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Thanks for covering this one. My friend was on this flight. RIP Maddy, I miss you! Her father was a pilot and after this accident he was a huge advocate for pilots getting enough rest between flights.
So the pilot believes the way to get out of a stall is to pull back on the yoke and slow the plane down more. Both pilots chatted enjoyably about the icing they were observing but neither thought it was a condition that demanded any action. The co-pilot is pressing buttons but doesn't know what they do. Gear up or gear down, flaps, no flaps. So the very idea that a nap would turn these two into competent pilots is, I would hope by this point, quite absurd.
In Remembrance to the 50 victims: Captain Marvin Renslow, 47 First Officer Rebecca Lynne Morris Shaw, 24 Off-Duty Pilot Joseph Zuffoletto, 27 Flight Attendant Matilda Quintero, 57 Flight Attendant Donna L. Prisco, 52 David Borner, 49 Ronald Davidson, 66 Linda Davidson, 61 Alison Des Liebhafsky Forges, 66 Beverly Eckert, 57 John J. Fiore, 60 Ronald Gonzalez, 44 Brad S. Green Sr., 53 Kevin Johnston, 52 Georges Abu Karm Nicole Korczykowski Jonathan Perry, 27 Jerome Krasuski, 53 Brian Kuklewicz, 41 Bethany Kushner, 19 Madeline “Maddy” Loftus, 24 Lorin A. Maurer, 30 Donald McDonald, 48 Coleman Mellett, 34 Dawn Moro Monachino, 44 Gerry Niewood, 65 Mary Belle Pettys, 50 Julie Goergen Ries, 49 John G. Roberts III, 48 Kristin Marie Saltzgiver Safran, 37 Jean Marie Srnecz, 59 Susan Wehle, 54 Ernest W. West, 54 Shibin Yao, 37 Henry Clay Yarber Jr., 62 Ellyce Marie Kausner, 24 Dawn Mossop Donald Mossop, 42 Shawn Mossop, 12 Ferris Reid, 44 Mary J. Abraham, 44 Sean Andrew Lang, 19 Darren Tolsma, 45 Larry Beutel Dipinder Sidhu Ruth V. Katz Harel Jennifer Neil, 34 Steve Johnson, 52 Zhaofang Guo, 53 And Douglas C. Wielinski, 61, who was killed in his own home. They are at peace.
Thank for making this list. Beverly Eckart was well know loud advocate against 9/11 reporting, turned down government money and had recently met with Obama.
2 over worked pilots, one sick, both broke, flying at night. I remember this story and a piece PBS did about it. Very sad but has done a lot to help the aviation industry. RIP to all the victims of this crash
I remember watching the PBS documentary about this disaster and the conditions that pilots of subsidiary airlines were working and living in. Sleeping in the crew lounge, staying in crash pads ( sometimes 10 to a room ) and being totally overworked, underpaid and exhausted.
A couple of local notes: In the satellite photo of the crash site, the volunteer fire company is visible just at the bottom, with the parking lot. The response from Clarence Center VFD was practically instantaneous, but there wasn't much they could do but keep the fire from spreading. The site is now a nice little memorial with a stone and garden, and the Town Hall Park has a number of trees planted around the pond with memorial plaques as well.
I worked that night for a local ambulance company. One of the worst night last I have ever had whole working. God bless the families and victims of this tragedy,
The ground victim was on the toilet when the plane crashed into his house. I'm a volunteer fire fighter that lives 2 blocks away and was first on the scene. There were four people still moving but died 90 seconds later. The two survivors received a $5,000,000 settlement and moved away.
Grew up nine miles down the road from the crash site . I remember this very clearly. I have a book written by the wife who lost her husband when the plane hit there house: my dad also had a friend who was a first responder that night from a nearby fire station. They did turn the site into a beautiful memorial site
I'm an avid aviation fan and have watched what feels like every bit of content on crashes, but I've been binging your videos the last few days and they're so enjoyable! Thank you
This tragedy was totally preventable. The two fatigued pilots should've been given time to rest. They didn't deserve to die. Neither did the passengers, the other crew members, or the one man in his *own* home! 😠
@@inthedarkwoods2022he didn't accept the position with a lack of training and knowledge; he _lied_ about his training and background in order to get the position. He was fired from his previous airline for repeatedly failing check rides and Captain promotion exams. The consistent reason across all those failures was "erratic pilot behavior"; when faced with an unexpected circumstance, he would make control inputs that were not appropriate for the situation (e.g. raising the booze when the stall warning occurred) and would attempt to solve problems by pressing buttons without consideration for the consequences of the buttons he was pressing. The 1,500 hour rule that Congress implemented (and that the NTSB did _not_ recommend or even hint at) immediately following this accident would not have prevented it; the pilot training database that Congress implemented (and that the NTSB _did_ recommend) 12 years after the accident would have.
Also, the Q has So Much Power, he most likely would have flown out of it had he simply firewalled the throttles. I've known plenty of people who knew the Captain, and they all said the same thing... "super nice guy, not the best stick."
Marvin was an amazing conscientious man. I flew with him many flights as an FA. I was flying with Colgan at that time, based out of Newark, but lived near Houston, Texas. I could have been on that flight. I’ve gone over and over this. My heart breaks go this day for all who lost their lives.
I live in the Northern Virginia area and did my private pilot training at Manassas Regional Airport (KHEF). The Colgan Air building is still there on the field, signs and all. Although I was young when it happened and did not know any of the victims, this accident has always felt very personal to me. It is what led to the 1500 hour rule, requiring all part 121 carrier pilots to have 1500 hours, which makes finding hours to get there incredibly difficult. As you stated though, both pilots had well above 1500 hours, so we know that inexperience alone did not lead to the crash (although the captain did have a spotty checkride record).
Carter, when I learned to fly (at Manassas) you needed a hell of a lot more time than 1500 hours to get a commuter job. It has always been "incredibly difficult" to gain experience and it always should be. This accident is a perfect example of what happens when "everyone gets to fly". My opinion will piss off a lot of people and I don't care. It SHOULD be difficult to get an airline job.
@@lbowsk I agree, it should be difficult. Yet now with the current system, pilots have to spend 1000 hours or more flying in GA aircraft that doesn't prepare them as well for the part 121 experience. "But they will be instructors" once again, that doesn't prepare you as well for airline work as the European model, which has the MPL. I go to Purdue now, who recently held a study in conjunction with FlightSafety and showed competent pilots with 250 hours (the minimum for first officers before 1500 hour rule) could fly transport category jets just fine. This accident was not due to lack of hours. It was due to pilot error from fatigue. And again, even if the 1500 hour rule was always a thing, it would not have prevented it. In fact, it has now compounded the pilot shortage problem.
@@lbowsk I disagree with the idea that it should be difficult to gain experience. On what basis? Safety? Ok, you now have an industry that will take any pilot they can get because finding a job is so difficult. Congratulations, you made the problem worse.
@@CarterHancock Low-time, inexperienced pilots do not belong in airliners. Period. This accident was not caused by fatigue. It was caused by incompetence. Airliners are not places for low-time FO's to build time. Passengers pay for and have every right to expect competency in the form of two highly-skilled, experienced pilots. Look at Asiana in SFO. Look at Emirates last month in Dubai. Those guys did not belong in cockpits. An airliner is not a place to build time or learn the ropes.
@@lbowsk Time =/= experience. Proper training is what matters. The FAA themselves has said this on numerous occasions. Low time pilots shouldn't be captain, sure, but where else should they build time to prepare for the airlines? Flying checks isn't a thing anymore. Even then, any GA job is not great preparation for the airlines, period. Are you an airline pilot? Because all of the airline pilots I have talked to and my professors agree that the ruling was unnecessary.
I'm impressed that you managed to upload this on the 13th anniversary of the crash. Especially since the crash was the day after my eighth birthday. I just wanted to ask, what flight simulator softwares do you use for reconstructions and where do you get your stock footage?
Hello. It was by coincidence that I was looking at this accident a few weeks ago and the dates just so happened to line up. For the simulation in this video I used Lockheed Martin's Prepar3d Simulator. I usually use X-plane for most videos though.
I have seen a couple videos about this particular crash. Even though I prefer new and fresh content I really did enjoy your version. Keep it up and look forward to your unique content to come. Thank you so much!
As a patreon, I don't mind at all that you won't read my name out anymore. I admire your work and hope your career doing this goes on and leads to better fortune in the long term. Thank you!
Karen Wielinski, the wife of the man who died when the aircraft crashed into their home, wrote a book about her family's experience in surviving and navigating this disaster as sort of "outside victims;" it's called One on the Ground.
I used to live in Scotland and flew to Buffalo a few times a year between 2007 & 2010 to visit my then fiance, now wife - a trip that always had a changeover in the NYC area. A number of times I swapped flights at Newark and more than a couple of times used a "Continental Connections" flight using tiny airlines like Colgan. Was a real shock to hear about the crash.
I live in Lewiston, NY, about 35 minutes from Buffalo. We still have stickers in all of the stores about "remembering flight 3407". My mom had friends/coworkers on the plane returning from a trip, and it was devastating to all of the people who worked there.
nice to see airlines I've never heard of, increases knowledge for the better! Really hopin you get more views on the SAA 295 vid, watched it a couple of minutes ago, was absolutely marvellous
This is my airline, kinda. I hired into Colgan two years after the accident as we were merging with Mesaba and Pinnacle. Its now the best performing airline in the United States based on nearly any metric you want to use.
I know a pilot who was hired at colgan air only one month before Marvin was hired. I think that this crash was very sad, but it could have been prevented pretty easily. Thankfully, many good things were introduced safety wise as a result of the crash, such as needing more hours. Its still crazy to think that this happened 13 years ago.
The 1500 hours requirement weirds me out. Didn’t apply to this case as both exceeded those hours. Pilots can also pick up some bad habits as their focus shifts from scenario focused training to trying to log as many hours as possible, even if it’s in a Cessna. So basically it’s the quantity of hours that count and not the quality…
If I had a nickel for every time there was a fatal plane crash in 2009 caused by the pilot pitching the nose up and sending the aircraft into a stall I’d have 2 nickels which isn’t a lot but it’s weird that it happened twice.
Funfact: This accident was what led the FAA to enforce the 1500 Hour rule for pilots wanting an ATP. It was a pure congressional decision by a senator. And now there is a pilot shortage as many cannot work up to their 1.5k hours as quickly. (Before the Colgan Air accident the minimum for an ATP was 250 hours.
Many airlines lack a proper training program that trains pilots from their first flying hour to become qualified for a commercial aircraft meaning many have to self fund training, which for most is not an easy task as very few have $100k to spare
To fly as SIC, you have to have an ATP for Part 121 Air Carriers Operations. . 1500hrs has always been a time requirement for the ATP. The 250hrs is Commercial Pilot requirement to obtain a Commercial Pilot License.
WRONG! You had to have accumulated 1500 hours to get an ATP (previously known as an ATR) It was never as low as 250 hours. And to those skeptical about the airlines hiring low time pilots, that’s exactly what they did in the 1960s, with some taking a&p’s training them as F/E’s and then training them as pilots.
There are bound to be a bunch of comments here about how dumb the FO was to retract the flaps. I've never flown a Q400 but I have flown plenty of other planes, here are my observations........ Some planes handle ice well, others do not. Some planes fly perfectly well with ice but go crazy when flaps are deployed. If the plane is stable and lowering the flaps makes it unstable, it's reasonable to retract them in hopes that the plane will become stable again. In my opinion, she did the right thing but at the time, the plane was already deep enough into a stall that recovery was not possible.
Wrong, wrong, wrong. This was not a tail-plane stall incident. She did the absolute wrong thing. But it didn't matter at that point because BuckRogers had already dicked up the recovery.
I just recently discovered this channel and have been binge-watching your videos while I work on a painting. (It's of a character who is a spaceship pilot and becomes involved in a fatal accident, so I decided to go with something relevant.) I love these videos, it's fascinating (and at times harrowing) to hear of these incidents and what caused them. Have you ever considered doing a video on the airplane whose engine fell apart over a Colorado town last February? (United Airlines flight 328.) When that event happened, I was staying in the town that the pieces fell onto, just a few miles away. I've always wondered what caused the engine to fall apart like that. I suppose it wasn't a disaster and more of an averted disaster, but it's one that has interested me ever since it happened.
A great example of how the big airlines use regional ones to maximize profits while shedding the liability of reduced safety. The families of the deceased went on to get legislation passed that I think should have been specifically mentioned in this video, not just alluded to.
Sad how the regional jet industry differed from the big airlines. For an industry know for great pay for airline pilots, perks, etc. it’s amazing how the regional airlines instead were basically like working in sweat shops
The discussion at the time said that the captain was trained on T-tails which had different stall characteristics around a stall of the T-Tail. The Standard Operating Procedure on a T-tail stall was to pull back, rather than push down.
Car data shows he fought the stick shaker and pusher twice ...all while airspeed decayed . She sealed their fate when f/o went flaps up on the edge of a stall .
Not to be disrespectful to the dead pilots but that sounds like they didn't really know what to do regarding this plane at least, doesn't it? Tired or not, wouldn't a stall warning wake you up via adrenaline? That cannot be a daily occurance and it is a potential threat to your life. In the end the plane warned them to prevent a dangerous situation and their responses only intensified the problem until it turned into a disaster ...
I was trained in a T-tail. Stall recovery is the same as in a conventional tailed airplane- reduce angle of attack to below critical by lowering the nose. Get to flying speed ASAP. In other words, push forward
Had to be fatigue related. The order of magnitude of the mistake these two pilots made would be like you or I purposely closing our eyes and running a red light together in a car. All the while talking about last night’s half time SuperBowl show.
Did you know about that one crash where the pilot literally said he could land the plane blindfolded, then had the crew put a curtain over the window to prove it? Anyway he couldn't do it and killed everyone instead.
Captain fought the stick shaker and pusher at reduced power while speed decayed ...F/O put flaps up while he was fighting recovery systems....that's stupidity not fatigue.
I still don’t understand why they are pulling back when the aircraft is in a stall. I understand you trade altitude for airspeed, but you also have the flaps and the power levers. Anyone want to address this? I don’t know the altitude above ground when the upset started.
I think it was in a Seconds from Disaster episode where an investigator said that a common fallacy is to assume that when an accident is due to a worker's error then when you get rid of the worker you also get rid of the problem. If one worker was likely to make the error and you don't change anything then what's stopping another worker from making the same error?
The 1952 simultaneous sinkings of the SS Pendleton and her sistership the SS Fort Mercer off the coast of Cape Cod, MA is also interesting, especially the rescue operation (There's a dramaticized version in the form of the 2016 movie: The Finest Hours).
Aren't there already a ton of TH-cam vids on these? I prefer content that's fresh and not seen before. I have watched this story no less than 3 times before
@@JasonFlorida you are correct, there are videos of the Estonia disasters already. I think that disaster breakdown probably can do a much better one tho, and spread it to new viewers. If you don't wanna watch or don't like it; no one is forcing you and nobody cares if you dont like it, in the same way that you don't care what I think.
@@nilslindstrom8087 indeed, most vids are not too detailed or in other languages, and the only TH-camr whos vids are based around the MS Estonia does his vids in finish or Estonian
Colgan: You're not allowed to sleep in crew rooms Two pilots, who can't afford hotels because of low pay, slept in the crew rooms, and are tired: *crash the plane and kill everybody on board* Colgan: *surprised pikachu face*
Also not to be mention The captain also appear to be fail in three checkride before this incident Definition for checkride: A practical test, more commonly known as a checkride, is the Federal Aviation Administration examination which one must undergo in the United States to receive an aircraft pilot's certification, or a rating for additional flight privileges(From goggle, not me)
It is freaking scary to know that you are on a rookie pair of 24 year old inexperienced hands in case human error occurs to the captain. Female officer shouldn't have flown that day.
@@jaimepablomartinezdelgado9426 were she not badly fatigued by horrendous hours, she would have been fine. But curious how you have decided to single her out...
Yes, they learn a lot with each crash and safety is just that much better. However, it is a very expensive lesson as 49 or so people had to die to learn it.
I remember this accident, and it made quite an impression on me, because I'd flown into Buffalo, the year before on a commuter plane similar to this one. The one thing I remember them trying to do was to blame this on icing. Apparently that had very little to do with it but somebody was trying to shift the blame from the irresponsibility of Colgan Airlines
A bit fed up with misinformation of this case ...pilot fatigue is the weakest excuse . These pilots were chatting away while in the zone , breaking sterile cockpit rules . While airspeed decayed they put flaps out , reduced power and fought the stick shaker/pusher twice! She sealed their fate when the f/O put flaps up near stall ....this is flight school day one stuff . The captain fought everything the aircraft could do to save itself from the pilots . The F/O killed them. Wanna know why this bothers me so many years later?... I worked in manufacturing and followed this aircraft from the first located part to type cert.
I’ve always wondered this but I’m finally gonna ask a potentially silly question - why did the nose up input exacerbate the stall when it wasn’t in a stall? Wouldn’t throttle up and pulling back just climb the plane since he wasn’t even in stall conditions yet considering the info about the V Ref switch? -Edit - *Obviously the answer to my own question is “no” but I’m just wondering why.
I realize this is an old video an it has probably been brought up before but, Colgan did not require any pilots to commute to the base. They commuted by choice as I did for most of my career. You can’t put that one on the airline.
What a foolish move pulling back on a control stick when every indication of a stall is screaming at you. Such an error is a sign of a poorly trained pilot and they shouldn't have been flying anything let alone flying a commercial aircraft.
So tragic for all those people. A pilot applying back pressure to the yoke in response to a stall warning is like a driver pushing the accelerator instead of the brake. It should never happen.
There is a very little know aircraft accident in I believe 1947 when a BOAC as later known crashed in a water landing in Oman or one of the Gulf islands and the crash broke the plane in two. The plane was a seaplane which I believe was made by Sanders Rowe. To me it is interesting because it demonstrated the time it took to fly from India, whence it left, to southern England its home port.
Airlines really need to take more interest in the condition of their piolets. Mental and physical exhaustion happens to everyone but when you are in a high stress job, it just makes it all the more likely something tragic will happen. Also, (and I am speaking about The United States here, not sure about other countries) we live in a society that makes people feel pressured to work even when they aren't well. Calling in sick is seen as a weakness and some sort of indication you aren't committed to your job. How many piolets are in the air right now, who are sick and overworked but still showed up for work? The same happens with truck drivers and other professions where being exhausted and sick can result in mistakes that end in the tragic loss of lives.
retracting the flaps during a stall would have cause massive dip in altitude, especially if they didnt add power and continued to keep that pressure on the yolk. Possibly a very similar situation to a power off stall, but removing laps was more than likely the deadliest thing here; I'm making the assumption that as she pulled flaps as the plane was stalling more than likely one of the wings stalled even further and potentially cause more aggravation into the belly up of the plane. I could be wrong this video is my first look at this accident.
I lived only 4.5 miles from this crash. Captain was incompetent on the DASH 8 Q-400. He had failed his check ride 5 times before but hid it from Colgan Air.
This wasn't mentioned in the video but he did add power, only to 75% though (report, page 5). Of course this did little to help given everything else they did.
I think that many regional airlines in the US have crews from all over the County and tiredness is very commonplace, ultimately leading to accidents. Its not the first crash to be caused by pilot exhaustion and sadly, it won't be the last.
i have heard the head of the ntsb say just that, with each crash we learn how to make planes more safe, i imagine he meant it to instill confidence, but that just makes us sound like Guinea pigs
“The cause was fatigue and poor work environment for regional airlines” so now the FAA increased the minimum hours to 1,500h and kept the regionals dog shot
![Stalling in the Sky and Crashing Just Before Landing | Dead Tired [Real Audio]](/img/n.gif)
If you found this video to be interesting, be sure to subscribe as there is a new video every Saturday. This video also went out to my Patrons on Patreon 48 hours before going out publicly. Consider joining here from £3 per month: www.patreon.com/DisasterBreakdown
Thanks for covering this one. My friend was on this flight. RIP Maddy, I miss you! Her father was a pilot and after this accident he was a huge advocate for pilots getting enough rest between flights.
So the pilot believes the way to get out of a stall is to pull back on the yoke and slow the plane down more. Both pilots chatted enjoyably about the icing they were observing but neither thought it was a condition that demanded any action. The co-pilot is pressing buttons but doesn't know what they do. Gear up or gear down, flaps, no flaps. So the very idea that a nap would turn these two into competent pilots is, I would hope by this point, quite absurd.
In Remembrance to the 50 victims:
Captain Marvin Renslow, 47
First Officer Rebecca Lynne Morris Shaw, 24
Off-Duty Pilot Joseph Zuffoletto, 27
Flight Attendant Matilda Quintero, 57
Flight Attendant Donna L. Prisco, 52
David Borner, 49
Ronald Davidson, 66
Linda Davidson, 61
Alison Des Liebhafsky Forges, 66
Beverly Eckert, 57
John J. Fiore, 60
Ronald Gonzalez, 44
Brad S. Green Sr., 53
Kevin Johnston, 52
Georges Abu Karm
Nicole Korczykowski
Jonathan Perry, 27
Jerome Krasuski, 53
Brian Kuklewicz, 41
Bethany Kushner, 19
Madeline “Maddy” Loftus, 24
Lorin A. Maurer, 30
Donald McDonald, 48
Coleman Mellett, 34
Dawn Moro Monachino, 44
Gerry Niewood, 65
Mary Belle Pettys, 50
Julie Goergen Ries, 49
John G. Roberts III, 48
Kristin Marie Saltzgiver Safran, 37
Jean Marie Srnecz, 59
Susan Wehle, 54
Ernest W. West, 54
Shibin Yao, 37
Henry Clay Yarber Jr., 62
Ellyce Marie Kausner, 24
Dawn Mossop
Donald Mossop, 42
Shawn Mossop, 12
Ferris Reid, 44
Mary J. Abraham, 44
Sean Andrew Lang, 19
Darren Tolsma, 45
Larry Beutel
Dipinder Sidhu
Ruth V. Katz Harel
Jennifer Neil, 34
Steve Johnson, 52
Zhaofang Guo, 53
And Douglas C. Wielinski, 61, who was killed in his own home.
They are at peace.
Wow you have all the names and age, may the rest in peace
🙏😢✈️
Thank for making this list. Beverly Eckart was well know loud advocate against 9/11 reporting, turned down government money and had recently met with Obama.
They arent at peace, they are dead.
Absolute crap , the flight Cap and F/O who forgot how to fly had killed them.
2 over worked pilots, one sick, both broke, flying at night. I remember this story and a piece PBS did about it. Very sad but has done a lot to help the aviation industry. RIP to all the victims of this crash
I remember watching the PBS documentary about this disaster and the conditions that pilots of subsidiary airlines were working and living in. Sleeping in the crew lounge, staying in crash pads ( sometimes 10 to a room ) and being totally overworked, underpaid and exhausted.
@@mrkipling2201 Yup. It was quite the miserable life.
@@codaydecoy2007 absolutely.
And the passengers thought they were actually flying on Continental Airline itself.
Flying Cheap.
A couple of local notes: In the satellite photo of the crash site, the volunteer fire company is visible just at the bottom, with the parking lot. The response from Clarence Center VFD was practically instantaneous, but there wasn't much they could do but keep the fire from spreading. The site is now a nice little memorial with a stone and garden, and the Town Hall Park has a number of trees planted around the pond with memorial plaques as well.
I worked that night for a local ambulance company. One of the worst night last I have ever had whole working. God bless the families and victims of this tragedy,
🙏😢✈️
The ground victim was on the toilet when the plane crashed into his house. I'm a volunteer fire fighter that lives 2 blocks away and was first on the scene. There were four people still moving but died 90 seconds later. The two survivors received a $5,000,000 settlement and moved away.
On the ground or from the plane
@@OshowAfrica the mother and daughter of the house were the survivors.
Thank you for this information.
🙏😢✈️
That's fucked up, his last moments were spent dropping a duece.
Grew up nine miles down the road from the crash site . I remember this very clearly. I have a book written by the wife who lost her husband when the plane hit there house: my dad also had a friend who was a first responder that night from a nearby fire station. They did turn the site into a beautiful memorial site
I'm an avid aviation fan and have watched what feels like every bit of content on crashes, but I've been binging your videos the last few days and they're so enjoyable! Thank you
Thanks for watching!
@@DisasterBreakdown thanks for the effort you put in :)
This tragedy was totally preventable. The two fatigued pilots should've been given time to rest. They didn't deserve to die. Neither did the passengers, the other crew members, or the one man in his *own* home! 😠
🙏😢✈️
Fatigued yes.... but the Captain shouldn't have accepted the captain position with such a lack of training and knowledge.
@@inthedarkwoods2022he didn't accept the position with a lack of training and knowledge; he _lied_ about his training and background in order to get the position. He was fired from his previous airline for repeatedly failing check rides and Captain promotion exams.
The consistent reason across all those failures was "erratic pilot behavior"; when faced with an unexpected circumstance, he would make control inputs that were not appropriate for the situation (e.g. raising the booze when the stall warning occurred) and would attempt to solve problems by pressing buttons without consideration for the consequences of the buttons he was pressing.
The 1,500 hour rule that Congress implemented (and that the NTSB did _not_ recommend or even hint at) immediately following this accident would not have prevented it; the pilot training database that Congress implemented (and that the NTSB _did_ recommend) 12 years after the accident would have.
There were other “forces” involved in the crash. Political ones! The plane was doomed before it took off! 😢😢😢😢😢
They’re almost all preventable.
Also, the Q has So Much Power, he most likely would have flown out of it had he simply firewalled the throttles.
I've known plenty of people who knew the Captain, and they all said the same thing... "super nice guy, not the best stick."
Marvin was an amazing conscientious man. I flew with him many flights as an FA. I was flying with Colgan at that time, based out of Newark, but lived near Houston, Texas. I could have been on that flight. I’ve gone over and over this. My heart breaks go this day for all who lost their lives.
I live in the Northern Virginia area and did my private pilot training at Manassas Regional Airport (KHEF). The Colgan Air building is still there on the field, signs and all. Although I was young when it happened and did not know any of the victims, this accident has always felt very personal to me. It is what led to the 1500 hour rule, requiring all part 121 carrier pilots to have 1500 hours, which makes finding hours to get there incredibly difficult. As you stated though, both pilots had well above 1500 hours, so we know that inexperience alone did not lead to the crash (although the captain did have a spotty checkride record).
Carter, when I learned to fly (at Manassas) you needed a hell of a lot more time than 1500 hours to get a commuter job. It has always been "incredibly difficult" to gain experience and it always should be. This accident is a perfect example of what happens when "everyone gets to fly". My opinion will piss off a lot of people and I don't care. It SHOULD be difficult to get an airline job.
@@lbowsk I agree, it should be difficult. Yet now with the current system, pilots have to spend 1000 hours or more flying in GA aircraft that doesn't prepare them as well for the part 121 experience. "But they will be instructors" once again, that doesn't prepare you as well for airline work as the European model, which has the MPL. I go to Purdue now, who recently held a study in conjunction with FlightSafety and showed competent pilots with 250 hours (the minimum for first officers before 1500 hour rule) could fly transport category jets just fine. This accident was not due to lack of hours. It was due to pilot error from fatigue. And again, even if the 1500 hour rule was always a thing, it would not have prevented it. In fact, it has now compounded the pilot shortage problem.
@@lbowsk I disagree with the idea that it should be difficult to gain experience. On what basis? Safety? Ok, you now have an industry that will take any pilot they can get because finding a job is so difficult. Congratulations, you made the problem worse.
@@CarterHancock Low-time, inexperienced pilots do not belong in airliners. Period. This accident was not caused by fatigue. It was caused by incompetence. Airliners are not places for low-time FO's to build time. Passengers pay for and have every right to expect competency in the form of two highly-skilled, experienced pilots. Look at Asiana in SFO. Look at Emirates last month in Dubai. Those guys did not belong in cockpits. An airliner is not a place to build time or learn the ropes.
@@lbowsk Time =/= experience. Proper training is what matters. The FAA themselves has said this on numerous occasions. Low time pilots shouldn't be captain, sure, but where else should they build time to prepare for the airlines? Flying checks isn't a thing anymore. Even then, any GA job is not great preparation for the airlines, period. Are you an airline pilot? Because all of the airline pilots I have talked to and my professors agree that the ruling was unnecessary.
I'm impressed that you managed to upload this on the 13th anniversary of the crash. Especially since the crash was the day after my eighth birthday. I just wanted to ask, what flight simulator softwares do you use for reconstructions and where do you get your stock footage?
Hello. It was by coincidence that I was looking at this accident a few weeks ago and the dates just so happened to line up. For the simulation in this video I used Lockheed Martin's Prepar3d Simulator. I usually use X-plane for most videos though.
I have seen a couple videos about this particular crash. Even though I prefer new and fresh content I really did enjoy your version. Keep it up and look forward to your unique content to come. Thank you so much!
As a patreon, I don't mind at all that you won't read my name out anymore. I admire your work and hope your career doing this goes on and leads to better fortune in the long term. Thank you!
Thank you so much for your support :)
Now that's classy!!!🙏👍👻
Very good job covering these terrible incidences. It's very interesting to to see how human error can cause such devastation.
Karen Wielinski, the wife of the man who died when the aircraft crashed into their home, wrote a book about her family's experience in surviving and navigating this disaster as sort of "outside victims;" it's called One on the Ground.
I just bought this book today, at the Clarence flea market and antique mall. Just wanted to say
Enjoy your week off! You deserve it after all of this hard work! 🥰
Thank you. I am looking forward to it!
I love how u posted on the exact anniversary of this tragedy
I used to live in Scotland and flew to Buffalo a few times a year between 2007 & 2010 to visit my then fiance, now wife - a trip that always had a changeover in the NYC area. A number of times I swapped flights at Newark and more than a couple of times used a "Continental Connections" flight using tiny airlines like Colgan. Was a real shock to hear about the crash.
Yeah ironic because one of the passengers lost her husband on 9/11 only for her to lose her life on a plane.
Yeah, that made this worse for her. She was Beverly Eckert. She had just met with Obama a few days before and an advocate for 9/11 victims 😢
I live in Lewiston, NY, about 35 minutes from Buffalo. We still have stickers in all of the stores about "remembering flight 3407". My mom had friends/coworkers on the plane returning from a trip, and it was devastating to all of the people who worked there.
Excellent episode. I vividly remember this accident. I’ve been waiting for this.
nice to see airlines I've never heard of, increases knowledge for the better!
Really hopin you get more views on the SAA 295 vid, watched it a couple of minutes ago, was absolutely marvellous
Thank you, that is still one of my personal favorite videos on the channel.
Yea before it was posted I would ask when it would be coming out on many of his videos
This is my airline, kinda. I hired into Colgan two years after the accident as we were merging with Mesaba and Pinnacle. Its now the best performing airline in the United States based on nearly any metric you want to use.
Thank you for you content, you are great. We all enjoy your narration.
Excellent and on the sad anniversary, too. Great work.
I know a pilot who was hired at colgan air only one month before Marvin was hired. I think that this crash was very sad, but it could have been prevented pretty easily. Thankfully, many good things were introduced safety wise as a result of the crash, such as needing more hours. Its still crazy to think that this happened 13 years ago.
The 1500 hours requirement weirds me out. Didn’t apply to this case as both exceeded those hours. Pilots can also pick up some bad habits as their focus shifts from scenario focused training to trying to log as many hours as possible, even if it’s in a Cessna. So basically it’s the quantity of hours that count and not the quality…
The higher training requirements had nothing to do with safety and everything to increase the leverage of the Pilot’s Union.
These always are super great keep up the good work
Another interesting video .. well done
If I had a nickel for every time there was a fatal plane crash in 2009 caused by the pilot pitching the nose up and sending the aircraft into a stall I’d have 2 nickels which isn’t a lot but it’s weird that it happened twice.
Funfact: This accident was what led the FAA to enforce the 1500 Hour rule for pilots wanting an ATP. It was a pure congressional decision by a senator. And now there is a pilot shortage as many cannot work up to their 1.5k hours as quickly. (Before the Colgan Air accident the minimum for an ATP was 250 hours.
Many airlines lack a proper training program that trains pilots from their first flying hour to become qualified for a commercial aircraft meaning many have to self fund training, which for most is not an easy task as very few have $100k to spare
@@ey7290 if flying isn't stressful enough!!!🙏😢✈️
To fly as SIC, you have to have an ATP for Part 121 Air Carriers Operations. . 1500hrs has always been a time requirement for the ATP.
The 250hrs is Commercial Pilot requirement to obtain a Commercial Pilot License.
WRONG! You had to have accumulated 1500 hours to get an ATP (previously known as an ATR)
It was never as low as 250 hours.
And to those skeptical about the airlines hiring low time pilots, that’s exactly what they did in the 1960s, with some taking a&p’s training them as F/E’s and then training them as pilots.
There are bound to be a bunch of comments here about how dumb the FO was to retract the flaps.
I've never flown a Q400 but I have flown plenty of other planes, here are my observations........
Some planes handle ice well, others do not. Some planes fly perfectly well with ice but go crazy when flaps are deployed.
If the plane is stable and lowering the flaps makes it unstable, it's reasonable to retract them in hopes that the plane will become stable again.
In my opinion, she did the right thing but at the time, the plane was already deep enough into a stall that recovery was not possible.
Wrong, wrong, wrong. This was not a tail-plane stall incident. She did the absolute wrong thing. But it didn't matter at that point because BuckRogers had already dicked up the recovery.
I found the FO's actions weird, but not too insane.
The captain responding to a stick shaker by pulling the nose UP though....
WTF?!??
I just recently discovered this channel and have been binge-watching your videos while I work on a painting. (It's of a character who is a spaceship pilot and becomes involved in a fatal accident, so I decided to go with something relevant.) I love these videos, it's fascinating (and at times harrowing) to hear of these incidents and what caused them.
Have you ever considered doing a video on the airplane whose engine fell apart over a Colorado town last February? (United Airlines flight 328.) When that event happened, I was staying in the town that the pieces fell onto, just a few miles away. I've always wondered what caused the engine to fall apart like that. I suppose it wasn't a disaster and more of an averted disaster, but it's one that has interested me ever since it happened.
A great example of how the big airlines use regional ones to maximize profits while shedding the liability of reduced safety. The families of the deceased went on to get legislation passed that I think should have been specifically mentioned in this video, not just alluded to.
I knew I smelled another video release
This airline's shareholders' uncontrollable greed proved tragic.
Yes a new one I have actually never heard of this one though
great video, as always!
Excellent job, C!
Another fantastic video. Thanks king
Sad how the regional jet industry differed from the big airlines. For an industry know for great pay for airline pilots, perks, etc. it’s amazing how the regional airlines instead were basically like working in sweat shops
Profession: the job you do for a living.
Professionalism: behaving with the competence and attitude expected of a professional.
The discussion at the time said that the captain was trained on T-tails which had different stall characteristics around a stall of the T-Tail. The Standard Operating Procedure on a T-tail stall was to pull back, rather than push down.
Car data shows he fought the stick shaker and pusher twice ...all while airspeed decayed .
She sealed their fate when f/o went flaps up on the edge of a stall .
Not to be disrespectful to the dead pilots but that sounds like they didn't really know what to do regarding this plane at least, doesn't it? Tired or not, wouldn't a stall warning wake you up via adrenaline? That cannot be a daily occurance and it is a potential threat to your life. In the end the plane warned them to prevent a dangerous situation and their responses only intensified the problem until it turned into a disaster ...
I was trained in a T-tail. Stall recovery is the same as in a conventional tailed airplane- reduce angle of attack to below critical by lowering the nose. Get to flying speed ASAP. In other words, push forward
The "Mom left me at Best Buy" cracked me up lol
Great video though! Thanks for realizing fatigue played a big factor in the pilot performance.
@Ken Fullman I have no idea what you're confused about. Its pretty straight forward.
@Ken Fullman Watch the video lol
@Ken Fullman It's the name of one of his patrons he lists at the end of the video haha
I don't see why it was so difficult for OP to say that
@@Admiral_Jezza I didn't think I'd have to? lmao its not hard to literally just watch the video instead of skipping and then being all confused.
@@shabberplasm32 Well most people aren't gonna listen to him read out all the patrons. Skipping is irrelevant since it's at the end of the video.
Had to be fatigue related. The order of magnitude of the mistake these two pilots made would be like you or I purposely closing our eyes and running a red light together in a car. All the while talking about last night’s half time SuperBowl show.
Did you know about that one crash where the pilot literally said he could land the plane blindfolded, then had the crew put a curtain over the window to prove it? Anyway he couldn't do it and killed everyone instead.
Captain fought the stick shaker and pusher at reduced power while speed decayed ...F/O put flaps up while he was fighting recovery systems....that's stupidity not fatigue.
@@duncandmcgrath6290 ... i'm pretty sure that people sufffering form fatigue do dumb things, unless i'm misremembering it.
I still don’t understand why they are pulling back when the aircraft is in a stall. I understand you trade altitude for airspeed, but you also have the flaps and the power levers. Anyone want to address this? I don’t know the altitude above ground when the upset started.
I'm getting a flight tomorrow and I'm freaking out right now!
Bet you’re alive
I think it was in a Seconds from Disaster episode where an investigator said that a common fallacy is to assume that when an accident is due to a worker's error then when you get rid of the worker you also get rid of the problem.
If one worker was likely to make the error and you don't change anything then what's stopping another worker from making the same error?
Does Colgan Air still exist under United? May all RIP.
Great video! If your going to do a maritime disaster, I highly recommend looking into the sinking of the Estonia in 1994
Pls do a video covering the conspiracy theory of Estonia.
The 1952 simultaneous sinkings of the SS Pendleton and her sistership the SS Fort Mercer off the coast of Cape Cod, MA is also interesting, especially the rescue operation (There's a dramaticized version in the form of the 2016 movie: The Finest Hours).
Aren't there already a ton of TH-cam vids on these? I prefer content that's fresh and not seen before. I have watched this story no less than 3 times before
@@JasonFlorida you are correct, there are videos of the Estonia disasters already. I think that disaster breakdown probably can do a much better one tho, and spread it to new viewers. If you don't wanna watch or don't like it; no one is forcing you and nobody cares if you dont like it, in the same way that you don't care what I think.
@@nilslindstrom8087 indeed, most vids are not too detailed or in other languages, and the only TH-camr whos vids are based around the MS Estonia does his vids in finish or Estonian
Colgan: You're not allowed to sleep in crew rooms
Two pilots, who can't afford hotels because of low pay, slept in the crew rooms, and are tired: *crash the plane and kill everybody on board*
Colgan: *surprised pikachu face*
Really excited to watch this one 😁
Good break down.
I flew that route for over 10 years of with and flew on that plane several times.
RIP
To the passengers and crew of Colgan Air Flight 3407 and one person on the ground
Very extreme commuting!I use to commute 70km each way daily on the train 🚂 and I thought that was bad!
It's a pity there is not the same sympathy and concern for doctors who suffer fatigue.
I live about 20 minutes away from where the plane crashed, i remember the news coming out when I was younger, awful day
What? Here im gonna screw us up even more by putting flaps up!
Also not to be mention
The captain also appear to be fail in three checkride before this incident
Definition for checkride: A practical test, more commonly known as a checkride, is the Federal Aviation Administration examination which one must undergo in the United States to receive an aircraft pilot's certification, or a rating for additional flight privileges(From goggle, not me)
Next time try Google - I have heard that Goggle is not reliable... 🤣
Great video! Enjoy your time off!
From what I heard the first officer was only paid 16k a year. 😱
And as they say, when you pay peanuts 🥜 you get monkeys 🐒
It is freaking scary to know that you are on a rookie pair of 24 year old inexperienced hands in case human error occurs to the captain. Female officer shouldn't have flown that day.
@@jaimepablomartinezdelgado9426 were she not badly fatigued by horrendous hours, she would have been fine. But curious how you have decided to single her out...
@@Supatsu She only made things worse with the flap configuration, didn't she? That's all I am saying.
@@jaimepablomartinezdelgado9426 Neither of them should've, since they were too tired and and probably too ill.
Yes, they learn a lot with each crash and safety is just that much better. However, it is a very expensive lesson as 49 or so people had to die to learn it.
I remember this accident, and it made quite an impression on me, because I'd flown into Buffalo, the year before on a commuter plane similar to this one. The one thing I remember them trying to do was to blame this on icing. Apparently that had very little to do with it but somebody was trying to shift the blame from the irresponsibility of Colgan Airlines
Excellent video as usual! 👌
A bit fed up with misinformation of this case ...pilot fatigue is the weakest excuse .
These pilots were chatting away while in the zone , breaking sterile cockpit rules .
While airspeed decayed they put flaps out , reduced power and fought the stick shaker/pusher twice! She sealed their fate when the f/O put flaps up near stall ....this is flight school day one stuff .
The captain fought everything the aircraft could do to save itself from the pilots . The F/O killed them.
Wanna know why this bothers me so many years later?...
I worked in manufacturing and followed this aircraft from the first located part to type cert.
This video is turning a year old today!!!!
I’ve always wondered this but I’m finally gonna ask a potentially silly question - why did the nose up input exacerbate the stall when it wasn’t in a stall?
Wouldn’t throttle up and pulling back just climb the plane since he wasn’t even in stall conditions yet considering the info about the V Ref switch?
-Edit - *Obviously the answer to my own question is “no” but I’m just wondering why.
One thing a passenger does not want to hear is the captain yawning! Coffee, anyone?
I realize this is an old video an it has probably been brought up before but, Colgan did not require any pilots to commute to the base. They commuted by choice as I did for most of my career. You can’t put that one on the airline.
What a foolish move pulling back on a control stick when every indication of a stall is screaming at you. Such an error is a sign of a poorly trained pilot and they shouldn't have been flying anything let alone flying a commercial aircraft.
So tragic for all those people. A pilot applying back pressure to the yoke in response to a stall warning is like a driver pushing the accelerator instead of the brake. It should never happen.
Ngl the Dash 8 seems surprisingly safe for a modern turboprop that is widely used
Meanwhile the ATR 72…
Imagine a plane crashing into your home rip
my dad worked a couple miles from this, we still live near it today
There is a very little know aircraft accident in I believe 1947 when a BOAC as later known crashed in a water landing in Oman or one of the Gulf islands and the crash broke the plane in two. The plane was a seaplane which I believe was made by Sanders Rowe. To me it is interesting because it demonstrated the time it took to fly from India, whence it left, to southern England its home port.
Airlines really need to take more interest in the condition of their piolets. Mental and physical exhaustion happens to everyone but when you are in a high stress job, it just makes it all the more likely something tragic will happen. Also, (and I am speaking about The United States here, not sure about other countries) we live in a society that makes people feel pressured to work even when they aren't well. Calling in sick is seen as a weakness and some sort of indication you aren't committed to your job. How many piolets are in the air right now, who are sick and overworked but still showed up for work? The same happens with truck drivers and other professions where being exhausted and sick can result in mistakes that end in the tragic loss of lives.
Just a question, why are the long commutes common in the aviation industry?
Great videos. Bombardier pronunciation is “Bom-ba-deer”. 👍
retracting the flaps during a stall would have cause massive dip in altitude, especially if they didnt add power and continued to keep that pressure on the yolk. Possibly a very similar situation to a power off stall, but removing laps was more than likely the deadliest thing here; I'm making the assumption that as she pulled flaps as the plane was stalling more than likely one of the wings stalled even further and potentially cause more aggravation into the belly up of the plane. I could be wrong this video is my first look at this accident.
I lived only 4.5 miles from this crash. Captain was incompetent on the DASH 8 Q-400. He had failed his check ride 5 times before but hid it from Colgan Air.
Hooray finally
2:18 something seems very odd here #physics
Uh.... No??
The gears are just under the engines.
The ladder blocks the port sight from view, and the starboard side is outside the frame
Nope
How does a pilot not automatically add throttle when they get a stall warning? 🤔
This wasn't mentioned in the video but he did add power, only to 75% though (report, page 5). Of course this did little to help given everything else they did.
I think that many regional airlines in the US have crews from all over the County and tiredness is very commonplace, ultimately leading to accidents. Its not the first crash to be caused by pilot exhaustion and sadly, it won't be the last.
Nice. Got just enough time before work to watch lmao
Have a good shift! 👍
The Bombardier Q400! Awesome bird. Wasn’t that the same plane Beebo tried out?
have you heard of Pacific Southwest Airlines Flight 710
i have heard the head of the ntsb say just that, with each crash we learn how to make planes more safe, i imagine he meant it to instill confidence, but that just makes us sound like Guinea pigs
The video was stopped and YT made me watch a Buffalo Niagara airport commercial 😶
Guys, any idea about the background piano pieces used in the channel?
Where are all those people who say that nothing can go wrong on a flight?
Autopilot dependence is a leading cause of mistakes in a modern cockpit. Pilot should be made to fly manually x number of hours a month.
“The cause was fatigue and poor work environment for regional airlines” so now the FAA increased the minimum hours to 1,500h and kept the regionals dog shot
Why did he do that? Pull back on the stick in stall conditions. He was an experienced pilot.
they shouldn't have been flying that night.
Flaps also change angle of attack.
Hi could you do a video about Spanair flight 5022?
Hello. I actually already have a video on it right here: th-cam.com/video/hTZIGZ8bCXo/w-d-xo.html&ab_channel=DisasterBreakdown
I love you, Chloe, but it's 'Bom-bA-Dear. x
The pilots are comfortable??
ABSOLUTELY UNACCEPTABLE
Wow!