Don, thanks for all the work you put in on all these tests and thanks for sharing the results with us. You have definitely helped me decide which auto reverse unit I'm going to buy.
It's not a surprise since it' not relay based - so no interruption. My choice as a reverse and breaker module with the next advantage that it sets the turnout on the way out, but with the possibility to overrun with a switch. Thanks for sharing !
Don, this was awesome. I have 2 reverse loops (about 6 years of running). AR-42 has never failed me. Sound locos, old locos, MU lashups, never fail. My other loop, AD520, worked great until it didn't. I think relay-based reversers have a unknown shelf life. In my case, 6 years. Great video.
Thanks Michael. Part of the issue with the Relay based ones is that there is a brief interruption and some decoders handle it better than others. The older Digitrax decoders will sense the interruption will "restart" and because you don't have an option, it goes through the engine start up sound sequence before the engine moves. The newer Digitrax decoders don't do that and it only affects sound decoders with the sound on. At least that's been my experience. However, I do have a PM42 installed on our club layout and use one of the 4 circuits as an AR for a turntable but that's a somewhat different application of an AR.
I had the same double reverse loop on a layout of mine using a Digitrax AR1. All I did was isolate the 4 entry/exit tracks and wire the AR1 to the X. no problems at all.
I do't know if Digitrax has updated the AR-1 but when I tested it, it was an electromechanical device and it just took too long to switch which meant my sound equiped locos would stop and restart, pausing for the startup sound to finish. The Digitrax decoders now have the option to not pause so newer equipment shouldn't have the problem. Yup, you could just isolate the center as well but you need to make sure that your trains will fit within the reversing loop.
@@donmartin9567 My experience was 9 years ago with then current electronic AR1 on an 'N' gauge layout and it switched immediately with no hesitation of any loco. Happy modelling.
This job you done is amazing. I have struggled with both digitrax, nce and mrc auto reversers. always lot off problems with N-scale sound locos. I will buy some PSX and try those out. Thank you for the great job you done. Thumbs up!!!
Im not sure why you were having so many issues with the PM42. I have been using it as my autoreverser for a long time with no issues with sound or hesitation. I had my trip settings set to the fastest settings and all was good. This was running both sound and non sound locos.
And I have no idea why it would work for you as it certainly doesn't for me. I've pulled PM42s from two layouts because, even at their fastest setting, they don't flip fast enough. I've emailed Digitrax and no help from them. However, the PSX-AR does work as does the frog juicer. I've already spent a lot of time on trying to resolve this. IF there is something else that I needed to do then it is FAR too complicated for me to use.
The main difference i can see watching your video again is my placement of the PM42. I used mine in the center of the "X" when I had my figure 8 with an oval type layout. I would have the tracks isolated about an inch after the turnout and the entire X was the reversing loop section. I have also used it in the teardrop type and also a single center cross over in an oval. All 3 layouts used the same PM42, but the figure 8 used the Digitrax Empire builder the other 2 had the Digitrax Super Chief. Also I had JMRI control on all 3 different layouts, using the LocoBuffer interface. I cant remember now if I programed my PM42 with JMRI or with my throttle. My PM42 was also used as a Power manager at the same time, I had 1 channel as a reverser and the other 3 as power districts. Having sold all my old equipment and now buying new I'm hoping everything runs like it did before.
Biggest problem with pm42 and ar1 is they relay based not sold state is so much better cos they ca change quicker and don’t ave parts that wear out relay contacts will stop working after time cos of the arching
relay contacts don't fail because they are mechanical; they fail due to too much current being run thru them- just like the old breaker-style auto distributors.
Hi Edward. When I did my testing I didn't have one to test but I wanted to so I had the spreadsheet ready to go. I now have one so nice the summer activities are reduced and I'm back downstairs with trains I'll give the quad frog juicer a try and see what it is like. Good eye!
I've since gotten a Frog Juicer and tried it and I'm happy to report that it works perfectly for this application. The results were as good as with the PSX-AR. The PSX-AR does have more programmable features so IF that is of interest then it would be worth the extra expense.
I have over 50 locos so I'm not interesting in converting that many locos to wireless. Plus, pretty much every conversion would require some amount of the frame to get the receiver and battery in there, especially seeing as pretty much all my locos are sound equipped. But, I'm glad that companies are investigating alternatives. At some time there will be a successor to the aged DCC system and I'll be interested to see what that is although it is unlikely that I'll be able to switch, unless the new system is backwards compatible.
My preference is the PSX-AR due to how well it works and its adjustability but I also use the Tam Valley dual Frog Juicer and on my layout I can't tell which one is powering which reverse loop without looking under the layout. The Digitrax solution (and other similar ones), have their use but I don't think they are suitable for layouts which run sound equiped locomotives. If you didn't have to worry about having to wait for the sound start-up to complete (ESU decoders let you disable this and the newer Digitrax decoders seem to ignore start-up as well) then the Digitrax and other solutions would work, you'd just get a momentary blip of no sound and jerk as the loco reacts to the slow switch.
You don't see my entire layout nor a diagram of my wiring. The layout is set up so that if I do a complete loop (not using the figure 8) then the rails polarity match up but when I engage the figure 8, the polarities are different which causes the AR unit to detect that and flip the polarity. So, no, my testing method is not flawed but thank you for checking.
understand this you should be isolated from the outer track by rights you should be doing the test on the inner loop not outer, that is what i see why you are getting failure point your frog should have a dead short though becaus there is active currant coming from the outer track it's supplying power to the frog in reverse you should be shorting on the actual frog because by all purposed there shouldn't be active power to the frog you should be electrically isolated from from the outside track which you are not doing. may be there needs to be something digitally between that kills power to the frog.. I don't know what your setup is like though if the frog is physically powered no amount of testing you do is going to fix whatever issue you think you're having because you have you have atleast 1 rail with constant power which is enough to get through the points.. i think you perceiving an issue where either isn't 1 or the issue is power isolation of the actual frog
Hi Jason. When I talk about "issues" at the start of the video, the issue I was having was that the AR unit I had installed would not flip fast enough and thus the decoder in the engine would recognize the short and shut down, then the AR unit would recognize the short and flip the polarity (like it is supposed to) at which point the decoder would no longer be shorted so it was good to go so the sound system onboard the engine would have to go through its start up sequence before it could move again. The Auto Reversion Unit was not reacting to the short quickly enough Yes, without the AR unit, there would be a short. But, the loop is isolated to make sure that doesn't happen. All Frogs are wired to their associated switches so that when the switch is moved, the power to the frog will change. By using either the PSX-AR or the Frog Juicer as an Auto Reversing unit, the issue was resolved.
so basically a timing issue was causing the issue.. sounds like a combination of polarity issue with a timing issue I would suggest using the same switch throughout the layout may fix any additional issue.. sounds like you may also need a switch controller to be added to where electrically isolate a section of track so you can run to a certain point and the train stops
Thanks Tom. Yup "too much" current can certainly cause problems, especially with really thin contacts but, we don't generally run that much current through our systems (small systems 2-3 amps and larger 5-8). However, over time all Mechanical Systems are subjected to weather and corrosion and what I've found is that it is the corrosion & aging of the components that cause the connection to slowly fail. This is why I modify all my electrofrog turnouts so they do NOT depend upon physical contact to conduct power and why I solder all my mechanical rail joiners and make sure that all track either has a direct power connection to a feeder or is soldered to track that does.
Wow, that was a lot of work! Thanks for the info. I only need one.
Don, thanks for all the work you put in on all these tests and thanks for sharing the results with us. You have definitely helped me decide which auto reverse unit I'm going to buy.
It's not a surprise since it' not relay based - so no interruption. My choice as a reverse and breaker module with the next advantage that it sets the turnout on the way out, but with the possibility to overrun with a switch. Thanks for sharing !
Don, this was awesome. I have 2 reverse loops (about 6 years of running). AR-42 has never failed me. Sound locos, old locos, MU lashups, never fail. My other loop, AD520, worked great until it didn't. I think relay-based reversers have a unknown shelf life. In my case, 6 years. Great video.
Thanks Michael. Part of the issue with the Relay based ones is that there is a brief interruption and some decoders handle it better than others. The older Digitrax decoders will sense the interruption will "restart" and because you don't have an option, it goes through the engine start up sound sequence before the engine moves. The newer Digitrax decoders don't do that and it only affects sound decoders with the sound on. At least that's been my experience.
However, I do have a PM42 installed on our club layout and use one of the 4 circuits as an AR for a turntable but that's a somewhat different application of an AR.
I had the same double reverse loop on a layout of mine using a Digitrax AR1. All I did was isolate the 4 entry/exit tracks and wire the AR1 to the X. no problems at all.
I do't know if Digitrax has updated the AR-1 but when I tested it, it was an electromechanical device and it just took too long to switch which meant my sound equiped locos would stop and restart, pausing for the startup sound to finish. The Digitrax decoders now have the option to not pause so newer equipment shouldn't have the problem.
Yup, you could just isolate the center as well but you need to make sure that your trains will fit within the reversing loop.
@@donmartin9567 My experience was 9 years ago with then current electronic AR1 on an 'N' gauge layout and it switched immediately with no hesitation of any loco. Happy modelling.
@@geoffwalker315 Great that yours worked. Wish mine would have. I would have saved a chunk of money.
This job you done is amazing. I have struggled with both digitrax, nce and mrc auto reversers. always lot off problems with N-scale sound locos. I will buy some PSX and try those out. Thank you for the great job you done. Thumbs up!!!
9:57 We're passed the point of no return! You better get 'er up to 88 MPH before you hit the end of the line!
Thank you❤!
Did you test Tam Valley DFJ?
Yes I did and in fact I now have one installed. For me they worked as well as the more expensive PSX-AR and I'd have no trouble recommending them.
Im not sure why you were having so many issues with the PM42. I have been using it as my autoreverser for a long time with no issues with sound or hesitation. I had my trip settings set to the fastest settings and all was good. This was running both sound and non sound locos.
And I have no idea why it would work for you as it certainly doesn't for me. I've pulled PM42s from two layouts because, even at their fastest setting, they don't flip fast enough. I've emailed Digitrax and no help from them. However, the PSX-AR does work as does the frog juicer. I've already spent a lot of time on trying to resolve this. IF there is something else that I needed to do then it is FAR too complicated for me to use.
The main difference i can see watching your video again is my placement of the PM42. I used mine in the center of the "X" when I had my figure 8 with an oval type layout. I would have the tracks isolated about an inch after the turnout and the entire X was the reversing loop section. I have also used it in the teardrop type and also a single center cross over in an oval. All 3 layouts used the same PM42, but the figure 8 used the Digitrax Empire builder the other 2 had the Digitrax Super Chief. Also I had JMRI control on all 3 different layouts, using the LocoBuffer interface. I cant remember now if I programed my PM42 with JMRI or with my throttle. My PM42 was also used as a Power manager at the same time, I had 1 channel as a reverser and the other 3 as power districts. Having sold all my old equipment and now buying new I'm hoping everything runs like it did before.
Biggest problem with pm42 and ar1 is they relay based not sold state is so much better cos they ca change quicker and don’t ave parts that wear out relay contacts will stop working after time cos of the arching
relay contacts don't fail because they are mechanical; they fail due to too much current being run thru them- just like the old breaker-style auto distributors.
too much current ruins contacts, not the mechanics of them.
.
I noticed you had the frog juicer on your spreadsheet but you did not test?
Hi Edward. When I did my testing I didn't have one to test but I wanted to so I had the spreadsheet ready to go. I now have one so nice the summer activities are reduced and I'm back downstairs with trains I'll give the quad frog juicer a try and see what it is like. Good eye!
I've since gotten a Frog Juicer and tried it and I'm happy to report that it works perfectly for this application. The results were as good as with the PSX-AR.
The PSX-AR does have more programmable features so IF that is of interest then it would be worth the extra expense.
Perhaps you should update your video.
I went to a dead rail system and all these problems went away. Just lay the track and run the train. Even the track cleaning is a thing of the past.
I have over 50 locos so I'm not interesting in converting that many locos to wireless. Plus, pretty much every conversion would require some amount of the frame to get the receiver and battery in there, especially seeing as pretty much all my locos are sound equipped.
But, I'm glad that companies are investigating alternatives. At some time there will be a successor to the aged DCC system and I'll be interested to see what that is although it is unlikely that I'll be able to switch, unless the new system is backwards compatible.
Digitrax is crap. PSX.AR and the regular PSX breakers are the BEST.
My preference is the PSX-AR due to how well it works and its adjustability but I also use the Tam Valley dual Frog Juicer and on my layout I can't tell which one is powering which reverse loop without looking under the layout.
The Digitrax solution (and other similar ones), have their use but I don't think they are suitable for layouts which run sound equiped locomotives. If you didn't have to worry about having to wait for the sound start-up to complete (ESU decoders let you disable this and the newer Digitrax decoders seem to ignore start-up as well) then the Digitrax and other solutions would work, you'd just get a momentary blip of no sound and jerk as the loco reacts to the slow switch.
why aren't you flipping you points.. i thin your testing method is floored because you doing an x loop on the inner loop..
You don't see my entire layout nor a diagram of my wiring. The layout is set up so that if I do a complete loop (not using the figure 8) then the rails polarity match up but when I engage the figure 8, the polarities are different which causes the AR unit to detect that and flip the polarity.
So, no, my testing method is not flawed but thank you for checking.
understand this you should be isolated from the outer track by rights you should be doing the test on the inner loop not outer, that is what i see why you are getting failure point your frog should have a dead short though becaus there is active currant coming from the outer track it's supplying power to the frog
in reverse you should be shorting on the actual frog because by all purposed there shouldn't be active power to the frog you should be electrically isolated from from the outside track which you are not doing. may be there needs to be something digitally between that kills power to the frog..
I don't know what your setup is like though if the frog is physically powered no amount of testing you do is going to fix whatever issue you think you're having because you have you have atleast 1 rail with constant power which is enough to get through the points..
i think you perceiving an issue where either isn't 1 or the issue is power isolation of the actual frog
Hi Jason. When I talk about "issues" at the start of the video, the issue I was having was that the AR unit I had installed would not flip fast enough and thus the decoder in the engine would recognize the short and shut down, then the AR unit would recognize the short and flip the polarity (like it is supposed to) at which point the decoder would no longer be shorted so it was good to go so the sound system onboard the engine would have to go through its start up sequence before it could move again. The Auto Reversion Unit was not reacting to the short quickly enough
Yes, without the AR unit, there would be a short. But, the loop is isolated to make sure that doesn't happen.
All Frogs are wired to their associated switches so that when the switch is moved, the power to the frog will change.
By using either the PSX-AR or the Frog Juicer as an Auto Reversing unit, the issue was resolved.
so basically a timing issue was causing the issue..
sounds like a combination of polarity issue with a timing issue I would suggest using the same switch throughout the layout may fix any additional issue..
sounds like you may also need a switch controller to be added to where electrically isolate a section of track so you can run to a certain point and the train stops
running too much current ruins contacts- not the fact that they are mechanical....
Thanks Tom. Yup "too much" current can certainly cause problems, especially with really thin contacts but, we don't generally run that much current through our systems (small systems 2-3 amps and larger 5-8). However, over time all Mechanical Systems are subjected to weather and corrosion and what I've found is that it is the corrosion & aging of the components that cause the connection to slowly fail.
This is why I modify all my electrofrog turnouts so they do NOT depend upon physical contact to conduct power and why I solder all my mechanical rail joiners and make sure that all track either has a direct power connection to a feeder or is soldered to track that does.
@@donmartin9567 just making a 'point'...... get it LOL