ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 5 ก.ย. 2024
- This week we’re taking a break from skincare ingredients, and we’re talking about products. Specifically, toners! Toners will forever be a land of mystery. This category seems to always ends up in the spotlight, there are too many to choose from, and the claims can be all over the place. We decided to break down the product landscape, discuss some of the most popular toners of 2024, and weigh in on which toners we would want to use in our routine. It’s toner time!
2:09 | What is a Toner?
6:40 | Part 1 - Water-Based Toners
24:17 | Part 2 - Milky Toners & Toners We Would Use
Product Shoutout:
Aquafix Hydrating & Soothing Water Gel
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Enrichment Content:
How to Choose the Right Exfoliating Toner
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Chemists’ Introductory Guide to Skincare Fundamentals and Building a Routine
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Yes, this was helpful! I found toners to be a confusing and all-over-the-place category, and this has been comforting, because I`m not the only one!
phew! that's great to hear!
I’d love a video on the newer and more novel retinoids, particularly HPR (hydroxypinacolone retinoate) and retinyl retinoate! I know Medik8 makes a retinyl retinoate product and I’d love your thoughts on these compounds
Skin Rocks (Caroline Hiron's brand) does a couple. DRMTLGY has a HPR eye cream as well. And of course The Ordinary and Minimalist have them for less money.
It’s funny that you missed the protease for the sugarcane, because I think round lab’s marketing has shifted in this exact direction over time…2 years ago when I tried it, their marketing was all about their “patented HATCHING EX-07” (protease) but consumer and influencer discourse only focuses the sugarcane. I thought I was crazy, but revisiting their website they’ve completely shifted away from highlighting protease and highlight sugarcane as an exfoliant 😂
ahaha ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
I have watched people test cleansers and a lot them on the American market are closer to 8 which is alkaline
I noticed that my skin improved when I used cleansers that were 6 or 6.5
(I have oily skin - 30 years old)
I really enjoy toners/essences, but I'm with you on their role as a supporting product. I never expect my toners to dramatically change my skin. As far as product categories, it feels like most categories overlap (toner vs. essence vs. serum vs. ampule) in that marketing labeling has made the labels misleading. In that sense I feel you'll run into similar issues as what you experienced here with different categories with the exception of the core cleanser, moisturizer, sunscreen steps. What might be very interesting though would be pros and cons of addressing specific goals using different product categories. For example I don't need much exfoliation and I don't like leave on products as a result, so I do 95% of my exfoliation with a powder enzyme cleanser (once or twice a week) and the remaining via wash off masks I can use if I ever feel congested. Others may want a reliable serum, or toner as you addressed in this video, while some could use an exfoliating night mask or moisturizer. There may be pros and cons to consideration on each of these routine steps (is an exfoliating moisturizer going to be effective if you apply it after a 10 step skincare routine, or will an exfoliating serum with certain ingredients be effective if you just used 4 layers of toner and are following up 4 seconds later with another product). This gives the opportunity to introduce different product categories into the discussion points while keeping the discussion high level, but also lets you steer people into the "skin goals" direction that is likely to help out.
Btw I'm a recent subscriber just starting to look through the backlog of podcasts, so if this has already been done please disregard and I'm sure I'll wander across it in the coming months.
I’m reading Paula Begoun’s (Paulas Choice, Beautypedia) book The Best Skincare of Your Life and it says on page 40 in a chapter about the functions of different kinds of product about toners that:
“What we now know is that after cleansing, your skin needs a range of ingredients to restore and repair its surface. A liquid toner can instantly give a generous dose of these important substances in a way that moisturizers can’t (lotion and cream moisturizers work in a different manner than liquids. Plus, you can’t give your skin too much of these important ingredients, which include antioxidants and skin-repairing substances such as glycerin, fatty acids, and ceramides.”
Goes on to mention toners can provide a bit of extra cleansing for missed areas.
Is there any substance that toners can be a better vehicle for certain skincare ingredients than lotion or cream moisturizers can?
Paula’s Choice brand has been a big proponent of toners (as well as AHA/BHA that exists in mainly toner format). I’m struggling to understand what is product marketing or real insight.
"toners" are all formulated so differently so we can't really say there are ingredients that do better in that vehicle. A few things to consider:
1. There are close to no toners on the market that'll give you a "generous dose" of these ingredients. They're mostly there to support. The notable exception here are toners/waters that tout one superstar ingredient (eg anua heart leaf or I'd even classify SKII essence here)
2. Generally speaking, toners are mostly waters + glycols some with alcohol. The glycols + alcohol can help with some actives penetrate a bit better. But these ingredients aren't exclusive to toners. Many serums contain these ingredients as well. There are ingredients that exist better in lighter water-bases such as vitamin C ascorbic acid and glycolic acid. However, vitamin C is too fussy of an ingredient to exist in a large, transparent bottle - hence why it mainly comes in serum format. But AHA glycolic acid can be easily formulated in a light, water-based format. So our take is that it's not that there are active ingredients that "do best" in a toner format. It's that there are active ingredients that CAN actually exist in a toner format.
3. Lotions and creams have both oil-based and water-based ingredients. Some creams can be formulated with very sophisticated emulsion technology to help maximize active delivery. So strong disagree there that the statement seems to suggest that toners are better active delivery vehicles
Oof, this is a big text wall. While we don't really agree with the statement itself, toners can play a part in a well rounded routine. Whether or not it's a necessary step is highly dependent on your particular skin type, skin goals, and the rest of the products in your routine
@@ChemistConfessions thank you very much for your considered reply! I am struggling to figure out why Paula Begoun champions toners as an additional step in an advanced routine that “can provide truly amazing benefits for your skin” (p. 39). Especially as she already considers toner a separate step from AHA/BHA exfoliation.
For her an essential morning routine is 1) cleanser, 2) AHA/BHA, 3) moisturizer with sunscreen. An advanced routine also includes toner and treatment.
I’ve been trying to understand her perspective-I think her book The Best Skin of Your Life was published before adapalene because OTC. In addition the book has two other authors and I think was written after the Paula’s Choice brand was sold, but she maintained minority share and had control over formulary, research, relations with distributors etc. (at least according to a January 2022 Beauty Independent article, which was published after majority share was sold to a second company)
So I don’t know what is going into her writing. Why does she advocate exfoliants as part of an “essentials” routine for morning and night (twice daily)?
It sounds like that in regards to toners, the science might not be as strong as her advocacy. I did try to look at the four current Paula’s Choice toner offerings. And I don’t understand what exists in them that could not exist in another form like a lotion or cream. They contain antioxidants, soothing ingredients, niacinamide, hydrating ingredients. In some cases peptides or oils, plant extracts.
Anyway. Here is my own wall of text.
I love toners for layering my actives that I don’t like in other formats, for example, I started using a European Gluconolactone 15% toner after you guys mentioned its efficacy at acne (wich did wonder for me, better than mandeloc acid), and the only other format I could find at those levels are just creams
What is the name and brand of the toner? Thank you.
“Colour me shocked” 😂 you girls are adorable! And this was very helpful - thanks!
Thank you for covering this topic. I had been wondering about protease in toners as well as the new The Ordinary toner. This podcast helped me understand the ingredients.
Despite the viral toners like dokdo, haru haru, abib, anua etc, i find myself keep coming back to the make prem safe me relief essence toner. It's a simple toner but that is one of the few toner that actually quench my dehydrated skin. It also pairs well with my other barrier supporting products that i find my dehydration wasn't as severe as it used.
It's always interesting seeing different takes on toners so the video is appreciated. Every time I hear milky toner I keep seeing Dr. Idriss' short kind of ranting about them. I thought The Ordinary toner was also being billed as an exfoliating toner. And then you have the ilia base face milk that bills itself as an essence and light moisturizer.
I found this episode quite helpful! I love Victoria's reminder to shop by primary skin concern and I definitely agree toners are so confusing to the uninitiated. I appreciate Gloria being the wet blanket or as I like to call it, a healthy dose of reality 😂
Hi! I have been wondering about toners so this video is very timely. I do appreciate trying to categorize toners also so the topic is more manageable to talk about.
There are some very popular toners like this ones mentioned in this video that I just haven’t know how or if I should add them to my routine.
Do you think that it would boost the hydration power of toners to apply them over damp skin? Or is the high amounts of water already present in toners enough so that isn’t necessary?
Would it kind of be accurate to say that toners are kind of like the helpfulness of splashing water on the face? For someone with oily skin, are they any replacement for a moisturizer, or are they booster products only? Such as in a layering capacity adding water and some humectants?
Maybe it’s hard to answer as the toner category is so broad. It can even include toners with actives like AHA or BHA of high amounts of plant extracts which you recommend.
For the plant extract category, it sounds like even then that toners are possibly the less effective version of something such as has the science made version of the plant active ingredient instead of the active.
At the end of the day, I still feel very waffled about toners.
What about the toners with instructions to apply them three times like the Naturie Hatomugi toner? Why would that be necessary? I struggle to understand why wouldn’t the formulators just increase the percentage. Is it something to do with saturating the skin with water?
On a related note, is there truth to the claim that water can intensify the strength of actives? Why would that be? Should splashing my face with water be a part of my routine, or should I avoid having damp skin with certain actives?
Toners are there for people who like to complicate the things they are passionate about. The gamble of finding an obscure allergy among the dozens of botanical extracts probably excites a few people too. Another excuse to buy another toner!
So helpful. I have a moisturizing toner but honestly I never really use and the Ordinary 7% Glycolic toner for my chest and upper back which is the GOAT for body acne. I am more of a serum girlie. The Cerave Vitamin C and The Inkey List Q10 are my antioxidants for day and The Ordinary Resveratrol at night in my night cream.
What about using toner to mainly help subsequent actives penetrate better or to buffer powerful actives???
In my experienced i just introduced those "powerful actives" until i can tolerate them fully. For instance i was able to cleanse > 15%glycolic acid > 20% L ascorbic acid > .1 tretinoin and moisturiser.
And what actives would you want to penetrate better anyway
You miss talking about the Rhodes milky toner!! 😭
definitely a missed opportunity... i feel like that's the beginning of all these "milks"
Very helpful!
Very Informative, I learned so much, Thank You.
By the way have you done an animal fun fact on hippos yet? They seem like a strange beast
Is there a benefit of using toner to acidify the skin such as to use salicylic acid to help vitamin c penetrate better?
Does toners with alcohol have a place despite falling out of fashion, such as to strengthen the effects of AHA, BHA, vitamin c, etc?
There’s a section Skincare Decoded that recommends a humectants forward moisturizer as the only moisturizer oily skin might need. Is that basically a toner, or is there a line that separates a toner from humectant forward moisturizer? Not quite sure I understand what a moisturizer is
What do you both think about the Numbuzin nr 3 toner?