DELUXE REVERB Model Comparison | Helix, Tone Master Pro, Axe-Fx, Quad Cortex
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 9 ก.ค. 2024
- How well did Fender model one of their classic amps, and how do 3 other popular modellers compare?
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00:00 - Intro
00:34 - Test Setup
01:59 - Blind Comparison
03:23 - Thoughts
04:16 - Reveal
05:40 - A Quick Note
06:18 - More Thoughts
07:53 - "Clean Up" Test
09:11 - Even More Thoughts
09:38 - Cleaned Up (Again)
10:01 - Conclusion - เพลง
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All of these comparison videos have been created using the same method. They are sending the amp models into the same 3rd party IR and this is a totally valid test.
We (Fender) have already stated that (for now) this will yield less authentic results than using our factory IRs. We are already working on (and were long before these videos were posted) implementing more capabilities into our 3rd party IR block that will enable the desired results. This will also have a positive outcome when using external IRs and/or a SS power amp driving a real cabinet.
Today (12/3) is literally the 2nd month post-launch for TM Pro. We have a long roadmap of updates planned that include not only new features and models but also tweaks to current features that were in the product on launch day.
We (Fender) really appreciate the engagement and feedback we’ve gotten thus far and are excited to implement some of the suggestions. The best part about all products like this is the ability for continuous improvement that enhances the playing experience on all platforms. We’re excited to have you all be a part of that process.
Jason S. - Product Director, Fender Amps
Thanks Jason. Pinned for anyone curious.
So, when some of the reviewers of the unit said it wasn't ready for release they where actually telling the truth!
I have seen this comment at least once before, and I am still surprised. You had to know a/b comparisons were coming and still released it, two months after release is hardly meaningful when the decision was made before launch anyway.
And why does the FR use noisy op amps in the preamp? It could have been quiet instead of have an audible hiss for a couple bucks. Is "good enough" really good enough? Would explain the neck pocket on my vintage ii strat.
Thanks for sharing. We look forward to these updates....along with the Vibrolux and silver face amp model additions (wink wink nudge nudge) .. ;)
@@vaughanmacegan4012 It's OK for products to be released with room for improvement. It's a functional unit right now. Does the competition best it in certain ways? Yes. However, Fender is YEARS late getting into the multifx modeling game. That said, none of the modelers on the market are perfect on day 1, month 1, even year 1. Line 6, Fractal, Neural DSP have all made substantial improvements to their released products over time. I'd love to see a cheeky comparison between all of these companies Gen 1 modelers running launch firmware. Carry on, Fender.
Thanks for shooting out the latest modelers that make the biggest claims. When I saw Peter Gabriel live in September, Tony Levin was using the Quad Cortex, David Rhodes was using the Helix and Richard Evans was using the FM3. The show sounded amazing and the sounds of the three musicians sounded seamless and sounded just as they do on the recordings. This is the only real world example I've personally experienced of different modelers working together. The ears and talent of the operators are the reason for this. My friend Bill Dillon still uses the red kidney bean Line 6 POD and gets incredible sounding guitar tracks with it, which mystifies most people, even Dan Lanois. Bill played on Peter Gabriel's US record. He played on several with Joni Mitchell, Sarah McLachlan, Robbie Robertson and others using that V1 red kidney bean POD. I met Bill working in the studio with him and Robbie and plugged his red kidney bean POD into the Neve console myself, which is how I know that he really uses it. The sound of a modeler is different than that of a real amp. In the right hands, a modeler can work to achieve different results than real amps, which are even more desirable. If real amplifier accuracy is the goal, Neural Amp Modeler (NAM), which you introduced me to a while ago, has all of these modelers beat. In the world of amplifier emulation, NAM is the current world leading benchmark in 1:1 level accuracy.
The real benefit of modelers like the Axe-Fx and the Helix is convenience of having amps and effects all in one small and light package, plus the support of the community built up around these products and the knowledge base from individuals such as yourself, who teach everyone else how to use this technology to achieve better results. With NAM around which sounds superior and is free but is still only in plugin form and requires a lot of processing power to run efficiently, the benefits of modelers like FM3 and HX Stomp and others is still convenience and community education. FM3 is a gig monster if you're traveling abroad and there probably isn't anything that can beat it for convenience at the sound quality level it delivers. Fractal Audio would be smart to focus more of it's R&D towards the FM3 tier product, giving the next generation of pedalboard friendly Fractal product the same power as the Axe-Fx rack units using the latest generation ARM Cortex processors.
I'd be most interested to hear how Hotone's top Ampero modeler compares to the ones in your test here, since it's less than half the price of any of them and sounds better than most of them in other shootouts that I've heard.
LOVING these videos Leon, thanks for doing them.
My pleasure mate!
Love this comparison. Im really happy my Hx stomp Xl to my ears sounds nearly as good as the Amp and the AXE FX. I mean its virtually splitting hairs really.
Fantastic tests and coverage, Leon. This is really helping me decide what I want for my modeler. These all sound fantastic, just one really stands out for what I am looking for. Thanks for posting; rock on!
Great to hear!
Excellent test format. Very helpful. Thank you
Definitely enjoying these videos and can't wait for more. Very interesting
These tests are incredible, great work sir! 💪🏻
Cheers Beebs! Things I end up doing instead of practicing :p
More of these comparison tests please! These are fun and interesting.
Great review, Leon! It is remarkable how good modeling is now. They've come a long way from my first Line 6 POD!
Thoroughly enjoyable and interesting. Please keep doing these.
Thanks mate. Loads of fun, more to come.
Thank you for great vídeos is super helpful for us continuing doing please 👏👏👏
I’m finding this super interesting. More please. Crazy thing is how good many of these are - what a time to be alive
Precisely!
awesome as always Leon! you think we could add the neural amp modeler to these comparisons? would love to have your nam profiles for all these iconic amps you're testing!
I love these videos, great job! Can you do a modeler comparison on the Roland JC-120?
To my ears the Fractal has run away with both this and the JCM shootout, it sounds great! Would love to hear Boogie Mark's next.
Mark's and Recto's are a must. I've got a really nice Mark IV B and Rev G Recto here waiting to be fired up.
@@LeonToddcan't wait!
Yes let’s hear the Mesa comparisons.
I disagree the best of the bad bunch was the external IR for the TMP and the JCM800 was clearly won, quite surprisingly, by the Helix/HX Stomp
love these videos, keep going!
More to come!
I’m loving these videos especially because I have an FM3 and am downsizing and only keeping it and a handwired Tweed Champ I built for myself. Not regretting it since all the amp models sound so amazing :)
That's a really nice setup - an entire toy library in one unit, then a handcrafted classic!
Oh yes please do some more comparisions ! Subscribed because you included the Helix. And let me add, they all probably can get the same character as the axe fx just by twisting some knobs/ eq/ compression.
I would rank Axe Fx < QC < Helix < Fender. The Helix to me had more fizz in the higher gain settings which I think is worse than the darker model of the QC.
Thanks Leon - now that's a proper test! Funnily enough, I enjoyed pretty much all the tones except for the Helix. But I think they're all pretty usable. However, in terms of accuracy, it seems that the Axe-FX was the most accurate - I think (maybe next time we can have amp, A, amp, B, amp, C, amp, D, etc for a really accurate comparison, for the gain comparisons). Anyway, I couldn't agree more - all these modellers are good enough for the job at hand and I think if you've got any of these then more power to you.
Another good test/comparison. Leon. I am also interested in knowing if a particular amp modeler is as good or better sounding as the real amp they represent.
Yes! Absolutely, outstanding video! Please do more!
I own the Axe-Fx III, Kemper, & Helix. What I was most impressed with in this video was how close the HX model was to the Fractal and real amp! All I’m hearing nowadays is how the Helix is outdated and at “end of life.” I don’t see it!! Helix is still an amazing product that holds its own! And remarkably, the Dlx Reverb model was an original release model from 9 years ago!! And it did that well!! Their newer models, to me, are as accurate (or within 1%) of the Fractal models.
I would love to know your thoughts on the Helix, Leon!
The sound of fractal is much more telepheric,and substentic while defining a greater distance between the frequences below the average organic stance,depending of your budget of course unless you dial it uncorrectly that goes without a doubt but only in a room decently tuned, and the strings must be new ,people at fractal have stated that their modelers are the most powerful and you can hear it if you buy it.
Of course you can get a nice sound with other modelers but it will be less fractalesque I should say,or not fractalesque at all witch makes sense if you buy a quad cortex ,but the learning curve is different,a lot of fractal users discovered you cannot tweak the quad with the fractal manual that make the helix a total different beast .but its hard to say if all this generate enough views to make a decent leaving
Anyway great video here thank you to be an expert reseller
I compared the ToneMaster Pro sounds with AxeFx3, Helix, and Quad Cortex for a selection of the amps that are in TMP. This included the Deluxe Reverb model, but not any of the high-gain models. I did not get the obvious difference on the TMP that Leon did in this video. They all sounded very similar. I set up amp only presets in the TMP with default settings, and copied the settings to the corresponding amps in the other units. All were fed to a Line6 PowerCab which also provided the same appropriate cab emulation for each of the amps tested. I used a switcher to send my guitar input to each unit, and could change with a foot tap. None of the units had a better or worse sound, and any variations were well within the expected variance of reference amps. Leon did use his preferred gain/EQ settings from his own real tube amp, whereas I used the default settings from the TMP. I can't say that I would not have heard bigger differences at different settings.
I remember seeing a video comparing the Fender models to other units and the TMP basically came out of top of the pile. So I'm taking this with a grain of salt.
The more I watch your videos, the more I love your channel. I don't know if my perspective is that different than others on these different multi-effects processors, but I have a limited budget and am always looking for the next awesome device that will make my music creation, production, and live environment the best possible. Right now something like the Axe-FX is out of my range. Since most relatively expensive items I purchase are done on a couple of retailers that have extended me credit. I am really interested in the Fender Tone Master Pro simply because I see its presentation as the best of all the worlds. But if the amp models are not accurate, and I don't have anything comparable in my very humble studio, then it isn't worth it. I can't go out and buy anything Marshall, Soldano, Freidman, or Fender at current prices. Not to mention multiples of these amp brands. That's why I'm hoping for a good modeler and multi-effects pedal system so I'm not tap dancing to get a particular sound from song to song live or in a recording situation. I do have a Tonex pedal that I like so far, but I am running into sound problems that I don't quite understand yet.
One thing from your channel that has been most valuable is the comment to roll off the highs on amp models to get a better sound. So I guess what I'm saying is, keep up the good work. I do support creators who actually help me understand how to do things better. It's to my advantage as a musician. I also play bass so I would be interested, if you can, to see bass model comparisons. I'm a big Geddy Lee fan and have found some Tonex presets that sound great, but I spend a fair amount of time looking and not enough playing. I want to play more but I like learning covers since it seems to help me understand the guitar, gear, and playing better.
Thanks again for what you do.
I massively appreciate that mate.
As usual, well done.
Good idea Leon!
For the price of the Tone Master Pro, and considering I'm looking at getting one, I am very interested in how it would perform IRL applications. Definitely keep doing these comparisons, it's very helpful.
As you know already I'm a long time Fender fan, and I have a few of my old favorite Fender amps here, in addition to a few of the discontinued Fender Cyber-amps. One of these is the Cyber-Twin SE, and in it, is a model of the '64 Vibrolux Reverb, which I happen to be A/B-ing against my Vibrolux at the present time. I'm finding that I have to do some serious tweaking in the CT to get it closer to what my amp sounds like. The model sounds pretty thin and weak compared to the actual amp. It makes me wonder what condition the actual amps were in when Fender used them to create the models in the CT. I guess the same would apply with the Tone Master Pro when they were creating these presets too.
Obviously, Fender has some work to do to the Tone Master Pro if they want to continue to sell them. YT has been a good source for researching this modeler before even pulling the trigger on one, and your videos have been especially helpful for that. I hope Fender is looking at your test results too because the competition in this market is pretty stiff.
I remember a local music store had a "vault" section with all their high end Fender and Gibson stuff, and one of the amps in there was a Cyber Twin. I remember being super impressed with it. I really should try find one and do a video with it!
Compare the TMP using the built in cab.
@@LeonTodd There are pros and cons with that amplifier, as with all things I suppose. While it has some great sounding amp models in the amp collection menu, I have found that when it comes to the effects and the combinations you can use, the editing is somewhat limited. I have the SE model which has a few more things added to it like OD, Fuzz, and Ring Modulation.
You can either choose any single effect when you are creating a preset, or you can choose an effect combination already in the amp, and have limited editing within that combination. Unlike the Cyber-Deluxe, which allows you to create effect combinations and edit each effect as deeply as you want to. That's why I use the CT as a center channel, and the CD are the stereo effects channels. I wish I could attach pics with these comments, then I could show you how I got around those limitations.
Essentially, I have re-created my huge rack rig with those three combo amps.
Of course, the pros are that you can use these amps for recording and go direct into your DAW or FOH and get the full stereo effect when needed. Overall, these amps meet my criteria of flexibility and great tone.
Yeah the AxeFx is dead nuts spot on. I have that and a Quad Cortex. I enjoy both. What amazes me is that none of the Fender or EVH models in the Tone Master Pro are remotely close to their actual product. I find that very odd.
Likewise. This is the third amp now that sounds way off the reference point.
Great video Leon. I have the Helix and the TMP. I’m debating if I’m going to keep the TMP. Would be nice to hear a comparison of the other high gain amps. The Mesa mark IV and the Recto. the 5150 etc. thanks.
Will do!
Great comparison again. Seems like Fender has some work to do with the modeling thing. The others sound very, very close. I also noticed the more prominent bass on one of them, not the Fender. The Fender by itself was dark, lacking the sparkle.
Have owned Helix and Axe FX (sold both). Recently got TMP and still own Fender HW 64 DLX. IMO for some reason, I could not get along with Axe FX and Helix long term...after a year got tired of them. Still vastly enjoy my 64 DLX real amp and am liking the TMP. Lastly, even with the hiss/fizz/noise from TMP, I still like the tones, for the most part. See what happens after some firmware tweaks. From what I've learned over the decades is that you always go back to the real thing. Grab and go convenience is better in some cases, but I guess it's good to have both. Always look forward to Leon's great work on these vids!
You are the ONLY person who likes the TMP over the Axe-FX.
I'm really enjoying these and would definitely love to see more! Even though as a TMP owner it's kinda painful to see that Fender is not even getting their own amps sounding right. I hope they are able to update and patch the TMP to be more accurate. The Axe-Fx sounded just like the real amp. The FM9 Turbo is also $100 cheaper than the TMP D:
Same. Just bought the TM this week and feeling a little lied to in light of these videos but have to have hope they will pull their shit together
Also I have the opposite in Australia once you add tax and import fees the FM9 is a grand dearer !!
If it were the same price and available I don’t know if I’d have considered the TM
@@QuickSticks8771 This is an extremely unfair comparison, knowing that the TMP's modelling method is quite different. They will be updating it soon, however, so that it responds the same way with external IRs.
@@algorithm007ify yeah your right and
I probably shouldn’t be watching all the TM bashing vids looking for purchase validation
@@algorithm007ify And you know this how?
@@QuickSticks8771 Particularly vids with a person who is a "Fractal Artist" whose job it is to make all the other modeller look less than stellar. Like for instance of all the other modellers only the TMP has the built-in reverb. I would like to know how Leon factored this in to the sounds we heard. I have seen other reviews where the Fender sounded the best, so, the Fender is a good unit - I suspect like you I was expecting it to be a little better than just good. In Australia, I can confirm the the FM3 is over a thousand more than the TMP: $3,699 -> 2,349.
I love these comparisons too (I am so glad I bought Fractal)
This is awesome Leon. If you could throw neural amp modeler in that would be awesome
NAM is incredible hey. I held off using it here since these are all hardware and use component modeling.
Awesome video, how far do we reckon we are to a super low latency hardware unit that can load NAM matches? That would be so cool.
Leon what are you think, where is the reverb is best Lexicon Pcm 81/91 or Quad Cortex?
And second question: where in hardware you listen th best effect of doubler?
Thanks 🙏
so I drew out a little chart to follow along on the blind and made fast notes based on instant feeling of the tone, I scored the real amp & the Axe as less liked every time! I scored the Helix as like then dislike, same with the TMP. So the winner on that logic for me was the QC which I marked as like straight off.
Sold my FM3 because I don't gig on electric anymore, and I like the workflow of just plugins straight in the box. It'd be interesting to hear Tonex side-by-side with these as well, but that feels a bit wonky, since the captures would be based on specifically the settings you've got on the amp, so it isn't like anyone else could recreate it in the wild.
I think it says a lot that the first three I could spot on first listen - the one that sounded modeled but absolutely nailed made me think Fractal, and the Helix doing the slightly-more-scoopy, slightly-more-skanky-top end thing that it does. What a world we live in that literally every alternative was usable, though!
Here's the real test: grab a POD 2.0 to be the real wildcard....
Yeah that's basically why I left ToneX/NAM out of clips. I like the idea of adding a "dark horse" to future comparisons. Time to dust off the V-Amp....
C Had something a little extra I thought…..love these vids, Leon
It will be interesting to see how things change when Fender updates the TMP to have more flexible impedance curves (as promised in a future update). SICs are about more than frequency response. Either way... The all TMP clip was my favorite even if it was the most different from the real amp, because all I care about is live use and the other ones would be too harsh at band volumes. That was always my problem with the Helix. Either way, I'll keep enjoying the TMP, the first modeller I actually enjoy using on stage, but it's very interesting to see these comparisons.
@@NS-tc9kk Fender reps have said so on The Gear Page forum
@@NS-tc9kk The only other specific feature I remember being confirmed is saving presets to SD card (right now you can only save to the cloud). They confirmed more features, amps and FX are coming but didn't say what or when.
very good comparison. Kind of makes me feel, there is no real reason anymore, to switch. At least when recording...
Leon would you please answer how you accounted for the lack of a Reverb in the other modellers?
I turned the reverb in the amp all the way off.
Fender has explained why the TMP sounds different when using a third party IR , whether loaded into the device or in your DAW. How would the TMP sound compared to the amp if you used the cab built into the TMP? That to me is the real test. Though they’re changing things in the next update so it works better with third party IRs.
I think a very important, and often missed point, is that each of these modellers are basing their product offering on different amps. If you have ever played 2 or 3 deluxe reverbs next to each other, they will sound all different. Cliff over at FAS has his own, Line 6 have theirs, etc. They all can be made to sound pretty close. Surprisingly, the Quad Cortex lost to my ears in this video. You would think that Fender would just "sound" closest, but that is maybe a bit unfair. I thought the Axe-fx sounded the closest in your shootout here. I also thought it sounded closest in my own shootout, so thats the one I got. I have heard many other guitarists live with helix, headrush, axe-fx, etc, that sounded really great. Use whatever wiggles your own ears the way you want it to everybody. Thank you for another great video. Your open mindedness is always refreshing, Leon. I hope people will maybe share their own tactics in the comments on how they get their own modellers to sound the best!
I wonder if the QC DR is modelled with the bright cap on or off?
Leon - how do you feel about the QC vs Fractal FM3? Desktop use only 😊
Both great but of course if you get an FM3 you can get all my free blocks and presets :p
Great comparison video Leon..... For me, the main message to come out of this is that, at this stage, it's perhaps less about the sound (all the modellers can get something that gets close to the sound of the original, whether that's with 'exact' settings matching or with some additional tweaking), especially in the context of a recording, but more likely about how it 'feels' to play each of these modellers compared to the real amp...... So it's a question for the player - which device gives you the playing experience that in most comfortable or inspiring to play - and maybe less of a question for the audience coz, sonically, a punter in the crowd is not going to give a **** as they can all sound good when dialed in suitably..... Keep 'em coming...... This is a neat format..... 🙂
I forgot about the feeling and I can say only about real amp, fractal, and helix so to surprise you the only modeler that gives me feeling of playing real amp is ToneX by IK Multimedia
It would be interesting to see what fender does in the next/ first update after presumably some sort of conversation with people who bought the unit.
there are a lot of things in the TMP that are currently frustrating/ missing / long winded or just plain buggy. Although I’m really enjoying the TMP. I have decided to give it a year. … that will be a year less than I enjoyed the QC which I sold recently.
Fender I believe will have a larger team and more capacity to improve the TMP .. I guess it will come down to a question of desire on there part. I was always put off fractal because of the complexity of the unit, but I’m starting to come around .. the models sound really close and it seems not a month goes by without improvements and updates. Getting tired of peeking in through the window while I wait for other companies to make the improvements or manifest the units that they initially advertise.
I just bought a TMP too it sounds stunning to me at home with headphones, which makes these videos disappointing to see
It certainly seems that the long game is where the money is with these units so I’m expecting some pretty stellar support from fender or they’ll lose a fortune
Either way I’m loving the tones I’m getting right now and it’s only going to improve from here
@@QuickSticks8771 defiantly agree I really like the tones I’m getting and the effects and amps already onboard.
The TMP handles outboard pedals really well. There are plenty of other big PLUS I am enjoying with it, headphones really do sound first class. and the fr cab is really pretty good. Apart from the mild hiss.
there IS some really basic stuff I would like to see in the first update. Like pan and gain control of the effects loops. Especially 23/4 And being able to put wah before effects loops 1+2 or even better effects loops 1 and 2 anywhere with a line instrument option.
Design your own pathways … ?! Really find the pre made pathways a bit slow and clumsy.
Proper studio parametric EQ especially as a mastering eq
Noise gate on the input before effects loops 1and 2
Effects loops on the mic/line and stereo line in through main inputs
As a lapsteel and synth player AS WELL as guitar nerd this would bring the TMP close and possibly beyond the flexibility of the quad cortex.
I also like the forum for discussing ideas like this and getting frustrations with the product off your chest. Not sure if fender has one
But the neural one for QC was really helpful and mostly constructive .
Hope fender are listening and reading users gripes/ requests and support for tge really good things they have already achieved .
The "Fractal is too complex" thing is way overblown IMO. On unit editing is definitely a little easier on the other units but the flipside is the Fractal stuff sounds so close to the real thing I find it's generally faster to get it dialed in. The effects selection on top of that is amazing too.
I second that statement. Fractals UI is pretty utilitarian. If you ever used an digital oscilloscope or other similar tool you know where that comes from, which is not surprising given Cliff's background.
Anyway, it's actually amazingly simple if you consider the amount of options and freedom it gives you. Plus, all the deep diving is strictly optional, i don't even do my own patches for the most part, just slighty editing the factory ones to my liking.
At the end of the day it really is a working man's tool, not a gadget.
If i look at all the fancy plugins i sometimes get the impression that the first thing these companies hire are graphic designers, not engineers.
interesting how st rock amperium will sound in comparison?
I actually recorded some clips with the St Rock and the Hotone Ampero for this comparison but didn't end up using them. I'll throw them in for the next one.
Did you use the Fractal LB-2 to reamp ? And did you change the impedans curve to LB-2 on the Axe Fx III ?
Yes. US impedance on the X-Load.
@@LeonTodd So you gave the Axe Fx model the same Impedans curve?
I have to confess, after reading “Deluxe Reverb” comparison, I was thrown off to hear a thick chugga-chugga Marshall style crunch tone in the demo. Thanks for playing something at the end that was a little more representative of how most people dial in a blackface Fender tone.
Would love to hear a Kemper Liquid Profile compared as well.
finally a discussion of crust and fizz...
Can the fender TMP get close to the peavy 6505+ tone and gain..?
For an all out metal tone.
Check out the Sonic Drive Studio comparison he did with the EVH amps
Was the input impedance the same on all as well?
Yes
The Amp sounds the best in all the clips, the fractal is probably closest but there is extra high end energy going on and doesn't sound as full as the Amp
I am hearing the same thing
A couple of points to add to the fairness of this test. The Axe FX $2399 or so. The Helix $1699 or so. The Quad Cortex $1699 or so. The Tone Master Pro $1699. Leon is fab guitarist and runs a great channel. He is also a Fractal artist. Fractal is the maker of Axe FX. I am not saying that to undercut him. Not at all. However, he should be saying that from the top. In this test, I personally liked the amp more than any of the models. I think I could get them pretty close with an EQ.
Yes, but If we are to assume he used the Fractal FM9 and HX stomp as shown in the thumbnail, then those would be priced at $1699 and $699 for the Axe FX and Line 6 segments.
But, even if he did use an Axe FX III, the FM9 will still sound identical if given the same exact preset. Same would apply w/ the HX stomp and Helix.
An Axe Fx III MkII Turbo (with footswitch and expression pedal) comes in at $7199 AUD - and how are we to know he didn't go out of his way to make the other units look bad, even with unconscious bias. We don't. When you are as closely associated with Axe FX as Leon is, it should be mentioned in every test he does. It would be interesting to see whether Leon is breaking Australia media laws by not mentioning this relationship. Like Lee Anderton and his reviews of companies he is associated with.
QC with expression pedal comes in at around $3,699 AUD
Helix (expression included) comes in at $2,900 AUD
TMP with expression pedal comes in at $2,600 AUD
I own 4 of the 5 just not the amp and i like em all 😊 Im hoping fenders next update will even the playing field.
I don’t think any of them were particularly bad and in a mix you wouldn’t really be able to tell (other than maybe the extra bass of the QC).
I would say though that it’s amazing how far tech has come. If I’d had these and some headphones when I started playing in the early nineties then my family would have been much less annoyed with me with my Marshall turned up 😂
Hahaha right! Now we're here splitting hairs.
Hopefully your videos push Fender and others to continue to up their game. That said as someone with a FM9 at my feet and the TMP... I'm loving the Fender. It may or may not be as accurate to the real thing, I don't know, but I enjoy playing on the TMP more. It'd be hard to go back to programming the FM9. Making shunts and programming settings in that UI just takes me out of an artistic mindset. Too many clicks and choices. Fractal really need to make an easy mode and advanced mode or something. Also the amp combos sound and FEEL the best to me in the TMP. I have a load of own hammer IRs among others, but the Fender speakers sound more reactive to me and I hate having to configure amp and cabs as 2 blocks in Fractal land. Both are great products with different types of improvement needed in my opinion.
"If it sounds good it is good" is ultimately the guiding factor. Use whatever makes you grin!
What's everyone playing their guitar through today?
I love to have an fm3 fractal its my dream i love USA and pop rock music i love songs like Chained to the rhythm fm3 fractal its my dream i love g66 and Fractal but i dont have the money for bought an fm3 my family its a simple family here in italy im 22 years old i love really leon if you gift me an fm3 its my dream i love your channel its amazing i hope to have an fm3 to make my music i fly when ive have one 🤟🤟🌞🌞🎸🌟🌟🌞🎸🌟🌟🌟🌟🎸🎸🎸
My Quad Cortex! I use the Friedman BE-100 model almost all the time. Love hot rodded Marshall tones.
AXE FX 3 (Because of @Leon Todd’s influence), Kemper, and Helix LT.
I had a lazy day.....and just my spark amp on all day, I've got a Joe Satriani set up preset, and randomly pickup up and shredded inbetween chores. Great Sunday routine
Helix/Powercab, Blackstar or Marshall..... or maybe all three as the day progresses..... Love 'em all :-)
Where is amperium live in this kind of compare? In the same level or higher/lower you think?
It's pretty good although the workflow is a little quirky with seperate pre/power amp models
@@LeonTodd yes, just interesting to hear amperium modeling algorithms in comparison with this best modeling gear.
The TMP has the muffled blanket over the speaker sound in these tests. Helix needs some high end rolled off. Axe-fx was closest to the real amp which sounded great.
A through E all sound quite usable. C is a bit bright for me. F and G get dull sounding and H is quite muddy. Excited to see the reveal!
Okay hearing the results. I’ve been really wanting to get a Deluxe Reverb or Princeton at times and now I’m just wondering if I should get a good speaker cab and a power amp. The Axe 3 nails the amp sound so there probably isn’t much point in having the real amp.
So close hey. Cliff is a wizard.
Helix and ax FX are very close!👍🏼
But theres something about the axe FX in the lower frequencies...tighter,sweeter🤔
It's hard to explain but it's definitely there to my ears anyway 🙂
As someone told me once, the Helix Deluxe reveb sounds like its caps needed to be changed.
There should be a new modeler in the next few weeks. It should have come already in November, but it's delayed. Hotone Ampero 2 Stage, which has an affordable price.
I'm looking forward to trying that one!
The Axe-FX was incredibly close to the real amp. Seems like that's most often the case in comparisons. Helix second and Quad Cortex third in my opinion. Keep the comparisons coming!
More to come!
I thought it was awful but then again they all where.
The Tonemaster Pro sounds like it’s putting an IR through a cab to me. It has that double cab sound.
Good point. Another user mentioned the TMP having it's impedance curve simulation in the cab block, which seemingly was bypassed for the external IR loader in this test.
Whatever it is, the TMP sounds off here.
Very nice Leon, as usual. Great :)....Why is the Tonemaster so off? This is fkn weird, lol
I have a few ideas but I'm far from an expert on this stuff.
@@LeonTodd LoL....I have a TMP, and I quite like it to be honest, but when compared to the real amps, sounds so so off. It does sound much better overall than my boss GT1000. It s just weird the amps are off, but that aside, it sounds really nice and articulated : I quite like it :) Thanks Leon :) ❤
Why do LG Televisions (Goldstar) have a picture quality that is easier on the eyes and more true to real life than Samsung TVs? Because LG (Goldstar) has a long history of making display panels by the hundreds of millions each year, and for other companies. Over half of Samsung's TVs use displays that are made by other display manufacturers like Sharp.
The world's top amp modeling gurus have already established the market. Fender doing amp modeling may as well be an unknown new company getting into the market. The UI on the Fender Toast Master is it's great contribution to the amp modeling market and if Fractal Audio made a product with a UI like the Toast Master, they would be on back order for a year because Fractal Audio doesn't have the manufacturing capabilities of a major MI company like Fender, Yamaha, Roland.
I think the typical Fractal user would be sceptical about a touch UI, at least if it replaces physical buttons. The grunt work of building presets and deep diving into settings is best done at the desktop in Axe-Edit anyways, as this is vastly superior to any built in UI. It would be wise of Fractal to finally add bluetooth capability to their devices and just release a tablet version of Axe-Edit.
@@KingKong-mp6gj All modellers have a desktop editing app
Really liking this comparison series. Fractal is always the best it seems, wish they would release a plugin similar to Helix Native. That would be killer.
quad cortex has this super woofy low end mud thing going on
With the caveat that this test doesn’t show everything I look for when testing an amp (and I understand the need to do short clips to keep it not overwhelming), all of these were useful sounds except the TMP.
Thanks mate. The DRRI I have is bone stock with the original groove tubes and Jensen speakers- any recommendations for upgrades/mods?
My reply disappeared. Not sure why. Get in touch mate.
I am in the same situation at Leon and also interested in your thoughts! @@PsionicAudio
Hi @leonTodd, could your Patreon followers have a copy of the fractal presets you used for this video?
Yep, I'll get them up first thing tomorrow morning my time
Next shootout is Leon Todd v John Cordy first to 100k subs. No pressue.
Hahaha I think JC has me covered there, he's only about 1200 off. Hardest working geezer in the biz.
In the first set of comparisons, the Fractal Axe Fx modeler was the most accurate as compared to the physical amp to my ears. Second best to me was the Helix. The Quad Cortex was not bad. However, the Fender unit was the least accurate…which was a shock. In the second set of comparisons, I thought the same ranking and results were the same. I must admit, I thought the Fender modeler was the least “Fender” sounding of all the modelers.
I wonder if the differences are due to the way the algorithms were done based on the amps they used when they modeled them. Did some of the manufactures use the schematic or actually pull the chassis out of and old amp and blueprint the components.That said I own three of them Axe-Fx III, Quad Cortex and Helix. They all sound good but they do sound different from one another. They also all have their good and not so good points. There's no doubt that the Axe-Fx III reigns supreme but I think it would be a nightmare to use on a gig or jam session where you might need to dial in a tone really fast. In that scenario the Quad Cortex is the easiest on the fly. It's also small and extremely powerful. You could put it up on a chair or music stand and change things without having to bend down and use a midi switcher to control the unit. That's what I do. The Helix is somewhere in the middle but it's also very large so if you don't want to bend down to modify things that could be a problem.
Yeah stuff like this is ultimately a single window into very complex and versatile machines. Form factor, I/O and general "vibe" are super important too.
So very true.
the helix fizzle.like crazy...
the TMP is dead on with the real amp.
dont forget that TMPA MODEL also modelled the tremolo... and reverb og these amp.
i sold all my fender amp and got the tnp and sold my 1uad cortex
You know the one test I want to try? I think fractals artificially aid guitar playing, like a trigger on a drum kit. Play a complicated solo on a real amp vs the fractal and listen to it solo’d. I bet the fractal sounds better everytime
Not sure about the other units but fractal has a noisegate integrated into the mandatory input block which is activated by default. It definitely gives your playing a "triggery" feel when it goes dead silent after you mute the strings. Ofc you can turn that off.
Other than that, my FM3 really aids me in my guitar playing. The pleasing sound and dynamic feel just invite me to play more often and better😅
The Axe-FX is shockingly close - at least on TV speakers. Granted, part of my wonders if that is partly due to your familiarity with setting that unit up for getting great tones?
I pretty much just dialed up the matching model on all units and set the knobs to the same spot
No boss gt 1000?
I don't own one unfortunately.
Its almost to the point where modellers are so good....that your almost picking a unit depending on how you like its interactive layout and how it functions.... because the tones on all these units sound amazing (to me) me).m
A lot of the Helix models up to the recent 2203 seem really overgained. They really stepped it up with the 2203.
Also: can we finally just conclude that the TMP is just not doing great? I appreciate that you're adding some caveats but let's be honest, the idea Fender is selling is that they are more accurate/authentic _at the very least_ for their own amps.
So impressed with their 2203 and the new bassman model
I would rank Fractal, Helix, Quad Cortex and Fender in that order. The adjusted Fender improved things but it would still be last. For perspective, I own a Fractal and a Helix. I love most things Fender so it's a shame to see them stumble out of the blocks especially at their price point but I'd like to think they'll make the necessary adjustments going forward.
To me Axe FX is the closest, with Helix very close also. Quad Cortex and Fender needs to learn more about doing models. I was really surprised that Fender did not win this since they are modeling their own amp. This just shows that Fender and Quad Cortex need to go back to the drawing board on modeling.
helix has a bit of fizz, axe 3 sounds slightly better than the amp, I hope they don't change it. Nice one thanks!
What a time to be alive hey!
I was hoping for accurate clean tones...
Yeah Leon is hilarious in that his distortion tones are skull-crushing, his "crunch" tones are heavier than G'n'R, and his "clean" tones are like ZZ Top grind. He looks at the gain knob differently than I do and I completely love him for it.
is it just my ears or the helix model has this high pitch noise running in the back?
Yes, I've been trying to get to the bottom of that. I suspect it may be the power supply.
Wondering why the Tonex is not in there
Profiling/capturing as opposed to component based modeling like these.
@@LeonToddi see, make sense. Thanks
The fractal proving it’s the goat
I didn't find that at all, I found it lacking in volume and in clarity - guess I didn't drink the Kool-Aid, in any case I was disappointed with all of them, the only one I really liked was the real deal.
the Axe-Fx samples were the winners for me.
For me the biggest test is heavy hard gain. Any time I test an amp I just crank the gain and see how much there is.
The edge cases are always interesting to test. plague Scythe Studios did some interesting tests with ToneX looking at super heavy distortion that were pretty interesting.
They all sound very close to me. In the context of a guitar track in a recorded song, I sincerely doubt anyone could tell the difference between any of these modelers. Maybe my ears are shot, but I doubt it. PS - I have the TMP and my tweaked Deluxe Reverb patch has far less gain that demonstrated here. Of course that's just my taste for that particular amp.
The Helix jumped out as most different in the letters-only pass, at least on my phone. It sounded a bit harder and thinner. Will have to re-listen on good speakers....
The TMP sounded gritty with the backed-off guitar in the "how does it clean up" section....
Kinda lame the TMP has to have the treble cranked to get the real amp's sound with the treble on 6. What if "treble on 7 is heaven" or "treble on 8 is great"? I guess you're SOL with the TMP....
The AxeFX had just a tiny bit more resonant thump in the lows, but that could be the reactive liad used on the real amp introducing a variable....
An impressive comparison overall, Leon - the AXE FX, to my ears all but duplicated the Deluxe Reverb and the HXStomp was a close second. Having said that, each one of these devices are tools and each user/artist will seek to obtain the best results possible for their use. I know Fender is a bit late to this game and is getting some negativity because of that. But what people are forgetting is that these devices are TOOLS to create with and it's up to the user to create THEIR ideal sound with them. Can't wait for the next installment in this series. (Mesa-Boogie perhaps?)
Yeah will have to do Recto and Mark series next!
Leon, could you do a similar video with the Twin Reverb, if you have one. Using the Deluxe again is fine, if not.
But instead of using an external IR, just use whatever native cab block in the respective devices. Meaning, TMP uses its TMP Twin amp and cab, Axe uses its Twin amp and cab, etc. I'm really curious how each of them sound compared to each other when using just what comes stock with that device versus aftermarket IRs.
I’ve just gotten a TMP this week and getting truly stunning tones at home with headphones which makes these videos disappointing to watch
It seems the long game and customer satisfaction is where the money is with these units so fingers crossed it’s just teething problems
Hopefully you’ll get to make some fender redemption vids after some solid updates 🤞🏻
Ultimately if you're digging the tones that's the bottom line!
@@LeonTodd this is true and I am loving the Friedman and a stack of other fender / dirt box combos and the UI is stunning .but…the Marshalls are almost unusable and others have serious problems
I know it’s early days and these things are potentially fixable but if I pay for a Ferrari I’d expect air in the tires and all the gears to work as I drive out of the showroom 🤷🏻♂️
I've play playing the TMP live for a few weeks and have gotten great feedback and it sounds great in my in ears. Coming from FM9 which is also great, but man if you need to change things on the fly it kind of stinks. You can do it if you think ahead especially with performance controls, but not close if you want to try something brand new on the fly.
@@aaronthomas7790 agreed the ease of use is absolutely fantastic
It’s encouraging to hear you rate the tones with fractal as I don’t have any other unit to compare to
@@NS-tc9kk thanks your right
Shouldn’t let all the TM TH-cam neg get to me
The Axe FX and Helix were pretty similar, with the Axe FX sounding a bit thicker in the Mids, and Helix sounding a bit brighter. I agree with your assessment. I think ease of dialing is an important criteria for picking a Modeler, and it seems the Fractal Units really shine in this area.. Did you use any Reverb in the comparisons?
I was doing some testing with the Fender Dripman Amp and Cab in the in the new Line 6 3.70 Update on my HX Stomp regarding how the location of the Reverb Block in the Signal chain affected the tone. With the Reverb Block between the Amp and Cab Blocks, where it would be on the real Amp, the overall sound was brighter, and clearer, particularly in the bass frequencies. If the Reverb was at the end of the chain, the sound was warmer, more organic, and slightly distorted.
These were totally dry but I've actually been working on a reverb comparison in a similar vein. Spring/room/hall/plate/shimmer across different units.
@@LeonTodd Cool. Looking forward to what you find.
NOT surprised that the Fractal was spot on. VERY surprised the Tonemaster was the least realistic/matching. Helix edged out the Cortex, just a little.
You own a Fractal. Good to know. 🙄
@@dv8322 I do. I also own a Helix, and a Tonex, and have owned a Kemper. And, that is just the high end modellers (have several mid and budget level as well). Your veiled point is?
@@justmehere6094
My veiled point is that like so many others already invested in other modelers you lack objectivity.
@@dv8322 Which is what I thought, but thought I would allow you to clarify. Now, did you notice I'm invested in more than just the Axe. In fact, I'm 'invested' in half of what was tested (as well as an actual DRRI). SOrry if my opinion differs from what you are 'invested' in.
@@justmehere6094
I just find it interesting that you and virtually every other person in every other comment section thinks the one they already own edges out the rest. I think you lack objectivity.
The real amp is so much warmer than everything else, the tone master comes very close in terms of that warmth, the AFIII sounds cold by comparison.
Interesting that Fender didn’t do this themselves?
@6:20 Haha