C Major Scale with Forearm Rotation, Avoiding Crossing the Thumb Under the Hand
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 17 ม.ค. 2022
- I demonstrate playing a C Major scale using forearm rotation for thumb crossings instead of the "train in the tunnel" crossing movement that many of us learned as beginning piano students.
The idea comes from these principles:
Prefer small tension in big muscles (e.g., your arm) over big tension in small muscles (e.g., your hand).
Prefer muscle tension that gravity demands to maintain hand structure in a relaxed position over tension that works against your own anatomy. Any position where your muscles are working against your anatomy instead of against gravity is a potential source of injury and is to be avoided. - เพลง
I like the notion of crossing over as opposed to crossing under. That actually helped me physically by just using different language for this action.
I’ve read descriptions of this technique but was unable to fully understand what was being suggested. This brief description cleared the fog. This is excellent. Thank you.
thats a good scale technique- blazing fast. i geek on ergonomics for piano- chords, scale, phrasing, and dynamics. efficiency right here!
I've never liked doing the thumb tuck as I find it awkward. And I agree that it causes tension in the hand. I find your video very helpful, thank you.
I saw someone doing that fingering technique and I just couldn’t figure it out. Thank you for this!!
Great tip! I noticed it sped up my playing right away. Thank you for sharing.
Was just practicing the c scale yesterday the wrong way then. I'm glad you posted this, and I saw it.
That's the problem with lurning on your own. Nobody there to smack you with a stick when you're doing it wrong.
First lesson when I finally went to my teacher. Rotation in scales. It’s never left me years later. Also never get pain or strain in the hands playing for long practices. Relaxed technique is everything. I’m 72 btw started learning as an older adult.
If the piece involves fast repetitive octaves, sometimes w fingers in the middle doing other notes, and you have an 8 in hand span like me, there will always be pain. Always. The pain decreases with increased hand size.
@@ericaeli3807Study Abby Whiteside and maybe add in Moshe Feldenkrais to to use your wrist, arm and body to help you play piano without pain.
@@ericaeli3807 I can only reach octave in my right hand as I broke my thumb lower joint as a teen on a motorcycle accident. When I started I could barely reach a 7th on fingertips. I was taught to relax the hand slightly in the air as you rotate left or right to the next octave then form the shape just as you touch the keys. The hand gets a fraction to relax between the stretches. It took a lot of practice at first but it saved me that pain like you complained of.
@@John-boythanks. No such time for Erlkonig! Even w successive fast octaves but not the SAME octave it’s better than the same octave.
I've been playing for years and never heard of this method. To this day, I still have issues crossing under with certain scales, especially F, where the cross under is different. Thanks for the info, Robert!!
Luckily most humans have a flexible thumb that can effortless move a little under the hand to make scales smooth. Even you were struggling a few times 4:32 + 5:23 to make it smooth your way...
A good tip. But the video can be shortened and concise. The key point is not let the thumb tunnel too deeply under the 2 and 3 fingers by rotating the right hand outward a little. Right?
THANK YOU!!!
No tunnel thumb tuck….Rotate hand counter clockwise that puts your thumb right there….move forearm and rotate wrist….Practice C chord l any times and the other scales will fall into place…..Thank you for an excellent instruction.❤
The "train under the tunnel" method, in my opinion, is better for going fast. The wrist rotation method at fast speeds is too cumbersome.
Very lucid !
Great. Can you show the left hand too please?
I am very aware of the rotation of the forearm. I have a piano score I wrote that includes a gentle four note descending fingering beginning with the weakest finger on the right hand. It has been very difficult to get this gentle fast play to be even, detailed, in time, and in velocity, without rolling my arm.
I still think raccoons are better suited to play the piano than we.
You can tell when they're plotting world domination when they do the hand pyramid thing.
Teach us more pls 🎉
Okay, 56 years playing keys, never heard of this before. So, I went to the piano and found I am "folding the thumb under....when....I play slowly, but when playing fast I am doing what you are teaching, it may be the only way to play extremely fast and in perfect time. And because when hearing the scale when playing fast I just automatically without thinking about it adapted your style of fingering because it sounds better in timing. And it may not be possible for me to play fast folding the thumb under. But when playing slowly I still fold that thumb under. Hmmmmm???
I only started at 3, so only 55 years of piano here. Wiggling my hand was never an option and fortunately my thumb is anatomically able to fold under my fingers, this makes humans able tu use tools, so... Actually, no news here. Keep practicing and having fun.
I was taught the thumb to prepare to go under as soon as the index hits the D .. Th important thing is the quick displacement of the whole hand as soon as the thumb hits the F so that all fingers automatically are placed on the next 5 keys .... I do not think the thumb going under creates tension as long as one keeps the hand relaxed while doing it!!!Relaxation is the key and the quick displacement of the whole hand when practicing slowly!!! Just sharing my opinion as a pianist....
@@gregonline6506good lord I hope you’re joking by starting piano “only at 3”
@@ketz_165 I actually grew up on, under and at my parents grand piano in a rented flat at the 5th floor in Vienna, Austria. Just circumstances, nothing I could be proud of.
Let Frances Clark explain to you what you're doing to cause the pain and how to correct it.
She seems to be unavailable. Where can I learn more?
Take a look at Professor Claudio Saavedra''s 11-part animated series on Chopin Method where the use of the thumb is analyzed in exhaustive detail. Probably yuour own physiology is the root of your desire to advocate a different use of thumb. You mentioned the pain or discomfort you experienced. That's telling. For myself, I learned all 12 keys of major, and all minor scales using thumb under with no difficulty. You might mention differences in hand physiology as culprit in various fingerings diverging from so-called "common practice." Also mention the 129 page Ph.D. dissertation on Dragos Tanasescu's Treaties on Pianistic Technique, aka, controversies in fingering practices.
My biggest problem not when change 3rd with 1st finger, but when change 4th with 1st.
Mostly difficult when movement from right to left keys direction. Thank you.
It is hard for you because it is a naturally uncommon and awkward movement, but with repetition (practice) you can achieve it
Wrist seems a bit low still and not replicating the original hand dangle you started with. Also move the elbow slightly outward from body to position the thumb on the fourth up
Note when playing a scale. That occurs quite naturally with the slight elbow out movement. Courtesy Taubman technique which has some good stuff if you’re injured, but overall was way too perfectionistic, top down teaching, and inflexible for me, after three months of lessons.
This is the Taubman technique or close to it.
I am not a Taubman expert nor trainee, though I have had some exposure to it through friends and colleagues who know about it. Definitely there is some overlap but I can't make any representation about how well aligned my advice is with theirs. Certainly my advice is informed by what my Taubman-trained friends and colleagues have shared with me, though.
So you position the thumb
On the F and remove your third finger so the thumb can hit the F
I don't think the thumb can really be in contact with the F before the third finger has lifted at least most of the way from the E. But yes, I think your comment is basically aligned with the idea I'm trying to get across.
I'm sure you know a lot more than I do about this, so why is your right wrist so low?
Good question and I'm not sure I have a good answer. I suspect I'm overreacting to a past tendency to have my right wrist too high.
What about the right hand and the FM scale?
Are you asking about crossing from 4 on Bb to 1 on C as you ascend the Fm scale? I'm not sure what aspect of that particular scale is making you ask about it.
Unfortunately your camera is not seated up right
It seems like don’t tuck thumb under as much as move laterally?
Yes, that's the idea.
once the scale is being played in sixteenths at around 120 beats per minute, none of these techniques happen. the hand will do what it has to do.
While I agree things do change and get smoothed out at higher tempos, I don't think that means there's only one way that scales can be played at higher tempos. Even when I play fast, I find that focusing my mind on doing it in a particular way (as to hand position, wrist position, movements using rotation, etc.) definitely has an effect on my accuracy and on how quickly I get fatigued. Additionally, video shows that my hand truly moves differently at high tempos according to how I am thinking about its movements, even when I'm playing the same notes of the same scale at the same tempo. So I can understand why you believe what you're saying, but all the evidence says you're mistaken.
I there’s a lot of dogma here… I’m not sold on this.
You flubbed notes on the scale at 4:50 multiple times in a row. That’s odd when also saying this is a very efficient approach.
@@audiomystic I hear you that it strikes you as odd for me to espouse this approach when I still make flubs in my video about it, but I didn't intend to create the impression that using this sort of technique absolves us of the need to practice. If you find the easy method for eliminating all mistakes without practicing I would love to watch your TH-cam video about it.
Until then I think I will just persist in trying to use disciplined practice along with the best techniques I know in hope of eliminating my flubs. And I will continue working to accept that in spite of it all, I will still sometimes make mistakes.
@@robertkennedymusic as a student and a teacher of various disciplines, I tend to notice that I can’t teach something until I’m proficient in it. Because until then I haven’t encoded the qualities of the skill.
You’re welcome to share what you know at this point, I just expect you will learn more and perhaps teach more accurately, especially the meta-level when you have more control of this approach.
Personally, I’m frustrated how many clashing views about piano technique there are. I find in the end it’s important to prioritize a relaxed feeling in the hand as much as possible. Use the arm and body to avoid overuse of fingers. Everything else, appears secondary in the ‘skill tree’ of qualities.
Yup, this video was to share a suggestion with my piano-beginner cousin and to share a little glimpse into my own journey. Definitely not to exaggerate my level of authority beyond what it really is.
And then this video went accidentally slightly viral so now a lot of folks are seeing it and commenting just to try to troll the piano lesson dude, but I am not trying to be the piano lesson dude. I'm happy if my video helps somebody and though you might disagree, I'm confident it won't be harmful.
I absolutely care what other people think of my playing and that care is one reason I constantly work at trying to improve, but I would rather my playing be judged from my performances and recordings of music than by this video. In the end, though, you decide. Just realize that nothing more than an internet accident is responsible for the conversation we're having right now. It's completely unclear what you're saying I should do or understand differently.
You found a Phillips screwdriver lying on the ground for free, and you're complaining that it's no good with your slotted-head screws. Make your own screwdriver if the one you found doesn't do what you need. Be the video you want to see on the internet.
@@robertkennedymusic I feel like the concept of rotation at the wrist breaks down and higher tempos and descending as well. I’ve just gotten a lot of Taubman approach videos recommended lately and I’m not convinced this particular aspect is entirely feasible.
Is the C major scale is a musical composition?
Imagine trying to show people how to play the scale while you make a mess of it.
I don't really need to imagine, do I?
This is such a skimpy video... nothing beyond one octave, not even showing the larger transition between the B and the upper C. The piano has more than one octave.
True. It was a quick response to a specific issue that came up, definitely not a complete treatment of the subject. A great deal of additional detail is out there and all you have to do is search for it.
Too many "problems" that don't exist attributed to thumb-under technique. By the time the thumb plays (F) the whole arm has moved so that it is played just as smoothly and easily as the initial (C). That is all that is happening here... nothing "new."
It was pretty messy, not even clean within one octave
😢
It’s TOTALLY WRONG !!! Noooooo … do not follow these advices …
Why is that?
I have a forearm injury right now and I'm trying to rework my technique.
Is this a 'new' thing? Did you make it up, Have all piano teachers since Mozart been wrong? WTF is going on? lol
I know how you feel. I had also been playing a long time when I started getting introduced to the idea that forearm rotation is the most fundamental playing motion and that playing a note with the thumb crossed under the palm isn't necessarily a good idea.
And no, I definitely didn't make it up. I first got introduced to these notions by a friend who is an excellent player and teacher who did pretty extensive training in the Taubman approach with Edna Golandsky.