I just joined Christ's church in September and recently discovered your guy's channel and you guys have strengthened my testimony so much. Keep doing what you guys do and keep debunking these myths!
@@MusicScoresYT its in the "contact us" tab. you just send us an email! I'd love you to give us details! Typing on youtube this kind of stuff just attracts anti-mormon trolls.
Im trying to read and understand nibblys temple and cosmos right now, im going to have to check this out. Been inactive for 10 years but im coming back and it's a hell of a story.
@@WARDRADIO I didn't fall due to disbelief. Things began to unfold right in front of me that I wasn't quite ready for. I'll do a podcast with yall, quakoo will love it because it involves the supernatural.
I find it strange that people discount reformed Egyptian, when many of us speak, reformed English. Our own language changes all the time and has been for hundreds of years now.
@@Whiskey.Tango.Actual A language can change over time shown by the examples of languages changing over time. You can't get more a perfect equivalent argument than that.
@@zileris you're trying, and good on you. Is the claim that the people of Lehi or Jered spoke Egyptian and over time we got a "reformed" version of it? Because this video implies that reformed Egyptian is an amalgamation of Mayan, Egyptian, English, etc. To have your claim be correct (that this is an equivalent argument), it would require that reformed Egyptian comes from the Egyptian language, just as say modern American English comes from the English spoken a few hundred years ago. This doesn't even brush on the fact that the English language is exhaustively documented by the secular body whereas not a single neutral or secular body recognizes reformed Egyptian to be a thing.
I find it strange that Mormons are THE BEST at just ignoring anything which would make an objective, logical, intelligent person go, yea, that's false. The power of ignorance is something isn't it. Let's be clear: if Mormons were forced to face head on the true facts surrounding their religion, not a single one could come out of that coherently defending their religion. That's why the strategy always has been, ignore, ignore, ignore (and pretend a little, make believe time for adults)
English comes from Latin. Latin comes from Greek. Greek comes from Phoenician. Phoenician comes from Egyptian. So English is Reformed Egyptian and I would bet that the Book of Mormon was written in Phoenician.
Ancient languages only spread because the people who spoke it spread. Based on that fact alone, we can know that Europeans are direct descendants of Egyptians AND ancient Israelites. If you want to know what Jacob's family looked like as well as Solomon and Jesus Christ, just look at a European.
But we already know this from the descriptions in the Book of Mormon. The Nephites were white, Mary was white (1 Ne 11:13) and Nephi says they looked like the Europeans (1 Ne 13:15).
Phoenicia is just a modern name for Canaan or Samaria which was the land of the northern tribes of Israel. It makes perfect sense that the Brass Plates were written in the same language because this was a Josephite record whose lands were in the north. And it would have been perfectly reasonable that the Nephites simply copied from the Brass Plates into the Book of Mormon and continued in the same language for the rest of it.
The book isn't new. It was published way back in 2015. The fact that more of our scholars haven't talked about it in depth, even just to make a critique of its flaws, is a real travesty. It is the closest thing to a slam dunk besides the presence of NHM in Saudi Arabia. Jerry Grover even sent it out to a few Egyptologists to get a critique and was basically told he did everything correctly as far as using the Hieratic Lexicons, but it can't be real because they "know" Mormonism is a fraud. Essentially, they said Joseph had to have somehow learned and formulated a coherent mix of hieratic, demotic and Maya-like script with a consistent grammatical layout all on his own....before we knew how to translate any of it. I heard there are Egyptologists that have concerns about Jerry's work, and I'd like to hear them, but I've read the book cover-to-cover and I find it really difficult to find a fatal flaw. I disagree with some of his extrapolations into Mesoamerican symbology and relics, and I personally wouldn't have translated the conjectured Nephite, Lamanite, Mulekite and Gadianton robber glyphs the same, sticking to their descriptive translations instead. You compare this to the Voynich manuscript, for which no other script or grammar or cypher for any known language exists, and its clear to me that the Caractors document is less likely the be nonsense by a mile.
Sorry, it’s still make believe. The book of Abraham is a clear example of fraud. No scholar or really anybody takes it serious in the world. Oh yes the nhm thing … The actual name is "nehem" which is hardly analogous to "nahom" The book of Mormon never explained the precise location of the site meaning you cannot directly attribute "nahom" to "nehem" The site had been mentioned on many pre 19th century maps, considering smiths father was a an educated teacher, it's likely he had a map or two spare. Smith could've also likely came up with the name by changing a single letter of the biblical character "Nahum," he did the same with omri and Omni, levi and lehi, He did the same with the Book of Abraham too, elkanah (samuels father) and elkenah (actually the Egyptian god qebahsenuef)
And the meditationsonvogel blogspot I wrote has also not received any critique whatsoever, except from Vogel himself, who went back and forth with me on some of the points but he didn’t address the Egyptology since he’s not an Egyptologist. A few people, like Blake Ostler and Jeff Lindsay, have been quite supportive of my efforts on this subject, but everyone who has actually studied Egyptology has left me with a promise to eventually get around to considering my arguments and then never considered them or been intellectually curious enough to ask me questions or voice to me concerns. At this point, it seems people just skim rather than really read, then use their crocodile brain to rationalize ignoring, blatantly. So, LDS Egyptologists won’t engage with substance, and everyone else assumes that “if there was something to it, the Egyptologists would be talking about it.” So it’s sort of a tragedy-of-the-commons type situation. I sympathize with Grover. It’s good he’s finally getting honest engagement with his work.
@@LatterDayData I personally try not to fall into that trap. Since Jerry provides his references, you can easily follow his methodology and see if it is legitimate yourself. The veiled laughs every time this is brought up by Bro. Murphy over on "MormonismwiththeMurph", I find don't really grasp the gravity of the work. Few people take the time to read a 400 page book and then also check the references. The lack of attention and persistent "I don't know..." responses from scholars more generally is annoying. It has been 8 years, more than enough time to give substantive and detailed feedback. Even as a pet project to review the the book should have been done by somebody in a related field by now. If it's wrong, it's wrong, but the fact it never comes up when people discuss translation theories in regards to the Book of Mormon is beyond ridiculous.
@@TheYgds if you have time, please look up meditationsandmeaning (dot) blogspot (dot) com/2020/05/meditations-on-vogel.html and let me know what you think of the First Meditation. You seem like a person who may be able to appreciate it. I think it’s up there with NHM, and I’ve checked my facts so many times I’m pretty sure I’ve got everything locked down.
When I was a teen and first learned of the paper Joseph Smith copied with reformed Egyptian characters, my mind was blown. And my immediate question was, “why has the church not poured recourses into translating this!? This is huge!” Glad to hear it’s finally happened. And if I’m not mistaken, this is taken from the first book of Lehi. So it’s our only copy we have translated from that book!!!
Where since then even once has there been another example of so-called reformed Egyptian? How about the papyrus that was clearly the book of the dead falsely interpreted as the book of Abraham? Joe Smith was a serial cho-mo and known fraudster. It takes a lot of cognitive dissonance to believe this perverted nonsense!
I'm assuming that this episode was filmed before I asked for Jerry Grover to come on the show? You know who else you guys should get into? Margaret Barker. She's not LDS but she has rebuilt the ancient beliefs of 1st temple Israelite cultic religion as well as early Christian beliefs. Fascinating parallels with our religion.
I love Dr. Barker's work but she's frightfully busy in England and may be unavailable. When she infrequently appears at Old Testament, temple or Mormon studies symposia in Utah she gets a rock star welcome.
So no confirmation or further proof of this since writing this in 2015? As someone who is struggling with the church this is of ZERO help. Not unlike many other issues...horses, chariots, steel, geography, lack of archaeological proof, and the various other and very long list of stuff. Not your fault at all but every time someone comes out with this type of confirmation stuff nothing much comes of it. The church stopped putting their endorsement on things since a certain letter scandals (multiple).
I mean it’s the sad downside of academia. We’re used to getting information in a 60 second TikTok without realizing that history books can sometimes be an authors life work.
Brother Taylor LeBlanc, everything you do is based on faith. You don't know anything perfectly nor does anyone else. For all you know we are all just advanced AI bots in an advanced simulation created by a 5th grader on Planet 78X-D4 in Universe 2142-2XK for a school project that got a C+. Further, no one knows what is going to happen next. The physical universe might burp and the Milky Way might just evaporate and we will all be less than an afterthought. Further, you could have all the physical proof your heart desires, and still not know that the Book of Mormon is true. You have all the physical proof to know, for example, that various fictional novels that take place in the present world around you could be true, and yet they aren't. They are just stories that happen to have real world markers.
It's all a fraud! Study the Bible you don't need absurd mental gymnastics to prove 0.2%. The Bible is again and again proven through archeological records, genetics , and linguistics. All the things the book of Mormon is not. Start learning about the true Jesus and put your faith in him. He died on a cross so that you may be cleansed. 100% a free gift given through faith and not works. Good luck, friend.
@@rl9802 Brother R L, what if you wrote a fictional story with all sorts of real world references (like a fictional story that takes place in present day NYC), and then buried it in the ground and then it got dug it up 1500 years from now and translated it into a modern language? Would that fictional story of yours somehow be a true account because future archeologists were somehow able to confirm all the real world references you made in your fictional story? Would that fictional story of yours somehow be a true account because future linguists were somehow able to confirm the authenticity of the language in your fictional story? Likewise, imagine the opposite scenario. What if you wrote a true account but with very few to none real world references, and then buried it in the ground and then it got dug it up 1500 years from now and translated it into a modern language? Would that true account of yours somehow be a fictional story because future archeologists were somehow unable to correlate anything about it with their present findings? Would that true account of yours somehow now be a fictional story because future linguists were somehow unable to correlate anything about it with their present findings? And, here is the kicker. If tomorrow a whole lineup of archaeological evidence were laid out before you for everything in the Book of Mormon you could possibly hope for, you still wouldn’t know if the content of the Book of Mormon were from God. You still wouldn’t have a conviction. That can only come from the Holy Ghost. The only way to know that the content of anything is from God, including the Bible and the Book of Mormon, is from God, is by the power of God. The Holy Ghost is the member of the Godhead that is in charge of providing conviction of things of God. The amount or lack of physical evidence doesn't even factor into the equation. 1 Cor 2:10-14: But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God. For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. Which things also we speak, not in the words which man’s wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. 1 Cor 12:3: Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.
This is the kind of stuff we seek & enjoy, not b/c we need it to know the restored gospel is true & that JS was a prophet; we already know that by the Spirit. We seek it b/c it’s interesting & it increases our knowledge & understanding & yes, boosts us up. The church isn’t in the business of proving the BoM or any other part of the gspl true, it’s in the business of finding those whom the Lord has prepared to receive it. Once we put ourselves in the mindset of proving it true, (to ppl who won’t listen & will only twist it anyway), we invite pride & contention in. I personally have to be careful not to fall into prideful ways & thinking (as I learn these things) or to fall into using these kinds proofs when sharing the gspl. Of course, If there’s a sincere non-member seeker who asks abt these things, it can be presented in the right spirit… but not as a premise of sharing the gspl… we must be careful to not care more abt being right than abt sharing the love of the Savior. I’m a convert of 42 yrs. If the missionaries would’ve gone into any of this, it would’ve gone over my head - I didn’t need it. What I needed, along w a knowledge of who I am, where I came from, & why I’m here, was a Savior & an understanding of His Atonement & why I needed a Savior. Trying to prove our beliefs using “proofs” would have just muddied the waters. As I studied the gospel thru the yrs, after having a testimony & baptism, I grew to love the restored gospel b/c of its logic & how it answers questions that are unanswerable in general Christianity. (Why wld God create billions of ppl just to go to hell? And believing He did that, how can you claim He’s an all-loving & merciful God? If He created everything from nothing, why did He create sin & Satan? These, & many more, are questions my Christian friends deal w that the restored gospel answers. While I like this stuff, there are enough “proofs” in the doctrines, the fruits, the miracles & power & organization of the Church, that I don’t need.
We don't know that the hill cumorah is in New York? Joseph and Oliver said it was a fact that it was in New York and that it was the location of the destruction of both the Jaredites and Nephites in letter 7 of the Wentworth letters.
Dang.....@lukev483. How can we change that tune?🧐 How can we turn that frown upside-down😎😅 I actually agree sacrament is a snoozefest😴. Sometimes it's just the ward you're in. I've been in many and I can say... some of them were straight out of hell with their overly self righteous behavior that dominated the whole ward. But other wards, like the one we're in now are far more animated and entertaining. As far as one man dying for all the sins of the world... without that we'd have no purpose thus no life, we wouldn't even be here. I feel like a lot of people suffer depression and don't feel like they fit in. One way we get through sacrament is making bets to see who cries first and how long it'll take🤣. I know It's strange but I'm fairly obnoxious so it's my nature
@@lukev483if church is extremely boring it's because you're not helping anyone. It also helps to have the spirit and learn from the spirit rather than the speakers. I've had some absolutely powerful sacrament meetings when I take an idea from a speaker and just start pondering it and allow the spirit to shape my ideas and teach me new things. It's honestly mind boggling to hear such a shallow take on such deep and complex ideas. The plan of salvation centers on a plan which allows justice and mercy to be perfected in God. To boil it down to "one guy paying for everyone's sins, I don't like someone taking the blame for my mistakes" is probably the laziest way I've heard that described. Eternal families is an idea centered in the plan of salvation that teaches us that there is a path of divine happiness. It's not just something warm and fuzzy to talk about. It's a path that you can strive towards that is the highest possible path a being can walk to gain happiness/glory. God is simply inviting us to learn about it, practice it, understand, and later perfect it. Divorce often occurs between couples who aren't focused on that path. It's a process that requires real effort and growth and joint effort to overcome obstacles, it's not something that just happens naturally. I've seen couples that have reached a level of union that I know could only have come through living the gospel. Combine that with having kids and building strong bonds with them together....I honestly can't even imagine living in a world where that type of family focus isn't part of my life and that of my family's. What a sad reality and existence. Are you a parent? Everything negative you mentioned about your experience was, sorry to say, 100% your own fault. Maybe your dad could have done better to help you have a different perspective but it sounds like, from your comment, he's in the same boat. I'll just leave you with this, if you have the spirit and a strong sense of love for learning, you can have powerful and fulfilling spiritual experiences every day, especially when you combine it with serving those around you. There's very little else in life that is as emotionally and spiritually rewarding as living the gospel to the fullest. I've tried...in my youth...everything else is pretty fleeting and meaningless.
@lukev483 Well ya found what works for you😊. If you ever decide you want to go back...I can give you some clues on how to make it interesting😅. I'm kind of a clown so being serious isn't my thing😆 Maybe even find a different ward if you decide🤷♀️. There are options
@lukev483 I agree some people become over zealous on some issues while others are off the chart crazy. I'm still a very active member but a very independent one. I usually stand outside the crowd and love it that way. I honestly love the gospel and love that I'm not the end all of everything. I love that there's a higher power so we're not just wasting our time here on earth suffering for no reason. But....I too struggle with church members at times. They're like family.... some you love, others you stay far away from🙈😅. So I get what you're saying😊👌
I was just listening to a Journal of Discourses of Orson Pratt where he mentions the mounds that n Ohio and upstate New York and how there was a society for treasure hunters and how they found a stone that was like two clamshell halves glued together had Jewish writings inside I think on plates of papyrus. He said he saw the stone container and the contents. This was in the mid to late 1800’s.
That was Hugh Nibley's hypothesis as I recall, based on ancient writings that were using Egyptian script the write Hebrew words. As such, all research before Jerry Grover followed that lead when looking at the "Caracters" document. It was fruitless for the most part. In fact, I'm rather surprised at the life span of that hypothesis. Mormon is the one who talks about "reformed egyptian" but it should be obvious that what that meant would be very different to him, being almost 1000 years removed from the Old World, than it would to someone like Nephi. I think Jerry's approach was far more cohesive and unlike the prevailing hypothesis, actually yielded fruit.
You should definitely look at the book by Satan's d Polly Johnson (Translating The Anthon Transcript) - they take the character document (they incorrectly called it the Anthon Transcript, but it is the character document instead) and have compared it to Egyptian, Micmac, and Maori, and matched these old glyphic systems to match these characters on this Joseph Smith document, and translated those characters. It turns out to be from Ether in the Book Of Mormon. You ought to give it a look. I think you would be quite interested.
17:04 its a Self-Published book and the abstract you're reading from was written by the author, claiming their own book is a "landmark event". The reason the church isn't blasting this from the rooftops is because they know the book of mormon has already been proven to not be historical, and this translation is BS. He is not an expert. A geologist, civil engineer, and "translator" means hobbyist, not an educated expert. He makes no reference to any expertise in the subject.
@@fightingfortruth9806 I’ve never seen evidence to demonstrate that anthropologically. But you can have similar or related writing systems without the people or languages being the same. That’s why so many European languages use nearly identical alphabets. It’s the Alphabet itself is what is derived from ancient Egyptian via the paleo Semitic writing system. Hence Alpha-bet (aleph and bet are the first two letters in Semitic writing systems). China and Japan use the same characters for their writing systems but are two distinct people groups.
Check out the video clip from my other post here. Genetic studies have shown that western Europeans are descended from ancient Egyptians. That is not the case for modern Egyptians.
People groups always spread their language when they move. The entire Mediterranean anciently used reformed Egyptian language, otherwise called the Phoenician alphabet, including the Carthaginians. The Danites were prolific sailors and spread all over Europe. That's why you see their name still all over Europe, from the Danube River to Lon"Dan", to Danmark. It goes back even older than that. Iberia, named after the Iber River, comes from the word Eber or Heber,great grandson of Noah. We are called Indo-Europeans because our people spread all the way from India to Ireland anciently. Only after the 7th century AD did north Africa really change from the Islamic invaders. Our people were pushed into Europe.
A few things I've found fascinating about Egyptian writing. One is that demotic arose in Northern Egypt during the 7th Century BC. Two is that it was a simplified form of hieratic that was eventually called document writing but we don't know what it was called before it became common to use it to write documents. Three is that demotic eventually replaced a competing system in southern Egypt called abnormal hieratic. Abnormal hieratic did not survive long enough to get a cooler name like document writing or people script (demotic). Is it possible that reformed Egyptian was just a name for a transitional period of the demotic or something similar? Or maybe abnormal is just a bad translation and the competing system should have been called reformed hieratic? Even if neither of those are possibilities, I still find it fascinating that Egyptian was in the midst of a writing reform the same time the Book of Mormon says Lehi lived.
Great comment about the meaning of Hebrew "isles". That is the Nephites could be on an "isle" of the sea and not an "island" as we English define it. That statement is true no matter which geography one believes of The Book of Mormon.
The Latin/Roman alphabet (used for English) is literally reformed Egyptian. Demotic Egyptian is not deformed English, English is deformed characters from the Egyptian! "The Latin alphabet evolved from the visually similar Etruscan alphabet, which evolved from the Cumaean Greek version of the Greek alphabet, which was itself descended from the Phoenician alphabet, which in turn derived from Egyptian hieroglyphs." 👆 (Wikipedia - Latin alphabet) Demotic came as a cursive form of hieraric, which in turn was a shorthand for the original hieroglyphics.
Yes, please do Alissa 4:03 Grenfelt. She has desecrated the temple ceremony. She shows videos of actual parts of the temple service taken by disgusting members. She shows the temple clothing and puts it on during her video. She makes fun of everything. Many of the comments are so disgusting. I've sent numerous comments but almost immediately there were a huge number of disgusting negative comments to mine. I used AI to search for anything about her. Everything that came back was glowing and positive. I pressed the issue and AI Copilot covered up, protected her and stopped the conversation saying it didn't like the direction the discussion was going. I am very suspicious of her entire enterprise. There must be many others involved in supporting this religious persecution, mocking and hate. Please do something on her and her network!!!!!
I agree that we should make more use of external evidences for the Book of Mormon’s divine authenticity, but only in certain contexts. The surest demonstration of the Book of Mormon’s divine authenticity is not in the archeological or linguistic discoveries that have been made since its initial publication, but in the very words, ideas, and message thereof. I fear that putting the external evidences at the center of our discussion of the Book of Mormon betrays a lack of faith that we have in the internal power of its words to convince others of its divine origin. That being said, we should not let the external/secular challenges to the Book of Mormon’s authenticity go unanswered. We should make use of external/linguistic evidences primarily insofar as they refute the external claims of inauthenticity. Or at the very least, our discussion and examination of physical or linguistic evidences for the divine authenticity of the Book of Mormon should take place only in the periphery of our faith, not in the center.
Something I notice about the Nephites and Lamanites glyphs, is the one symbolizing the Nephites is very similar to the one symbolizing God. Like the cross mark is simply lower as if to say they are God's people but he is greater/higher than them. The one saud to represent the Lamanites is in the opposite or opposing form with the lines being parallel rather than perpendicular to each other. I could be wrong. That's simply my own interpretation.
Brother Hugh Jones, you might want to read up on The Hill Cumorah section of FAIR. For example: The Book of Mormon text indicates that the Hill Cumorah in which the Nephite records were hidden is not the same location as the one where Moroni hid his plates Despite this early "identification" of the Hill Cumorah of the Book of Mormon with the hill in New York, readers who studied the text closely would later conclude that they could not be the same. The primary text to demonstrate this is Mormon 6:6 6 And it came to pass that when we had gathered in all our people in one to the land of Cumorah, behold I, Mormon, began to be old; and knowing it to be the last struggle of my people, and having been commanded of the Lord that I should not suffer the records which had been handed down by our fathers, which were sacred, to fall into the hands of the Lamanites, (for the Lamanites would destroy them) therefore I made this record out of the plates of Nephi, and hid up in the hill Cumorah all the records which had been entrusted to me by the hand of the Lord, save it were these few plates which I gave unto my son Moroni. Mormon clearly separates the hill Cumorah from where Moroni buried the plates (the drumlin in Palmyra).
☝️ this. I think people feel it is a nice gesture of unity to pretend there is a question here still but entertaining the meso delusion is counter productive at this point. I 🤮 a little in my mouth ever time it comes up.
In the grand canyon archeologists found Egyptian artifacts and the American Indians had middle eastern dna The natives known their ancestry came from the middle east
Hold your horses, fellas! I am intrigued by this, but remember-truth will be established (by the testimony of) two or three witnesses. Those who have ears to hear, let them hear.
Jacob Hansen's quote was obtained by him from Neal A Maxwell. As to scientific evidence, that is the province of scholarship, not faith. Understanding the epistemology is very important. Whether Jerry Grover's translation is authentic must be based on actual review by Egyptologists. How many such reviews have been done of his work?
Truth is both logical and spiritual. The truth is the Book of Mormon is what it says it is. It is not a scam. It is time the world accepts it as truth. There is too much truth to it, and evidence to continue to look at it a pseudo scripture.
Wow this is great information indeed. Wondered if chiasmic structures were found in the document? Then I saw it as you were scrolling through. Noticed if you pause at 26:54-58 page 182-184 in the book mentioned something about it. Appers that he found at least 2 chiasmus in the reformed Egyptian Caractors Document? Is that the the way you see it in the book? That is an amazing discovery They call some of this writing mirror glyphing which would correspond with Hebrewism or Chiasmus. IMO We know that Chiasmus is prevelant in the BOM and Hebrew style languages. Thanks again!
The first two characters on the “Charactors” document are nearly identical to the words “El” and “Yah” in proto-Hebrew (Nahal ‘Avedat, 22:2, 8th to 7th Cent. B.C., The Name of God, James Harris
@@literatesasquatch There are likely many ways in which various characters evolved. I was referring to a specific evolutionary step, the Phoenician aleph to the Greek alpha.
This was thoroughly debunked by Dr. John Lundwall on the Mormonish podcast. The "caracters" document is logo symbolic / cryptic from a magic world view of Joe the conman Smith.
Cool episode. I've followed a lot of what we have found out about shorthand or business Egyptian. This thing with reversing Egyptian characters and it looks just like English is amazing. It actually shows what may be the root of some English letters. Egyptian? Maybe
The Book of Mormon literally takes place in Egypt. The Nephites are Ethiopian Jews. They migrate back to Egypt in Helaman 3 and are destroyed according to Jeremiah 44. Lehi never sailed to America. He circumnavigated Africa in 600 BC and stayed in the Old World. Ethiopian Jews believe Ethiopia is the Garden of Eden according to Genesis 2:13. That's where Lehi was commanded to go in 1 Nephi 8. It's an Ethiopian book. It follows all the Ethiopian traditions and myths. Even the Book of Ether is just the Ethiopian version of Genesis. It's Ethiopians explaining how Israel was settled by Ethiopians. The Jaredites started in Ethiopia and sailed down the Nile River to Egypt. Then they sailed to Israel. They turned Israel into the land of Milk and Honey because they brought those things from Ethiopia, the Garden of Eden. The internal consistency is off the charts. Something everyone has sadly missed. Look at Omer for example. His journey is out of Israel and into Africa, then East to Ethiopia. This is the same journey Lehi takes. Moroni is careful to remind us of the similarities. When Nephi talks about the "prophets of old" that were cast of Jerusalem. He is talking about Omer. @@ldsmackem88
It was probably discovered in Ethiopia by James Bruce in 1700's He brought hundreds of copied manuscripts back to Europe but died after publishing just a few. The remainder of his Ethiopian manuscripts were given to professors to keep, translate and publish. After publishing the Book of Enoch and the Kebra Nagast, the desire for Ethiopian manuscripts evaporated. They were considered apocryphal and just a corrupt version of religion held by Jews that were separated from the main body in Israel. There were many errors and differences (The Book of Mormon still contains these to this day). It's impossible to prove but, The Book of Mormon obviously fell into the hands of the professors at Dartmouth. The lectures they were giving reflect the religion in the Book of Mormon and many students began publishing their own works that follow the theme of explaining the Native American Indian as a "lost tribe". Professor John Smith was Joseph Smiths cousin and Joseph Smith was born across the river. Joseph Smith Sr. often attended lectures at Dartmouth and almost certainly attended Freemason lodge meetings at Dartmouth. Baptizing the Native American Indian is why Dartmouth was moved to New Hampshire and this is where the idea was born. They were reading a true account of true lost tribes (Ethiopian Jews in the Book of Mormon ie The Nephites) and began applying it to the Native American Indian. They viewed it as a parable they could tell the Native American Indian to explain why they were living so far separated from Christianity. Why have they been born and died without the ability to know Christ? Remember, those that were not baptized, like Alvin Smith, were sent to Hell. Again, this is the stated goal of Dartmouth when it was founded. It was Joseph Smith that actually published the book with the bold claim that it was written by Ancient Americans instead of Ancient Ethiopians. He believed the Native American Indian would be converted and the ends justified the means. So, no matter how hard you try and look for the Book of Mormon in America, you will never find it. Jews did not live in Ancient America. The Jews that wrote the Book of Mormon are Ethiopian Jews. Lehi migrated to Egypt and was rebuked by Jeremiah, read Jeremiah 44. Then he had the Tree of Life Vision that guided him up the Nile to Ethiopia, the Garden of Eden. This is what makes Lehi an Ethiopian Jew. It's a migration that has been happening since at least King Solomon. Then in Helaman 3, we clearly read about Nephites migrating back to Egypt, where they are destroyed. Read Jeremiah 44 and Helaman 3 and look for the word "Desolation". Desolation is Egypt. Check the internal maps of the Book of Mormon. You can see Africa, the Nile and Desolation is Egypt (and Israel). @@Signal_Lost.
Brad, i think it’s interesting that the criticism of the character document is old English. If you read the Book of Enoch Commentary by Michael B Rush on the Germanic tribes and Chauci and begin to dig into Viking history you’ll find fascinating and interesting parallels to the Lost 10 (L10) tribes of Israel and the connection of the Hopi / Ojibwa character comparisons to both ancient Hebrew / Egyptian to the Micmac and the Glotto linguistic evidences of the North American tribes to be irrefutable evidences. Wayne May has shared peer reviewed linguistic evidences. It’s quite eye opening the connection to the Hagoths ships and the connection to Germania and what would be later Ephraimite connection to Anglo/Saxon (Chauci) heritage people that “buried their weapons of war” being a mound building culture as well. Their Hebraic traditions add to the linguistic similarities. I find it interesting that people are so dogmatic in one viewpoint adopting the views of the academic narrow minded idiots. Why couldn’t there be linguistic drift to Maya or further south to match the time periods. I’d love to hear your thoughts after you read Michaels Book of Enoch commentary.
If I remember correctly, and if you watched our videos as vigorously as you hated Mormonism, and if your memory were as dependable as your vitriol, you’d remember Jim Hee mentioning that the last time the area was documented on a map (in the 1700-1800’s I believe) it was documented as a caliphate. I don’t remember exactly which video this was in but it was in there…
@@madmanmanx BTW, I don’t hate Mormonism. Technically I’m still one. What I hate is BS’rs who constantly try to pound square pegs into round holes and mislabel it proof.
Again, all one needs to do is go to the Ramses III exhibit and look at all the engraved gold plates and Ramses floor to ceiling (plus ceiling) gold engraved walls with a mix of classic hieroglyphic and (what I like to call) Egyptian shorthand, possibly related to the reformed Egyptian.
All the arguments I see against reformed Egyptian seem to come from people who don’t understand language, or how it evolves The more I learn about language in general, the less worried I am about reformed Egyptian
Brother Geothro, yep. And, that pretty much goes for all such arguments. Lazy learners that don't understand much of anything, especially history and how it works, and how to apply logic to an argument.
Brother Kris Murphy, why trust the Tanners? Why trust you? Where is your glory that we should listen to you? You have nothing to offer, as usual, just stone throwing by an antimo/exmo that cannot move on with their lives. What can you offer to eternal beings that chose Christ from before the Creation and that are here in this fallen realm abiding in Christ as part of their eternal progression?
@@lukev483 Brother Luke, honestly, in the several times it has happened, I wasn't even thinking about it. That is, I never really doubted that President Nelson was called to be Christ's living prophet. As to how I know it is the Holy Ghost vs Satan, well, that is much like how Moses knew I suppose. There is no glory in the influence that comes from Team Lucy. I know the Holy Ghost because I experience time and time again as I study and ponder the scriptures, as I pray, as I listen to GC talks, etc. Sure, it often comes when I am fasting and praying for a certain thing, but it also often comes when I am not even expecting it, when I really didn't have a question on my mind, when I am not actively seeking it. When I experience the Holy Ghost, there is usually a greater sense of who I am, additional insights of certain precepts that I had never considered before. When I am experiencing the Holy Ghost, there is a deep clarity and profound feeling of meekness and gratitude and peace that comes over me. I find myself telling Father, “It is enough. I see clearly now.” It is actually hard to describe with mortal words, but clarity is pretty close. Everything just fits and comes together. It is satori, or enlightenment. Plus, it typically melts away any evil desires such as those of the natural man. The tendency of self-centeredness, etc. The desire to do good only and no more evil is enhanced. The desire to have others to also come and partake of the same sweet fruit of the Spirit is increased. The desire to lift and serve and to do whatever God wants in any way He wants is increased. The desire to have my eye single to the glory of God is increased. And on and on. The physical emotions and feelings that often come with it are secondary and result due to the Holy Spirit piercing through my physical shell. In other words, the spiritual inputs overwhelm the physical inputs.
D&C 128:20 And again, what do we hear? Glad tidings from Cumorah! Moroni, an angel from heaven, declaring the fulfilment of the prophets-the book to be revealed. A voice of the Lord in the wilderness of Fayette, Seneca county, declaring the three witnesses to bear record of the book! We do no where Cumorah is. It's in New York, just as it says here.
Oh no, you do not get to say that Joseph Smith translated an actual glyph that just happened to be accidentally put on the Kinderhook plates, and make the claim you did earlier saying that he could’ve translated the book of Mormon from a Ramen noodles pack. Either the translation method matters, or it’s completely inspired. You can’t have it both ways. It’s all the “did Joseph smith see the words on the rock in the hat, or did he get a feeling for the words?” all over again. Because he writes horses despite no horses in old America-during the alleged BOM times-and writes curelom and cumom instead of picking an existing word that’s “close enough.” Which is it?
Brother Braden Sorensen, not sure how much translation experience you have, but I have been at it for over 30 years. Your assumptions about translation do not match my personal experience. There are many ways to skin a cat, as they say, many ways. I may use multiple techniques within just a few words of translation. I haven't had the experience of Joseph Smith, that is to translate by the gift and power of God, but I can imagine that it too can be multifaceted.
Gee, you must have missed the 2018 research that noted pre-Columbian horses. And you do realize that Joseph made a comment that one character on the Kinderhook plates looked like one of the Book of Abraham characters, but then never made a translation of the Kinderhook plates? Just a big nothingburger of the antichrist tripe.
Book of Mormon Central does make a lot of mistakes in geology history, archaeology and religion. For instance, the geography of the book contradict what profits have said in favor of their allegedly archaeological discoveries, claiming that it actually happened in Central America instead of North America.
Brother Daniel Mauricio, prophets and others talk and write about a lot of things without intending it to be anything more than their own opinion or assumption or present understanding. Just because a person is a prophet doesn't mean that they are constantly fasting and praying to receive revelation about everything they say or write. They put their pants on one leg as a time like the rest of us. Think of prophets and apostles as more like coaches on Team Zion. The Father is the owner, Jesus is the GM, the prophets and apostles are the coaching staff. They aren't perfect, but the Father and the Son are okay with that. The Godhead could do everything. They don't need to use prophets and apostles. And yet, they do. And, they say things like, "whether by my own voice or the voice of my servants, it is the same." So, that should give all of us pause. They are willing to work through the weakness of men to confound the so-called smart and strong (there is no such thing, ironically enough as none of us could even continue breathing if God didn’t allow it). We need to be careful that we aren't clinging to unfounded notions about our leaders.
Prophets, just like any one else, are known to have had strong opinions about things that turn out later to be incorrect, that are not part of our core doctrine, but their opinions only. They aren't always inspired in everything they say, and we should not expect them to be. Also, I don't think God has revealed to anyone the actual BofM locations. I think even Joseph Smith didn't know the actual locations either, but was making assumptions, just like other early church members did. Some prophets, such as Joseph Fielding Smith, had strong opinions that the hemispherical model was correct and that evolution was false, but these were his opinions only, and he held them strongly. Many church members, especially those with strong scientific backgrounds, now see both of these views as incorrect. Joseph Fielding Smith was still a wonderful man and a good prophet, but he was not always correct in his opinions. That actually makes him more relatable, to me :)
@@lukev483 - I don't think polygamy was a mistake. However, I think the priesthood restriction was a mistake on the part of Brigham Young. I actually don't have a problem with polygamy, if it is done 'right', and it is certainly not, and should not be, for everyone.
@@lukev483 - that’s why I said it is not for everyone. I don’t think it’s right to outlaw polygamy for example. Not that I would ever want to practice it, but that those who want to practice it in a way that respects the free will of all involved should be allowed to- not ‘Warren Jeffs style’. Peter Santenello did an excellent couple of videos recently on this topic, where he interviewed some folks in AZ who practice it. They were doing it in what I would call a 'good' way.. they condemned the way Warren Jeffs did it. They seemed like good people and they respect the wishes of all involved. Sure it would be a difficult practice, and has its own set of challenges, and I believe that's why only a small percentage of LDS were called to practice it in the 1800's. It helped them to grow in numbers during that early period, which was crucial, so I can see the wisdom behind it actually, at that time. I don't think it should be reinstated in the LDS church, as I think it would no longer necessarily be a beneficial thing in our day and age, but I'm open minded in this regard.
FWIW, "and it came to pass" is typically rendered as just "さて (sate)" in the Japanese version of the Book of Mormon so it wouldn't be surprising to learn that it is just a single character or so in Reformed Egyptian as "sate" can be rendered as just one kanji (such as "偖").
Why would Mayan effect reformed Egyptian? The Mayan's were thousands of miles away from the Nephites... Cumorah is right where Joseph Smith, the angel Moroni and the church say it is. Oh...now I understand this info is coming from someone stuck in the Thomas B Marsh Meso America "theories" long since debunked ...
The Logo graphic type of writing style were ideas are encoded in images reminds me of Moroni bemoans the disconnect between their writing system and spoken word... 23 And I said unto him: Lord, the Gentiles will mock at these things, because of our weakness in writing;...thou hast not made us mighty in writing; for thou hast made all this people that they could speak much, because of the Holy Ghost which thou hast given them; 24 And thou hast made us that we could write but little, because of the awkwardness of our hands. Behold, thou hast not made us mighty in writing like unto the brother of Jared, for thou madest him that the things which he wrote were mighty even as thou art, unto the overpowering of man to read them. 25 Thou hast also made our words powerful and great, even that we cannot write them; wherefore, when we write we behold our weakness, and stumble because of the placing of our words; and I fear lest the Gentiles shall mock at our words. 26 ... the Lord spake unto me, saying: Fools mock, but they shall mourn; and my grace is sufficient for the meek, that they shall take no advantage of your weakness; Moroni is bemoaning that he can't just put the brother of Jareds words into the Record because in Ether 4;5 "Wherefore the Lord hath commanded me to write them; and I have written them. And he commanded me that I should seal them up;..." he was commanded to write a summary of the 24 plates from theJaredit record but not the whole thing The lord didn't let him do ctrl+c ctrl+v to the jaredite record and this is what he is complaining to the Lord about in ether 12 he is complaining that the Jaredite record was much easier to read and more eloquent than his writing system and he was afraid that gentile Academics would mock him and his writing style. But fools Mock but they will mourn.
@@lrsvalentine Yea that’s kinda what I was going for. A lot of their “evidence” or “debunking” episodes have 0 evidence to back up their claim. Any time they bring up “valid sources” it’s someone on church payroll. Reformed Egyptian is a work of fiction by all reasonable standards and if it wasn’t why is there no evidence of it outside of Mormonism? Just silly.
![เขามัทรี - เอ็กซ์ ศุภกฤต - จอนนี่มิวสิค [ Official MV ]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/AS9ufKuQIVs/mqdefault.jpg)
I just joined Christ's church in September and recently discovered your guy's channel and you guys have strengthened my testimony so much. Keep doing what you guys do and keep debunking these myths!
Dude! That's great to hear! What's your story, man? Please tell us on the website!
@@WARDRADIO I'd love to! Where do I tell my story on your website?
Same! Just got baptized on the 22nd.
@@poljke9110 I turned 19 on the 22nd this month lol
@@MusicScoresYT its in the "contact us" tab. you just send us an email! I'd love you to give us details! Typing on youtube this kind of stuff just attracts anti-mormon trolls.
Im trying to read and understand nibblys temple and cosmos right now, im going to have to check this out. Been inactive for 10 years but im coming back and it's a hell of a story.
Good on you, brother. We're glad to have you back. The new you.
@@WARDRADIO I didn't fall due to disbelief. Things began to unfold right in front of me that I wasn't quite ready for. I'll do a podcast with yall, quakoo will love it because it involves the supernatural.
@@SHREKfiona1234you don’t have to convince kwaku… you have to convince me…
Dude get on the come back podcast! Everyone needs to hear peoples journey back to faith and they are so faith affirming
@@DB_Golfer what's the comeback podcast?
I find it strange that people discount reformed Egyptian, when many of us speak, reformed English. Our own language changes all the time and has been for hundreds of years now.
False equivalency fallacy
@@Whiskey.Tango.Actual
A language can change over time shown by the examples of languages changing over time.
You can't get more a perfect equivalent argument than that.
@@zileris you're trying, and good on you. Is the claim that the people of Lehi or Jered spoke Egyptian and over time we got a "reformed" version of it? Because this video implies that reformed Egyptian is an amalgamation of Mayan, Egyptian, English, etc. To have your claim be correct (that this is an equivalent argument), it would require that reformed Egyptian comes from the Egyptian language, just as say modern American English comes from the English spoken a few hundred years ago.
This doesn't even brush on the fact that the English language is exhaustively documented by the secular body whereas not a single neutral or secular body recognizes reformed Egyptian to be a thing.
If it was a real language you would have other examples. Stop lying to yourself. Joe Smith was a serial child abuser.
I find it strange that Mormons are THE BEST at just ignoring anything which would make an objective, logical, intelligent person go, yea, that's false. The power of ignorance is something isn't it.
Let's be clear: if Mormons were forced to face head on the true facts surrounding their religion, not a single one could come out of that coherently defending their religion. That's why the strategy always has been, ignore, ignore, ignore (and pretend a little, make believe time for adults)
English comes from Latin. Latin comes from Greek. Greek comes from Phoenician. Phoenician comes from Egyptian.
So English is Reformed Egyptian and I would bet that the Book of Mormon was written in Phoenician.
Ancient languages only spread because the people who spoke it spread. Based on that fact alone, we can know that Europeans are direct descendants of Egyptians AND ancient Israelites.
If you want to know what Jacob's family looked like as well as Solomon and Jesus Christ, just look at a European.
But we already know this from the descriptions in the Book of Mormon. The Nephites were white, Mary was white (1 Ne 11:13) and Nephi says they looked like the Europeans (1 Ne 13:15).
Phoenicia is just a modern name for Canaan or Samaria which was the land of the northern tribes of Israel. It makes perfect sense that the Brass Plates were written in the same language because this was a Josephite record whose lands were in the north. And it would have been perfectly reasonable that the Nephites simply copied from the Brass Plates into the Book of Mormon and continued in the same language for the rest of it.
You missed out on the similarities between the Algonquin alphabet and the characters of the BOM.
The book isn't new. It was published way back in 2015. The fact that more of our scholars haven't talked about it in depth, even just to make a critique of its flaws, is a real travesty. It is the closest thing to a slam dunk besides the presence of NHM in Saudi Arabia. Jerry Grover even sent it out to a few Egyptologists to get a critique and was basically told he did everything correctly as far as using the Hieratic Lexicons, but it can't be real because they "know" Mormonism is a fraud. Essentially, they said Joseph had to have somehow learned and formulated a coherent mix of hieratic, demotic and Maya-like script with a consistent grammatical layout all on his own....before we knew how to translate any of it. I heard there are Egyptologists that have concerns about Jerry's work, and I'd like to hear them, but I've read the book cover-to-cover and I find it really difficult to find a fatal flaw. I disagree with some of his extrapolations into Mesoamerican symbology and relics, and I personally wouldn't have translated the conjectured Nephite, Lamanite, Mulekite and Gadianton robber glyphs the same, sticking to their descriptive translations instead.
You compare this to the Voynich manuscript, for which no other script or grammar or cypher for any known language exists, and its clear to me that the Caractors document is less likely the be nonsense by a mile.
Agreed
Sorry, it’s still make believe. The book of Abraham is a clear example of fraud. No scholar or really anybody takes it serious in the world.
Oh yes the nhm thing …
The actual name is "nehem" which is hardly analogous to "nahom"
The book of Mormon never explained the precise location of the site meaning you cannot directly attribute "nahom" to "nehem"
The site had been mentioned on many pre 19th century maps, considering smiths father was a an educated teacher, it's likely he had a map or two spare.
Smith could've also likely came up with the name by changing a single letter of the biblical character "Nahum," he did the same with omri and Omni, levi and lehi, He did the same with the Book of Abraham too, elkanah (samuels father) and elkenah (actually the Egyptian god qebahsenuef)
And the meditationsonvogel blogspot I wrote has also not received any critique whatsoever, except from Vogel himself, who went back and forth with me on some of the points but he didn’t address the Egyptology since he’s not an Egyptologist.
A few people, like Blake Ostler and Jeff Lindsay, have been quite supportive of my efforts on this subject, but everyone who has actually studied Egyptology has left me with a promise to eventually get around to considering my arguments and then never considered them or been intellectually curious enough to ask me questions or voice to me concerns. At this point, it seems people just skim rather than really read, then use their crocodile brain to rationalize ignoring, blatantly. So, LDS Egyptologists won’t engage with substance, and everyone else assumes that “if there was something to it, the Egyptologists would be talking about it.” So it’s sort of a tragedy-of-the-commons type situation. I sympathize with Grover. It’s good he’s finally getting honest engagement with his work.
@@LatterDayData I personally try not to fall into that trap. Since Jerry provides his references, you can easily follow his methodology and see if it is legitimate yourself. The veiled laughs every time this is brought up by Bro. Murphy over on "MormonismwiththeMurph", I find don't really grasp the gravity of the work. Few people take the time to read a 400 page book and then also check the references. The lack of attention and persistent "I don't know..." responses from scholars more generally is annoying. It has been 8 years, more than enough time to give substantive and detailed feedback. Even as a pet project to review the the book should have been done by somebody in a related field by now. If it's wrong, it's wrong, but the fact it never comes up when people discuss translation theories in regards to the Book of Mormon is beyond ridiculous.
@@TheYgds if you have time, please look up meditationsandmeaning (dot) blogspot (dot) com/2020/05/meditations-on-vogel.html and let me know what you think of the First Meditation. You seem like a person who may be able to appreciate it. I think it’s up there with NHM, and I’ve checked my facts so many times I’m pretty sure I’ve got everything locked down.
While talking about BoM glyphs, Brad's wearing the Bridge 4 glyph, perfect XD
When I was a teen and first learned of the paper Joseph Smith copied with reformed Egyptian characters, my mind was blown. And my immediate question was, “why has the church not poured recourses into translating this!? This is huge!”
Glad to hear it’s finally happened.
And if I’m not mistaken, this is taken from the first book of Lehi. So it’s our only copy we have translated from that book!!!
Where since then even once has there been another example of so-called reformed Egyptian? How about the papyrus that was clearly the book of the dead falsely interpreted as the book of Abraham? Joe Smith was a serial cho-mo and known fraudster. It takes a lot of cognitive dissonance to believe this perverted nonsense!
He was a child abuser
Because it's BS gibberish. See Dr. Lundwall's debunking of this nonsense. Purely from magic parchment script.
I'm assuming that this episode was filmed before I asked for Jerry Grover to come on the show? You know who else you guys should get into? Margaret Barker. She's not LDS but she has rebuilt the ancient beliefs of 1st temple Israelite cultic religion as well as early Christian beliefs. Fascinating parallels with our religion.
Anyone who isn’t familiar with Margaret and would like to bolster their faith needs to dive into her work. Fascinating stuff, indeed.
I love Dr. Barker's work but she's frightfully busy in England and may be unavailable. When she infrequently appears at Old Testament, temple or Mormon studies symposia in Utah she gets a rock star welcome.
So no confirmation or further proof of this since writing this in 2015? As someone who is struggling with the church this is of ZERO help. Not unlike many other issues...horses, chariots, steel, geography, lack of archaeological proof, and the various other and very long list of stuff.
Not your fault at all but every time someone comes out with this type of confirmation stuff nothing much comes of it. The church stopped putting their endorsement on things since a certain letter scandals (multiple).
I mean it’s the sad downside of academia. We’re used to getting information in a 60 second TikTok without realizing that history books can sometimes be an authors life work.
Brother Taylor LeBlanc, everything you do is based on faith. You don't know anything perfectly nor does anyone else. For all you know we are all just advanced AI bots in an advanced simulation created by a 5th grader on Planet 78X-D4 in Universe 2142-2XK for a school project that got a C+. Further, no one knows what is going to happen next. The physical universe might burp and the Milky Way might just evaporate and we will all be less than an afterthought. Further, you could have all the physical proof your heart desires, and still not know that the Book of Mormon is true. You have all the physical proof to know, for example, that various fictional novels that take place in the present world around you could be true, and yet they aren't. They are just stories that happen to have real world markers.
If you or anyone for that matter is waiting for an authority to validate your faith you have misunderstood the nature of this realm.
It's all a fraud! Study the Bible you don't need absurd mental gymnastics to prove 0.2%. The Bible is again and again proven through archeological records, genetics , and linguistics. All the things the book of Mormon is not.
Start learning about the true Jesus and put your faith in him. He died on a cross so that you may be cleansed. 100% a free gift given through faith and not works. Good luck, friend.
@@rl9802 Brother R L, what if you wrote a fictional story with all sorts of real world references (like a fictional story that takes place in present day NYC), and then buried it in the ground and then it got dug it up 1500 years from now and translated it into a modern language? Would that fictional story of yours somehow be a true account because future archeologists were somehow able to confirm all the real world references you made in your fictional story? Would that fictional story of yours somehow be a true account because future linguists were somehow able to confirm the authenticity of the language in your fictional story?
Likewise, imagine the opposite scenario. What if you wrote a true account but with very few to none real world references, and then buried it in the ground and then it got dug it up 1500 years from now and translated it into a modern language? Would that true account of yours somehow be a fictional story because future archeologists were somehow unable to correlate anything about it with their present findings? Would that true account of yours somehow now be a fictional story because future linguists were somehow unable to correlate anything about it with their present findings?
And, here is the kicker. If tomorrow a whole lineup of archaeological evidence were laid out before you for everything in the Book of Mormon you could possibly hope for, you still wouldn’t know if the content of the Book of Mormon were from God. You still wouldn’t have a conviction. That can only come from the Holy Ghost.
The only way to know that the content of anything is from God, including the Bible and the Book of Mormon, is from God, is by the power of God. The Holy Ghost is the member of the Godhead that is in charge of providing conviction of things of God. The amount or lack of physical evidence doesn't even factor into the equation.
1 Cor 2:10-14: But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God. For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. Which things also we speak, not in the words which man’s wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
1 Cor 12:3: Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.
This is the kind of stuff we seek & enjoy, not b/c we need it to know the restored gospel is true & that JS was a prophet; we already know that by the Spirit. We seek it b/c it’s interesting & it increases our knowledge & understanding & yes, boosts us up. The church isn’t in the business of proving the BoM or any other part of the gspl true, it’s in the business of finding those whom the Lord has prepared to receive it. Once we put ourselves in the mindset of proving it true, (to ppl who won’t listen & will only twist it anyway), we invite pride & contention in. I personally have to be careful not to fall into prideful ways & thinking (as I learn these things) or to fall into using these kinds proofs when sharing the gspl. Of course, If there’s a sincere non-member seeker who asks abt these things, it can be presented in the right spirit… but not as a premise of sharing the gspl… we must be careful to not care more abt being right than abt sharing the love of the Savior.
I’m a convert of 42 yrs. If the missionaries would’ve gone into any of this, it would’ve gone over my head - I didn’t need it. What I needed, along w a knowledge of who I am, where I came from, & why I’m here, was a Savior & an understanding of His Atonement & why I needed a Savior. Trying to prove our beliefs using “proofs” would have just muddied the waters. As I studied the gospel thru the yrs, after having a testimony & baptism, I grew to love the restored gospel b/c of its logic & how it answers questions that are unanswerable in general Christianity. (Why wld God create billions of ppl just to go to hell? And believing He did that, how can you claim He’s an all-loving & merciful God? If He created everything from nothing, why did He create sin & Satan? These, & many more, are questions my Christian friends deal w that the restored gospel answers. While I like this stuff, there are enough “proofs” in the doctrines, the fruits, the miracles & power & organization of the Church, that I don’t need.
Best comment so far!!!!
Thank you my brothers in Christ! Keep this up and spreading truth! ❤🎉
Cardon, August 16th I put out a reading of this with links, but you guys did a waaaay better job! Jerry Grover is awesome I hope you get him on soon!
We don't know that the hill cumorah is in New York? Joseph and Oliver said it was a fact that it was in New York and that it was the location of the destruction of both the Jaredites and Nephites in letter 7 of the Wentworth letters.
Favorite past-time these days: listening to Ward Radio!!! 🎉🎉🥳🥳🥳
"Emily belle Freeman and that dude who buttons his shirt to the top" (David Butler) had me rotfl🤣🤣🤣
Anti Mormon mythbusters😎. You guys are awesome!!
Dang.....@lukev483.
How can we change that tune?🧐
How can we turn that frown upside-down😎😅
I actually agree sacrament is a snoozefest😴. Sometimes it's just the ward you're in. I've been in many and I can say... some of them were straight out of hell with their overly self righteous behavior that dominated the whole ward. But other wards, like the one we're in now are far more animated and entertaining.
As far as one man dying for all the sins of the world... without that we'd have no purpose thus no life, we wouldn't even be here.
I feel like a lot of people suffer depression and don't feel like they fit in.
One way we get through sacrament is making bets to see who cries first and how long it'll take🤣. I know It's strange but I'm fairly obnoxious so it's my nature
@@lukev483if church is extremely boring it's because you're not helping anyone. It also helps to have the spirit and learn from the spirit rather than the speakers. I've had some absolutely powerful sacrament meetings when I take an idea from a speaker and just start pondering it and allow the spirit to shape my ideas and teach me new things. It's honestly mind boggling to hear such a shallow take on such deep and complex ideas. The plan of salvation centers on a plan which allows justice and mercy to be perfected in God. To boil it down to "one guy paying for everyone's sins, I don't like someone taking the blame for my mistakes" is probably the laziest way I've heard that described. Eternal families is an idea centered in the plan of salvation that teaches us that there is a path of divine happiness. It's not just something warm and fuzzy to talk about. It's a path that you can strive towards that is the highest possible path a being can walk to gain happiness/glory. God is simply inviting us to learn about it, practice it, understand, and later perfect it. Divorce often occurs between couples who aren't focused on that path. It's a process that requires real effort and growth and joint effort to overcome obstacles, it's not something that just happens naturally. I've seen couples that have reached a level of union that I know could only have come through living the gospel. Combine that with having kids and building strong bonds with them together....I honestly can't even imagine living in a world where that type of family focus isn't part of my life and that of my family's. What a sad reality and existence. Are you a parent? Everything negative you mentioned about your experience was, sorry to say, 100% your own fault. Maybe your dad could have done better to help you have a different perspective but it sounds like, from your comment, he's in the same boat. I'll just leave you with this, if you have the spirit and a strong sense of love for learning, you can have powerful and fulfilling spiritual experiences every day, especially when you combine it with serving those around you. There's very little else in life that is as emotionally and spiritually rewarding as living the gospel to the fullest. I've tried...in my youth...everything else is pretty fleeting and meaningless.
@lukev483 Well ya found what works for you😊. If you ever decide you want to go back...I can give you some clues on how to make it interesting😅. I'm kind of a clown so being serious isn't my thing😆
Maybe even find a different ward if you decide🤷♀️. There are options
@lukev483 I agree some people become over zealous on some issues while others are off the chart crazy. I'm still a very active member but a very independent one. I usually stand outside the crowd and love it that way. I honestly love the gospel and love that I'm not the end all of everything. I love that there's a higher power so we're not just wasting our time here on earth suffering for no reason. But....I too struggle with church members at times. They're like family.... some you love, others you stay far away from🙈😅. So I get what you're saying😊👌
QUESTION: WHY can your midnight mormon assertions never be backed up my impartial non-mormon scholars?????
YEAH, let's all take lessons on ancient egyptian from a theater major!
I was just listening to a Journal of Discourses of Orson Pratt where he mentions the mounds that n Ohio and upstate New York and how there was a society for treasure hunters and how they found a stone that was like two clamshell halves glued together had Jewish writings inside I think on plates of papyrus. He said he saw the stone container and the contents. This was in the mid to late 1800’s.
34:48 Cardon is a true bro 💯 You can feel his great love for his brother Brad
True dat.
Robert Boylan is the bomb, he can so quickly dismantle his opponents in an argument.
One slight clarification: You don't have to rotate the numbers on the characters sheet to get the full alphabet and numbers 1-9.
I tried it myself.
Reformed Egyptian was explained to me as Egyptian being used to write Hebrew words phonetically using Egyptian.
That was Hugh Nibley's hypothesis as I recall, based on ancient writings that were using Egyptian script the write Hebrew words. As such, all research before Jerry Grover followed that lead when looking at the "Caracters" document. It was fruitless for the most part. In fact, I'm rather surprised at the life span of that hypothesis. Mormon is the one who talks about "reformed egyptian" but it should be obvious that what that meant would be very different to him, being almost 1000 years removed from the Old World, than it would to someone like Nephi. I think Jerry's approach was far more cohesive and unlike the prevailing hypothesis, actually yielded fruit.
You should definitely look at the book by Satan's d Polly Johnson (Translating The Anthon Transcript) - they take the character document (they incorrectly called it the Anthon Transcript, but it is the character document instead) and have compared it to Egyptian, Micmac, and Maori, and matched these old glyphic systems to match these characters on this Joseph Smith document, and translated those characters. It turns out to be from Ether in the Book Of Mormon. You ought to give it a look. I think you would be quite interested.
*WARD RADIO IS #1*
Can we please get a link in the description to Jerry Grover's book?
You can’t buy it anywhere. It’s not available.
17:04 its a Self-Published book and the abstract you're reading from was written by the author, claiming their own book is a "landmark event". The reason the church isn't blasting this from the rooftops is because they know the book of mormon has already been proven to not be historical, and this translation is BS. He is not an expert. A geologist, civil engineer, and "translator" means hobbyist, not an educated expert. He makes no reference to any expertise in the subject.
Source?
Nothing is more Mormon than thinking a civil engineer is a authority on ancient Egyptian writing lol
Awesome! My husband met Jerry and says his findings are amazing.
Of course reformed Egyptian looks like “deformed English”. English characters are descendants of Egyptian characters.
THANK YOU!
Not only that but English speaking people are descendants of Egyptians. Languages only spread when its people spread.
@@fightingfortruth9806 I’ve never seen evidence to demonstrate that anthropologically. But you can have similar or related writing systems without the people or languages being the same. That’s why so many European languages use nearly identical alphabets. It’s the Alphabet itself is what is derived from ancient Egyptian via the paleo Semitic writing system. Hence Alpha-bet (aleph and bet are the first two letters in Semitic writing systems). China and Japan use the same characters for their writing systems but are two distinct people groups.
Check out the video clip from my other post here. Genetic studies have shown that western Europeans are descended from ancient Egyptians. That is not the case for modern Egyptians.
People groups always spread their language when they move. The entire Mediterranean anciently used reformed Egyptian language, otherwise called the Phoenician alphabet, including the Carthaginians. The Danites were prolific sailors and spread all over Europe. That's why you see their name still all over Europe, from the Danube River to Lon"Dan", to Danmark. It goes back even older than that. Iberia, named after the Iber River, comes from the word Eber or Heber,great grandson of Noah.
We are called Indo-Europeans because our people spread all the way from India to Ireland anciently.
Only after the 7th century AD did north Africa really change from the Islamic invaders. Our people were pushed into Europe.
Anyone else find it appropriate that Brad is talking about glyphs while wearing the bridge four glyph on his shirt?
Thanks for discussing this!
Get Jerry on along with Brian Stubbs and his UtoAztecan research. The Book of Mormon is true.
😂😂😂No. Dr. John Lundwall would destroy these two clowns.
A few things I've found fascinating about Egyptian writing. One is that demotic arose in Northern Egypt during the 7th Century BC. Two is that it was a simplified form of hieratic that was eventually called document writing but we don't know what it was called before it became common to use it to write documents. Three is that demotic eventually replaced a competing system in southern Egypt called abnormal hieratic.
Abnormal hieratic did not survive long enough to get a cooler name like document writing or people script (demotic). Is it possible that reformed Egyptian was just a name for a transitional period of the demotic or something similar? Or maybe abnormal is just a bad translation and the competing system should have been called reformed hieratic?
Even if neither of those are possibilities, I still find it fascinating that Egyptian was in the midst of a writing reform the same time the Book of Mormon says Lehi lived.
Joe Smith abused children
Great comment about the meaning of Hebrew "isles". That is the Nephites could be on an "isle" of the sea and not an "island" as we English define it. That statement is true no matter which geography one believes of The Book of Mormon.
The Latin/Roman alphabet (used for English) is literally reformed Egyptian. Demotic Egyptian is not deformed English, English is deformed characters from the Egyptian!
"The Latin alphabet evolved from the visually similar Etruscan alphabet, which evolved from the Cumaean Greek version of the Greek alphabet, which was itself descended from the Phoenician alphabet, which in turn derived from Egyptian hieroglyphs."
👆 (Wikipedia - Latin alphabet)
Demotic came as a cursive form of hieraric, which in turn was a shorthand for the original hieroglyphics.
I literally sent them a message about this last week.
They must have already had it in the books.
There is no way the reformed egyptian exist.
TRUTH:
The Bible has loaned hundred of egyptian word
To me it looks like a complex formula from Einstein's chalkboard.
This was honestly the funniest Cardon has ever been in an episode.
Joe Smith was a serial child abuser. You ought to be ashamed
I cannot find the link for the PDF, did I miss it? If it's not there I'll just Google it
@ 15:26
Faith first.
Supporting evidence second.
Lest we become like those "Jerusalem proves Bible, but where's Zarahemla???" people.
you guys should make an episode about the exmormon alissadgrenfell, please!
Yes, please do Alissa 4:03 Grenfelt. She has desecrated the temple ceremony. She shows videos of actual parts of the temple service taken by disgusting members. She shows the temple clothing and puts it on during her video. She makes fun of everything. Many of the comments are so disgusting. I've sent numerous comments but almost immediately there were a huge number of disgusting negative comments to mine.
I used AI to search for anything about her. Everything that came back was glowing and positive. I pressed the issue and AI Copilot covered up, protected her and stopped the conversation saying it didn't like the direction the discussion was going. I am very suspicious of her entire enterprise. There must be many others involved in supporting this religious persecution, mocking and hate.
Please do something on her and her network!!!!!
I agree that we should make more use of external evidences for the Book of Mormon’s divine authenticity, but only in certain contexts. The surest demonstration of the Book of Mormon’s divine authenticity is not in the archeological or linguistic discoveries that have been made since its initial publication, but in the very words, ideas, and message thereof. I fear that putting the external evidences at the center of our discussion of the Book of Mormon betrays a lack of faith that we have in the internal power of its words to convince others of its divine origin.
That being said, we should not let the external/secular challenges to the Book of Mormon’s authenticity go unanswered. We should make use of external/linguistic evidences primarily insofar as they refute the external claims of inauthenticity. Or at the very least, our discussion and examination of physical or linguistic evidences for the divine authenticity of the Book of Mormon should take place only in the periphery of our faith, not in the center.
The reason you don't is because this is easily debunked. The world that isn't gullible is laughing at you
I loved how Brad and his wife fleshed out and humanized the main antagonists of the first book. It made it really interesting.
Love the Bridge 4 shirt Brad!
Watching Ward Radio counts as scripture study
Heh heh. You've got my permission.
Something I notice about the Nephites and Lamanites glyphs, is the one symbolizing the Nephites is very similar to the one symbolizing God. Like the cross mark is simply lower as if to say they are God's people but he is greater/higher than them. The one saud to represent the Lamanites is in the opposite or opposing form with the lines being parallel rather than perpendicular to each other. I could be wrong. That's simply my own interpretation.
There is only one Cumorah and it’s in NY
Brother Hugh Jones, you might want to read up on The Hill Cumorah section of FAIR. For example:
The Book of Mormon text indicates that the Hill Cumorah in which the Nephite records were hidden is not the same location as the one where Moroni hid his plates
Despite this early "identification" of the Hill Cumorah of the Book of Mormon with the hill in New York, readers who studied the text closely would later conclude that they could not be the same.
The primary text to demonstrate this is Mormon 6:6
6 And it came to pass that when we had gathered in all our people in one to the land of Cumorah, behold I, Mormon, began to be old; and knowing it to be the last struggle of my people, and having been commanded of the Lord that I should not suffer the records which had been handed down by our fathers, which were sacred, to fall into the hands of the Lamanites, (for the Lamanites would destroy them) therefore I made this record out of the plates of Nephi, and hid up in the hill Cumorah all the records which had been entrusted to me by the hand of the Lord, save it were these few plates which I gave unto my son Moroni.
Mormon clearly separates the hill Cumorah from where Moroni buried the plates (the drumlin in Palmyra).
☝️ this.
I think people feel it is a nice gesture of unity to pretend there is a question here still but entertaining the meso delusion is counter productive at this point.
I 🤮 a little in my mouth ever time it comes up.
The "and it came to pass" glyph is the double C glyph with a strikethrough.
This is a good one!
This is so awesome!
When is Brad’s book going to come out on Audible?
“Who doesn’t want a made up language…?” - Mormons
Excellent
Love what’s being shared
Bring a lamanite onto your show
Like who?
@@WARDRADIOyou should bring Enoch or perhaps Moses onto your show. The angel Raphael would do well too
😂😂😂Love it. The racist book was supposedly written to all the Lamanites and the gullible church can't identify a one.
In the grand canyon archeologists found Egyptian artifacts and the American Indians had middle eastern dna The natives known their ancestry came from the middle east
Hmmm...what about Bigfoot?
This episode so far is a good explanation as to why I don't deep dive into supposed "history" and anti stuff. It's insanity.
Hold your horses, fellas! I am intrigued by this, but remember-truth will be established (by the testimony of) two or three witnesses. Those who have ears to hear, let them hear.
Great show, thank you! That'll be cool to get the author on 🙏
Where those documents came from ? What is their origin?
Jacob Hansen's quote was obtained by him from Neal A Maxwell. As to scientific evidence, that is the province of scholarship, not faith. Understanding the epistemology is very important. Whether Jerry Grover's translation is authentic must be based on actual review by Egyptologists. How many such reviews have been done of his work?
So the link in the description... ?
Truth is both logical and spiritual. The truth is the Book of Mormon is what it says it is. It is not a scam. It is time the world accepts it as truth. There is too much truth to it, and evidence to continue to look at it a pseudo scripture.
Some characters of the Mic Mac language are very similar, and some are a dead match as well.
Wow this is great information indeed. Wondered if chiasmic structures were found in the document?
Then I saw it as you were scrolling through.
Noticed if you pause at 26:54-58 page 182-184 in the book mentioned something about it.
Appers that he found at least 2 chiasmus in the reformed Egyptian Caractors Document?
Is that the the way you see it in the book?
That is an amazing discovery
They call some of this writing mirror glyphing which would correspond with Hebrewism or Chiasmus. IMO
We know that Chiasmus is prevelant in the BOM and Hebrew style languages.
Thanks again!
The first two characters on the “Charactors” document are nearly identical to the words “El” and “Yah” in proto-Hebrew (Nahal ‘Avedat, 22:2, 8th to 7th Cent. B.C., The Name of God, James Harris
LOL 😆 I busted a gut right here! This is hilariously awesome!🤣7:42
Brad is such a nerd! He’s even wearing a bridge four shirt!
When are you bozos gonna invite JERRY GROVER??? PLZ??
And Dr. John Lundwall to totally destroy Grovers ignorance on the matter.
it came to pass glyph is the one that has two C shapes next to one another with a strike through line cutting through both of them.
It's impossible to overestimate the gullibility of true believers ... of any religion.
Being pedantic here, Roman characters (more than English (no Thorne here)).
There was a 90 degree rotation to get Greek and Roman.
I thought it was more of a mirror rather than rotation. A side effect from boustrophodron writing in earlier versions of Greek.
@@literatesasquatch There are likely many ways in which various characters evolved. I was referring to a specific evolutionary step, the Phoenician aleph to the Greek alpha.
Do you have a specific example of such a left-right flip?
This was thoroughly debunked by Dr. John Lundwall on the Mormonish podcast. The "caracters" document is logo symbolic / cryptic from a magic world view of Joe the conman Smith.
Cool episode. I've followed a lot of what we have found out about shorthand or business Egyptian. This thing with reversing Egyptian characters and it looks just like English is amazing. It actually shows what may be the root of some English letters. Egyptian? Maybe
A lot of the Book of Mormon takes place in Egypt.
The English Alphabet is reformed Egyptian in fact they actually had the first Alphabet and every Alphabet comes from it
The Book of Mormon literally takes place in Egypt. The Nephites are Ethiopian Jews. They migrate back to Egypt in Helaman 3 and are destroyed according to Jeremiah 44.
Lehi never sailed to America. He circumnavigated Africa in 600 BC and stayed in the Old World.
Ethiopian Jews believe Ethiopia is the Garden of Eden according to Genesis 2:13. That's where Lehi was commanded to go in 1 Nephi 8.
It's an Ethiopian book. It follows all the Ethiopian traditions and myths.
Even the Book of Ether is just the Ethiopian version of Genesis. It's Ethiopians explaining how Israel was settled by Ethiopians.
The Jaredites started in Ethiopia and sailed down the Nile River to Egypt. Then they sailed to Israel. They turned Israel into the land of Milk and Honey because they brought those things from Ethiopia, the Garden of Eden.
The internal consistency is off the charts. Something everyone has sadly missed.
Look at Omer for example. His journey is out of Israel and into Africa, then East to Ethiopia. This is the same journey Lehi takes. Moroni is careful to remind us of the similarities.
When Nephi talks about the "prophets of old" that were cast of Jerusalem. He is talking about Omer.
@@ldsmackem88
@@redfightblue Um, then how did the Book of Mormon get to Upstate New York? That seems a bit odd in conjunction with your hypothesis, doesn't it?
It was probably discovered in Ethiopia by James Bruce in 1700's He brought hundreds of copied manuscripts back to Europe but died after publishing just a few. The remainder of his Ethiopian manuscripts were given to professors to keep, translate and publish.
After publishing the Book of Enoch and the Kebra Nagast, the desire for Ethiopian manuscripts evaporated. They were considered apocryphal and just a corrupt version of religion held by Jews that were separated from the main body in Israel. There were many errors and differences (The Book of Mormon still contains these to this day).
It's impossible to prove but, The Book of Mormon obviously fell into the hands of the professors at Dartmouth. The lectures they were giving reflect the religion in the Book of Mormon and many students began publishing their own works that follow the theme of explaining the Native American Indian as a "lost tribe".
Professor John Smith was Joseph Smiths cousin and Joseph Smith was born across the river. Joseph Smith Sr. often attended lectures at Dartmouth and almost certainly attended Freemason lodge meetings at Dartmouth.
Baptizing the Native American Indian is why Dartmouth was moved to New Hampshire and this is where the idea was born. They were reading a true account of true lost tribes (Ethiopian Jews in the Book of Mormon ie The Nephites) and began applying it to the Native American Indian. They viewed it as a parable they could tell the Native American Indian to explain why they were living so far separated from Christianity. Why have they been born and died without the ability to know Christ? Remember, those that were not baptized, like Alvin Smith, were sent to Hell. Again, this is the stated goal of Dartmouth when it was founded.
It was Joseph Smith that actually published the book with the bold claim that it was written by Ancient Americans instead of Ancient Ethiopians. He believed the Native American Indian would be converted and the ends justified the means.
So, no matter how hard you try and look for the Book of Mormon in America, you will never find it. Jews did not live in Ancient America. The Jews that wrote the Book of Mormon are Ethiopian Jews.
Lehi migrated to Egypt and was rebuked by Jeremiah, read Jeremiah 44. Then he had the Tree of Life Vision that guided him up the Nile to Ethiopia, the Garden of Eden. This is what makes Lehi an Ethiopian Jew. It's a migration that has been happening since at least King Solomon.
Then in Helaman 3, we clearly read about Nephites migrating back to Egypt, where they are destroyed.
Read Jeremiah 44 and Helaman 3 and look for the word "Desolation". Desolation is Egypt. Check the internal maps of the Book of Mormon. You can see Africa, the Nile and Desolation is Egypt (and Israel).
@@Signal_Lost.
Can I get a copy of the anti-mormon rule book you quote from so often?
Cardon's Mental List .....when he is being mental.
@@lukev483 AMEN. Hypocrites to their very core
Cardon can't think his way out of a box.
Good job, all new to me. Just another weapon in my vast arsenal of Book of Mormon evidences the Antis have never heard of.
Believe me mate, we've heard most of them.
@@ThemanyfacesofegoNah, anything beyond 'Joseph believed there were men on the moon!' and you guys get confused.
@@wes2176 I've never seen things more clearly.
@@Themanyfacesofego Sure, that's why you're here.
@@wes2176 If you let your brain just go from a to b, then from b to c, without any interference, appeals to emotion etc you will be fine.
Ok I’m 10 mins in and still waiting for evidence of reformed Egyptian.
Brad, i think it’s interesting that the criticism of the character document is old English. If you read the Book of Enoch Commentary by Michael B Rush on the Germanic tribes and Chauci and begin to dig into Viking history you’ll find fascinating and interesting parallels to the Lost 10 (L10) tribes of Israel and the connection of the Hopi / Ojibwa character comparisons to both ancient Hebrew / Egyptian to the Micmac and the Glotto linguistic evidences of the North American tribes to be irrefutable evidences. Wayne May has shared peer reviewed linguistic evidences. It’s quite eye opening the connection to the Hagoths ships and the connection to Germania and what would be later Ephraimite connection to Anglo/Saxon (Chauci) heritage people that “buried their weapons of war” being a mound building culture as well. Their Hebraic traditions add to the linguistic similarities.
I find it interesting that people are so dogmatic in one viewpoint adopting the views of the academic narrow minded idiots. Why couldn’t there be linguistic drift to Maya or further south to match the time periods.
I’d love to hear your thoughts after you read Michaels Book of Enoch commentary.
NAHOM IS A CALIPHATE NOW?????????? When did this happen Cardon?
If I remember correctly, and if you watched our videos as vigorously as you hated Mormonism, and if your memory were as dependable as your vitriol, you’d remember Jim Hee mentioning that the last time the area was documented on a map (in the 1700-1800’s I believe) it was documented as a caliphate. I don’t remember exactly which video this was in but it was in there…
@@madmanmanx You mean Jim Gee??? He’s a big time Mormon Apologist. I’m surprised that he didn’t label NHM the 9th Wonder of The World!! Lol
@@madmanmanx BTW, I don’t hate Mormonism. Technically I’m still one. What I hate is BS’rs who constantly try to pound square pegs into round holes and mislabel it proof.
Actually we do know that the hill cumorah is that exact hill cumorah. Read Oliver Cowdery’s Letter 7.
Paul Osborne is the utmost expert on all things Book of Abraham.
Again, all one needs to do is go to the Ramses III exhibit and look at all the engraved gold plates and Ramses floor to ceiling (plus ceiling) gold engraved walls with a mix of classic hieroglyphic and (what I like to call) Egyptian shorthand, possibly related to the reformed Egyptian.
And yet still too textually dense to come up with anything like the fraudulent mound builder myth making book of mormon.
So if there is Mayan influence, does that negate the Heartland model of the BoM?
All the arguments I see against reformed Egyptian seem to come from people who don’t understand language, or how it evolves
The more I learn about language in general, the less worried I am about reformed Egyptian
Brother Geothro, yep. And, that pretty much goes for all such arguments. Lazy learners that don't understand much of anything, especially history and how it works, and how to apply logic to an argument.
That should have said Stan and Polly Johnson.....not Satan !
Demotic NUMBERS????? vs The English 1-0 in the Tanner's List????????????
Brother Kris Murphy, why trust the Tanners? Why trust you? Where is your glory that we should listen to you? You have nothing to offer, as usual, just stone throwing by an antimo/exmo that cannot move on with their lives. What can you offer to eternal beings that chose Christ from before the Creation and that are here in this fallen realm abiding in Christ as part of their eternal progression?
@@lukev483 Brother Luke, because the Holy Ghost has witnessed to me that he is the living prophet of Jesus Christ right now.
@@lukev483 Brother Luke, honestly, in the several times it has happened, I wasn't even thinking about it. That is, I never really doubted that President Nelson was called to be Christ's living prophet. As to how I know it is the Holy Ghost vs Satan, well, that is much like how Moses knew I suppose. There is no glory in the influence that comes from Team Lucy.
I know the Holy Ghost because I experience time and time again as I study and ponder the scriptures, as I pray, as I listen to GC talks, etc. Sure, it often comes when I am fasting and praying for a certain thing, but it also often comes when I am not even expecting it, when I really didn't have a question on my mind, when I am not actively seeking it. When I experience the Holy Ghost, there is usually a greater sense of who I am, additional insights of certain precepts that I had never considered before. When I am experiencing the Holy Ghost, there is a deep clarity and profound feeling of meekness and gratitude and peace that comes over me. I find myself telling Father, “It is enough. I see clearly now.” It is actually hard to describe with mortal words, but clarity is pretty close. Everything just fits and comes together. It is satori, or enlightenment. Plus, it typically melts away any evil desires such as those of the natural man. The tendency of self-centeredness, etc. The desire to do good only and no more evil is enhanced. The desire to have others to also come and partake of the same sweet fruit of the Spirit is increased. The desire to lift and serve and to do whatever God wants in any way He wants is increased. The desire to have my eye single to the glory of God is increased. And on and on. The physical emotions and feelings that often come with it are secondary and result due to the Holy Spirit piercing through my physical shell. In other words, the spiritual inputs overwhelm the physical inputs.
You NeEd to have Wayne May on here.
Check out the Anthon transcript and the Micmaq.
I agree with Cardon on this one.
D&C 128:20
And again, what do we hear? Glad tidings from Cumorah! Moroni, an angel from heaven, declaring the fulfilment of the prophets-the book to be revealed. A voice of the Lord in the wilderness of Fayette, Seneca county, declaring the three witnesses to bear record of the book!
We do no where Cumorah is. It's in New York, just as it says here.
Oh no, you do not get to say that Joseph Smith translated an actual glyph that just happened to be accidentally put on the Kinderhook plates, and make the claim you did earlier saying that he could’ve translated the book of Mormon from a Ramen noodles pack. Either the translation method matters, or it’s completely inspired. You can’t have it both ways.
It’s all the “did Joseph smith see the words on the rock in the hat, or did he get a feeling for the words?” all over again.
Because he writes horses despite no horses in old America-during the alleged BOM times-and writes curelom and cumom instead of picking an existing word that’s “close enough.” Which is it?
A for effort, Braden, A for effort.
Make sure to leave some room for faith, boss.
> Which is it?
It's whatever the _Ministry of Truth_ says it is.
Brother Braden Sorensen, not sure how much translation experience you have, but I have been at it for over 30 years. Your assumptions about translation do not match my personal experience. There are many ways to skin a cat, as they say, many ways. I may use multiple techniques within just a few words of translation. I haven't had the experience of Joseph Smith, that is to translate by the gift and power of God, but I can imagine that it too can be multifaceted.
Gee, you must have missed the 2018 research that noted pre-Columbian horses.
And you do realize that Joseph made a comment that one character on the Kinderhook plates looked like one of the Book of Abraham characters, but then never made a translation of the Kinderhook plates? Just a big nothingburger of the antichrist tripe.
Possibly the reason they aren’t quick to announce stuff like this is because of the white salamander stuff
You mean the salamander forgery that the Church let sit there until it was proven or disproven?
Nah. Mostly because it's debunked already. See Dr. Lundwall destroyed this silliness in Mormonish podcast part 4.
Book of Mormon Central does make a lot of mistakes in geology history, archaeology and religion. For instance, the geography of the book contradict what profits have said in favor of their allegedly archaeological discoveries, claiming that it actually happened in Central America instead of North America.
Brother Daniel Mauricio, prophets and others talk and write about a lot of things without intending it to be anything more than their own opinion or assumption or present understanding. Just because a person is a prophet doesn't mean that they are constantly fasting and praying to receive revelation about everything they say or write. They put their pants on one leg as a time like the rest of us. Think of prophets and apostles as more like coaches on Team Zion. The Father is the owner, Jesus is the GM, the prophets and apostles are the coaching staff. They aren't perfect, but the Father and the Son are okay with that. The Godhead could do everything. They don't need to use prophets and apostles. And yet, they do. And, they say things like, "whether by my own voice or the voice of my servants, it is the same." So, that should give all of us pause. They are willing to work through the weakness of men to confound the so-called smart and strong (there is no such thing, ironically enough as none of us could even continue breathing if God didn’t allow it). We need to be careful that we aren't clinging to unfounded notions about our leaders.
Prophets, just like any one else, are known to have had strong opinions about things that turn out later to be incorrect, that are not part of our core doctrine, but their opinions only. They aren't always inspired in everything they say, and we should not expect them to be. Also, I don't think God has revealed to anyone the actual BofM locations. I think even Joseph Smith didn't know the actual locations either, but was making assumptions, just like other early church members did. Some prophets, such as Joseph Fielding Smith, had strong opinions that the hemispherical model was correct and that evolution was false, but these were his opinions only, and he held them strongly. Many church members, especially those with strong scientific backgrounds, now see both of these views as incorrect. Joseph Fielding Smith was still a wonderful man and a good prophet, but he was not always correct in his opinions. That actually makes him more relatable, to me :)
@@lukev483 - I don't think polygamy was a mistake. However, I think the priesthood restriction was a mistake on the part of Brigham Young. I actually don't have a problem with polygamy, if it is done 'right', and it is certainly not, and should not be, for everyone.
So challenging prophets is the first defense you come up with for meso America... interesting.
@@lukev483 - that’s why I said it is not for everyone. I don’t think it’s right to outlaw polygamy for example. Not that I would ever want to practice it, but that those who want to practice it in a way that respects the free will of all involved should be allowed to- not ‘Warren Jeffs style’. Peter Santenello did an excellent couple of videos recently on this topic, where he interviewed some folks in AZ who practice it. They were doing it in what I would call a 'good' way.. they condemned the way Warren Jeffs did it. They seemed like good people and they respect the wishes of all involved. Sure it would be a difficult practice, and has its own set of challenges, and I believe that's why only a small percentage of LDS were called to practice it in the 1800's. It helped them to grow in numbers during that early period, which was crucial, so I can see the wisdom behind it actually, at that time. I don't think it should be reinstated in the LDS church, as I think it would no longer necessarily be a beneficial thing in our day and age, but I'm open minded in this regard.
FWIW, "and it came to pass" is typically rendered as just "さて (sate)" in the Japanese version of the Book of Mormon so it wouldn't be surprising to learn that it is just a single character or so in Reformed Egyptian as "sate" can be rendered as just one kanji (such as "偖").
It is interesting how the "and it came to pass" notion is not all that cumbersome in many languages. It is just particularly unwieldy in English.
I love
this video
your discord link is broken.
Why would Mayan effect reformed Egyptian? The Mayan's were thousands of miles away from the Nephites... Cumorah is right where Joseph Smith, the angel Moroni and the church say it is. Oh...now I understand this info is coming from someone stuck in the Thomas B Marsh Meso America "theories" long since debunked ...
The Logo graphic type of writing style were ideas are encoded in images reminds me of Moroni bemoans the disconnect between their writing system and spoken word...
23 And I said unto him: Lord, the Gentiles will mock at these things, because of our weakness in writing;...thou hast not made us mighty in writing; for thou hast made all this people that they could speak much, because of the Holy Ghost which thou hast given them;
24 And thou hast made us that we could write but little, because of the awkwardness of our hands. Behold, thou hast not made us mighty in writing like unto the brother of Jared, for thou madest him that the things which he wrote were mighty even as thou art, unto the overpowering of man to read them.
25 Thou hast also made our words powerful and great, even that we cannot write them; wherefore, when we write we behold our weakness, and stumble because of the placing of our words; and I fear lest the Gentiles shall mock at our words.
26 ... the Lord spake unto me, saying: Fools mock, but they shall mourn; and my grace is sufficient for the meek, that they shall take no advantage of your weakness;
Moroni is bemoaning that he can't just put the brother of Jareds words into the Record because in Ether 4;5 "Wherefore the Lord hath commanded me to write them; and I have written them. And he commanded me that I should seal them up;..."
he was commanded to write a summary of the 24 plates from theJaredit record but not the whole thing The lord didn't let him do ctrl+c ctrl+v to the jaredite record and this is what he is complaining to the Lord about in ether 12 he is complaining that the Jaredite record was much easier to read and more eloquent than his writing system and he was afraid that gentile Academics would mock him and his writing style. But fools Mock but they will mourn.
you need interview .Mark Hoffman about antin letter and egyot writings 1977 gold foil edition
Do we have any evidence for redormed Egyptian outside of joseph smith and the BOM?
Brother Emerson Peacock, that is what this video was about. But, if you want more, I take crypto. Starting bid is 1000BTC.
And the answer is No. Not that would fit 500+ pages of text on paper thin gold tumbaga "plates?".😂😂😂
@@lrsvalentine Yea that’s kinda what I was going for. A lot of their “evidence” or “debunking” episodes have 0 evidence to back up their claim. Any time they bring up “valid sources” it’s someone on church payroll. Reformed Egyptian is a work of fiction by all reasonable standards and if it wasn’t why is there no evidence of it outside of Mormonism? Just silly.
@@VegaPunk1337 Well said.