as uncommunicative or callous. Their affect has changed because of past trauma, but it is not indicative of how they actually feel or how they are affected. I truly hope you have gotten the help you need to begin to heal and that the memory of your loved is a blessing to you. No one has the right to judge how someone else handles loss, as long as they are harming others, people have the right to process grief and trauma in the manner beat conducive to their healing. I have a fairly intensive, high risk job and (many years ago at 19) served as a volunteer paramedic in a war zone. Consequently, in emergency situations I instantly become absolutely calm and unemotional. I switch to problem solving and triaging. I have actually been told by Post 1 before, after relaying coordinates, that while he was glad the situation was locked down and under no immediate threat, he had to say he was afraid I was in shock. I have had to explain that no, I’m not in shock, I’m just incapable of getting emotional about anything until the danger has passed, then I process it from a controlled environment. In the moment, logic is the only way I can process anything, nothing matters beyond what needs to occur and what steps I have to take to complete that task.
@mylittlethoughttree You provided two hours of excellent content, I think you get a pass. Also, people who have firsthand exposure to trauma tend to recognize it in others.
I genuinely found it so smart how she pleaded for mercy for her father. Like, her just out right saying joffrey (and others) was wrong to call him a traitor isn’t smart but betraying her father isn’t the best decision either. Her smart thinking definitely could’ve worked on a more reasonable and respectful audience, and was a good decision especially from a CHILD
Seriously! Pleading that yes he committed treason but he was heavily drugged at the time due to his injury and in pain and someone took advantage of his weakened state and lied to him while he wasn't in a clear state of mind was so damn smart and nobody acknowledges that enough.
@@margaretconnor5623 Varys immediantly took the opportunity to save Ned by using her words..this should b enough to understand that she was using a good idea.
I will always hate when Sansa is compared to Cersei in terms of views on class. Is Sansa stuck up? Absolutely, but Cersei is so paranoid and self-obsessed that she sees the lives of those “below” her as disposable. Sansa, though she can look down on people or see interacting with them as “improper,” still values their lives and thinks it’s important to protect them. I think Jeyne Poole is a great example. She thinks of Jeyne as beneath her a few times in the narrative, but ultimately when Littlefinger and Cersei tell her they’re “taking her away,” Sansa is there desperately trying to defend her, saying she’s “good,” etc. It’s so heartbreaking because Sansa has no idea what is actually happening but she’s the only one there who places any value on Jeyne’s life. Also, her singing for the city in the sept during the Blackwater, saying “if I am queen I will make them love me,” etc. She still clearly thinks it’s important to take care of people. I feel like Sansa gets so much shit for her “highborn” attitude because she’s put in direct comparison to Arya, who is honestly kind of an exception because since Arya doesn’t fit the expectations set for her she has to find a new place to belong. Sansa definitely has to do so deconstructing of the views she grew up with about class superiority and gender expectations, but when you’re a child who fits those expectations and is under pressure to conform to them, it can be hard to question them. I was a typical “honors student” as a kid and I feel like I get her in that regard haha. Anyway I absolutely loved this video.
she‘s just… a little girl trying to do the best she possibly can, to live up to absolutely ridiculous expectations placed on her, to do everything „right“, constantly, with very limited resources available to her. and people give her crap for not handling the pressure well.
I encountered people online hating on Sansa Stark before I had ever read the books or seen the show. When I finally did, I was surprised to learn that was was only 11 YEARS OLD at the beginning of the first book. Yes, she was immature and made a lot of mistakes, sometimes coming off as annoying - but it makes SENSE that she did all these things; she was acting like a child because she WAS A CHILD. From the way people were talking about her, putting all the blame on her for all her mistakes and everything that went wrong, I would have thought she was at least 17.
@@CaptainPikeachu Nah, her worst crime was being a girly girl. I see far fewer people shit on Arya, despite her also being annoying and childish on occasion - because at least she's being childish in a non-girly way. People, especially people online, tend to be absolutely horrible towards and about teenage girls and their interests
it's one of the main issues with the books in general. most of the characters are very young children, barely teenagers. also GRRM has a tendency to make them act too mature for their age at times, while making them age appropriate at others. so readers end up forgetting just how young they are.
did she lie in the book? about who attacked whom at the riverside? she got lady killed...she got the butcher boy killed, because SHE wanted to be queen and married to joffrey..fuck her!
How can people blame her for literally being sold to some of the most evil men I’ve ever seen portrayed on screen??? She was a victim. But people love to victim blame…
1:25:46 never heard someone so succinctly describe the challenge of being a conventionally desirable young woman in a world where the people around you expect you to conform to their liking for their reasons, and you're balancing being submissive enough to keep yourself safe while also developing your own desires and personality. It's incredibly relatable and amazing that George is able to understand and articulate the catch-22 position that Sansa and most young women in general encounter once their red flower starts to bloom.
One thing i think should be mentioned is that Ned lost almost all his family the last time Starks traveled south, and especially the death of his sister Lyanna seems to weigh heavy in his mind. And Arya is said to look and act almost identically to her, so Ned tunnelvisions on trying to prevented his sisters fate repeating with Arya. Which leads to him neglecting guiding Sansa on how to deal with the southron politics. Ned seems to still be haunted by the death and destrution of Roberts rebellion.
@@blahblahblahblah729 really? Because the way Ned Stans use it, it sounds an awful lot like an excuse. And he used it as an excuse himself, consciously or not.
I agree, I think it’s interesting though considering that while Arya reflects Lyanna the most in looks and personality - even Sansa has a bit of Lyanna in her. The way she’s described as being wilful around Lady in Winterfell, and similar to Lyanna in that they both loved and cried at songs. Lyanna was just as much a fan of songs, in Meera Reed’s story, she cries at Rhaegar playing the harp. This is something Sansa would do. She’s also remarkably like a young Ned in how quiet she is, possibly expecting people to act in a way she predetermines in her head. That’s just something I’ve observed, so can’t say it’s correct, but it does make me wonder if Ned ever realised that comparison himself.
One underrated moment you didn't talk about was this Sansa went to Ser Lancel and knelt beside him. His wound was bleeding afresh where the queen had struck him. "Madness," he gasped. "Gods, the Imp was right, was right . . ." "Help him," Sansa commanded two of the serving men. One just looked at her and ran, flagon and all. Other servants were leaving the hall as well, but she could not help that. Together, Sansa and the serving man got the wounded knight back on his feet. "Take him to Maester Frenken." Lancel was one of them, yet somehow she still could not bring herself to wish him dead. I am soft and weak and stupid, just as Joffrey says. I should be killing him, not helping him. I feel like highlights everything about kingslanding Sansa. Despite everything that happened she is still a good and gentle person. She even shows mercy towards Lancel, someone who was horrible to her, and saves his life. Sansa's first instinct is to do good and help, even if they are her enemy. And while she sees it as a weakness because of her insecurities it is arguably her biggest strength. And it is also the reason why she is my favorite character. Amazing video
Ahhhhh thanks for commenting this!! I compiled tonnes of quotes when I reread all her chapters, then highlighted all of the ones from that list that I wanted to use in the video. This bit was one of them, so I don't know how I missed it out. It's a great moment that conveys so much
Definitely this! Sansa's the Stark who tries to retain her humanity and compassion the most in the books and yet people act as if she's the devil incarnate/ Cersei 2.0.
I don't understand why people detest Sansa so much. She's a young teenage girl, powerless and alone for much of the story. She's not a warrior, she doesn't have any magical powers, how else do people expect her to behave? Far more flawed characters seem to get cut a lot more slack.
I think that’s exactly why people hate her. She isn’t one of the badass characters that do things impossible for the reader, she’s a mirror for the audience. A (relatively) regular girl with no special power and who’s really into fantasy stories. She’s who the reader would be if they were actually a character. And people’s knee-jerk reaction to that is to be defensive of their own “unspecialness” by lashing out at Sansa.
I agree. Also,anyone who thinks she is a wimp is mistaken. She develops into a strong individual who does the best she can with what she has been given. She has more depth of character than her sister.
Controversially, I actually think Sansa going to Cersei was a really great moment of growth for her. She actually disobeys an authority figure to get what *she* wants! She stopped passively accepting whatever was expected of her, and took agency over her own life. It's such a tragedy that the circumstances made it a huge mistake, rather than a first victorious step out of people pleasing her life away.
Oh, I didn't even think of it that way. It's bittersweet that her first attempt to take control or exert any force in the world of adults backfired so terribly. :'(
it‘s also perfectly logical for her. she absolutely idealises Cersei as the embodiment of everything she wants to be, the ultimate authority in her head. Sansa probably can’t even imagine that Cersei isn‘t like her, because she sees Cersei as more of a trope the heroine can appeal to. Sansa actually feels happy and seen and like she‘s finally rewarded for all her efforts. She‘s just trying to prevent something she‘s absolutely sure will make her unhappy for no good reason except some cruelty of fate. Sansa seems like she genuinely doesn’t have any idea of what she‘s doing and what‘s happening around her - partially because no one ever bothered to sit down with her and explain the reality of what‘s going on. if her naivety is being actively enabled, then you can‘t really blame her for being naive… also it‘s really kind of significant that for the first time, she‘s actively doing something for her own happiness (or the attempt) rather than for other people and approval and appearances - only for it to immediately backfire. she probably had some massive guilt over that, and no one to offer actual sympathy or understanding or comfort in the fallout. no wonder she takes so long to even vaguely start choosing for herself again….
@@atlas956 Yes, Sansa actually wants to live in the capital, with all the arts, culture, and court life. That's exciting for her! She's always been "the good girl", and it's paying off now. She has grown up sheltered in Winterfell, with largely trustworthy people, always rewarded for good behaviour. Those are the rules she has been raised by; be good and get rewarded. All her dreams are coming true! And then her father wants to take it all away. Even before, when Lady is killed, the choice for Sansa is completely losing her belief in how the world works, a way in which she controls her outcomes by behaving - or realising that little girls get married off to monsters even if they are good girls, and end up the property of people who will hurt them for life. Of course Sansa deliberately holds on to the veil of childish belief! Of course she holds on to the belief that she can have things turn out fine if she follows the rules, rather than accepting being powerless to stop being hurt. Sansa wants so badly to believe that her dreams are still coming true, and that she isn't trapped in a nightmare. And she does what she feels she has to, to ensure that idealised future, when her father seeks to take it away from her, and replace it with something else of his choosing, not hers.
A lot of hatred for Sansa springs from her being an innately feminine character. They’ll deny it, but if you ask most people they’ll turn up their noses at outwardly feminine characters. You’ll ask “favorite female fictional character” and most people will always answer action heroes like Ellen Ripley or Furiosa (and don’t get me wrong, I love them too!). Being feminine is still very looked-down upon in our culture when it comes to individualism, even as female beauty is prized so highly. Sansa loves embroidery and dancing and has aspirations of courtly love and living her life like a bard’s song, so she is deemed “silly” and useless while a rough-and-tumble character like Arya, who rejects and scorns femininity, is seen as aspirational by the fandom.
people don't hate her femininity, or rather not a lot. it is the refusal of the stans to aknowledge her flaws, her mistakes, infantalising sansa. she is an airhead and blunders a lot. it isn't because she is girly but her choices and the consequences.
they also made arya and brienne both so misogynistic in the show, when in the books, you know, it wasn't their authentic just "i'm not like other girls, was raised by my older brothers/ whatever" shit, but they actually feel like, if they could be feminine they'd take the chance, but they just can't. both brienne and arya thinks that its their looks, unlike cersei type of misogyny like "she was cursed to live in a womans body, supposed to be born a man" etc. brienne dreams of being a wife, a lady, but she just cant, same with arya, like it doesnt work for her
@@CChrissssssy So is Arya, but Sansa is an annoying girly girl which a major crime nowadays. People always say feminine girly girl characters are annoying because everyone nowadays hates extremely feminine characters. Arya is annoying as hell at times but she's a tom boy who likes non feminine things so when she's being an annoying child people praise her. But when Sansa is being an annoying child 'she's just so annoying and stupid and silly and I hate her'. The hatred she gets from so many fans is not because she's 'just annoying'. It's because they find a girl being very feminine to be annoying
While I do agree that many people in this fandom might hate her out of misogynistic reasons and others dislike her extremely childish "girlhood", I must also say that there is a much, MUCH bigger reason to dislike her. What she does, as understandable from her perspective as it is, goes exactly against characters you root for. You like Arya, Ned, Jon, Robb and Sansa, especially in the first book, acts in ways that bring those people harm. So you start to dislike her for that. And then, when you start to like her, she does things that are - from an all knowing readers perspective - supremely stupid. I mean, if a half-burned serial killer, who worked for the person who abused you told you to come with him right in thr middle of a siege, you probably would nlt trust him. But we the readers know the Hound means well and wouldn't harm her. So her not coming woth him and trusting the obviously evil littlefinger seems idiotic. But to her one is very clearly evil and the other guy a somewhat sleezy, half-way competant plolitician who is in love with her mom. Not the best choices, but one is definitly more trustworthy. People dont necessarily dislike her womanly behavior, its what that behavior ends up causing. Her behavior is annoying to many people, due to the show. In the books, we find out some things later and can therefore excuse her behavior, since we all also didn't know. But in the show, we knlw beforehand hlw utterly stupid she acts and since they understandably didn't cast an 11 year old girl, peopel do imagine her as quite a bit older. Most of her actions are so easily excusable, due to her being 11. But in the show we see her as 16, maybe 17. She doesn't come off as an innocent child making mistakes, but as a teenager who is dumb as a rock and endangers everyone. So yeah, most of the hatred comes from what her actions caise, rather than the actions themselves.
I always liked Sansa (in the ear;y seasons), even though I felt she was annoying during season 1. What really surprised me though is how much more likable she is in the books. Seeing things from her perspective made her so much better for me, and she is one of my favorites now.
She is an interesting, intelligent and perspective character. Her main issue is how passive she’s forced to be since she spent most of the books a prisoner. I think that’s why so many hate her, and the surface level reading, she call herself an idiot a few times and peoples believe her like they believe Tyrion when he says he’s so smart. Glad you enjoyed the character hehe
I always really appreciated sansa as a character for her intelligence (like how she improvised an excuse to save Dontos' life) but i never actually picked up on the angle of her resilience of character in terms of her never compromising her kindness and respect for the vulnerable. I think in a world like asoiaf its easy for something like that to be lost in the noise of practically everyone being either evil or cynical. This video has made her probably my new favourite character
Keep in mind, while Sansa is in the Vale under Petyr Baelish ”protection”, her sister Arya is an apprentice in the House of Black and White, learning how to become an faceless assassin by the Kindly Man and her younger brother Bran is learning more about his greenseeing powers from Bloodraven. All the remaining Stark children (aside from Rickon and maybe Jon Snow, if he is resurrected) are under control by mentors who want to use them for their own purposes and I think the next step for the Stark-kids is to reject the darker aspects their mentors try to thrust upon them. So no, I don’t think Sansa will become a Cersi 2.0 or a Littlefinger 2.0. She learn from them sure, but in the end I don’t think she will be like them. One more thing, it’s only a tiny little detail and I’m not upset you missed it, there is probably a lot of things to read and analyze, but Sansa didn’t mean to rip Sweetrobin’s doll. When he started to ruin her snow castle, she tried to grab his arm to stop him, but grabbed his doll instead and then it ripped. I just wanted to make that clear.
Yeah that's how I see it, too. The chew the fat and spit out the gristle idea. I hadn't considered how well it also lines up with Bran and Arya, though, thanks!
I believe she already rejected Cersei's influence when Cersei tries to give her own brand of comfort to Sansa during the Battle of the Blackwater. Sansa listened to Cersei's advice, disagreed with her (Cersei) methods and then vowed to make the people love her when she's Queen and in doing so, she would be different from Cersei, who relies on fear and intimidation to get her subjects to do her bidding.
I think Sansa is so much more like her father they’re both patient very internal they think before they act not rash and they can be overly trusting to their own downfall and they share a strong sense of honor but Arya and catelyn are very rebellious they don’t trust people easily and they’re quick to action and they don’t have a general sense of empathy to everyone around them just the people they care about where Sansa and Ned show compassion for people they’ve never even met
I think people fall into the trap of thinking that because Arya is more masculine that she’s automatically more like Ned and because Sansa looks like Cat she must be like her but I don’t think that’s the case at all
I would generally agree, however I think she has a closer relationship to Cat, and considers herself more like Cat as a child. Her personality is closer to Ned but I also don't think she consciously sees that at the beginning
sometimes i can't even think about sansa without getting emotional because i just find her so relatable. her arc means a lot of things to me but bottomline grrm captures the violent shift from girlhood to womanhood so perfectly
Sansa in the first book reminds me of a kid who grew up on Disney princess stories and expected life to be that way. Her telling Cersei about Ned’s plan to leave is that rebellious heroine trope that works out for Disney princesses like the Little Mermaid (“but daddy I love him!”)
I also grew up with princess stories, had princess dresses every birthday, but as I grew old I realized that I'm viewing my life from a villain's perspective. Life sucks, people sucks and I'm beginning to look like Ursula.
@@DavidCarradinesBelt Sansa did see Joff for what he was -- and on an intuitive level, such as in her dreams, you can tell she knew it deep down -- but her mind overrides the evidence before her eyes in favor of a fantasy of the 'perfect prince' because that's what she believed and also what she wanted.
@@DavidCarradinesBelt Hmm. If u actually read the books, Sansa had memory issues (e.g. having memory of sandor kissing her but it's not the case), etc. So the scene kinda fits.
Sansa's greatest sin, imo was simply because she was a young girl who was acting like a young girl, and people take offense to that. There is at times an inherent animosity towards girls that are traditionally feminine and its perception as weakness. There are definitely some misogynistic undercurrents when it comes to the Sansa backlash. We shouldn't be expecting a child to have the wisdom of a grown person, and I'd wager in retrospect even a grown woman wouldn't have all the information available to her to act completely appropriately in Sansa's situation at King's Landing. I know I wouldn't. There is so little grace for children when they act like children in extreme circumstances. Just because trauma is underway doesn't change their age or maturity level. We can't expect them to be more than what they are just because an extreme situation is taking place.
Sansa has been my favourite character in A Song of Ice and Fire since her political awakening in King's Landing. I distinctly remember the exact moment it clicked for me, when during a Tyrion POV chapter soon after he arrived in the capital, he notices Sansa working the crowd of nobles, and thinks to himself that she is quite good at this. It was the first opportunity we'd had to see Sansa through someone else's eyes since she was separated from her family, and especially coming from the POV character we'd come to associate with cunning political maneuvering, to have him not only see her as something of a peer, but to also PRAISE her was enormous. I've loved her development, and of everyone we've met along the way, hers is the only story that I *DESPERATELY* need to have a happy ending. For someone who has been treated as a tool and weapon for everyone else's games, I want Sansa to come out of this living a life of HER choosing, whatever shape that takes. I paused a half hour into the video to write this comment, and I have to say that I adored your breakdown of the Sansa/Arya relationship. I think it's telling that for both of them throughout their many POV chapters, it's each other that they think of most often, and they both have the same reaction, each time: They are caught off guard and surprised that they think of their sister fondly, when all they ever knew was conflict. As someone with 7 brothers and sisters, that's such a relatable experience of the early years of leaving home and living apart. Once the pressure isn't there to set yourself apart by emphasizing those things that make you different from each other, the common ground you share is able to be seen for what it is. I so hope they get a reunion. My silly fantasy scene is for Sansa to somehow encounter Nymeria (who we hear repeated references to as leading a giant pack of wolves roaming the countryside), and for there to be a recognition between them, or even just recognition on the part of Nymeria that Sansa is kin. The reason I paused here was because you'd just concluded the section on Jon Snow, and asked the question of why Sansa never thinks of him. I think it's to do with the earlier observations that Sansa only sees herself (or at least only saw herself as a child) as being a highborn lady. She doesn't even really see people as PEOPLE so much as they are their titles, their societal roles, their professions. She almost never uses people's names, and as you illustrated, doesn't connect with people as people. She even explicitly calls Jon her "bastard half-brother" - notably the only Stark child to ever refer to him as anything less than a brother - but I never saw any malice in it. She didn't hate Jon, or think of him as lowly. She just matter-of-factly labeled him (accurately, I might add) as being legally and societally outside her family, no more a close relative than Theon Greyjoy. Speaking of which, I'm sure that she would have seen Theon's betrayal of Robb and Winterfell as breaking an oath, and being generally dishonourable, but I doubt it ever would have crossed her mind that it was scandalous due to him having been a ward at Winterfell, and Robb having looked upon Theon as a brother. That was simply beyond the scope of how Sansa saw the people around her as she grew up. Her siblings were Robb, Bran, Arya, and Rickon. Theon was a ward, and Jon Snow (who I imagine she typically called by his full name) was a bastard half-brother. So, when Sansa doesn't think about Jon, even while experiencing life as a bastard, it's because she just simply didn't have a strong connection to him. Tellingly, she DOES think of him when she builds the snow castle in the Eyrie, because she's reliving memories of WINTERFELL, and that's how she associates with Jon. Jon Snow was NOT a part of her family; Jon Snow was a part of Winterfell. Given how close Jon was with Arya, I suspect that Sansa simply saw him as another one of the castle riff raff that her sister spent time with instead of learning to be a proper lady like she should have. She no more hated Jon than she hated the stable boy. She also didn't love Jon any more than the stable boy, either. She doesn't think of the stable boy after leaving home, so why should we be surprised or confused that she doesn't think of Jon? He just wasn't an important part of her life.
It's astounding how the deeper we dig into each and every one of the many characters in ASOIAF, the more sense everything makes. GRRM is truly a genius writer, and beyond that, the kind of wisdom and understanding of people and life one would need to be able to get all of that so right, even down to the psychology and emotions of a teenage girl is unfathomable
This is the most refreshing video I’ve ever encountered on sansa. Genuinely. I’ve been defending her online for years ! The vitriol towards her is unjust and over the top. The amount of accounts I have blocked on tumblr ughhh anyway this is a great analysis 😅
I live under too much of a rock to see most fan opinions beyond the comments I get, but I've heard it can be very intense 😅 I always generally just hope videos like these encourage such people to be more understanding. Sometimes I think it works
@@mylittlethoughttree I posted about your video on tumblr since I really loved it and thought other people should give it a watch and have already had about 450 accounts interact with it. It’s been very well received over there !!! Sansa has been the most hated character of asoiaf since her conception, and people still actively hate her. But it’s good video essays like these that shed much needed light on her character, and all the nuance she has. I’m excited for more to come 🫶
@@Cherryfxmls oh wow, thank you! That's genuinely made me smile. The main thing I've always wanted to do with my channel is encourage empathy, so I'm glad it's being well recieved
This is probably one of the best takes on Sansa I've ever seen! You pulled out so much of the things I love about her, without glossing over the dark parts or romanticising trauma (I love the way you discussed her relationship with Sandor - it is so interesting, but far too often people simplify it and talk about it as a romance, overlooking the SA/trauma). I hope we someday get to see how her full arc plays out in TWOW and ADOS. I feel like her arc has the capacity to be one of the most powerful - I love how you described it with her seeing and understanding the ugliness of the world, but still choosing to believe that there is beauty worth fighting for. That has always been the core of her character, in my opinion.
I think Sansa “hadn’t thought of Jon in ages” because she never really talked to him in the first place. She probably sees him kind of how one might see a more distant relative. I have a lot of first cousins and I don’t really talk to some of them much because we don’t really click. You know each other and you know you’re related but because you don’t spend time with each other you don’t tend to think about each other. She’s been thinking about the siblings she was close with and interacted with and has also been processing her grief for them on top of that. I think she probably views Jon as more of Robb’s friend who she doesn’t really know, probably similar to Theon even
The way I interpret the "Arya would make friends with anybody" is more as a bitter disappointment directly to do with Arya seeming to prefer Mycah's company to Sansa, rather than Sansa envying Arya's ability to make friends. Robb and Jon had each other, and I'm sure little Sansa was oh so excited when she got a baby sister! Finally, a sibling for her to do things with! But then Arya turns out to be "half a boy and half a wolf cub". Then Bran, then Rickon. Sansa does "get" a sibling to be her companion in "girl stuff", and I think *that* makes Sansa feel lonely, and very bitter about how Arya seems to like everyone better than she likes Sansa.
Yeah. It’s kind of ironic how the greater audience of GoT also disliked Sansa for seemingly no reason (to me, someone who always loved her). It’s this general disdain for femininity that confuses and hurts Sansa.
I've been waiting for this and was not disappointed! Sansa is my favorite character and relate to her quite a bit because of some things I experienced as a child. Sansa's story shows us that sometimes the best and most heroic thing you can do is just make it to the next day.
In my opinion, the idealisation of the South by Sansa parallels the idealisation of Westeros by Dany. Another parallel lies in the duty to the family that is forced upon them (Sansa and Joffrey, Dany and Drogo), however Dany recognises that she is being sold like a slave, while Sansa doesn't immediately understand her position as a pawn in the larger game of thrones. This might be the age difference between the two, or the fact that Dany did not grow up sheltered the way Sansa did. Overall, George is so good at writing young girls.
it amazes me how well GRRM portays sisterhood and sibling rivalry. as the older sister i relate so much to sansa, my parents always seemed to favor my little sister despite her being much more badly behaved. there is a constant unspoken jealously between sisters, especially during childhood and adolescence. it wasnt until adulthood that my sister and i were able to talk out our personality differences and that all of our problems were rooted in jealousy or just wanting to spend time with each other and being too stubborn to admit it. your analysis is fantastic, and even more so GRRM’s writing and portrayal of sisterhood is near perfection.
I like the part about how she was sheltered, not taught to play by her family. The contrast is seen to Margery who became near perfect under the scheming Tyrells, particularly Olenna
I've always interpreted her fear of Ilyn Payne as a confrontation with mortality and death. Death was present in the world she grew up in, but it never became personal until her journey south with the deaths of Lady and Ned and so many others. She's still a child and even though she's aware of death as a concept, she's now being forced to acknowledge it as a universal reality. While Ned was the one to kill Lady, Ilyn Payne was the one who was originally going to do it, so Sansa probably projected those painful feelings on him rather than her father. And he solidified himself as her symbol of Death when he executed Ned. I think the narrative purpose of her fear of Payne is to contrast her and Arya's relationship with death, Sansa being much more fearful and Arya being a little too comfortable.
Man, this was totally worth the wait. Bravo! Might watch it another time or too just to really sink my teeth in. I find Sansa's character so interesting largely because she's both a character you've seen over and over again in stories (the beautiful princess tragically locked away and needing to be rescued) and also a character that you never see in stories (an inside look at what it would actually *be like* to be that princess who can do nothing but endure being trapped while endlessly hoping for rescue). I wanted to mention in regards to your question about her saying she hasn't thought of Jon in a long time that I think she isn't *aware* of having thought of him in a long time. She hasn't consciously thought of him, just like she hasn't thought of Jeyne Poole for a really long time-it's too big to deal with. She knows Littlefinger took charge of Jeyne and then Jeyne disappeared forever. The implications are terrifying, and she can't let herself acknowledge them. Jon is the one member of her family that she *knows* is still out there and, in fact, knows pretty much exactly where he is. No matter what their relationship was before, she probably knows that he could offer her a sense of family and home that she can no longer get anywhere else (as far as she knows). But there's no way she could ever get to him. That bit of home is out there but always out of reach. It's safer not even to let herself dream, at least while she's in King's Landing. Then in the Vale, she has to start living as a nobleman's bastard, and she creates this persona of Alayne seemingly from scratch. Yet, the aspects of Alayne she gets to choose for herself seem to recall Jon. She makes Alayne 14 instead of her actual 13. Jon was 14 the last time Sansa saw him. She calls Alayne "bastard brave," but where would she get the idea that bastards are particularly brave compared to anyone else? She worries that Alayne might not like to dance, even though Sansa herself loves dancing. Why would Alayne dislike dancing just because she's a bastard? In ADWD, we see Jon refuse to dance with Alys at her wedding. It's possible that Jon himself doesn't particularly like to dance. It seems that Jon could be present in Sansa's *subconscious* when she's creating her Alayne persona. Then, of course, Myranda confronts her with the news that Jon is now Lord Commander of the Nights Watch, and just as you mentioned in your video, here in the Vale she has more breathing room to begin processing her experiences. It's safer to allow herself to yearn for what she wants, and so she is able to consciously acknowledge that Jon is her only remaining family (as far as she knows) and that she longs to see him again. This comment has grown very long, but I just wanted to share my take on Sansa supposedly not having thought of Jon for a long time! Once again, loved the video, and I really really hope you get to collab with Quinn the GM in future because his videos are among my faves. Maybe when he finally finishes law school. XD
Ohh so excited to watch this, I have been looking forward to it so much! Sansa is such a wonderful character, I truly believe she represents the average fantasy reader, which many of us do not want to admit- I think this is why she is not generally well-liked among the fandom. But in that world, I really think she represents how a normal person would act and would have acted historically in the period GRRM takes inspiration from, given her situation and circumstances.
I think one of Salsa's main themes is seeing the way that the men playing the game of thrones are essentially just little boys throwing tantrums because they crave adulation. I think her power relates to that--in being able to transform into the mother they crave. Her talent is taming the monster.
Sansa has always been my Favorite, I cannot for the life of me understand all the hate she gets when the poor kid is barely thirteen and mostly trying to stay alive
Sansa is hated in part because she is mainly sjow🎉n in contrast with Arya, who while younger, sees more of the truth than Sansa does. At the same time Sansa is often cruel to Arya and sides against her. Second...all the horror starts in part, because of her... I don't hate her, she is a victim of her time, but i admit i enjoy my time in Aryas head way more than i do enjoy sansa chapters...
@@brontesaurusrex7235 they are... I actually think that is a very fascinating point in martins writing: you see characters from the viewpoint of other characters and see and feel their actions from the POV you are reading. So depending on which POV's resonate most with one reader will influence how they feel about others heavily..
@@saraa.4295 When I was younger, I related to Arya but as I grew older, I realized I saw Sansa’s POV more. Arya is fun and spunky and easy to love and agree with, but the older I get, the more I understand Sansa’s perspective and the struggles of duty and expectations of family and society and what you’re supposed to be.
@@CaptainPikeachu that's how we recognize great books...we see them with other eyes as we grow. Though to be fair, her chapter remains stressful to me, because i always feel, it would take so little to steeer her to a better path..just a simple honest talking to..
30:44 I do think there's a cultural gap - knights are Andal and the First Men are made of harder stuff - but also the North has a harder life bogged down by the logistics of the cold and feeding people and extreme states of living that have not come to the South in the same way - as if the North doesn't have the capacity for frivolity.
Agree. There are no other Northern ladies in Winterfell for Sansa to emulate. No aunts, cousins, or a grandmother. Catlynne is Southern and tries to import her Southerness and impose it on her Northren daughter(s) by having a Septa educate thrm and encouraging traditional 'sourthren' notions of ladyhood, chivalry, and courtesy. Catlynne herself doesn't seem to have any friends among the Northern ladies and is very isolated. She should have sent for daughters of Northern lords to be Sansa's (and Arya's) companions at Winterfell years ago. Instead, she's left with just Jane Pool, who's not her social equal.
I think Sansa's issue with Sir illyn is the fact that he was the person who took the head of her father and so she sees him as the literal boogie man now And she knew how good her father was, how pure and true and just he was! And he got beheaded
I think it’s important not to forget that Ned was pretty openly married to “duty” as a concept. Didn’t he drill that into his children? For Sansa that would look different because her role is different, but the value is the same. In an undeveloped mind that could mean, just, do as you’re told. She had to unlearn all of that, and pick up cunning, very quickly and very harshly. I think Ned’s influence shouldn’t be downplayed
I think that's also Catlynne's influence. The Tully words are: "Duty Family. Honor." Catlynne married Ned after Brandon's death out of duty. Although she came to love Ned over the course of their marriage, it's implied she was _in_ love with his older brother, who she knew much better than the younger "quiet wolf."
I adore Sansa and her growth so far. She was raised to be sent off for the benefit of her family, and she truly believed that she was doing the best thing in the moment. As she learns she's wrong she pivots and holds firmly to her innermost truth her deepest hope for how the world should work.
Also he kissed her though gently with his blade, it was a kiss with a blade but she can focus more safely remember only that it was a kiss, and possibly not actually "physically" painful. Mental scars clearly apparent none the less........ and he said he was there to rescue her so while Dontos was groping she almost wishes she could have at least kissed the Hound's good cheek....... (she's a child)
I always thought of Sandor as her replacement for Lady. So much of what King Robert said in GoT turns out to be prophecy, and he told Ned, “a dire wolf is no pet, get her a dog she’ll be better off.” The Stark children and their wolves walk similar paths narratively in the books and the same can be said for Sansa and her Hound. Sandor “dies” but isn’t really, he is disguised under a new name and identity. Just like Alayne Stone. In that sense yes I do believe The Hound cares for and even loves Sansa in the same way your dog loves you.
It really baffles me that some people would expect Sansa to "stand up" to her captors in any way, if that's actually an argument people make. If she did, THAT would make her stupid. She is 11 years old, and she has ridiculously little power in her situation, and every interaction is life vs death or violence for her. The world of AsoIaF is more like our real world, where showing disrespect this situation has consequences. It's not a Marvel film, and she isn't trained as some sort of spy or warrior. Unlike such characters, she doesn't live in a world that works like the songs (or most fantasy fiction) do. I think people might expect this of her because they compare her to Arya, who does mouth off until she learns otherwise further on in the story. Imagine what the Lannisters would've done to Arya if she wasn't smuggled out of Kings Landing, and kept acting like she always has? Imagine how far they'd go to break her. I can imagine she'd probably not be allowed to see sunlight for a long time, not until they'd marry her off to the Boltons. She likely wouldn't have the opportunity Sansa did to escape, 'cus she'd likely be locked up and abused like a dog... if Joffrey didn't have her killed first, like Ned.
Great video. I love Sansa's character. Its common for us first born females to mother our younger sisters. I saw my younger sister as my own child. We were born four years apart and I had a lot of responsibility put on me by my mother to help her raise her. As teens, it was me who my baby sister called to get her out of trouble, not our mother. So it's hard to treat your younger siblings as equals when you played the motherly role for so long towards them and saved their butts countless times from doing stup*d things.
Yeah... my sister is just 2 years younger than me but since we were in kindergarten i always took care of her. I remember spoon feeding her at lunch when she was like 3 and i was 5. I aleays say i don't want children because i've raised one already, especially after our mom died when we were 14 and 16 and my dad was a dick...
It's not even for a younger sister, I have a younger brother, and I turned into his second mother, I was the one who taught him what menstruation was for example, when my mother was trying to pretend it didn't exist I love that kid, but jeez, the amount of stress I went through
Sansa is my favourite character in the books. I just think George did such a good job writing her. I relate to her the most. So many people admire Arya and i get it. As far as books/tv goes shes a badass but do we really want a world that creates a child killer? (I know children go to war irl) but most of us are not her. This video was so well done. Sansa get so much hate for going to Cercie but for me Ned and Cat failed her.... but only because they thought there was more time. Sansa is a normal child with normal romantic notions and she learns an extremely harsh lesson. I hope she has a happy ending 😊
I hate when people act like Arya having killed people is somehow cool. It’s very obviously traumatized her. People even say her murder of Daeron is somehow indicative that she’ll be the queen in the north, because she kills people just like her daddy. But daeron’s murder is more like a repeat of Ned killing Gared. It’s a horrific injustice made worse by being committed by someone who isn’t a villain, or even slightly bad, but broken.
Just paused the video in the Jon section to comment on why Sansa may not have thought about Jon in ages... I don't recall the exact point in the book, but just listening to your video and knowing all that had happened to Sansa between the last time she saw Jon and now, and given the fact that they were in different social circles even then... it makes sense. Jon was a lifetime ago. A different lifetime. A different Sansa, even.
Could it be possible that the reason Ned was more honest with Arya about the dangers was that 1) Arya is more inclined to speak her mind at the wrong time - which would put her in danger, 2) given that Arya is more Tom boyish, and most of Ned's children are boys, it was slightly easier for Ned relate/explain things to her than Sansa?
As a loud and shameless Sansa stan, I deeply appreciate this video. Thank you for delving into her psychology like this and doing it the justice it deserves.
Who doesn't love Sansa Stark? Lol, she's the main character of Game of Thrones to me because she embodies what the (medieval fantasy) world should look like versus the trauma of facing how it actually is and trying your best to cope with it. I wish they had shown more of that in the show they really did her dirty. I think we all have a hidden affection for Sansa because she is basically the embodiment of feminine innocence and what the other end of that would look like, and just how real that is... :(
Sansa really is the main character to me because she really embodies how the world had ought to be versus how it is. And in a series that focuses so much on honor and honorable virtue and values nobody I think can really narrate how that should be like Sansa can. If anybody was to ask how a knight should be and how a knight should act, Sansa would be able to give you the best answer, because she thinks about it so much. And shes not a perfect character but shes not supposed to be, none of the characters are perfect you know
I love this whole video. Sansa is one of my favourite characters and I just think she’s so interesting. I agree with your Jon Snow section, also. There is definitely something very fascinating going on there.
Wow dude, this piece really blew me away; I can tell so much love and care was put into this video and just how well you broke everything down, my personal fav part was the last 3 chapters, the Piece, the Player and Spring. That theory of her being the perfect character to make there be something worth fighting for when the walkers come was something ive never thought about before and truly made me think hard about where the story could lead and sansas story as a whole. its so profound and thought provoking (best way i can describe what this video has made me feel) She was already one of my favourite characters, though not quite beating sandor i think shes easily my 2nd favourite character in the entire series now, damn you tywin wont be happy losing his spot! Seriously, I loved this piece and definitely will be coming back to it every so often just for the experience! Cheers!
Watching this makes me feel so many ways, because I see myself in Sansa so deeply that discussing her psychology is almost like someone is looking me through a glass. I love her so much.
That's often been the unexpected result when I make videos like these. I talk about a fictional character but people relate to that person and sometimes feel like I'm discussing them. I'm never entirely sure if that's a good thing because it could feel exposing for some, and I don't want to accidentally make people see every single aspect of Sansa as a reflection of themselves, when it might only be certain aspects. Generally though, I think it's been a positive experience. It's probably the main reason I've kept making these. I want people a) to feel they can be understood and b) to encourage people to show empathy or try to understand others. Anyway, I love Sansa too, she's possibly my favourite character
I'm only on the third(?) book, and Sansa's chapters are those I enjoy the most if I'm honest. They're very easy to get into emotionally, as it's very straight-forward what the stakes are and they're always there at the forefront. There's hardly any lull in the suspense, because every situation every day for Sansa is life and death, even the most "mundane" interactions. She is always in danger, and you're made so aware of it by the text.
Thank you for the video! You’re the first person I think to compare Sweet Robin with Joff, which is very interesting! And I really think that Sansa being somewhat of a maternal figure to him is really important. I also think that being that maternal figure is also matters if (or when) she’s reunited with Jon, because he didn’t get his closure with Catelyn, and to have a Stark woman that’s so like her to accept him as an equal would be really satisfying
This felt like you opened up my mind and explained everything about me. I really appreciate you speaking of her gently and making her sound special. It honestly made me feel really nice. I didn’t realize Sansa and I were as alike as we are. I had always liked her story.
i requested this about a year or so ago words cannot describe how happy i am to see this video is up now!!!! sansa is my favorite character and you did her so much justice and viewed her with so much empathy!!! thank you so much!!!
I don't understand why I used to hate Sansa, but after rewatching the show and reading the books, I completely changed my mind about her. She was a child in a place where people were using and abusing her. A place where her " traitor" of dad has been executed in front of her. However, she managed to survive all that and more even after she got out of king's landing. Her story is not finished in the book series, but I like where she ended up in the show. She always wanted to be a queen, and her dream became reality after much adversities, but in the process,she grew so much stronger. She is not a little bird anymore, believing in fairytale. But she for sure had a lot of emotional,psychological and physical trauma.
i agree. Sansa is obviously intelligent, politically apt when given the chance and has solid diplomacy and court skills. she knows what tyranny and exploitation look like first hand, and yet, she genuinely believes in kindness and justice. i absolutely refuse to believe that the line about her wanting to be a queen who is loved is anything but foreshadowing that she‘ll eventually rule the North.
I think it is because Sansa doesn't want to think about her family because it makes her so sad. I remember her praying for Jon's safety and thinking of Jon when she saw Yoren. But the only bastard she would have spent a significant time around would be Jon and Alayne's personality is based on a bastard she knows. She said "Alyane was born on the other side of the pillow and is bastard brave"
I really love this video!! Sansa is so misunderstood, I used to hate her when I was younger, but looking back I feel a lot of empathy towards her. Hers story is one of loss of innocence, letting go of romantic idealizations in favor of facing reality, coping with your own limitations - imposed by society and by your own mind - and finding courage and strength to push on in spite of it. As someone that tends to live in my own head, idealize things too much and shut down when my expectations (of myself, of others, of life in general) dont measure up to reality, I've grown to really love her and feel for her. I believe that we, as readers/watchers, probably like to imagine that, in the world of Westeros, we would be more like Arya or Dany or Jon, taking charge of our own destinies, but Sansa really shows us how terrifying it would be to navigate westerosi society. She makes us face our own shortcomings, powerlessness in face of danger, jealousy, naiveté - and it can be hard to have empathy with someone that reminds us of not so flattering parts of ourselves. Sorry for the ramble, your video really got me thinking, thank you so much for your dedication!! (Edits for grammar mistakes, english isn't my first language)
I never really admitted it when the show was happening but Sansa actually was one of my favourite characters after Daenerys and Arya. I could relate a lot to her, back when I was being bullied in primary school I would basically disappear into daydreams about Lord Of The Rings as a way to escape from the misery of real life. And then again in middle school when I was going through verbal abuse and homophobic bullying I would literally fantasize about disappearing into the To Kill A Mockingbird book and living in the small little southern town with Scout and Jem. Also despite the fact that I'm a feminist i do also really enjoy girly feminine things, which can get me scoffed at from other feminists sometimes. Also there is the rather obvious physical similarities that me and Sansa have, dark auburn red hair, slender figures.
My takeaway from Sansa telling Cersei that they were leaving was that Ned could have told her why, but he decided not to because he knew how poorly prepared she was for the adult politics he's worked so hard to avoid specifically because of how brutally artificial it all is.
aaahhh i have been waiting for someone to make an extensive video analyzing her i also think she is one of the most fascinating characters in the series.. and by extension how fascinated i am that george is able to write such complex female characters in his books
Jon and Sansa actually do think of each other but it's in subtext: when Sansa shapes her Alayne Stone personality some traits come to her suddenly and they happen to be Jon's actual traits! E.g. Jon's age, being 'bastard brave', and not being much of a dancer. Meanwhile, Jon seems to note traits associated with Sansa in his relationship with Ygritte: auburn/red hair, singing that he very much enjoys (vs 'he thought of Sansa brushing Lady's coat and singing to herself'), wanting to see Ygritte in a 'pretty dress', when he thinks of all Stark siblings before he dies Sansa's mention is followed by 'you know nothing Jon Snow'. Very interesting to see where George takes this as it's likely intentional that we never see them interact on page unlike other Stark kids 👀
I definitely believe GRRM has intentionally done this. There are heaps more parallels and connections to be made between them, but it's passed over because Jon and Sansa's relationship is 'disguised' under shallow differences (Jon = traditionally masculine, Sansa = traditionally feminine, Jon = associated more so with the North, Sansa = associated more so with the South, even in their respective physical features, but also from a cultural standpoint). The fact that GRRM hasn't had them interact on page, and they don't consciously think of each other much, means that majority of readers will pass over their relationship and consider it insignificant to the narrative but come on... this is GRRM we're talking about here! Everything is done with intention. Sometimes it isn't just about what the authors includes and writes explicitly in the text, but what he omits/writes more implicitly. And I believe that is where Jon And Sansa exist - between the lines, subconsciously, and you have to unveil those surface level differences to get to their cores - and realise they are actually quite similar. For one, both begin the narrative relatively hot-headed, dramatic, and naively idealistic. Jon wishes to take the black and doesn't care what anyone thinks. He believes the NW is full of noble men like Benjen, but he soon learns the cold hard truth. He acts a little stuck-up and arrogant by thinking he's better than everyone, though this disillusioning journey occurs for him and he gets a harsh dose of reality. And the same thing happens For Sansa. Sansa wishes to go South and live this idealistic fantasy, she doesn't want anyone to ruin it and gets similarly defensive about the chivalry of the South and yeah acts like a brat (but she's 11 so I give her leeway on that!). And what happens? She becomes disillusioned and gets that harsh dose of reality, 'there are no heroes.' But importantly, Jon and Sansa continue believe in honour and inherent goodness despite the harshness and trauma they endure. 'Hope prevails despite the darkness,' it's partly the reason they find themselves in the situations they in... (Why Sansa is swept away by LF and Jon is betrayed by his men). There's of course more nuance there, but when you look at it that way... it's certainly intriguing. Opposite social standing parallels certainly occur! Sansa goes from Lady to captive to traitor to bastard. Jon goes from Bastard to captive to traitor to lord. Additionally, both are the only Starks who refer to themselves as the 'blood of winterfell.' Three times for Jon, once for Sansa.Why wouldn't GRRM give this line to Arya and Bran as well? Odd (or intentional). Chapter transitioning can also be noted. GRRM orders the chapters in the way he believes best tell the stories, and there are various Jon/Sansa back-to-back chapters with...interesting themes. The main one that comes to mind is ASOS Jon XII > ASOS Sansa VII: In Jon's chapter, he contemplates lordship, having children, and restoring a burnt and broken WF to his former glory. He reunites with Ghost and reflects on a childhood memory with Robb. Ultimately Jon makes his decision to reject Stannis' offer, though we don't see *why* until ADWD in which it's stated "Winterfell belongs to my sister Sansa." Sansa's chapter involves her waking from a dream about her family, she then also has a memory of Robb, and there's that beautiful snow castle scene. She builds WF in the snow. "The castle was all that mattered." She laments on the snow reminding her of WF "the taste of innocence" and the "taste of dreams." It's a hopeful moment, I just adore it. So to summarise - Jon yearns to rebuild WF, Sansa then builds WF in the snow and draws strength from it, Sansa further thinks of a godswood and how empty she feels without it, Jon additionally thinks of a godswood and laments that Ghost "belongs to the old gods," both have a fond memory of Robb from their childhoods. Now, there are a lot more chapter transitions I could draw from, but this one certainly jumped out to me when I first read ASOS! It's also significant that out of every other character in the series, Jon is the only person who respects and protects Sansa's claim with utterly genuine non-self serving intentions. Robb doesn't want Sansa to inherit because she's 'Lady Lannister' but Jon isn't fooled by that - he consistently states that WF belongs to Sansa, and I think that's so profound for Sansa who believes she is only ever wanted/used for her claim. Here's another awesome parallel that is just, so narratively conclusive and satisfying: "Frog-faced Lord Slynt sat at the end of the council table wearing a black velvet doublet and a shiny cloth-of-gold cape, nodding with approval every time the king pronounced a sentence. Sansa stared hard at his ugly face, remembering how he had thrown down her father for Ser Ilyn to behead, wishing she could hurt him, wishing that some hero would throw him down and cut off his head. But a voice inside her whispered, There are no heroes." (AGOT Sansa, VI). 'I will not hang him," said Jon. "Bring him here." 'Oh, Seven save us," he heard Bowen Marsh cry out. The smile that Lord Janos Slynt smiled then had all the sweetness of rancid butter. Until Jon said, "Edd, fetch me a block," and unsheathed Longclaw." (ADWD Jon, II). I mean....woah.
@@Cherryfxmls yeah, chapter transitions are wild: in ASOS a chapter where Jon is told about Blue Rose/Princess of Winterfell and King beyond the Wall is followed by the chapter of Sansa's 'flowering'. Then when Lysa asks Sansa 'how would you like to marry your cousin?' the next page and chapter is Jon 🤔 Jon dreams of son Robb (note Robb has Sansa's looks), while Sansa dreams of children Bran, Rickon and Arya (note Arya has Jon's look) - it's like two halves of the same list? 🤔 Jon's (Targaryen/Stark) dads choosing a Stark (Lyanna) and a Tully (Catelyn) - Sansa is both (Stark/Tully) 🤔While looking all of this up, I've also come across pics of GRRM and his wife in their youth and well... it's weird LOL
@@sarar1138 you’re corrected. Sansa’s flowering is book-ended by Jon’s chapters where he hears the blue rose story and a flowered Stark maiden being stolen (just as Sansa becomes a flowering Stark maiden). Then Sansa has that conversation with Cersei about love, and the chapter goes once more into Jon. I’ve also noticed, Jon is never quite far from Sansa’a suitors. When she’s first betrothed to Joffrey in Eddard I, Jon’s chapter follows, her betrothal to Willas in Sansa I is followed by Jon again, then Jon’s chapter precedes Sansa being fit for her wedding dress, then that “how would you like to marry your cousin” “no one will ever marry me for love” followed by a Jon chapter once again. And then In her final AFFC chapter , she consciously mentions Jon and thinks of how sweet it’d be to see him and a few lines later Harry the Heir is mentioned. By the end of the chapter Sansa is betrothed to Harry. That’s 5 times Jon is narratively close to her suitors. Then of course there is the Ashford tourney ; someone did a great analysis on Jon’s similarities with Valarr Targaryen - for one, they are both described as “black knights with white guardians” . There are five suitors at this tourney - Baratheon, Lannister, Tyrell, Hardyng… and Targaryen (as the final jouster). Notice how most of them match up with Sansa’a suitors in asoiaf?? Some people think it’s fAegon that Sansa will marry, but I disagree when we have *all this* + more that has been discussed regarding Jon. Jonnel ‘One Eye’ Stark married his half niece Sansa Stark (who is the only other Sansa Stark to exist in canon). Jonnel’s half brother was called Rickon (Sansa’s father) who died pledging his allegiance to a southern king. Jonnel’s mother was also named *Lyarra.* Jonnel and Sansa married to solve the northern succession crisis, though they didn’t have any children from this union, so why would George add it in? In fact, the family tree was already made, he just went back and added *that* specific detail that yes - would be easily be passed over by fans. The ‘One Eye’ addition sells me on this. Because Jon almost loses his eye. Jon almost his eye clawed out by Orell’s eagle, and has a permanent scar. That chapter is followed by a Sansa chapter where she and Margaery talk of flying eagles in Highgarden with Sansa’s future husband at the time - Willas. ADWD prologue involves a warg skin changing into an animal called ‘One Eye’ which is foreshadowing for Jon’s death and how he will warg into Ghost. But the comparisons don’t stop there. Ser Waymar Royce, from the AGOT prologue - was a Night’s Watch ranger described as slender, graceful, grey eyed , and dark haired. If you look at official art of him, he is a spitting image of Jon. Jon is first introduced in the very next Bran I chapter as slender, graceful, grey eyed, and dark. Jon joins the Night’s Watch and acts a bit haughty and arrogant, just as Waymar does. Waymar has that infamous “dance with me then” line, and Jon has that “dance with me anon” line in relation to the Others. When Waymar dies, he comes back as a wight with *one working eye.* After all that, he isn’t really mentioned again . Until Sansa’s chapter in AFFC. She fell “wildly in love with Ser Waymar.” This was a detail that GRRM did not need to add in, since we know that Sansa fawns over men, though it’s been *southern* men. Here she’s shown she is attracted to a “black knight” with northern features who justttt so happens to resemble Jon among other things .. and the “wildly” part reminds me of “wildling” . GRRM could have said “madly” but he said “wildly” - why!? Take a look at George’s previous works - almost all the female love interests are red/auburn haired. Sansa is an obvious romantic figure who resembles a pre-raphaelite painting - George has stated that is his favourite art. George has described Jon as a “brooding Byronic romantic hero” and lets just say, he fits that archetype very well. George has also taken obvious influence from Byron, there’s literary references sprinkled in throughout the series - in fact, there is a “Byron the Beauiful” in Sansa’s Winds chapter. You know what’s interesting about Byron? Many of his works involved the incest motif. In fact, he was rumoured to be in love with his half sister. His famous poem “the bride of abydos” involved two half siblings falling in love with each other until they realise they’re *actually* cousins. I really love talking about Jon and Sansa , I understand they’re villified a lot by the general fandom , but whatever George is doing with them is intriguing as fuck. It’s really really rich with literary , artistic, and subconscious subtext. Veryyy grrm style.
Thinking about what Sansa’s recurring nightmares about Ilyn Payne could mean for her future, I’m wondering if it’s Sansa grappling with what it really means for a ruler to have the power of life and death over their subjects. Because Ilyn Payne isn’t merely a killer. He’s the King’s Justice. He kills in the name of the king. In the very first chapter, we see Ned execute a man, meting out what he sees as justice. And Ned tells his children that he who passes the sentence should swing the sword. He says that having a professional executioner like Payne do it for you numbs you to the magnitude of the act of execution. If Sansa’s future is as a ruler-Lady of Winterfell or Queen in the North-she will be in a position to pass such sentences. However, Sansa will never be someone who swings a sword. If she orders an execution, someone else will carry it out for her. She will be in danger of becoming numb to what that sentence truly means, as Ned warned. Her relationship with Ilyn Payne could be about her having it seared into her consciousness ahead of time how weighty a thing it is to command an execution. I’m thinking this might first be tested by how she deals with Petyr. In the show we saw her sentence him to death and then look him in the eye as Arya executed him. It would be really interesting if we saw his execution from her point of view and witnessed what went on in her head as she watched that sentence being carried out…
I think George kept the separation between Sansa and Jon because they’re going to get married. There is a lot foreshadowing in the books that link Sansa and Jon together, especially with how they see the world and chivalry. John thinks about Sansa in the same times he thinks about magic. Sansa loves songs, and Jon IS the Song of Ice & Fire.
The fact that they don't have a 'strong sibling bond' like Jon and Arya does, would definitely help in them developing romantic feelings, especially when it's revealed they are not actual half-siblings but cousins. And marriage between cousins isn't improbable.
Oh, yay! I’m so happy you made a Sansa video. She’s my favorite character in the book, and I found her very relatable. She reminds me so much of myself and my childhood friends at her age, especially as someone who comes from a rather misogynistic and hierarchical country/culture. I feel like that sort of environment for upper-class girls creates a lot of Sansa’s.
I can tell in this video your phycology background. As a man to understand and have such great sympathy for such a young girl who is also going through one of the hardest changes of a young girls life. You have an amazing understanding of human phycology. Your future children will be very lucky kids. Thank you for understanding the feelings a girl her age go through normally. Let alone what Sansa is going through with all the extra in her life.
Honestly Ned and catelyn sheltered the children so much that they were not in any way prepared for the real world. They believe everyone is good they take everyone at their word.. look at Ned himself he was not ready for kings landing at all. Even Jon is not ready when they named him lord commander. Robb is not ready as king
I started reading/watching game of thrones when I was 14. I always identified most with Sansa-empathizing with her back then due to age and sharing her initial naive outlook very much so. I’m approaching 30 now as an adult who has survived a minefield of SA and domestic violence, and revisiting Sansa is cathartic and comforting for me now in an even greater way. Perhaps there’s something to be said about the link that I might have formed between this character and my own sort of inner child. Regardless, I am so glad to have found a video that truly cares about Sansa as a character and does not dismiss her due to her age or circumstances in the books.
Sansa was the favorite of the two girls. She was also the most Tulley. She also favors the sons who have more of the Tully look than the ones who look like Ned. Being treated as "better than" just because she favored her mother's family probably influenced her relationships with both Jon and Arya.
I definitely agree that is one aspect of it. One part of him very much wants to protect her, however he's also a very complex and fascinating conflict of different parts, so I think there's a lot of stuff going on
love this video! this is the nuanced take i needed on her character, and i appreciate it so much. absolutely love the insight into how circumstances affected sansa's behaviour and development. it's something that's difficult to get across in writing, especially when lots of readers kind of... refuse to read what's in front of their eyes (or expect sansa to have the exact same reactions, thoughts, and emotions as characters who lived in completely different circumstances and are, yk, separate people) (or, as i've noticed with the tv show fans specifically, they get mad at sansa for not doing the thing that the viewer would do, even though her choices make sense with her character) lovely video, thank you for sharing!
thank you so much for this! its amazing! I love Sansa so much! TH-cam doesnt have enough of her and, most part, is because the fandom dont care to understand her. So, thank you so much for it ❤ Love your take on Arya and Sansa relaticion. So much of the fandom hates Sansa for it and Im glas that you address it with so much care. Do you have one video for Jon Snow? I would love to see your takes on him, because the fandom sems to dismiss so much of his personality and his parallels with Sansa in so much of the story. Talking of him, Sansa doesnt think of him explicitly, but she mold her bastard persona in him, I (and part of the fandom) are pretty sure of it. So he is much more present in her mind that we think. Sandor and Ilyn Payne parallels Jon too and maybe this will play out in future books (please George I beg you 😭) Again, thank you so much ❤
Glad you enjoyed it! No Jon yet, but it's early days. I want to make videos on most of the characters. So far I've done Tywin, Tyrion, Jaime (which were all made right after I finished the books for the first time) then Cersei, then Eddard, Catelyn,.Ramsay, and now Sansa. Not sure who will be next or when but I'd imagine either Arya, Jon, possibly Theon
I know this is a character study of a fictional character, but I’ve never related to Sansa and now I realize I’m the Sansa in my sibling group of two. I’ve gained so much insight from this study about my own experiences. Thank you so much. You’ve done a great service.
To be honest, that perfectly sums up why I love doing these videos. It was always about empathy for me. Sometimes for people we know who are like Sansa, sometimes for ourselves without realising is, and sometimes just the experience of getting to feel for someone we don't fully understand. I think it's a really important experience and I certainly gain from making the videos myself, so it's always nice to know when others feel the same. Glad it helped 😊
People tend to react badly to characters who reflect their less heroic tendencies, whether these are calculated or reflexive. It's probably a function of a reasonably healthy ego to believe ourselves the hero of our own story. Nobody wants to be the character who pees themselves in terror when something terrifying happens, or subsides into silence in the face of injustice, or protects themselves from social punishment and ostracism by ignoring bullying, or actively avoids reminders of trauma rather than confronting them. But, in reality, all of us have the potential to be that. Humans do not consistently respond to suffering with defiance or even forbearance. We whinge, we bitch, we tell half-truths, we observe and sometimes engage in bad behaviour and cruelty without interceding, we are paralysed by danger, and it isn't always clear what is the best way forward (or even the least damaging way through), and we're frightened by that and ashamed of it. It's frightening and frustrating to be confronted with a character whose only real power is over whether she gives in to despair and/or cruelty or not, and to witness her bending beneath the pressures around her - because that's far, far more realistic than being a self-actualising hero. I think that if someone can recognise that realism and understand it and forgive it, that's actually really useful, because they might be able to apply that compassion to themselves. We all fail sometimes and we all feel helpless sometimes, and what we should learn from it is compassion.
Beautifully said. When I hear people hate those realistic, vulnerable, flawed but still good characters, I think they need to take a long look in the mirror.
@@mylittlethoughttree Yes! I mean, I might not understand all the bits when it comes to plot, I don't know all the other characters you mention, but you do a great job of painting Sansa so vividly that I feel like I know her even without having read the books. She just comes alive. I don't actually completely need to know the whole context of everything to be able to appreciate an analysis of a "person", if that makes sense. (That being said, I do really appreciate you explaining the plot points at least roughly! It makes it all a lot easier to follow and understand, so thank you. 😁) More than anything, I just really appreciate that it's got a ton of added value even outside of the story itself. You talk about trauma responses and other things that sort of make it educational, it's like you use a fictional character to beautifully illustrate real-world concepts and phenomena, to talk about human psychology in a way that's attractive and digestible even for people who wouldn't care for it otherwise. And you do it with such empathy, gentleness, and genuine curiosity that I feel like it promotes that approach in others, too. That, I feel, is perhaps the most important aspect. No judgement, just a desire to understand, an emphasis on nuance instead of sweeping simplifications, and just so much care and kindness. I hope you never lose that, and I genuinly think the kids you work with are very lucky. My cousin said the video nearly made her cry, she really saw herself in some of the things you talked about. It resonated deeply. So just a small reminder that your content really does touch hearts. Thank you
The constant threat of SA that Sansa lives under (Joffrey, Ser Dontos, Sandor, Tyrion, Littlefinger) is one of the most real and quietly horrifying part of ASOIAF. I lived through something similar when I was around her age, forced to share a space with a child molester, unable to express or fully understand and conceptualize the danger I was in.
Thank you for touching on Sansa and Robert Arryn. I always overlooked him as a character. I’d love to see them grow together and rise above the odds, and remind us as readers that there is goodness in humanity that needs to be protected. I think that makes the events of the white walkers more impactful. It will be interesting to see her be the older sister to Robert and have that sort of relationship with him that she couldn’t necessarily have with Arya. I think, too, this made me reflect on what I thought about Robert, not jumping on the bandwagon that he should be killed off just because he’s so sickly, when I’ve always rooted for characters like Arya or Sansa to rise above the odds
This has made a day of errands genuinely enriching, thank you. Sansa reminds me so much of myself at her age in the books and you nailed describing that mindset. Like, i’m gonna have notes from this for my own therapist lol
I haven't watched GoT nor read ASOIAF, but I've been obsessed with this character for the longest time, Ive seen many clips and video edits of her, as well as read many essays on her. (Note that I don't watch or read the original material mostly because I'm sensitive to gore and tragic and try to avoid it when I can, for my own mental health. I'm a sponge of emotions) Anyways, my fascination for Sansa began when I heard that many people disliked her, found her annoying, whiny, that she was useless, and blablabla. But it only peaked my curiosity. I have a weakness for female characters who are traditionally feminine, with feminine strength, and who remind kind no matter the hardship. Too often, we see fictional women like Arya Stark, who kinda mimics masculine energy, tomboy attitude and people seem to gravitate around that sort of badass female character, and the feminine ones always appear (in the mind of people) weak or useless, or are only there for eye candy or be the damsel in distress, or just ''badass'' when they use their body to get what they want.
Literally, same. I have been obsessed with Sansa ever since I randomly read a fan fiction that centered her and so I decided to look her up and she has become my Roman Empire. I knew about GOT before and was intrigued by edits of Dany and Arya who looked cool, but diving into Sansa is much more fascinating and fun from a narrative perspective. I also, love the clear depth to her character if you observe her critically. I think I’m only willing to read the books if they get completed and she has a happy ending, but it will probably take me as long to finish reading them as it will take GRRM to finish writing them.
@@emta8149 I think I would probably pick up the books if GRRM actually finishes them. I don't want to put myself through all this emotional turmoil if there won't be a conclusion and mostly happy ending lol I'm such an oversensitive person. I know not everyone ships Jonsa, but if you're interested in reading an analysis about them, how they parallel each other, I would suggest you read the Jonsa Compendium. You can easily find it on Google, it'll most likely be the first link. It's super detailed and interesting to read.
I agree, at least at the core of her. If her betrothed for whatever reason brought a bastard home, she wouldn't find it in her to disdain them. She'd probably latch on to any kind of happiness it could give her and she'd protect it's innocence. That's Ned through and through.
Personality wise maybe, looks, gods, being a lady, she feels more like Cat and has a stronger connection to her. Some of that is more superficial but as a child I think she feels like she's closer to Catelyn
Indeed, she takes after Ned the same way Arya takes after Catelyn: Sansa shares her father's ideals of honor and justice, while Arya has her mother's mental and emotional fortitude, as well as her thirst for vengeance!!!!
It was genius of George tell this story through the eyes of children. It makes it even more tragic and inspiring reading these kids adapt, survived, and overcome adversity.
This is a really fantastic video. I always thought Sansa was unfairly hated but I also never particularly cared about her as much as most other characters. This video gives me a completely new perspective on her, though, I may have to reread her chapters with it in mind.
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I always felt that Septa Mordane (intentional or not) low key pitted Sansa and Arya against each other. She made Sansa the standard for Arya to aspire to, and Arya an example of how not to be for Sansa. Like, how can you foster a healthy sibling relationship with that dynamic?
A typical behaviour unfortunately. Grown ups do like to point at the better behaved/more diligent/exemplary child to shame the one they're dissatisfied. Needless to say, it's not doing either one of them any good.
Very this. This is how my brother and I were raised and my mother is so surprised (???) that we don’t keep in touch with each other in our thirties.
They're in medieval times where gender roles are strict, and they're women, so they have to act as ladies. It's easy to understand. Sansa embraced her gender role while Arya denied it. So it's logical that the septa makes Sansa the standard. That's her role to educate them to be proper ladies.
@@franck5599 But they AREN'T in actual medieval history - they're in a medievalist fantasy that, in all honesty, GRRM had to subtly adjust with time. If this is truly one for one with medieval history in our world, where are Cersei's ladies as the queen? Why don't the Starks have more Northern families fostering with them to provide companionship at Winterfell? Why is the rate of death in childbirth for noble women higher in ASOIAF than at any point in our documented history? Why isn't Arya prized for her social ability and her success at sums, things a noble lady who would be in charge of a household would need? The answer is because it is a medievalist fantasy that is affected by the biases of the author.
@@featheredcloak Idc. All that woke bs about "she's pitting girls against girls how sexist of her to do that!!! Septa Mordane is so toxic!!!" while knights kill children, women are r worded every 3 episodes and treason and betrayal is common as water. It was made clear that Westeros is strict about gender roles. Using extreme examples to deny that is dumb. Just because he's copying Europe during medieval times does not mean he has to copy EVERYTHING.
Ned sheltered the girls, he never told them not to trust the Lannisters. The true nature of what could happen when married off. Oleana probably did this with her Granddaughter, which is why she's so cunning and ahead of the Lannister's abuses. You can see there is an open dialogue about who Joffrey is as a person before marriage and how to navigate is implied by Oleana's response "what a pity."
I appreciate this comment! So many fans love Ned that I think they forget that every character in this story has blind spots and none of them are perfect. Ned could have done better by Sansa
Another thing could be that Ned never realized how dangerous the Lannisters could be until it was too late. Ned knew they were unsafe but tried to help his friend and the kingdom. He couldn't comprehend that the Lannisters had so much influence over the court and disregard for laws, and they would do anything to keep their power.
@@TamaraPizhadze Maybe to an extent, the only reason I think Ned's a little more responsible for knowing is that he's a war veteran and has seen the extremes of Westerosi politics in person. Cat was a Princess in a tower most of her life. Ned has met Jaime and most likely been in proximity to Tywin. A man known for murdering innocent women and children for political gain. Hes seen how a Stark in Kings landing is not as Invincible as they are in Winterfell. Cat, Robb, Ned, Jon, Sansa, Arya, even book Bran. They all make huge lapses in judgment on the honor of other houses in almost an arrogant and sheltered way. It's their houses biggest flaw, being the opposite of a Lannister who doesn't care on the opinions of "sheep", self-righteousness. Pragmatism could've saved them in many ways.
Crazy thing is that he pretty much told Arya that "yeah the Prince is bad but hey I will still let your sister marry him"
Love Ned but bro wasn't perfect
@@TamaraPizhadze Ned saw first hand what the Lannisters were capable of, he was just naïve to the reality of what Robert let go on.
I so appreciate that you chose pictures that portray Sansa in an age-appropriate way. She's a child, but there is SO much sexualized fanart of her out there
Agreed, however to be fair most people associate Sansa to Sophie Turner who was 23 by the end of GoT, so they don't see her as she is in the book character
I had to sift through a billion romanticised pictures of her and Sandor, or her and Tyrion. Some of them were very uncomfortable
omg the show is infinitely worse imo! at least the fanart doesn’t subject an underage sophie to all the writers pervy nonsense 😒🤢🤯
Ugh, creeps all over the shop…
@@mylittlethoughttree oof 🤢
I feel like discussions about Sansa should be premissed with the reminder to everyone that at the start of the series...she is only 11.
Exactly, and the series made her much older, that is why people who don't know the books can't make sense of her behaviour and despise her. Sophie Turner is a good actress but she looked waaaaaay too mature.
This is why I feel any asoiaf show should be animated. You've got to convey the children as children, and they've got to stay a similar age, even when years pass for each season
@@stefaniamatusik9828 the show only started with her being 2 years older than her book counterpart though, 13 is not really that much different or really that much more mature or self aware.
@@mylittlethoughttreethis is one major reason for not making a proper adaptation of books like Logans run as the age in the books and film make it not work, however in that case they departed considerably from the book to make it work
@@CaptainPikeachuan enormous amount of growth occurs between 11 to 13, that’s the age of puberty for moat girls. The social, psychological, and physical changes are dramatic. Besides, the Sansa in the show didn’t look 13. She looked maybe 14 at the youngest. More like roughly 16
In the book, Sansa is one of my favorite characters. I just always love how she persists through all of the horrors she has to endure and she doesn't break. She's maturing, yes, and learning how to play the game of thrones from Littlefinger, but she hasn't lost herself to hatred and cruelty like Cersei. She is still a kind soul and she is persevering through all of the suffering. It is nice to see that good and kindness can endure through malice and evil.
you couldn’t have said it better, she’s such a good example of how much hope there actually is in asoiaf, which so many people tend to overlook
„I will remember, Your Grace," said Sansa, though she had always heard that love was a surer route to the people's loyalty than fear. If I am ever a queen, I'll make them love me.“
how could you not love her 😭
❤❤❤
A kind soul? she's definitely not unkind, but saying she's kind is wild when she bullied Arya, name calling and even about her friend dying and blames her for everything even tho it was her lying that caused most of it.
I agree somewhat, I think it’s remarkable she came through the King’s Landing trauma with the ability to still empathise and didn’t let herself be crushed by everything.
But Winds Sansa is definitely going down a darker path with Littlefinger. She has some pretty alarming thoughts about Sweetrobin and seems more and more open to scheming and deception, she has some pretty unkind and judgemental thoughts about many people in those chapters.
She’s courteous and she is learning the game of thrones, but it’s clear she’s going to be willing to do dishonourable things that hurt people in the end.
She’s not a great critical thinker and she IS a snob, we see several other noble womens’ perspectives and she looks down on others more than basically anyone but Cersei, including younger ones like Dany, Arya and Brienne.
She’s flawed. She’s got some good points but also negative ones. It’s not black and white.
I like book Sansa much more than show Sansa. She’s so haughty and cold and willing to believe the worst of Arya, but that’s partially Dan and Dave and partially Sophie Turner’s unfortunate acting choices.
So well put. I never related to her until now.
When people are in survival mode, they often do not think of loved ones in a form of dissociation. That she did not think of John doesn’t necessarily indicate she does not care, rather she is focused on survival and cannot not allow the luxury of emotions. It’s one of the reasons attachment disorder develops, while usually seen in children neglected during critical developmental periods, it can develop, to a lesser extent, in older children. Sensa, was still a child, people lose track of that fact.
Yes, I can confirm that from personal experience. I was a perfectly normal kid with a great childhood, but I lost both my parents as a teenager. Left me with a real nice case of dissociative disorder. The severe depersonalization I experienced afterwards kinda healed itself over time, but I still struggle with connecting with and caring about other people. Never married, never had kids, no real career despite above average intelligence.
People who have never experienced severe trauma rarely understand, how fundamentally it messes you up. And that your behavior afterwards has little to do with whether or not you are a 'good person'.
Now you point that out, it seems really obvious. Weird oversight on my part, guess that's one downside to rushing this!
@raraavis7782 Yes, exactly! It’s why people who have develop coping mechanisms can be labeled as uncommunicative or callous. Their affect has changed because of past trauma, but it is not indicative of how they actually feel or how they are affected. I truly hope you have gotten the help you need to begin to heal and that the memory of your loved is a blessing to you. No one has the right to judge how someone else handles loss, as long as they are harming others, people have the right to process grief and trauma in the manner beat conducive to their healing. I have a fairly intensive, high risk job and (many years ago at 19) served as a volunteer paramedic in a war zone. Consequently, in emergency situations I instantly become absolutely calm and unemotional. I switch to problem solving and triaging. I have actually been told by Post 1 before, after relaying coordinates, that while he was glad the situation was locked down and under no immediate threat, he had to say he was afraid I was in shock. I have had to explain that no, I’m not in shock, I’m just incapable of getting emotional about anything until the danger has passed, then I process it from a controlled environment. In the moment, logic is the only way I can process anything, nothing matters beyond what needs to occur and what steps I have to take to complete that task.
@mylittlethoughttree You provided two hours of excellent content, I think you get a pass. Also, people who have firsthand exposure to trauma tend to recognize it in others.
Talk about projection just because the show sucked. It’s okay to admit it
I genuinely found it so smart how she pleaded for mercy for her father. Like, her just out right saying joffrey (and others) was wrong to call him a traitor isn’t smart but betraying her father isn’t the best decision either. Her smart thinking definitely could’ve worked on a more reasonable and respectful audience, and was a good decision especially from a CHILD
Seriously! Pleading that yes he committed treason but he was heavily drugged at the time due to his injury and in pain and someone took advantage of his weakened state and lied to him while he wasn't in a clear state of mind was so damn smart and nobody acknowledges that enough.
@@margaretconnor5623 Varys immediantly took the opportunity to save Ned by using her words..this should b enough to understand that she was using a good idea.
I will always hate when Sansa is compared to Cersei in terms of views on class. Is Sansa stuck up? Absolutely, but Cersei is so paranoid and self-obsessed that she sees the lives of those “below” her as disposable. Sansa, though she can look down on people or see interacting with them as “improper,” still values their lives and thinks it’s important to protect them. I think Jeyne Poole is a great example. She thinks of Jeyne as beneath her a few times in the narrative, but ultimately when Littlefinger and Cersei tell her they’re “taking her away,” Sansa is there desperately trying to defend her, saying she’s “good,” etc. It’s so heartbreaking because Sansa has no idea what is actually happening but she’s the only one there who places any value on Jeyne’s life. Also, her singing for the city in the sept during the Blackwater, saying “if I am queen I will make them love me,” etc. She still clearly thinks it’s important to take care of people. I feel like Sansa gets so much shit for her “highborn” attitude because she’s put in direct comparison to Arya, who is honestly kind of an exception because since Arya doesn’t fit the expectations set for her she has to find a new place to belong. Sansa definitely has to do so deconstructing of the views she grew up with about class superiority and gender expectations, but when you’re a child who fits those expectations and is under pressure to conform to them, it can be hard to question them. I was a typical “honors student” as a kid and I feel like I get her in that regard haha. Anyway I absolutely loved this video.
really insightful :)
she’s my baby your honour, ik sansa isn’t perfect but i just love her sm. she’s literally just a girl™️
she‘s just… a little girl trying to do the best she possibly can, to live up to absolutely ridiculous expectations placed on her, to do everything „right“, constantly, with very limited resources available to her. and people give her crap for not handling the pressure well.
I encountered people online hating on Sansa Stark before I had ever read the books or seen the show. When I finally did, I was surprised to learn that was was only 11 YEARS OLD at the beginning of the first book. Yes, she was immature and made a lot of mistakes, sometimes coming off as annoying - but it makes SENSE that she did all these things; she was acting like a child because she WAS A CHILD. From the way people were talking about her, putting all the blame on her for all her mistakes and everything that went wrong, I would have thought she was at least 17.
Sansa committed the biggest crime a fictional character can make - be annoyingly childish (even tho she is a child who should be annoying)
@@CaptainPikeachu Nah, her worst crime was being a girly girl. I see far fewer people shit on Arya, despite her also being annoying and childish on occasion - because at least she's being childish in a non-girly way. People, especially people online, tend to be absolutely horrible towards and about teenage girls and their interests
it's one of the main issues with the books in general. most of the characters are very young children, barely teenagers. also GRRM has a tendency to make them act too mature for their age at times, while making them age appropriate at others. so readers end up forgetting just how young they are.
did she lie in the book? about who attacked whom at the riverside? she got lady killed...she got the butcher boy killed, because SHE wanted to be queen and married to joffrey..fuck her!
How can people blame her for literally being sold to some of the most evil men I’ve ever seen portrayed on screen??? She was a victim. But people love to victim blame…
1:25:46 never heard someone so succinctly describe the challenge of being a conventionally desirable young woman in a world where the people around you expect you to conform to their liking for their reasons, and you're balancing being submissive enough to keep yourself safe while also developing your own desires and personality. It's incredibly relatable and amazing that George is able to understand and articulate the catch-22 position that Sansa and most young women in general encounter once their red flower starts to bloom.
One thing i think should be mentioned is that Ned lost almost all his family the last time Starks traveled south, and especially the death of his sister Lyanna seems to weigh heavy in his mind.
And Arya is said to look and act almost identically to her, so Ned tunnelvisions on trying to prevented his sisters fate repeating with Arya. Which leads to him neglecting guiding Sansa on how to deal with the southron politics.
Ned seems to still be haunted by the death and destrution of Roberts rebellion.
even if need wanted he wouldnt be able too he doesnt have the understanding necessary to guide sansa
So because he had trauma, he’s allowed to neglect one daughter and spoil the other one. Got it.
@@misskate3815 uh, no? No one said that. It's just an explanation of his behavior not a justification
@@blahblahblahblah729 really? Because the way Ned Stans use it, it sounds an awful lot like an excuse. And he used it as an excuse himself, consciously or not.
I agree, I think it’s interesting though considering that while Arya reflects Lyanna the most in looks and personality - even Sansa has a bit of Lyanna in her.
The way she’s described as being wilful around Lady in Winterfell, and similar to Lyanna in that they both loved and cried at songs. Lyanna was just as much a fan of songs, in Meera Reed’s story, she cries at Rhaegar playing the harp. This is something Sansa would do.
She’s also remarkably like a young Ned in how quiet she is, possibly expecting people to act in a way she predetermines in her head. That’s just something I’ve observed, so can’t say it’s correct, but it does make me wonder if Ned ever realised that comparison himself.
One underrated moment you didn't talk about was this
Sansa went to Ser Lancel and knelt beside him. His wound was bleeding afresh where the queen had struck him.
"Madness," he gasped. "Gods, the Imp was right, was right . . ."
"Help him," Sansa commanded two of the serving men. One just looked at her and ran, flagon and all. Other servants were leaving the hall as well, but she could not help that. Together, Sansa and the serving man got the wounded knight back on his feet. "Take him to Maester Frenken." Lancel was one of them, yet somehow she still could not bring herself to wish him dead. I am soft and weak and stupid, just as Joffrey says. I should be killing him, not helping him.
I feel like highlights everything about kingslanding Sansa. Despite everything that happened she is still a good and gentle person. She even shows mercy towards Lancel, someone who was horrible to her, and saves his life. Sansa's first instinct is to do good and help, even if they are her enemy. And while she sees it as a weakness because of her insecurities it is arguably her biggest strength. And it is also the reason why she is my favorite character. Amazing video
Ahhhhh thanks for commenting this!! I compiled tonnes of quotes when I reread all her chapters, then highlighted all of the ones from that list that I wanted to use in the video. This bit was one of them, so I don't know how I missed it out. It's a great moment that conveys so much
Definitely this! Sansa's the Stark who tries to retain her humanity and compassion the most in the books and yet people act as if she's the devil incarnate/ Cersei 2.0.
I don't understand why people detest Sansa so much. She's a young teenage girl, powerless and alone for much of the story. She's not a warrior, she doesn't have any magical powers, how else do people expect her to behave? Far more flawed characters seem to get cut a lot more slack.
sansa is an entitled airhead
See how they treat teenage girls and their interests in the real world.
I think that’s exactly why people hate her. She isn’t one of the badass characters that do things impossible for the reader, she’s a mirror for the audience. A (relatively) regular girl with no special power and who’s really into fantasy stories. She’s who the reader would be if they were actually a character. And people’s knee-jerk reaction to that is to be defensive of their own “unspecialness” by lashing out at Sansa.
@@lauxantillesImportant ^^
I agree. Also,anyone who thinks she is a wimp is mistaken. She develops into a strong individual who does the best she can with what she has been given. She has more depth of character than her sister.
Close to 2 hours? Yes!!!
Sansa has a great growth arc in the books. Can't wait for TWOW to learn more about it.
As if TWOW will ever be released 😅
Controversially, I actually think Sansa going to Cersei was a really great moment of growth for her.
She actually disobeys an authority figure to get what *she* wants! She stopped passively accepting whatever was expected of her, and took agency over her own life. It's such a tragedy that the circumstances made it a huge mistake, rather than a first victorious step out of people pleasing her life away.
That's a great point!
Oh, I didn't even think of it that way. It's bittersweet that her first attempt to take control or exert any force in the world of adults backfired so terribly. :'(
it‘s also perfectly logical for her. she absolutely idealises Cersei as the embodiment of everything she wants to be, the ultimate authority in her head. Sansa probably can’t even imagine that Cersei isn‘t like her, because she sees Cersei as more of a trope the heroine can appeal to.
Sansa actually feels happy and seen and like she‘s finally rewarded for all her efforts. She‘s just trying to prevent something she‘s absolutely sure will make her unhappy for no good reason except some cruelty of fate.
Sansa seems like she genuinely doesn’t have any idea of what she‘s doing and what‘s happening around her - partially because no one ever bothered to sit down with her and explain the reality of what‘s going on. if her naivety is being actively enabled, then you can‘t really blame her for being naive…
also it‘s really kind of significant that for the first time, she‘s actively doing something for her own happiness (or the attempt) rather than for other people and approval and appearances - only for it to immediately backfire. she probably had some massive guilt over that, and no one to offer actual sympathy or understanding or comfort in the fallout. no wonder she takes so long to even vaguely start choosing for herself again….
@@atlas956 Yes, Sansa actually wants to live in the capital, with all the arts, culture, and court life. That's exciting for her! She's always been "the good girl", and it's paying off now. She has grown up sheltered in Winterfell, with largely trustworthy people, always rewarded for good behaviour. Those are the rules she has been raised by; be good and get rewarded. All her dreams are coming true!
And then her father wants to take it all away. Even before, when Lady is killed, the choice for Sansa is completely losing her belief in how the world works, a way in which she controls her outcomes by behaving - or realising that little girls get married off to monsters even if they are good girls, and end up the property of people who will hurt them for life.
Of course Sansa deliberately holds on to the veil of childish belief! Of course she holds on to the belief that she can have things turn out fine if she follows the rules, rather than accepting being powerless to stop being hurt.
Sansa wants so badly to believe that her dreams are still coming true, and that she isn't trapped in a nightmare.
And she does what she feels she has to, to ensure that idealised future, when her father seeks to take it away from her, and replace it with something else of his choosing, not hers.
Wow that's a great observation
A lot of hatred for Sansa springs from her being an innately feminine character. They’ll deny it, but if you ask most people they’ll turn up their noses at outwardly feminine characters. You’ll ask “favorite female fictional character” and most people will always answer action heroes like Ellen Ripley or Furiosa (and don’t get me wrong, I love them too!). Being feminine is still very looked-down upon in our culture when it comes to individualism, even as female beauty is prized so highly. Sansa loves embroidery and dancing and has aspirations of courtly love and living her life like a bard’s song, so she is deemed “silly” and useless while a rough-and-tumble character like Arya, who rejects and scorns femininity, is seen as aspirational by the fandom.
people don't hate her femininity, or rather not a lot. it is the refusal of the stans to aknowledge her flaws, her mistakes, infantalising sansa. she is an airhead and blunders a lot. it isn't because she is girly but her choices and the consequences.
Nah she just annoying
they also made arya and brienne both so misogynistic in the show, when in the books, you know, it wasn't their authentic just "i'm not like other girls, was raised by my older brothers/ whatever" shit, but they actually feel like, if they could be feminine they'd take the chance, but they just can't. both brienne and arya thinks that its their looks, unlike cersei type of misogyny like "she was cursed to live in a womans body, supposed to be born a man" etc. brienne dreams of being a wife, a lady, but she just cant, same with arya, like it doesnt work for her
@@CChrissssssy So is Arya, but Sansa is an annoying girly girl which a major crime nowadays. People always say feminine girly girl characters are annoying because everyone nowadays hates extremely feminine characters. Arya is annoying as hell at times but she's a tom boy who likes non feminine things so when she's being an annoying child people praise her. But when Sansa is being an annoying child 'she's just so annoying and stupid and silly and I hate her'. The hatred she gets from so many fans is not because she's 'just annoying'. It's because they find a girl being very feminine to be annoying
While I do agree that many people in this fandom might hate her out of misogynistic reasons and others dislike her extremely childish "girlhood", I must also say that there is a much, MUCH bigger reason to dislike her.
What she does, as understandable from her perspective as it is, goes exactly against characters you root for. You like Arya, Ned, Jon, Robb and Sansa, especially in the first book, acts in ways that bring those people harm. So you start to dislike her for that. And then, when you start to like her, she does things that are - from an all knowing readers perspective - supremely stupid. I mean, if a half-burned serial killer, who worked for the person who abused you told you to come with him right in thr middle of a siege, you probably would nlt trust him. But we the readers know the Hound means well and wouldn't harm her. So her not coming woth him and trusting the obviously evil littlefinger seems idiotic. But to her one is very clearly evil and the other guy a somewhat sleezy, half-way competant plolitician who is in love with her mom. Not the best choices, but one is definitly more trustworthy.
People dont necessarily dislike her womanly behavior, its what that behavior ends up causing. Her behavior is annoying to many people, due to the show. In the books, we find out some things later and can therefore excuse her behavior, since we all also didn't know. But in the show, we knlw beforehand hlw utterly stupid she acts and since they understandably didn't cast an 11 year old girl, peopel do imagine her as quite a bit older. Most of her actions are so easily excusable, due to her being 11. But in the show we see her as 16, maybe 17. She doesn't come off as an innocent child making mistakes, but as a teenager who is dumb as a rock and endangers everyone. So yeah, most of the hatred comes from what her actions caise, rather than the actions themselves.
I always liked Sansa (in the ear;y seasons), even though I felt she was annoying during season 1. What really surprised me though is how much more likable she is in the books. Seeing things from her perspective made her so much better for me, and she is one of my favorites now.
She is an interesting, intelligent and perspective character. Her main issue is how passive she’s forced to be since she spent most of the books a prisoner. I think that’s why so many hate her, and the surface level reading, she call herself an idiot a few times and peoples believe her like they believe Tyrion when he says he’s so smart. Glad you enjoyed the character hehe
I always really appreciated sansa as a character for her intelligence (like how she improvised an excuse to save Dontos' life) but i never actually picked up on the angle of her resilience of character in terms of her never compromising her kindness and respect for the vulnerable. I think in a world like asoiaf its easy for something like that to be lost in the noise of practically everyone being either evil or cynical. This video has made her probably my new favourite character
Sansa is easily one of the most nuanced and well written characters in the series.
Keep in mind, while Sansa is in the Vale under Petyr Baelish ”protection”, her sister Arya is an apprentice in the House of Black and White, learning how to become an faceless assassin by the Kindly Man and her younger brother Bran is learning more about his greenseeing powers from Bloodraven.
All the remaining Stark children (aside from Rickon and maybe Jon Snow, if he is resurrected) are under control by mentors who want to use them for their own purposes and I think the next step for the Stark-kids is to reject the darker aspects their mentors try to thrust upon them. So no, I don’t think Sansa will become a Cersi 2.0 or a Littlefinger 2.0. She learn from them sure, but in the end I don’t think she will be like them.
One more thing, it’s only a tiny little detail and I’m not upset you missed it, there is probably a lot of things to read and analyze, but Sansa didn’t mean to rip Sweetrobin’s doll. When he started to ruin her snow castle, she tried to grab his arm to stop him, but grabbed his doll instead and then it ripped. I just wanted to make that clear.
Yeah that's how I see it, too. The chew the fat and spit out the gristle idea. I hadn't considered how well it also lines up with Bran and Arya, though, thanks!
I believe she already rejected Cersei's influence when Cersei tries to give her own brand of comfort to Sansa during the Battle of the Blackwater.
Sansa listened to Cersei's advice, disagreed with her (Cersei) methods and then vowed to make the people love her when she's Queen and in doing so, she would be different from Cersei, who relies on fear and intimidation to get her subjects to do her bidding.
I think Sansa is so much more like her father they’re both patient very internal they think before they act not rash and they can be overly trusting to their own downfall and they share a strong sense of honor but Arya and catelyn are very rebellious they don’t trust people easily and they’re quick to action and they don’t have a general sense of empathy to everyone around them just the people they care about where Sansa and Ned show compassion for people they’ve never even met
I think people fall into the trap of thinking that because Arya is more masculine that she’s automatically more like Ned and because Sansa looks like Cat she must be like her but I don’t think that’s the case at all
I would generally agree, however I think she has a closer relationship to Cat, and considers herself more like Cat as a child. Her personality is closer to Ned but I also don't think she consciously sees that at the beginning
I relate to Sansa character so much. Sometimes watching her episodes makes me tear up.
sometimes i can't even think about sansa without getting emotional because i just find her so relatable. her arc means a lot of things to me but bottomline grrm captures the violent shift from girlhood to womanhood so perfectly
Sansa in the first book reminds me of a kid who grew up on Disney princess stories and expected life to be that way. Her telling Cersei about Ned’s plan to leave is that rebellious heroine trope that works out for Disney princesses like the Little Mermaid (“but daddy I love him!”)
The thing is though Sansa knew how bad Joffrey was but wanted to be a princess more
I also grew up with princess stories, had princess dresses every birthday, but as I grew old I realized that I'm viewing my life from a villain's perspective. Life sucks, people sucks and I'm beginning to look like Ursula.
@@DavidCarradinesBelt Sansa did see Joff for what he was -- and on an intuitive level, such as in her dreams, you can tell she knew it deep down -- but her mind overrides the evidence before her eyes in favor of a fantasy of the 'perfect prince' because that's what she believed and also what she wanted.
@@DavidCarradinesBelt Hmm. If u actually read the books, Sansa had memory issues (e.g. having memory of sandor kissing her but it's not the case), etc. So the scene kinda fits.
Sansa's greatest sin, imo was simply because she was a young girl who was acting like a young girl, and people take offense to that. There is at times an inherent animosity towards girls that are traditionally feminine and its perception as weakness. There are definitely some misogynistic undercurrents when it comes to the Sansa backlash. We shouldn't be expecting a child to have the wisdom of a grown person, and I'd wager in retrospect even a grown woman wouldn't have all the information available to her to act completely appropriately in Sansa's situation at King's Landing. I know I wouldn't. There is so little grace for children when they act like children in extreme circumstances. Just because trauma is underway doesn't change their age or maturity level. We can't expect them to be more than what they are just because an extreme situation is taking place.
This! They get mad at her femininity!!
Sansa has been my favourite character in A Song of Ice and Fire since her political awakening in King's Landing. I distinctly remember the exact moment it clicked for me, when during a Tyrion POV chapter soon after he arrived in the capital, he notices Sansa working the crowd of nobles, and thinks to himself that she is quite good at this. It was the first opportunity we'd had to see Sansa through someone else's eyes since she was separated from her family, and especially coming from the POV character we'd come to associate with cunning political maneuvering, to have him not only see her as something of a peer, but to also PRAISE her was enormous. I've loved her development, and of everyone we've met along the way, hers is the only story that I *DESPERATELY* need to have a happy ending. For someone who has been treated as a tool and weapon for everyone else's games, I want Sansa to come out of this living a life of HER choosing, whatever shape that takes.
I paused a half hour into the video to write this comment, and I have to say that I adored your breakdown of the Sansa/Arya relationship. I think it's telling that for both of them throughout their many POV chapters, it's each other that they think of most often, and they both have the same reaction, each time: They are caught off guard and surprised that they think of their sister fondly, when all they ever knew was conflict. As someone with 7 brothers and sisters, that's such a relatable experience of the early years of leaving home and living apart. Once the pressure isn't there to set yourself apart by emphasizing those things that make you different from each other, the common ground you share is able to be seen for what it is. I so hope they get a reunion. My silly fantasy scene is for Sansa to somehow encounter Nymeria (who we hear repeated references to as leading a giant pack of wolves roaming the countryside), and for there to be a recognition between them, or even just recognition on the part of Nymeria that Sansa is kin.
The reason I paused here was because you'd just concluded the section on Jon Snow, and asked the question of why Sansa never thinks of him. I think it's to do with the earlier observations that Sansa only sees herself (or at least only saw herself as a child) as being a highborn lady. She doesn't even really see people as PEOPLE so much as they are their titles, their societal roles, their professions. She almost never uses people's names, and as you illustrated, doesn't connect with people as people. She even explicitly calls Jon her "bastard half-brother" - notably the only Stark child to ever refer to him as anything less than a brother - but I never saw any malice in it. She didn't hate Jon, or think of him as lowly. She just matter-of-factly labeled him (accurately, I might add) as being legally and societally outside her family, no more a close relative than Theon Greyjoy. Speaking of which, I'm sure that she would have seen Theon's betrayal of Robb and Winterfell as breaking an oath, and being generally dishonourable, but I doubt it ever would have crossed her mind that it was scandalous due to him having been a ward at Winterfell, and Robb having looked upon Theon as a brother. That was simply beyond the scope of how Sansa saw the people around her as she grew up. Her siblings were Robb, Bran, Arya, and Rickon. Theon was a ward, and Jon Snow (who I imagine she typically called by his full name) was a bastard half-brother.
So, when Sansa doesn't think about Jon, even while experiencing life as a bastard, it's because she just simply didn't have a strong connection to him. Tellingly, she DOES think of him when she builds the snow castle in the Eyrie, because she's reliving memories of WINTERFELL, and that's how she associates with Jon. Jon Snow was NOT a part of her family; Jon Snow was a part of Winterfell. Given how close Jon was with Arya, I suspect that Sansa simply saw him as another one of the castle riff raff that her sister spent time with instead of learning to be a proper lady like she should have. She no more hated Jon than she hated the stable boy. She also didn't love Jon any more than the stable boy, either. She doesn't think of the stable boy after leaving home, so why should we be surprised or confused that she doesn't think of Jon? He just wasn't an important part of her life.
Well put!!
❤
really insightful
It's astounding how the deeper we dig into each and every one of the many characters in ASOIAF, the more sense everything makes. GRRM is truly a genius writer, and beyond that, the kind of wisdom and understanding of people and life one would need to be able to get all of that so right, even down to the psychology and emotions of a teenage girl is unfathomable
This is the most refreshing video I’ve ever encountered on sansa. Genuinely. I’ve been defending her online for years ! The vitriol towards her is unjust and over the top. The amount of accounts I have blocked on tumblr ughhh anyway this is a great analysis 😅
I live under too much of a rock to see most fan opinions beyond the comments I get, but I've heard it can be very intense 😅 I always generally just hope videos like these encourage such people to be more understanding. Sometimes I think it works
@@mylittlethoughttree I posted about your video on tumblr since I really loved it and thought other people should give it a watch and have already had about 450 accounts interact with it. It’s been very well received over there !!! Sansa has been the most hated character of asoiaf since her conception, and people still actively hate her. But it’s good video essays like these that shed much needed light on her character, and all the nuance she has. I’m excited for more to come 🫶
@@Cherryfxmls oh wow, thank you! That's genuinely made me smile. The main thing I've always wanted to do with my channel is encourage empathy, so I'm glad it's being well recieved
Been REALLY looking forward to this one, Sansa is one of my favourite characters
This is probably one of the best takes on Sansa I've ever seen! You pulled out so much of the things I love about her, without glossing over the dark parts or romanticising trauma (I love the way you discussed her relationship with Sandor - it is so interesting, but far too often people simplify it and talk about it as a romance, overlooking the SA/trauma). I hope we someday get to see how her full arc plays out in TWOW and ADOS. I feel like her arc has the capacity to be one of the most powerful - I love how you described it with her seeing and understanding the ugliness of the world, but still choosing to believe that there is beauty worth fighting for. That has always been the core of her character, in my opinion.
I think Sansa “hadn’t thought of Jon in ages” because she never really talked to him in the first place. She probably sees him kind of how one might see a more distant relative. I have a lot of first cousins and I don’t really talk to some of them much because we don’t really click. You know each other and you know you’re related but because you don’t spend time with each other you don’t tend to think about each other. She’s been thinking about the siblings she was close with and interacted with and has also been processing her grief for them on top of that. I think she probably views Jon as more of Robb’s friend who she doesn’t really know, probably similar to Theon even
The way I interpret the "Arya would make friends with anybody" is more as a bitter disappointment directly to do with Arya seeming to prefer Mycah's company to Sansa, rather than Sansa envying Arya's ability to make friends. Robb and Jon had each other, and I'm sure little Sansa was oh so excited when she got a baby sister! Finally, a sibling for her to do things with! But then Arya turns out to be "half a boy and half a wolf cub". Then Bran, then Rickon. Sansa does "get" a sibling to be her companion in "girl stuff", and I think *that* makes Sansa feel lonely, and very bitter about how Arya seems to like everyone better than she likes Sansa.
Oh absolutely, I tried to make this point: why not me? Why a smelly butcher's boy? I think it's both points. You've worded it very well there
Yeah. It’s kind of ironic how the greater audience of GoT also disliked Sansa for seemingly no reason (to me, someone who always loved her). It’s this general disdain for femininity that confuses and hurts Sansa.
@@unionunicorn6776 Claiming people dont like Sansa for no reason is a reach. The first book is full of them.
I've been waiting for this and was not disappointed! Sansa is my favorite character and relate to her quite a bit because of some things I experienced as a child. Sansa's story shows us that sometimes the best and most heroic thing you can do is just make it to the next day.
In my opinion, the idealisation of the South by Sansa parallels the idealisation of Westeros by Dany. Another parallel lies in the duty to the family that is forced upon them (Sansa and Joffrey, Dany and Drogo), however Dany recognises that she is being sold like a slave, while Sansa doesn't immediately understand her position as a pawn in the larger game of thrones. This might be the age difference between the two, or the fact that Dany did not grow up sheltered the way Sansa did. Overall, George is so good at writing young girls.
it amazes me how well GRRM portays sisterhood and sibling rivalry. as the older sister i relate so much to sansa, my parents always seemed to favor my little sister despite her being much more badly behaved. there is a constant unspoken jealously between sisters, especially during childhood and adolescence. it wasnt until adulthood that my sister and i were able to talk out our personality differences and that all of our problems were rooted in jealousy or just wanting to spend time with each other and being too stubborn to admit it. your analysis is fantastic, and even more so GRRM’s writing and portrayal of sisterhood is near perfection.
I like the part about how she was sheltered, not taught to play by her family. The contrast is seen to Margery who became near perfect under the scheming Tyrells, particularly Olenna
This is making me a need a “The Psychology of The Mountain and The Hound”
I always loved Sansa and protected the character. Most realistic character in the series
I've always interpreted her fear of Ilyn Payne as a confrontation with mortality and death. Death was present in the world she grew up in, but it never became personal until her journey south with the deaths of Lady and Ned and so many others. She's still a child and even though she's aware of death as a concept, she's now being forced to acknowledge it as a universal reality. While Ned was the one to kill Lady, Ilyn Payne was the one who was originally going to do it, so Sansa probably projected those painful feelings on him rather than her father. And he solidified himself as her symbol of Death when he executed Ned. I think the narrative purpose of her fear of Payne is to contrast her and Arya's relationship with death, Sansa being much more fearful and Arya being a little too comfortable.
Man, this was totally worth the wait. Bravo! Might watch it another time or too just to really sink my teeth in. I find Sansa's character so interesting largely because she's both a character you've seen over and over again in stories (the beautiful princess tragically locked away and needing to be rescued) and also a character that you never see in stories (an inside look at what it would actually *be like* to be that princess who can do nothing but endure being trapped while endlessly hoping for rescue).
I wanted to mention in regards to your question about her saying she hasn't thought of Jon in a long time that I think she isn't *aware* of having thought of him in a long time. She hasn't consciously thought of him, just like she hasn't thought of Jeyne Poole for a really long time-it's too big to deal with. She knows Littlefinger took charge of Jeyne and then Jeyne disappeared forever. The implications are terrifying, and she can't let herself acknowledge them. Jon is the one member of her family that she *knows* is still out there and, in fact, knows pretty much exactly where he is. No matter what their relationship was before, she probably knows that he could offer her a sense of family and home that she can no longer get anywhere else (as far as she knows). But there's no way she could ever get to him. That bit of home is out there but always out of reach. It's safer not even to let herself dream, at least while she's in King's Landing.
Then in the Vale, she has to start living as a nobleman's bastard, and she creates this persona of Alayne seemingly from scratch. Yet, the aspects of Alayne she gets to choose for herself seem to recall Jon. She makes Alayne 14 instead of her actual 13. Jon was 14 the last time Sansa saw him. She calls Alayne "bastard brave," but where would she get the idea that bastards are particularly brave compared to anyone else? She worries that Alayne might not like to dance, even though Sansa herself loves dancing. Why would Alayne dislike dancing just because she's a bastard? In ADWD, we see Jon refuse to dance with Alys at her wedding. It's possible that Jon himself doesn't particularly like to dance. It seems that Jon could be present in Sansa's *subconscious* when she's creating her Alayne persona.
Then, of course, Myranda confronts her with the news that Jon is now Lord Commander of the Nights Watch, and just as you mentioned in your video, here in the Vale she has more breathing room to begin processing her experiences. It's safer to allow herself to yearn for what she wants, and so she is able to consciously acknowledge that Jon is her only remaining family (as far as she knows) and that she longs to see him again.
This comment has grown very long, but I just wanted to share my take on Sansa supposedly not having thought of Jon for a long time! Once again, loved the video, and I really really hope you get to collab with Quinn the GM in future because his videos are among my faves. Maybe when he finally finishes law school. XD
Ohh so excited to watch this, I have been looking forward to it so much! Sansa is such a wonderful character, I truly believe she represents the average fantasy reader, which many of us do not want to admit- I think this is why she is not generally well-liked among the fandom. But in that world, I really think she represents how a normal person would act and would have acted historically in the period GRRM takes inspiration from, given her situation and circumstances.
I think one of Salsa's main themes is seeing the way that the men playing the game of thrones are essentially just little boys throwing tantrums because they crave adulation. I think her power relates to that--in being able to transform into the mother they crave. Her talent is taming the monster.
Damn autocorrect 😂
@@PistachioDean no autocorrect. Salsa Stork is best stork.
@@WillowGardener Ok, that's her name from now on. Salsa Stork is officially my favourite character in all of ASOIAF.
Yes. She mothers others around her without realizing.
Sansa has always been my Favorite, I cannot for the life of me understand all the hate she gets when the poor kid is barely thirteen and mostly trying to stay alive
Sansa is hated in part because she is mainly sjow🎉n in contrast with Arya, who while younger, sees more of the truth than Sansa does. At the same time Sansa is often cruel to Arya and sides against her.
Second...all the horror starts in part, because of her...
I don't hate her, she is a victim of her time, but i admit i enjoy my time in Aryas head way more than i do enjoy sansa chapters...
@@saraa.4295 I'm aware of the reasons people give, thank you. They're actually all in the video, too.
@@brontesaurusrex7235 they are...
I actually think that is a very fascinating point in martins writing: you see characters from the viewpoint of other characters and see and feel their actions from the POV you are reading.
So depending on which POV's resonate most with one reader will influence how they feel about others heavily..
@@saraa.4295 When I was younger, I related to Arya but as I grew older, I realized I saw Sansa’s POV more. Arya is fun and spunky and easy to love and agree with, but the older I get, the more I understand Sansa’s perspective and the struggles of duty and expectations of family and society and what you’re supposed to be.
@@CaptainPikeachu that's how we recognize great books...we see them with other eyes as we grow.
Though to be fair, her chapter remains stressful to me, because i always feel, it would take so little to steeer her to a better path..just a simple honest talking to..
30:44 I do think there's a cultural gap - knights are Andal and the First Men are made of harder stuff - but also the North has a harder life bogged down by the logistics of the cold and feeding people and extreme states of living that have not come to the South in the same way - as if the North doesn't have the capacity for frivolity.
Agree. There are no other Northern ladies in Winterfell for Sansa to emulate. No aunts, cousins, or a grandmother. Catlynne is Southern and tries to import her Southerness and impose it on her Northren daughter(s) by having a Septa educate thrm and encouraging traditional 'sourthren' notions of ladyhood, chivalry, and courtesy.
Catlynne herself doesn't seem to have any friends among the Northern ladies and is very isolated. She should have sent for daughters of Northern lords to be Sansa's (and Arya's) companions at Winterfell years ago. Instead, she's left with just Jane Pool, who's not her social equal.
I think Sansa's issue with Sir illyn is the fact that he was the person who took the head of her father and so she sees him as the literal boogie man now
And she knew how good her father was, how pure and true and just he was! And he got beheaded
I think it’s important not to forget that Ned was pretty openly married to “duty” as a concept. Didn’t he drill that into his children? For Sansa that would look different because her role is different, but the value is the same. In an undeveloped mind that could mean, just, do as you’re told. She had to unlearn all of that, and pick up cunning, very quickly and very harshly. I think Ned’s influence shouldn’t be downplayed
I think that's also Catlynne's influence. The Tully words are: "Duty Family. Honor."
Catlynne married Ned after Brandon's death out of duty. Although she came to love Ned over the course of their marriage, it's implied she was _in_ love with his older brother, who she knew much better than the younger "quiet wolf."
I adore Sansa and her growth so far. She was raised to be sent off for the benefit of her family, and she truly believed that she was doing the best thing in the moment. As she learns she's wrong she pivots and holds firmly to her innermost truth her deepest hope for how the world should work.
Also he kissed her though gently with his blade, it was a kiss with a blade but she can focus more safely remember only that it was a kiss, and possibly not actually "physically" painful. Mental scars clearly apparent none the less........ and he said he was there to rescue her so while Dontos was groping she almost wishes she could have at least kissed the Hound's good cheek....... (she's a child)
I always thought of Sandor as her replacement for Lady. So much of what King Robert said in GoT turns out to be prophecy, and he told Ned, “a dire wolf is no pet, get her a dog she’ll be better off.” The Stark children and their wolves walk similar paths narratively in the books and the same can be said for Sansa and her Hound.
Sandor “dies” but isn’t really, he is disguised under a new name and identity. Just like Alayne Stone.
In that sense yes I do believe The Hound cares for and even loves Sansa in the same way your dog loves you.
She is one of my favorite literary characters of all time. #teamsansa
#teamsansa !!!!!
amen to that !
#teamsansa ❤️
Thank you!!! I needed this. Sansa is my favourite and I'm struggling with my weird life right now. I love all your videos, never stop.
Take care bud 💜
It really baffles me that some people would expect Sansa to "stand up" to her captors in any way, if that's actually an argument people make. If she did, THAT would make her stupid. She is 11 years old, and she has ridiculously little power in her situation, and every interaction is life vs death or violence for her. The world of AsoIaF is more like our real world, where showing disrespect this situation has consequences. It's not a Marvel film, and she isn't trained as some sort of spy or warrior. Unlike such characters, she doesn't live in a world that works like the songs (or most fantasy fiction) do.
I think people might expect this of her because they compare her to Arya, who does mouth off until she learns otherwise further on in the story. Imagine what the Lannisters would've done to Arya if she wasn't smuggled out of Kings Landing, and kept acting like she always has? Imagine how far they'd go to break her. I can imagine she'd probably not be allowed to see sunlight for a long time, not until they'd marry her off to the Boltons. She likely wouldn't have the opportunity Sansa did to escape, 'cus she'd likely be locked up and abused like a dog... if Joffrey didn't have her killed first, like Ned.
Great video. I love Sansa's character. Its common for us first born females to mother our younger sisters. I saw my younger sister as my own child. We were born four years apart and I had a lot of responsibility put on me by my mother to help her raise her. As teens, it was me who my baby sister called to get her out of trouble, not our mother. So it's hard to treat your younger siblings as equals when you played the motherly role for so long towards them and saved their butts countless times from doing stup*d things.
Yeah... my sister is just 2 years younger than me but since we were in kindergarten i always took care of her. I remember spoon feeding her at lunch when she was like 3 and i was 5. I aleays say i don't want children because i've raised one already, especially after our mom died when we were 14 and 16 and my dad was a dick...
It's not even for a younger sister, I have a younger brother, and I turned into his second mother, I was the one who taught him what menstruation was for example, when my mother was trying to pretend it didn't exist
I love that kid, but jeez, the amount of stress I went through
Sansa is my favourite character in the books. I just think George did such a good job writing her. I relate to her the most. So many people admire Arya and i get it. As far as books/tv goes shes a badass but do we really want a world that creates a child killer? (I know children go to war irl) but most of us are not her. This video was so well done. Sansa get so much hate for going to Cercie but for me Ned and Cat failed her.... but only because they thought there was more time. Sansa is a normal child with normal romantic notions and she learns an extremely harsh lesson. I hope she has a happy ending 😊
I hate when people act like Arya having killed people is somehow cool. It’s very obviously traumatized her.
People even say her murder of Daeron is somehow indicative that she’ll be the queen in the north, because she kills people just like her daddy. But daeron’s murder is more like a repeat of Ned killing Gared. It’s a horrific injustice made worse by being committed by someone who isn’t a villain, or even slightly bad, but broken.
Just paused the video in the Jon section to comment on why Sansa may not have thought about Jon in ages... I don't recall the exact point in the book, but just listening to your video and knowing all that had happened to Sansa between the last time she saw Jon and now, and given the fact that they were in different social circles even then... it makes sense. Jon was a lifetime ago. A different lifetime. A different Sansa, even.
Could it be possible that the reason Ned was more honest with Arya about the dangers was that
1) Arya is more inclined to speak her mind at the wrong time - which would put her in danger,
2) given that Arya is more Tom boyish, and most of Ned's children are boys, it was slightly easier for Ned relate/explain things to her than Sansa?
As a loud and shameless Sansa stan, I deeply appreciate this video. Thank you for delving into her psychology like this and doing it the justice it deserves.
Who doesn't love Sansa Stark? Lol, she's the main character of Game of Thrones to me because she embodies what the (medieval fantasy) world should look like versus the trauma of facing how it actually is and trying your best to cope with it. I wish they had shown more of that in the show they really did her dirty. I think we all have a hidden affection for Sansa because she is basically the embodiment of feminine innocence and what the other end of that would look like, and just how real that is... :(
Sansa really is the main character to me because she really embodies how the world had ought to be versus how it is. And in a series that focuses so much on honor and honorable virtue and values nobody I think can really narrate how that should be like Sansa can. If anybody was to ask how a knight should be and how a knight should act, Sansa would be able to give you the best answer, because she thinks about it so much. And shes not a perfect character but shes not supposed to be, none of the characters are perfect you know
I love this whole video. Sansa is one of my favourite characters and I just think she’s so interesting. I agree with your Jon Snow section, also. There is definitely something very fascinating going on there.
YOOOO a new ASOIAF character analysis? Nice! And it’s… 1 hour, 52 minutes, and 12 seconds long. Dang. I got my work cut out for me today… 👀
Wow dude, this piece really blew me away; I can tell so much love and care was put into this video and just how well you broke everything down, my personal fav part was the last 3 chapters, the Piece, the Player and Spring. That theory of her being the perfect character to make there be something worth fighting for when the walkers come was something ive never thought about before and truly made me think hard about where the story could lead and sansas story as a whole. its so profound and thought provoking (best way i can describe what this video has made me feel)
She was already one of my favourite characters, though not quite beating sandor i think shes easily my 2nd favourite character in the entire series now, damn you tywin wont be happy losing his spot!
Seriously, I loved this piece and definitely will be coming back to it every so often just for the experience! Cheers!
Oh wow, thanks so much! That's so kind, both the donation and the words! I really appreciate it
Watching this makes me feel so many ways, because I see myself in Sansa so deeply that discussing her psychology is almost like someone is looking me through a glass. I love her so much.
That's often been the unexpected result when I make videos like these. I talk about a fictional character but people relate to that person and sometimes feel like I'm discussing them. I'm never entirely sure if that's a good thing because it could feel exposing for some, and I don't want to accidentally make people see every single aspect of Sansa as a reflection of themselves, when it might only be certain aspects. Generally though, I think it's been a positive experience. It's probably the main reason I've kept making these. I want people a) to feel they can be understood and b) to encourage people to show empathy or try to understand others. Anyway, I love Sansa too, she's possibly my favourite character
I'm only on the third(?) book, and Sansa's chapters are those I enjoy the most if I'm honest. They're very easy to get into emotionally, as it's very straight-forward what the stakes are and they're always there at the forefront. There's hardly any lull in the suspense, because every situation every day for Sansa is life and death, even the most "mundane" interactions. She is always in danger, and you're made so aware of it by the text.
Thank you for the video! You’re the first person I think to compare Sweet Robin with Joff, which is very interesting! And I really think that Sansa being somewhat of a maternal figure to him is really important. I also think that being that maternal figure is also matters if (or when) she’s reunited with Jon, because he didn’t get his closure with Catelyn, and to have a Stark woman that’s so like her to accept him as an equal would be really satisfying
This felt like you opened up my mind and explained everything about me. I really appreciate you speaking of her gently and making her sound special. It honestly made me feel really nice. I didn’t realize Sansa and I were as alike as we are. I had always liked her story.
Glad you enjoyed it 😊 I always hoped these videos offer empathy to people
i requested this about a year or so ago words cannot describe how happy i am to see this video is up now!!!! sansa is my favorite character and you did her so much justice and viewed her with so much empathy!!! thank you so much!!!
Sansa is probably my favorite character so glad you made a video! I hope you will also make videos about the House of the Dragon characters.
I don't understand why I used to hate Sansa, but after rewatching the show and reading the books, I completely changed my mind about her. She was a child in a place where people were using and abusing her. A place where her " traitor" of dad has been executed in front of her. However, she managed to survive all that and more even after she got out of king's landing. Her story is not finished in the book series, but I like where she ended up in the show. She always wanted to be a queen, and her dream became reality after much adversities, but in the process,she grew so much stronger. She is not a little bird anymore, believing in fairytale. But she for sure had a lot of emotional,psychological and physical trauma.
It's how she looked down on her "half-brother". She was quite cruel towards him.
i agree. Sansa is obviously intelligent, politically apt when given the chance and has solid diplomacy and court skills. she knows what tyranny and exploitation look like first hand, and yet, she genuinely believes in kindness and justice.
i absolutely refuse to believe that the line about her wanting to be a queen who is loved is anything but foreshadowing that she‘ll eventually rule the North.
I think it is because Sansa doesn't want to think about her family because it makes her so sad. I remember her praying for Jon's safety and thinking of Jon when she saw Yoren. But the only bastard she would have spent a significant time around would be Jon and Alayne's personality is based on a bastard she knows. She said "Alyane was born on the other side of the pillow and is bastard brave"
I really love this video!! Sansa is so misunderstood, I used to hate her when I was younger, but looking back I feel a lot of empathy towards her.
Hers story is one of loss of innocence, letting go of romantic idealizations in favor of facing reality, coping with your own limitations - imposed by society and by your own mind - and finding courage and strength to push on in spite of it.
As someone that tends to live in my own head, idealize things too much and shut down when my expectations (of myself, of others, of life in general) dont measure up to reality, I've grown to really love her and feel for her.
I believe that we, as readers/watchers, probably like to imagine that, in the world of Westeros, we would be more like Arya or Dany or Jon, taking charge of our own destinies, but Sansa really shows us how terrifying it would be to navigate westerosi society. She makes us face our own shortcomings, powerlessness in face of danger, jealousy, naiveté - and it can be hard to have empathy with someone that reminds us of not so flattering parts of ourselves.
Sorry for the ramble, your video really got me thinking, thank you so much for your dedication!!
(Edits for grammar mistakes, english isn't my first language)
I never really admitted it when the show was happening but Sansa actually was one of my favourite characters after Daenerys and Arya. I could relate a lot to her, back when I was being bullied in primary school I would basically disappear into daydreams about Lord Of The Rings as a way to escape from the misery of real life. And then again in middle school when I was going through verbal abuse and homophobic bullying I would literally fantasize about disappearing into the To Kill A Mockingbird book and living in the small little southern town with Scout and Jem.
Also despite the fact that I'm a feminist i do also really enjoy girly feminine things, which can get me scoffed at from other feminists sometimes.
Also there is the rather obvious physical similarities that me and Sansa have, dark auburn red hair, slender figures.
My takeaway from Sansa telling Cersei that they were leaving was that Ned could have told her why, but he decided not to because he knew how poorly prepared she was for the adult politics he's worked so hard to avoid specifically because of how brutally artificial it all is.
aaahhh i have been waiting for someone to make an extensive video analyzing her i also think she is one of the most fascinating characters in the series.. and by extension how fascinated i am that george is able to write such complex female characters in his books
Jon and Sansa actually do think of each other but it's in subtext: when Sansa shapes her Alayne Stone personality some traits come to her suddenly and they happen to be Jon's actual traits! E.g. Jon's age, being 'bastard brave', and not being much of a dancer. Meanwhile, Jon seems to note traits associated with Sansa in his relationship with Ygritte: auburn/red hair, singing that he very much enjoys (vs 'he thought of Sansa brushing Lady's coat and singing to herself'), wanting to see Ygritte in a 'pretty dress', when he thinks of all Stark siblings before he dies Sansa's mention is followed by 'you know nothing Jon Snow'. Very interesting to see where George takes this as it's likely intentional that we never see them interact on page unlike other Stark kids 👀
I definitely believe GRRM has intentionally done this. There are heaps more parallels and connections to be made between them, but it's passed over because Jon and Sansa's relationship is 'disguised' under shallow differences (Jon = traditionally masculine, Sansa = traditionally feminine, Jon = associated more so with the North, Sansa = associated more so with the South, even in their respective physical features, but also from a cultural standpoint). The fact that GRRM hasn't had them interact on page, and they don't consciously think of each other much, means that majority of readers will pass over their relationship and consider it insignificant to the narrative but come on... this is GRRM we're talking about here! Everything is done with intention.
Sometimes it isn't just about what the authors includes and writes explicitly in the text, but what he omits/writes more implicitly. And I believe that is where Jon And Sansa exist - between the lines, subconsciously, and you have to unveil those surface level differences to get to their cores - and realise they are actually quite similar.
For one, both begin the narrative relatively hot-headed, dramatic, and naively idealistic. Jon wishes to take the black and doesn't care what anyone thinks. He believes the NW is full of noble men like Benjen, but he soon learns the cold hard truth. He acts a little stuck-up and arrogant by thinking he's better than everyone, though this disillusioning journey occurs for him and he gets a harsh dose of reality.
And the same thing happens For Sansa. Sansa wishes to go South and live this idealistic fantasy, she doesn't want anyone to ruin it and gets similarly defensive about the chivalry of the South and yeah acts like a brat (but she's 11 so I give her leeway on that!). And what happens? She becomes disillusioned and gets that harsh dose of reality, 'there are no heroes.'
But importantly, Jon and Sansa continue believe in honour and inherent goodness despite the harshness and trauma they endure. 'Hope prevails despite the darkness,' it's partly the reason they find themselves in the situations they in... (Why Sansa is swept away by LF and Jon is betrayed by his men). There's of course more nuance there, but when you look at it that way... it's certainly intriguing.
Opposite social standing parallels certainly occur! Sansa goes from Lady to captive to traitor to bastard. Jon goes from Bastard to captive to traitor to lord. Additionally, both are the only Starks who refer to themselves as the 'blood of winterfell.' Three times for Jon, once for Sansa.Why wouldn't GRRM give this line to Arya and Bran as well? Odd (or intentional).
Chapter transitioning can also be noted. GRRM orders the chapters in the way he believes best tell the stories, and there are various Jon/Sansa back-to-back chapters with...interesting themes. The main one that comes to mind is ASOS Jon XII > ASOS Sansa VII: In Jon's chapter, he contemplates lordship, having children, and restoring a burnt and broken WF to his former glory. He reunites with Ghost and reflects on a childhood memory with Robb. Ultimately Jon makes his decision to reject Stannis' offer, though we don't see *why* until ADWD in which it's stated "Winterfell belongs to my sister Sansa."
Sansa's chapter involves her waking from a dream about her family, she then also has a memory of Robb, and there's that beautiful snow castle scene. She builds WF in the snow. "The castle was all that mattered." She laments on the snow reminding her of WF "the taste of innocence" and the "taste of dreams." It's a hopeful moment, I just adore it.
So to summarise - Jon yearns to rebuild WF, Sansa then builds WF in the snow and draws strength from it, Sansa further thinks of a godswood and how empty she feels without it, Jon additionally thinks of a godswood and laments that Ghost "belongs to the old gods," both have a fond memory of Robb from their childhoods.
Now, there are a lot more chapter transitions I could draw from, but this one certainly jumped out to me when I first read ASOS!
It's also significant that out of every other character in the series, Jon is the only person who respects and protects Sansa's claim with utterly genuine non-self serving intentions. Robb doesn't want Sansa to inherit because she's 'Lady Lannister' but Jon isn't fooled by that - he consistently states that WF belongs to Sansa, and I think that's so profound for Sansa who believes she is only ever wanted/used for her claim.
Here's another awesome parallel that is just, so narratively conclusive and satisfying:
"Frog-faced Lord Slynt sat at the end of the council table wearing a black velvet doublet and a shiny cloth-of-gold cape, nodding with approval every time the king pronounced a sentence. Sansa stared hard at his ugly face, remembering how he had thrown down her father for Ser Ilyn to behead, wishing she could hurt him, wishing that some hero would throw him down and cut off his head. But a voice inside her whispered, There are no heroes." (AGOT Sansa, VI).
'I will not hang him," said Jon. "Bring him here."
'Oh, Seven save us," he heard Bowen Marsh cry out.
The smile that Lord Janos Slynt smiled then had all the sweetness of rancid butter. Until Jon said, "Edd, fetch me a block," and unsheathed Longclaw." (ADWD Jon, II).
I mean....woah.
@@Cherryfxmls yeah, chapter transitions are wild: in ASOS a chapter where Jon is told about Blue Rose/Princess of Winterfell and King beyond the Wall is followed by the chapter of Sansa's 'flowering'. Then when Lysa asks Sansa 'how would you like to marry your cousin?' the next page and chapter is Jon 🤔 Jon dreams of son Robb (note Robb has Sansa's looks), while Sansa dreams of children Bran, Rickon and Arya (note Arya has Jon's look) - it's like two halves of the same list? 🤔 Jon's (Targaryen/Stark) dads choosing a Stark (Lyanna) and a Tully (Catelyn) - Sansa is both (Stark/Tully) 🤔While looking all of this up, I've also come across pics of GRRM and his wife in their youth and well... it's weird LOL
@@sarar1138 you’re corrected. Sansa’s flowering is book-ended by Jon’s chapters where he hears the blue rose story and a flowered Stark maiden being stolen (just as Sansa becomes a flowering Stark maiden). Then Sansa has that conversation with Cersei about love, and the chapter goes once more into Jon.
I’ve also noticed, Jon is never quite far from Sansa’a suitors. When she’s first betrothed to Joffrey in Eddard I, Jon’s chapter follows, her betrothal to Willas in Sansa I is followed by Jon again, then Jon’s chapter precedes Sansa being fit for her wedding dress, then that “how would you like to marry your cousin” “no one will ever marry me for love” followed by a Jon chapter once again. And then In her final AFFC chapter , she consciously mentions Jon and thinks of how sweet it’d be to see him and a few lines later Harry the Heir is mentioned. By the end of the chapter Sansa is betrothed to Harry. That’s 5 times Jon is narratively close to her suitors.
Then of course there is the Ashford tourney ; someone did a great analysis on Jon’s similarities with Valarr Targaryen - for one, they are both described as “black knights with white guardians” . There are five suitors at this tourney - Baratheon, Lannister, Tyrell, Hardyng… and Targaryen (as the final jouster). Notice how most of them match up with Sansa’a suitors in asoiaf?? Some people think it’s fAegon that Sansa will marry, but I disagree when we have *all this* + more that has been discussed regarding Jon.
Jonnel ‘One Eye’ Stark married his half niece Sansa Stark (who is the only other Sansa Stark to exist in canon). Jonnel’s half brother was called Rickon (Sansa’s father) who died pledging his allegiance to a southern king. Jonnel’s mother was also named *Lyarra.* Jonnel and Sansa married to solve the northern succession crisis, though they didn’t have any children from this union, so why would George add it in? In fact, the family tree was already made, he just went back and added *that* specific detail that yes - would be easily be passed over by fans.
The ‘One Eye’ addition sells me on this. Because Jon almost loses his eye. Jon almost his eye clawed out by Orell’s eagle, and has a permanent scar. That chapter is followed by a Sansa chapter where she and Margaery talk of flying eagles in Highgarden with Sansa’s future husband at the time - Willas. ADWD prologue involves a warg skin changing into an animal called ‘One Eye’ which is foreshadowing for Jon’s death and how he will warg into Ghost.
But the comparisons don’t stop there. Ser Waymar Royce, from the AGOT prologue - was a Night’s Watch ranger described as slender, graceful, grey eyed , and dark haired. If you look at official art of him, he is a spitting image of Jon. Jon is first introduced in the very next Bran I chapter as slender, graceful, grey eyed, and dark. Jon joins the Night’s Watch and acts a bit haughty and arrogant, just as Waymar does. Waymar has that infamous “dance with me then” line, and Jon has that “dance with me anon” line in relation to the Others. When Waymar dies, he comes back as a wight with *one working eye.*
After all that, he isn’t really mentioned again . Until Sansa’s chapter in AFFC. She fell “wildly in love with Ser Waymar.” This was a detail that GRRM did not need to add in, since we know that Sansa fawns over men, though it’s been *southern* men. Here she’s shown she is attracted to a “black knight” with northern features who justttt so happens to resemble Jon among other things .. and the “wildly” part reminds me of “wildling” . GRRM could have said “madly” but he said “wildly” - why!?
Take a look at George’s previous works - almost all the female love interests are red/auburn haired. Sansa is an obvious romantic figure who resembles a pre-raphaelite painting - George has stated that is his favourite art.
George has described Jon as a “brooding Byronic romantic hero” and lets just say, he fits that archetype very well. George has also taken obvious influence from Byron, there’s literary references sprinkled in throughout the series - in fact, there is a “Byron the Beauiful” in Sansa’s Winds chapter. You know what’s interesting about Byron? Many of his works involved the incest motif. In fact, he was rumoured to be in love with his half sister. His famous poem “the bride of abydos” involved two half siblings falling in love with each other until they realise they’re *actually* cousins.
I really love talking about Jon and Sansa , I understand they’re villified a lot by the general fandom , but whatever George is doing with them is intriguing as fuck. It’s really really rich with literary , artistic, and subconscious subtext. Veryyy grrm style.
@Cherryfxmls @sarar1138 You guys' analysis is blowing my mind 🤯 Really amazing you two! 👏🏾👏🏾👏🏾
@@ukaniko ahhh TYSM !!! There’s actually so much more I could reference , but it’s impossible to fit into a few accounts 🤣
Thinking about what Sansa’s recurring nightmares about Ilyn Payne could mean for her future, I’m wondering if it’s Sansa grappling with what it really means for a ruler to have the power of life and death over their subjects. Because Ilyn Payne isn’t merely a killer. He’s the King’s Justice. He kills in the name of the king. In the very first chapter, we see Ned execute a man, meting out what he sees as justice. And Ned tells his children that he who passes the sentence should swing the sword. He says that having a professional executioner like Payne do it for you numbs you to the magnitude of the act of execution. If Sansa’s future is as a ruler-Lady of Winterfell or Queen in the North-she will be in a position to pass such sentences. However, Sansa will never be someone who swings a sword. If she orders an execution, someone else will carry it out for her. She will be in danger of becoming numb to what that sentence truly means, as Ned warned. Her relationship with Ilyn Payne could be about her having it seared into her consciousness ahead of time how weighty a thing it is to command an execution. I’m thinking this might first be tested by how she deals with Petyr. In the show we saw her sentence him to death and then look him in the eye as Arya executed him. It would be really interesting if we saw his execution from her point of view and witnessed what went on in her head as she watched that sentence being carried out…
FINALLY SANSA IS APPRECIATED FOR THE GREAT CHARACTER THAT SHE IS, I USED TO PRAY FOR TIMES LIKE THESE
I think George kept the separation between Sansa and Jon because they’re going to get married. There is a lot foreshadowing in the books that link Sansa and Jon together, especially with how they see the world and chivalry. John thinks about Sansa in the same times he thinks about magic. Sansa loves songs, and Jon IS the Song of Ice & Fire.
The fact that they don't have a 'strong sibling bond' like Jon and Arya does, would definitely help in them developing romantic feelings, especially when it's revealed they are not actual half-siblings but cousins. And marriage between cousins isn't improbable.
This is one of the best analysis of Sansa i've ever seen 🙏🙏
Thanks!
Oh, yay! I’m so happy you made a Sansa video. She’s my favorite character in the book, and I found her very relatable. She reminds me so much of myself and my childhood friends at her age, especially as someone who comes from a rather misogynistic and hierarchical country/culture. I feel like that sort of environment for upper-class girls creates a lot of Sansa’s.
I can tell in this video your phycology background.
As a man to understand and have such great sympathy for such a young girl who is also going through one of the hardest changes of a young girls life.
You have an amazing understanding of human phycology. Your future children will be very lucky kids.
Thank you for understanding the feelings a girl her age go through normally. Let alone what Sansa is going through with all the extra in her life.
This is about to be amazing.
Honestly Ned and catelyn sheltered the children so much that they were not in any way prepared for the real world. They believe everyone is good they take everyone at their word.. look at Ned himself he was not ready for kings landing at all. Even Jon is not ready when they named him lord commander. Robb is not ready as king
I started reading/watching game of thrones when I was 14. I always identified most with Sansa-empathizing with her back then due to age and sharing her initial naive outlook very much so. I’m approaching 30 now as an adult who has survived a minefield of SA and domestic violence, and revisiting Sansa is cathartic and comforting for me now in an even greater way. Perhaps there’s something to be said about the link that I might have formed between this character and my own sort of inner child. Regardless, I am so glad to have found a video that truly cares about Sansa as a character and does not dismiss her due to her age or circumstances in the books.
Sansa was the favorite of the two girls. She was also the most Tulley. She also favors the sons who have more of the Tully look than the ones who look like Ned. Being treated as "better than" just because she favored her mother's family probably influenced her relationships with both Jon and Arya.
Thank you for attributing artists! 🧑🎨
I think your are wrong about the hound .Hound thinks of sansa as his younger self who still believed in knights ,songs,etc before his face was burned
I definitely agree that is one aspect of it. One part of him very much wants to protect her, however he's also a very complex and fascinating conflict of different parts, so I think there's a lot of stuff going on
love this video! this is the nuanced take i needed on her character, and i appreciate it so much. absolutely love the insight into how circumstances affected sansa's behaviour and development. it's something that's difficult to get across in writing, especially when lots of readers kind of... refuse to read what's in front of their eyes (or expect sansa to have the exact same reactions, thoughts, and emotions as characters who lived in completely different circumstances and are, yk, separate people) (or, as i've noticed with the tv show fans specifically, they get mad at sansa for not doing the thing that the viewer would do, even though her choices make sense with her character)
lovely video, thank you for sharing!
thank you so much for this! its amazing! I love Sansa so much!
TH-cam doesnt have enough of her and, most part, is because the fandom dont care to understand her. So, thank you so much for it ❤
Love your take on Arya and Sansa relaticion. So much of the fandom hates Sansa for it and Im glas that you address it with so much care.
Do you have one video for Jon Snow? I would love to see your takes on him, because the fandom sems to dismiss so much of his personality and his parallels with Sansa in so much of the story.
Talking of him, Sansa doesnt think of him explicitly, but she mold her bastard persona in him, I (and part of the fandom) are pretty sure of it. So he is much more present in her mind that we think. Sandor and Ilyn Payne parallels Jon too and maybe this will play out in future books (please George I beg you 😭)
Again, thank you so much ❤
Glad you enjoyed it! No Jon yet, but it's early days. I want to make videos on most of the characters. So far I've done Tywin, Tyrion, Jaime (which were all made right after I finished the books for the first time) then Cersei, then Eddard, Catelyn,.Ramsay, and now Sansa. Not sure who will be next or when but I'd imagine either Arya, Jon, possibly Theon
I know this is a character study of a fictional character, but I’ve never related to Sansa and now I realize I’m the Sansa in my sibling group of two. I’ve gained so much insight from this study about my own experiences. Thank you so much. You’ve done a great service.
To be honest, that perfectly sums up why I love doing these videos. It was always about empathy for me. Sometimes for people we know who are like Sansa, sometimes for ourselves without realising is, and sometimes just the experience of getting to feel for someone we don't fully understand. I think it's a really important experience and I certainly gain from making the videos myself, so it's always nice to know when others feel the same. Glad it helped 😊
People tend to react badly to characters who reflect their less heroic tendencies, whether these are calculated or reflexive. It's probably a function of a reasonably healthy ego to believe ourselves the hero of our own story. Nobody wants to be the character who pees themselves in terror when something terrifying happens, or subsides into silence in the face of injustice, or protects themselves from social punishment and ostracism by ignoring bullying, or actively avoids reminders of trauma rather than confronting them.
But, in reality, all of us have the potential to be that. Humans do not consistently respond to suffering with defiance or even forbearance. We whinge, we bitch, we tell half-truths, we observe and sometimes engage in bad behaviour and cruelty without interceding, we are paralysed by danger, and it isn't always clear what is the best way forward (or even the least damaging way through), and we're frightened by that and ashamed of it.
It's frightening and frustrating to be confronted with a character whose only real power is over whether she gives in to despair and/or cruelty or not, and to witness her bending beneath the pressures around her - because that's far, far more realistic than being a self-actualising hero. I think that if someone can recognise that realism and understand it and forgive it, that's actually really useful, because they might be able to apply that compassion to themselves. We all fail sometimes and we all feel helpless sometimes, and what we should learn from it is compassion.
Beautifully said. When I hear people hate those realistic, vulnerable, flawed but still good characters, I think they need to take a long look in the mirror.
I think this was your best ASOIAF analysis yet. Great listen.
Ahh thanks! It still makes sense, even when you haven't read the books, then? I tried a little more to explain the plot points as I went along
@@mylittlethoughttree Yes! I mean, I might not understand all the bits when it comes to plot, I don't know all the other characters you mention, but you do a great job of painting Sansa so vividly that I feel like I know her even without having read the books. She just comes alive. I don't actually completely need to know the whole context of everything to be able to appreciate an analysis of a "person", if that makes sense. (That being said, I do really appreciate you explaining the plot points at least roughly! It makes it all a lot easier to follow and understand, so thank you. 😁)
More than anything, I just really appreciate that it's got a ton of added value even outside of the story itself. You talk about trauma responses and other things that sort of make it educational, it's like you use a fictional character to beautifully illustrate real-world concepts and phenomena, to talk about human psychology in a way that's attractive and digestible even for people who wouldn't care for it otherwise. And you do it with such empathy, gentleness, and genuine curiosity that I feel like it promotes that approach in others, too. That, I feel, is perhaps the most important aspect. No judgement, just a desire to understand, an emphasis on nuance instead of sweeping simplifications, and just so much care and kindness. I hope you never lose that, and I genuinly think the kids you work with are very lucky.
My cousin said the video nearly made her cry, she really saw herself in some of the things you talked about. It resonated deeply. So just a small reminder that your content really does touch hearts. Thank you
@@efoxkitsune9493 Well, you certainly made me smile! This might be the nicest comment I've had a in while, thank you!
@@mylittlethoughttree Aw, I'm glad 😊 Hope you have a nice day.
The constant threat of SA that Sansa lives under (Joffrey, Ser Dontos, Sandor, Tyrion, Littlefinger) is one of the most real and quietly horrifying part of ASOIAF. I lived through something similar when I was around her age, forced to share a space with a child molester, unable to express or fully understand and conceptualize the danger I was in.
Close to 2 hours. Amazing
Thank you for touching on Sansa and Robert Arryn. I always overlooked him as a character. I’d love to see them grow together and rise above the odds, and remind us as readers that there is goodness in humanity that needs to be protected. I think that makes the events of the white walkers more impactful. It will be interesting to see her be the older sister to Robert and have that sort of relationship with him that she couldn’t necessarily have with Arya. I think, too, this made me reflect on what I thought about Robert, not jumping on the bandwagon that he should be killed off just because he’s so sickly, when I’ve always rooted for characters like Arya or Sansa to rise above the odds
This has made a day of errands genuinely enriching, thank you. Sansa reminds me so much of myself at her age in the books and you nailed describing that mindset. Like, i’m gonna have notes from this for my own therapist lol
You didn’t mention the most notable thing about Ser Ilyn…. He has no tongue! No songs from him. :) Great vid!
I haven't watched GoT nor read ASOIAF, but I've been obsessed with this character for the longest time, Ive seen many clips and video edits of her, as well as read many essays on her. (Note that I don't watch or read the original material mostly because I'm sensitive to gore and tragic and try to avoid it when I can, for my own mental health. I'm a sponge of emotions)
Anyways, my fascination for Sansa began when I heard that many people disliked her, found her annoying, whiny, that she was useless, and blablabla. But it only peaked my curiosity. I have a weakness for female characters who are traditionally feminine, with feminine strength, and who remind kind no matter the hardship. Too often, we see fictional women like Arya Stark, who kinda mimics masculine energy, tomboy attitude and people seem to gravitate around that sort of badass female character, and the feminine ones always appear (in the mind of people) weak or useless, or are only there for eye candy or be the damsel in distress, or just ''badass'' when they use their body to get what they want.
Literally, same. I have been obsessed with Sansa ever since I randomly read a fan fiction that centered her and so I decided to look her up and she has become my Roman Empire. I knew about GOT before and was intrigued by edits of Dany and Arya who looked cool, but diving into Sansa is much more fascinating and fun from a narrative perspective. I also, love the clear depth to her character if you observe her critically. I think I’m only willing to read the books if they get completed and she has a happy ending, but it will probably take me as long to finish reading them as it will take GRRM to finish writing them.
@@emta8149 I think I would probably pick up the books if GRRM actually finishes them. I don't want to put myself through all this emotional turmoil if there won't be a conclusion and mostly happy ending lol I'm such an oversensitive person.
I know not everyone ships Jonsa, but if you're interested in reading an analysis about them, how they parallel each other, I would suggest you read the Jonsa Compendium. You can easily find it on Google, it'll most likely be the first link. It's super detailed and interesting to read.
one thing i have to disagree on is her being more like her mom in terms of personality. i think she’s more like ned
I agree, at least at the core of her. If her betrothed for whatever reason brought a bastard home, she wouldn't find it in her to disdain them. She'd probably latch on to any kind of happiness it could give her and she'd protect it's innocence. That's Ned through and through.
Personality wise maybe, looks, gods, being a lady, she feels more like Cat and has a stronger connection to her. Some of that is more superficial but as a child I think she feels like she's closer to Catelyn
Indeed, she takes after Ned the same way Arya takes after Catelyn:
Sansa shares her father's ideals of honor and justice, while Arya has her mother's mental and emotional fortitude, as well as her thirst for vengeance!!!!
It was genius of George tell this story through the eyes of children. It makes it even more tragic and inspiring reading these kids adapt, survived, and overcome adversity.
This is a really fantastic video. I always thought Sansa was unfairly hated but I also never particularly cared about her as much as most other characters. This video gives me a completely new perspective on her, though, I may have to reread her chapters with it in mind.