I’ve been a writer and storyteller since I was 14, and I was raised LDS (served a mission, etc.) In my late 30s, I finally got a degree in writing. After listening to the previous episodes in this lecture series, I decided to try writing a piece of pseudepigrapha for class. I took an idea that had been rolling around in my head for 10 years, and in ONE WEEK, I wrote a piece that was 3,500 words long in (imitation) King James English. The draft was messy to my taste, but there was hardly any modern turns of phrase. I used the Book of Enoch as my reference, and the early books of the Bible. When I workshopped the piece with my classmates, they were floored. A few of them who avidly studied Chaucer, etc. marveled how I would have such a good grasp on older English dialect. …and that was a rough draft. Imagine what I, a largely self-taught storyteller and avid reader of scripture, could have done in the 1800s. When I was “true blue,” I believed nothing like the BoM could have been “created” by Joseph Smith. But I proved that wrong personally. I wish I could say modern folks don’t fall prey to charlatans anymore, but they do. I think this is a time-proven pattern of human behavior… to have gurus and followers. Who knows why, but some are drawn to become gurus, and some are drawn to follow them. I think, this will always be with us.
That sounds like a really interesting project. I'm glad you're out there using writing craft as a form of inquiry, that's powerful. I would point out that although there have always been leader-follower dynamics, there have also always been people thinking independently, and even traditions where great teachers are seen as just normal people. They tend not to gain the notoriety of the more controlling versions, but they are out there.
As a member of the Oneida Nation, I was always aghast that there is a hill called Oneidah in the BOM. I studied SO MUCH on my mission to try and find out more about a possible connection between my ancestry and the BOM. Since leaving the church, the obvious connection is that my people are from Upstate New York and there are towns and remnants of my ancestors everywhere. Discovering that JS appropriated the name of my people for his fictional book and then re-wrote their history has been one of the greatest pains for me in my discovery about the church and its true history. There is nothing redeeming about this racist book. There is nothing miraculous about its origins or its author. Thanks to MS, LDS Discussions, and Nemo for your work in bringing all of this to light and giving it a large platform to be shouted from the rooftops.
@@laurenjohns7276 Oh, get over yourself. Do you find Oneida tableware painful and offensive? Does the Oneida tribe actually have an official complaint about this? This is ridiculous virtue signaling. I doubt you are even a member of the tribe because no courageous Native American would be reduced to tears over someone naming a hill after their tribe.
@@Dunning-Kruger-effect Any native appropriation is offense. Table wear isn't painful because it was not presented to me as my ancestral history, or as God's truth. You can assume whatever you want about me, but it doesn't change the fact that Joseph Smith appropriated my tribe's name for his racist story and then claimed it to be from God. Because of this claim my ancestors rejected their native heritage and culture for that which the church presented them. You can paint all Natives as "courageous" and as people who wouldn't "be reduced to tears", but Natives aren't a monolith; We are diverse in our attitudes, practices, and beliefs. Once again, I don't think the Mormon Stories Podcast page is the place for you if you are willing to mock other's pain that has come because of the LDS Church and Joseph Smith.
If you spent two years lying to yourself, and two years lying to strangers. Who's to say you aren't lying some more, now? Or are we supposed to assume you are enlightened because you have joined the horde of critics. Or maybe you never had a testimony, and you just played along to get along. Eventually your scam ran its course and petered out. But why blame the Church for your own deceitfulness. Truth is in the spirit, not the trappings. Is there logic in a ghost impregnating a virgin who gave birth to a God who appropriated your hope?
I'm a student of the Occult for many many years and am very familiar with the practices of societies like the freemasons and after having watched a hidden camera footage showing a Mormon ritual I was shocked at how much Joseph Smith took from them...I knew he was a freemason but I had no idea how much he took from them and incorporated into Mormon Rituals
I loaned my copy of the original b of m to a member and she gave it back and said that she felt that the spirit told her not to read it. She went on to say that she felt that it detracted from her testimony and therefore refused to continue reading it. You can or at least could buy it at Deseret book which is where I bought my copy so it must be a true and correct copy of the original. It reads like it was written by a middle school student who had ditched most of his classes in english.
Tbh much of the modern OT reads much the same way. First chapter of Jeremiah, every sentence begins with "and" or "but" and reads like a couple giant sentences if punctuation is removed.
About the name "Lemuel", it should also be noted that Joseph Smith's family actually rented their home from a man named Lemuel Durfee. Lemuel Durfee was a neighbor of Martin Harris. The historical record indicates that Lemuel Durfee was a benefactor of the Smiths, having purchased their home and land when Joseph Smith, Sr. was unable to make payments on the farm in 1823. After acquiring the property, Lemuel Durfee made it possible for the Smiths to stay on as renters, which they did until 1830. Sad for Lemuel D. that Joseph Smith gave his name to one of the villains of the Book of Mormon. But possibly, in the eyes of a youngster like Joseph Smith, Jr., the "landlord" figure, to whom the family had to pay money in order to stay in "their" home, could possibly have looked like a villain of sorts.
1 Nephi 2 - "Lemuel: O that thou mightest be like unto this valley, firm and steadfast, and immovable in keeping the commandments of the Lord!" If he were to insert this name from personal experience, why put emphasis on these specific pleadings to Laman and Lemuel? I'll just have to ask Joseph when I get to Mormon heaven... oh wait, I guess I'll never know.
@@LDSDiscussions Definitely. There are many that are clearly pulled in straight from Joseph's immediate environment/milieu. There's his brother Samuel (which is also obviously a biblical name too) as just one more example. Some require a little bit more conjecture, but not much. For example, Josiah was a name that pops up frequently in Joseph's life, particularly in the time period leading up to and overlapping the Book of Mormon project. Josiah Stowell (sometimes spelled as "Stoal") is the most prominent of these. As some scholars have suggested, when Joseph would be trying to come up with names for his stories, his internal "editor" would likely kick in to try to keep things from being too blatant. The name Josiah would probably present itself to him as a candidate for a Book of Mormon character's name, but, hey, everyone connected to the project knows Josiah Stowell. Hmmm... How abouts we just swap out the "J" for an "M" (and we all know how much the Book of Mormon loves names that start with "M")? Yep, that's the ticket. "Mosiah" is a great name and nobody will ever guess that it started out in Joe's head as "Josiah". So Joe's internal editor has come up with the one-letter-swap technique for making up new names. How about going phonetic, but with different spellings to throw people off the track. Who else might be a candidate? How about Emma Hale. Let's just read her name in the order of family name and then given name. "Hale, Emma." Spelling is still too obvious. How about Hel Ama? I don't know.... The internal editor still feels unsure. Let's just tack an "n" on that. "Helama(n)". While we're being inspired by Emma's name, the name "Harmony" keeps wanting to join in the fun because that's where beautiful Emma hails from and where a lot of this Book of Mormon project started (and of course Mosiah Stowell...oops...Josiah Stowell...was a principal reason for Joe going to the area of Harmony in the first place.) So "Harmony" is a big name in Joe's world. But again the internal editor doesn't like the idea of just putting the word into the BoM as is. But it will accept a phonetically similar word, like, say "Himni" maybe? Certainly, a lot of the above is conjecture and probably cannot be proven to an absolute certainty, since it involves speculation about what was going on in Joseph Smith's thought processes. But it does seem quite certain that if he's making up names and drawing inspiration from his surroundings, some form of the above process likely was in play, involving prominent names in his life presenting themselves to him as possibilities, followed by various types of alterations to disguise things a bit. The above ideas about the possible psychological processes that may have been involved in Joseph Smith's Book of Mormon name-creation strategies are largely drawn from the article "Psychological Tests for the Authorship of the Book of Mormon" by Walter Franklin Prince (published in 1917 in the American Journal of Psychology). The first time I read it, my initial reaction was that it was just a "bunch of fancy guesswork" that didn't really mean anything. But Prince's hypotheses and examples started to be more persuasive the longer I mulled them over. (Other "hits" include Prince's conjecture that "Master Mahan" (of Pearl of Great Price fame) is simply an example of one of Joe's simple letter-swap ("s" for "h") name creations. The original term that had to be changed was "Master Mason" (and Master Mahan was the "master of a great secret"). Prince then goes on to show that Joe did it again with the name Mahonri, which is just "Masonry" again.
@@bonojennett I think it's mainly just a case of Joseph trying to think of names to give Book of Mormon characters, places, etc., and not so much that he was always projecting into the Book of Mormon or onto the relevant characters the personal experiences associated with the relevant names in his own life. So in this case, Lemuel could just be a convenient name to use, but would not necessarily have any other connection to Joseph's experience with any of the real-world Lemuels that he was aware of. The apologetic argument is that Joseph Smith could not have made up all the names used in the Book of Mormon, so the only explanation (according to the apologists) is that the Book of Mormon can only be from God. But in reality it's quite easy to explain how Joseph could have come up with all of the names used based on what he was exposed to in his life. But the names were just elements of the story telling. The stories about the BoM characters given those names would not need to be closely associated with the real-world people who had those names.
I'm glad to see the younger generation willing to take on the task of fitting the BofM into 19th-century American culture. The Mound Builder Myth thrived because it reflected the white colonists' view of the Indians as destroyers of a more civilized people much like themselves. It justified their treatment of the Indians. Ethan Smith and other ten tribe theorist were trying to save the Indians by linking them to Bible prophecy about the restoration of Israel in the last days, which was also a goal of the BofM.
1:00:00 let's not forget Daniel C. Peterson tried to pass off that Joseph never could have known "Alma" was a semitic masculine name - yet, there were multiple men named Alma during the time where Joseph grew up, including Alma L. Fuller (born in 1816) who apparently joined the church and followed the saints to Utah. When approached about these things (according to RFM in their Mormonism Live episode), Dan said something along the lines of, "Well we don't KNOW that Joseph came across or knew of any of these men named Alma!" These are the games he plays.
I am a non-Mormon but I am extremely interested in Mormon history, particularly the first few dozen years. It is, i firmly believe, a very important aspect of not only American history, but also of philosophy and the development of modern Christianity. Your discussions are just about the most interesting thing I can imagine spending an hour with, almost every day. I can't thank you enough. I am beginning to set up quite a good library. Your suggestions on books to study are invaluable. I love all the people you bring in to the discussions. Particularly women.
As a ‘NeverMo’, I may not believe Joseph Smith is a prophet, but what I *am* starting to believe is that, had he lived in more recent times, he could have been one hell of a Dungeon Master for a homebrew Dungeons and Dragons campaign 😂 Coming up with places and characters on the fly, narrating stories for hours on end, pulling together multiple pop culture and real world influences into his worldbuilding…Sounds like a pretty typical DM tbh
Excellent episode and series! The balance of content and commentary is just right. John's clarifications and Nemo's comments are very helpful! I appreciate Mike's level headed and compassionate approach. And of course his accessible and well researched information!
4 Nephi 6 “And thus did the thirty and eighth year pass away, and also the thirty and ninth, and forty and first, and the forty and second, yea, even until forty and nine years had passed away, and also the fifty and first, and the fifty and second; yea, and even until fifty and nine years had passed away.” This seems like a bit of “filler” to me.
This series is so helpful! I love when Nemo is a co host! Mike's information is great and I appreciate his empathy for those who a painfully deconstructing. Johns clarifications and summaries are really conducive to my understanding.
Yes. That’s why Mike and John are a good mix. Mike is empathetic and very soft with the delivery of the material and then John chimes in and just slaughters JS & the Church in a few sentences. It’s like watching two kids play with blocks. One kid carefully puts the blocks together and builds a nice tower and then the other kid comes out of no where and destroys everything in a few seconds. Only for them to pick up the blocks and build it up again. It’s just great. Lol
Thank you John and everyone else involved in this series. This is why The Book of Mormon belongs on your fantasy fiction shelf next to the Screwtape letters and not any where near any history books.
Thank you so much for this. Remember, the reports are that he was made a Master Mason on sight ( or something like that), which means he had the ability to memorize very lengthy and complicated material almost instantly. I began going through the Masonic rites, and I was pulling my hair out just trying to get this stuff right. And if he was able to do that almost immediately, then he had an extraordinary memory, kind of like the lady that was on the show Taxi, Marilyn Henner. She talks about in his demonstrated how she can't forget anything that happens to her. It is immediately memorized like a diary in her head. It's funny that the church used to brag about these abilities that Joseph had to show how smart he was, and little did they know that that was just adding evidence for him having created The Book of Mormon
I remember Shawn McCraney’s Book of Morm-onion which was really helpful 10 years ago. This analysis takes that even further with more evidence. I love this series. Thank you for all the hard work.
Some observations: 1. The official LDS audio version of the BoM is a few minutes shy of twenty-nine hours. Listening only thirty minutes a day would allow you to finish the book *six times* in one year. Pretty sad... 2. Cross grafting was practiced on apple trees in Joseph's time so families could have just one tree, but it would still produce fruit. Apples need two different trees (for cross pollination) to make fruit. Apple propagating was here for over a hundred years before the time of Joseph. I'm sure reading that process about olive trees just made him see a correlation. (Dating myself here: While trying to remember this part of Zenos, I actually retrieved my physical BoM from the shelf, opened to Zenos, turned to the relevant chapter, and then remembered I could just look it up online. Ha!) 3. Names are just crazy. My grandfather's middle name was Mecrias. I had a great-uncle whose name was Crinus. (Macarius was a church father from ~300 CE. Macrinus was a Roman emperor, who only ruled ONE YEAR. How my simple, uneducated, German-speaking great-grandparents from the mid-1800s would've known this boggles my mind.) Laura Ingalls' husband was named Almanzo, and his family lore says it was a name used by an ancestor who fought in the Crusades against a noble Muslim named Al-Manzoor.
Correction: While Moroni appears on maps among many other names, it is not connected to Captain Kidd. Nor does it appear in a book about Kidd. There is no reason that Moroni would stand out to JS or anyone interested in pirates. Moroni happens to have been an Italian personal name. I agree with Mike that Comoro/Moroni stands as caution to those who use NHM (Nahom) as evidence for the BofM.
Excellent podcast. I always heard that the BofM was written "for our time." Clearly, (NOW I see it), it was written specifically for and about JS's time. If it was really for these current latter days, it would speak about issues relevant to our time, like race, lbgtq, feminism, equality, abortion, technology, scientific advancements, modes of travel, societal problems, modern types of warfare, etc. What IS in the BofM only extends as far as Joseph's time period.
I've been out of the believer space for almost 20 years, but in successively watching each of these episodes now, I'm astounded at the continual "Holy sh*t" moments I'm having! On the one hand, I'm kicking myself for not seeing what is suddenly so glaringly obvious, while on the other hand realizing the overwhelming volume of information that was conveniently never disclosed and that would certainly have altered my beliefs had I been told, or known enough to ask questions. In short, this series is groundbreaking for me, even two decades out of the Church. Thank you!
I know it could be put down as a coincidence; but I always found the fact that there’s a country called Comoros (spelt Camora on an 1808 map) with a capital city called Moroni a little unsettling when I used to be a member.
This allegory is supposed to have been written by a Jewish prophet in the Old World before Lehi's departure and offers a panoramic view of Israel's spiritual history, including the Nephites in America. Essentially, it elaborates Lehi's allegory of the olive tree (cf. 1 Ne. 10:12 14; 15:12 16), which in turn was inspired by Romans 11:11 24. Smith follows Paul's error of grafting branches from a wild olive tree into a cultivated tree. Nevertheless, Smith transforms Paul's simple analogy into an elaborate literary chimera. The first thing one notices about Zenos' allegory is the apparent anomalous setting of olive trees in "vineyards," which was forbidden by Jewish law (Deut. 22:9) even though the rule was not enforced by New Testament times (Lk. 13:6). The allegory describes the husbandry of the olive trees pruning, grafting, fertilization in terms that would have been familiar to those working apple orchards,60 such as the Smiths had in Norwich, Vermont, and on their farm in Manchester, New York. -- Dan Vogel, The Making of a Prophet, 454.
I remember trying to read this part of the BOM several times and simply giving up, because I didn’t understand it, and because it was mind-numbingly boring. My first problem with it was wondering whether he was talking about olives or grapes. Couldn’t figure out why the farmer was growing olives in a vineyard.
The confusion about vinyards and olive trees...in biblical hebrew grove of olive trees, is called "a vinyard". This siunds absurd, but the problem is with the translation. The hebrew word is "kerem" which means something like a tightly planted grove arrenged in rows. Used by itself a kerem means a vinyard by default. However, a kerem is also used to refer to an olive grove, and then the hebrew will read "kerem zayit" to differentiate it from a regular vinyard. One example can be found in judges 15:4-5. I have no idea why this information is useful for you guys, but it is what it is.
Several of the Book of Mormon "prophets" made a point of telling their future readers that they could not write much on the plates due to limited space, a limited supply of golden plates (ore supply problems and so on) and engraving difficulties. But for some reason, they felt a need to fill up page after page with totally unnecessary "and it came to pass" and "for behold" verbiage along with pointless digressions and qualifications and corrections, such as adding the parenthetical "speaking of things to come as though they had already come" correction after pointlessly putting Jesus into the past tense (when it would have been clearer and simpler to simply say "if Christ does not come into this world" in the first place). And then there are the parts where the plate writer/engraver refers to many precious and wonderful things that cannot be written (or words to that effect), leaving one to wonder why it was so often the case that the really wonderful stuff could not be written, while so much dumb stuff absolutely had to be written. Basically, my attempts at finding depth and meaning in the Book of Mormon failed miserably and, for the most part, my experience with it can be summarized by the following impression of what at least 75% of it sounds like: "For I Beheld that, yeah, verily, verily, it came to pass or rather will come to pass, speaking of things that came as though they are yet to come, that due to limitations with regard to that space on the plates that would be sufficient for writing upon them the many precious and wonderful things that were preached and taught, as well as due to the great difficulty in procuring plates and ore sufficient to the purpose of preparing plates to be written upon or more to the point enough plates and space on which the precious and wonderful things could be written had there been sufficient plates for our needs, behold that I, Moron, being named after my father, Moron, who was King of the Land of Moron, found myself moved by the spirit to spend all of my days writing tiresome prose about nothing other than how there was not enough space upon which to write the really important things and it came to pass that after I had filled up a goodly portion of the plates with useless nonsense, I found that behold I had indeed become enfeebled and knew that my days of engraving upon the plates had come to an end wherefore, behold, it came to pass that I did entrust the plates to the care and stewardship of my son, Droolsalot, who has taken them whither I do not know, or rather will take them whither I do not know, wherefore in the former instance I spoke of things to come as though they had already come and in the latter instance I speak of them as being things to come for it will come to pass that such things will come to pass." (Book of Moron and Droolsalot: Chapter 3, verse 2) (This is from the medium-sized plates, which were larger than the small plates, but smaller than the larger plates.)
Even if the olive tree allegory wasn't plagiarized/heavily inspired by other texts it wouldn't be impressive that JS knows how to take care of woody plants. I know all the "botanical principles and horticultural practises" mentioned in the allegory because my mom had a tiny suburban apple orchard. JS grew up on a farm. He would've done all of that with their apple trees. All woody plants are cared for much in the same way.
Interesting presentation. When I was a young man, both Jack Welch and Tad Callister were in my ward. Tad was two years older than me and Jack was a year older. They both came from prominent families where the fathers were both high-powered Los Angeles area attorneys. Both of them became successful attorneys as well. So when you run into them in a discussion, they will certainly have their arguments prepared and go to bat for the side they are representing. A good lawyer can make a turd look like a rose to the jury, so keep that in mind when examining the arguments they present. Ultimately, the jury will decide.
Something I love about Nemo's guest appearances is how good he is at deconstructing arguments - interpreting what someone is trying to do with their argument, whether the person is cognizant of their angle or not. It really helps me to see why I grew up believing what I believed, versus what I (don't) believe now. I have no idea how to properly put this into words, but I'll just say that it continues to blow my mind whenever you bring up the very simple idea that JS was the author of the BoM, not the translator. My whole time growing up in the church, I was taught that the odd wording or "mistakes" in the BoM were the "original" author correcting themselves, especially Mormon or Moroni correcting himself, and that this was further proof of the BoM's veracity. The fact that it never even once crossed my mind (until I was about 18-19) that it could've simply been JS messing up his oral dictation is a bit embarrassing for me, but also proves Nemo and John's point that it's powerful when you raise a child reading and believing something and form all kinds of strong emotions around the child's experiences with something like the BoM. What I WILL credit my younger self with is that I never understood all the praise for JS about the olive trees. Maybe I was a weird kid, but I read the Bible (Old and New Testament) cover to cover a couple of times before I graduated from high school. Talk of grafting and olive trees isn't unique to the BoM. Did my Sunday school teachers simply not realize that? It's possible I guess, lol. I just learned about the people named Laman and Lemuel in JS's life from this video, and even after years of church inactivity, hearing it still felt like a blow. All those teachers and devotional speakers throughout my life insisting on how there's no way JS could've come up with such unusual names that have RECOGNIZABLE ROOTS IN MODERN LANGUAGE - because they were names of JS's friends, neighbors, peers, and contemporaries! Or he changed one letter here or there. I don't know if it's ignorant or dishonest on the parts of those teachers and devotional speakers, but it any case, I'm sitting here feeling both baffled and furious. I hugely appreciate Mike at the end talking about how he's able to talk about problems with JS and the church without feeling angry. I'm really glad he's been able to reach that point, because I'm frustrated with myself that I still haven't gotten there myself. There are days when I feel like I can think about the church, JS, and the BoM with nothing, or with disinterest, but there are definitely still more days where I feel angry and hurt even years down the line. It's a good thing that nobody has talked with me face-to-face in any kind of confrontational way about the church, because I'm certain I would quickly become too angry to have a useful conversation. But watching these videos has helped me accept how I was raised and accept the choices I made that I regret now (BYU, mission, seminary), and so eventually, I think I'll be able to be utterly dispassionate towards the church and any conversations I have about it.
When Nemo brought up the number of times "It came to pass" is used, it brought to mind how Mark Twain said in his book Roughing It how he thought the BOM was boring and poorly written.( My words, not his) Thanks to the Backyard Professor for introducing Mark Twain's book in one of his podcasts.
Yes. I think it was Mark Twain who said that if you took out all the "and it came to pass" wording, the Book of Mormon would become just a pamphlet. (He also found humor in phrases like "exceeding sore".)
One thing that may not have been mentioned is that Oliver Cowdrey had to repeat to Joseph all the words that were written down and thus this gave Joseph more time to think about his next words while Oliver was reading what he wrote.
i dunno amy i wouldn't be so quick to throw in with these guys there falling short of the mark its a planned scheme to draw attention but its weak sauce , its seems better to reserve thought until more pudding(substance) is presented these guys at best is rifting off each other even tho it obvious preplanned all these issues like the joseph hunted for treasure or there is wording from king james version or even there conjecture of how the beginning rolled out of the church and translation but that started with at 14 years old so he see visions and being told its buried now all that's being rolled up into some huge conspiracy seem more like a waist of time leading to there site getting clicks which is fine just don't believe evey thing you hear and im not saying that your are . all i'm saying is Joseph had a out he was in the saddle headed west he felt as tho that wasn't his best move turned his horse around at that moment he knew what was going to happen . and all that is asked for is read and pray find the answer in your heart that seems like a fair shake
According to my Stake President as I was discussing my issues with him I was told that his mother is not a reliable source as she was old and probably had confused memories of Joseph's childhood and the process. So as usual if the source contradicts the narrative then you have to eliminate and discredit the source.
John you are 💯% right this is building like crazy and I feel like the plots thickened and the suspense is just building in every episode. I went and started the series from the beginning a few weeks ago and this is just great. Anyone watching if you haven’t seen the previous episodes GO BACK it is soooo worth it especially if you are a lifelong member. Just think we’ve been indoctrinated for centuries in the church you owe it to yourself to go back to the beginning and get the part of the story you haven’t been told. If you ever served a mission you NEED to learn the omitted portions of the discussions. This is not only what we’ve been taught but also what we’ve taught others on the mission.
Amazing research and presentation, you guys! Growing up in the church, I was so sure that the BoM had to be true because of 'who could write a book like that?' :-) You all did an amazing job researching, putting it all together to make sense, summarising, and discuss. Although the videos are all long (and need to be), it was all very interesting until the end.
I practice Street Epistemology (found you via Anthony Magnabosco), and I talk with LDS missionaries whenever they come through my area. This has been really useful as a background for me, appreciate the work you have put in to get this information together in an easy to follow way.
Brilliant, once again. To add to what Nemo said about apologists explaining away BoM problems as those that happen in a vacuum, Joseph Smith himself attempted to cover his pre-polygamist debonair derriere by including the following in the title page: "And now, if there are faults they are the mistakes of men; wherefore, condemn not the things of God, that ye may be found spotless at the judgment-seat of Christ." The same happens, of course, with our leaders today (presentism, speaking as a prophet vs. just as a man, never speak ill of the Lord's anointed, and other fallacies).
I would love to see this kind analysis of every other christian religion. I bet these same scholars if they did an honest examination that not a religion would be left standing.
Not a single one. People can single out Mormonism all they want, but the truth is, every religion has similar roots. Only age gives them prestige. Cognitive dissonance is, unfortunately, very strong with many ex-Mormons.
Thank you. Watching from Alaska. Brilliant. I learn so much about apologetics as a system, unrelated to the mormon issues, when listening to those deep dives. My sincerest gratitude to you all.
Didn't Joseph have a curtain between himself and his scribes? And had a cover over the so-called plates? So if that's the case, could he have not placed some manuscripts under the cover of the plates and pulled them out after the scribe was behind the curtain? So he could have written down stuff previously to dictate to the scribe.
I can't remember which of these LDS Discussions episodes Mike pointed out that the Liahona was never mentioned by name in the Book of Mormon text except in Alma 37. I wanted to point out that that was somewhat hidden by the fact that Liahona was used in the chapter heading of 1 Ne 16, so it's likely most people (including me) never noticed the text itself didn't use its name when Nephi supposedly wrote about it. What a great observation! That would have been really weird that Nephi never mentioned the Liahona by name if the book hadn't been made up and Joseph Smith couldn't remember what he called it/ how he spelled it in the "lost" 116 pages so he was careful not to name it by name until he was almost finished with the entire Book of Mormon in case the "lost" pages turned up.
Why didn't they use the parable of the cacao or coffee plantations or any plants that would have been native to and used by the Nephites? That would have actually made sense to and have been better understood by the people of that time. Olives were not introduced to the America's until after Columbus.
Hi, I really enjoyed this entire episode. It has opened my mind SO MUCH, and provided so much additional information I had not considered about the Book of Mormon's composition! Is there a link to the entire series so that I can watch them in order?
Even more fantastic is the fact that this church that he started in 1830 has become today the best organization in the world for teaching principles of happiness and community do families and children. Anybody who like I has traveled to 50 different countries and gone to church in all of them in Europe Asia South America India the only place I haven't been is Africa.. Knows this fact.
Thank you for providing such an interesting series. I think the bottom line is that JS was planning a grift on the people around him. He could not have any idea how far this initial grift would spread and he never planned for this book, or the later ones, to be examined critically. I truly believe this spin out of control and he started believing his grift and started making truly evil decisions to keep himself in power. There were probably good people who got caught up in the love of power as well. Very sad.
Might be helpful to have an episode on what events or problems where not addressed but that came up for church later on. Including no mention of the civil war, 2 world wars, or precautions for other issues such as plagues or pandemics.
On the overview pages on the website I have a 'three part' section on revelation and that's covered there, but we'll definitely be hitting that in future episodes!
One of the things that always nagged at me as being odd and suspicious about the whole "seer stone" mythology was how often Joseph Smith (or someone close to Joseph Smith) raised the possibility of the seer stone itself being a source of deception. For example, there's the Emma Smith quote mentioned at around 58:00. Then there's the quote from David Whitmer about the failed attempt to sell the Book of Mormon copyright in Canada: "[A]nd behold the following revelation came through the stone: ‘Some revelations are of God; and some revelations are of man: and some revelations are of the devil.’ So we see that the revelation to go to Toronto and sell the copy-right was not of God, but was of the devil or of the heart of man." (David Whitmer- An Address to All Believers in Christ, P.31) Then there's the incident where Hiram Page is rebuked for getting revelations from Satan through a seer stone, as memorialized in the Doctrine and Covenants: "And again, thou shalt take thy brother, Hiram Page, between him and thee alone, and tell him that those things which he hath written from that stone are not of me and that Satan deceiveth him;" (Doctrine and Covenants, Section 28 : 11 .) With all that in mind, thinking about the Emma quote doesn't it seem particularly bizarre that Joseph Smith is acting like he's confused and wondering whether the rock is deceiving him and, instead of relying on the Holy Ghost or whatever, he does his own "fact-checking" by asking Emma whether there were walls around Jerusalem? Once Emma confirms it, Joseph Smith pretends like all is good and back on track, now that it appears again that the rock can be trusted...for now. Tricksy rock! Nasty rock lieses about the presshus!
32:21 Mark Twain noted this pattern. He noticed that any time the Book of Mormon started to become a little too contemporary, there were injections of King James English to bring things back in line. Twain utterly pulled apart the BoM, and the most famous of his criticisms was calling the BoM "chloroform in print."
The thing towards the beginning of this video that I find most entertaining to consider is if you apply the "ten pages a day" translating "speed" with how efficient the symbols are supposed to be during the translation. When you do the math, this would be something like boasting Joseph Smith got through 3-4 symbols a day. What an impeccable translation speed, indeed.
It took him almost 90 days to "translate" the lost 116 pages but then is able to "translate" 500 plus pages in 85 + or - days. Why did it take so long to do the first "translation". Why did the miracle of speed not work with the first draft.
well there was stop and go from being able to translate behaviours that need corrected they had to locate a reasonable place a couple times all the while people were trying to do bad things to joseph and crew. doing the right thing is tuff some time , i wouldn't thrown in with these guys misconstewers ill intent fortified with click bate
I just started laughing when the slide about Laman and Lemuel came up. That's just too funny. I'm working through these episodes and that, plus the Charles Anthon list are honestly bigger smoking guns than anything else I've heard thus far for me. It's too funny.
I don't dispute what you're saying but if you know anything about the church like I do and seen it operating all of the world you see that it is the best organization on the planet for helping families and children in a community that teaches good principles for happiness and success.. I mean you guys are good examples of it yourselves. And there are many others on TH-cam like yourself who come out of the LDS background and gained a lot from it.
I'm not sure if anyone commented on this, but something I noticed a while back, is the word Neophyte, defined as a new convert to a religion. a novice in a religious order, or a newly ordained priest. It is a term found once in the new testament 1 timothy 3:6
for me the trigger for questioning the lds church was the hymn praise to the man... I grew up with it just being another inspired song. it wasn't until my twenties after my mission that, hearing the song in english again, I started to realize that we were just worshipping joseph in song. But we were also taught that God is jealous so He wouldn't be okay with that. Then I started questioning why we did every aspect. The more I questioned in my mind the more I realized that I was not comfortable with how the church operates or what it teaches. It wasnt until I started to look at it objectively that I could see just how messed up it was.
Does the podcast discuss the coming of Christ to Ancient America and stories that existed around the 1800s about that? I'd be interested in hearing about that also.
A nice Mormon gave a copy of the Book of Mormon to my father to read. She asked about his thoughts (after he read it). He said..."the word that came to mind was...PREPOSTEROUS!" As a reader/believer of the KJV Bible, I have to agree with my father about the BOM. There are SOOO many ways to shoot down this book and the fraud who wrote it.
I was challenged recently. By a couple of young Mormon missionaries. To take their brochure and Book of Mormon. To read and see how I felt about their religion. I didn't know anything about their ways and beliefs. I'm a new born Christian and have been for some time. I read the bible and study the scripture. So I took their brochure and bible. Because I was interested to see why so many people follow the Mormon Religion. After reading their brochure on what happens when we pass on. I was 1st confused on their 3 tiers of heaven. I had never heard of that. And it's some thing I've never read in the bible. So that was strange. Then I read on how after death. They believe you still have a choice for salvation. And that was a big red flag for me. Again totally opposite of what I believe and have been taught in church. So after reading the Brochure. I didnt even get into the Book of Mormon. Because I had to understand who and how their bible was created. And after many hours of research. I was shocked to learn what kind of man this Joseph Smith was. He want a good God filled human being. And I wont get into all the details. But my Lord. Who in their right mind. Could take anything this man said as truth and from God. After splitting his own church a few times because of his actions. And being arrested for his choices and behavior. Going out side his marriage. Then being killed by a angry mob. Not due to his works following Jesus. But because people had enough of this guy. After learning all that and so much more information about this man. I couldnt even look into a so called spiritual Text he created. It would all be false scripture. And the Bible already warns us of that. So to me Joseph Smith is no more then a old school pioneer for people like David Corrish I believe his name was. Just doing what ever they wanted to folks that would drink his Kool-aid. Its heart breaking to know so many people dont even seem to question the man that created the whole idea of this religion and its bible. But I will pray for these 2 young men that made this challenge to me. Because even though they believe in Jesus. They road they travel was created by a con man. And I for sure will be giving them back their literature. But it was interested to research and learn about their beliefs and religion. But no way would I have ever fell for it. God bless all and lets pray for members of this church. Like so many I have seen. Wake up to this con and walk straight to Christ for he and he alone can save us. Not a church or religion..
Spalding only provides an example of a fictitious history about the Indians and Mound Builders. It had nothing directly to do with JS and the Book of Mormon.
In reference to Lehi's vision and Joseph Smith's father's dream, I seem to remember from Rough Stone Rolling that a theme in Joseph Smith's life was redeeming his father. After the financial difficulties his family went through and some drama about not living in more expensive frame style house, Smith Jr wanted to prove to the world his father's status. Smith Sr was ordained as a patriarch and didn't he have other important roles in getting priesthood? Anyway what I'm saying is that using an elaborated version of his father's vision in the BOM might also be a means of redeeming his father?
Fantastic series. This podcast in particular is epic. Nemo is a quiet giant. So many of us have done our own research and touched many of the edges as well as the entirety of the themes brought up regarding how the BofM was written. For sure the book is a conglomeration of other sources compiled. Joseph was a compiler and organizer and plagiarist. The research done by the main man here is splendidly organized and thorough. This well thought out premises is something that all should hear. I am wondering if we need to be so very sensitive with the feelings of TBMs. So what if there is tension? There is tension anyway. Tension gives way to frustration. This is only natural. Like a Stoic, we want to find ways that are both productive and valuable in an street, epistemology way. And yet, when one considers the lying, deceit and aggressive judgement coming from the religious system; maybe we should not be so apologetic. I attended a meeting one evening when a brilliant young BYU student showed up obviously emotionally unstable. After the meeting as I spoke with him he indicated that he was homosexual and that he had just come from his grandfathers home. His grandfather had said to him, "Even though I know you are going to Hell, I still love you." That statement based on the mythical doctrines like the BofM had put him into a suicidal state. I told him to forget about his grandfather and that I would fill that space for him if he wanted. I told him how valuable and necessary he was to himself and all of us. When this kind of emotional abuse is being promoted by corrupt doctrines, maybe it is ok to get in ones face with the truth without apology. Each person will decide for themself.
Reportedly, as long as Joseph Smith was actually alive, he was referring to the angel he dealt with and received instruction from as being NEPHI, and not MORONI. Lots of changes, refinements, revisions, tune-ups, etc., throughout the years to end up with what we have / see today.
What gets me is not who wrote it, I don’t really care! What gets me is how you get anybody to read! That I do care about! I can understand the Bible, and not feel stupid! But when I attempted to read Smith’s book I felt like the stupidest mfer ever! I am stupid but not that damn stupid! I wish someone would come up with an abridged version that was easy to understand and then maybe just maybe for giggles I may read it while on the toilet!
Here's a 3- Paragraph Abridged Version: And it came to pass that a couple of families decided to leave Jerusalem because the family patriarch heard voices in his head telling him that Jerusalem would be destroyed. One of his sons ("Nephi") was a superhero who murdered a man to steal some brass plates that contained some Old Testament stuff on it. The superhero son then built a cruise ship in the desert. The two intermarried families took the cruise ship to the ocean, launched it and rode it nicely across the Indian Ocean and the Pacific Ocean, eventually arriving somewhere in the western hemisphere. (After arriving, they bred and multiplied so rapidly that all the rabbits in the world felt ashamed, took note and started encouraging each other to reproduce harder and faster. "We need to breed like Book of Mormon people" was the catchphrase heard everywhere in rabbit world. ) Soon the entire western hemisphere was occupied by millions of the most inbred people ever. But these people divided into two separate peoples. The descendants of the superhero son and relatives loyal to him became the "Nephites" and they were white and delightsome. The descendants of the superhero's inferior and ill-tempered brothers ("Laman" and "Lemuel") became the "Lamanites". They were cursed with very dark skin so that the Lamanites and Nephites would not be easily confused as to who was who. The division was necessary to create conflict and drama because that's what makes a book sell well. Long story short, they fought a lot. They reenacted some Bible stories. Jesus came and killed a whole bunch of them because he thought they had a bad attitude. Eventually, the white and delightsome Nephites became just as evil or more evil than the dark and loathsome Lamanites, but their skin color was not affected for some reason. Apparently, the skin color = degree of righteousness thing was just a one-time deal and God didn't care to update things. Then the Nephites were all wiped out by the Lamanites in a huge battle that involved hundreds of thousands of people and was centered around a hill called the "Hill Cumorah" that was not far from Joseph Smith's farm. But because no evidence of any such battle has ever been found, Mormon scholars think that the battle must have been at a different "Hill Cumorah". The last Nephite buried a record of the whole history of things that happened. The record was a stack of gold plates on which the "prophets" of the Book of Mormon inscribed things. It was buried in the Hill Cumorah that was close to Joseph's house. Fast forward to the early 19th century. Joseph Smith, who pretended to locate buried treasure with a magic rock, started getting into difficulties because he never actually found any treasure and his excuses ("it slipped deeper underground") stopped working. Fortunately, his magic rock converted to religion and, along with an angel named Macaroni, helped Joseph Smith find the golden plates in the Hill Cumorah. Nobody could actually see them, except for Joseph, because they were protected by a zap-o-matic strike-u-dedd security feature. But Joe's friends could pretend to see them with "spiritual eyes" and therefore be witnesses. Joe would describe them and if the friend could picture what Joe was describing in his mind, he was having a "vision" of them. Good enuff to be a witness. Joe used the same rock to translate the golden plates, without the golden plates even having to be in the same room. And the world has been blessed with the Book of Mormon ever since then.
I was raised a Roman Catholic, but a family that my parents knew were Mormon and we went to the Hill cumorah pageant several times. I am not surprised as the Mormon church was formed in New York State where the different Christian movements such as the Methodists and the Baptists took over the Burned Over Dustrict. The oneidas, the Shakers, and the Quakers also g formed a lot of different societies. Joseph Smith just picked up a lot of ideas from society.
The problem is once you look at how few names are brought along in the Book of Mormon it's not that hard. Once you know you can abandon the names after a few uses it becomes easy to come up with more names as you go. If he was calling those names back throughout the BoM that would be truly impressive, but most are used in a small section and forgotten forever.
Something I don’t understand about the incident of the lost 116 pages - when he started over, I believe I’ve heard that he was using another set of plates. Is that right? Where the heck did another set of plates come from?
We cover this in a lot of detail in the 116 pages episode, but it's an issue that gets really problematic when you look at the development of the "small plates" along with the production of the Book of Mormon. He did claim another set of plates, but it's clear that the idea of a second set of plates is something he came up with after the fact to try and explain where the replacement material would come from.
@@LDSDiscussions Thanks. I guess what I’m asking is whether the small plates were included with others he was given by Moroni, or if they just providentially showed up on his desk one day? Surely there’s some origin story? I apologize for my ignorance - I’m a never Mormon atheist who is a huge fan. I believe that what you do is so valuable, and sheds a great deal of light on religions far beyond Mormonism. But lacking a Mormon education, I occasionally get a little confused, and this second set of plates just bugs me. Was Joseph Smith supposed to be running full speed down a rough country road at night and knocking down attackers while carrying TWO sets of heavy plates? Or did he receive them on another occasion that I somehow missed hearing about?
I might be off the mark, but my take away is that this book has been edited and refined over the past 100 years. I think it would be uncomfortable for a lot of Mormons to see the text in a more original, less polished/edited condition.
What we were saying is that the original Book of Mormon was full of run on sentences, grammatical errors, and folksy language that would real really poorly today. It would not look very miraculous to read it in the original form especially given that there have also been some significant changes to it.
Around 1:30 into video, names in the BoM as evidence of its historicity are discussed. Here is some of what I have found researching the claim that names in the BoM support its authenticity: Names found within the BoM- “Apologists note that many of the proper names in the Book of Mormon are Hebrew names found in the Bible (e.g. Lehi, Lemuel, Ammon, and Enos). Tvedtnes, Gee, & Roper argue that there are a number of Hebrew names found in the Book of Mormon which do not appear in the Bible but occur in other ancient sources. Examples of these are Aha, Ammonihah, Chemish, Hagoth, Himni, Isabel, Jarom, Josh, Luram, Mathoni, Mathonihah, Muloki, and Sam.[30] Hugh Nibley also claims that many non-biblical names found in the Book of Mormon resemble words from ancient Hebrew (e.g. Sariah, Jarom, and Josh).[68] Some, like Alma, are attested Hebrew names. Milton Hunter and Thomas Ferguson allege that Hebraic fragments and roots appear discernible in Nephite / Mulekite names such as ‘Zarahemla’.[69] These names are often interpreted as evidence in favor of the Book of Mormon, since Joseph Smith's knowledge of Hebrew was limited to names found in the Bible.[30] Critics have pointed out that many of the names in the Book of Mormon that are not drawn from the King James Bible are found in the local environment around Palmyra, New York and would have been known to Smith.[70][71][72] Richard Packham has pointed out that several Biblical Hebrew names, including Aaron,[73] Ephraim,[74] and Levi[75] are listed as Jaredites in the Book of Ether. He argues that these are anachronisms, since the Jaredites are supposed to have originated from the time of the Tower of Babel, and did not speak Hebrew.[22]]” (Linguistics and the Book of Mormon - en-academic) “In addition, Packham has pointed out that while ‘Isabel’ is derived from the ancient Hebrew Elizabeth, the name Isabel did not exist until 12th century Spain, which he argues is evidence against the authenticity of the Book of Mormon.[19]” (Linguistics and the Book of Mormon - Wikipedia) “The Book of Mormon contains over 300 proper names. Many LDS assume that this is evidence that Joseph Smith could not have made up the Book of Mormon. However, when we examine the list of names at the end of the Book of Mormon we notice that 141 of the names are taken from the Bible. For example, the Book of Mormon has Abraham, Ammon, Bethabara, Esrom, Ether, Gomorrah, Ishmael, Jared, Jonas, Judea, Lemuel, Madmenah, Nazareth, Pathros, Pekah, Rama, Shinar, Sinim and Zebulun. The Book of Mormon also uses the Greek words Alpha and Omega. Many names not found in the Bible seem to be made up by re-arranging various syllables or changing the ending of Bible names. For example, the Bible speaks of Abinadab, the Book of Mormon mentions Abinadi and Abinadom.. Smith's book also uses the Biblical Aminadab and a modified Aminodi. The Bible mentions Kish, the Book of Mormon has Akish and Kishcumen. The Bible has Gimzo, the Book of Mormon speaks of Gimgimno. Besides using the Biblical name Helam, Smith's book expands it to Helaman. The Book of Mormon uses the Biblical name of Antipas and builds on it to form these Book of Mormon names: Anti-Nephi-Lehi, Antiomno, Antion, Antionah, Antionum, Antiparah and Antipus. Some seem to be simply different spellings. Melech in the Bible becomes Melek in the Book of Mormon. In like manner, Nahum becomes Nahom. More names are created by adding such endings as "hah." The Book of Mormon has the names Nephi and Nephihah; Moroni and Moronihah; Ammon and Ammonihah; Mathoni and Mathonihah. Some names seem to be just extensions of the same Book of Mormon word. For example, Antion seems to be the base for Antionah, Antionum and Antiomno. Book of Mormon Shim is expanded to Shimnilon. Corianton is slightly changed to make the additional names of Coriantor, Coriantum and Coriantumr. Smith's book uses the Biblical word Gideon and shortens it to Gid, then expands it to Giddianhi, Giddonah, Gidgiddonah and Gidgiddoni. Riplah seems to be the base for Riplakish and Ripliancum.” (Possible Sources For Book of Mormon Names - UTLM) Of the more than 300 names found within the BoM, most can be accounted for through the Bible and other contemporary sources. There seems to be 13 Hebrew names found in the Book of Mormon which do not appear in the Bible but occur in other ancient sources. Of the 13 names, “Isabel” did not exist until 12th century Spain, making its inclusion in the BoM anachronistic. Of the 12 remaining names, most could be accounted for as derivatives of similar names found in the Bible or other contemporary 1800s sources. For example: Aha ~ Ahab (I Kings 16:28) Ammonihah ~ Ammon (Genesis 19:38) Chemish ~ Chemosh (Numbers 21:29) Hagoth ~ Haggith (2 Samuel 3:4) Himni ~ Shimhi (1 Chronicles 8:21) Isabel = Anachronistic name in the BoM ~ Jezebel (1 Kings 16:31) Jarom ~ Joram (2 Samuel 8:10) Josh ~ Joshua (Exodus 17:9) Luram ~ Ludim (Genesis 10:13) Muloki ~ Amalek (Genesis 36:12) Sam ~ Samuel (1 Samuel 1:20) For the remaining two, it is possible that they are a combination of two separate names: Mathew + Moroni ~ Mathoni Mathew + Moroni + “hah” ~ Mathonihah I find it interesting that of the 300+ names found within the BoM that are supposed to support its authenticity, the focus seems to be on about 13. It doesn’t appear to matter to the apologists that 99.5+% of the names can be accounted for. They want to focus on the less than 0.5% remaining names, as if it is the critic’s responsibility to account for and/or disprove 100% of an apologist’s claim. The burden is not on the critic’s to disprove any truth claim made by the LDS Church, its members, or its apologists. The burden of proof is on the person making the truth claim. And, in my opinion, if someone is leaning on less than 0.5% of a claim being evidence that the claim is true, that is not a very strong position. I guess when someone needs something to be true, less than 0.5% is good enough. Is the above explanation for the 12 remaining names proof that Joseph Smith derived those names? No. But, it is one possible explanation that can account for those names. So, do the names in the BoM really provide strong evidence supporting BoM historicity? Not in my opinion. Especially when also considering all the other evidence against BoM historicity.
"powerful witness of Jesus Christ" does not at all describe the BOM. It is just the reflection of a 19th century mental opinion about Jesus, prior to modern scholarship on the beginning of Christianity. And it definitely is not a "translation".
The other thing here is that not only have I experienced the church in I don't know 40 or 50 different countries and I see that it is the greatest organization teaching happiness and principles of a good life. And not denying the facts that you are explaining here I had an experience just like Joseph Smith described in his first vision. Call it a a near-death experience or whatever you want. But it is a fact and I have been going to church ever since I was 23 every Sunday .. I have seen what the church does and anybody that is familiar with it knows this to be true..
I think there's definitely a lot of misdirection with magic and the seer stone and treasure digging is absolutely a form of magic... just hard to say how or what that misdirection was since no one goes into that detail with the accounts.
I'm enjoying these older podcasts. Is there a discussion on Joseph Smith meaning to start a religion. OR did he just want to sell a book and other people looking for a "leader" made him one. Then he got caught up in the excitement and power of that?
I’ve been a writer and storyteller since I was 14, and I was raised LDS (served a mission, etc.) In my late 30s, I finally got a degree in writing. After listening to the previous episodes in this lecture series, I decided to try writing a piece of pseudepigrapha for class. I took an idea that had been rolling around in my head for 10 years, and in ONE WEEK, I wrote a piece that was 3,500 words long in (imitation) King James English. The draft was messy to my taste, but there was hardly any modern turns of phrase. I used the Book of Enoch as my reference, and the early books of the Bible. When I workshopped the piece with my classmates, they were floored. A few of them who avidly studied Chaucer, etc. marveled how I would have such a good grasp on older English dialect. …and that was a rough draft. Imagine what I, a largely self-taught storyteller and avid reader of scripture, could have done in the 1800s.
When I was “true blue,” I believed nothing like the BoM could have been “created” by Joseph Smith. But I proved that wrong personally. I wish I could say modern folks don’t fall prey to charlatans anymore, but they do. I think this is a time-proven pattern of human behavior… to have gurus and followers. Who knows why, but some are drawn to become gurus, and some are drawn to follow them. I think, this will always be with us.
I’d love to read what you wrote! Is it for sale or available somewhere online?
That sounds like a really interesting project. I'm glad you're out there using writing craft as a form of inquiry, that's powerful.
I would point out that although there have always been leader-follower dynamics, there have also always been people thinking independently, and even traditions where great teachers are seen as just normal people. They tend not to gain the notoriety of the more controlling versions, but they are out there.
This!
Oh please. You’re a joke.
I'd love to read it! Is there anywhere I can go to access it?
As a member of the Oneida Nation, I was always aghast that there is a hill called Oneidah in the BOM. I studied SO MUCH on my mission to try and find out more about a possible connection between my ancestry and the BOM. Since leaving the church, the obvious connection is that my people are from Upstate New York and there are towns and remnants of my ancestors everywhere. Discovering that JS appropriated the name of my people for his fictional book and then re-wrote their history has been one of the greatest pains for me in my discovery about the church and its true history. There is nothing redeeming about this racist book. There is nothing miraculous about its origins or its author. Thanks to MS, LDS Discussions, and Nemo for your work in bringing all of this to light and giving it a large platform to be shouted from the rooftops.
Lol
@@Dunning-Kruger-effect I'm not sure why my pain is funny to you, but this probably isn't the space for you.
@@laurenjohns7276 Oh, get over yourself. Do you find Oneida tableware painful and offensive? Does the Oneida tribe actually have an official complaint about this?
This is ridiculous virtue signaling. I doubt you are even a member of the tribe because no courageous Native American would be reduced to tears over someone naming a hill after their tribe.
@@Dunning-Kruger-effect Any native appropriation is offense. Table wear isn't painful because it was not presented to me as my ancestral history, or as God's truth. You can assume whatever you want about me, but it doesn't change the fact that Joseph Smith appropriated my tribe's name for his racist story and then claimed it to be from God. Because of this claim my ancestors rejected their native heritage and culture for that which the church presented them. You can paint all Natives as "courageous" and as people who wouldn't "be reduced to tears", but Natives aren't a monolith; We are diverse in our attitudes, practices, and beliefs. Once again, I don't think the Mormon Stories Podcast page is the place for you if you are willing to mock other's pain that has come because of the LDS Church and Joseph Smith.
If you spent two years lying to yourself, and two years lying to strangers. Who's to say you aren't lying some more, now? Or are we supposed to assume you are enlightened because you have joined the horde of critics. Or maybe you never had a testimony, and you just played along to get along. Eventually your scam ran its course and petered out. But why blame the Church for your own deceitfulness. Truth is in the spirit, not the trappings. Is there logic in a ghost impregnating a virgin who gave birth to a God who appropriated your hope?
I'm a student of the Occult for many many years and am very familiar with the practices of societies like the freemasons and after having watched a hidden camera footage showing a Mormon ritual I was shocked at how much Joseph Smith took from them...I knew he was a freemason but I had no idea how much he took from them and incorporated into Mormon Rituals
I loaned my copy of the original b of m to a member and she gave it back and said that she felt that the spirit told her not to read it. She went on to say that she felt that it detracted from her testimony and therefore refused to continue reading it. You can or at least could buy it at Deseret book which is where I bought my copy so it must be a true and correct copy of the original. It reads like it was written by a middle school student who had ditched most of his classes in english.
Tbh much of the modern OT reads much the same way. First chapter of Jeremiah, every sentence begins with "and" or "but" and reads like a couple giant sentences if punctuation is removed.
About the name "Lemuel", it should also be noted that Joseph Smith's family actually rented their home from a man named Lemuel Durfee. Lemuel Durfee was a neighbor of Martin Harris. The historical record indicates that Lemuel Durfee was a benefactor of the Smiths, having purchased their home and land when Joseph Smith, Sr. was unable to make payments on the farm in 1823. After acquiring the property, Lemuel Durfee made it possible for the Smiths to stay on as renters, which they did until 1830. Sad for Lemuel D. that Joseph Smith gave his name to one of the villains of the Book of Mormon. But possibly, in the eyes of a youngster like Joseph Smith, Jr., the "landlord" figure, to whom the family had to pay money in order to stay in "their" home, could possibly have looked like a villain of sorts.
Yep! I meant to put that in there too because isn't it amazing how many names have connections to Joseph's personal experiences?
1 Nephi 2 - "Lemuel: O that thou mightest be like unto this valley, firm and steadfast, and immovable in keeping the commandments of the Lord!" If he were to insert this name from personal experience, why put emphasis on these specific pleadings to Laman and Lemuel? I'll just have to ask Joseph when I get to Mormon heaven... oh wait, I guess I'll never know.
@@LDSDiscussions Definitely. There are many that are clearly pulled in straight from Joseph's immediate environment/milieu. There's his brother Samuel (which is also obviously a biblical name too) as just one more example.
Some require a little bit more conjecture, but not much.
For example, Josiah was a name that pops up frequently in Joseph's life, particularly in the time period leading up to and overlapping the Book of Mormon project. Josiah Stowell (sometimes spelled as "Stoal") is the most prominent of these. As some scholars have suggested, when Joseph would be trying to come up with names for his stories, his internal "editor" would likely kick in to try to keep things from being too blatant. The name Josiah would probably present itself to him as a candidate for a Book of Mormon character's name, but, hey, everyone connected to the project knows Josiah Stowell. Hmmm... How abouts we just swap out the "J" for an "M" (and we all know how much the Book of Mormon loves names that start with "M")? Yep, that's the ticket. "Mosiah" is a great name and nobody will ever guess that it started out in Joe's head as "Josiah".
So Joe's internal editor has come up with the one-letter-swap technique for making up new names. How about going phonetic, but with different spellings to throw people off the track. Who else might be a candidate? How about Emma Hale. Let's just read her name in the order of family name and then given name. "Hale, Emma." Spelling is still too obvious. How about Hel Ama? I don't know.... The internal editor still feels unsure. Let's just tack an "n" on that. "Helama(n)". While we're being inspired by Emma's name, the name "Harmony" keeps wanting to join in the fun because that's where beautiful Emma hails from and where a lot of this Book of Mormon project started (and of course Mosiah Stowell...oops...Josiah Stowell...was a principal reason for Joe going to the area of Harmony in the first place.) So "Harmony" is a big name in Joe's world. But again the internal editor doesn't like the idea of just putting the word into the BoM as is. But it will accept a phonetically similar word, like, say "Himni" maybe?
Certainly, a lot of the above is conjecture and probably cannot be proven to an absolute certainty, since it involves speculation about what was going on in Joseph Smith's thought processes. But it does seem quite certain that if he's making up names and drawing inspiration from his surroundings, some form of the above process likely was in play, involving prominent names in his life presenting themselves to him as possibilities, followed by various types of alterations to disguise things a bit.
The above ideas about the possible psychological processes that may have been involved in Joseph Smith's Book of Mormon name-creation strategies are largely drawn from the article "Psychological Tests for the Authorship of the Book of Mormon" by Walter Franklin Prince (published in 1917 in the American Journal of Psychology). The first time I read it, my initial reaction was that it was just a "bunch of fancy guesswork" that didn't really mean anything. But Prince's hypotheses and examples started to be more persuasive the longer I mulled them over. (Other "hits" include Prince's conjecture that "Master Mahan" (of Pearl of Great Price fame) is simply an example of one of Joe's simple letter-swap ("s" for "h") name creations. The original term that had to be changed was "Master Mason" (and Master Mahan was the "master of a great secret"). Prince then goes on to show that Joe did it again with the name Mahonri, which is just "Masonry" again.
@@bonojennett I think it's mainly just a case of Joseph trying to think of names to give Book of Mormon characters, places, etc., and not so much that he was always projecting into the Book of Mormon or onto the relevant characters the personal experiences associated with the relevant names in his own life. So in this case, Lemuel could just be a convenient name to use, but would not necessarily have any other connection to Joseph's experience with any of the real-world Lemuels that he was aware of.
The apologetic argument is that Joseph Smith could not have made up all the names used in the Book of Mormon, so the only explanation (according to the apologists) is that the Book of Mormon can only be from God. But in reality it's quite easy to explain how Joseph could have come up with all of the names used based on what he was exposed to in his life. But the names were just elements of the story telling. The stories about the BoM characters given those names would not need to be closely associated with the real-world people who had those names.
@@TEAM__POSEID0N I always just thought (as a believer) that Mosiah was a mix of Moses + Isaiah.
I'm glad to see the younger generation willing to take on the task of fitting the BofM into 19th-century American culture. The Mound Builder Myth thrived because it reflected the white colonists' view of the Indians as destroyers of a more civilized people much like themselves. It justified their treatment of the Indians. Ethan Smith and other ten tribe theorist were trying to save the Indians by linking them to Bible prophecy about the restoration of Israel in the last days, which was also a goal of the BofM.
As a former Mormon, I'm loving this series! Thank you for your hard work, Mike!
You must be so relieved that you've put everything behind you. Well done, you've done the right thing. 👏
💚
Nemo is a needed and brilliant voice in this series. I keep saying it, but I really love this series. It's so helpful with deconstructing.
1:00:00 let's not forget Daniel C. Peterson tried to pass off that Joseph never could have known "Alma" was a semitic masculine name - yet, there were multiple men named Alma during the time where Joseph grew up, including Alma L. Fuller (born in 1816) who apparently joined the church and followed the saints to Utah.
When approached about these things (according to RFM in their Mormonism Live episode), Dan said something along the lines of, "Well we don't KNOW that Joseph came across or knew of any of these men named Alma!" These are the games he plays.
I am a non-Mormon but I am extremely interested in Mormon history, particularly the first few dozen years. It is, i firmly believe, a very important aspect of not only American history, but also of philosophy and the development of modern Christianity. Your discussions are just about the most interesting thing I can imagine spending an hour with, almost every day. I can't thank you enough. I am beginning to set up quite a good library. Your suggestions on books to study are invaluable. I love all the people you bring in to the discussions. Particularly women.
thank you for explaining in depth about all this. much appreciated. born and raised, and i wish my family would see these videos.
As a ‘NeverMo’, I may not believe Joseph Smith is a prophet, but what I *am* starting to believe is that, had he lived in more recent times, he could have been one hell of a Dungeon Master for a homebrew Dungeons and Dragons campaign 😂 Coming up with places and characters on the fly, narrating stories for hours on end, pulling together multiple pop culture and real world influences into his worldbuilding…Sounds like a pretty typical DM tbh
Excellent episode and series! The balance of content and commentary is just right. John's clarifications and Nemo's comments are very helpful! I appreciate Mike's level headed and compassionate approach. And of course his accessible and well researched information!
Nemo is phenomenal to have in these discussions with Mike. I think the two of them work of each others' live thoughts well.
Agreed. Nemo adds some much loved comic relief - a brief minute of humour to keep one engaged.
Loving this episode!!! This is answering so many questions I've had. Thank you!
A flock of fish,
A pack of birds,
A vineyard of olive trees
4 Nephi 6 “And thus did the thirty and eighth year pass away, and also the thirty and ninth, and forty and first, and the forty and second, yea, even until forty and nine years had passed away, and also the fifty and first, and the fifty and second; yea, and even until fifty and nine years had passed away.” This seems like a bit of “filler” to me.
This series is so helpful! I love when Nemo is a co host! Mike's information is great and I appreciate his empathy for those who a painfully deconstructing. Johns clarifications and summaries are really conducive to my understanding.
Yes. That’s why Mike and John are a good mix.
Mike is empathetic and very soft with the delivery of the material and then John chimes in and just slaughters JS & the Church in a few sentences.
It’s like watching two kids play with blocks. One kid carefully puts the blocks together and builds a nice tower and then the other kid comes out of no where and destroys everything in a few seconds. Only for them to pick up the blocks and build it up again. It’s just great. Lol
Thank you John and everyone else involved in this series. This is why The Book of Mormon belongs on your fantasy fiction shelf next to the Screwtape letters and not any where near any history books.
Nope.Put it in the 3rd rate sci to pile. Don't insult
C.S. Lewis 😉
Thank you so much for this. Remember, the reports are that he was made a Master Mason on sight ( or something like that), which means he had the ability to memorize very lengthy and complicated material almost instantly. I began going through the Masonic rites, and I was pulling my hair out just trying to get this stuff right. And if he was able to do that almost immediately, then he had an extraordinary memory, kind of like the lady that was on the show Taxi, Marilyn Henner. She talks about in his demonstrated how she can't forget anything that happens to her. It is immediately memorized like a diary in her head. It's funny that the church used to brag about these abilities that Joseph had to show how smart he was, and little did they know that that was just adding evidence for him having created The Book of Mormon
I remember Shawn McCraney’s Book of Morm-onion which was really helpful 10 years ago. This analysis takes that even further with more evidence. I love this series. Thank you for all the hard work.
Shawn he was great as well ! His take on the BOM is terrific to say the least!
Some observations:
1. The official LDS audio version of the BoM is a few minutes shy of twenty-nine hours. Listening only thirty minutes a day would allow you to finish the book *six times* in one year. Pretty sad...
2. Cross grafting was practiced on apple trees in Joseph's time so families could have just one tree, but it would still produce fruit. Apples need two different trees (for cross pollination) to make fruit. Apple propagating was here for over a hundred years before the time of Joseph. I'm sure reading that process about olive trees just made him see a correlation. (Dating myself here: While trying to remember this part of Zenos, I actually retrieved my physical BoM from the shelf, opened to Zenos, turned to the relevant chapter, and then remembered I could just look it up online. Ha!)
3. Names are just crazy. My grandfather's middle name was Mecrias. I had a great-uncle whose name was Crinus. (Macarius was a church father from ~300 CE. Macrinus was a Roman emperor, who only ruled ONE YEAR. How my simple, uneducated, German-speaking great-grandparents from the mid-1800s would've known this boggles my mind.) Laura Ingalls' husband was named Almanzo, and his family lore says it was a name used by an ancestor who fought in the Crusades against a noble Muslim named Al-Manzoor.
Correction: While Moroni appears on maps among many other names, it is not connected to Captain Kidd. Nor does it appear in a book about Kidd. There is no reason that Moroni would stand out to JS or anyone interested in pirates. Moroni happens to have been an Italian personal name. I agree with Mike that Comoro/Moroni stands as caution to those who use NHM (Nahom) as evidence for the BofM.
Always coming in clutch.
Excellent podcast. I always heard that the BofM was written "for our time." Clearly, (NOW I see it), it was written specifically for and about JS's time. If it was really for these current latter days, it would speak about issues relevant to our time, like race, lbgtq, feminism, equality, abortion, technology, scientific advancements, modes of travel, societal problems, modern types of warfare, etc. What IS in the BofM only extends as far as Joseph's time period.
I've been out of the believer space for almost 20 years, but in successively watching each of these episodes now, I'm astounded at the continual "Holy sh*t" moments I'm having!
On the one hand, I'm kicking myself for not seeing what is suddenly so glaringly obvious, while on the other hand realizing the overwhelming volume of information that was conveniently never disclosed and that would certainly have altered my beliefs had I been told, or known enough to ask questions.
In short, this series is groundbreaking for me, even two decades out of the Church. Thank you!
I know it could be put down as a coincidence; but I always found the fact that there’s a country called Comoros (spelt Camora on an 1808 map) with a capital city called Moroni a little unsettling when I used to be a member.
I should really wait until the end of the episode before commenting as you addressed it 😂
doesn't have to be strange could be just historical we as new comers to the land dosen't mean name didn't persist thur that would be something huh?
This allegory is supposed to have been written by a Jewish prophet in the Old World before Lehi's departure and offers a panoramic view of Israel's spiritual history, including the Nephites in America. Essentially, it elaborates Lehi's allegory of the olive tree (cf. 1 Ne. 10:12 14; 15:12 16), which in turn was inspired by Romans 11:11 24. Smith follows Paul's error of grafting branches from a wild olive tree into a cultivated tree. Nevertheless, Smith transforms Paul's simple analogy into an elaborate literary chimera.
The first thing one notices about Zenos' allegory is the apparent anomalous setting of olive trees in "vineyards," which was forbidden by Jewish law (Deut. 22:9) even though the rule was not enforced by New Testament times (Lk. 13:6). The allegory describes the husbandry of the olive trees pruning, grafting, fertilization in terms that would have been familiar to those working apple orchards,60 such as the Smiths had in Norwich, Vermont, and on their farm in Manchester, New York. -- Dan Vogel, The Making of a Prophet, 454.
I remember trying to read this part of the BOM several times and simply giving up, because I didn’t understand it, and because it was mind-numbingly boring. My first problem with it was wondering whether he was talking about olives or grapes. Couldn’t figure out why the farmer was growing olives in a vineyard.
HeyDan
FYI you are a total Dude and love your work.
All the best for the future
The confusion about vinyards and olive trees...in biblical hebrew grove of olive trees, is called "a vinyard". This siunds absurd, but the problem is with the translation. The hebrew word is "kerem" which means something like a tightly planted grove arrenged in rows. Used by itself a kerem means a vinyard by default. However, a kerem is also used to refer to an olive grove, and then the hebrew will read "kerem zayit" to differentiate it from a regular vinyard. One example can be found in judges 15:4-5. I have no idea why this information is useful for you guys, but it is what it is.
I'm always blown away by you 3 brilliant men!! I always learn more and more from you! Thank You!!
Several of the Book of Mormon "prophets" made a point of telling their future readers that they could not write much on the plates due to limited space, a limited supply of golden plates (ore supply problems and so on) and engraving difficulties. But for some reason, they felt a need to fill up page after page with totally unnecessary "and it came to pass" and "for behold" verbiage along with pointless digressions and qualifications and corrections, such as adding the parenthetical "speaking of things to come as though they had already come" correction after pointlessly putting Jesus into the past tense (when it would have been clearer and simpler to simply say "if Christ does not come into this world" in the first place). And then there are the parts where the plate writer/engraver refers to many precious and wonderful things that cannot be written (or words to that effect), leaving one to wonder why it was so often the case that the really wonderful stuff could not be written, while so much dumb stuff absolutely had to be written.
Basically, my attempts at finding depth and meaning in the Book of Mormon failed miserably and, for the most part, my experience with it can be summarized by the following impression of what at least 75% of it sounds like:
"For I Beheld that, yeah, verily, verily, it came to pass or rather will come to pass, speaking of things that came as though they are yet to come, that due to limitations with regard to that space on the plates that would be sufficient for writing upon them the many precious and wonderful things that were preached and taught, as well as due to the great difficulty in procuring plates and ore sufficient to the purpose of preparing plates to be written upon or more to the point enough plates and space on which the precious and wonderful things could be written had there been sufficient plates for our needs, behold that I, Moron, being named after my father, Moron, who was King of the Land of Moron, found myself moved by the spirit to spend all of my days writing tiresome prose about nothing other than how there was not enough space upon which to write the really important things and it came to pass that after I had filled up a goodly portion of the plates with useless nonsense, I found that behold I had indeed become enfeebled and knew that my days of engraving upon the plates had come to an end wherefore, behold, it came to pass that I did entrust the plates to the care and stewardship of my son, Droolsalot, who has taken them whither I do not know, or rather will take them whither I do not know, wherefore in the former instance I spoke of things to come as though they had already come and in the latter instance I speak of them as being things to come for it will come to pass that such things will come to pass." (Book of Moron and Droolsalot: Chapter 3, verse 2) (This is from the medium-sized plates, which were larger than the small plates, but smaller than the larger plates.)
😂😂😂. I gotta meet you some day @Team POSEIDON !!!
You not only have great insight but are a talented writer.
This is so hilarious 😆 !!!
Thank you for the laughs 😂
Even if the olive tree allegory wasn't plagiarized/heavily inspired by other texts it wouldn't be impressive that JS knows how to take care of woody plants. I know all the "botanical principles and horticultural practises" mentioned in the allegory because my mom had a tiny suburban apple orchard. JS grew up on a farm. He would've done all of that with their apple trees. All woody plants are cared for much in the same way.
Interesting presentation. When I was a young man, both Jack Welch and Tad Callister were in my ward. Tad was two years older than me and Jack was a year older. They both came from prominent families where the fathers were both high-powered Los Angeles area attorneys. Both of them became successful attorneys as well. So when you run into them in a discussion, they will certainly have their arguments prepared and go to bat for the side they are representing. A good lawyer can make a turd look like a rose to the jury, so keep that in mind when examining the arguments they present. Ultimately, the jury will decide.
Thank you for explaining the truth about The Book of Mormon. So grateful for all 3 of you.🌹💕
Something I love about Nemo's guest appearances is how good he is at deconstructing arguments - interpreting what someone is trying to do with their argument, whether the person is cognizant of their angle or not. It really helps me to see why I grew up believing what I believed, versus what I (don't) believe now.
I have no idea how to properly put this into words, but I'll just say that it continues to blow my mind whenever you bring up the very simple idea that JS was the author of the BoM, not the translator. My whole time growing up in the church, I was taught that the odd wording or "mistakes" in the BoM were the "original" author correcting themselves, especially Mormon or Moroni correcting himself, and that this was further proof of the BoM's veracity. The fact that it never even once crossed my mind (until I was about 18-19) that it could've simply been JS messing up his oral dictation is a bit embarrassing for me, but also proves Nemo and John's point that it's powerful when you raise a child reading and believing something and form all kinds of strong emotions around the child's experiences with something like the BoM.
What I WILL credit my younger self with is that I never understood all the praise for JS about the olive trees. Maybe I was a weird kid, but I read the Bible (Old and New Testament) cover to cover a couple of times before I graduated from high school. Talk of grafting and olive trees isn't unique to the BoM. Did my Sunday school teachers simply not realize that? It's possible I guess, lol.
I just learned about the people named Laman and Lemuel in JS's life from this video, and even after years of church inactivity, hearing it still felt like a blow. All those teachers and devotional speakers throughout my life insisting on how there's no way JS could've come up with such unusual names that have RECOGNIZABLE ROOTS IN MODERN LANGUAGE - because they were names of JS's friends, neighbors, peers, and contemporaries! Or he changed one letter here or there. I don't know if it's ignorant or dishonest on the parts of those teachers and devotional speakers, but it any case, I'm sitting here feeling both baffled and furious.
I hugely appreciate Mike at the end talking about how he's able to talk about problems with JS and the church without feeling angry. I'm really glad he's been able to reach that point, because I'm frustrated with myself that I still haven't gotten there myself. There are days when I feel like I can think about the church, JS, and the BoM with nothing, or with disinterest, but there are definitely still more days where I feel angry and hurt even years down the line. It's a good thing that nobody has talked with me face-to-face in any kind of confrontational way about the church, because I'm certain I would quickly become too angry to have a useful conversation. But watching these videos has helped me accept how I was raised and accept the choices I made that I regret now (BYU, mission, seminary), and so eventually, I think I'll be able to be utterly dispassionate towards the church and any conversations I have about it.
When Nemo brought up the number of times "It came to pass" is used, it brought to mind how Mark Twain said in his book Roughing It how he thought the BOM was boring and poorly written.( My words, not his) Thanks to the Backyard Professor for introducing Mark Twain's book in one of his podcasts.
Yes. I think it was Mark Twain who said that if you took out all the "and it came to pass" wording, the Book of Mormon would become just a pamphlet. (He also found humor in phrases like "exceeding sore".)
“Chloroform in print”‼️
One thing that may not have been mentioned is that Oliver Cowdrey had to repeat to Joseph all the words that were written down and thus this gave Joseph more time to think about his next words while Oliver was reading what he wrote.
This is so good! Thank you for putting it together.
i dunno amy i wouldn't be so quick to throw in with these guys there falling short of the mark its a planned scheme to draw attention but its weak sauce , its seems better to reserve thought until more pudding(substance) is presented these guys at best is rifting off each other even tho it obvious preplanned all these issues like the joseph hunted for treasure or there is wording from king james version or even there conjecture of how the beginning rolled out of the church and translation but that started with at 14 years old so he see visions and being told its buried now all that's being rolled up into some huge conspiracy seem more like a waist of time leading to there site getting clicks which is fine just don't believe evey thing you hear and im not saying that your are . all i'm saying is Joseph had a out he was in the saddle headed west he felt as tho that wasn't his best move turned his horse around at that moment he knew what was going to happen . and all that is asked for is read and pray find the answer in your heart that seems like a fair shake
According to my Stake President as I was discussing my issues with him I was told that his mother is not a reliable source as she was old and probably had confused memories of Joseph's childhood and the process. So as usual if the source contradicts the narrative then you have to eliminate and discredit the source.
Emma was an old woman when she claimed that Joseph did not practice polygamy. Your stake president may have been correct.
John you are 💯% right this is building like crazy and I feel like the plots thickened and the suspense is just building in every episode. I went and started the series from the beginning a few weeks ago and this is just great. Anyone watching if you haven’t seen the previous episodes GO BACK it is soooo worth it especially if you are a lifelong member. Just think we’ve been indoctrinated for centuries in the church you owe it to yourself to go back to the beginning and get the part of the story you haven’t been told. If you ever served a mission you NEED to learn the omitted portions of the discussions. This is not only what we’ve been taught but also what we’ve taught others on the mission.
This episode is a freaking masterpiece. Bravo Mike, Nemo, John.
I had enough to convince me at episode 3... and we're still digging the hole.
Amazing research and presentation, you guys! Growing up in the church, I was so sure that the BoM had to be true because of 'who could write a book like that?' :-) You all did an amazing job researching, putting it all together to make sense, summarising, and discuss. Although the videos are all long (and need to be), it was all very interesting until the end.
I practice Street Epistemology (found you via Anthony Magnabosco), and I talk with LDS missionaries whenever they come through my area.
This has been really useful as a background for me, appreciate the work you have put in to get this information together in an easy to follow way.
Mark Twain said that if one would remove the phrase “And it Came to Pass” from the book, it would merely be a pamphlet. 😂
Brilliant, once again. To add to what Nemo said about apologists explaining away BoM problems as those that happen in a vacuum, Joseph Smith himself attempted to cover his pre-polygamist debonair derriere by including the following in the title page: "And now, if there are faults they are the mistakes of men; wherefore, condemn not the things of God, that ye may be found spotless at the judgment-seat of Christ." The same happens, of course, with our leaders today (presentism, speaking as a prophet vs. just as a man, never speak ill of the Lord's anointed, and other fallacies).
I love these guys and the series are awesome. Mike is adorable, especially when he gets tongue tied!
Thank you for doing this!
I would love to see this kind analysis of every other christian religion. I bet these same scholars if they did an honest examination that not a religion would be left standing.
Not a single one. People can single out Mormonism all they want, but the truth is, every religion has similar roots. Only age gives them prestige. Cognitive dissonance is, unfortunately, very strong with many ex-Mormons.
Thank you. Watching from Alaska.
Brilliant. I learn so much about apologetics as a system, unrelated to the mormon issues, when listening to those deep dives.
My sincerest gratitude to you all.
Didn't Joseph have a curtain between himself and his scribes? And had a cover over the so-called plates? So if that's the case, could he have not placed some manuscripts under the cover of the plates and pulled them out after the scribe was behind the curtain? So he could have written down stuff previously to dictate to the scribe.
I can't remember which of these LDS Discussions episodes Mike pointed out that the Liahona was never mentioned by name in the Book of Mormon text except in Alma 37. I wanted to point out that that was somewhat hidden by the fact that Liahona was used in the chapter heading of 1 Ne 16, so it's likely most people (including me) never noticed the text itself didn't use its name when Nephi supposedly wrote about it.
What a great observation! That would have been really weird that Nephi never mentioned the Liahona by name if the book hadn't been made up and Joseph Smith couldn't remember what he called it/ how he spelled it in the "lost" 116 pages so he was careful not to name it by name until he was almost finished with the entire Book of Mormon in case the "lost" pages turned up.
These men know what thay are talking about. Great video.
Why didn't they use the parable of the cacao or coffee plantations or any plants that would have been native to and used by the Nephites? That would have actually made sense to and have been better understood by the people of that time. Olives were not introduced to the America's until after Columbus.
Amen.
"How the Book of Mormon was Composed" With LSD, I fixed that for you.
It came to pass was repeated how many times?
This is such a fantastic episode!👏🙌
Hi, I really enjoyed this entire episode. It has opened my mind SO MUCH, and provided so much additional information I had not considered about the Book of Mormon's composition! Is there a link to the entire series so that I can watch them in order?
Even more fantastic is the fact that this church that he started in 1830 has become today the best organization in the world for teaching principles of happiness and community do families and children. Anybody who like I has traveled to 50 different countries and gone to church in all of them in Europe Asia South America India the only place I haven't been is Africa.. Knows this fact.
The three of you are brilliant. Keep up the good work ❤
Thank you for providing such an interesting series. I think the bottom line is that JS was planning a grift on the people around him. He could not have any idea how far this initial grift would spread and he never planned for this book, or the later ones, to be examined critically. I truly believe this spin out of control and he started believing his grift and started making truly evil decisions to keep himself in power. There were probably good people who got caught up in the love of power as well. Very sad.
Vineyards grow grapes. Group of olive trees are called a grove.
Might be helpful to have an episode on what events or problems where not addressed but that came up for church later on. Including no mention of the civil war, 2 world wars, or precautions for other issues such as plagues or pandemics.
On the overview pages on the website I have a 'three part' section on revelation and that's covered there, but we'll definitely be hitting that in future episodes!
One of the things that always nagged at me as being odd and suspicious about the whole "seer stone" mythology was how often Joseph Smith (or someone close to Joseph Smith) raised the possibility of the seer stone itself being a source of deception.
For example, there's the Emma Smith quote mentioned at around 58:00.
Then there's the quote from David Whitmer about the failed attempt to sell the Book of Mormon copyright in Canada:
"[A]nd behold the following revelation came through the stone: ‘Some revelations are of God; and some revelations are of man: and some revelations are of the devil.’ So we see that the revelation to go to Toronto and sell the copy-right was not of God, but was of the devil or of the heart of man."
(David Whitmer- An Address to All Believers in Christ, P.31)
Then there's the incident where Hiram Page is rebuked for getting revelations from Satan through a seer stone, as memorialized in the Doctrine and Covenants:
"And again, thou shalt take thy brother, Hiram Page, between him and thee alone, and tell him that those things which he hath written from that stone are not of me and that Satan deceiveth him;" (Doctrine and Covenants, Section 28 : 11 .)
With all that in mind, thinking about the Emma quote doesn't it seem particularly bizarre that Joseph Smith is acting like he's confused and wondering whether the rock is deceiving him and, instead of relying on the Holy Ghost or whatever, he does his own "fact-checking" by asking Emma whether there were walls around Jerusalem? Once Emma confirms it, Joseph Smith pretends like all is good and back on track, now that it appears again that the rock can be trusted...for now. Tricksy rock! Nasty rock lieses about the presshus!
Yes, the incident with Hiram Page is a very clear indicator that Joseph Smith knew the seer stone was not really giving revelation.
I would like to meet the unseen guest in many of these episodes. Namely, Mike's dog.
There are two... and they both do not understand the "please keep quiet during the episodes" rule I've tried to teach them. :)
49:13 this part about the allegory of the olive tree makes SO MUCH SENSE
32:21 Mark Twain noted this pattern. He noticed that any time the Book of Mormon started to become a little too contemporary, there were injections of King James English to bring things back in line. Twain utterly pulled apart the BoM, and the most famous of his criticisms was calling the BoM "chloroform in print."
The thing towards the beginning of this video that I find most entertaining to consider is if you apply the "ten pages a day" translating "speed" with how efficient the symbols are supposed to be during the translation. When you do the math, this would be something like boasting Joseph Smith got through 3-4 symbols a day. What an impeccable translation speed, indeed.
It took him almost 90 days to "translate" the lost 116 pages but then is able to "translate" 500 plus pages in 85 + or - days. Why did it take so long to do the first "translation". Why did the miracle of speed not work with the first draft.
well there was stop and go from being able to translate behaviours that need corrected they had to locate a reasonable place a couple times all the while people were trying to do bad things to joseph and crew. doing the right thing is tuff some time , i wouldn't thrown in with these guys misconstewers ill intent fortified with click bate
Oliver Cowdery brought additional material from the New Israelites that Joesph elaborated on. That’s why it sped up so much.
I just started laughing when the slide about Laman and Lemuel came up. That's just too funny. I'm working through these episodes and that, plus the Charles Anthon list are honestly bigger smoking guns than anything else I've heard thus far for me. It's too funny.
Please don't change a thing. I love the discussion
Thank you for sharing this information.
I don't dispute what you're saying but if you know anything about the church like I do and seen it operating all of the world you see that it is the best organization on the planet for helping families and children in a community that teaches good principles for happiness and success.. I mean you guys are good examples of it yourselves. And there are many others on TH-cam like yourself who come out of the LDS background and gained a lot from it.
I'm not sure if anyone commented on this, but something I noticed a while back, is the word Neophyte, defined as a new convert to a religion. a novice in a religious order, or a newly ordained priest. It is a term found once in the new testament 1 timothy 3:6
for me the trigger for questioning the lds church was the hymn praise to the man... I grew up with it just being another inspired song. it wasn't until my twenties after my mission that, hearing the song in english again, I started to realize that we were just worshipping joseph in song. But we were also taught that God is jealous so He wouldn't be okay with that. Then I started questioning why we did every aspect. The more I questioned in my mind the more I realized that I was not comfortable with how the church operates or what it teaches. It wasnt until I started to look at it objectively that I could see just how messed up it was.
Does the podcast discuss the coming of Christ to Ancient America and stories that existed around the 1800s about that? I'd be interested in hearing about that also.
A nice Mormon gave a copy of the Book of Mormon to my father to read. She asked about his thoughts (after he read it). He said..."the word that came to mind was...PREPOSTEROUS!" As a reader/believer of the KJV Bible, I have to agree with my father about the BOM. There are SOOO many ways to shoot down this book and the fraud who wrote it.
Love all the hats! Is that by design? Obviously love Nemo’s the most!
Nemo is sooo funny and made the discussions fun to watch!
Hawaiian Book of Mormon is same as Welsh in that it is still available and in original format as translated by George Q. Cannon and Jonathan Napela.
What about the 25 or so names which are exactly or almost exactly the same as found around the area of Palmyra, NY? See Vernon Holley's map.
I can't seem to locate episodes 11 through 17 intelligently. Can anyone help me?
I was challenged recently. By a couple of young Mormon missionaries. To take their brochure and Book of Mormon. To read and see how I felt about their religion. I didn't know anything about their ways and beliefs. I'm a new born Christian and have been for some time. I read the bible and study the scripture. So I took their brochure and bible. Because I was interested to see why so many people follow the Mormon Religion. After reading their brochure on what happens when we pass on. I was 1st confused on their 3 tiers of heaven. I had never heard of that. And it's some thing I've never read in the bible. So that was strange. Then I read on how after death. They believe you still have a choice for salvation. And that was a big red flag for me. Again totally opposite of what I believe and have been taught in church. So after reading the Brochure. I didnt even get into the Book of Mormon. Because I had to understand who and how their bible was created. And after many hours of research. I was shocked to learn what kind of man this Joseph Smith was. He want a good God filled human being. And I wont get into all the details. But my Lord. Who in their right mind. Could take anything this man said as truth and from God. After splitting his own church a few times because of his actions. And being arrested for his choices and behavior. Going out side his marriage. Then being killed by a angry mob. Not due to his works following Jesus. But because people had enough of this guy. After learning all that and so much more information about this man. I couldnt even look into a so called spiritual Text he created. It would all be false scripture. And the Bible already warns us of that. So to me Joseph Smith is no more then a old school pioneer for people like David Corrish I believe his name was. Just doing what ever they wanted to folks that would drink his Kool-aid. Its heart breaking to know so many people dont even seem to question the man that created the whole idea of this religion and its bible. But I will pray for these 2 young men that made this challenge to me. Because even though they believe in Jesus. They road they travel was created by a con man. And I for sure will be giving them back their literature. But it was interested to research and learn about their beliefs and religion. But no way would I have ever fell for it. God bless all and lets pray for members of this church. Like so many I have seen. Wake up to this con and walk straight to Christ for he and he alone can save us. Not a church or religion..
Let's not forget about Solomon Spalding.
I don't see any good evidence or reason to think that the Spalding manuscript theory is possible and is completely unnecessary given what we do know.
Maybe, but it is interesting.
Spalding only provides an example of a fictitious history about the Indians and Mound Builders. It had nothing directly to do with JS and the Book of Mormon.
In reference to Lehi's vision and Joseph Smith's father's dream, I seem to remember from Rough Stone Rolling that a theme in Joseph Smith's life was redeeming his father. After the financial difficulties his family went through and some drama about not living in more expensive frame style house, Smith Jr wanted to prove to the world his father's status. Smith Sr was ordained as a patriarch and didn't he have other important roles in getting priesthood? Anyway what I'm saying is that using an elaborated version of his father's vision in the BOM might also be a means of redeeming his father?
Fantastic series. This podcast in particular is epic. Nemo is a quiet giant. So many of us have done our own research and touched many of the edges as well as the entirety of the themes brought up regarding how the BofM was written. For sure the book is a conglomeration of other sources compiled. Joseph was a compiler and organizer and plagiarist. The research done by the main man here is splendidly organized and thorough. This well thought out premises is something that all should hear. I am wondering if we need to be so very sensitive with the feelings of TBMs. So what if there is tension? There is tension anyway. Tension gives way to frustration. This is only natural. Like a Stoic, we want to find ways that are both productive and valuable in an street, epistemology way. And yet, when one considers the lying, deceit and aggressive judgement coming from the religious system; maybe we should not be so apologetic. I attended a meeting one evening when a brilliant young BYU student showed up obviously emotionally unstable. After the meeting as I spoke with him he indicated that he was homosexual and that he had just come from his grandfathers home. His grandfather had said to him, "Even though I know you are going to Hell, I still love you." That statement based on the mythical doctrines like the BofM had put him into a suicidal state. I told him to forget about his grandfather and that I would fill that space for him if he wanted. I told him how valuable and necessary he was to himself and all of us. When this kind of emotional abuse is being promoted by corrupt doctrines, maybe it is ok to get in ones face with the truth without apology. Each person will decide for themself.
What are the other 9 episodes he is is referring to?
Reportedly, as long as Joseph Smith was actually alive, he was referring to the angel he dealt with and received instruction from as being NEPHI, and not MORONI. Lots of changes, refinements, revisions, tune-ups, etc., throughout the years to end up with what we have / see today.
What gets me is not who wrote it, I don’t really care!
What gets me is how you get anybody to read! That I do care about!
I can understand the Bible, and not feel stupid! But when I attempted to read Smith’s book I felt like the stupidest mfer ever! I am stupid but not that damn stupid!
I wish someone would come up with an abridged version that was easy to understand and then maybe just maybe for giggles I may read it while on the toilet!
Here's a 3- Paragraph Abridged Version:
And it came to pass that a couple of families decided to leave Jerusalem because the family patriarch heard voices in his head telling him that Jerusalem would be destroyed. One of his sons ("Nephi") was a superhero who murdered a man to steal some brass plates that contained some Old Testament stuff on it. The superhero son then built a cruise ship in the desert. The two intermarried families took the cruise ship to the ocean, launched it and rode it nicely across the Indian Ocean and the Pacific Ocean, eventually arriving somewhere in the western hemisphere. (After arriving, they bred and multiplied so rapidly that all the rabbits in the world felt ashamed, took note and started encouraging each other to reproduce harder and faster. "We need to breed like Book of Mormon people" was the catchphrase heard everywhere in rabbit world. ) Soon the entire western hemisphere was occupied by millions of the most inbred people ever. But these people divided into two separate peoples. The descendants of the superhero son and relatives loyal to him became the "Nephites" and they were white and delightsome. The descendants of the superhero's inferior and ill-tempered brothers ("Laman" and "Lemuel") became the "Lamanites". They were cursed with very dark skin so that the Lamanites and Nephites would not be easily confused as to who was who. The division was necessary to create conflict and drama because that's what makes a book sell well.
Long story short, they fought a lot. They reenacted some Bible stories. Jesus came and killed a whole bunch of them because he thought they had a bad attitude. Eventually, the white and delightsome Nephites became just as evil or more evil than the dark and loathsome Lamanites, but their skin color was not affected for some reason. Apparently, the skin color = degree of righteousness thing was just a one-time deal and God didn't care to update things. Then the Nephites were all wiped out by the Lamanites in a huge battle that involved hundreds of thousands of people and was centered around a hill called the "Hill Cumorah" that was not far from Joseph Smith's farm. But because no evidence of any such battle has ever been found, Mormon scholars think that the battle must have been at a different "Hill Cumorah". The last Nephite buried a record of the whole history of things that happened. The record was a stack of gold plates on which the "prophets" of the Book of Mormon inscribed things. It was buried in the Hill Cumorah that was close to Joseph's house.
Fast forward to the early 19th century. Joseph Smith, who pretended to locate buried treasure with a magic rock, started getting into difficulties because he never actually found any treasure and his excuses ("it slipped deeper underground") stopped working. Fortunately, his magic rock converted to religion and, along with an angel named Macaroni, helped Joseph Smith find the golden plates in the Hill Cumorah. Nobody could actually see them, except for Joseph, because they were protected by a zap-o-matic strike-u-dedd security feature. But Joe's friends could pretend to see them with "spiritual eyes" and therefore be witnesses. Joe would describe them and if the friend could picture what Joe was describing in his mind, he was having a "vision" of them. Good enuff to be a witness. Joe used the same rock to translate the golden plates, without the golden plates even having to be in the same room. And the world has been blessed with the Book of Mormon ever since then.
Grant also referenced the book the Golden Pot.
I was raised a Roman Catholic, but a family that my parents knew were Mormon and we went to the Hill cumorah pageant several times. I am not surprised as the Mormon church was formed in New York State where the different Christian movements such as the Methodists and the Baptists took over the Burned Over Dustrict. The oneidas, the Shakers, and the Quakers also g formed a lot of different societies. Joseph Smith just picked up a lot of ideas from society.
1:30:01 I still think the name thing is pretty impressive. Try doing it . Kinda difficult
The problem is once you look at how few names are brought along in the Book of Mormon it's not that hard. Once you know you can abandon the names after a few uses it becomes easy to come up with more names as you go. If he was calling those names back throughout the BoM that would be truly impressive, but most are used in a small section and forgotten forever.
Something I don’t understand about the incident of the lost 116 pages - when he started over, I believe I’ve heard that he was using another set of plates. Is that right? Where the heck did another set of plates come from?
We cover this in a lot of detail in the 116 pages episode, but it's an issue that gets really problematic when you look at the development of the "small plates" along with the production of the Book of Mormon. He did claim another set of plates, but it's clear that the idea of a second set of plates is something he came up with after the fact to try and explain where the replacement material would come from.
@@LDSDiscussions Thanks. I guess what I’m asking is whether the small plates were included with others he was given by Moroni, or if they just providentially showed up on his desk one day? Surely there’s some origin story? I apologize for my ignorance - I’m a never Mormon atheist who is a huge fan. I believe that what you do is so valuable, and sheds a great deal of light on religions far beyond Mormonism. But lacking a Mormon education, I occasionally get a little confused, and this second set of plates just bugs me. Was Joseph Smith supposed to be running full speed down a rough country road at night and knocking down attackers while carrying TWO sets of heavy plates? Or did he receive them on another occasion that I somehow missed hearing about?
21:23 I guess I must have missed something. What about block paragraphs versus versed paragraphs makes it less "miraculous"?
I might be off the mark, but my take away is that this book has been edited and refined over the past 100 years. I think it would be uncomfortable for a lot of Mormons to see the text in a more original, less polished/edited condition.
What we were saying is that the original Book of Mormon was full of run on sentences, grammatical errors, and folksy language that would real really poorly today. It would not look very miraculous to read it in the original form especially given that there have also been some significant changes to it.
2:05:06 it’s easier to con someone than convince someone they’ve been conned
Around 1:30 into video, names in the BoM as evidence of its historicity are discussed. Here is some of what I have found researching the claim that names in the BoM support its authenticity:
Names found within the BoM-
“Apologists note that many of the proper names in the Book of Mormon are Hebrew names found in the Bible (e.g. Lehi, Lemuel, Ammon, and Enos). Tvedtnes, Gee, & Roper argue that there are a number of Hebrew names found in the Book of Mormon which do not appear in the Bible but occur in other ancient sources. Examples of these are Aha, Ammonihah, Chemish, Hagoth, Himni, Isabel, Jarom, Josh, Luram, Mathoni, Mathonihah, Muloki, and Sam.[30] Hugh Nibley also claims that many non-biblical names found in the Book of Mormon resemble words from ancient Hebrew (e.g. Sariah, Jarom, and Josh).[68] Some, like Alma, are attested Hebrew names. Milton Hunter and Thomas Ferguson allege that Hebraic fragments and roots appear discernible in Nephite / Mulekite names such as ‘Zarahemla’.[69] These names are often interpreted as evidence in favor of the Book of Mormon, since Joseph Smith's knowledge of Hebrew was limited to names found in the Bible.[30]
Critics have pointed out that many of the names in the Book of Mormon that are not drawn from the King James Bible are found in the local environment around Palmyra, New York and would have been known to Smith.[70][71][72] Richard Packham has pointed out that several Biblical Hebrew names, including Aaron,[73] Ephraim,[74] and Levi[75] are listed as Jaredites in the Book of Ether. He argues that these are anachronisms, since the Jaredites are supposed to have originated from the time of the Tower of Babel, and did not speak Hebrew.[22]]” (Linguistics and the Book of Mormon - en-academic)
“In addition, Packham has pointed out that while ‘Isabel’ is derived from the ancient Hebrew Elizabeth, the name Isabel did not exist until 12th century Spain, which he argues is evidence against the authenticity of the Book of Mormon.[19]” (Linguistics and the Book of Mormon - Wikipedia)
“The Book of Mormon contains over 300 proper names. Many LDS assume that this is evidence that Joseph Smith could not have made up the Book of Mormon. However, when we examine the list of names at the end of the Book of Mormon we notice that 141 of the names are taken from the Bible. For example, the Book of Mormon has Abraham, Ammon, Bethabara, Esrom, Ether, Gomorrah, Ishmael, Jared, Jonas, Judea, Lemuel, Madmenah, Nazareth, Pathros, Pekah, Rama, Shinar, Sinim and Zebulun. The Book of Mormon also uses the Greek words Alpha and Omega.
Many names not found in the Bible seem to be made up by re-arranging various syllables or changing the ending of Bible names. For example, the Bible speaks of Abinadab, the Book of Mormon mentions Abinadi and Abinadom.. Smith's book also uses the Biblical Aminadab and a modified Aminodi. The Bible mentions Kish, the Book of Mormon has Akish and Kishcumen. The Bible has Gimzo, the Book of Mormon speaks of Gimgimno. Besides using the Biblical name Helam, Smith's book expands it to Helaman. The Book of Mormon uses the Biblical name of Antipas and builds on it to form these Book of Mormon names: Anti-Nephi-Lehi, Antiomno, Antion, Antionah, Antionum, Antiparah and Antipus. Some seem to be simply different spellings. Melech in the Bible becomes Melek in the Book of Mormon. In like manner, Nahum becomes Nahom.
More names are created by adding such endings as "hah." The Book of Mormon has the names Nephi and Nephihah; Moroni and Moronihah; Ammon and Ammonihah; Mathoni and Mathonihah. Some names seem to be just extensions of the same Book of Mormon word. For example, Antion seems to be the base for Antionah, Antionum and Antiomno. Book of Mormon Shim is expanded to Shimnilon. Corianton is slightly changed to make the additional names of Coriantor, Coriantum and Coriantumr. Smith's book uses the Biblical word Gideon and shortens it to Gid, then expands it to Giddianhi, Giddonah, Gidgiddonah and Gidgiddoni. Riplah seems to be the base for Riplakish and Ripliancum.” (Possible Sources For Book of Mormon Names - UTLM)
Of the more than 300 names found within the BoM, most can be accounted for through the Bible and other contemporary sources. There seems to be 13 Hebrew names found in the Book of Mormon which do not appear in the Bible but occur in other ancient sources. Of the 13 names, “Isabel” did not exist until 12th century Spain, making its inclusion in the BoM anachronistic. Of the 12 remaining names, most could be accounted for as derivatives of similar names found in the Bible or other contemporary 1800s sources.
For example:
Aha ~ Ahab (I Kings 16:28)
Ammonihah ~ Ammon (Genesis 19:38)
Chemish ~ Chemosh (Numbers 21:29)
Hagoth ~ Haggith (2 Samuel 3:4)
Himni ~ Shimhi (1 Chronicles 8:21)
Isabel = Anachronistic name in the BoM ~ Jezebel (1 Kings 16:31)
Jarom ~ Joram (2 Samuel 8:10)
Josh ~ Joshua (Exodus 17:9)
Luram ~ Ludim (Genesis 10:13)
Muloki ~ Amalek (Genesis 36:12)
Sam ~ Samuel (1 Samuel 1:20)
For the remaining two, it is possible that they are a combination of two separate names:
Mathew + Moroni ~ Mathoni
Mathew + Moroni + “hah” ~ Mathonihah
I find it interesting that of the 300+ names found within the BoM that are supposed to support its authenticity, the focus seems to be on about 13. It doesn’t appear to matter to the apologists that 99.5+% of the names can be accounted for. They want to focus on the less than 0.5% remaining names, as if it is the critic’s responsibility to account for and/or disprove 100% of an apologist’s claim. The burden is not on the critic’s to disprove any truth claim made by the LDS Church, its members, or its apologists. The burden of proof is on the person making the truth claim. And, in my opinion, if someone is leaning on less than 0.5% of a claim being evidence that the claim is true, that is not a very strong position. I guess when someone needs something to be true, less than 0.5% is good enough. Is the above explanation for the 12 remaining names proof that Joseph Smith derived those names? No. But, it is one possible explanation that can account for those names. So, do the names in the BoM really provide strong evidence supporting BoM historicity? Not in my opinion. Especially when also considering all the other evidence against BoM historicity.
You should be on an episode..
"powerful witness of Jesus Christ" does not at all describe the BOM. It is just the reflection of a 19th century mental opinion about Jesus, prior to modern scholarship on the beginning of Christianity. And it definitely is not a "translation".
The other thing here is that not only have I experienced the church in I don't know 40 or 50 different countries and I see that it is the greatest organization teaching happiness and principles of a good life. And not denying the facts that you are explaining here I had an experience just like Joseph Smith described in his first vision. Call it a a near-death experience or whatever you want. But it is a fact and I have been going to church ever since I was 23 every Sunday .. I have seen what the church does and anybody that is familiar with it knows this to be true..
37:53 Is it fair to say there were spelling and grammar errors? Weren't spelling and grammar a lot less standardized back then compared to now?
I heard one of the BOM like Alma has the hole bible book like Isaiah in it ?
Who really edited and rewrote it?? Along the way or recently
Can someone explain why "reformed Egyptian" sounds a lot like KJV English?
As an excuse to reach his hand into his white-stovepipe hat and reveal a concealed manuscript, was the stone, for Joseph Smith, a misdirection?
I think there's definitely a lot of misdirection with magic and the seer stone and treasure digging is absolutely a form of magic... just hard to say how or what that misdirection was since no one goes into that detail with the accounts.
I'm enjoying these older podcasts. Is there a discussion on Joseph Smith meaning to start a religion. OR did he just want to sell a book and other people looking for a "leader" made him one. Then he got caught up in the excitement and power of that?
1:01:10 I find people like to blame others for the same things they themselves do.