Absolutely one of the best Vortex videos made. When Ryan is quiet and all ears, you know whoever is talking possess an encyclopedia of knowledge in regards to bullets and ballistics. I could listen for another hour. Great job guys!
Everything was so well explained in this video. Thanks for the efforts made to simplify things down, much appreciated. I feel like I learned a lot from this video. Love the podcast. Sam
Love the podcast! Really cool to see both companies working together to make an info-packed and entertaining podcast. I still would love to see a podcast about big-bore rifles and cartridges sometime!
This was simply the most amazing and informative video on ballistics I’ve ever seen. Can’t wait for part 2, 3 or more! Loved how Ryan was soaking it all in.
Funny how The hornady says that you want 2 to 3 feet of penetration and don't want jacket core separation, but they still produce SST and ELD-X which shatter at close range
They’re definitely rib cage bullets up close but once they slow down a little they get more penetration. There’s a website based out of New Zealand that has a ton of great information about the ballistics of various cartridges and they talk about using a candle to anneal the ogive, (specifically the sst)really simple process and you only have to do a few bullets for hunting use. I’m going to give it a try.
That was a great video! Thanks ONE QUESTION I specifically would have liked to have heard is at 1800 and 1600 fps what is the actual average expansion size or amount (%) in 10% ballistic gel? What does Hornady consider sufficient expansion, so to actually call it “expansion.” Is that expansion consistency the same across calibers and or weight? Ok, that was two questions. Nonetheless, great video.
This dude is a treasure trove of knowledge. These points should be considered required knowledge for anyone planning to hunt big game (or talk about it on the internet).
One of the most informative and well presented videos I've seen on ballistics so far, what an interesting person, as someone who works as an engineer in another field this is fascinating, so many parallels drawn from my perspective.. I'd love to have heard more about how varmint bullets vary from the big game constructed bullets and how they work in detail as that's more my thing, especially the 17HMR which is a Hornady developed cartridge.. Maybe another time?
IMO an Excellent Podcast .. So many things were covered in terms of BallisticsPerformance and it was gr8 to get confirmation of what to use when and where and reconfirm uses for the different projectiles ..From this Podcast it helps to better identify Key facts that Hunters need to be aware of when chosing their desired Bullet. Projectile Placement is the precursor to Projectile Performance on Target. Velocity Determines Perforamnce up to the Maximum Distance that the Bullet is designed to Kiil at. ie Anything below that Number is where the projectile wont Mushroom/Open up and do it's Job properly in the Hunting arena. The more i read and watch these types of information sharing today as Hunters we need to realise we must as hunters and shooters understand how and what the projectile Will do--- out to your max hunting range whatever that maybe..it doesnt matter if it 100y or 500y Still each one has optimal range it will perform at some(Projectiles) more thans others. Their are a myriad of options today and it on us to get it right Thanks again i feel better informaed to make good call on my Ammo
You guys have become one of the most underrated channels. You are going to explode once people catch on. Keep bringing this top tier information. Great stuff
Excellent Podcast. Loved every second. Thanks Hornady and Jayden for the great knowledge and information. I would love to see Jayden return. Thanks Vortex, Mark and Ryan, another great show.
A++ Hornady and Vortex, two or the leaders in firearms technology providing a erudite discussion of pushing the boundarys and limits of post-modern firearms techn as we know it. More Please!
I've heard people complain about the .270 winchester in that way. I even heard a guy say that a .270 wouldn't kill a deer, but I've never seen a whitetail that didn't die quickly if not instantly after being hit with a good quality 130 grain .270 soft point.
@@jl123ist I’ve killed over 20 Texas whitetail with a Hornady 130 gr 270 win. Ranging anywhere from 50-315 yards. The damage I’ve seen has sometimes made me think the 270 is overkill for whitetail. I haven’t had a chance to test on mule deer or elk yet, but 270 Win is a helluva deer killer..
@@Huckleberry_Hunter I agree, it is a fantastic deer killer. I killed two 100lb does with one shot from a .270 win 130gr winchester soft point they were perfectly lined up with each other and both dropped instantly.
I only hunt woods, so I'm not much of a practiced long-range shooter, but I can say that I love the Interlocks and V-Maxes in my rifles and the XTPs in my handguns. All of those have given me good accuracy and consistency in my handloads. The 140 .277" Interlock is the only one of those I've taken game with, and the buck trotted 15 yards on a double-lung shot before laying down to expire -- great performance.
Awesome video, super informative. The Hornady ballistician truly is a wealth of knowledge. The ELD bullets are amazing ballistically but I do wish hornady would at least acknowledge the large amounts of ELD-X exploding at closer range/high velocity...
Yeah, lots of people shooting the eldx are shooting big magnums at max velocity because “long rang hunting” is all the rage right now. The trouble is that physics is a thing, and a bullet that is capable of expanding 800meters down range is going to have trouble holding together when it hits an elk 75 yards away at Mach 3.
@@Cowboy.underwater And the thing is you don't even need a magnum for long range. A slower (2600-2900 fps), heavier, higher bc bullet will have enough range beyond most peoples shooting capabilities, and will work better up close and have less recoil. But unfortunately people think they need the biggest cartridge they can get, then theyre afraid to practice with it cause of cost or recoil, and they can't hit most things well enough to kill with it anyway
The eldx come apart bad up close. Shot 3 deer wtail, at 30,55,75 yards. I did kill the deer every time but no exit wound at all just blew apart after 6inches. And it was a slow gasping kill. I wasn't impressed. Def need a bonded option . Cx don't shoot good outa my gun. I now use federal terminal accent. Those things are hammers. Best I've seen ever!
I think you should make this one a series if possible. I feel that internal balistics doesn't get talked about enough and should be a much bigger factor especially when choosing a rifle for hunting. After some unexpected bullet failure I am switching to premium bullets for deer as well as elk. Hornady is the only brand I have good availability for and what I have seen of the gilding metal monolithic bullets requires higher speeds for them to open well. Monolithic bullets are becoming a popular premium option but I think many don't think about the fact that if they had favored heavy bullets for penetration in the past they still probably want to step up lighter both do to the increased length but also needing that higher velocity at impact. Since they are going to penetrate better anyway higher speed will make for cleaner kills. For those who are realistic about their range many larger bores are actually going to make for the best option since do to the way internal balistics work they are going to give the highest velocity with the least amount of powder volume and shortest barrel length. Many magnums actually are loosing much of their advantage with short hunting length barrels anyway. The weight of the powder column along the jet affect of smaller bores is going to give them higher recoil to actual muzzle energy compared to the same energy produced by a larger bore and smaller case. What seems important is to keep the highest energy over the expected range and to pick a rifle that fits that in the weight and recoil a hunter finds best. This new long distance shooting trend has helped to make very light bullets be the popular thing but I think for many they struggle to see the whole picture and often pick a round based off of fewer factors than they should. It would be great to see more information get out there especially now when people are starting to realize that there is more to it than just how fast a bullet leaves the muzzle. With the right factory support something like the . 350 Rem mag using copper bullets in the lighter weights would have made this a fantastic elk rifle out to 300 yards but at the time it wasn't really ballanced enough with the factory ammo available. I think it would be great to get this information more mainstream since the average hunter doesn't sort through white papers and look for expansion studies at specific ranges although TH-cam has gone a long way to improve this.
I primarily shoot factory Hornady and Barnes, I am not impressed entirety with the ELDX at closer ranges. But at medium to extended ranges the bullet has shined for me. For all ranges and game the Barnes TTSX has been the go to
I love Hornady 150grain spire points for my old 30-06.i loaded a ton of them back in the 1970s,with my dad.i still hunt with them.i have several ammo cans full .they are excellent for hunting deer and black bear .I trust Hornady bullets.
I know you are talking to Hornady, and I use the 308 Interlock bullets, never had a deer walk away form it, but the Nosler Partition and Accubond are great killers, close or far.
Great discussion...do you have a good reference guide that gives minimum velocity and still achieve proper expansion for Hornady bullets? I am interested in the SSTs and the ELD-X for deer in 30 cal guns.
@@Aerosith In the following video they stated that the minimum expansion velocity for the CX bullet is 2000 fps. th-cam.com/video/7DdNXtfWeWw/w-d-xo.html
The GMX (now CX) is my deer hunting bullet of choice. Accurate across calibers and no lead bits in the meat. That said, 2000fps at impact does little more than dislodge the plastic tip. My tests (not scientific enough for most) suggest these bullets need closer to 2300 fps at impact to expand SUFFICIENTLY. There's a difference in "expansion" and proper expansion. Great bullets but not long range bullets due to higher impact velocity requirements. Check the expansion tests at various distances on the Frontline Rejects TH-cam channel.
Interesting content, good advice on selecting bullet type depending on applications. Here as much as I test and research different bullets, calibers, etc.... the locations we hunt the good old fashioned plain base hard cast 405g bullet has worked for decades on my end, and a century plus some on the large scale. We see some gravitate back to these basic old designs in those that have the same application, but good to see advances in other applications that we as humans 100 years ago never really did on a regular basis.
Nice episode! I wish they would have touched on the ammo case design and the newer brass/steel base case, the steel base and stainless cases etc. that the military has now adopted. Explaining the huge advantage in higher case pressures and reloadablity. The bullet always gets all the glory tho :)
Have you ever noticed how different bones break in unique ways. Thats why I never shoot on the shoulder or the front leg. All those leg bones break like porcelain, pieces shooting all through the good meat. Whereas ribs kind of break like wood or branches, it kind of just splinters and cracks out of the way of the bullet. Theres also less meat around the ribs to waste.
I’ve used hornady bullets on coyotes, wood bison, grizzly bear, black bear ,caribou and Yukon moose. I’ve always had great results with hornady bullets.
Just recently rewatched this and another question I would have asked on the end would have been something to do with metallurgy. Great episode and all the respect. I think the metallurgy of modern (and legacy) projectiles could be an entire episode on its own.
Interesting point about the accuracy of bonded bullets. I'd never heard that and thought the piss poor accuracy I got with bonded bullets in my .243 was just a quirk of my individual rifle.
Last year, predeer season, I reloaded some Hornady 140gr Monoflex Bullets. They were in a .308 Win at about 2650 fps MV. The first hunt out my grandson shot a nice 3x3 whitetail buck. The shot was taken at about 90yds and hit the deer high on the shoulder. The deer dropped on the spot. After that, every one switched guns so they could use that .308 for the continuing deer hunt. Over the one month Alberta season the results were 6 Bullets for 5 Bucks. One bullet was a complete miss. The range varied from 90yds to 130 yds. Two of the bullets were recovered with a retained weight of +90% . I highly recommend this bullet caliber combination. Thank you Hornady!
The old spire point 129 in 264 win mag and 139 in 7mm Rem mag,I have seen lots of white tail and mule deer taken cross canyon shooting at 400 to 600 yards back in the 70s and 80s. Bullets recovered were usually on the off side hide perfectly expanded. On the other hand I have shot deer at close range and had three exit holes nasty destruction inside!
My son just took his first whitetail with a 6.5 120CX loaded to about 2950fps 220 yards. This combination is lightning on deer. The damage was contianed completely in the chest cavity without excessive "collateral damage".
A controlled expansion, consistent bullet, that passes through and through is the most important for me. I need full pass through for a solid blood trail. I need it to perform consistently at 40 yards or 400 yards. The Interlock BTSP, or similar (Nosler Partition) provide that. I hunt whitetail and hogs in deep south Texas brush country, where it's vitally important to anchor the animal where it stands, but if it runs, leaves a well defined blood trail into the almost impenetrable thorn brush. I tried SST's and in every case they failed to thoroughly penetrate the animals and in each case they animal some substantial distance. This resulted in my only lost animal in 50 years of hunting. I've recently purchased Precision Hunter ELD-X's, but have yet to see the terminal performance on an animal in the field. My opinion is that BC is a moot point at reasonable hunting ranges inside 1/4 mile (440 yards).
Mike Chance right on! My thoughts exactly! Check out the new Federal Terminal Ascent bullet. Hands down better terminal performance design than any of Hornady's currently offered cup and core bullets. Pushing high BC numbers is a marketing scheme to sell bullets to people who dont understand good terminal performance on game.
I’ve had jacket core separation every time with the eldx and have even lost an animal with it. I see these guys really push the eldx like they been hired or something…
Great video. Wondering what supersonic 300blk bullet would be needed for whitetail? I have used 135gr vmax out of a 10.3 inch with good effect on two deer, but shots are maximum of 75 yards. Now worried that I shouldn't be using it. 😕
I hope the next evolution in bullet design has to be something to replace a lead core in a bullet. I know that monolithic bullets have become pretty good specially in very high velocity loads, but in many calibers, they can't replace the old cup and core bullet. They are just too long for the weight. If they could design a new material for bullet cores that would be the same hardness (or softness) as lead but without the toxicity in could become a game changer for many hunters. To me that would be a big game changer. It would have the same effective maximum range for many existing cartridges and would be applicable to many more calibers.
Hey Hornady. Modern high b.c. bullets are fine and all but please offer more of those legacy bullets again. I use your 30 cal 220gr roundnose bullet. Those are really good even to 300yd. Excellent. Also we need more 338 cal 250gr and please make bullets for the 348win available.
Aaron Wilcox Exactly. Hornady needs to offer a Nosler Partition/Swift A-frame style cup and core type bullet that keeps some weight retention on short to medium range bone/heavy tissue type shots, with an advancement in bullet profile design. The new Federal Terminal Ascent bullet has done exactly this. Which is why you cant find them on a shelf anywhere. The ELD-x has proven to completely shed its core with violent expansion and little to no penetration on these types of shots. Terminal bullet performance matters more than anything else on hunting bullet design, including ballistic coeffecient. ELD-x bullets are target bullets on steroids. Nothing more.
What differentiates a bullet 'pencilling' through an elk from the complete ditching of expansion to get necessary penetration on the big African game? If you can get "full" terminal performance on the large game with little-to-no expansion or turbulent deposition of energy, why then do we demonize the same situation used on a smaller animal (not that elk are necessarily small)? On a deer or an elk, we call it pencilling a needle hole and list it as a failure, but on a big animal that is the entire desire? My best guess is, on the larger animals, we are taking them at such a close range that shot placement hindrances like drop and drift are less of an issue so proper placement through the gold sack is easier, therefore we have less need for additional assistance from energy deposition in a situation we otherwise would need, such as a longer shot on elk or deer where we just miss the vitals, but can generate some temporary cavity damage from the sheer velocity versus the elastic threshold of tissue. The large dangerous game example is a close-range back-to-basics form of killing much like an arrow versus the leeway we try to take with expansion at distance to increase range and ditch a bit of recoil because we no longer need as much penetration since our cartridge's penetration already overclocks the required vital depth of the animal, yes?
What is the lowest velocity of the CX since i hear speed is what makes the monolithic bullets to open? What is also the lowest velocity for max expansion?
Loads of great information here. One point I disagree with was the concept that a hollow point will work like an ice pick going right through. I've actually shot a mule deer with a hornady hollow point because I ran into a situation where I brought the wrong ammo box by accident. So I took what I had and made the shot. The hole going in was the size of the diameter of a pencil. The exit hole was the size of one and a half of my hands fully open with all fingers completely expanded, and it was not clean. In between the entrance and exit holes, all tissue was shredded in an expansive manner the further the bullet went through. It was very evident that as the copper of the bullet tore and curled back it was both compressing tissue and cutting it to pieces. I really questioned if it was also tumbling through compressing & cutting as it went. It didn't simply tear through slightly bigger than the bullet in a similar manner to the shape of an icecicle (long & narrow). As soon as halfway through, there was little left of entire organs. The heart, which was only partly in the path, was completely fragmented. As we're most of the vitals. While there was obviously little energy transfer (punch) impact transfered to the animal, most vital organs were obliterated. There were jagged slice tear marks all over the place on all vital organs. Maybe the bullet broke up and became shrapnel, sending pieces everywhere to slice everything up and still all exit creating the large hole. Though we ran into no fragments in processing or eating the meat. Looking from the exit side, it looked like a shotgun blast hole. It was far from a long, narrow icepick wound.
Just heard that BTHP bullets don't expand; is that also true for shorter ranges & higher velocities, say 100 yards or less? If so, seems like terminal performance would be about the same as FMJ? I'm using 6.5 Grendel, 123 gr. Thx.
I'm confused. According to the ammo library in the Hornady app the 165 gr .308 GMX has a BC of .447. Same caliber and weight CX has a BC of .440. What am I missing?
If you look at the drawings on their site you'll notice the longer but narrower hollow cavity in the GMX tipped by a smaller plastic tip. The copper alloy around that cavity is thicker and will tend to open slower. The CX bullet has a shorter but wider cavity meaning the copper alloy around the cavity is thinner and will tend to open more quickly. The CX should deform more at slower velocity impacts (or longer ranges.) As for the difference in BC, it may very well come down to bullet shape. They are still limited by bullet length allowed for their various loads so they probably changed the shape slightly so it would still fit in the cartridges they load (cartridge base to ogive length) and lost a little in BC. Small differences in BC are negligible in hunting. They only become important at very long distances. From a hunting perspective, bigger differences in BC become important at long ranges where you want the bullet to still have an impact velocity sufficient to allow bullet deformation and give you less bullet drift.
I will second that the bullet shape is different. At same muzzle velocity the trajectories are different, confirming the different BCs. If you are not using a 4DOF or similar calculator,, at Hornady /support/ballistic-coefficient is concept worth knowing.
I was surprised it didn't have a higher BC because Ryan starts a conversation about how good the BC is at about 1:12:20. Made it sound like it was higher than the GMX... but it's not. Lower expansion velocity would be great too.
@@justinbriggs1514 I checked on their site and you're right. Almost across the board the CX has lower BC than GMX. This would mean lower striking velocities at longer ranges that probably means the CX will mushroom more quickly than the GMX or has a lower minimum velocity. They probably did this so it would work better on medium power loads.
to add to his quote near the end "the technology advancements mean we constantly have to reevaluate what's possible" I'm curious to see if direct metal laser sintering (metal 3d printing) can be used in bullet design similarly to how it's used in suppressors and similar things where you can get internal geometries that were previously impossible with normal manufacturing processes and techniques. I think it's still going to be a long time before it's viable on a large scale, but imagine if you could have a CX bullet strategically "weakened" internally in a manner that would allow it to still hold together at higher velocities, but be capable of significant and reliable expansion at lower velocities.
I’m a Midwest straight wall hunter. I’m shooting .350 legend 180 grain power point. I’ve read conflicting opinions if this should be a 150 max vs 200 max round. Academic as most shots are sub 100 yards. Love the accuracy of these rounds
I am a year late watching this, so interesting I extended the view time by nearly an hour. Great topic. I wonder if Jayden is able to hunt without all those facts getting i n the way when trigger time comes?
I watched this a while ago and found more value watching it again. I have been watching with interest the data and performance of 7 mm PRC and have decided to get one. Both as a general hunting rifle and longer distances, if I so choose. So, I could hunt with the Hunter round and later get into LD shooting with the Match round. Primarily that means just switching ammo, put on a 20 MOA rail, zero at 200 and then go for it. although I could put on a 20 to start, zero at 200 and any shot less than that will be in the MPBR and I could dial past that. Either way, I think it is going to be good. Aside from the itch for a precision rifle, and from what I have seen of the SAAMI specs, any rifle build for this has to be precise because of the miniscule free bore, there are drawn hunts in the western part of my state for mule deer and the state says you should be able to make a shot at least 200 yards. I could be ready for that. And maybe, sometime in my life, now that I am getting old, going on at least one elk hunt would be cool. And why the long shots? I have not seen anyone be able to harvest a mule deer or an elk by putting salt on its tail. And on the high plains and desert in the western part of my state, there are not a lot of trees to hide behind. You have to stalk from downwind, set your spot, wait for the right profile, and go. I am reminded of what Ron Spomer said about energy. It used to be that you worried about getting all of the energy into an animal. But there are cases of entry and exit wounds and the animal expired, even though the bullet did not leave all the energy in the animal. And I have read a story of a hunter that shot a deer and it got away. The next season, he shot at another deer and got it. When he examined it, it was the same deer that survived being shot before. How many deer and elk are killed from archery? Plenty. While you have a 200 grain head, the velocity is slower. The damage ocurred which caused the death. That being said, the archery head enters because it is razor sharp. The bullet enters because it is going really fast. I have several .308 W rifles and I have been hunting with one. Cheap and easy to operate, I don't even load for it. I just by factory ammo. At 225 yards and less, the variances that may cause 1 MOA drift are still within the danger zone. But there is a balance between twist rate and speed. I watched the Hornady Podcast #057 about one hole and the reasons for bullet dispersion. Excellent information. Now, I am going to get the 7 mm PRC and I think that is going to get any game animal that I want in North America. I have seen people such as Ron Spomer and others get elk with a 7 mm Rem Mag. I have seen a guy get a moose with 6.5 Creedmoor (Hornady ELD-X 143 gr) out of his Howa 1500 and Burris Eliminator III at quite a distance, with one shot. At first, the moose kept walking like nothing happened and so Rob Arrington waited. Finally he dropped. Sometimes a moose does not realize it has been shot.
The odd bullet out in terms of velocity required would be Barnes "Varmint Grenade". This copper-tin powder filled; super thin jacket will literally detonate even at sub-sonic velocities.
I haven't had that experience. I have a couple recovered bullets at 1900fps shot into pigs with frontal brain shot. The side of the cavity started rupturing and that was it.
I might have missed this and I apologize if I did but I have a question about the outfitter line from Hornady…. What powder do they use? Specifically in the 6.5creed but I’d be interested in other calibers as well. I can’t find that info anywhere online. (Don’t have the updated loading manual so if someone can answer this for me I’m all ears) TIA
For anyone out there that has this same question…..I called Hornady and asked and their answer was, “It depends on the lot, but most of the time they use H4350. Good to know!
An excellent question! Typically, the ammunition manufacturer will use an undisclosed powder in the production line of a very large lot - it is not atypical to find that they'll keep information close to the vest. It would be worth a shot to reach out to Hornady, as they may be willing to relinquish this! - Ryan M
I must be behind the times on hunting bullets. A 154 grain interlock from my 7x57 Mauser (loaded to the capacity of the Remington 700 I fire it from) Has killed every deer I've shot it at from 0-400 yards.
Jayden is a treasure trove of knowledge, and much like Ryan, explains complex details in a way that doesn't confuse laymen. Great podcast.
Absolutely one of the best Vortex videos made. When Ryan is quiet and all ears, you know whoever is talking possess an encyclopedia of knowledge in regards to bullets and ballistics. I could listen for another hour. Great job guys!
Dang it, you beat me to it. A couple of humble guys learning a lot of stuff. Awesome.
I totally agree but most are not hard to beat.
Mark asks thoughtful excellent questions. Thank you Mark.
Incredible episode.
Jayden is an incredible wealth of knowledge.
This must be one of the top 5 podcasts done by Vortex Nation! Great content, so interesting!
Hornady/Vortex pods are what we need more of
Spot on gentlemen, and thanks to Hornady for their great products.
Everything was so well explained in this video. Thanks for the efforts made to simplify things down, much appreciated. I feel like I learned a lot from this video. Love the podcast. Sam
Happy to hear that you enjoyed it Sam!
Love the podcast! Really cool to see both companies working together to make an info-packed and entertaining podcast. I still would love to see a podcast about big-bore rifles and cartridges sometime!
Teamwork makes the dreamwork!
Excellent discussion that covers the interaction between physics and physiology. Hats off to Mark and Ryan for the questions.
It was an informational one that's for sure! Thanks for tuning in!
This is one of the best discussions I have seen in a long time, thanks Mark, Ryan and Jayden.
This was simply the most amazing and informative video on ballistics I’ve ever seen. Can’t wait for part 2, 3 or more! Loved how Ryan was soaking it all in.
Funny how The hornady says that you want 2 to 3 feet of penetration and don't want jacket core separation, but they still produce SST and ELD-X which shatter at close range
If you used a heavier bullet at a lower velocity maybe you wouldn't get such problems.
Sst is not intended for hunting. More for self defense is my understanding.
@@4739-g9c Except plenty of people use them successfully for hunting
They’re definitely rib cage bullets up close but once they slow down a little they get more penetration. There’s a website based out of New Zealand that has a ton of great information about the ballistics of various cartridges and they talk about using a candle to anneal the ogive, (specifically the sst)really simple process and you only have to do a few bullets for hunting use. I’m going to give it a try.
SST’s in the boiler room are one of the most devastating bullets I’ve ever used up to and including elk.
One of the best, and informative videos on the internet! Thanks so much, Jayden!!!
Another one of these is needed! Thanks for all of these podcasts
That was a great video! Thanks
ONE QUESTION I specifically would have liked to have heard is at 1800 and 1600 fps what is the actual average expansion size or amount (%) in 10% ballistic gel?
What does Hornady consider sufficient expansion, so to actually call it “expansion.”
Is that expansion consistency the same across calibers and or weight?
Ok, that was two questions.
Nonetheless, great video.
Definitely a top three favorite podcast you have done.
Absolutely epic, thank you guys for this. I could watch a 10 hour version quite happily! 👊🏻
Happy to hear it! Thanks for being a part of Vortex Nation!
Great episode!!! SO much knowledge.
When is Hornady coming out with the 6.5 Grendel ELD-X???
I would be happy if they would start factory loading the Grendel SST again!
i’m waiting for it also!
@@ElderGuy729 i’d be happy with that also! ELD Match works but not as good as the SST’s
This dude is a treasure trove of knowledge. These points should be considered required knowledge for anyone planning to hunt big game (or talk about it on the internet).
One of the most informative and well presented videos I've seen on ballistics so far, what an interesting person, as someone who works as an engineer in another field this is fascinating, so many parallels drawn from my perspective.. I'd love to have heard more about how varmint bullets vary from the big game constructed bullets and how they work in detail as that's more my thing, especially the 17HMR which is a Hornady developed cartridge.. Maybe another time?
We can absolutely add that to our list for the future! Thanks for tuning in!
IMO an Excellent Podcast .. So many things were covered in terms of BallisticsPerformance and it was gr8 to get confirmation of what to use when and where and reconfirm uses for the different projectiles ..From this Podcast it helps to better identify Key facts that Hunters need to be aware of when chosing their desired Bullet. Projectile Placement is the precursor to Projectile Performance on Target. Velocity Determines Perforamnce up to the Maximum Distance that the Bullet is designed to Kiil at. ie Anything below that Number is where the projectile wont Mushroom/Open up and do it's Job properly in the Hunting arena. The more i read and watch these types of information sharing today as Hunters we need to realise we must as hunters and shooters understand how and what the projectile Will do--- out to your max hunting range whatever that maybe..it doesnt matter if it 100y or 500y Still each one has optimal range it will perform at some(Projectiles) more thans others. Their are a myriad of options today and it on us to get it right Thanks again i feel better informaed to make good call on my Ammo
You guys have become one of the most underrated channels. You are going to explode once people catch on. Keep bringing this top tier information. Great stuff
Excellent Podcast. Loved every second. Thanks Hornady and Jayden for the great knowledge and information. I would love to see Jayden return. Thanks Vortex, Mark and Ryan, another great show.
Thanks for tuning in! Glad you enjoyed it!
@@VortexNation all the way from Australia 🇦🇺
Just fantastic information. An absolute masters class.
I literally watched this five times, super informative podcast! So valuable, please set up another with him
Loved the way you started this podcast. How do animals die (in hunting scenarios)
Love Vortex podcasts, love Hornady podcasts. Match made in heaven.
A++
Hornady and Vortex, two or the leaders in firearms technology providing a erudite discussion of pushing the boundarys and limits of post-modern firearms techn as we know it.
More Please!
I think this is a video every hunter should watch. Thanks. One question: where can I find the design velocity range of specefic bullets published?
Bullet selection is the number one mistake hunters make. Then blame the caliber for poor performance
I've heard people complain about the .270 winchester in that way. I even heard a guy say that a .270 wouldn't kill a deer, but I've never seen a whitetail that didn't die quickly if not instantly after being hit with a good quality 130 grain .270 soft point.
Very VERY well said Bobby!!!
You're not the real Hank Hill.
@@jl123ist I’ve killed over 20 Texas whitetail with a Hornady 130 gr 270 win. Ranging anywhere from 50-315 yards. The damage I’ve seen has sometimes made me think the 270 is overkill for whitetail. I haven’t had a chance to test on mule deer or elk yet, but 270 Win is a helluva deer killer..
@@Huckleberry_Hunter I agree, it is a fantastic deer killer. I killed two 100lb does with one shot from a .270 win 130gr winchester soft point they were perfectly lined up with each other and both dropped instantly.
Great information, very informative!
Great video guys. Nice to hear you emphasizing choosing the right bullet for the job in hand.
Excellent video, do another down the rabbit holes you touched on.
My grandpa said “get as close as you can- sonny, then get 5 yards closer.”
I only hunt woods, so I'm not much of a practiced long-range shooter, but I can say that I love the Interlocks and V-Maxes in my rifles and the XTPs in my handguns. All of those have given me good accuracy and consistency in my handloads. The 140 .277" Interlock is the only one of those I've taken game with, and the buck trotted 15 yards on a double-lung shot before laying down to expire -- great performance.
Amazing, NO NOTES! This is all in his head! Wow
Best podcast you guys have ever done !
Wow! I have learned so much about the CX in this podcast--awesome information from Jayden and it's characteristics! Thank you for doing this!!! 😀
Thank you for tuning in!
Awesome video, super informative. The Hornady ballistician truly is a wealth of knowledge. The ELD bullets are amazing ballistically but I do wish hornady would at least acknowledge the large amounts of ELD-X exploding at closer range/high velocity...
Every bullet had a velocity range that their deisgned to function properly at. It's the shooters responsibility to use the bullet in that range.
Yeah, lots of people shooting the eldx are shooting big magnums at max velocity because “long rang hunting” is all the rage right now. The trouble is that physics is a thing, and a bullet that is capable of expanding 800meters down range is going to have trouble holding together when it hits an elk 75 yards away at Mach 3.
@@Cowboy.underwater And the thing is you don't even need a magnum for long range. A slower (2600-2900 fps), heavier, higher bc bullet will have enough range beyond most peoples shooting capabilities, and will work better up close and have less recoil. But unfortunately people think they need the biggest cartridge they can get, then theyre afraid to practice with it cause of cost or recoil, and they can't hit most things well enough to kill with it anyway
@@maccaspope2275
Preach
@@maccaspope2275It would help if the bullet makers would post the velocity ranges the bullet is designed for.
Best podcast so far!!!
The eldx come apart bad up close. Shot 3 deer wtail, at 30,55,75 yards. I did kill the deer every time but no exit wound at all just blew apart after 6inches. And it was a slow gasping kill. I wasn't impressed. Def need a bonded option . Cx don't shoot good outa my gun. I now use federal terminal accent. Those things are hammers. Best I've seen ever!
Like he said, it's a contradiction to work up close and far away. Tradeoffs.
Really great to hear from this guest speaker.
I think you should make this one a series if possible. I feel that internal balistics doesn't get talked about enough and should be a much bigger factor especially when choosing a rifle for hunting. After some unexpected bullet failure I am switching to premium bullets for deer as well as elk. Hornady is the only brand I have good availability for and what I have seen of the gilding metal monolithic bullets requires higher speeds for them to open well. Monolithic bullets are becoming a popular premium option but I think many don't think about the fact that if they had favored heavy bullets for penetration in the past they still probably want to step up lighter both do to the increased length but also needing that higher velocity at impact. Since they are going to penetrate better anyway higher speed will make for cleaner kills. For those who are realistic about their range many larger bores are actually going to make for the best option since do to the way internal balistics work they are going to give the highest velocity with the least amount of powder volume and shortest barrel length. Many magnums actually are loosing much of their advantage with short hunting length barrels anyway. The weight of the powder column along the jet affect of smaller bores is going to give them higher recoil to actual muzzle energy compared to the same energy produced by a larger bore and smaller case. What seems important is to keep the highest energy over the expected range and to pick a rifle that fits that in the weight and recoil a hunter finds best. This new long distance shooting trend has helped to make very light bullets be the popular thing but I think for many they struggle to see the whole picture and often pick a round based off of fewer factors than they should. It would be great to see more information get out there especially now when people are starting to realize that there is more to it than just how fast a bullet leaves the muzzle. With the right factory support something like the . 350 Rem mag using copper bullets in the lighter weights would have made this a fantastic elk rifle out to 300 yards but at the time it wasn't really ballanced enough with the factory ammo available.
I think it would be great to get this information more mainstream since the average hunter doesn't sort through white papers and look for expansion studies at specific ranges although TH-cam has gone a long way to improve this.
I primarily shoot factory Hornady and Barnes, I am not impressed entirety with the ELDX at closer ranges. But at medium to extended ranges the bullet has shined for me. For all ranges and game the Barnes TTSX has been the go to
I love Hornady 150grain spire points for my old 30-06.i loaded a ton of them back in the 1970s,with my dad.i still hunt with them.i have several ammo cans full .they are excellent for hunting deer and black bear .I trust Hornady bullets.
I know you are talking to Hornady, and I use the 308 Interlock bullets, never had a deer walk away form it, but the Nosler Partition and Accubond are great killers, close or far.
Incredibly interesting. Thank you!
Great discussion...do you have a good reference guide that gives minimum velocity and still achieve proper expansion for Hornady bullets? I am interested in the SSTs and the ELD-X for deer in 30 cal guns.
Minimum expansion velocity with the SST is 1800 fps. The ELD-X is 1600 fps.
What is the minimum fps for expansion in cx bullets in a 308?
@@Aerosith In the following video they stated that the minimum expansion velocity for the CX bullet is 2000 fps.
th-cam.com/video/7DdNXtfWeWw/w-d-xo.html
The GMX (now CX) is my deer hunting bullet of choice. Accurate across calibers and no lead bits in the meat. That said, 2000fps at impact does little more than dislodge the plastic tip. My tests (not scientific enough for most) suggest these bullets need closer to 2300 fps at impact to expand SUFFICIENTLY. There's a difference in "expansion" and proper expansion. Great bullets but not long range bullets due to higher impact velocity requirements. Check the expansion tests at various distances on the Frontline Rejects TH-cam channel.
@@hornadyWhats the maximum velocity to prevent early breaking apart on the ELDX?
Great Video
Interesting content, good advice on selecting bullet type depending on applications.
Here as much as I test and research different bullets, calibers, etc.... the locations we hunt the good old fashioned plain base hard cast 405g bullet has worked for decades on my end, and a century plus some on the large scale. We see some gravitate back to these basic old designs in those that have the same application, but good to see advances in other applications that we as humans 100 years ago never really did on a regular basis.
Love it. More deep dive vids like this!
Great discussion…. Now I’m more aware of how little I know.., thanks for that!
Nice episode! I wish they would have touched on the ammo case design and the newer brass/steel base case, the steel base and stainless cases etc. that the military has now adopted. Explaining the huge advantage in higher case pressures and reloadablity. The bullet always gets all the glory tho :)
Have you ever noticed how different bones break in unique ways. Thats why I never shoot on the shoulder or the front leg. All those leg bones break like porcelain, pieces shooting all through the good meat. Whereas ribs kind of break like wood or branches, it kind of just splinters and cracks out of the way of the bullet. Theres also less meat around the ribs to waste.
One of your best.
I’ve used hornady bullets on coyotes, wood bison, grizzly bear, black bear ,caribou and Yukon moose. I’ve always had great results with hornady bullets.
I had to watch this episode like 3 times there's so much information to distill from the brains of this man.
Great guest
Learned a lot! Thanks !!
Just recently rewatched this and another question I would have asked on the end would have been something to do with metallurgy. Great episode and all the respect. I think the metallurgy of modern (and legacy) projectiles could be an entire episode on its own.
Interesting point about the accuracy of bonded bullets. I'd never heard that and thought the piss poor accuracy I got with bonded bullets in my .243 was just a quirk of my individual rifle.
I shoot Nosler ABLR’s in all my guns ( I reload) and they’re all all sub-moa. 30-06, 270, 6.5 prc, 7mm Rem Mag. Very accurate bullet.
Last year, predeer season, I reloaded some Hornady 140gr Monoflex Bullets. They were in a .308 Win at about 2650 fps MV. The first hunt out my grandson shot a nice 3x3 whitetail buck. The shot was taken at about 90yds and hit the deer high on the shoulder. The deer dropped on the spot. After that, every one switched guns so they could use that .308 for the continuing deer hunt. Over the one month Alberta season the results were 6 Bullets for 5 Bucks. One bullet was a complete miss. The range varied from 90yds to 130 yds. Two of the bullets were recovered with a retained weight of +90% . I highly recommend this bullet caliber combination. Thank you Hornady!
130 yards? Every bullet is going to work well that close in.
What a great podcast!
The old spire point 129 in 264 win mag and 139 in 7mm Rem mag,I have seen lots of white tail and mule deer taken cross canyon shooting at 400 to 600 yards back in the 70s and 80s. Bullets recovered were usually on the off side hide perfectly expanded. On the other hand I have shot deer at close range and had three exit holes nasty destruction inside!
Sub-X would have been nice to hear about. Is there a way you guys can hit that one up?
Great conversation guys
Thanks for tuning in!
Liked it need more on game/ yardage/ bullet selection and caliber
My son just took his first whitetail with a 6.5 120CX loaded to about 2950fps 220 yards. This combination is lightning on deer. The damage was contianed completely in the chest cavity without excessive "collateral damage".
A controlled expansion, consistent bullet, that passes through and through is the most important for me. I need full pass through for a solid blood trail. I need it to perform consistently at 40 yards or 400 yards. The Interlock BTSP, or similar (Nosler Partition) provide that. I hunt whitetail and hogs in deep south Texas brush country, where it's vitally important to anchor the animal where it stands, but if it runs, leaves a well defined blood trail into the almost impenetrable thorn brush. I tried SST's and in every case they failed to thoroughly penetrate the animals and in each case they animal some substantial distance. This resulted in my only lost animal in 50 years of hunting. I've recently purchased Precision Hunter ELD-X's, but have yet to see the terminal performance on an animal in the field. My opinion is that BC is a moot point at reasonable hunting ranges inside 1/4 mile (440 yards).
Mike Chance right on! My thoughts exactly! Check out the new Federal Terminal Ascent bullet. Hands down better terminal performance design than any of Hornady's currently offered cup and core bullets. Pushing high BC numbers is a marketing scheme to sell bullets to people who dont understand good terminal performance on game.
I’ve had jacket core separation every time with the eldx and have even lost an animal with it. I see these guys really push the eldx like they been hired or something…
Fantastic!
Great video. Wondering what supersonic 300blk bullet would be needed for whitetail? I have used 135gr vmax out of a 10.3 inch with good effect on two deer, but shots are maximum of 75 yards. Now worried that I shouldn't be using it. 😕
I hope the next evolution in bullet design has to be something to replace a lead core in a bullet. I know that monolithic bullets have become pretty good specially in very high velocity loads, but in many calibers, they can't replace the old cup and core bullet. They are just too long for the weight. If they could design a new material for bullet cores that would be the same hardness (or softness) as lead but without the toxicity in could become a game changer for many hunters. To me that would be a big game changer. It would have the same effective maximum range for many existing cartridges and would be applicable to many more calibers.
Hey Hornady. Modern high b.c. bullets are fine and all but please offer more of those legacy bullets again. I use your 30 cal 220gr roundnose bullet. Those are really good even to 300yd. Excellent. Also we need more 338 cal 250gr and please make bullets for the 348win available.
Aaron Wilcox Exactly. Hornady needs to offer a Nosler Partition/Swift A-frame style cup and core type bullet that keeps some weight retention on short to medium range bone/heavy tissue type shots, with an advancement in bullet profile design. The new Federal Terminal Ascent bullet has done exactly this. Which is why you cant find them on a shelf anywhere. The ELD-x has proven to completely shed its core with violent expansion and little to no penetration on these types of shots. Terminal bullet performance matters more than anything else on hunting bullet design, including ballistic coeffecient. ELD-x bullets are target bullets on steroids. Nothing more.
22mag is a great round for small stuff. Dam near dead flat from muzzle to 100yards. My fav bird n squirrel gun as a kid
What differentiates a bullet 'pencilling' through an elk from the complete ditching of expansion to get necessary penetration on the big African game?
If you can get "full" terminal performance on the large game with little-to-no expansion or turbulent deposition of energy, why then do we demonize the same situation used on a smaller animal (not that elk are necessarily small)? On a deer or an elk, we call it pencilling a needle hole and list it as a failure, but on a big animal that is the entire desire?
My best guess is, on the larger animals, we are taking them at such a close range that shot placement hindrances like drop and drift are less of an issue so proper placement through the gold sack is easier, therefore we have less need for additional assistance from energy deposition in a situation we otherwise would need, such as a longer shot on elk or deer where we just miss the vitals, but can generate some temporary cavity damage from the sheer velocity versus the elastic threshold of tissue. The large dangerous game example is a close-range back-to-basics form of killing much like an arrow versus the leeway we try to take with expansion at distance to increase range and ditch a bit of recoil because we no longer need as much penetration since our cartridge's penetration already overclocks the required vital depth of the animal, yes?
Good one
What is the lowest velocity of the CX since i hear speed is what makes the monolithic bullets to open? What is also the lowest velocity for max expansion?
Awesome discussion!
Loads of great information here. One point I disagree with was the concept that a hollow point will work like an ice pick going right through. I've actually shot a mule deer with a hornady hollow point because I ran into a situation where I brought the wrong ammo box by accident. So I took what I had and made the shot. The hole going in was the size of the diameter of a pencil. The exit hole was the size of one and a half of my hands fully open with all fingers completely expanded, and it was not clean. In between the entrance and exit holes, all tissue was shredded in an expansive manner the further the bullet went through. It was very evident that as the copper of the bullet tore and curled back it was both compressing tissue and cutting it to pieces. I really questioned if it was also tumbling through compressing & cutting as it went. It didn't simply tear through slightly bigger than the bullet in a similar manner to the shape of an icecicle (long & narrow). As soon as halfway through, there was little left of entire organs. The heart, which was only partly in the path, was completely fragmented. As we're most of the vitals. While there was obviously little energy transfer (punch) impact transfered to the animal, most vital organs were obliterated. There were jagged slice tear marks all over the place on all vital organs. Maybe the bullet broke up and became shrapnel, sending pieces everywhere to slice everything up and still all exit creating the large hole. Though we ran into no fragments in processing or eating the meat. Looking from the exit side, it looked like a shotgun blast hole. It was far from a long, narrow icepick wound.
Just heard that BTHP bullets don't expand; is that also true for shorter ranges & higher velocities, say 100 yards or less? If so, seems like terminal performance would be about the same as FMJ? I'm using 6.5 Grendel, 123 gr. Thx.
I'm confused. According to the ammo library in the Hornady app the 165 gr .308 GMX has a BC of .447. Same caliber and weight CX has a BC of .440. What am I missing?
If you look at the drawings on their site you'll notice the longer but narrower hollow cavity in the GMX tipped by a smaller plastic tip. The copper alloy around that cavity is thicker and will tend to open slower. The CX bullet has a shorter but wider cavity meaning the copper alloy around the cavity is thinner and will tend to open more quickly. The CX should deform more at slower velocity impacts (or longer ranges.) As for the difference in BC, it may very well come down to bullet shape. They are still limited by bullet length allowed for their various loads so they probably changed the shape slightly so it would still fit in the cartridges they load (cartridge base to ogive length) and lost a little in BC. Small differences in BC are negligible in hunting. They only become important at very long distances. From a hunting perspective, bigger differences in BC become important at long ranges where you want the bullet to still have an impact velocity sufficient to allow bullet deformation and give you less bullet drift.
I will second that the bullet shape is different. At same muzzle velocity the trajectories are different, confirming the different BCs. If you are not using a 4DOF or similar calculator,, at Hornady /support/ballistic-coefficient is concept worth knowing.
I was surprised it didn't have a higher BC because Ryan starts a conversation about how good the BC is at about 1:12:20. Made it sound like it was higher than the GMX... but it's not. Lower expansion velocity would be great too.
@@justinbriggs1514 I checked on their site and you're right. Almost across the board the CX has lower BC than GMX. This would mean lower striking velocities at longer ranges that probably means the CX will mushroom more quickly than the GMX or has a lower minimum velocity. They probably did this so it would work better on medium power loads.
8mm mauser train still chuggin
to add to his quote near the end "the technology advancements mean we constantly have to reevaluate what's possible"
I'm curious to see if direct metal laser sintering (metal 3d printing) can be used in bullet design similarly to how it's used in suppressors and similar things where you can get internal geometries that were previously impossible with normal manufacturing processes and techniques.
I think it's still going to be a long time before it's viable on a large scale, but imagine if you could have a CX bullet strategically "weakened" internally in a manner that would allow it to still hold together at higher velocities, but be capable of significant and reliable expansion at lower velocities.
I’m a Midwest straight wall hunter. I’m shooting .350 legend 180 grain power point. I’ve read conflicting opinions if this should be a 150 max vs 200 max round. Academic as most shots are sub 100 yards. Love the accuracy of these rounds
I am a year late watching this, so interesting I extended the view time by nearly an hour. Great topic. I wonder if Jayden is able to hunt without all those facts getting i n the way when trigger time comes?
Love the CX
How do you find out the low velocity window where you beging to not get expansion? Is it the lowest velocity on the box?
Thank you 😊
Tools and Targets just tested some 45-70 Leverevolution in a Derringer. In clear ballistics gell, IT STILL EXPANDED
I watched this a while ago and found more value watching it again. I have been watching with interest the data and performance of 7 mm PRC and have decided to get one. Both as a general hunting rifle and longer distances, if I so choose. So, I could hunt with the Hunter round and later get into LD shooting with the Match round. Primarily that means just switching ammo, put on a 20 MOA rail, zero at 200 and then go for it. although I could put on a 20 to start, zero at 200 and any shot less than that will be in the MPBR and I could dial past that. Either way, I think it is going to be good.
Aside from the itch for a precision rifle, and from what I have seen of the SAAMI specs, any rifle build for this has to be precise because of the miniscule free bore, there are drawn hunts in the western part of my state for mule deer and the state says you should be able to make a shot at least 200 yards. I could be ready for that. And maybe, sometime in my life, now that I am getting old, going on at least one elk hunt would be cool. And why the long shots?
I have not seen anyone be able to harvest a mule deer or an elk by putting salt on its tail. And on the high plains and desert in the western part of my state, there are not a lot of trees to hide behind. You have to stalk from downwind, set your spot, wait for the right profile, and go.
I am reminded of what Ron Spomer said about energy. It used to be that you worried about getting all of the energy into an animal. But there are cases of entry and exit wounds and the animal expired, even though the bullet did not leave all the energy in the animal. And I have read a story of a hunter that shot a deer and it got away. The next season, he shot at another deer and got it. When he examined it, it was the same deer that survived being shot before.
How many deer and elk are killed from archery? Plenty. While you have a 200 grain head, the velocity is slower. The damage ocurred which caused the death. That being said, the archery head enters because it is razor sharp. The bullet enters because it is going really fast.
I have several .308 W rifles and I have been hunting with one. Cheap and easy to operate, I don't even load for it. I just by factory ammo. At 225 yards and less, the variances that may cause 1 MOA drift are still within the danger zone. But there is a balance between twist rate and speed. I watched the Hornady Podcast #057 about one hole and the reasons for bullet dispersion. Excellent information.
Now, I am going to get the 7 mm PRC and I think that is going to get any game animal that I want in North America. I have seen people such as Ron Spomer and others get elk with a 7 mm Rem Mag. I have seen a guy get a moose with 6.5 Creedmoor (Hornady ELD-X 143 gr) out of his Howa 1500 and Burris Eliminator III at quite a distance, with one shot. At first, the moose kept walking like nothing happened and so Rob Arrington waited. Finally he dropped. Sometimes a moose does not realize it has been shot.
The odd bullet out in terms of velocity required would be Barnes "Varmint Grenade". This copper-tin powder filled; super thin jacket will literally detonate even at sub-sonic velocities.
I haven't had that experience. I have a couple recovered bullets at 1900fps shot into pigs with frontal brain shot. The side of the cavity started rupturing and that was it.
I might have missed this and I apologize if I did but I have a question about the outfitter line from Hornady…. What powder do they use? Specifically in the 6.5creed but I’d be interested in other calibers as well. I can’t find that info anywhere online. (Don’t have the updated loading manual so if someone can answer this for me I’m all ears) TIA
For anyone out there that has this same question…..I called Hornady and asked and their answer was, “It depends on the lot, but most of the time they use H4350. Good to know!
An excellent question! Typically, the ammunition manufacturer will use an undisclosed powder in the production line of a very large lot - it is not atypical to find that they'll keep information close to the vest. It would be worth a shot to reach out to Hornady, as they may be willing to relinquish this! - Ryan M
That upside down rifle sling got me
The flat base bullets are really accurate with the 6mm ppc bench guns
keep gravitating back to the SST's I can't beat them.
Are you saying over the eldx?
When will the SST bullets get the heat shield tip?!
I hear if you just get a Nosler Accubond or Accubond LR all your issues just go away… and its fact checked true
I must be behind the times on hunting bullets. A 154 grain interlock from my 7x57 Mauser (loaded to the capacity of the Remington 700 I fire it from) Has killed every deer I've shot it at from 0-400 yards.