Ludwig Black Beauty - The Evolution
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 1 ต.ค. 2024
- The Ludwig Black Beauty snare drum is legendary and the history of this model quite interesting to say the least. Based on information that I learned from The Drum History podcast Ep. 44, and by reading old Ludwig Catalogues I recap how this drum evolved over time. Some of the information found during my research was contradictory but I did my best to cross reference my data with internet searches.
I also highlight and play my own personal Black Beauty which was my first professional quality snare drum. It was gifted to me back in 1981 by my father who purchased it new from Guitar Center in North Hollywood/Studio City. I knew it was a special drum from the day I got it, but didn't really appreciate as much as young kid as I do now.
I hope you enjoy the video!
These have become incredibly expensive. Beyond most budgets. You can get nickel over brass from other very reputable brands for less than half the cost.
Hi Ryan. The super early ones ones are astronomical and it’s hard to find one from the late 70s early 80s. If you do those are very expense as well. Obviously there is a premium for owning a piece of history and collectors bring up the price. The new ones are more reasonable, but as correctly point out, that there are similar drums for less money. Thanks for watching and for your input.
You can buy a black nickel over brass from other brands but it won’t be a black beauty.
All of the Ludwig premium drums are priced high.Reason being,my opinion,is that top end Ludwig and Gretsch drums hold their value over the years for resale and collectors...
How do you know if your drum is made of bronze? I have one from the late 80s.
@@thomasdevino3876 Hi Thomas. The late 80s version should have a stamp underneath the butt plate. BR for Brass and BZ for Bronze. Let me know which one you have.
Surely the most recorded Ludwig drum is the 400 model, not the Black Beauty??
I agree. While there isn’t any formal records of this, it’s widely believed that the 400 is THE most recorded and the BB is right behind it. In the video i said that the BB is “one of most”. This is to leave room for the 400 likely taking the number one spot.
Quick Question I was talking with another drummer and I own a Ludwig LB417BT and the other guy has a vintage black beauty snare and he proceeded to tell me that my snare was not a real black beauty. Because the process changed from older one to modern version and I basically had a pimped up supraphonic. I was like okay and went away. So is there a difference or he was talking crap.
Hey Simon, A superphonic is aluminum while a black beauty is typically brass (could be bronze). I don’t know the “BT” at the end of your model number but yours is a black beauty. I don’t believe they make black nickel aluminum snare drums. I don’t keep up as much w modern offerings as i do the vintage lines.
It’s important to mention that these drums, and how the materials were made, have changed so much over time and a drum from the 20s is not the same drum as one from the 70s, 90, or a modern one. As an analogy, your situation is like someone who owns a 1950s Mercedes tell you that you don’t own a Mercedes because yours is newer. Totally different car but both are a Mercedes.
The hand-hammered bronze snares of the '80's were some of the best sounding drums I ever heard. I bought one in the early nineties and used it on a lot of recording sessions. Basically a Black Beauty that's not black!
BTW- I never heard an old Rogers kit ever sound that good. Maybe you did the bearing edges or maybe it's the heads- they sound phaaatttt!
I’ve never played one of the hand hammered ones but was always curious to try one out. You’re the first person to give me first hand feedback. I hope you still have yours!
The Rogers kit is all original. Late 60s: 13, 18, and 22. The 18 floor has 4 legs. It’s the best sounding kit I have. I did a video on it a few months back. Check it out !
th-cam.com/video/2EJjmOVvNek/w-d-xo.html
@@eddieavakian Back in the mid-80's I bought a hammered bronze snare after reading Alan White's comments about his. Unfortunately I was too young to really know what I was doing at that stage in life, owning it during the last of my teens and into my early 20's, and I have only faint memories of it - although I do remember a producer once telling me that it sounded fantastic to him, using the phrase "it sounds like a sample!"
The Black Beauty.
Often imitated,never equaled.
Cheers.
I had a 1920 Black Beauty.....$100 in a pawn shop.....Sold it for $500 5 years later...Wish I had it now...............Ralph Onofrio.
I’ve heard a few stories about pawn shop scores. I did a video on a guy who found a rare early 1900s Sonor that was being used as an end table.
Eddie, awesome show! I learned some very cool information! Thanks! You played excellently too! I subbed!👍🏻😎
Thank you for the kind words Earl. It was an inspired video for me to make . The BB in this video was my first legit snare drum and it has significant sentimental value as well.
I think if ludwig had never used the black nickel finish it would have just been a brass snare, which every company makes today, I bet if you asked people they dont know the black beauty is just a brass snare drum, many think it is somthing "magic" only attainable buy purchasing one. A great sales factor for ludwig.
They would't have been given that name, that's for sure. It wasn't even Ludwig that came up with the name, but the drums looked amazing, especially with engraving and sounded great. The real marketing was that they were used by so many top drummers of the time and were on so many recordings. That's a tried and true formula still being used by drum companies today.
I liked the Rogers champagne sparkle kit. And the Ludwig Black Beauties, of course.
Thanks Alan. Yeah. I just can’t get myself to swap out this Rogers kit. Its so much fun to play. But If I had a Ludwig kit, I would have used it for this video.
Great video thank you! I’ve played a 70’s BB and the studio that sounded awesome and I own a B stock re-issue. Biggest difference I saw were the rubber grommets between the lug and shell on newer model, but wasn’t aware of the altered manufacturing process! Great playing and sounds by the way 😊👍🏼
Hey thanks for the positive feedback. Means a lot! Yeah the manufacturing between the spun shells and the later methods is significant. But the entire line up of these drums is just so great. And Great move on the B stock!
I've owned 3 in the past two being an early 70's and have to be honest I don't see what's so special about them, I much prefer my old 70's 402 !!
I don’t have any aluminum shells at all. I need to pick one up for sure. I do love the early 80s one I’m playing in the video. It’s a tank of a drum and it’s tuning range is extreme.
No disrespect to the sound of the black beauty sound, but seeing how you are using a Rogers drum set, I can't understand why you don't use a Rogers Powertone snare drum. Is your drums from the fullerton era?
No disrespect taken! I obviously love Rogers vintage drums. This kit is a Covington/Dayton eta. I did a video on this kit - see link- In that video I’m using a COB powertone. My favorite snare is a late 60s wood powertone. I also did a video comparing a Pioneer to a Luxor. Those are both great snare drums as well.
th-cam.com/video/2EJjmOVvNek/w-d-xo.html
That’s why brass shells are so wonderful.
I thought that the Ludwig 400 Supra was the most recorded snare drum in the world.
That’s my understanding as well. The black beauty is supposedly behind it. There are no official stats on this but it’s widely accepted that those drums are the top one and two. In the video I say that the black beauty is “one” of the most recorded drums, not that it’s THE most. I left room for the Supra as it’s likely the number one.
I though Conn bought Ludwig in 1928 or 29..From Ludwig….and not 1930…as stated in video?
I read and heard as early as 1928 and as late as 1930. I can’t be sure but I figured it’s possible the sale agreement took a year or two to be finalized so I went with “by 1930” instead “in 1930”.
Looks like a de- evolution to me. The current model appears cheaper to me and less appealing.
Yeah It’s my opinion as well but I tend to favor vintage gear in general. More character. But I do like the new strainers.
I have a one of a kind Black Beauty , It's only engraved on the top half of the shell ....
Yeah I’ve never seen anything like that. Approx what year ?
Are they back for good?!? Or a limited run?
As far as I know, they’re making them as part of their normal line. But I could be wrong. I don’t have any inside information about their future plans.
Great video Eddie I’m a sub now, I have a short story about winning a Black Beauty SS. Nashville 1980 . It’s about who the Judges were and who was also in the contest plus what happened at the very end of my solo. My 15 minutes of fame
Thank you so much for the sub! I'd love to hear that story. Can you scribe in the comments? I am sure other girls/gals would love to hear it as well. Do you still have that drum?
Those 1920's Ludwigs are amazing. Whoever has the De Luxe that was passed down by Papa Jo Jones to Billy Cobham to John Riley is one lucky mofo. Even if I could afford one, I'd be afraid to own it, because I'd want to play it all the time.
Yeah. I love vintage drums but I can’t get myself to buy one that I can’t, or feel guilty playing. Those early De Luxe models are museum pieces but they do sound amazing! Thanks for watching
I have 6.5 LM-402 which is just as great as the black beauty!
I have a 1930 ish Black Beauty/given as stolen by military... looting
I have a brass on brass black beauty from the 90’s period. Ihe throw comes out. Broken and stuck in the snare position though
You probably have a P85 strainer. Those are notorious for sticking. I don’t know for sure what strainers have the same hole spacing but you should call a drum shop and ask and replace it. The new strainers are really good. You have a great drum there.
@@eddieavakian thanks for that tip will do👍
Wow! That is truly a 'beauty'! And thank you for a little history value. I'm learning something.
Thank you so much! I got to learn more about my own drum researching all of this as well.
Great info and nicely presented. Thanks for the post! Love it.
Had to leave a comment because I've never seen another drummer run the train beat with one hand while playing ride/hi hats, that's been a secret weapon I've used for years now lol
Hey thanks! Yeah it’s a great groove concept. I got from Pete Thomas. He played it on the Los Lobos track Whiskey Trail and a similar groove for Squeeze track called Third Rail.
Like your Rogers kit.....My good friend Bob Crelin,is the designer.....
Thank you. Was Bob a designer back at Covington Ohio? I
No,Bob was the designer for the new drums.Dynasonic snare,drum sets, tom and leg holders, colors.@@eddieavakian
@@RalphOnofrio got it. The new Rogers kits are well made drums and sound great
simply excellent playing and info - can you please tell me exact tuning on your opening snare sound, top and bottom head? And what cymbals you are using? thanks
Thank you for the compliment! I tune by ear but the tune-bot showed both heads tuned to a B3. I usually tune the bottom head higher but that’s not how this drum ended up for me. The hats are 15 inch meinl extra dry and the ride is a 22” meinl extra dry. Happy to provide any further information. Thanks!
Great video. Your drum seems to have some strange “homemade” ? snareguard attached to the bottom rim that I’ve never seen before.
The snare guards are Ludwig parts. Don’t know the part number. The late 70s drums had the ones you see here. The older ones had a more solid and flat faced guard. I did have some repairs done by Ross at the Drum Doctors here in Los Angeles but he old used original parts. It was a while ago and I don’t recall what he replaced.
I see. Thanks for the reply.@@eddieavakian
Just a quick note Conn (and Ludwig) was purchased in 2013 by Paulson & Co. Inc., an American investment management firm.
Yeah I believe that Steinway purchased Conn and the selmer company which was then purchased by Paulson. It’s hard to keep up w the corporate pac-man game. They still make great drums. I recently purchased a couple A & F snare drums that I love. All hand made, imperfections and all, like the old days.
@@eddieavakian Unlike other drum companies that were taken over by corporate interests Ludwig has continued to produce fantastic drums. I wouldn't trade by Classic Maples for anything. Let's hope the hedge funders continue to keep the right drum people in place. I bet your A&F snares are fabulous! Have heard nothing but great things about them. Cheers!
Great video! appreciate you doing this.
Thank you so much! I had a blast making it and I’ll be making some new ones soon.
Great video. I miss my super sensitive, but I do have a few supras that I love. My Black Beauty is my favorite, it’s a 6.5, which I prefer for its versatility.
Thanks. Glad you checked it out! Sounds like you got a solid line up of snares. As far as Ludwig’s, I also a jazz fest, a Supra and a 14 x 8 Classic Maple.
I just got a 1920's Ludwig NOB 5x14. It's got the 2-piece brass shell, 8-lugs, single flange hoops, and has the bearing edges that go back into the shell and are soldered. Amazing sounding drum.
Amazing drum for sure. Please let me know if you list a video of it. I’d be interested in seeing it. May I ask how much you paid for it? I understand if your prefer not to get into that. Thanks Patrick
Awesome as always brother.
Was it the drum you were playing that was the gift from you dad?
That drum sounds absolutely incredible
Thanks man! Yeah that’s the one. It was my first legit snare drum. I really loved it back then, but I have so much more appreciation for it now. Plus it has that sentimental value that makes it more than just a drum to me.
@@eddieavakian It sounds so good.
That's mostly due to the tuning and the cat playing it.
Fantastic video... you continue to be an appreciated source of inspiration
@@Rogersdrumvideos oh man. That means so much brother! Thank you!
These drums are great. If you can’t find a 70’s pointy badge one. Take a look at the Joyful TKO brass. It’s honestly a black beauty on steroids. If you’re on a budget take a look at the Made in Japan Yamaha brass models 80’s 90’s. Those are better then the new black beauties too at a fraction of the price.
Never played one but I hear they the Joyful is a great drum. Haven't heard much on the MIJ but I will look into them for sure. Thanks for the heads up.
I ordered an 8 lug 14 x 6.5 black beauty for my 40th birthday. I'm 41 and 1/2 now, and it's still backordered through guitar center. It's very weird. Very frustrating. Its impossible to get ahold of Ludwig to figure out what's going on.
It’s a great choice. There are a few available thru reverb. Can you get a refund and purchase one of those? The ones a saw are B stock which usually have nothing noticeable wrong and sold at a nice discount. I purchased a supra b stock and I can’t find a single blemish.
Wonderful information and killer drumming and tones!
Thank you!
Thanks, man!
Fantastic information and great playing
Thank you so much! I really appreciate it.
Is that a vintage Rogers kit? It looks flawless if it is...beautiful!
Yes! It’s a late 60s. I got lucky and bought from a guy who refused to ship it so it went unsold for a while. I drove from LA to Napa to pick it up. I did a video on it if you want to check it out.
th-cam.com/video/2EJjmOVvNek/w-d-xo.html
Made in the USA not China
One of the very few things still make in the USA! 😁
@@eddieavakian Exactly
I own 5 snares. A Mapex 5.5 x 14 Birch, a Mapex 3 x13 piccolo, a Gretsch 5.5 x 14 Mahogany, a Tama 8 X 14 steel and a Ludwig Supralite 6.5 X 14.
My Ludwig is the best sounding most versatile snare I've ever owned. And it was very inexpensive. Changed the stock head and it sounds incredible.
Hey Mark. I’ve never played a Supralite but one of my best sounding snares is a raw steel 5 x 14 A&F. Steel is that perfect balance between aluminum and brass. Not too dry and not too resonant.
Just looked up the Supralite and a new one is only $200! Thats unreal.
@@eddieavakian It's insane for the money. I had sound engineers record my snare sound to sample it because they were so impressed.
@@markmullen1852 It’s my next purchase! Thanks the heads up on this.
@@eddieavakian Not a problem. Sounded good after tuning it out of the box. Sounded amazing after putting a Remo CS black dot underneath head on it. You can make it sound like a super fat 70's sounding snare, ( Mick Fleetwood) or crank it up and it cracks like Bonhams. Best $200 I've ever spent.
Nice vid, hope to see more like this :)
Thank you James. I’m currently working on some ideas for some future vids. I love vintage drums and drum history so that’s my focus at the moment. I appreciate you watching and providing such a positive comment. 👍
REALLY ENJOYED THIS. THANK YOU SIR
Thank you Duane! I really appreciate you taking the time to drop your comment and happy that you enjoyed it!
Yeah a 12 lug is awesome and even rarer with a Evans dry is kick butt die cast rims
I’ve never seen a 12 lug. It’s got to be a very limited run or some kind of special order ?
Great video and extremely informative
Thank you Stuart. I appreciate it!
Best video about the black beauty 👍
Thank you Yvan! It means a lot to me to have you say this.
Perhaps notable in regards to sound characteristics is that those early 1920's snare drum bearing edges were double folded over closing that "U" shaped metal channel that modern metal snares have just under the bearing edge all the way around. I think this gives the drum a warmer sound. I actually have a a 1923 era engraved Black Beauty snare like this.
I’d love to grab on the those older BBs but they’re out off the charts expensive right now. The one I have is a totally different drum obviously but I do love it.
in actual sound terms what does "warmer" mean?
@@krusher74 Warmer meaning less like a sharp metal tone and a bit of what you may expect out of a wooden Slingerland Radio King....but the 1920s Black Beauty will have more volume when you need it; more than the Radio King.
Great info and nice playing!
Thank you Jeff! I appreciate it!
Great content 👌
Thank you so much! I appreciate you checking it out and giving me positive feedback.
Thanks for the video
Thanks for watching it. I love this drum.
Copper also sounds good
I never owned a copper snare but I have an A&F kit that’s copper. Sounds amazing.
Thanks! Great work and playing! So is there a sonic difference between the Bronze Black Beauties and the standard Bronze Modell (without the nickel plate), both from the 88-91 run? And is there a difference between the pre-serial COB chrome plated models from the late 60's and the Brass Black Beauties which started in 1976?
Thank you for the compliment! I’ve never played the bronze but it’s my understanding that the shell specs are the same and I don’t expect there to be a sonic difference due to the plating. I’m speculating that they took advantage of the popularity of the Black Beauty to sell more Bronze drums.
Now the very early BBs compared to the 1976 are totally different drums. A welded shell v a seamless shell, different hardware etc. The spun process of the earlier drums was also less consistent than the later process so there are differences among the older drums. The saying goes that If you find one that’s in great condition it’s probably not one of the better ones. The beat up ones are the ones that people played the most. I’m sure this isn’t true but it supports the idea that they were less consistent than the later models.
Great video ! I had a 1988 black beauty super sensitive 6.5x14 new. Sold it years ago. I found an early 80s black beauty super sensitive 5x14 a few years ago. Great sounding drums!
Thanks Jeff. They really are great sounding drums. I’d love to get one of the early ones but they’re so crazy expensive. I’m sure your early 80s one is super nice. The one that I played in the video was my first real snare drum. I didn’t know how spoiled I was!
excellent video!
Thank you so much! This drum has a fascinating history so it was satisfying to go thru it’s history and put it all on one video.
@@eddieavakian yeah, for sure. it's amazing how the sound of this drum is noticeable among others. I guess I can't wait to catch up with who was playing em. thanks so much for your reply! Matt (drums)
Well done! Love what you are doing
Thanks man. Back at ya. Couldn’t have done it w out you! Your podcast is the gold standard for drum history.
fascinated by the fact that black beauty was originally a nickname. fantastic video!!
It’s something that I didn’t know either for most of my drum playing lifetime. It’s really an interesting history. I actually just posted a video that goes back even further in to Ludwig’s earliest history. Check it out. It’s a fascinating story. Thanks Jayyless!
th-cam.com/video/Py1clIzR-pY/w-d-xo.html
Great Hands..😊
Thanks Thomas. I appreciate your positive words!
Awesome video. Clear, complete, and simple. Covering how these are actually manufactured is something I did not understand before. I always wondered how a metal shell could be seamless. Many thanks!
Thank you J. The research for this video was inspired by own curiosity about their process. Once I figured it all out, I thought it was fascinating and that more people would want to know. I enjoyed making this video and so glad that you enjoyed watching it. Thank you!
Good stuff, you should do one on the legendary Supraphonic.
Thank you Dave. Yeah I’d love to hit that one (pun intended 😁). My last few vids are based on drums that are in my collection. I have only a few more before I run out so I appreciate tips for new topics.
@@eddieavakian Sounds like a great excuse to buy some more snare drums!
@@sparknado Sure is! 😁
That crash sounds amazing! Which one is it?
Thanks Steve. It’s a 20” Agop dry crash. Super dry and trashy but records like champ! It does it’s thing and then shuts up pretty quick.
@@eddieavakian thanks for your reply!
@@SteveOGonzalez of course! Glad to help!
Absolutely great video!
Thank you Ryan! I appreciate the feedback
@@eddieavakian I will definitely reference this video to my students who really appreciate the history and culture of percussion. We would love to see more! Do you have a Patreon or other means for community support?
@@ryanrussell2032 thanks Ryan. At this point I have been making a few videos w the vintage gear that I own and don’t have a significant platform anywhere. I’ll keep making them until I run out of drums, then I’ll buy some more! Lol. If you want to see some good drum history content, Anthony Amodeo goes deep into Rogers. You should check out his Facebook page. I have two other videos that you may want to check out. 1. is on my lates 60s Rogers and 2. the other is on two 6 lug vintage snare drums: pioneer and Luxor. Some history is discussed in those as well. Thanks for watching Ryan!
I always wondered why vintage Ludwig metal snares (80s and older) sounded different from their modern counterparts, despite being the same metal and same overall design, and I think you have answered that for me! The spun-shell technique vs the hydroforming must be the reason, taking away the inconsistencies that I'm sure gave the older drums their "mojo."
I have a 1965 Supraphonic that is just superb, and it just has a certain character that the modern version does not have. I love that drum!
Like you said, those inconsistencies give every vintage drum a different sound and mojo. It’s also why I’m going broke buying so many drums! 😂😂
@@eddieavakian 😂😂😂 truth!
Great history, thanks for sharing.
Thank you so much!
Great history video. Thanks for sharing 👍👍
Thank you David! And I appreciate you taking the time to check it out!
@@eddieavakian Keep groovin'! Best 👍👍
@@davidcurtis4478 thanks brother. You too!
Thanks for the history on these. I hand engraved loads of these for Ludwig in the 90s.
Very cool. I’d love to see some of them. If I find one, will it be yours or did they have other engravers as well?
@@eddieavakian A majority were mine, but I believe John Aldridge did some. Mine would be signed with either “RDS” or “Reid D. Smith - RDS Engravers” inside beneath the vent hole.
@@reidsmith9575 ok cool. I’m going to see if I can track one down!
Nice fat sound
Thanks Chris. This drum is a tank and it does it all. There’s not a tuning it doesn’t like.
@@eddieavakian Never used the BB but have for years used the 6/12 'Bohnam' snare.
Fantastic durability.
@@christrudell7966 it’s on my list. In fact I don’t have any aluminum drums at at all. I have brass, bronze. Steel, and even a titanium. Supra is my next buy for sure.
@@eddieavakian good stuff Eddie! Keep em coming
@@christrudell7966 thanks brother. Will do!
thanks!
Thanks for checking it out Julian!
Aluminium the Best sound
I own so many snare drums not no aluminum. I definitely need to pick one up. I have brass, bronze, copper, steel, and even titanium.
...and this is very, very true. Cheers
I prefer my Tama Starphonic alu (seamless shell) over my Ludwig BB... sorry guys
@@drummerboyharm3078 the day I got the BB that I’m playing in the video back in 1981, I also got my first “real” drum set. A Tama Superstar. I still have it today. It’s awesome. I love Tama but have not owned a Tama snare. I’m sure it sounds amazing. Thanks for watching man!
@@eddieavakian Hi Eddie. it's a great video you've made about a nice piece of history! Thanks! Kind regards from The Netherlands 😁