#10MinuteTalk
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 12 ต.ค. 2020
- One of those very important variables in shooting performance and accuracy that so many of us take for granted or never think to check - the twist rate of the barrel in our rifle. What is the twist rate, why is it so important to consider, how do different twist rates affect our projectiles and how can you figure out which twist rate is best for your application? Ryan Muckenhirn joins Jimmy and Mark to drop some knowledge on the subject!
As always, we want to hear your feedback! Let us know if there are any topics you'd like covered on the Vortex Nation podcast by asking us on any one of our social media platforms and using #VortexNationPodcast.
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I actually enjoy the fact that the discussion goes over 10 minutes. I am learning so much from you guys. Keep up the good work!
I agree
Late to the party, but I love these 20 / 10 minute talks. Very informative for my old brain.
That was great. Just change it to “20 minutes talks” already 😂
Amen! Although I did watch one last week that was under 11 minutes 😜
Just have all the 10s of minutes of talks. I think we all agree that 20,30,40, even a hour of good information is great to have.
I almost feel ripped off if it's only 10min.
These videos are recorded in “wife getting ready” time.
I just love the quick talks, perfect way to test the water to do an in depth talk.
The barrel twist vs barrel length issue is mainly related to muzzle velocity. The twist rate formulas ask for muzzle velocity bullet weight and shape. This is because what matters for stability is the revolutions-per-minute. To get this, you need the correct combination of twist rate and velocity as the bullet reaches the end of the barrel. A lower velocity needs a higher twist rate to get the proper RPM's. With a 223 Rem, for example, the speed of a bullet at the end of an 8" barrel will be lower than the speed of the bullet at the end of a 20" barrel. To get the same RPM's the twist rate of the short barrel will need to be faster than the long one.
Thanx that was sum good info
Over 20 minutes no problem, great discussion! I Learned a lot ! Thank you gentlemen 👍
Tighter twist rates also increase surface speed, heat from friction, heat from pressure, barrel wear from increased friction on hotter metals, copper fouling, bullet jacket damage etc.
That’s what I came to say. When people say they want fastest twist rate that’s “reasonable” they need to remember they are exponentially wrecking their barrel.
Bingo. People think they know more than the engineers who designed it, certain twist rates, bullet weights have their sweet spots .
The football spiral analogy is what I used to explain rifling to my son. Gyroscopic stabilization is such a cool example of genius meets physics.
I almost spit out my coffee when Ryan started yelling like the bullet going down the barrel 🤣 great talk fellas!
I needed to hear this discussion. This gives me something to think about when I am reloading for my rifles. I will be paying attention to what my twist rates are so I can avoid trying to load something that my rifle will not like. This will save me time AND money. GOOD TALK!
Progressive twist rate? Ok, mind blown! I had never heard of such a thing
20min is the new 10min
Love the videos
Great talk guys. I can listen to you guys for hours as I am working!
My 300 WM with a 1:10 loves the 195 grain ELDM but my groups really opened up with 200 grain ELDX. 180’s tend to work pretty well too
Keep at it guys! Ten minutes or more, no problem. Love this type of conversation.
Just ran across this channel...could have been an hour. Learned a lot, just enough that I need to learn much more.
I’m a beginner in firearms this was some great information!
Love it when you guys go over! Go back to all the ten minute talks and do full podcast!
That last question regarding twist rates and pressure was worth the time. As usual, great discussion. This old dog is learning some new tricks.
Really good talk! Nice to have things clarified.
I sure appreciate your knowledge it helps understand things :) I’m a self taught hunter out here in beautiful BC thanks so very much
Hornady just came out with a twist rate video not to long ago that that expands on the formula that Ryan mentioned and also talks about a more accurate formula. It's a really good video kinda technical talk but its it's definitely worth watching
I would love to sit around a campfire after a good day hunting just talking to Ryan about any given subject.
This was good, i never heard enough about twist rates, people dont seem to talk about it that much but i learned alot here. awesome video.
Absolutely fantastic, clear, concise and perfectly understandable explanation.
🙂👍🇨🇦
I love this channel. As long as you talk I'll listen.
Thanks for doing this one guys, it’s good to understand this better and fun to hear Ryan’s stories. It would be great to hear more about progressive twist barrels on future podcasts. Thanks again
Thank you. Very informative.
Finally i found something besides forgotten weapons, honest outlaw, paul harrel thats worth watching. Old kentucky ballistics are cool cgexk those out.
Progressive twist. That does sound like magic.
Good talk guys, I have an older 243 that shoots 100gr hunting bullets great. I have recently started coyote hunting and experimenting with lighter bullets. I have been trying to learn about it but everyone seems to go to heavier long range but I’m trying the other direction. Either way this is great info. Just another reason my 1:9.25twist 700 is very versatile.
This was gold! 🙏🏼
Yes. Increased twist rate if it is aggressive it could potentially cause overpressure. So if you were shooting a heavier bullet at an aggressive twist rate, you're going to want to reload with the slower burn rate powder. And this is especially true if you are running a long barrel.
Great show guys , Whats the best twist rate for a 308 ?
This video shows why jim and ryan arw gold together. Jim asks the right questions in simple ways. Ryan drops the nerd knowledge in a way casuals can understand and nerds can appreciate
This video answered a lot of questions for me but raised as many as well
Let us know if there is anything we can help with!
Learnage! Love this show
I'm not a professional by any stretch of the imagination but I have done quite a bit of shooting, and what I have found is with 55 grain bullets a 1/7 or 1/8 are perfect at 100 yards, for 5.56. My Grendel has a 1/7 twist rate heavy stainless barrel and it holds a .5" groups at 100 yards with wolf fmj ammo out of a 16" barrel. Both of my 5.56 barrels are also 16".
I love 1/7 in 18" or 16". Always have superb accuracy from 50gr-77gr
I've shot my 7 TCU Contender with 14 inch barrel to 500 yards with a Hornady 154 gr. SST going 1900 fps. Hit 6 of 10 rams with enough energy to knock the 50 lb. rams over. Barrel length only relates to the velocity part of the stabilization part of the formula. Use the Berger stability calculator to determine twist rate needed for stabilization.
Love the info!🤙
I've noticed that since I was a youth hunter and the fact that the AR platform has become so popular, the 223 deer hunting rifles of my youth have seemed to become less available. I started with a 243 but I knew quite a few of my friends that were using 223 rifles when we were 12 or so. Seems like now that cartridge is viewed as a varmint cartridge and is way less popular for deer. Conversation aside, as to whether or not someone should use that small of a cartridge for deer, it has been done for decades, but now seems harder to find a deer hunting twist rate for a 223 bolt gun.
Great show.
That was very interesting Ryan brilliant pod cast ...
Thank you!
I can add a little bit of info to bullets coming apart from what ive seen with 223's. I have experience with bullet failures in f class with the 223. Shooting the 90 vld's after about 600 rounds on a barrel is when the issue starts usually. It appears that fire cracking in the throat is one of the main contributors. Keeping carbon out of the barrel seems to prolong bullet life. So, maybe it is more of a carbon building up in the fire cracking than it is the fire cracking itself. Barrel temperature seems to exasperate the issue also. In the cooler spring and fall temperatures it is has been less of a problem making it through a 60 round match.
I would guess twist rate did play a part in bullets coming apart in ryan muckenhirn's situation, along with "damage" to the bullet from fire cracking in the throat area and barrel heat. I believe that a bullet being spun so fast is the final straw. Looking at bullet rpm's you can really see the difference.
Outstanding
@Vortex Nation Podcast will you guys please revisit this Podcast Subject. It's 2 years old now and there has to be new data on barrel twist rates involving BARREL LENGTH. PLEASE GUYS I'M A BIG FAN AND A DISABLED VETERAN. Appreciate ya!
Great job
Great video
LOVE the ten minute talks ...so much info... my 2 cents ...I'm working on this myself ...your at a rifle competition call it a rifle not a weapon Though I hate correct speech I feel it really helps the cause and is actually most of the time a more accurate description. Same with pistol or handgun
10 minute talk idea the underrated 35 Whelen the poor man's Magnum
mine has a 1 in 14 twist.
This is great information. I live in Comi CA and pistols are not allowed so I’m considering a 13.7 pin and weld pistol length gas system AR with a 1/7 twist and a nox keymo flash hider. I’m primarily going to run supers and occasionally some subs and using for home defense and at the range and some hunting. Will the 1/7 twist run reliably for both SuperSonic and subs? And for what I’m doing is the 1/7 the best choice for my situation? The manufacturer suggested a 1/6 twist but I was skeptical on that and I don’t want over stabilization.
Rifling type is a big contributor to bullets exploding. You can take two barrels same twist with two different riflings and over spin the bullet. Possibly get two different results. Like some rifling deform the bullets less. So it doesn’t deform the thin jacket so it holds together better.
As more copper solids are used ...or required... this will be more of an issue, especially in older hunting rifles and cartridges. To maintain the mass, copper solids get longer and longer.
Thank you for not limiting the episode.
I have an older mini 14 with a 1:7 twist. Ruger now makes barrels with a 1:9 twist. I suspect they did this to reduce the dispersion when shooting a 55 grain bullet. I’ve been thinking about what I need to shoot if I want to reduce dispersion by hopefully achieving the same rate of bullet spin. If I assume a 55 grain bullet has a muzzle velocity of 3250 ft/sec., 3250/9x7 would give me a desired muzzle velocity of 2528 ft/sec. A 77 grain bullet has a published muzzle velocity of around 2800 ft/sec. I think I’m going to see how 77 grain ammunition works. Since the bullet is a little longer, my 2528 ft/sec should be a little too slow.
Change the video series to 20 minute talk. 10 minutes isn't long enough for all the great info.
Heck yeah I learned something
Machine has come a long way, which makes things better
Great, to the point, with no intros and crap
Could you guys bring out the .17 Remington?
I have one and it's by my means, the best warmint caliber ever. The barrel life is short, but the speed..
Never been around anything that kan mach these velosities.
Would like to see u guy discuss pistol cartridges in rifles.
Thinking about a new barrel for my .270 WSM and wondering about going from its original 1:10 to 1:9. Would there be any downside? I would think it would stabilize a longer bullet, but would it be worse for my more standard rounds?
Great Stuff ' 💥💥💥💥💥💥💥
Dealing with that problem in my 1941 mod 70 with a J.E Gibby 22 varminter barrel 1 in 14 twist. 40gr nosler's all touch and 62gr tsx's are .252" groups.
I got a 40 year old custom built 22-250 from my grandfather and I think I picked up some 50-55gr bullets by accident and when I was checking to see if point of impact changed it took over a box of ammo just to hit a 4×8ft sheet of plywood 1 time.... That's when I started to learn about twist rates because before that all I knew is it was numbers stamped on a barrel...
Lovely
A M4 Carbine standard ammo is 62 grain M855 ball ammo. The twist rate of the M4 is 1-in-7. Standard barrel length of the M4 is 14.5 inches.
Thank you for the video. I found it educational. But what I have been told by barrel manufacturers is it's not an issue of weight, it's an issue of length that decides the twist rate you want. And just because a bullet is longer doesn't mean it's heavier. I have shorter spitzer bullets that weight 40 grains more then my berger vlds. But longer bullets require more twist per distance it travels.
Hi! I shoot 100/105 grains 243 with my 24 inches 1/10 twist X-Bolt and it stabilise perfectly...
🖖🏻🇫🇷😎🇫🇷😎🇫🇷🖖🏻
Progressive twist are used more in the Air Riffle domain it seems. 🙏🏻
Holly crapbi didn't know about this video!! Whatching ya ll for a year now. I planning in the comments about NOT having this TALK.... it was hear the whole time!!
Agitating for me to explain it to people so now I can just send them this link!!
Progressive Rifling Twist was tried in Italian Military Rifles circa WW2 era, and apparently wasn't very successful. Thinking about it, it would likely apply unwelcome extra stresses on a bullet when it's already in a pretty stressed state? Modern materials though, may provide opportunities for it to be beneficial?
Would a 1/6 or a 1/7 be an optimal twist rate for a 300 blackout 13.7 barrel and be able to run subs and supers?
Great discussion. If reloading, by decreasing the velocity compensate for stabilization?
not always. entirely depends on the bullet you use, the powder and primer you use and the barrel you intend to launch them out of. when you hand load, you (rule of thumb) do 10 cartridges, at each .03 grain incremental powder charge. at some point, if you dont see pressure signs first, you will see groups open up from going too fast. its theoretical mostly, but some of that is the bullet being pushed too fast and some of it is the barrel harmonics. in slow motion you can actually see the barrel vibrate and "whip" around as the bullet gets launched. its microscopic in movent with a thicker barrel, but very noticeable in a thinner barrel. so, short answer yes, long answer, depends.
also try, " johnys reloading bench" channel. he explains alot of things in a very friendly easy to understand way.
Hello Guys, thank you very much for your podcast,. What bullet weights would be good for 1/11 twist rate for a .30-06 tikka t3x?
Did you find out ?
Looking at twist rate I found something that Hornady needs to add to its specs on bullets. The length of the bullet. since caliber, weight and length of bullet are all of the things needed to define the proper twist rate that data should be published.
Lighter bullet materials require a longer bullet, all other things being equal. That’s why Sierra told me a .308 with 1:12 twist was fine up to 190 grains but Barnes (all copper) said 162 grains was their upper limit.
Also note that the 8.6 Blackout is spun 1:3. Yikes!
Such great interesting information. Please consider changing the format to 20 minutes.
So would you say that the faster the twist rate, the slower the muzzle velocity? Say you shot a 180gr 300 wm out of a 1:10, you should get muzzle velocity right around 2900-3000 fps. If you dropped the twist rate to a 1:9, would your muzzle velocity also drop to let's say 2750-2850 fps because the energy has transferred from forward propulsion to rotational force?
What happened to gain twist ? Seemed like a good idea . A friend said his first shot from a Weatherby 338-378 wb looked like shotgun , musta been sharp rifling only first shot.
I think it comes down to what the rifle likes.
I have a 1:7, a 1:8 and a 1:9 barrels for my .A/R. The 1:7 is pretty good for 69-77 gr bullets. The 1:8 I use for 65-77 gr. It’s a tack driver with 65 gr. Also really good with 69 gr. Opens up some with 77 gr.. I use the 1:9 for varmit loads from 40-55 gr.
Haven’t found one that is good with 62 gr. My rifle just does not like 62 gr pills. I just stay with my 1:8 now. Got to be to big of a hassle to change out barrels.
260 Remington is a wonderful cartridge, 125gr Nosler Partition.
Great topic go over the ten good with me.
First Gen rem 700 sps black synthetic stock 308 win, what is the twist rate 1in10 or 1in12? Can't seem to find the info and not stamped on gun
You can figure it out.
It took me so long to work out why my 55grain soft points in my .243 wouldn’t hit anything from about 50m onwards.. at 20m I was only getting a couple hits.. turns out the 1:7 twist was tearing the jacket off.. 😅
I do have question on twist rate I I got 6.5 creedmore savage110. 24inch barrel 1.8 twist rate can't get accurate with honady bullets wifes 6.5 creedmore howa 24 inch 1.8 twist can shoot excellent with hornady .. is twist rate same depth and width on all 6.5 or is it different
I’m looking at getting a tikka 300wsm but it has a 1-11 twist and I want to shoot the TA 200 grain. What are your thoughts?
The 460 Smith & Wesson Magnum revolver has a progressive twist rate in it
Remington spins them slower than other manufacturers. But it doesn't prevent 1/2 moa groups.
I would think the rate the bullet was actually spinning would depend on only twist rate and muzzle velocity. Because longer barrels typically increase muzzle velocity, barrel length would affect bullet spin speed.
So I’ve purchased some 195gr 30 cal long range bullets to reload for my stainless Ruger .30-06. The gun was built about 1994 so I’m assuming about a 1:10 twist rate. I’ve reloaded many 150 (special) ,165, 180, and 210 (special) grain bullets for this gun and a 1970 Remington .30-06. I’m also assuming the Rem has a 1;10 twist. I have sweet formulas for those loads yet this bullet is so long I feel I’ll either be seating the bullet to shallow thus running to far forward (to deep) in the action or l’ll seat it so I end up compressing the actual powder. The 210gr is used in heavy brush during close range elk/moose/bear ”tracking shots” (lighter powder charge) whereas this 195 grain LR bullet will be for the opposite type shots. At this point it’s intended to be a .30 cal experiment. Building and dialing in the load will be interesting yet I wonder; based on your twist rate talk, am I asking for a nightmare of tumbling or inverted bullets? Will that bullet seating be a really critical element to this experiment? What other factors may become critical that I may need to consider? I’ve had exceptional accuracy and knockdown power out to 400 yards with a Barnes 180gr lead soft point. This has led me in the direction of looking at LR bullets and capabilities. I don’t favor long shots over spot and stalk. When I have opportunities I favor the knock down (usually less than 200 yards on elk -as little as 18 once- and 275 yards on deer). As I age all and new opportunities need consideration.
I got a 9mm 4.5 inch barrel but 1 in 16 twist..... Is that OK or un affective ? Does anyone know? I been shooting 115gr 9mm out to 30-40 yards and perfect bullet holes it seems. Would I be more accurate with a 1/10 twist barrel?
So given that very light bullets flying apart when overtwisted is actually uncommon, would it be more common for these bullets (which already probably have pretty poor BC) to just deform a little bit totally messing up their ballistics?
That's a very good question I'd like to hear an answer to.
Quick answer.....yes. So looking at something like a 204 ruger or 22-250 with light jacketed light weight bullet with the BC of a ping-pong ball, one little imperfection on the bullet "can" effect group size. Spinning a bullet apart these days isn't as uncommon as you might think. Load a 40-50gr varmint bullet in a 224 valkyrie with a 1:6.5tw barrel and watch lol. Also I've seen where a bullet will stabilize in Denver but not in Houston......elevation has some play on things also.
Can barrel twist rates be overcome by velocity? I've got a 308 and a 300 win mag the 300 win mag has the powder to push a 200 grain bullet around the same velocity as the 308 can push let's say 175 grain bullet since it's leaving the barrel faster does that compensate for a slower twist in the barrel. My 300 win mag is a one in 10
Partially yes, more velocity increases rpm's.
Please do the gain twist barrel episode.
They must use my fiancées sense of time. But in this scenario its good to go over love these guys
You can see the bullet explode if you use a 110 grain plinker bullet in a 30-06 and load it to the max. for an 06. The light weight of the bullet allows much more powder so velocity can be very high thus high rpm the bullet was not built for. It puffs into a greyish burst shortly out of the barrel. I don't know if it is bad for the firearm though.
The 8.6 blk is a 1:3 twist. But also requires bonded bullets
Surprising lack of mention of the effect that over spinning bullets (so they're rotating too fast ) has on the gyroscopic effect shifting them off trajectories. Plus of course the extreme heating effect on bullets flying at supersonic speeds can have them Vaporising in flight, such that Varmint bullets often come with warnings not to load them to exceed say 3,500 ft per second muzzle velocity, which is something you also have to factor in with bullet rpm if it over stabilises the bullet, so you get extreme heat for the bullet build combined with centrifugal forces attempting to tear tthe bullet apart. Phew. 👍🏴
It’s called gain twist rifling the Italians used it in the Carcano rifles
Gain twist barrels were tried off and on years before Carcano went for it, including post-Civil War target rifles, and even some muzzleloading rifles. Generally, the theoretical benefits didn't translate to real-world benefits.
Can't believe you make this poor guy use up his 10 minute breaks for this stuff lol. Good info