Talking about Zorba
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 31 ธ.ค. 2019
- My first booktube video, reviewing Zorba the Greek by Nikos Kazantzakis. I would love to hear your thoughts on how we react to sexist attitudes in older books.
And as promised here is a version of Zorba's dance:
• ΗΛΙΔΑ. 'ΖΟΡΜΠΑΣ ' [Z...
What a terrific review! Your enthusiasm is contagious, Ros. I’m set to go find Zorba in my library today. Welcome to BookTube.
Debby I just noticed that I did not reply to your welcoming comment at the time. Making up for that now 😊
Ros, this was so interesting! What a fantastic beginning!
Thank you. I will have to try to keep it up!
This was a fantastic discussion! I found your channel through Brian and I've listened to you on Tilly's channel, but I'm so glad you now have a channel of your own. You have such a welcoming way of speaking, I look forward to hearing your thoughts on many more books! Best regards, Matthew.
Thanks Matthew. I first came across you via Brian! I am feeling so tremendously welcomed by other booktubers.
Thank you for sharing your analysis. I really enjoyed hearing your perspectives, especially around the sexism aspect and the context around it, as well as your insights about the translation. Thanks so much.
I am so glad if you found it interesting. It was my first video so lots to learn but a good book to discuss.
Such a delight to hear Miss Havisham's name pop up in a book review! She is definitely an unforgettable character. Loved the style of this video review. Thanks for sharing it with us, and I hope you have tons of fun being a BookTube content creator!
Ooh happy to have hit another Miss Havisham appreciator. I am hoping to have fun and share that.
Welcome! Welcome! Looking forward to more such in depth and well thought out book discussions! I might pick up Zorba, based on your recommendation :))
I remember discussing Light in August with you back in the summer and I think you might find Zorba interesting. Thank you for the welcome.
Thank you so much, that was a delight. For some reason I decided to go on a Kazantzakis binge on TH-cam this evening, to see what was there. It made me really regret not having better French and Greek. There are some interviews that look excellent.
I read my father’s copy of Zorba in about 1981, when I was about 20. I reread it about 2 years ago in my mid 50s. Not long after my first reading, I spent the best part of a year living on a Greek island that had only recently begun to experience tourism but retained many very traditional ways. Arriving long before the tourist season started and leaving long after it had finished, I got to see many of the attitudes and traditions play out, some very charming, some out-and-out nasty.
I’m fully with you on Zorba and your points on translation are very well made. I believe it’s literally impossible to translate everything an author intended, just as it is impossible to make the perfect film of a book - I always insist on reading the book before seeing the film. As a result I’ve missed a lot of good films! It’s a philosophy that has shown me that Thomas Hardy was an incredible cinematographer, but I digress.
The sexism in Zorba is very, very evident. In my reading of it before my sojourn in the Cyclades, I saw it as medieval and placed it in a far-flung history. When you’re 20, a book written in the 1940s is in the impossibly distant past. reading it 30+ years after my time in Greece, it rang true as something that could have happened in the 1940s. And, in saying that, acknowledging that times had changed - but not that much.
I’ll illustrate that with the example of the extraordinary girl I befriended. I was in charge of renting pedal boats on the beach frequented by Athenian tourists - nudism wasn’t allowed so it was their preferred place. My mate was on the other beach teaching windsurfing to Swedes. This girl used to come and talk with me and we got on really well. She lived in Athens but she came to the island on her holidays because her uncle was the island’s baker - yes the island was that small, it had one baker. I was 20, she was probably 18. I lived in a shepherd’s cottage across the bay from the harbour and sometimes she’d come and visit me. I would always find some way of distancing myself from her because my patio was in full view of the village. I knew what being seen with me could do for her reputation. And I knew what her cousins could do to me. I visited her in Athens and met her parents. After dinner we went - with a suitable friend as chaperone - to have a cola in the nearby square. I’m not kidding, as we arrived, all the men in the square - probably about 300 - began chanting, whoopping, whistling and shrieking. When I asked what it was about, she and her friend were evasive but one thing was for sure, it was about us. A girl being seen arriving in the square with a guy who was obviously not from the area, was seen as something to make a noise about. I don’t know how she coped with it but she did.
An entirely platonic relationship with a wonderful person. Any possible progress was halted - on my part at least - by the possible consequences. Inevitably, I would be leaving but any damage I might do would stay after I had gone.
I love Greece so much I’m homesick for it but that aspect of it made my toes curl. And the homophobia. When you were enlarging on the issue of sexism in Zorba you suggested that, perhaps, Kazantzakis was just telling it like it is, being documentarian. I think that’s it. I think it’s part of the triangulation between the reader, Zorba and the narrator. The situation with the widow was abhorrent to the narrator and it was evident that Zorba didn’t condone it but he saw it as “how things were”.
Thank you again for your lovely piece. I realise it’s now 11 months old and you’ve probably done loads more for me to explore. Your evaluation of Zorba is an excellent benchmark. As I concur so fully with it, I have full trust in your comments on things I haven’t read! Be well, stay well, keep reading!
Denis what a lovely surprise to find and read this message this morning. As you say this was my very first video and I am happy in retrospect that I chose Zorba as I have realised that this book has a special place in the heart of a wonderful mix of readers.
Your experiences in the Cyclades and then Athens were fascinating to read. The cat calling scene was horrifying.
Your story has made me think back to my experiences visiting Greece. It is a country that I love and where I have always appreciated a sense of welcome and safety as a visitor. But back in 1982 when I was 18 and visiting islands in the Cyclades with my then boyfriend I had a very disconcerting experience. We had just arrived on this island and took a room. The owner, an older man, was keen to show us around his interesting old house including the attic and sent my boyfriend up the ladder stairs first, followed by me and bringing up the rear himself. Under the pretext of keeping me safe he kept touching my legs. I wasn't sure what to make of this. But later on he cornered me in the bathroom alone and tried to grab me and kiss me. I protested, my boyfriend appeared and the owner fled. He appeared shortly afterwards with melons and peaches to apologise to my boyfriend. Obviously we moved on in the morning. It was a strange incident and unacceptable, but at the same time I felt there was a degree of confusion for men like him about what to make of these young women tourists behaving so differently from their expectations.
@@scallydandlingaboutthebook2711 That sounds horrific but I wish I could say I was surprised. I encountered many instances of that sort of presumption. I think you are right about the 'degree of confusion'. At the time, Greek women would have worn more conservative clothes than Northern European tourists and were less likely to be out unaccompanied by men or older women. How that made the men feel they could behave that way, I just don't know. Funnily enough it was 1982 that I began my prolonged stint on Antiparos. I'd been to Greece several times before but in March '82 a friend and I gave up our jobs in Dublin and hopped aboard the Magic Bus on our Grecian Odyssey. Now, must go. There's rather a lot of video reviews to catch up on! :)
Hi Ros. I am so happy to see that you have a channel, welcome. I have read Zorba the Greek believe it or not, when I was younger, and I totally agreed with Zorba's philosophy of life than. When I read older books I attribute the attitudes and ways of thinking to that period of time, after all, we are going to their time, they are not coming to ours. I also agree with you about translations, if we don't speak the language we don't know whether to judge the author or translator. As I said at the beginning, I am so happy to see you now have a channel, I look forward to future videos. This is a great way to start the New Year.
I might have guessed you would have read it Lillian! Thank you for the welcome and encouragement.
I like the way you put it that we are going to their time not vice versa.
Welcome! What a phenomenal introduction to your channel. I have never read this book but I loved The Last Temptation of Christ. You have sold me on the immersive nature of this book. I will add it my list. Thank you.
Thank you for the lovely welcome. I like your Week of Reading approach as a model to follow.
Scallydandling about the books How nice of you to say! I like it because I read a lot of books and it allows me to do both mini reviews, share what is in motion and hear ideas and thoughts on what I am considering so it can be a bit more interactive. Having a reason to film and post each week is key for me. I will look forward to your videos!
Wow, what a great first video! You made me very curious about this book. Also, I love your channel name. Welcome to Booktube, I already look forward to your next video.
I am stunned by how welcoming this corner of booktube is. Thank you!
Great talk and first video! Intriguing book, I'd love to see what you will be reading in the new year 2020,let's get to it! :D
I have got some lovely books lined up but my eyes are bigger than my stomach sometimes with reading. As you say let's get to it!
ROS!! So exciting to see you started your own channel. And with your inimitable style. What a wonderful New Year's gift to us. IF I can read that specific translation of Zorba the Greek I will STILL picture Anthony Quinn as Zorba and hear the enchanting music in the background. ❤❤❤
Ah Alba now I feel thoroughly welcomed! And yes Anthony Quinn will always be in my head. It is funny that everyone believed he was really Greek rather than Mexican.
@@scallydandlingaboutthebook2711 So, Ros, which translation do you recommend for Zorba?
@@seriela I think the Peter Bien as it is more faithful.
Hurrah!! You made your own channel. This is great.
I knew nothing about this author or his work. Thanks for the information.
Thank you Brian. Your channel has been an inspiration as you seem to fit it with a busy life and often keep the content substantial but the style simple. If you can record in your car I ought to be able to manage it in the house!
@@scallydandlingaboutthebook2711 You are too kind, but if in any way I encouraged you to start this channel then I fell as though I have contributed to something good taking place.
I was just wondering about this book so so glad this one popped up
Sometimes it feels like TH-cam can read your mind. It's a good book apart from sexism intrinsic to the period.
That was one of the very best - if not THE best - first videos I’ve seen on Booktube. And you’ve made me more keen to read Zorba the Greek than ever. And you’ve renewed my inquisitiveness about the role of our contemporary social templates mapped onto works that precede them. Bravo!
Thank you for the kind words Jason. I feel thoroughly welcomed to booktube.
Welcome to BookTube! I have numerous thoughts on this video:
1. You always have to pick up the cat.
2. I can't believe you did this whole thing without editing and got it so spot on.
3. You're very persuasive particularly about Zorba , character and the descriptive elements of the book, it sounds like a very enjoyable read. But the sexism I can see as an issue. I think actually your way of handling it is a good one - flagging it up when recommending the book, making it clear that you're not endorsing those opinions and letting people go in informed, and acknowledging that it can be upsetting/maddening while still appreciating the book. On the other hand, every culture is different but people had raised ideas of equality before the 1940s. To me it sometimes depends whether it seems like the author is completely oblivious to their own issues, or it's a deliberate characterisation, or it's actively unpleasant, if that makes sense.
Thank you. I can see you are right about the cat. I think if I need to edit much I will not post regularly so I have got to be bold and accept the odd ummm and pause. Hope people will be forgiving of this. And yes I do feel there has to be some sort of cut off point beyond which certain attitudes are not acceptable. Country of origin plays a part in the calculation too.
@@scallydandlingaboutthebook2711 What I meant was there really were no ums or pauses that were noticeable at all. A fascinating video in any case.
How wonderful to see you with your own channel Ros! No need for any editing, this was a great chat! What a circuitous route the translation into English for this book took 😂 I am now officially intrigued to read Zorba! His character sounds so memorable.
I have the same reservation as you about translations. I read Les Miserables a few years ago and was horrified to see the translater for the Penguin edition had 'fixed up' a lot of Hugo's discursive passages and trimmed the length down by a few hundred pages! I promptly bought a second FULL edition to enjoy instead.
Re: outdated values in classics, I've always found it somewhat absurb to boycott them for that. We're not reading these books to approve of their authors worldview , and we ought to remember how many of the values in our modern works will end up reviled one day too. It seems hypocritical of me to attack a long dead author for endorsing oppression for example, as I type this on my phone powered by a battery with cobalt most likely mined by poor and child workers in the DRC. There always seems to be a degree of complicity in cruelty no matter what age we live in 😔
Anyway, yes please to more cat-holding! Your Minerva is now the second feline Minerva on Booktube (after Claudia's lady at Spinters Library)!
That's pretty shocking cutting a few hundred pages. At that point it is a different book isn't it? What arrogance to feel entitled to do that.
You make a very good point about the potential for hypocrisy in judging authors in the past as if we are faultless now. I think some people do read hoping to have their own values and opinions affirmed but that limits what you can read too much for me.
I have spotted Claudia's Minerva. Obviously a reading woman's cat name.
Laura, I'm shocked! Which full edition did you get next? Another Penguin or a different translation or the original French?
It's so great to see you start your own channel Ros after enjoying the videos you make with Tilly. You are clearly a natural. I'm afraid I've only known Zorba the Greek through clips from the movie so have never thought about it as a book I might enjoy.
As regards the misogyny or sexism I think reading those books can be helpful in showing us how far, or not, we have come and if we never read books with such suspect attitudes we'd be missing out on some wonderful writing. I will roll my eyes but I've never read anything that has completely put me off the novel- although I don't think it helped with War and Peace for example.
I don't think I've read enough translated works to have an opinion on great translators although I did start to read the translation of The Wreath that was panned and I couldn't get beyond fifty pages so clearly there are good and bad.
Anyway, very much looking forward to your content this year and a happy new year!
Thank you Jo. Very excited you found this. Yes I had never read it despite the name being so familiar from the film. Good point about seeing how far we have come. I love War and Peace but definitely an issue in Tolstoy. The older the book the more forgiving I am I think.
And yes getting hold of the Tiina Nunnally translation made all the difference for The Wreath. Good advice from Jason.
@@scallydandlingaboutthebook2711 I think as you say the older the book the more forgiving - but equally the more heartening it us when you find an old book that doesn't have these issues and that seems to express values that we see as more modern.
Hello Ros, and welcome! Fantastic review of Zorba the Greek. I was familiar with it as a movie, but never realized it was an adaptation from a book. Look forward to more videos from you!
Thank you Sharon. Yes the film is so much better known. I was glad to finally get around to reading the book.
I hadn't found your channel before Sharon. I am going to have to trawl through six month's worth of videos!
I saw this movie in defunct Plaza, Secunderabad, India way back in 1966-68. Anthony Quin was my favourite actor. I loved the dance movements of Siratki and attracted by music from Mandolin. The dance and music lingered in memory for a long time.
It is one that sticks in the mind over the years, isn't it?
@@scallydandlingaboutthebook2711 True. The impression was lasting one thereby even today after lapse of decades, I am able to comment about Zorba th Greek
Greece had legendary directors and musicians. Theo Angelopolous the movie director and Elain Korandrou tghe music director to state
@@vijay7415 exactly!
Well done, i think you gave a very good account of this novel. Being of Greek back ground i managed to read the original in Greek.
I think its a superb novel.
Kazantzakis was a very philosophically minded author.
I understand, zorba was inspired by a real live character of that name.
As you stated there are issues if sexism nationalism, and also kazantzakis innovation of writing a novel in the spoken Greek of the time rather than in 'katharevousa' a form of greek based on classical greek which was the norm at his time.
My impression of the essence of the
Book was a meeting of two great minds, both who learnt from each other. Zorba being the less educated
Man who admired his friend:s
Intelllect. At the same time the other also admired Zorba:'s philosophy of living in the moment, of which the dance was so symbolic of.
Talking of translations, i really dont know how i would respond.to it in English. Translation is an art of its own. Some of my favourite novels have been read as translations into English eg 'nausea' by Sartre and several by Herman Hesse such as 'Sidharta' and 'Narsiz and Goldman'
All of which i highly recommend.
Ironically it was the new year when you did the video, and i saw it at the beginning of the next new year of 2021. 2020, has been an amazing year which brings to mind another great novelist, George Orwell.
Wishing you all the best for 2021
Thank you for this thoughtful response. It is sad that in translation one cannot appreciate the distinction of it being written in spoken Greek. I really admire it as a book so I am glad I chose it for my first video.
I have read Siddhartha and The Glass Bead Game by Hesse, but years ago. I should revisit him.
I just finished reading this book and I think you are spot on with your review!
Thank you. It is definitely worth reading isn't it?
Yes, absolutely. One if the things that really suprised me was the influence of Buddism in the book. This made me think of Herman Hesse books, which I love, too.
@@koosb now that's an interesting thought.
Now that I have watched it, I think it is a fair review of the book. I read the Turkish translation of course. It is certainly written well but I could not get my hatred of two sexist main characters, especially Zorba. And it is a fantastic video for a first Booktube video. You look so relaxed after 30 seconds.
It is not a straightforwardly likeable book. The sexist elements are very strong. I am glad you think I was fair.
I had done a couple of videos with Tilly so that helped.
Well there's me thinking that Zorba The Greek was just a Greek tune! Great well balanced review. Yes I have personal lines I draw. I respect what you say regarding translations issues. Thank you
Thank you. Yes the tune is now better known than the book. I regularly have to revisit where my line goes these days.
Welcome to BookTube, Ros :)
Mark I just noticed I did not reply to your welcoming comment at the time. Making good on that now!
Such a great discussion, Ros. I’m pumped that you’re starting a channel!
When it comes to problematic content in books, I think there are a few considerations I take into account. (1) Is that perhaps the *point*? If the book seems sexist, maybe it’s a commentary on sexism (not that I think that of Zorba the Greek, I’m just using sexism as an example). When you read something like Huck Finn, it’s obviously full of racist language and beliefs, but it was also a portrait of a time and place and at least in part is a commentary on the racism behind that language and those beliefs. (2) How good a book is it actually? Maybe it has some problematic content, but if it’s excellent, then I’m happy to point out and criticize the problematic content in it while also acknowledging that it’s a good book anyway, like you basically did with Zorba the Greek. On the other hand, a book that’s obviously sexist *and* terrible doesn’t really deserve defending on any level, in my opinion. (3) What were the standards of the time in which it was written? Chaucer shows some anti-Semitism if I remember correctly, but that was normal at the time. Again, I think it’s still crucial that we acknowledge and discuss this fact (that Chaucer shows anti-Semitism and that anti-Semitism was pretty common at the time), but I think we can do that without coming to the conclusion that Chaucer is, therefore, a bad writer, or ejecting him from the canon and never reading him again.
Yeah, I guess those are my thoughts as they stand now. They’re not fully formed by any means and I feel like they don’t apply all that well to contemporary literature. But I only read books published before 1500 anyway, so what does that matter to me? 🤪
You are right that there are some real nuances to this. It would be daft to criticise an ancient Greek dramatist for having slaves in his plays or Chaucer for moments of antisemitism. As we move closer to the present day the rules shift a bit. I think Huck Finn is clearly written with good intention and that counterbalances the element of patronising racism. I read Kim by Kipling this year and there is the same balance to that as Kipling is clearly fascinated by and admiring of Indian culture but still writes from a white imperialist perspective. I loved the book all the same. My niggling worry about the sexism in Zorba was that Kazantzakis thought he was presenting outdated attitudes that he did not hold himself, but on another level was he unconsciously relishing writing about an era when women knew their place?
AMAZING! I can’t believe that was your first video. It was wonderful and I don’t think you should worry to much about an um here and there. Editing can take so much time, and I thought you were incredibly articulate and posed great questions. Tilly is right - always pick up the cat. There ARE cat people on Booktube and we love to see the tail back and forth. These are the videos I dream about making and this one is your first. Splendid. Happy New Year!
Kelly you are kind. Thank you for being so encouraging.
I think Minerva will pop up again. I know Blue has made the occasional appearance and Brian's dogs keep wandering into his videos.
Welcome to BookTube, Ros! So delighted by your channel, which I discovered through Brian at Bookish. Consider me subbed! :)
Brian is brilliant for making connections between booktubers. Now I have found yours too.
@@scallydandlingaboutthebook2711 Outstanding! :)
I think you did a wonderful job of describing this book. The sexism ... I married and lived in Greece for 5 years DURING the 1980's and this book was true to the life even then. I lived that life and I did not see a problem with Kazantazakis' works at all. I read this in Greek. If one is living in that foreign culture, what right does one have to criticize? I chose to live there by their rules and abandoned my own Canadian openness and individuality. Dancing is VERY much a male pastime of deep emotional ties to the national heritage.
Even in the 1980s? That's fascinating if alarming. But as you say, if you are the incomer you have to adapt and accept a certain amount. Wonderful to have read this in Greek.
I love Zorba, the Greek! I do think we should read older books to understand what the attitudes were. If we sanitize the past, we kind of erase the overcoming of injustice, in a way. Also, there are still societies that do those kind of honor killings! Lovely review!
You're absolutely right about books giving us that understanding of the times when they were written. I try to read things from other cultures and parts of the world for the same reason.
Right on, Roz! Brilliant! Now? Now, I'd like to see you pick up and play that ole _guitar_ as I did mine in my last vid, lmao!
Alas I am not the guitarist in the house Allen. The Clarice Lispector arrived yesterday. Need to finish something else first so could start that on Sunday if that suits you.
@@scallydandlingaboutthebook2711 I still have to order it, tomorrow; shall finish it in by month's end. Are you on Voxer? It's a great way for BookTuber's to communicate without disclosing any personal info, like phone numbers.
@@bighardbooks770 yes I am on Voxer as Rosamund Cook rcook1438. I accidentally created a second Rosamund Cook as I was setting myself up and haven't worked out how to delete it yet.
@@scallydandlingaboutthebook2711 allen770 Can you find me?
Great video! Ros, do you watch Claudia from Spinster's Library? She has a cat called Minerva too!
Yes I do and had discovered that. Obviously the best name for a booklover's cat.
I have very much enjoyed your videos with Tilly and am delighted that you have started a channel. As usual, this was a very insightful and fluent discussion. I find that sexism or racism does affect my enjoyment of a book. No doubt that is in part because I find them morally objectionable, but also presenting one-dimensional or stereotypical characters diminishes the quality of a book. A sexist or racist book may have many artistic merits, but the sexism or racism is an artistic defect because it prevents the author from fully realising and truly presenting all their characters. If you have a distorted perception or understanding of women or people of other ethnicities, you will be less good at getting inside their heads and writing about them. And that will affect the artistic, as well as the moral, quality of the book - the two are not completely independent, as some maintain.
Thank you Daniel. You are so right about making some characters one-dimensional. I found that with Madame Hortense in Zorba who is the most substantial female character. She is meant to be funny and touching I think but I found this a weak point of the book. Thinking about the various responses to my question I think part of the answer is a difference between the author giving characters attitudes that we disagree with but are part of a rich characterisation and the author's own sexism or racism imbued in the writing. When it is the latter then it depends on the other qualities and rewards of the book. As Lukas said, we're not going to stop appreciating Chaucer because he is antisemitic when his overall sensitivity to the human condition is so great and takes us into the medieval mind.
Calmly, unhurriedly, I read the letter. It was from a village near to Skoplije in Serbia, and was written in indifferent German. I translated it:
I am the schoolmaster of this village and am writing to inform you of the sad news that Alexis Zorba, owner of a copper mine here, died last Sunday evening at six o’clock. On his deathbed,
Just few lines from the book about “Zorba the Greek” or Story about SERBIAN in Island of Crete
Welcome to booktube, Roz! (Or is it Ros??) Anyway, happy that you've decided to start your own channel.
Thanks Britta. I have had such fun watching and commenting on channels like yours that I thought I would take the plunge. It's Rosamund so usually Ros but Roz is fine by me.
@@scallydandlingaboutthebook2711 Thanx, Ros!
@@scallydandlingaboutthebook2711 interesting because a biography I read last year, Tolstoy, the author name is Rosamund Bartlett
@@alanshadastrokeanddiedinho2897 there are a few of us Rosamunds and Rosamonds around. My favourite namesake is the author Rosamond Lehmann.
Very good first video.
Thanks Alan. Looks like you are quite a new booktuber too.
You hit the ground running with this very enthusiastic and well reasoned review.
It was interesting to hear about an author which was totally unfamiliar to me.
😂Your channel name “scallydandling” sent this curious American down a google rabbit hole. The definitions I found for “scally” + “dandle” didn’t seem to fit the bill. Is it a local term in south England for brainstorming, musings or chitchat, etc?
Good luck for much success with your channel.
Thank you Mary. I'll try to keep it up. I got the word via a very old lady from Brighton that Tilly cared for a few years ago. She used to talk about how she went scallydandling about the town when she was young, meaning roaming around having fun. It was too good a word to let slip out of use. The Sussex accent and dialect are dying out now and it seems a shame sometimes.
These are interesting questions in translated fiction - accuracy, authenticity and poetry. I was reading a philosopher called Emmanuel Lévinas, who a Jew from Lithuania, wrote and lived in France for most of his long life after coming to study as a student. I was reading him in translation and found the translations were dry and was in France and picked up a short book which is an interview with him and realised my schoolboy French was good enough to read and understand him in French and I discovered the translations felt forced and harder than the original. I then bought many more of his works in French which thanks to FNAC and Amazon.fr are cheaper than the English translations and grew to find him more interesting in the original language. I often get books in both French and English, Italian and English or German and English (The latter as I live in Germany and am learning German) - the quality of translation does matter.
I remember watching Gerard Depardeaux as Cyrano de Bergerac with subtitles in the cinema and realising part way through that the subtitles of this verse drama were in English verse too. I think Anthony Burgess had done the subtitles - they were superb.
How wonderful to have the knowledge of several languages to check the quality of translations of the books that interest you. I have failed miserably in this respect. I feel translators have a difficult balance to find between literal accuracy and capturing literary qualities of the work. Tough job!
@@scallydandlingaboutthebook2711 I remember in Latin O-level class translating some VIrgil and thinking that there were two words I would like to use here in English but that I had to choose one. I wanted to have two "fluffy clouds! with the two ideas in them in the one spot. Translation is so hard as you have to make choices. I definitely slow read in other languages compared to English and my biggest problem is knowing the cultural background - like Goethe and Schiller - though I have now seen more of these two in the theatre than any of my evening class participants LOL
I have also seen ten Shakespeare plays in German - which is fascinating - Henry IV Parts 1 and 2 were done together and it had the best version of the Shooters Hill scene followed by the Cheapside Tavern - I have ever seen and they did it with three actors and a video camera.
Shakespeare in German!
@@scallydandlingaboutthebook2711 Shakespeare is very popular in Germany and our local theatre does a Shakespeare each year. Interestingly they use modern poetic translations not the nineteenth century ones used in schools and several English speaking friends who go to the theatre like these translations as do I as they are more understandable.
Remember Goethe's first play was a Shakespeare pastiche.
No worries about pronunciation of the his last name. Greeks have difficulty to pronounce foreign names too like SERB they pronounce ZERB??!! Anything pops in your mind?
Stratis Myrivilis's "Life in the tomb"is one of the greatest anti-war novels ever written!
M. Karagatsis's novels(especially "Sergios and Bakhos")!
These writers are of the same era and are(personally for me of course) greater writers than Kazantzakis.
As for Kazantzakis I think his greatest book is 'The Last Temptation ". An alternative, insightful and very... brave telling of the life of Jesus.
Thanks for the recommendations. I have had a quick look and sounds like the Generation of the 30s is really important for Greek literature. Sadly there's not much available by Myrivilis or Karagatsis in print in English. The Great Chimera by Karagatsis is one. It is odd and frustrating how some writers are neglected and others stay in print. I suppose a film connection helps. I should read The Last Temptation too.
@@scallydandlingaboutthebook2711 You're absolutely right. I think that, not only in Greece but generally all over the world, literature of the past(let's say until WW2) was far better that it is today. As for Greece, the generation of the 30's was indeed the most remarkable.
(I think you can find in English Myrivilis's Life in the tomb)
Thanks for the reply.
@@CaptainHarlock-kv4zt alas only for about 50€! But I know to look out for it now.
@@scallydandlingaboutthebook2711 5O euros? Shame on them!!
I’m not a fan of modern fiction. Politically incorrect, older books always seem to resonate with a realism and honesty I don’t see so much today. Yes, they’re jarring to our sensibilities, but more emotional and real as a result. Zorba is in fact the funniest book I’ve ever read.
It is a funny book you're right. I didn't comment on that enough. And yes I think the honesty meant I didn't find the attitudes too off-putting. I loved it as a novel. I am also a fan of modern fiction though. It's not an either or question for me.
Is the clue in the book’s title any thing to go by quite frankly you have mist it he point.
I don't actually understand your comment Gregg but not to worry.
Kazantzakis believed that the purpose of life is to transform matter into spirit. Zorbas = matter/body, Writer=Spirit/soul/psyche. Without that concept I believe is difficult to understand the book. The writer (kazantzakis) is paying a tribute to the body and save it from death. Zorbas (matter) is now an immortal spirit. Regarding “sexism”, zorbas (body) is loving women in an unconditional form, the writer (soul) is trying to avoid sex and the society, being extremely uneducated, doesn’t respect them. You also have to compare the writers point of view for men who are presented as cruel stupids. Balance the view out and there is no sexism on that book. Both body (Zorbas) and soul (writer) accept woman as they are and stay with them until their deaths. Remember that the old women of the village are those who demand the murder. In any way, I find it inappropriate to discuss sexism for that book. I feel that is degrading the great philosophical argument of kazantzakis into political correctness discussion...
That's an interesting perspective. I see what you are saying and I do think we should be cautious in applying 21st century standards to writers from the past. But I also know that any woman reading this novel nowadays will be struck by the sexism. It is no insult to Kazantzakis to recognise that he was a man of his time and regardless of his sensitive and sophisticated philosophy, he had attitudes that were normal then.
Did anyone compare Kazantzakis with Marquez?
I wonder. Would you compare them? Kazantzakis is more realistic I think.
Supernatural combined with atrocities of civil war, passage of time, lust and fate all playing their own role in the family's history from the founding generation to the seventh generation in Marquez One Hundred Years of Solitude. But I like Zorba more because he lives in the present and enjoys life in its mundane aspects. Work, women, God, nature everything get a special connection to Zorba's philosophy of life while his theoretician boss misses charmness of mundane life. Zorba is great
@@kuttikuttan yes that makes sense now you explain.