Brush Gun Cartridges - Chapter 3 - Cast Bullet Performance
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 4 พ.ค. 2020
- How does velocity affect cast bullet performance? Check it out as we take a simple approach to determine if velocity affects bullet deflection, penetration, and energy transfer using hard cast bullets from Cast Performance. These are the same bullets used in Grizzly 45-70 +P ammo.
For more in depth discussion from Randy Garrett, a real expert, check out the links below.
www.garrettcartridges.com/mep...
www.garrettcartridges.com/pen...
Why did I set my targets 20 yards past the "coupon"? To maximize deflection. If you want to know what that deflection would be at five yards, divide by four. - บันเทิง
Too much fun. I shoot 405 grain hard cast from a local commercial provider and keep them in the 1400 FPS range. Looks like the high speed recovered bullet was starting to fracture. Might be helpful to weigh and give recovered bullet weights.
Good idea David. Thanks for the suggestion, and I will pin this comment so folks can see
Bullet weight - unfired = 403gr.
Bullet weight - fired, low velocity = 399.5gr.
Bullet weitht - fired, high velocity = 365.2gr.
I know the man who designed LBT bullets the company has sold two times and now the bullets are not as good but i have killed buffalo deer ant antelope and never found the bullet . you can load them ass hot as you wont and you will not lead your gun no kidding i have killed 5 deer with a 41 mag pistol from 45 yr to 110 yrs with a 235 gr L.B.T bullet and never found a bullet
Has to do with your eyes. If there is a grid between your eyes and focal point , the focus is sharper.
1800 FPS 45-70 with a crescent buttplate... you sir, have earned my respect.
And some of those were from the bench. Those shots deserved pity, not respect 😵 Thanks for your comment!
There is a fine balance between bullet type and composition, velocity, ballistic medium, etc. A great bullet at one velocity will not always be a better bullet at a higher velocity. In this case it looks like the higher velocity caused the deformation which caused the parachute effect hindering penetration. Another cool video George.
Great comment! Thanks!
Love the 45-70 and can’t get enough of your videos. Thanks for the content and God Bless. Hope you are well.
@Rydeman Thanks! I appreciate that. God bless you and yours as well!
Love the detailed info and testing....So much to soak in....Great vid from start to finish as nice job....Good stuff.....
Thanks Scott! I appreciate the comment.
I enjoy this series of videos I am new to the 45 70 and still learning where legend and reality meet . Thanks
Thank you for watching!
That 1886 is a beauty! As always...an informative and fun video. I always enjoy the "reactive" results😊 Keep up the good work and keep these videos coming!
@Ladybug Gunner good to hear from you again. And you are right, that is one beautiful rifle and I am lucky to have it. Btw, I appreciate your encouragement! Thanks!
awesome video. A truly brush gun/caliber combo.
That is the best combo at minimizing deflection that I have tested so far. When I get my hands on more bullets, I'll try those loads in my Henry X model. If they shoot as well, that short light Henry would really be a great brush gun/caliber combo. Thanks for the comment.
All I know is you are having way too much fun all by yourself . Thank you for the informational videos . "Deeds not words "
Fun and helpful. If I can check off those two boxes, I'd consider Target Suite a success. Thanks for the comments. I appreciate hearing from you.
@@TargetSuite then a success it is on both ! Thank you
👍👍👍
For my 95 Marlin with the micro grove barrel i lapped out the Lee 405 and 340 PB mold to .4605 and water dropped them hot out of the mold.Wheel weights were used and the weight was 10 grains above the advertised weight of the mold .There was very little leading if any using LBT Blue lube loaded to 1750 with 3031 and will go from stem to stern through 1200 pounds of moose .The brinnell was about the same as yours after the water treatment .You should try the Lee 405 hollow base mold that one is .459 and would have a good gas seal due to the HB. Beautifull 1886 you have there jealous.
Hi Albert. My 1886 is blushing:-) I got into casting bullets back in the '70 when I had a S&W 41 magnum, but sadly didn't pursue that and dumped all my stuff, including 100# of Linotype. Comments like yours make me think about starting up again, but I will probably enjoy casting vicariously through comments like yours. Thanks!
Great Video! thank you for all your time and expense to make a very nice test vid.
Thanks! I really appreciate that!
Nice range setup, beautiful model 86.... And those bullets are the right pill for that big old nasty bear..... A 45 70 has been on my wish list for a long time...... Penetration is remarkable... Aussome power.... Great video.....great experiment....!
Thanks Kevin. I appreciate the comment!
I load my 405's at about 1300 and they do fine. Never found a need to soup up the 45/70
It was comments like yours that got me to make this video. I had always been trying to "soup up" the 45-70 before and didn't understand the slow speed potential. Thanks!
im far far from an expert but it works the same with my 44 mag and 45 colt loads. Elmer Keith said something and I paraphrase by saying velocity only flattens trajectory
Mr. Keith had a way with words. Wonder what he'd be saying today😉
@@TargetSuite he would tell us to buy a 270.
@@TargetSuiteone of the reasons they chose the 45/70 over the 50/70 was the 45/70 would go threw a full size horse at 800 yards
Absolutely amazing video! I love the real world testing of stuff. I’ve been casting for 30 years and am a very big 45-70 fan.
I cast a 510 gr WFNPB that I powder coat and load to 1330 FPS out of 15” TC Encore pistol . It is of pure lead and expands to nearly an inch in diameter.
It appears that failure to expand in lower velocity load allows for deeper penetration. Whereas the high velocity loading was able to expand the bullet nose effectively dumping its energy much sooner. Now if brinell scale hardness was dropped to 15 in lower velocity loading my guess is it would be a bit better matched to the velocity of load and would have expanded similarly to the other bullet. Of course this is assuming you want expansion and not maximum penetration. Again excellent video! Ray
Thanks for your comment. When I posted this last year, I was on a penetration mission but eventually realized there was a lot of goodness in lower velocity 45-70 rounds. But you are right, bullet hardness, or rather softness comes into play if hunting is your game. Thanks again.
Looking at a new Marlin 45/70. If i pick this rifle up your videos will be a big help. 👌👌
Hi Robert. Good luck on that 45-70. It only took me 68 years to finally get one😄
Great video.
Welcome to the world of sssslow. 😁
Basically same hard cast I was telling you about, and roughly same slow speed I send mine at,
I think it was the larger metaplate more then distance to target, easy to test that, set target closer,
Great video again.
Hi Daniel. There's been a lot of water under the bridge, but I think it was you who got me thinking about slower is better. Thanks! I may move that fixture closer and reshoot, but man, I've got to get something lighter than a waterlogged 6X6X16 to move around😄 Seriously, I appreciate all your comments.
Certainly makes sense that the expanded bullet wouldn't go as far , and I know that hydraulic force is often underestimated , but I guess I'm surprised that a bullet that hard deformed so much . Excellent video , very interesting and informative !
I was very surprised. But you are right about the nature of water. All you have to do is belly flop once off the high dive to at least partially understand. Thanks!
Helloo from Sweden 🇸🇪
What a beautiful Winchester rifle 😃.
Great video 👍👍
Thanks!
Another great video! You're right up therewith Hickock. I finally ordered a 45-70., I don't have it yet but the bullet mold, dies and brass showed up today. In a week or 2 I'll be shooting
David, you really know how to go "all in"😉 Which 45-70 did you order?
Lol I'm waiting on a Henry 4570, I have all these accessories laying around waiting on the rifle.
@KiLo did you order the X Model Henry?
@@TargetSuite no, but I considered it. I got the color case one. I think it's a h010cc model. I grab a Skinner rail with the peep sight. Your videos are good btw.
Thanks! I'm sure you'll love that rifle.
Lately I have watched quite a few videos of tests like the one you performed here. Almost always -if not ALWAYS- the slower bullets penetrate some times significantly more than the faster ones, even though they are solid bullets. I believe the explanation is that the faster a bullet hits a target, the more deformation it will suffer, therefore transferring its energy faster than the slower flying slug. Something else: I enjoy more the “scientific” part of your videos than the fun part of them, which I also enjoy, but a little less so. Thanks for your great videos.
Thanks!
Liquid is reactive. If you place your hand under water and move slowly there is little resistance. Do the same but try to move your hand as fast as you can and there is greater resistance to movement.
Slower bullet creates less resistance. I'm no physicist, i learnt this as a kid swimming on weekends.
Always fun with 45/70.👍🇺🇸🇳🇿👍
Yep. Can you say belly flop😬 Thanks for the comment Shane!
Good stuff, I appreciate your work! -Gunny T sends
Thanks Gunny!
That is one beautiful rifle.
Hi Ken. She is a beaut. Shoots great and looks greater! Thanks!
There’s one problem with it its not mine 🙂
Hi Chris, I've made two rifle purchases with TH-cam in mind. This 1886 and the Henry X Model. Both were good for the channel, but only one will likely hang around long term. Guess which one😉
The 1886
@David DeJong Yes ! ! !
I have a Rossi 92 in .45 Colt. Love lever action guns.
I love the '92. I'm thinking about replacing my Marlin 1894 with a Winchester 92. So far, just thinking. Thanks for the comment.
I have always had the most penetration with big meplat .45-70 lead bullets at medium velocity around 1400 FPS and just wheel weight alloy . I cast 90% of my bullets and have much better results then factory cast with that hard lube that they use. I also make my own lube that is much softer and works way better and no gas checks most of the time. Most bullets I use are plain base. But your testing was fun and very interesting I like your videos and keep doing what you enjoy.
Thanks Craig!
Best one yet!!! Very interesting. I shoot hard cast in my 26” 1895 Cowboy, 1895 guide gun and my Handi Rifle. The Cowboy I try to keep the velocity around 1400 or less just for comfort. The Guide gun I had run in the 1650s and the H&R about the same. I may re adjust into the 1500s and see how they like them. The truth is they will pole axe anything I can shoot (big hog) at 1300fps. As to the experiment with the coupons, I think the answer is Both me plat and the distance change. Thanks for the work!!!
Hi Mark. My first choice of 45-70 was the 1895CB but glad I have the extra couple of pound in the 1886. I've shot stout loads in my Henry X model and it kicks like a mule. The thick recoil pad on that rifle just keeps it from drawing blood😄Btw, that's a great bevy of firearms you have there!
Target Suite I was 51 before I joined the 45-70 clan and just added another Marlin and I am still 51 years of age. They have been gathering around me like those bees you mentioned to the watermelon.
Haha! I think I read somewhere there is therapy for 45-70 addiction😄
@@TargetSuite put mercury recoil reducers in the stock and go with a recoil pad that curved but plate hurts me just watching it
I made some copper tube/heavy magnet reducers that use Linz's law to retard recoil. I didn't put one in the 1886 (thankfully) because their effect was minimal.
Good video
Thanks! I appreciate that!
These are superb vids Sir. If you love the 2nd and are just a regular dude, what is NOT TO LIKE? Thanks & GBU, Michael in Houston
Thanks Jazz Man. I do love the 2nd and guess I am kind of a "regular" guy . . . boring some might say😜 Good to hear from a "neighbor"
New to 45-70, shot it a few times and bought a 30-30. How about some tips and tricks on holding and recoil control. Would be the MOST help. Love the videos keep up the bad work🤙
Hi Tim. I probably need a little more info to really answer your question, but I'll start with this . . . recoil control can mean different things to different people. Some would say "handling" recoil is a way to insure a quick second shot, in other words, to minimize rifle movement under recoil. And to do that you would lean into the rifle and brace yourself to absorb the full "impact". But to control recoil like that, especially a light rifle like a Marlin or Henry lever action, makes for some pretty uncomfortable shooting. To me, the best approach with a heavy recoiling rifle is to first make sure the rifle is firmly mounted to the shoulder, your weight shifted somewhat to the forward foot, but otherwise keep your body fairly relaxed when the rifle is fired. This allows the body to move under recoil and at the same time maintain balance. I would also say, watch the thumb of your shooting hand. Under heavy recoil, it will make a bee line for your nose. Was that helpful?
That did help alot but im also a rather big guy at 6'3 and 270lbs and just containing the recoil for the second shot is whats getting me off target. I bought it to go camping and the places i want to go have bears so.. 45-70 but the back up or follow up shot is whats getting me off target. I have an 1895 marlin i bought new last december and have put maybe 3 boxes of rounds through it. Ive had a bunch of experience with 12 gauge and heavy recoil but this gun is hard for me to tame
I'm 6'0 and 230, so similar "mass to volume" ratio. I made a few videos with a friend's 1895 and the difference between recoil with the 7+ pounds of that rifle and the 10+ pounds of my 1886 was stark. And both of those rifles have longer barrels. It may just boil down to the fact that full house loads in a 45-70 are tough to shoot, especially if you got one of the 18" models that are so popular now. But with my recent "discoveries" concerning lower velocity (and lower recoil) loads, there is an option if you hand load your ammo. Maybe some of the other viewers will also jump in with a different perspective.
Interesting stuff. I’m considering finally pulling the trigger, as it were, on a .45-70 and handloading, maybe even casting my own bullets. Be nice to tailor loads for different circumstances. Take care!
Yep. Bullet casting is taking the satisfaction of reloading to a higher plain. And having cast my own bullets back in the '70s I can say it's pretty easy . . . to get average quality bullets. But what I have learned since is that I had barely begun to know how to cast really good bullets. Of course you do have those looong winters😉 Good to hear from you again!
so many good cast bullets to choose from.
not sure how much reloading experience you have, but one thing I discovered with fat, heavy bullets is the normal .2 or .3 gr increments in load development are a waste of time, powder, primers, and bullets. There is so much overlap in velocity and the small fraction increments, and so little need for MOA accuracy with those bullets, I've gotten to where I start at the bottom load and work up in 1 gr increments. i've never gotten to max load, either - always find something with acceptable accuracy long before I get to max.
that would be heretical for a 308 or any of the modern, shouldered cartridges, but that's just the way it seems to work with the heavies.
Alright 👍 WOOO!!! Coupon tests!!!
Haha! Never expected a response like that. I thought it would be more like . . . NOOO!!! Coupon tests!!!😄 Thanks!
I saw a video that had a volatility vs. hardness chart or how hard a bullet should be for how fast it is . As you would expect the faster also the harder it should be .
But that was what the video was about and what hardness you need for low to high . I wish I could remember where I saw it . I was looking for the mix for .45 ACP .
And they also talked about the thumbnail hardness test the old timers used . Most of the time I just buy them ready to go copper jackets is the easy way to go , but
cost about 2 times as much . If I find it I'll save it for ya .
Hi Spencer. I've seen that as well, but don't know where. If you find it please let me know.
The 45-70 is a picky son of a gun.My Ruger No.1 will shoot about as accurate as you can get,but a 320 grain bullet is the ultimate.Any lighter,any heavier will make my 75 yard groups go from 1.5 to over 4 inch groups.Some calibers just like a certain bullet weight.And the "spitzer" calibers are no exception.My all time favorite round,the 25-06 in a Ruger 77 will shoot hole in hole at 100 yards with 117 grain Hornady.Anything else can be as much as 3 inch groups.I know penetration and deflection were the basis for this video,but accuracy is always the main goal.Great video and interesting as always ,thanks for uploading.
You are right on about picky. I had a 25-06 Rem 700 back in the 70's. It would only shoot the 100 grainers.
@@TargetSuite I probably should have never mentioned the numbers 25-06 in a lever gun video ,just had to throw that in there lol
No worries. Good to hear from you.
Interested in seeing another fella do a similar test, did sound like you used all the correct terminology , I use stuff like fatter flat nose bullets lol, Great video came to the same conclusion, although my low velocity went through 11 gallons of water and a high velocity only went through three didn’t have any watermelons, using a 450 grain bullet out of a 1886 Winchester in caliber 50-110 wcf
A guy like me trying to pronounce a French word like meplat. . . Haha! I just ordered some .459" 450 grainers from Montana Bullet Company. They have a profile with a shorter flat nose that should chamber in my 1886. Case capacity will suffer because it will seat deep in the case, but I'm looking at lower velocity stuff anyway. You got me curious about the 50-110 penetration. I'll look up your video.
Target Suite The video camera was using wasn’t all that great but the results were pretty spectacular th-cam.com/video/mnNH0EAtRx8/w-d-xo.html
That's unbelievable. That expanded bullet looks like it's almost as big as a golf ball! It would make a mess out of one pig shot end to end. But the black powder load would anchor three adult pigs lined up nose to tail. Hmmm . . . 😉
Good stuff. No doubt the high vel round will still give plenty of penetration for hunting Elk or even Moose...but the energy dump will really disrupt some tissue! It also appears the bullets are not so brittle as to shatter....a really good sign that Cast Performance knows what they are doing.
Curious if you've ever used Beartooth Bullets? They make outstanding large meplat cast bullets...all the way up to 525gr in 45 cal.
I have not used any Beartooth stuff yet. I'll check them out.
I tried some 500grn hard caste through at about 1200 fps through about a 18 inch block of hard wood and found them bullets just lying on the grass between 10 and 20 ft behind the target . The bullets were not deformed at all. Its looking like you need some where between your two loads to start the mushrooming . Im using felt wads and a cardboard patch instead of Gas checks and seemed to be getting better accuracy .
I've read a little about the felt and cardboard. I wonder if that would also help the lower power loads with Varget powder to be more consistent? Thought?
@@TargetSuite A couple of years ago when i first got into shooting 45/70 I bought a set of dies and other gear from a guy who built replica fire arms and supplied a lot of gear to black powder and cowboy action shooters. he chucked in the felt wads for free and recommended ADI2208 (varget) or 2207 which is the next step faster and aim for a FPS between 1400-1500. he was not wrong and I havnt been able to beat this for accuracy. The 2207 powder left the barrel a bit cleaner but for accuracy they were both good. the wad helps fill the case they are about the size of a foam ear plug.I dont think you could use them for trail boss or the like as you would run out of room in the case . one of the advantages of the wads is that it holds the powder on the primer and gives a more consistent burn.
The consistent burn is what I was asking about. You could tell from the chrono test that the light load was wildly variable. With the hotter loads the powder is compressed and it burns clean and consistent. Not so with light charges of Varget. I spent way to much energy developing the hotter loads. Now I really need to do more work in that 1400-1500 range. Thanks!
Very nice informative video , live ,shoot and learn ,now in realistic setting how do we apply what we’ve just learned ? PS. Question for you sir , which Go pro camera do you use , clarity and color was excellent !
That is a great question. If I were to summarize, I'd say first and foremost make sure you have a clear view of your target. That precludes shooting through thick brush at an animal that you can't see well. Then, if you hunt with one of the cartridges that showed significant deflection, make even more sure that there aren't any twigs, limbs or vines in the way. Last, if you hunt in thick cover where shots are fairly short and haven't yet bought a rifle, get a large bore rifle in a cartridge like 444 Marlin or 45-70 and shoot heavy, very hard cast bullets, because they showed the least deflection in my tests. I hope that was helpful. Oh, my GoPro is a Hero 8.
Target Suite thank you sir for this very helpful reply , I enjoy your channel and your very humble attitude on your videos ,,, thanks again 👍
Thank you Johannes! One thing I forgot to mention was the importance of a large meplat, or wide flat nose on those very hard cast bullets. Without it, even the venerable 45-70 bullets tend to deflect. If you don't mind me asking, are you one of my international viewers?
Target Suite no sir , Florida . Immigrated with my parents from the Netherlands in 1957 , I was 4 years old PS. I shoot a considerable amount of rifles and also have win.1886 in 45-90 and 45-70 but not overly familiar with the projectiles that you were using , I have been using bullets with the plastic tip or feeding them in one by one because of ignition problems loading in tube
Sorry, didn't mean to assume😄 but I am trying to get to know some of my viewers, especially those from other countries. I've had some interesting (good) conversations. As to the cast bullets, I was pretty ignorant about cast bullet technology until I bought my 1886. It's a whole new world for me too.
You have a great channel thanks. I have c Marlin 444 since 1991 never a hiccup. I served thirty years in the United States Army almost twenty in the Ranger Regiment I retired in 2010. So I never shot it all that much. It's not a fun rifle to shoot because of the recoil. I always keep all my rifles and shotguns super clean and I have a good selection of rifles and shotguns.. I recently put a scope on the piece shoots great and no issues with it. My problem was the bolt wouldn't push the hammer all the way to and got hung up until I manually moved the hammer all the way down. It was a fraction of a inch. I dry fired if and it was fine. I ran it a few more times and it hunt up again. So I took it apart and cleaned it again no more issues. Even with the malfunction it still fired accurate. I ordered new springs for the bolt. Any ideas why this would happen. I hope I made myself clear. Again I'm glad I found your channel. I don't like taking lever guns apart. Always a hassle for me anyway. Thanks in advance if you have any idea what the issue was.
Sorry, I can't picture your hang up.
Thanks for at least reading it. It's very hard to explain without pictures. Basically the bolt wouldn't push the hammer all the way back. I had to pull the hammer back a fraction of a inch so the bolt would open all the way. Anyway it's fixed and I got some spare parts for the bolt. Maybe with this explanation you might understand what I mean. Thanks for responding. God bless you and yours!
Got it. Glad you got it working. Thanks for the comments!
I think you're right on the edge of having more fun than the law allows.
I also think that the wider meplat and harder cast is why you're having more success, more so than the distance differential. Look at what Elmer Keith had to say about WFNGC bullettos... That wider, sharper, harder edge reduces deflection. Personally, at the bullet weight you're using, I'd go with the lower velocity, maybe 1,550 - 1,600 fps or so and call it good. It's also easier on old, injured necks and semi-loose teeth. :))
Shhh! It's a job . . . all hard work😉 I like the lower velo's, not because of loose teeth, but because those full house loads make my nose run and eyes water😄
@@TargetSuite Loose teeth follows runny noses and watery eyes. It's a thing. :))
I was afraid of that!
@@TargetSuite If you haven't yet, you might want to check out Garret Cartridges. Ashley Emerson has some interesting thoughts on round-ish .44 (more like .43) and .45 caliber things made out of various types of lead sitting on top of various amounts of powder. www.garrettcartridges.com/44mag45colt.html
Enjoy your job.
I actually put two links in the description to articles by Randy Garrett. He is a wealth of good, solid information. Thanks.
I started reloading about a year ago only for big bore rifles. Marlin 444 3006 88mm and 308 the rest I buy. 556 , 762x39 I just started reloading 300 gr bullets for the Marlin . With the scope I can hit 200 yards consistently. I always second guessed myself for not getting the 45/70. However anything I shot with the 444 dropped. I don't hunt anymore because of wounds sustained while in service and I don't like the blood sport anymore. But I can still shoot. Also pro hunting
Meant 8mm
Hey, the 444 Marlin is no slouch. I drooled over adds for that rifle back when I was a kid. I'd love to have one today. . . just for shooting. I don't hunt much any more either.
It would be interesting to see what could be done with a cryo-treated barrel. Typically, in my experience, I've realized a 50 - 70 fps gain from handguns and cleaning became ridiculously easy. At 50 yards, groups tightened up by about 1/2 inch. I've not tried this with any of my lever guns. But I'd rather pursue this than paint the trim on the house.
Interesting thought. Not sure many have gone to that length with a lever gun barrel. Hmmm🤔
Something I've always kind of wondered about is, when working up a handload how do you test for chamber pressure? I know you can get lots of loading data from handloading books, but what if you wanted to work up your own loads from scratch, like in the case of a wildcat round you're developing, without exceeding the limits of the barrel's tested capacity? Is there some sort of gauge or mathematical formula to check or calculate pressure? I've done a little handloading in the past but always just stuck to handbook recommendations.
That kind of load development is over my head. I mostly stick with published data. In the absence of published data i just pick a combination that is similar and has data, start very low and work my up until pressure signs start to show.
The gas check is to prevent the bullet bases obturating from higher pressure loads, like what you're getting at 1800 fps+
I've been shooting Beartooth Bullets 525 and 425 gr Piledriver and PD Junior for a few years, getting very good accuracy at ~1620 - 1625 fps for both
How do you like the Skinner? I've got XS on mine, and mounted RPP on my son's 1895. Never tried Skinner.
Thanks Brian. I have been experimenting a little with lower velos and like what I see so far. Lots of work to do and so little time.😜
To heat treat lead bullets they need to contain antimony (think wheel weights) and antimony creates a crystaline matrix. That means that the bullet will maintain shape to a certain velocity before it collapses, like an egg shell does. It's hard, no doubt, but has its limits.
Thanks!
I have two types of cast bullets I use, hard cast (18-20bn) for higher target volume and, for large animal self protection. For hunting I use much softer lead around 7-10bn wheel weights with pure lead added and "powder coated " to stop leading and I drive them plus P in my 45 colt and upper trapdoor fps 45-70s. Unless you strike somthing solid, too hard cast will zip through, softer lead will still smash but dump all its energy inside with a nice ball of mushroomed lead....food for thought, I have hunted and taken elk, deer and bears with 100 pure lead round balls from a 54 and 58 cal muzzle loader, normally found the big lump of lead just under the hide in the far side with lot of evident lethality in their wake.
Great comment! Thanks! I had dreamed of getting a 45-70 for sixty years when I picked up that 1886. Initially most of my shooting was with jacketed bullets but eventually I caught the "hard cast" craze and began exploring the high end power potential of that rifle/cartridge combo. Now I realized there is so much more to cast bullets than speed, and softer/slower is one of those areas I hope to explore down the road. I just need more hours in the day😄
@@TargetSuite enjoy your videos, I wouldn't change your content at all , the mix of tips and tricks to performance testing is spot on, I have had my 1886 for 30 years and never had it completely stripped down untill after watching your video on your 1886 disassembly, my 1886 started out as a 33 Winchester, I bought it as a worn out broken wood clunker, after a few years I rebarred, re blued and new wood with a Williams peep sight, I have other 45-70s as well but the 86 is still in its own class!
Thank you so much. You comment gets to the very reason I do TH-cam!
Where can one find a flat meplat bullet mould that can make bullets like the two shown in the intro to this clip?
Look for LBT (Lead Bullet Technology) Molds. They have a website. Good luck!
I'm shooting ALOX lubed Lee 340 grain 45/70 cast from range scrap @ 12 - 14 BHN out of my 1886 at 1250 fps. Unfortunately I don't have the same 'testing facility' as you and would be interested to see how they compare.
So many options out there. I wish I could test them all. Thanks for the comment!
What lube do they use on the Cast Performance bullets? Is it an Alox coating or something? After all, all of the Cast Performance bullets I have ever seen in videos, do not have lube in the lube grooves.
They don't specify what it is. The MidwayUSA link calls it a "special lube process used by Cast Performance produces a clear, dry lube, which is barely noticeable on the bullets". You can't "feel" anything so my guess is that it's a baked on coating. But just a guess. Thanks for the comment!
Do you ever go to American Shooting Centers? Would be cool to meet you out there one weekend. I live in Richmond, so it's a pretty close drive for me.
And what part of LA? We have family land near St Francisville/Jackson.
When I'm in Houston, I do shoot at ASC. It's a long drive from far NW Harris county, but it's worth it. I have been spending most of my time since the virus at our farm which is close to Natchitoches. My range there is much better😉
@@TargetSuite - Dad's from a bit north of you in Webster parish, most of his clan still lives around Spring Hill, Sarepta, Plain Dealing. Love the Christmas lights in Natchitoches, haven't been that way in years and years and years. A close family friend used to run the LSU pecan experiment station up there.
I only go to ASC cuz it's close and I can't ever seem to get the timing right to join one of the private clubs. Other than that, the boys and I do a monthly shoot out in Columbus, guests always welcome, only $10, stay as long as you want, shoot as much as you want. We have targets out to 1000 yds, and I always bring a lot of AR500.
Don't know if you've ever seen the channel "Mark and Sam after work," a couple from down in Oz. One of his vids, he's shooting the FTX 325s right at a mile. Seems like he was holding about 300' over, and accounting for maybe 100-120' of wind and spin drift. Came within a short and curly of hitting a 2'x2' target several times. Very cool stuff if you haven't seen it.
Thanks Brian. What kind of facility is in Columbus. I'd like to check it out at some point.
@@TargetSuite - it's a private range, we only have it on 1 saturday a month. looks like they do a lot of cowboy action there, as most of the under-100-yards stuff is for lead only.
👍
never assume everyone's watched previous vids. This is my first one since Buffalo's outdoors recommended you.
Love that rifle... that's what a real rifle should be like. these kids can keep their high tech toys. They can't do anything any better than that rifle does, faster maybe, but better, doubtful, probably not even as well in brushy country. I used a 3030 Model 94 for years, it was an old but well cared for 50's version handed down from my father... my brother has it now and I won't be getting it back. No way he'll let it go now. Back in the day, I could hit anything within 200 to 300 yards with it, tho most think that's not doable with a 30 30, all I have to say about that is they've never really used one. I knew a old guy...(now I'm the old guy) that had a 30 30 with a clapped out barrel ... but while most couldn't hit anything with it, you certainly wouldn't want him taking aim at your butt with it, he'd hit it first try.
Well said! I grew up killing deer in the Texas brush with an old model 94 my grandpa give me. Now days because of the hog population I use an AR15 in 7.62x39. It basically is ballistically a 30-30. It is an ideal cartridge for hogs and deer in my book. I still prefer my levers and revolvers. Even though I am as old as dirt....it is Glocks and AR's now. Just because of the volume of fire. Texas is a hog war zone👍🇺🇸
Thanks for watching. Buffalo's Outdoors has really bless my channel with the shout out. You are right about the high tech toys, but I think it has generated, as one guy said, a "pray and spray" mentality with some new shooters. Btw, in those other videos I "assumed" everyone had watched, the 30-30 got praised and trashed in the comments. But the truth is, if the shooter stays within his and the cartridge's capabilities it is a great, and better yet, historic round. I would be proud to own one! Thanks for the comment
@@TargetSuite like I put in one of my books, you've got to know all that the weapon is capable of, and all you're capable of. Fact is, i don't think most of the younger generation can actually shoot. They have to have red dots or scopes or some such. Yeah, I think it's hilarious in tv and movies when they spray magazine after magazine, but never hit who they're aiming at, while the good guy with just a hand gun takes them out, one shot at a time.
Got to ask . . . are you an author? And by the way, I figured out where your channel image came from. I can't think of the name off the top of my head, but I remember it was a great escape movie.
@@TargetSuite If writing and publishing over 30 books makes me an author, then I guess I am. I never made much money at it tho.
actually, that image was a stock image they offered long ago when I signed up. Never did anything with my channel, had great plans but they didn't materialize at that time, I was too busy either writing and editing or editing for hire, then it was restoring vintage lighters for a client, at which I made like 2k in a month. Not bad for a side job. I got my Imac in trade for editing.. but it's bit the dust, and so has my editing and photo software with it. Now I use a rinky dink HP laptop, that does little, and I'm too cheap to pay the exhorbitant price they want for Microsoft office, especially since I only need word, but you can't buy word separately now.
So now I don't write or edit, or make covers or anything in that vein. I was a pretty darn good editor, actually better editor than writer so I've ben told.
I have found that shooting 1300-1450 range the best performance also. I cast my own 400 gr bullets from recovered wheel weights and they are the perfect consistency to me. They are not that hard but they stay together really well. As a matter of fact I've been doing this since I was about 10 years old with my father. He has passed but taught me a lot about ballistics over the years. That was in 1963, man that has been a long time ago. Hopefully I have done as good a job but I kinda doubt it. In this throw away world of today kids don't have the same sense of doing with what you can get.
@TBull Sounds like some great memories with your dad. By the way, I love your channel pic. Great idea😉
How do you find the leading with the cast performance? I've had a lot of leading form their bullets with the "clear lube" in 45 colt, no gas-checks. They're probably softer, being branded as "cowboy loads". But I think I'm getting gas cutting and leading even with Trailboss (specially in revolvers with more freebore, which makes sense). I don't even dare to put them through a 92 for fear of complex takedown to get the lead remover through it.
My hunch is that cast performance's "clear lube," may just be none at all. I still hold on to them to use as counter weights for lighting equipment, and may one day tumble lube them myself, if there's nothing better to load.
Frankly, I've had leading "problems" with every manufacturer except Montana Bullet Works gas check bullets. But my cast bullet experience is relatively limited compared to guys like Fortunecookie45lc. As to the '92, I did post a video to help with disassembly/reassembly. It's not too hard . . . th-cam.com/video/8yF6X_GKlLU/w-d-xo.html
@@TargetSuite Thanks for that 92 video, that'll be really helpful! Fortunecookie45lc make some great content too in that hot lead zone of his.
Yep. He's one of my favorites.
I have used hard cast 357 I like them, but not 45/70 this was neat.
Thanks. I appreciate the comment!
Amazing how much difference in penetration depth between the two velocities. How much of that difference is from bullet expansion must be addressed. Maybe dangerous game monolithic solids can answer that question.
Hi Richard. No doubt the expansion cut down on penetration. I'm going to try and get some harder bullets and retest some day. They may shatter on the "hard" skins of the watermelons, probably not. But the really super hard cast bullets have been accused, right or wrong, of shattering on bone. I really want to test that. Thanks for your comment. From the little I have read about the DG solids, they don't have the sharp cornered meplat of cast bullets and therefore tend to make a caliber sized permanent wound channel. The large meplat, if it stays intact will carry a much bigger wound channel through the target. Thanks for the comment. Much more "work" to be done
@@TargetSuite all you say is true, but zero expansion is the factor that needs to be held consistent in order to determine the relationship between velocity and penetration depth. Last I looked Beartooth Bullets claim a consistant brinell hardness number of 21 as well as the widest melplat available.
I'll check out Beartooth Bullets and see if I can get some to test. Thanks!
It is fun!
👍👍👍
I had issues with the 430 grain hardcast bullets at 1900fps from Buffalo Bore. They didn't penetrate deep in 2x10 boards, they were out penetrated by 300 win mag Accubonds. Too high velocity is the problem. They should not be pushed beyond 1700 fps.
Yep. I've learned a lot since I made this video. Still plan to do a "slow speed" version some day.
@@TargetSuite I would like to do that too. Check out my 45-70 playlist when you have a chance if you would like to see my test results. Great channel thanks for doing these tests.
I watched your penetration test. Good job. And you nailed it on the speed issue with hard cast bullets!
@@TargetSuite thanks for watching I am editing a test I did with expanding bullets right now should come out over the weekend
Man, now I need to test my hard cast out of my 444! They're 300 gr going 2180 FPS.
Yep, that's bookin' it! Let me know what you find out.
you should experiment with powder coating those cast bullets. This is my next learning goal for 9mm,38 cal,300, and 45-70
They are coated with something that seems to be baked on. So they may already come powder coated (clear). Maybe someone who knows will jump in.
@@TargetSuite ok thought these were just cast without any coating and lubed with alox type groove lube
👍👍👍
Do you by chance use reloader 7?
I haven't tried that powder yet.
The Mythbusters guys demonstrated quite decisively that water stops bullets. And faster bullets disintegrate more quickly. Water jugs have become something of a standard amongst the gun channels because they are entertaining. But they don't really tell you much about a bullet's actual performance. Water is great for testing expansion.
I'm also fascinated by the brush test. Unfortunately, there are so many variables it's impossible to say how much effect any one factor had.
Yep, the water jugs are just an affordable medium that can give "relative" information, and they are entertaining. I do have ballistic gel on my wish list. As the channel grows I'll be able to add some real testing to the content. Thanks again for all your comments!
@@TargetSuite I like the testing you do, not sure gel would add anything of value. I just felt the need to point out that the water jugs aren't a penetration test. I tend to be pedantic like that.
Haha! Had to look that one up.
@@TargetSuite sorry, didn't mean to give you a vocabulary quiz first thing in the morning. I like using interesting words. It's one of the things that makes me super popular on forums. I'm also a grammar nazi and a rare example of a semantics nazi. Good thing I'm so pretty or I wouldn't have any friends.
That's funny. I think Forrest Gump said "Pretty is as pretty does". So you should be ok.
Every time he says coupon take a shot of liquor
Please also ask them to subscribe early 😄
He has a different presentation, but when he showed that box of.458 I was all ears and eyes.
Thanks? I guess?😄 Just trying to keep it real. People would eventually figure out I wasn't a cool, knows everything, tactical dude anyway. Thanks for the comment Robert. I've got lots more .458 on the horizon😉
3 BHN variation is pretty normal if you are air cooling. If you heat treat the whole batch simultaneusly, it is easy to be +/1 BHN. However, even if you are dead on, trinary lead alloys have an attribute that would make it foolish to publish exact Brinell ratings. Specifically, they age harden, then age soften by about that range. The amount and rate varies with exact alloy and degree of heat treat. Lead alloys also are work softening. So you can soften your bullet just by crimping it. CATV Canada has a good series showing the age effects on alloys over long term observation if you are curious.
Sorry for the late reply. I would be interested in how age affects cast bullet alloys. This hardening/softening cycle . . . does it happen over weeks, months or years?
@@TargetSuite In the first week, lead will harden by about 1 BHN. Then it will very gradually increase by another 2-3 BHN over about a year IIRC, then start gradually softening back down to around the original hardness over more years.
www.lasc.us/Fryxell_Book_Chapter_3_alloySelectionMetallurgy.htm
TATV Canada on youtube has a series on testing it.
unfortunately most bullet casters haven't been precise, and generally use vague terms like "hard cast" and "soft." I've only ever seen data tracking alloys more suitable for magnum pistol and for things like your 45-70. The evidence indicates that different alloys are affected at different rates.
Awesome! Thanks for that article! I'll chew on that for days!
@@TargetSuite There are several good articles by Fryxell. If you search LASC and his name you will get them.
He very thoroughly explains the conventional uses of cast lead. The thing I want to communicate is that a lot of what people say can't be done with cast is because they aren't willing to do things differently than their normal process and alloy, or control all the variables that are relevant. Fryxell shows how to do things very competently in the lower pressure range and is very thorough about explaining the behavior of the conventional binary and trinary alloys. Almost no one has done any serious testing about the behaviors of other trinaries or of alloys with copper.
I think the field is rich for cast bullets which can handle full jacketed pressure range, but almost no one has tried with alloys which might be appropriate. Powder coating has completely eliminated the problems associated with leading or the limitations of conventional lube. This means that it is now far easier to tune a bullet to the pressures and stresses of higher rotational velocity, since the bullet doesn't need to compromise for as many functions. There is a lot of work left to do, because essentially no one has tried, and there is a lot of error left in the trial and error process before a few workable alloys are discovered. As you go up the BHN scale, the alloy cost goes up, and so do issues with crystaline structures. So the goal is to find something that casts consistently and holds a stable ~36 BHN, without being excessively costly as an alloy. Pure tin will do it, except for the last factor. Babbit alloys get there, but most of them are specifically formulated to grow crystals. We want homogenous distribution of weight.
Wow! That sounds like a great project. But an alloy that is low cost, easy to cast, and 36 BHN almost sounds like "unobtainium". Are you actively working on this, or just thinking about the possibilities?
IMO what happened is that at the higher velocity the stress on the hardened bullet was more than a bullet of that hardness could withstand. Had it been harder so it would not deform perhaps it too would have penetrated farther into the targets. My 2 cents worth.
Hi John. There is a lot of "magic" going on with terminal performance. If only I had a "real" high speed camera 😉
15-1600 fps is about optimum performance penetration with heavy hard cast bullets
Hi James. I plan to redo that whole series in the future with slower speeds in mind. Thanks!
I am using 405 gr HC bullets (18 BHN) at 1660 avg muzzle velocity. Great accuracy but haven’t done testing like this yet.
Heavy and slow works best, 1895G all i have are 405, 1 box lever edge and one of 500 solid copper.
👍👍👍
Ther is a term i have heard old gun smiths say .i takes over 50 yards for a bullet to go to sleep " stablize "
And they are right. A test like this would be much more difficult at that scale.
I would take the expansion of the higher velocity. I hunt deer or hogs, they are not that long. Exploding all that energy with an increasing diameter projectile is the way to go IMHO
I have to confess, when I first got the Winchester 1886 45-70 I was obsessed with stories of extreme penetration and was on a campaign to duplicate them. For my patrons, I even set up one of the recently killed hogs and shot him end to end and captured the bullet in a line of water jugs. Fun, but not really practical as you pointed out. Still, I have dreams of a dozen hogs standing shoulder to shoulder at the corn, and me there with my 45-70 and a handloaded hard cast bullet😄 Seriously, thanks for the comment. It's a special treat to hear from one of my subscribers.
I see others comments and wonder? Do you guys really know why your using cast or solid copper projectiles. Or are you just having, my answer is ( Giants of Kandahar) the answer may sound stupid but think last days!
Hi George. I didn't really understand your comment, but I like the wide flat nose bullets because they are uniquely capable of deep, straight line penetration and making a decent permanent wound channel. Old technology that still competes well with the new. Thanks.
i am going to work on catching my brass after i shoot, that is just too cool.lol.
Be patient and wait on the brass to fall. Just my $.02 😄
George, edgeecate me here....what is so special about loading cast bullets rather than just loading regular bullets. Just a lot cheaper? As far as deflection, I think what you have proven is that the closure the coupon is to the intended target the less deflection on target. Which makes just about any rifle bullet a brush gun. In a hunting scenario if one sees a hog or deer at 100yds, I would hope that person would think twice about shooting through brush located 20yds from the end of the muzzle. I doubt seriously the intended target would even be touched. However, if one were to shoot at a deer or hog at 100yds and there were branches in the way 5ft from the target I'm pretty sure the intended area aimed at would be hit. If it were me doing this test, I would have my steel plate at 100yds and if I could hit it with open sights, great. Benchmark has been established. I would put my first coupon at 25yds and see if I could ring steel. I'm betting it doesn't. Then at 50yds, still no. 75yds, eh, maybe. A few feet from target, definitely. Maybe a scoped 30-30 might work better. Anyway, that is just my thoughts. Great video. Can't begin to tell you how beautiful that rifle is. 6 more days til Tuesday.
That's a really good question. In the beginning, for me, it was cost because the Acme bullets I featured last year are really cheap. But as I started learning more about cast bullets I realized that as performance "needs" go up, so does the cost of the cast bullets that can deliver, to the point that it is a toss up between good jacketed bullets and good cast bullets. But where the "good" cast bullets excel is in penetration. And the combination of a good hard cast bullet with a wide nose provides deeeeep penetration plus a decent full length wound channel. Not a big deal for a broadside or quartering shot on one of our piney woods deer or pigs, but for bigger, or dangerous game that others are interested in, that's a big deal. But back to your original question . . . if it were just me and my own personal needs, the Hornady 350gr soft point would be the perfect bullet😉 It's always good to hear from you. I hope we can have coffee some day when I am passing through Woodville.
We certainly can. How can I contact you with email and phone number information? Look forward to it.
You can message me on Instagram (Target Suite). I'm pretty sure that's private. If you don't do Instagram I also have a Target Suite facebook. You could message me there. Just let me know because I never check that.
will do.
George, I message you on FB. Hope to hear from you. Texting is fine.
high velocity= less penetration when the point was deformed. I guess monolithic bullets are the way to go instead hard cast..
Randy Garrett has shown that even without deformation higher velocity means less penetration. I linked that article in the description. But when you add deformation to the mix like in this test, the penetration is reduced dramatically. Thanks for the comment.
Well that sucks. I watched that as I lay in bed, the night before my bear hunt, using the same bullet, going fast 🤣
Haha! Just hit the same hole with the second shot, then you'll be ok!
@@TargetSuite 🤣🤣🤣 didnt go as planned
My 4590 sends 390 grains at 1300 fps
I started out a year and a half ago seeking faster, faster, faster. While there is still fun to be had in that realm, it's just unnecessary fro most of my applications. So I am, like you, pursuing slower velocities these days. Easier to load, easier on the hardware, and easier on me! Thanks for the comment.
@@TargetSuite there is not anthing i would be afraid to shoot with my loads penatrates as well as my 338 lapua on round bales complet pass through 1500 lb bales
You are way ahead of me understanding the 45 cal big bore potential. I spent the better part of my first year with the 1886 seeking maximum velocity thinking it would give me maximum performance. Because of helpful comments like yours, I have learned otherwise. Thanks!
@@TargetSuite that was suposed to be 2300 fps
I am starting to think you like pain. Shooting that traditional Winchester 45-70 with any normal load is bad enough but using plus P loads got to hurt more. The steel hooked shape but plate is a better weapon than a rifle butt. I think that was the idea in mind when they made those things anyway. I get great enjoyment seeing you shoot that thing and knowing what it feels like. I never thought the need for a gun to shoot thru a small tree to hunt with was important. Well it is obvious you are the go to guy if a rogue elephant escapes from the Zoo or Circus and crosses you yard intent on doing you harm. Not to worry about me, I have a Winchester 338 stoked with big bullets too. However it has good recoil pad and might be little less painful to shoot. Funny thing is this professional hunter named W.D.M. Bell shot hundreds of elephants dead with a 7x57 Mauser and 175gr bullets. Buffalo Bill killed 4,280 Buffalo in 8 months using black power and cast bullets and got his name. One of my good friends had to have a 375 H&H magnum I built. It shot 300gr bullets under an inch and that was no easy feat to do off a bench loaded to the max. He finally got it and I built the 338 with the money he gave me. That thing came back and the scope clocked him over the eye and detached the retina in his eye. He recovered luckily, but it ended him shooting big bores on a regular basis. Just something to think about playing with big bore rifles.
Haha! I think they designed that crescent but plate so you could ride a galloping horse, hold and shoot the rifle with one hand on the reins and rifle wouldn't slip off your shoulder and break your jaw. Not a lot of technology there that carries forward to the 21st century. Seriously (just for a moment) shooting from the bench is tough, but for this video I raised the rest quite a bit and it wasn't as bad. Standing up, no problem, even with the steel but plate. Never thought the channel would have so much big bore stuff, but I'm looking at a Ruger Gunsite Scout in 450BM or a Winchester 94 TE takedown in that same caliber. Makes for good TH-cam content. Btw, I've got a friend who is going to send me a 338 Win Mag for some videos. I'm really looking forward to that one. Thanks for the comments.
@@TargetSuite Hold on tight they are black eye making machines.
Yep. I've heard it's a beast.
@@TargetSuite I am a fan of the 338 cartridge because it is accurate and uses powder efficiently. However, it produces serious recoil with heavy bullets. If you want a powerful cartridge that shoots five 250gr Sierra boat tails under an inch look no further. Don’t expect these results from factory loaded ammo and the bullets cost a fortune alone. However, they are naturally accurate and you are not going want to shoot a lot of ammo up in one sitting. I do not recommend getting a lightweight rifle with a poorly designed stock either. Look for a proper fitting stock and oversized butt pad. Most big bore rifles have an additional recoil lug on the barrel, mine doesn’t but some do. I used a Brown Precision fiberglass stock. This is not to be confused with molded plastic stocks. Truly there are Worlds apart and cost a ton of money. They are stronger and absorb recoil like a sponge. My stock weighs under two pounds and the rifle is under ten pounds complete with scope, 26-inch #5 contour barrel and Sako 75 action. It is on the light side but not a problem. Had this rifle since 1983. Do you really need a 338, well not really. Killed two bears and four deer with 6 bullets. It likely would drop an elephant if it had to. You could likely do the same with a 45-70 too. In my mind shooting a 45-70 with one hand riding a horse sounds like bad judgement to me. If you ever fell off a horse you would rethink that idea, I promise you that cowboy.
@Gizmo Carr I'm not sure about the configuration of the 338 that I might get to "review". If it's a lightweight Savage 110, my round count will go down, way down. If it's on an appropriate "scale" my round count (at over $2.00/shot) will still go down. Btw, I'm a Mule guy (M274 type). Never had much use for horses. Lol! Thanks again for the comments.
There are other terms for bundles of sticks....
Yes, but none would generate as many comments as "coupon" 😄 Thanks for your comments.
@@TargetSuite The term I was thinking of might generate hostility.
Haha! I get it! I'll stick with coupon😉