Those solid noggins are actually just as structural as herringbone strutting. They help "load share" between joists, & stiffen them by reducing the effective length of joist by restraining it
...but good video and nice job, they look more proper than solid noggins. I think it's because the struts can be made nice and tight more easily. If you cut the herringbone strut a smidge too short, you'd simply rotate it until its tight in. They're better I reckon
Hi Tom thanks for viewing, I was told they can become loose over time when the joists dry out and shrink , and a old school fix for this was to fit a iron rod through the lot and tighten it up ! , Ive never seen it so far but you never know what you’ll find on a old building
@@comfortablynumb8832 I had 4 inches in spots. It was a terribly done addition. The good thing was they used 2×10 lam beams for joist! So I was able to sister to those and cross brace it. Was a pain in the ass. But better than tearing out everything amd stating over.
You've made a fine job go that Chris. I have some to do and I simply didn't have a clue how to calculate the lengths and angles, but now I know. Can't wait to do it and much quicker than the way I'd have tried by measuring and using a bevel. Really helpful, thank you.
I have seen a few videos on this same project and you most definitely explained it the best. Thanks much! Now, my turn on my house except it's from underneath because my floors are all finished and my wife wants them to stay that way..Hahaa!! Cheers!
@@HIGHVOLTAGE-CAT yo, I gotta fix my subfloor in a couple weeks, how far apart should I put the rows and how many rows should I do from the outer wall to the middle beam? I haven't measured the running length but it's around 12-15 feet
I used solid noggins between joists in my son's house, same depth as joists, screwed and glued with each one slightly staggered so I could screw through into it. Surely a solid noggin does the same or better job? Joists cant twist and any movement is 'shared' with the adjoining joists and so on outwards. Certainly it reduced the 'bounce' considerably.
superb jo Chris, I just want to put in a few that when I step they act just like the beams in two places. the beams are fine I have to replace what you walk on as what was put in is not solid like the original floor. would you recommend just putting in a few solid pieces across?
It's interesting that you say that effectively noggins do not do anything structural. In a 1940s property I am renovating, esp in the bathroom that will be tilled, so no flex is a must, the current herringbone struts didn't stop the bouncing at all, but noggins did sort the bounce. Could it be because at 80+ years old with timber drying and shrinking slightly they are not as tight as once fitted?
I’d say so , you get the same problem with old noggins when the joists dry out and shrink over time a gap is created those the joint strength is poor, I read about method to remedy this when using noggins they sent a long iron bar through all the joists with a threaded end and steel plate and effectively cramped them together tightly to keep the joints tight
@@m.o.2085 I know the sort of thing your referring to , a large inch diameter iron rod through the walls with a big cast iron plate on it , you see them on old buildings sometimes, and there was a old episode of Fred dibnah fitting one on his house as there was a large bulge to the rear of the property! 🙂
I did what he said and it worked really well when I installed a new floor/joists. Straightened up bowed floor joists and I could tell that it stiffened up the joists. I'm curious where he from, Wales or Scotland?
The first time I’ve ever seen this demonstrated! I always see it in old houses, with two nails at each end (are those screws OK, are they structural screws? Is 1 screw OK do you need 2?) But this was great and the explanation was good too.
@lockyermachining . I would say that wouldn't put a screw in the middle it would stop them from flexing which is what you need them to do in order to strengthen as weight is placed upon them
My wife says listening to you give her fond memories of her birthplace. She was born in Toddington, near Dunstable. she wants to know where you are from.
Nice job! Does it work, when bend is caused by too long floor joist (without middle support)? I mean so long, that joist is already bending down because of it's own weight?
You can’t , you would have to go with another solution like doubling up the joists (sistering) or glue and screwing multiple plywood strips to the side of the joists to laminate it , stagger the joints on the plywood strips
Wouldn’t one solid piece of 2x8 blocking or whatever the floor joists are made of, be stronger? That way the wood gives the support and not just the nails and you only need access from one side, above or below, to fasten them in.
They dry out and become loose over time , I’ve seen it were a long threaded rod passes through the joists to keep them tight, also the solid noggins stop air flow
Definitely giving this a go in our 1920s terrace, the bedroom floor is proper bouncy! What size wood would you recommend for the herringbone pieces? Cheers
Great video, thanks. I really need to do this (novice) but only have access from above. Where would you recommend screwing the lower section of the strut to the joist from? Cheers.
I think you would struggle, next option is to strengthen the joists either by doubling them up ( sistering ) look it up ,ie introducing a similar sized joist to the side of the existing joist and bolting them together or glue and screwing multiple 18mm plywood strips to each side of the joists making sure to spread the joints of the strips at least a meter apart from each other , if I doubt contact a reputable joinery contractor and discus your problem with them , good luck with your project Chris
Floors are done but finding that the floor bounces a lot. I don't want to undo that because it'll cost thousands. I do have access to the joists under the house, would I be able to do this with the screw going through the side of the top herringbone? The bottom of the herringbone is fine as I can screw in as normal.
Hello , not sure what’s going on,a new floor shouldn’t be bouncing, sounds like it’s been calculated wrong, ie the joists are the wrong size , look at my other reply’s regarding joist strengthening, ultimately you may need a carpenter
Just when I thought I knew everything... Do you have an opinion on where in the span to do this? Middle? Or do it twice at the one third from end? thanks
good video mate,how would leave a 12mm space from top of strutting and bottom so it does not protrude through ,your answars would be appreciated thanks
hello!, the first two lines that you mark on the joist are simply the depth of the joist so say it was a 200mm joist you would mark 200mm on top, so to get 12mm down from the top and 12mm from the bottom , just knock off 24mm from your joist thickness, regards chris :)
Hi Chris, this is awesome. I can't take the finished flooring off but have access to the crawl space underneath, can you screw them all in from beneath?
James Macpherson yes you would have to pre-drill With a drill bit so not to split the timber and skew two screws in from the side of the Strut and a dap of glue would help to !
@ yes just like sistering the joists which of course is adding another joist at the side of the existing joist , you can add multiple 18mm plywood strips the same depth of the joist to both sides , with plenty glue and screws ,
@@HIGHVOLTAGE-CAT would you have to do the sistering running the full length of the joist, on both sides, and do it to every joist for it to be effective? Or could you skip every other joist etc?
@@wearetemporary traditionally sistering consists of bolting a similar size joist to the side of another, usually because it is rotted on the end etc and the old one can’t be removed, laminating a beam with strips of plywood glued and screwed is recommended on both sides of the joist and every joist, it may be worth you hiring a structural engineer to work out loads and a solution for you ..
It’s best to lift a few floor boards, unless it’s a chipboard floor , no screw in the x , you may be able to pilot drill into the side of the timber and screw through the side
That was interesting. How many 'rows' of the herringbone strutting do you have to do, ie, is there a required building regs spacing between each full row? I have that awful 8 x 4 chipboard sheet flooring in my house...terrible stuff when you're trying to lay new cables/pipes. I like the musical saw ..I'll be trying that next time I reach for mine! Thanks for posting.
Hi, i second that question please! How many rows does a floor need? I can only access under the floorboards, would it still be ok with screws from under access as I can't screw from above. That probably doesn't make sense!
Yes screws in the bottom to, it’s better to put two screws in the top and two in the bottom, and it helps if you pre drill the wood half depth with a drill bit to stop splitting but that’s optional
Question for a total noob. What size/kind of wood are you using for the strutting? How spaced apart should this be done across a room? I see in the early part of your video you have already done one side. Is there a spacing requirement for a large bedroom, for instance?
@@HIGHVOLTAGE-CAT One more question, so thank you for answering. If I can't get underneath to screw in, how else can I do this method? My bedroom joists are stilling on a flat surface, there is no way under. And which bolts to use? Sorry for the questions, but I have new carpet coming and wanted to fix squeaky floorboards but our bedroom has slightly bouncy feel. Makes cupboard doors jiggle etc, so thinking I might need to support the joists.
@@christhake usually screwed in place. Not bolted, , tough to do if you can’t get access underneath, another method to strengthen joists is to add 18mm plywood strips to the sides of the joists, both sides , glued and screwed, like a laminated beam
@@HIGHVOLTAGE-CAT My only issue there is I would need to lift every floor board up :( Would blocking work? then I'd only need to lift two lengths of floor board and use your method but with one piece of wood instead of the scissor effect. Would this suffice?
@@christhake , it would stiffen it up , only way to know would be to try it , squeaky floor boards need to be lifted, to see if there’s any low spots that need packing , and the screwed down
The comment about the metal option at 1:45 had me chuckling pretty good. Well said.
It’s true I’ve seen it in new builds, they asked me what could be done… I walked away £££££
Now that I realize that I've been WAY overthinking my project...
Excellent video!
Brilliant! I'm doing it now in my house and it works! No more bouncing cabinets upstairs!
What an awesome tip. I’ve always been intimidated by this project but I’m now looking forward to it. Thanks.
Thanks 😊
Those solid noggins are actually just as structural as herringbone strutting. They help "load share" between joists, & stiffen them by reducing the effective length of joist by restraining it
...but good video and nice job, they look more proper than solid noggins. I think it's because the struts can be made nice and tight more easily. If you cut the herringbone strut a smidge too short, you'd simply rotate it until its tight in. They're better I reckon
Hi Tom thanks for viewing, I was told they can become loose over time when the joists dry out and shrink , and a old school fix for this was to fit a iron rod through the lot and tighten it up ! , Ive never seen it so far but you never know what you’ll find on a old building
I’ve mostly got out of the joinery game now , and do a little bit of sculpture on my channel.. have look !
I jacked up my floor an inch and used this method with great success! Thank you!
Did your floor have a lean? Ours dose we’re wondering how to repair this
@@comfortablynumb8832 It had a terrible lean. I put sleeper joist in too combined with this method
@@michaelgriggle5601 ours leans about 3 inch, how flat is yours now?
@@comfortablynumb8832 I had 4 inches in spots. It was a terribly done addition. The good thing was they used 2×10 lam beams for joist! So I was able to sister to those and cross brace it. Was a pain in the ass. But better than tearing out everything amd stating over.
@@comfortablynumb8832 I can send you pics of it now. It's a bathroom
Love a bit of herringbone on traditional builds, id always leave a slight gap between struts to eliminate squeak and they scissor when walked on
Good idea 👍
LOL at "sexy struttin" at 5:45 mark. Thank you for this. New house build, we might need to do this in one area of the house.
😅 that was the original name of the video... didn’t get many hits for years 😂
Great video. I only have access underneath. Can this still be done?
Just used this method to cure a bouncy upstairs bedroom floor. Fantastic job. So easy. Top marks from me, thanks.
Great to hear !! Glad it’s sorted out your floor 😊
Do you have to do one line or the entire floor
You've made a fine job go that Chris. I have some to do and I simply didn't have a clue how to calculate the lengths and angles, but now I know. Can't wait to do it and much quicker than the way I'd have tried by measuring and using a bevel. Really helpful, thank you.
very well constructed floor, I am going to implement this into my current floor project. thank you
Omg, its the same angle. Brilliant!
Screws instead of nails. Man after my own heart. Nice video.
Used to go though boxes of 4” nails on site back in the day .. don’t seem popular now
I have seen a few videos on this same project and you most definitely explained it the best. Thanks much!
Now, my turn on my house except it's from underneath because my floors are all finished and my wife wants them to stay that way..Hahaa!!
Cheers!
You, good sir, may have solved my issue with bouncy old bedroom floor! Well, I will try it first to be sure but it seems promising.
Fantastic video and how to. thank you!
A NEW SUB here.
DAMN!!!!
Exactly what I was looking for.
Thank you!!
Thanks what is it your doing ?
@@HIGHVOLTAGE-CAT working on my 100 years old floor :)
Lots of noise to remove !!!
@bigoper 100 years old ! I bet it’s well nailed on
Fair play mate, I’ve done loads of floors and that’s some good info for me thanks 👍🏻
Thank you It’s a lost art , not many joiners know how to do it ! .. they have the metal ones but they can be noisy and squeaky !
@@HIGHVOLTAGE-CAT yo, I gotta fix my subfloor in a couple weeks, how far apart should I put the rows and how many rows should I do from the outer wall to the middle beam? I haven't measured the running length but it's around 12-15 feet
I used solid noggins between joists in my son's house, same depth as joists, screwed and glued with each one slightly staggered so I could screw through into it. Surely a solid noggin does the same or better job? Joists cant twist and any movement is 'shared' with the adjoining joists and so on outwards. Certainly it reduced the 'bounce' considerably.
Great video. I had to watch a few times to catch sound of making mark in other joist out of camera.
Th as no’s Bob , possibly my broad Bolton accent 😅, wood isn’t the only media I work with , have look around my channel 🙂🔧
Great work. Many thanks for sharing your knowledge.
superb jo Chris, I just want to put in a few that when I step they act just like the beams in two places. the beams are fine I have to replace what you walk on as what was put in is not solid like the original floor. would you recommend just putting in a few solid pieces across?
Solid ones aren’t great , you can add to the sides of the beams to make them thicker , it’s called sistering joists you can Google it , thanks Chris
It's interesting that you say that effectively noggins do not do anything structural.
In a 1940s property I am renovating, esp in the bathroom that will be tilled, so no flex is a must, the current herringbone struts didn't stop the bouncing at all, but noggins did sort the bounce.
Could it be because at 80+ years old with timber drying and shrinking slightly they are not as tight as once fitted?
I’d say so , you get the same problem with old noggins when the joists dry out and shrink over time a gap is created those the joint strength is poor, I read about method to remedy this when using noggins they sent a long iron bar through all the joists with a threaded end and steel plate and effectively cramped them together tightly to keep the joints tight
I read that in a very old building book 👀🙂
Yes, although that sounds like a structural wall tie.
Thanks and good luck with your projects.
@@m.o.2085 I know the sort of thing your referring to , a large inch diameter iron rod through the walls with a big cast iron plate on it , you see them on old buildings sometimes, and there was a old episode of Fred dibnah fitting one on his house as there was a large bulge to the rear of the property! 🙂
I did what he said and it worked really well when I installed a new floor/joists. Straightened up bowed floor joists and I could tell that it stiffened up the joists. I'm curious where he from, Wales or Scotland?
Glad it worked for your, I’m from Bolton, near Manchester
The first time I’ve ever seen this demonstrated! I always see it in old houses, with two nails at each end (are those screws OK, are they structural screws? Is 1 screw OK do you need 2?) But this was great and the explanation was good too.
Nails are old fashioned now , not used much in the building industry, although I’m old enough to remember using them , either way is fine
MUST WATCH till the end!
Don’t forget the end screens !
@lockyermachining . I would say that wouldn't put a screw in the middle it would stop them from flexing which is what you need them to do in order to strengthen as weight is placed upon them
My wife says listening to you give her fond memories of her birthplace. She was born in Toddington, near Dunstable. she wants to know where you are from.
Bolton unfortunately…🙂
Just what I was looking for, cheers dude 👍. A nice likkle project there 😂👍🏼
The ins and ooouts and whats it all aboout
Nice job! Does it work, when bend is caused by too long floor joist (without middle support)? I mean so long, that joist is already bending down because of it's own weight?
How do you secure the bottom screws without access from below?
You can’t , you would have to go with another solution like doubling up the joists (sistering) or glue and screwing multiple plywood strips to the side of the joists to laminate it , stagger the joints on the plywood strips
My top floor condo bounces so much the person walking below my unit cause my floor bounce. Is it the joists
Wouldn’t one solid piece of 2x8 blocking or whatever the floor joists are made of, be stronger? That way the wood gives the support and not just the nails and you only need access from one side, above or below, to fasten them in.
They dry out and become loose over time , I’ve seen it were a long threaded rod passes through the joists to keep them tight, also the solid noggins stop air flow
Definitely giving this a go in our 1920s terrace, the bedroom floor is proper bouncy!
What size wood would you recommend for the herringbone pieces?
Cheers
3x2 is best thanks Chris
Great video Chis, i cannot screw from below the floor, can i screw the toe from the side? Not the same but no way of getting underneath
@handymanTW12 you’d have to pre drill , glue them and make sure they are a tight fit
@@HIGHVOLTAGE-CAT legend, thanks mate. make new videos if u can
How can we join these woods from top side i have similar issue in the first floor but dont want to rip off ground floor ceiling
Nice to see someone else playing the banjo saw haha
You just saved me a few quid will use up that 2x4 instead of getting 2x10
Can you do a video on the same but for a floor which can only be accessed from the bottom, please?
It would be exactly the same!
Great video, thanks. I really need to do this (novice) but only have access from above. Where would you recommend screwing the lower section of the strut to the joist from? Cheers.
Underneath is really the best option, you could try the side , by pre drilling a hole for the screw
What if you dont have access from the top ?
I think you would struggle, next option is to strengthen the joists either by doubling them up ( sistering ) look it up ,ie introducing a similar sized joist to the side of the existing joist and bolting them together or glue and screwing multiple 18mm plywood strips to each side of the joists making sure to spread the joints of the strips at least a meter apart from each other , if I doubt contact a reputable joinery contractor and discus your problem with them , good luck with your project Chris
Really useful, thanks
Floors are done but finding that the floor bounces a lot. I don't want to undo that because it'll cost thousands. I do have access to the joists under the house, would I be able to do this with the screw going through the side of the top herringbone? The bottom of the herringbone is fine as I can screw in as normal.
Hello , not sure what’s going on,a new floor shouldn’t be bouncing, sounds like it’s been calculated wrong, ie the joists are the wrong size , look at my other reply’s regarding joist strengthening, ultimately you may need a carpenter
This is a brilliant video! Thank you!
Just when I thought I knew everything...
Do you have an opinion on where in the span to do this? Middle? Or do it twice at the one third from end? thanks
Mrdubomb every 2 meters span fix one row, but you can add as many rows as you think is appropriate if it’s a oddball size say 5m put two rows in , 👍
Can this fix a sagging floor?
No you have to ask why it’s sagging, joists to small ? Not enough joists ? Rotten joists…
Great advice, how far apart do you space each run of struts?
One row on floors up to 2.5m wide , and two rows equally spaced on floors up to 4.5m wide
Brilliant explanation! Thanks so much.
A pleasure thanks for viewing, lots of weird stuff on my channel!
Cool. How many rows across a span of joists should you do it?
If my floor already has weight would i need to jack it up that 1/8” to then drop ones its i install the wood bridging?
Tomas Garcia it wouldn’t do any harm to jack it up 👍
chris the bodge thanks alot
Done !!!
Tomas Garcia cool !
Is there a way to do this when the joists can only be accessed from below?
He how neat to see this! Ive walked on floors where it felt like it could come down any moment. This might be just the thing for it. :D Nice tutorial!
good video mate,how would leave a 12mm space from top of strutting and bottom so it does not protrude through ,your answars would be appreciated thanks
hello!, the first two lines that you mark on the joist are simply the depth of the joist so say it was a 200mm joist you would mark 200mm on top, so to get 12mm down from the top and 12mm from the bottom , just knock off 24mm from your joist thickness, regards chris :)
Hi Chris, this is awesome. I can't take the finished flooring off but have access to the crawl space underneath, can you screw them all in from beneath?
James Macpherson yes you would have to pre-drill With a drill bit so not to split the timber and skew two screws in from the side of the Strut and a dap of glue would help to !
Really helpful, is there a way to fix if you can't get underneath ?
As a alternative to herringbone struts , people strengthen joists by glue and screwing strips of plywood to the sides of the joists
@@HIGHVOLTAGE-CAT Could you explain this option more? Do you mean like sistering the joists?
@ yes just like sistering the joists which of course is adding another joist at the side of the existing joist , you can add multiple 18mm plywood strips the same depth of the joist to both sides , with plenty glue and screws ,
@@HIGHVOLTAGE-CAT would you have to do the sistering running the full length of the joist, on both sides, and do it to every joist for it to be effective? Or could you skip every other joist etc?
@@wearetemporary traditionally sistering consists of bolting a similar size joist to the side of another, usually because it is rotted on the end etc and the old one can’t be removed, laminating a beam with strips of plywood glued and screwed is recommended on both sides of the joist and every joist, it may be worth you hiring a structural engineer to work out loads and a solution for you ..
I don't understand how this is better than solid inserts ,somebody please explain.
Solid inserts stop airflow, these act in a scissor action and move with each other to stop bounce
@@HIGHVOLTAGE-CAT Many thanks.
Is there a way to accomplish this totally from underneath as my floor is intact. Thanks
It’s best to lift a few floor boards, unless it’s a chipboard floor , no screw in the x , you may be able to pilot drill into the side of the timber and screw through the side
That was interesting. How many 'rows' of the herringbone strutting do you have to do, ie, is there a required building regs spacing between each full row? I have that awful 8 x 4 chipboard sheet flooring in my house...terrible stuff when you're trying to lay new cables/pipes. I like the musical saw ..I'll be trying that next time I reach for mine! Thanks for posting.
Hi, i second that question please! How many rows does a floor need? I can only access under the floorboards, would it still be ok with screws from under access as I can't screw from above. That probably doesn't make sense!
how far apart would you space these ? thanks
One row central for a floor up to 2.5 meters wide and two rows space equal for floors up to 4.5 meters wide
@@HIGHVOLTAGE-CAT thanks man
Does anyone know if this method would conform to current building regulations in 2021?
Did you put a screw in underneath afterwards?
Yes screws in the bottom to, it’s better to put two screws in the top and two in the bottom, and it helps if you pre drill the wood half depth with a drill bit to stop splitting but that’s optional
What size screws did you use?
Very sexy strutting! It's cool to see what people really do. Nice vid.....
Also, if I'm putting in more than one strut across multiple joists, do you put them side by side or do you stagger them? Thanks, Mike
Side by side , around 2 meters apart or divide the room up equally
Question for a total noob. What size/kind of wood are you using for the strutting? How spaced apart should this be done across a room? I see in the early part of your video you have already done one side. Is there a spacing requirement for a large bedroom, for instance?
Rows of struts are Usually 2 meters apart, and 3”x2” timber
@@HIGHVOLTAGE-CAT One more question, so thank you for answering. If I can't get underneath to screw in, how else can I do this method? My bedroom joists are stilling on a flat surface, there is no way under. And which bolts to use? Sorry for the questions, but I have new carpet coming and wanted to fix squeaky floorboards but our bedroom has slightly bouncy feel. Makes cupboard doors jiggle etc, so thinking I might need to support the joists.
@@christhake usually screwed in place. Not bolted, , tough to do if you can’t get access underneath, another method to strengthen joists is to add 18mm plywood strips to the sides of the joists, both sides , glued and screwed, like a laminated beam
@@HIGHVOLTAGE-CAT My only issue there is I would need to lift every floor board up :( Would blocking work? then I'd only need to lift two lengths of floor board and use your method but with one piece of wood instead of the scissor effect. Would this suffice?
@@christhake , it would stiffen it up , only way to know would be to try it , squeaky floor boards need to be lifted, to see if there’s any low spots that need packing , and the screwed down
What size timber do you recommend for nogging, 2x2, 3x2?
3x2
Please can you do mine 🙏🙏🙏
Work of art 😍
Brilliant
That’s was the best and easier way.
Great stuff here
Thank you
You actually can get a stronger floor than that
"they sell metal ones in stores, but they're for pussies" hahahaha
its true Jeff ! thanks for viewing :)
Have you got an email address or Instagram account. I need to show you a picture to a problem I have. It's hard to explain with words.
Hahaha sexy strutting , you seace to amaze Chris
Gaaa Rodge...not Gare-ige
Lol
This accent is rough
Sorry about that! 😅