Big E could just come down there and fight alongside him and you would have the most loyal angron ever. His petty reason not to saved his son people lead him to what his is now.
@@christophercombs7561Russ and Vulkan have a good childhood. Russ was raised by chieftain of tribe and became his successor. Vulkan have family who raised him
@vladimirthegreen6097 russ was raised in the most brutal environment possible the same with many other primarchs tribal nordic culture amped up to 100 isnt conducive to a soft easy childhood my guy
What ironic is that Gulliman snd Angron weren't that far from eachother before the Emperor found them. If Ultramar decided to expand east, things could've been drastically different
Angron would probably have been the leader of Ultramar’s armies and military while Gulliman would go full in on logistics and stuff. This is my head canon of what happens if Gulliman arrived on Angrons home planet. Personally I believe he would have recognized Angron for who he truly is the moment he lays his eyes on him.
Ultramar didn't exist until after the Emperor arrived. Angron got the nails implanted pretty quickly - it's a testament to his strength that he stayed a (broadly) functional individual for YEARS between then and the Emperor's arrival.
@locarno24 Guilliman's Mccraggian Empire did though, everyone kinda forgets that while it was nowhere near the 500 worlds, Guilliman had a multi-system empire when the Great Crusade arrived. but yeah Angron got the nails long before Mccrag could ever have reached him. but the nails weren't what made Angron betray.
@@kazmark_gl8652 no he didn't. Macragge was 'in contact with other worlds' it hadn't conquered them. At the point the Emperor reached Espandor (literally the adjacent system, who told him about Konor's son), he hadn't even finished conquering Macragge. The one with the pre-contact interstellar empire was Dorn, not Guilliman.
Guilliman answering like Angron doesn't have an unending Torture device that has ruptured his psyche for centuries. G-man would be equally fucked up if not more
@@Dr_Weirdoo If that is the tract we are accepting, then Angron's words are nothing more than the demented ravings of someone whose psyche has been ruptured by an unending torture device. You don't get to have this both ways.
@@Dr_Weirdoo For all his rage and violence, Angron is a self-pitying coward, and engaging in spiteful self-pity. There was nothing right his words here.
@@twilightwyrm One thing doesnt cancel the other. Angron may bitch and moan about his life a Lot, but in truth he may be (besides perhaps Lorgar) the only Primarch that deserves the Right to complain about not only the hand he was dealt but also the treatment he recieved from the Emperor In Master of Mankind the Emperor states it clearly. EVERYTHING causes him pain, just existing puts him in excruciating pain that is only numbed by killing. Not only that, but the Butcher's nails continue to grow and consume his brain, meaning not only the Emperor can't take them out without killing him, but the pain Will just keep growing. Not only that but besides for few moments of lucidity or Angron pushing through the pain, the Nails just dull any other emotion that isn't violence to zero, Angron LITERALLY can't feel empathy most of the time. Guilliman may think he toasted Angron with that phrase but How the fuck do You expect someone to get better when they physically fucking can't? He can talk all the shit he wants, but Guilliman was adopted by a king, raised properly and nurtured by Konor and Tarasha. Angron was beaten up by Eldar hours after being born, Enslaved, mutilated and lobotomized and then the only chance to die on his own terms ripped away from him as everyone he ever cared about was slaughtered. G-Man saw the Emperor for what he stood for, an idea of a united humanity. Angron always saw him for what he was, a Tyrant that would kill anyone who didn't agree with the Idea. Angron was perfectly fine with turning traitor, not because he hated humanity but because he hated the Emperor, and he would kill as much as necessary to fuck him over as hard as he could for taking him away from the battlefield in Nuceria
One of the many reasons why I hate Eredia. She knew, again she KNEW what Chaos was, how corrupting it is, and how they play the long game. Yet in her brilliance scattered the Primarchs across a ununified still tainted by Old Night galaxy. Because the Emperor created a "I Win" button mere years before rolling it out. She needs a retcon.
Relatively new to 40k. Help me out here,is she still canon? I see her mentioned alot by fans but I haven't come across her in the books I've read so far.
Love the double meaning when talking about courage and honor, he talks about hia past, but also the present, accusing the emperor of being an enslaver and a tyrant.
The sad part? This Betrayal could have easily been avoided if the Emperor just saved Angron’s army from its annihilation, by sending in the 4 Custodes!!! to fight, and then removing the Butcher’s Nails..
Hell, it could have been avoided without the Emperor’s involvement. Nuceria borders on Ultramar, if Guilliman’s father or Guilliman himself had expended further, the two Primarchs would have met- possibly before Angron would even get the nails.
@@SoulsOnly Yeah, it's one of the main characteristics of Angron's story. As for Big E just leaving without a long conversation, I'm pretty sure that part of the deal for the knowledge of the warpcraft to create the primarchs was that half of them would turn traitor. He knew almost instantly that Angron was permanently lost to him and didn't get emotionally invested.
@@Thalanoxthat makes it an even WORSE decision. If he knew half his sons would turn, then might as well train them in such a way that their behavior is regular and predictable. Also, I somehow doubt E is ever motivated by “attachment”.
What's sad about this is Angron was supposed to be the kindest, next to Vulkan. Hell, maybe even above. Sadly, Emp's bastard wife believed that sending them to the galaxy's worst planets was a good idea.
Erda was right. The Emperor only wanted disposable tools of bloodshed, that's what he made the Primarchs for. Erda wanted actual sons, and she scattered them so that someone might actually raise them properly if the Emperor refused to. Surprise, surprise, the Primarchs that didn't have messed up childhoods turned out loyalists. Read Saturnine and get the full context for why Erda did what she did. It's worth it.
It is unlikely she knew where each primarch was 'sent', it was sort of random. But she did make a mistake sure. Emperor made a quite a few himself raising Angron. Or I shouldn't say raising, neglecting is more like it...
@@twenty-fifth420 according to Malcador, the Emporer specifically chose them to be brothers, instead of sisters, hoping they would compete, have the best get to the top, fight for glory, all that. Malcador clearly saw that as a mistake. Hell, the emporer made the Custodes, then made the primarchs, but in a way, the Custodes are superior. Obviously primarchs can kill Custodes, but Custodes are built to be frankly what the primarchs were meant to be. I don't think even if the primarchs were all raised on Terra in a special tech nursery things would have changed much. In fact, the best would probably be far more flaccid, even if the worst were more pallid. Hell, we don't even know if the Emporer truly wasn't aware of Erda's plans thanks to chaos's influence (which I don't blame her, why make these brilliant beings just to have them lay waste to the galaxy?), or if both Erda's plans and the primarch betrayals were all things he either foresaw or believed could happen. We're talking about someone capable of being the fifth chaos God, after all, and if he truly does end up being a chaos God, whether it's benevolent to mankind or not, it means, through the warp, he will transcend time and space, and his past self, given his previous psyker abilities, would know everyone that would happen to him. The fact that he went onto the ship to kill Horus somewhat says that, as does the fact he was close to becoming a true warp entity at that time, as well. Frankly, he either foolishly believed in the primarchs, as though no son of a father had ever betrayed him in the tens of thousands of years of human history he had lived, or he knew some would betray him, because it was part of his plan. Otherwise I don't know why he wouldn't have installed psychic killswitches in all of them. Hell, in all of the space marines. A genetic organ that, when it receives the right psychic energy only the emporer could know and send, would kill someone.
Hell, and I'm just throwing this out there cuz it's warhammer, and warhammer defies logic, for all we know the Emporer himself was the chaos who contacted Erda, given his psychic might over the warp, for he realized he couldn't raise his sons on his own, but he also couldn't personally part with them. There's so many mysteries in the canon, who really knows the truth until some author comes and paints it clear to us. Hell, we still only have bread crumbs about two of the primarchs and legions. And hell, when it comes to the Alpha legion and its primarchs, we truly know little, despite them being supposed traitors. But are they? Is one dead? Hell, can any primarch truly die, or did the emporer imbue them with such warp energy that, like him, or perhaps any perpetual, they're merely adrift in the warp?
people allways forget to mention how Guilliman clapped back: ‘You’re still a slave, Angron. Enslaved by your past, blind to the future. Too hateful to learn. Too spiteful to prosper.’
@@santiagovazquezvilarino6791At what point do your actions belong to you and anything else is just an excuse? Kurze used the same type of justifications for his sadism. We also have examples of other loyalist Primarchs that had really shitty upbringings and some were also slaves. The Blood Angels have a literal geneseed flaw that turns them into mindless berserkers filled with bloodlust yet they have remained loyalists and try to protect the Imperium. Angron is tragic, yes, and the nails and his upbringing influenced his behavior but he still made his own choices. I think, even with the nails, Angron could have been like Kharn before Kharn turned to Chaos but he chose not to
@@santiagovazquezvilarino6791its easy to Pick the lazy way too, angron fought battles in flesh and blood sure but he never bothered to learn how to cope and deal wirh his "trauma" thats why he IS chlidish... always seeking nothing but the inmediate Reaktion (in his case a whiney cry Baby tantrum) about how unfair everything is... well... he shoulda learnt to just fkn cope and learn outta how his oppresors treated him to not make the same mistskes... but again he was to lazy and forever whining about the passt. The emperor shoulda recognized the shitstain angron is/was the noment he saw him and just wiped said stain away... angron is shit, just like Erebus... another whiney lil bitch, both weak, useless, selfish losers that never learned to cope and never grew up.
@@santiagovazquezvilarino6791 They do not and did not live a normal person lifespan. Angron also did not spend a century or anywhere close in his home planet, he spent I give it 20-30 years. Yes he had the butcher nails after that but the emperor got him out of there. Angron had a tragic past and lived in agony for a long time but he lived centuries and let 20-30 years define him. Like someone else said, there are other primarchs who had it bad and they didnt let that define them.
“They called me slave and put nails in my brain, so now I’m gonna enslave/murder humanity with my army of genesons (who I will force to undergo the same brain butchery I whine about).” -Childish Primarch
@@Briselance Ambivalent dismissal of human suffering the moment it's inconvenient to them is about how the Imperium operates. The Imperium stands in self-righteous condemnation of everything else, nothing condemns the Imperium and lives.
He was dealt a bad hand and instead of playing it to the best of his abilities he decsended into self-pity, abused his legion and let hatred consume his very soul. Tragic? Yes. Heroic? Far from it.
@@DzinkyDzinkImagine using the phrase "descended into self-pity" to describe a man who had his brain cut open and pain-generating spikes shoved in, without a hint of irony
It was ripped away from him he was dragged away by the emperor he lost his courage and his honor as he gave his word to those slaves he’d stay and fight with them , he was made a betrayer an oath breaker , then the emperor forced him to kneel spitting on his pride as a warrior his pride as a leader and his pride as a soldier, the emotion even said “ I hope one day you’ll understand angron “ I’ll say it again the emperor of man kind is a basterd lying ass hole who with years of living should’ve learned how to actually treat people as people and not tools the primarchas were seen as tools not living breathing people
@sigmametroid2630 Corax landed on a world where the slaves still outnumbered their leadership, and... unlike Angron, 90% of his brain wasn't replaced by a machine that makes intelligent thought literally painful. Corax, also, had a Primarch power that was useful for guerilla warfare. Angron's power was, near as we can tell, healing. Corax *also* still had the innate charisma of a primarch, which Angron lost when the nails were installed. Like, let's be fair, Angron had the worst deal of any of the Primarchs by such a wide margin, the Emperor literally contemplates if it might be easier to remake him from scratch at one point.
@@mrplimbles7803 Angron got fucked up in that fight by Guilliman who both had his skull cracked by juiced-up Lorgar's power maul and had no energy in his power fists. He's described as having suffered serious damage before overwhelming Bobby G who was already seriously wounded and practically unarmed.
@@Ralldoron Think you are remembering it wrong. Gulliman had Lorgar on the back foot for their entire 1v1, and Angron popped into frame and beat him sensless. Angron stood over the downed Gulliman who was trying to crawl away. The "good guys" are allowed to lose to better fighters, and he definately did.
Neither had it as bad as Angron. Angron had the butcher's nail, which made him kill his father figure. he can`t even grieve the death of his family as the butcher's nail prevents him. so counter point void.
@@JayJayM57 counter point he was raised by a great father figure it was just unfortunate that he was taken as a slave and forced to take the butcher's nails however he was not incapable feeling other emotions nor was he incapable of making rational decisions he instead used the experience he suffered as an excuse to explain away all of his horrible actions. The dumbest part was the Emperor had planned to remove the butcher's nails at the end of the great crusade hell Crawl himself was trying to figure out how to turn the nails off.
@@zambekiller They amplify the user's rage and aggression, making them violent warriors. They not only cause the user intense pain, but they also make them capable of finding pleasure from acts of violence and aggression. what part of that sound capable of "feeling other emotions or was he incapable of making rational decision"?
If anyone wants to see the full exchange bwtween the two, go watch Chris Glass' VA of this scene. He does some fantastic voice acting! Edit: 216. Hot damn. Thanks for all the likes guys! For the Emperor and or let the Galaxy burn!
Like MLK said “The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of convenience and comfort, but where he stands at times of challenge and controversy," Angron made his choice when he made his personal torment galaxy spanning
@oattyrant2035 A quick fact check reveals that the only piece of evidence that people have for that claim is dubious at best. Like many other black activist organizations, he vocally supported Palestinian emancipation.
Angron was designed to be the empathic soul of the Imperium in so many ways, his Primarch novel was really telling. The dude was tortured and betrayed in so many ways, but even at his worst he's got a knack for connecting the emotions of others
Though, Khorne gave Angron one thing no one ever gave him. Peace. After Angron blew up a planet and unleashed a rage plague. Khorne gifted Angron what the Choas God sees and experiences. For the 8 weeks, 8 days, 8 hours, and 8 seconds. Angron experiences true peace. He felt no rage, no anger, no pain. Khorne did something Big E never did for Angron. Gave him a figurative hug. Fuck, now I am imagining the image of Khorne hugging Angron, lol. It is cursed, rofl.
I consider Angron simply berserk. This is a fabulous chance to see him dismantle Gullimans argument, counter & provide his world view. Huh, gotta see if he does that more
@anirecapped. Maybe 'dismantle' was a poor choice of word. 'Rebutle' probably would have been better. I don't particularly like Angron, what I'm saying is I appreciate this moment he's talking with the golden boy of what used to be the Mary sue Legion. Laying out the disparity between they're realities. It's not fabulous character work, I like that it's the start of what could have been an interesting dynamic.
@anirecapped.If by hot garbage you mean the truth, the entire conversation is agron castigating gilomen for acting as though his upbringing makes him better, to be honest, Guiliman shows how little he understands his brother, when he asks if the butcher's nails twisted his loyalty, but anyone with a shred of common Sense could see that agron would have no reason to ever hold loyalty to the imperium, this man was forced to watch the only people he cared about in his entire life die, and his brother's call him insane when he wants to betray and murder the man who made him do that, I would probably be about as pissed as angron if I felt like I was suffering in the dark where no one cared about me, while a pain engine ripped through my skull and destroyed every concept of emotion, so of all the trailers, angron has every reason to go against the emperor, because all the emperor ever did was treat him the exact way the high riders did, so why would he have any reason to believe that the emperor wasn't just another high Rider bastard (in short, angron has a brain that functions less than half as well as his brothers, but his reasoning for betraying the emperor is the most sound, and his reasons for frustration against his brothers are just as sound because he can't understand why they don't see that they're being manipulated, because he can only see any act of kindness that comes from the emperor as manipulation, Since he saw the worst of the man)
Angron has a point, but he forgets, that guiliman had learned a hard lesson as well. Unlike angron, guiliman is able to take responsibility for his mistakes, angron meanwhile saw neither purpose nor love in a legion that was as honorable as he was, before the nails took away their humanity!
The moment Angron was gonna take ultimate responsibility for his actions was ripped away by the emperor when he teleported him out of that battle, left him a bit pissed lol
@@InnocentThief952so your dad literally kidnaps you from battle to have you chained in a prison while your friends and what could be considered as family get obliterated while he does nothing and then gives you his soldiers how would you not be angry
@@Unregistered.Hypercam.2.See. That is why I like Angron, but as an antagonist, as it makes sense, but he still chooses to be where he is, and he can only blame himself for that. I like Angron as a character, but he is no arbiter of righteous morals.
One had the best upbringing and took full advantage of it, becoming a shining leader, the other had everything against him from start to finish and never gave up fighting, overall an exelent example of the conflict of two respectable characters.
Except for the most part, he did give up. Robot man responds to his remarks by saying he is still a slave which is true for all that talk of courage? He never accomplished anything with it, it never got him anywhere. Also Angron is a bully, it is insane for him to speak of courage with how he treated everyone else. (The world eaters who had the courage to stand up against him and call him out for his barbarism were slaughtered by him with no shred of respect or thought)
@@draketurtle4169 Good point but you have to consider that all of this is after he got kidnapped by the emperor, after this he was basically searching for a way to die, and after all the people you ever cared for are dead what reason do you have to be nice? And remember that he was still dying, in constant pain and without his primarch powers. He gave up but becouse he was dead inside by that point.
@@TheWoodsman308 I mean his own legion nearly killed him ot at least from their perspective thought they might have when using their warp powers to try and calm him.
@@draketurtle4169 But if you think about it Angron wasn't even himself by that point. I'm not justifing what he did, but he was the only primarch with no powers and that may have to do with his brain being cut to ribbons and put together, wich may have also taken that feeling of respect the astartes have for their primarch (but in the situation you are describing they had VERY good reasons). Overall I love the world eaters becouse they are the only legion wich we don't know the full potential, they didn't get a fully powered primarch and we aren't even sure their role (shock assault specialists) was theirs to begin with. I think that the return of a SANE Angron would be a MASSIVE impact on the story, just becouse he would probably wish to redeem himself or his sons memory for what he made them do in his insanity.
@@draketurtle4169Angron doesn't say away from what he is now, but pay attention, cause guilliman and the others I the grand scale of things are no better. They follow the emperor and are all too cowardly to stand against HIS barbarism and brutality
@efestohorus2053 but before all that when baby angron landed on the planet the eldar attempted to kill him and it was why he was to weak to fend off the slavers so had they not he would have been able to probably conquer the planet
So few seem to understand that Angron is the most tragic as he never even got a chance to ever choose. Not when the eldar attacked him as an infant after crashing landing when he was baseball pitched by Khorne at the planet. Not when he was forced to be a child gladiator. Not when he was told to kill his adoptive father, and when he tried to refuse, he was lobotomized, and the nails forced into his brain, loosing his primarch ability and forever plaguing him with unbearable pain that erases your emotions besides rage, THEN forced to kill his dad. Not when he tried to save all of his slave family. Not when he wanted to die with them. Not when the emperor enslaved him to be another dog, and then knocking Angron out flat when he refused. Not in the orginal canon where his space marines decided to implant the nails in themselves to be closer to him, which he hated (retconned in a later book where once he saw the first successful ones, out of spite told them to continue be implanted in everyone, though most of them wanted them anyway) Not when Lorgar forcibly cast a ritual on Angron while he was finally going to die from the nails and be released from his existence, only to have a leash forced on him by his brother and given to Khorne, who thought itd be funny to keep the nails in demon Angron. He felt like his one choice was betraying the emperor, thus siding with horus who he hated too, but less than the emperor. And even that too was most likely by Chaos and the Emperor's own design, with how he had already claimed Angron as failed tool right from the get, and the Emperor seemingly always knew half of his sons would betray him. Tl;dr Angron never had a chance to choose; not his feelings, not his circumstance, not his future, not even his sins. Not even his death.
Angron is the most emphatic Primarch; he instinctively knows how human emotions work. Even a pure Grey Knight like Teloman couldn't resist the persuasion of anger and hate inflicted by Angron himself In the novel Angron the Red angel from David Guymer.
I have a feeling that for the Primarch Project, Angron was originally designed to be a defensive strategist who would protect newly-conquered worlds. A leader who cared for his soldiers and prisoners alike. But the Warp twisted this fate, and made him the most violent and brutal of the Primarchs.
@Keram-io8hv, yes, he improved in this one, particularly in representing who Angron is and making him more complex than just a raging dumb barbarian. He delved into how Angron caused suffering among his sons, leading them to fall to chaos. There's a side story about a chaos marine that I didn't love, but the book itself is very funny and epic to read."
I like how in the last few years, a bunch of writers looked at Angron and went "Hey, what if instead of being a joke, Angron had the kind of insights ONLY someone from his situation would?" And the results are astonishing and brutal.
Guilliman talks down to the traitor primarchs, but forgets he was brought up in high class nobility in a paradise world with people who loved him. Meanwhile, Angron was a tortured slave, Konrad’s first memories are being burned alive and scrabbling through the dark, Mortarion was puppeteered his whole life, Magnus saw his entire culture condemned as heretical, and Lorgar saw his father destroy his world while hypocritically claiming to not be a god. The Emperor brought about his own ruin but Guilliman was to privileged to see it
Loved betrayer! Gave us a glimpse of why guilliman's ultramar was so effective, gave angron some much needed character development and I got to hear Erebus getting the shit kicked out of him by kharn!
@@Kingedwardiii2003 yeah but that’s not why Angron was mad at him Angron was mad at him because he had the nerve to call the reason that he betrayed the imperial childish
@@ThorGiske that’s not the reason he betrayed the emperor and that is also not the reason he’s mad at the emperor all the emperor had to do was to either a send the custodians to help Angron or b help Angron himself He did neither of those things and teleported him away, leaving his allies to die and forever brand him a coward on that planet and then basically said fuck your feelings here’s a lesion of super soldiers that I want you to command and do as you’re fucking told
@@Fallout4277.. Didn't he fall because his soul was straight up sold? Angron for all intend and purposes didn't really fall on his own if I recall right
Guilliman’s answer was even better: “You’re still a slave, Angron. Enslaved by your past, blind to the future. Too hateful to learn. Too spiteful to prosper.” G man wasn’t holding back lol
If the Eldar didn't try to kill him, everything would've been fine. Only their failed assassination attempt made all of Angron's tragedy possible in the first place.
Except that Angron was already a failure before that and he let's his anger control him. And before anyone says he can't help it, Sangunius has a greater anger and he keeps it under wraps
Except there is little truth to what he said and he is ultimately a massive hypocrite (very similar to mortarion). He talks about courage yet uses his gifts to trod and oppress anything weaker than him. And funnily enough for someone who preaches courage, freedom and overcoming those that restrict you… he not only once but twice made the choice to be a slave to a new master. He never stopped being a slave.
@@draketurtle4169 nah bro I listened to both sides and I see who is correct here and who isn’t. You’re just coping for Smurf Daddy. This is ONE L in several lifetimes of wins, just grow up and take it
I'm pretty sure that's even more reason why he's Raging all the time. Because all he wants to do is die and let this hell be over, but Khorne won't let him.
@@504godzilla Neither did the Emperor, but then again he didn't need to lie to Angron. The emperor said "Be my attack dog." and Angron did as he was told, even if begrudgingly.
To me, Angron is simply the epitome of tragedy. He was born to be a healer, a machine made for compassion and love, and yet he was turned into a monster knowing only rage. He never wanted this. He never wanted to be a villain as a child. He didn’t want the nails. He was nurtured into being a beast, but he was born to be a hero amongst heroes. Wroth low, he is an animal now. But upon high he would have been an angel next to his brother bearing wings of honor instead of feather. Tragedy made manifest.
And after He was turned into a Daemon Prince, He can not longer talk but growl, snarl, scream, and roar like a maddened blood-spilling, carnage craving Beast.
Despite he cries the Ultramarines to have false honor, and being meer subjects to a tyrant. For someone who think honor is having to resist a tyrant, he'd sure subjected himself to the worst tyrant you could ever imagine serving under..
Angron then goes on to be a man of like 2 words with a career of being khorne's punching bag and his chapters effectively used as a stereotype for a shit person to play with/against.
Angron was trying to save his people and big e ripped him away from that war. Causing his followers to be slaughtered to the man as the cried for their champion to rescue them. Fully aware of his followers death's and the cost of his removal the guilt and grief are what he brought into the imperium with
Angron intended to lead his troops into a suicide charge. He wanted to die on his planet. He could have offered his loyalty in exchange for the Emperor saving his people and punishing those that kept him in chains but he didn’t. Granted, The Emperor never offered that either. Hell he could have just had his troops run ahead of Angron and his gladiators and bring the planet into compliance by force before he could even have the opportunity to fight.
Worst yet is that the Nucerian slaver lords branded him a coward who abandoned his people when the fight turned, which understandably made him even more bitter
This is extremely misleading, because Guilliman immediately berates Angron back for his wallowing and refusal to accept any blame for his actions: ‘You’re still a slave, Angron. Enslaved by your past, blind to the future. Too hateful to learn. Too spiteful to prosper.’
Not really. Angron's argument hinges on the idea that you cannot be Courageous or Honorable if you grew up in a decent envrionment which is nonsense. Guilliman was 'privileged' yes, but he took all those advantages and used them to make his world(s) better.
@@sarethuskami5082 you speak as if Angron ever had a chance. Angron was never given an opportunity to choose his feelings, his circumstances, not his future, And not even his death. - the Eldar attacked him as an infant. - he was forced to be a child gladiator. - when he was told to kill his adoptive father, and when he tried to refuse, he was lobotomized, and the nails forced into his brain, losing his primarch ability and forever plaguing him with unbearable pain that erases your emotions besides rage, then forced to kill his dad. - when he tried to save all of his slave family. the nails prevent him from being tactical. - when he wanted to die with his family the emperor took him. - the emperor, his father, enslaved him to be another dog, and then knocked Angron out flat when he refused.
Angron is perhaps the most tragic. Each Primarch was designed to THE BEST at something. Roboute was the best at civil adminstration, Magnus was best with Psyker powers, Dorn was best with building fortifications, Perturabo was best at ATTACKING fortifications, and so on. Angron was designed to be the best at Military Strategy, yet the nails rendered him barely better than an animal.
If I had an interdimensional time machine, I'd save Angron. I'm wondering if there will ever be a chance to perfectly clone Angron, like GW did with Fulgrim.
There is a theory that I love and personally ascribe to: had Angron not suffered the Butcher's nails, he would've prevented the Heresy... or at the very least, delayed it to a more optimum time for the Emperor and Malchidor's plans.
The thing I love about the traitor Primarchs is that most of them truly think they are doing the right thing and aren't just cartoonishly evil without any true motivation
Except lorgar , when he talked with Magnus about lifting the veil of reality and the warp by torturing and making suffer the ultramar sector he had no valuable reason beyond just doing evil for the sake of it
@@dontaejones7419 Im playing Devils advocate here but, Wasn't Logar emotionally abused by Kor and Erabus while growing up? And both of them working together to make Logar go over the edge and become a traitor? I don't like Logar ether but...
This makes Angron come across as worse, not better. He’s cognizant enough to make this argument, that means he definitely realizes he’s a mass murderer of innocent humans on a scale that none of his other brothers could match pre-corruption of Horus.
Cant deny he had such a tragic start. But he rose to be a primarch . To have what he didnt. He bitches alot here. And it looks like hes having a childish tantrum and justifying his fall to chaos. Primarchs rise against adversity . Angron just a failure
I feel bad for Angron, but he's coming up with excuses. Guilliman was raised with a silver spoon in his mouth, but he didn't rest on his laurels. Look at what he turned his opportunity into! And the Imperium is so much stronger for it!
@@kinguchiha6212 I always read that as an unconscious plea to have someone come and kill him. "I'm committing these crimes against your warriors, I'm disobeying these orders, I'm going MIA all the time, I'm genociding entire planets for no reason, WHY WON'T YOU KILL ME?? WHAT WILL IT TAKE TO GET YOU TO KILL ME?? I'm going to just keep on committing these crimes until someone comes and kills me, PLEASE DO IT SOON!" Like a "suicide by cop" that happens far too frequently, where the person wants to die but can't pull the trigger themselves, they try to get someone else to kill them, Angron couldn't simply take a Thunderhawk and pilot it into a sun, he had to have someone else kill him. (though that could be one hell of a Grim-Dark story, having a World Eater watch as Angron takes a Thunderhawk and tries again, and again, and again, to fly into a sun, only to have SOMETHING come up to make him turn away at the last minute, and come to the realization that there's something programmed into him that won't let him commit suicide - he has to be killed by someone else. What's it going to take to get someone else to finally kill him...?)
@@N0TYALC Except he didn’t force them. The World Eaters chose to implant the nails to be more like their gene father and to suffer like he suffers. He didn’t necessarily try to stop em tho nor did he particularly care what they did in general. Hell I’d be surprised if he even bothered to learn their names
@@shadowshandbroWhat are you going 'THIS' at? You've constantly said that it was Angron's fault for becoming a slave to chaos. You said that he became a slave to Khorne because, and I quote, "he couldn't rise above his failures." Hell one of the delusional people that agree with you said he begged Sanguineous not to kill him but he shouted "No!" Because Lorgar, the bitch, turned him into a deamon Primarch, making him effectively immortal, when all he wanted was death. Furthermore, the Imperium took EVERYTHING from him. He hated his legion because it represented what took everything from him. He never got help from the Imperium, he never got anything he wanted from the Imperium. he never got peace from Imperium. But after all that Khorne gave Angron what no one had bothered to try and give him. Khorne gave Angron peace. For 8 weeks, 8 days, 8 hours, and 8 seconds. Angron was forced into a choice that was made for him as soon as he was 'saved' by the Emperor. You are why I hate the cult-like state of the Imperium. You are blind yet you call the others, that can see clearly the truth, what you truly are. You shall get no further response from me blindman.
Lion El'Jonson landed in jungles infested with chaos beasts, vanquished them all, and didn't bitch about it. Angron failed to kill the slavers, conquer the planet, and never stopped whining.
I always feel Angron is a bit blind complaining about how he had to rise up when Corvus did just that and he turned out fine. The difference was made by who found them.
I appreciate the old school picture of Ultramarines
The Horus Hersey: Collected Visions is a treasure for any 40k oldschool fan.
I've got the Ultramarines board game that has it on the box front.
@@TKUltra971such a treasure of a book that so many havent even heard of, let alone seen
I love the beakie with shark teeth
Angron reasonably never got over being taken from his peoples final stand
That is what makes him so tragic.
People seem to forget he has literally zero reason to share any love for anything in the imperium, including his own astartes
Very similer to mortarion
Big E could just come down there and fight alongside him and you would have the most loyal angron ever. His petty reason not to saved his son people lead him to what his is now.
@sirDAMO57 at least with Morty, Big E won the battle for him. Angron just got snatched.
Damm for being the least mentally healthy man in the room angron sure is spitting bars right here
Except hes wrong sure gulliman had a better up bringing so hes a bad example amgron wouldnt dare say this to Russ or Vulkan
@@christophercombs7561Russ and Vulkan have a good childhood. Russ was raised by chieftain of tribe and became his successor. Vulkan have family who raised him
@vladimirthegreen6097 russ was raised in the most brutal environment possible the same with many other primarchs tribal nordic culture amped up to 100 isnt conducive to a soft easy childhood my guy
@@christophercombs7561But what did the people in his tribe call him. Son, hero, etc. Angron was called a slave and had no father
@danielburks2257 another perhaps more accurate one is the lion he landed on caliban and effectively lived by himself for nearly his whole childhood
Angron's last six functional brain cells gave it everything they had for this one monologue
Still failed.
angron was so real for this
Dodging accountability more like lol
@@DreadPages ?? Rowboat Girlyman fan?
@@pedrodontyoumind3820One doesn't have to be a fan of Roboute to know that his response was correct.
@@shadowshandbro Mald?
No Angron is a leftist woke trash with a victim mentality.
This was probably the best VA for this scene I've heard the spot coming off angron just barely keeping it together mmm you really outdid for this one
Tell me about it, Angron was really holding back from throwing an axe at Rowboat
many thanks
His Mortarion vs Guilliman video also went hard.
I'm weirdly used to hearing him more as a snarly, oddly high pitched sort of guy as opposed to a low bass sort.
I would have agreed to you if it didn't remind me of Filthy Frank for a second
What ironic is that Gulliman snd Angron weren't that far from eachother before the Emperor found them. If Ultramar decided to expand east, things could've been drastically different
Angron would probably have been the leader of Ultramar’s armies and military while Gulliman would go full in on logistics and stuff. This is my head canon of what happens if Gulliman arrived on Angrons home planet. Personally I believe he would have recognized Angron for who he truly is the moment he lays his eyes on him.
Ultramar didn't exist until after the Emperor arrived. Angron got the nails implanted pretty quickly - it's a testament to his strength that he stayed a (broadly) functional individual for YEARS between then and the Emperor's arrival.
@locarno24 Guilliman's Mccraggian Empire did though, everyone kinda forgets that while it was nowhere near the 500 worlds, Guilliman had a multi-system empire when the Great Crusade arrived.
but yeah Angron got the nails long before Mccrag could ever have reached him. but the nails weren't what made Angron betray.
@@kazmark_gl8652ngl angron would of betrayed either way if lorgar asked nicely since that was the only primarch he got along with
@@kazmark_gl8652 no he didn't. Macragge was 'in contact with other worlds' it hadn't conquered them. At the point the Emperor reached Espandor (literally the adjacent system, who told him about Konor's son), he hadn't even finished conquering Macragge.
The one with the pre-contact interstellar empire was Dorn, not Guilliman.
"‘You’re still a slave, Angron. Enslaved by your past, blind to the future. Too hateful to learn. Too spiteful to prosper.’" -Guilliman's Response
Guilliman answering like Angron doesn't have an unending Torture device that has ruptured his psyche for centuries.
G-man would be equally fucked up if not more
@@Dr_Weirdoo If that is the tract we are accepting, then Angron's words are nothing more than the demented ravings of someone whose psyche has been ruptured by an unending torture device.
You don't get to have this both ways.
@@twilightwyrm difference being Angron was right
@@Dr_Weirdoo For all his rage and violence, Angron is a self-pitying coward, and engaging in spiteful self-pity. There was nothing right his words here.
@@twilightwyrm One thing doesnt cancel the other.
Angron may bitch and moan about his life a Lot, but in truth he may be (besides perhaps Lorgar) the only Primarch that deserves the Right to complain about not only the hand he was dealt but also the treatment he recieved from the Emperor
In Master of Mankind the Emperor states it clearly. EVERYTHING causes him pain, just existing puts him in excruciating pain that is only numbed by killing. Not only that, but the Butcher's nails continue to grow and consume his brain, meaning not only the Emperor can't take them out without killing him, but the pain Will just keep growing. Not only that but besides for few moments of lucidity or Angron pushing through the pain, the Nails just dull any other emotion that isn't violence to zero, Angron LITERALLY can't feel empathy most of the time.
Guilliman may think he toasted Angron with that phrase but How the fuck do You expect someone to get better when they physically fucking can't?
He can talk all the shit he wants, but Guilliman was adopted by a king, raised properly and nurtured by Konor and Tarasha.
Angron was beaten up by Eldar hours after being born, Enslaved, mutilated and lobotomized and then the only chance to die on his own terms ripped away from him as everyone he ever cared about was slaughtered.
G-Man saw the Emperor for what he stood for, an idea of a united humanity. Angron always saw him for what he was, a Tyrant that would kill anyone who didn't agree with the Idea.
Angron was perfectly fine with turning traitor, not because he hated humanity but because he hated the Emperor, and he would kill as much as necessary to fuck him over as hard as he could for taking him away from the battlefield in Nuceria
One of the many reasons why I hate Eredia. She knew, again she KNEW what Chaos was, how corrupting it is, and how they play the long game. Yet in her brilliance scattered the Primarchs across a ununified still tainted by Old Night galaxy. Because the Emperor created a "I Win" button mere years before rolling it out. She needs a retcon.
She isn't cannon. She is word-vomit from Dan Abnett.
Relatively new to 40k. Help me out here,is she still canon? I see her mentioned alot by fans but I haven't come across her in the books I've read so far.
she was one off and hated by the bulk of the Fandom her only retcon should involve her being Thanos snapped from existence.
@@Lunardivider24she's not canon
There is no such character in warhammer 40k, you must be lost from the greek mythology corner
Love the double meaning when talking about courage and honor, he talks about hia past, but also the present, accusing the emperor of being an enslaver and a tyrant.
I mean...Life in the Hive Cities exists?
The sad part? This Betrayal could have easily been avoided if the Emperor just saved Angron’s army from its annihilation, by sending in the 4 Custodes!!! to fight, and then removing the Butcher’s Nails..
Hell, it could have been avoided without the Emperor’s involvement.
Nuceria borders on Ultramar, if Guilliman’s father or Guilliman himself had expended further, the two Primarchs would have met- possibly before Angron would even get the nails.
Except even the Emperor couldn't remove the nails.
@@SoulsOnly Yeah, it's one of the main characteristics of Angron's story.
As for Big E just leaving without a long conversation, I'm pretty sure that part of the deal for the knowledge of the warpcraft to create the primarchs was that half of them would turn traitor. He knew almost instantly that Angron was permanently lost to him and didn't get emotionally invested.
@@Thalanoxthey literally make all the sense except for Fulgrim kinda wish he and the emperors children remained loyal
@@Thalanoxthat makes it an even WORSE decision. If he knew half his sons would turn, then might as well train them in such a way that their behavior is regular and predictable. Also, I somehow doubt E is ever motivated by “attachment”.
What's sad about this is Angron was supposed to be the kindest, next to Vulkan. Hell, maybe even above. Sadly, Emp's bastard wife believed that sending them to the galaxy's worst planets was a good idea.
Erda was right. The Emperor only wanted disposable tools of bloodshed, that's what he made the Primarchs for. Erda wanted actual sons, and she scattered them so that someone might actually raise them properly if the Emperor refused to. Surprise, surprise, the Primarchs that didn't have messed up childhoods turned out loyalists. Read Saturnine and get the full context for why Erda did what she did. It's worth it.
It is unlikely she knew where each primarch was 'sent', it was sort of random. But she did make a mistake sure. Emperor made a quite a few himself raising Angron.
Or I shouldn't say raising, neglecting is more like it...
@@twenty-fifth420 according to Malcador, the Emporer specifically chose them to be brothers, instead of sisters, hoping they would compete, have the best get to the top, fight for glory, all that. Malcador clearly saw that as a mistake. Hell, the emporer made the Custodes, then made the primarchs, but in a way, the Custodes are superior. Obviously primarchs can kill Custodes, but Custodes are built to be frankly what the primarchs were meant to be. I don't think even if the primarchs were all raised on Terra in a special tech nursery things would have changed much. In fact, the best would probably be far more flaccid, even if the worst were more pallid.
Hell, we don't even know if the Emporer truly wasn't aware of Erda's plans thanks to chaos's influence (which I don't blame her, why make these brilliant beings just to have them lay waste to the galaxy?), or if both Erda's plans and the primarch betrayals were all things he either foresaw or believed could happen. We're talking about someone capable of being the fifth chaos God, after all, and if he truly does end up being a chaos God, whether it's benevolent to mankind or not, it means, through the warp, he will transcend time and space, and his past self, given his previous psyker abilities, would know everyone that would happen to him. The fact that he went onto the ship to kill Horus somewhat says that, as does the fact he was close to becoming a true warp entity at that time, as well.
Frankly, he either foolishly believed in the primarchs, as though no son of a father had ever betrayed him in the tens of thousands of years of human history he had lived, or he knew some would betray him, because it was part of his plan. Otherwise I don't know why he wouldn't have installed psychic killswitches in all of them. Hell, in all of the space marines. A genetic organ that, when it receives the right psychic energy only the emporer could know and send, would kill someone.
Hell, and I'm just throwing this out there cuz it's warhammer, and warhammer defies logic, for all we know the Emporer himself was the chaos who contacted Erda, given his psychic might over the warp, for he realized he couldn't raise his sons on his own, but he also couldn't personally part with them.
There's so many mysteries in the canon, who really knows the truth until some author comes and paints it clear to us. Hell, we still only have bread crumbs about two of the primarchs and legions. And hell, when it comes to the Alpha legion and its primarchs, we truly know little, despite them being supposed traitors. But are they? Is one dead? Hell, can any primarch truly die, or did the emporer imbue them with such warp energy that, like him, or perhaps any perpetual, they're merely adrift in the warp?
@@metaleggman18erda is just a terrible addition to the lore and her existence should be considered not canon
Both watched their adoptive fathers die, the difference is Robute became his father’s avenger, while Angron was his father’s slayer.
people allways forget to mention how Guilliman clapped back: ‘You’re still a slave, Angron. Enslaved by your past, blind to the future. Too hateful to learn. Too spiteful to prosper.’
The only thing he could learn was to flipping off to the Emperor better.
It's easy to say that when every moment of your life isn't a trauma horrendous enough to break ten thousand men.
@@santiagovazquezvilarino6791At what point do your actions belong to you and anything else is just an excuse? Kurze used the same type of justifications for his sadism. We also have examples of other loyalist Primarchs that had really shitty upbringings and some were also slaves. The Blood Angels have a literal geneseed flaw that turns them into mindless berserkers filled with bloodlust yet they have remained loyalists and try to protect the Imperium. Angron is tragic, yes, and the nails and his upbringing influenced his behavior but he still made his own choices. I think, even with the nails, Angron could have been like Kharn before Kharn turned to Chaos but he chose not to
@@santiagovazquezvilarino6791its easy to Pick the lazy way too, angron fought battles in flesh and blood sure but he never bothered to learn how to cope and deal wirh his "trauma" thats why he IS chlidish... always seeking nothing but the inmediate Reaktion (in his case a whiney cry Baby tantrum) about how unfair everything is... well... he shoulda learnt to just fkn cope and learn outta how his oppresors treated him to not make the same mistskes... but again he was to lazy and forever whining about the passt. The emperor shoulda recognized the shitstain angron is/was the noment he saw him and just wiped said stain away... angron is shit, just like Erebus... another whiney lil bitch, both weak, useless, selfish losers that never learned to cope and never grew up.
@@santiagovazquezvilarino6791 They do not and did not live a normal person lifespan. Angron also did not spend a century or anywhere close in his home planet, he spent I give it 20-30 years. Yes he had the butcher nails after that but the emperor got him out of there.
Angron had a tragic past and lived in agony for a long time but he lived centuries and let 20-30 years define him. Like someone else said, there are other primarchs who had it bad and they didnt let that define them.
“The people of your world called you great one the people of my world called me slave” crazy line
"Yes, they did. And?"
“They called me slave and put nails in my brain, so now I’m gonna enslave/murder humanity with my army of genesons (who I will force to undergo the same brain butchery I whine about).”
-Childish Primarch
@@Briselance Ambivalent dismissal of human suffering the moment it's inconvenient to them is about how the Imperium operates.
The Imperium stands in self-righteous condemnation of everything else, nothing condemns the Imperium and lives.
@@patchwurk6652
::response to the last paragraph::
To do otherwise is to be consumed utterly and completely.
"Womp womp, big baby" -Guilliman
Angron was done so wrong by fate. He could've been one of the best among demigods.
He was dealt a bad hand and instead of playing it to the best of his abilities he decsended into self-pity, abused his legion and let hatred consume his very soul.
Tragic? Yes. Heroic? Far from it.
@DzinkyDzink I think the butcher's nails, the Emperor's intervention, and the eldar may have played a role in that
@@DzinkyDzink did you not read his story? he drugged to kill the only father figure he ever known.
@@DzinkyDzinkImagine using the phrase "descended into self-pity" to describe a man who had his brain cut open and pain-generating spikes shoved in, without a hint of irony
What’s ironic with this is that his “mom” did this to “protect” them.
I see why angron was truly angry now
one of the best things about warhammer lore is that none of the characters are one dimensional, and each one has an amazing story to tell
Angron had at one point known courage and honor…it died with his brothers and sisters on Nuceria
Never realized that double meaning in his words, and it only makes it sadder.
It was ripped away from him he was dragged away by the emperor he lost his courage and his honor as he gave his word to those slaves he’d stay and fight with them , he was made a betrayer an oath breaker , then the emperor forced him to kneel spitting on his pride as a warrior his pride as a leader and his pride as a soldier, the emotion even said “ I hope one day you’ll understand angron “ I’ll say it again the emperor of man kind is a basterd lying ass hole who with years of living should’ve learned how to actually treat people as people and not tools the primarchas were seen as tools not living breathing people
That Angron could still be that sane and speak such truths despite the nails shows his unbreakable will for resisting all the pain
Angron is one of those things that gives huge credit to the traitors
But like HE HAS A POINT THO LIKE XD
@@slidemguySay that to Corax.
@sigmametroid2630 Corax landed on a world where the slaves still outnumbered their leadership, and... unlike Angron, 90% of his brain wasn't replaced by a machine that makes intelligent thought literally painful. Corax, also, had a Primarch power that was useful for guerilla warfare. Angron's power was, near as we can tell, healing. Corax *also* still had the innate charisma of a primarch, which Angron lost when the nails were installed.
Like, let's be fair, Angron had the worst deal of any of the Primarchs by such a wide margin, the Emperor literally contemplates if it might be easier to remake him from scratch at one point.
Also Perterabo.
@@Mr.Monacleremake him?? How and why didn’t he
Guillimans biggest mistake is thinking angron had any loyalty to the emperor ever
Gullimans biggest mistake was getting into that fight. Man crawled away by luck and by chance - Angron was not going to let him leave alive
@@mrplimbles7803 Say what you will about Guilliman, but when he gets into a fight, he commits.
@@mrplimbles7803
Angron got fucked up in that fight by Guilliman who both had his skull cracked by juiced-up Lorgar's power maul and had no energy in his power fists. He's described as having suffered serious damage before overwhelming Bobby G who was already seriously wounded and practically unarmed.
@@Darksky1001able And he lost that one XD
@@Ralldoron Think you are remembering it wrong. Gulliman had Lorgar on the back foot for their entire 1v1, and Angron popped into frame and beat him sensless. Angron stood over the downed Gulliman who was trying to crawl away.
The "good guys" are allowed to lose to better fighters, and he definately did.
Roboute; sent to space Rome 😄
Angron; sent to space Rome 😭
Roboute: send to caesar imperial palece
Angron: crash landing into colosseum
@@jsomeone3108 Basically Megamind and Metroman if their powers were switched but their circumstances weren't
Nuceria is literally New Syria. Syria during the roman empire is a lot like nuceria in 30k.
Angron: Gee thanks mom
Seriously i wonder, if Guilliman had landed on nuceria and angron on ultramar what could have been the results.
counter point Sanguinius on Baal , corvus on his planet
They didn't get jumped by eldar with a tendency to make self-fulfilling prophacies and lobotomized after that
Neither had it as bad as Angron. Angron had the butcher's nail, which made him kill his father figure. he can`t even grieve the death of his family as the butcher's nail prevents him. so counter point void.
They still had a choice in how they lived their lives despite where they were raised. Angron did NOT.
@@JayJayM57 counter point he was raised by a great father figure it was just unfortunate that he was taken as a slave and forced to take the butcher's nails however he was not incapable feeling other emotions nor was he incapable of making rational decisions he instead used the experience he suffered as an excuse to explain away all of his horrible actions.
The dumbest part was the Emperor had planned to remove the butcher's nails at the end of the great crusade hell Crawl himself was trying to figure out how to turn the nails off.
@@zambekiller They amplify the user's rage and aggression, making them violent warriors. They not only cause the user intense pain, but they also make them capable of finding pleasure from acts of violence and aggression.
what part of that sound capable of "feeling other emotions or was he incapable of making rational decision"?
If anyone wants to see the full exchange bwtween the two, go watch Chris Glass' VA of this scene. He does some fantastic voice acting!
Edit: 216. Hot damn. Thanks for all the likes guys! For the Emperor and or let the Galaxy burn!
Link?
@@zenderthedragon don't think links work in comments. Sorry. Just search up Chris glass
@@zenderthedragonhere ya go. I personally prefer the Chris Glass version myself.
th-cam.com/video/8CYU2TQD2ZQ/w-d-xo.htmlsi=AmNiza2g5m8eQshV
@@zenderthedragonJust search for Chris Glass + Angron + Guilliman, but in all honesty, it doesn't hit as great as this version, not even close.
the irony of Angron calling guilliman childish when he is literally killing countless innocents just to spite his father.
Like MLK said “The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of convenience and comfort, but where he stands at times of challenge and controversy," Angron made his choice when he made his personal torment galaxy spanning
Any fool may speak of courage, honor, and glory, but if you want to truly test a person's character give them power and see what they do with it.
Ironic because MLK stood with Israel
@oattyrant2035 A quick fact check reveals that the only piece of evidence that people have for that claim is dubious at best. Like many other black activist organizations, he vocally supported Palestinian emancipation.
@@oattyrant2035good for him if true.
Angron was designed to be the empathic soul of the Imperium in so many ways, his Primarch novel was really telling.
The dude was tortured and betrayed in so many ways, but even at his worst he's got a knack for connecting the emotions of others
If Angron never got the nails, the World Eaters would become Salamanders 2.0.
@@louisnall3102tbh a mix of space wolves and salamanders but yes
Didnt he also have healing powers? Anyway he was such a kind person its sad to see him fall so much
Though, Khorne gave Angron one thing no one ever gave him. Peace. After Angron blew up a planet and unleashed a rage plague. Khorne gifted Angron what the Choas God sees and experiences. For the 8 weeks, 8 days, 8 hours, and 8 seconds. Angron experiences true peace. He felt no rage, no anger, no pain. Khorne did something Big E never did for Angron. Gave him a figurative hug.
Fuck, now I am imagining the image of Khorne hugging Angron, lol. It is cursed, rofl.
@@Qardo He gave a man in hell a drop of water so he could remind him of what he'd never have. Tell me some more about the goodness of khorne.😊
I consider Angron simply berserk.
This is a fabulous chance to see him dismantle Gullimans argument, counter & provide his world view.
Huh, gotta see if he does that more
@anirecapped. Maybe 'dismantle' was a poor choice of word. 'Rebutle' probably would have been better.
I don't particularly like Angron, what I'm saying is I appreciate this moment he's talking with the golden boy of what used to be the Mary sue Legion.
Laying out the disparity between they're realities. It's not fabulous character work, I like that it's the start of what could have been an interesting dynamic.
No lmao. Angron start from angry murder hobo to a full blown murder drone used to show how strong his enemy was.
The worst part was that angron was completely right
The saddest part is that Angron was probably originally meant to be a healer from his Primarch gifts, and now he’s just… this
Guilliman is the kind of guy who’d tell a homeless person to just buy a house.
Angron really hit row boat with “cOAraGE aNd hONoR” lol.
The one ultramarine in the back, “this Mf spittin”
XD
@anirecapped.If by hot garbage you mean the truth, the entire conversation is agron castigating gilomen for acting as though his upbringing makes him better, to be honest, Guiliman shows how little he understands his brother, when he asks if the butcher's nails twisted his loyalty, but anyone with a shred of common Sense could see that agron would have no reason to ever hold loyalty to the imperium, this man was forced to watch the only people he cared about in his entire life die, and his brother's call him insane when he wants to betray and murder the man who made him do that, I would probably be about as pissed as angron if I felt like I was suffering in the dark where no one cared about me, while a pain engine ripped through my skull and destroyed every concept of emotion, so of all the trailers, angron has every reason to go against the emperor, because all the emperor ever did was treat him the exact way the high riders did, so why would he have any reason to believe that the emperor wasn't just another high Rider bastard (in short, angron has a brain that functions less than half as well as his brothers, but his reasoning for betraying the emperor is the most sound, and his reasons for frustration against his brothers are just as sound because he can't understand why they don't see that they're being manipulated, because he can only see any act of kindness that comes from the emperor as manipulation, Since he saw the worst of the man)
@anirecapped. Awww, an ultramarine bootlicker
Absolutely loving their voices man! So much freaking emotion and rage, so many pent up voices getting out, you can really feel it…
Angron has a point, but he forgets, that guiliman had learned a hard lesson as well. Unlike angron, guiliman is able to take responsibility for his mistakes, angron meanwhile saw neither purpose nor love in a legion that was as honorable as he was, before the nails took away their humanity!
Why he must like someone who was created by the man in golden armor who enslaved Angron?
The moment Angron was gonna take ultimate responsibility for his actions was ripped away by the emperor when he teleported him out of that battle, left him a bit pissed lol
@@bowserbrowser6559okay but that never gave him the right to mistreat those in his rank for what the emperor did
@@InnocentThief952so your dad literally kidnaps you from battle to have you chained in a prison while your friends and what could be considered as family get obliterated while he does nothing and then gives you his soldiers how would you not be angry
@@Unregistered.Hypercam.2.See. That is why I like Angron, but as an antagonist, as it makes sense, but he still chooses to be where he is, and he can only blame himself for that. I like Angron as a character, but he is no arbiter of righteous morals.
One had the best upbringing and took full advantage of it, becoming a shining leader, the other had everything against him from start to finish and never gave up fighting, overall an exelent example of the conflict of two respectable characters.
Except for the most part, he did give up.
Robot man responds to his remarks by saying he is still a slave which is true for all that talk of courage? He never accomplished anything with it, it never got him anywhere.
Also Angron is a bully, it is insane for him to speak of courage with how he treated everyone else.
(The world eaters who had the courage to stand up against him and call him out for his barbarism were slaughtered by him with no shred of respect or thought)
@@draketurtle4169 Good point but you have to consider that all of this is after he got kidnapped by the emperor, after this he was basically searching for a way to die, and after all the people you ever cared for are dead what reason do you have to be nice? And remember that he was still dying, in constant pain and without his primarch powers. He gave up but becouse he was dead inside by that point.
@@TheWoodsman308 I mean his own legion nearly killed him ot at least from their perspective thought they might have when using their warp powers to try and calm him.
@@draketurtle4169 But if you think about it Angron wasn't even himself by that point. I'm not justifing what he did, but he was the only primarch with no powers and that may have to do with his brain being cut to ribbons and put together, wich may have also taken that feeling of respect the astartes have for their primarch (but in the situation you are describing they had VERY good reasons). Overall I love the world eaters becouse they are the only legion wich we don't know the full potential, they didn't get a fully powered primarch and we aren't even sure their role (shock assault specialists) was theirs to begin with. I think that the return of a SANE Angron would be a MASSIVE impact on the story, just becouse he would probably wish to redeem himself or his sons memory for what he made them do in his insanity.
@@draketurtle4169Angron doesn't say away from what he is now, but pay attention, cause guilliman and the others I the grand scale of things are no better. They follow the emperor and are all too cowardly to stand against HIS barbarism and brutality
I will remind that everything that happened to angron was the eldars fault
Hold on, big E could have removed the nails any time with some artifacts from the DAOT he just didn't feel like it
@efestohorus2053 but before all that when baby angron landed on the planet the eldar attempted to kill him and it was why he was to weak to fend off the slavers so had they not he would have been able to probably conquer the planet
@@zombiethezerker I know but that dosen't excuse big E's treatment of Angron
The Eldars? As a whole?
@Briselance well we don't know who did it so I can blame the whole gotta pull the old teacher method
So few seem to understand that Angron is the most tragic as he never even got a chance to ever choose.
Not when the eldar attacked him as an infant after crashing landing when he was baseball pitched by Khorne at the planet.
Not when he was forced to be a child gladiator.
Not when he was told to kill his adoptive father, and when he tried to refuse, he was lobotomized, and the nails forced into his brain, loosing his primarch ability and forever plaguing him with unbearable pain that erases your emotions besides rage, THEN forced to kill his dad.
Not when he tried to save all of his slave family.
Not when he wanted to die with them.
Not when the emperor enslaved him to be another dog, and then knocking Angron out flat when he refused.
Not in the orginal canon where his space marines decided to implant the nails in themselves to be closer to him, which he hated (retconned in a later book where once he saw the first successful ones, out of spite told them to continue be implanted in everyone, though most of them wanted them anyway)
Not when Lorgar forcibly cast a ritual on Angron while he was finally going to die from the nails and be released from his existence, only to have a leash forced on him by his brother and given to Khorne, who thought itd be funny to keep the nails in demon Angron.
He felt like his one choice was betraying the emperor, thus siding with horus who he hated too, but less than the emperor. And even that too was most likely by Chaos and the Emperor's own design, with how he had already claimed Angron as failed tool right from the get, and the Emperor seemingly always knew half of his sons would betray him.
Tl;dr Angron never had a chance to choose; not his feelings, not his circumstance, not his future, not even his sins. Not even his death.
Bro this is so fucking sad. Well done
I love this speech so much, I actually did it for my public speaking class, went well
You can play the victim card as much as you want Angron, at the end of the day, you became the monster, and that's all that matter.
Angron is the most emphatic Primarch; he instinctively knows how human emotions work. Even a pure Grey Knight like Teloman couldn't resist the persuasion of anger and hate inflicted by Angron himself
In the novel Angron the Red angel from David Guymer.
I have a feeling that for the Primarch Project, Angron was originally designed to be a defensive strategist who would protect newly-conquered worlds. A leader who cared for his soldiers and prisoners alike.
But the Warp twisted this fate, and made him the most violent and brutal of the Primarchs.
Was that book good?
I still hold grudge against Guymer to what he done with Gotrek and Felix, so curious if he improved
@Keram-io8hv, yes, he improved in this one, particularly in representing who Angron is and making him more complex than just a raging dumb barbarian. He delved into how Angron caused suffering among his sons, leading them to fall to chaos. There's a side story about a chaos marine that I didn't love, but the book itself is very funny and epic to read."
the fact that he was supposed to be a healer when you look to his power is even sader
The Emperor's handling of Angron showed us that despite all his wisdom and power, at his core he's still a fallible human like the rest of us.
I like how in the last few years, a bunch of writers looked at Angron and went "Hey, what if instead of being a joke, Angron had the kind of insights ONLY someone from his situation would?"
And the results are astonishing and brutal.
Ppl always ommit the rebuttal of guillliman. "You are still a slave Angron a slave of your past" *mic dtop*
Honestly Angrons dialogue with Gulliman and Russ in Betrayer is amazing he destroys both of them simply by telling the truth of the matter!
I like how crunchy angron’s voice is 😭
Guilliman: ...ok, maybe you make some valid points...
Guilliman talks down to the traitor primarchs, but forgets he was brought up in high class nobility in a paradise world with people who loved him. Meanwhile, Angron was a tortured slave, Konrad’s first memories are being burned alive and scrabbling through the dark, Mortarion was puppeteered his whole life, Magnus saw his entire culture condemned as heretical, and Lorgar saw his father destroy his world while hypocritically claiming to not be a god. The Emperor brought about his own ruin but Guilliman was to privileged to see it
How easy it is to judge others on high, far above the mud and muck those below try desperately to crawl and claw their way out of.
Never thought id agree with angron but he has a point
@anirecapped. k
Loved betrayer! Gave us a glimpse of why guilliman's ultramar was so effective, gave angron some much needed character development and I got to hear Erebus getting the shit kicked out of him by kharn!
Bro had a moment of clarity and used it to humble an entire legion
I mean it’s not like Guliman had any choice on where he was gonna land
@@Kingedwardiii2003 yeah but that’s not why Angron was mad at him Angron was mad at him because he had the nerve to call the reason that he betrayed the imperial childish
It was childish ...wah daddy saved me
@@ThorGiske that’s not the reason he betrayed the emperor and that is also not the reason he’s mad at the emperor all the emperor had to do was to either a send the custodians to help Angron or b help Angron himself He did neither of those things and teleported him away, leaving his allies to die and forever brand him a coward on that planet and then basically said fuck your feelings here’s a lesion of super soldiers that I want you to command and do as you’re fucking told
@@Fallout4277.. Didn't he fall because his soul was straight up sold? Angron for all intend and purposes didn't really fall on his own if I recall right
The tragedy of brothers, fighting in brutal bloodshed over unshakeable values, of which they are both correct, and both, for the wrong reasons.
Guilliman’s answer was even better:
“You’re still a slave, Angron. Enslaved by your past, blind to the future. Too hateful to learn. Too spiteful to prosper.”
G man wasn’t holding back lol
Bro angron would have been so smart and wise if he didnt get done so bad in childhood
If the Eldar didn't try to kill him, everything would've been fine. Only their failed assassination attempt made all of Angron's tragedy possible in the first place.
Except that Angron was already a failure before that and he let's his anger control him. And before anyone says he can't help it, Sangunius has a greater anger and he keeps it under wraps
Let's see how well they can keep that anger with the nails on them
Angron is truthful and righteous in his Hatred and resentment.
Except there is little truth to what he said and he is ultimately a massive hypocrite (very similar to mortarion).
He talks about courage yet uses his gifts to trod and oppress anything weaker than him.
And funnily enough for someone who preaches courage, freedom and overcoming those that restrict you… he not only once but twice made the choice to be a slave to a new master.
He never stopped being a slave.
As the emperor sacrifices a million souls a day.
@@draketurtle4169
@@draketurtle4169bruh just take the L the copium is crazy
@@Warsm1th12 the only one coping is you.
@@draketurtle4169 nah bro I listened to both sides and I see who is correct here and who isn’t. You’re just coping for Smurf Daddy. This is ONE L in several lifetimes of wins, just grow up and take it
First.
Also, cool speech against tyranny there angron, i hope you don't wind up the slave of a tyrannical entity, that would be sad.
Damn right. Sadly we will never know what happened to him in the end, never know...
Atleast Khorne never lies to you
I'm pretty sure that's even more reason why he's Raging all the time. Because all he wants to do is die and let this hell be over, but Khorne won't let him.
@@504godzilla
Neither did the Emperor, but then again he didn't need to lie to Angron.
The emperor said "Be my attack dog." and Angron did as he was told, even if begrudgingly.
Bro was out of options 😂 he traded one tyrant for another and at least the new one doesn’t lie to him I guess
To me, Angron is simply the epitome of tragedy.
He was born to be a healer, a machine made for compassion and love, and yet he was turned into a monster knowing only rage. He never wanted this. He never wanted to be a villain as a child. He didn’t want the nails. He was nurtured into being a beast, but he was born to be a hero amongst heroes.
Wroth low, he is an animal now. But upon high he would have been an angel next to his brother bearing wings of honor instead of feather.
Tragedy made manifest.
And after He was turned into a Daemon Prince, He can not longer talk but growl, snarl, scream, and roar like a maddened blood-spilling, carnage craving Beast.
@@Wolfrage76 He believed that Chaos would grant him freedom. Instead it simply placed him on another leash.
He wasn't born to be a healer btw 😊
No mercy for angron, angron the oathbreaker, angron the betrayer.
Despite he cries the Ultramarines to have false honor, and being meer subjects to a tyrant. For someone who think honor is having to resist a tyrant, he'd sure subjected himself to the worst tyrant you could ever imagine serving under..
To be fair, he just wanted to die. He never wanted to ascend to daemon Prince hood, he just got forced by Logar
Angron then goes on to be a man of like 2 words with a career of being khorne's punching bag and his chapters effectively used as a stereotype for a shit person to play with/against.
Guilliman did have the superpower of being raised by a mother and father, it's true.
I still think no matter where guilliman landed he'd have been great and stayed a loyalist
Angron punches with words confirmed, I love it
Angron was trying to save his people and big e ripped him away from that war. Causing his followers to be slaughtered to the man as the cried for their champion to rescue them. Fully aware of his followers death's and the cost of his removal the guilt and grief are what he brought into the imperium with
Angron intended to lead his troops into a suicide charge. He wanted to die on his planet. He could have offered his loyalty in exchange for the Emperor saving his people and punishing those that kept him in chains but he didn’t. Granted, The Emperor never offered that either. Hell he could have just had his troops run ahead of Angron and his gladiators and bring the planet into compliance by force before he could even have the opportunity to fight.
Worst yet is that the Nucerian slaver lords branded him a coward who abandoned his people when the fight turned, which understandably made him even more bitter
Angron can justify as much as he likes. His actions lead to no right and no improvement. Just to a deeper hole of more of what he complains so much
This is extremely misleading, because Guilliman immediately berates Angron back for his wallowing and refusal to accept any blame for his actions: ‘You’re still a slave, Angron. Enslaved by your past, blind to the future. Too hateful to learn. Too spiteful to prosper.’
When someone asks "why don't you just get a better paying job?":
Angron is literally the only known primarch to have failed to conquer or rule his world. Rowboat is right in this case he's a whiny child
Angron would have a point if he wasn't literally serving Hell
Angron is literally the future portrayel of nature versus nurture
I'm a fan of Guilliman but I cant deny Angron is incredibly close to being right here.
Not really. Angron's argument hinges on the idea that you cannot be Courageous or Honorable if you grew up in a decent envrionment which is nonsense.
Guilliman was 'privileged' yes, but he took all those advantages and used them to make his world(s) better.
@@sarethuskami5082 you speak as if Angron ever had a chance. Angron was never given an opportunity to choose his feelings, his circumstances, not his future, And not even his death.
- the Eldar attacked him as an infant.
- he was forced to be a child gladiator.
- when he was told to kill his adoptive father, and when he tried to refuse, he was lobotomized, and the nails forced into his brain, losing his primarch ability and forever plaguing him with unbearable pain that erases your emotions besides rage, then forced to kill his dad.
- when he tried to save all of his slave family. the nails prevent him from being tactical.
- when he wanted to die with his family the emperor took him.
- the emperor, his father, enslaved him to be another dog, and then knocked Angron out flat when he refused.
Angron is perhaps the most tragic. Each Primarch was designed to THE BEST at something. Roboute was the best at civil adminstration, Magnus was best with Psyker powers, Dorn was best with building fortifications, Perturabo was best at ATTACKING fortifications, and so on. Angron was designed to be the best at Military Strategy, yet the nails rendered him barely better than an animal.
If I had an interdimensional time machine, I'd save Angron.
I'm wondering if there will ever be a chance to perfectly clone Angron, like GW did with Fulgrim.
There is a theory that I love and personally ascribe to: had Angron not suffered the Butcher's nails, he would've prevented the Heresy... or at the very least, delayed it to a more optimum time for the Emperor and Malchidor's plans.
"DOES MACRAGGE PEACEKEEPKERS CHARGE YOU FOR SPEEDING? CUZ I'M SHOT WHEN I DO IT!"
Bro called Bobby G a white boi.
The thing I love about the traitor Primarchs is that most of them truly think they are doing the right thing and aren't just cartoonishly evil without any true motivation
Except lorgar , when he talked with Magnus about lifting the veil of reality and the warp by torturing and making suffer the ultramar sector he had no valuable reason beyond just doing evil for the sake of it
Mortarian, Curze, Fulgrim, Perturabo. Just off the top of my head they had TERRIBLE reasons for turning traitor
@@Unregistered.Hypercam.2. That's why I said "most," we don't stan Lorgar in this house 😤
@@dontaejones7419 Im playing Devils advocate here but, Wasn't Logar emotionally abused by Kor and Erabus while growing up? And both of them working together to make Logar go over the edge and become a traitor?
I don't like Logar ether but...
@garrisonmoncher5461 erebus killed Logars favorite son argel tal.
Tbh, Angron was kinda right... But at the same time, he joined Chaos, so even if he was right, he became slave once again.
I feel like the fact that he’s now an insane daemon prince really undermines his argument
This makes Angron come across as worse, not better. He’s cognizant enough to make this argument, that means he definitely realizes he’s a mass murderer of innocent humans on a scale that none of his other brothers could match pre-corruption of Horus.
They all are...
Cant deny he had such a tragic start. But he rose to be a primarch . To have what he didnt. He bitches alot here. And it looks like hes having a childish tantrum and justifying his fall to chaos. Primarchs rise against adversity . Angron just a failure
I feel bad for Angron, but he's coming up with excuses. Guilliman was raised with a silver spoon in his mouth, but he didn't rest on his laurels. Look at what he turned his opportunity into! And the Imperium is so much stronger for it!
Angron dropped some serious bombs in this conversation 💣 💣💣
Sad thing is that neither of them are wrong
Te ardes mucho Angrooon 😎
-Guillichad
Love the voice they gave angron
He... kinda makes a point, tho
Angron and Magnus are the only Primarchs that had a point at all for what they did
Angron is the best primarch. Hands down
I just realized ultramarines are what closest there is to loyalist Emperor's Children.
OFCOURSE Angron detests them.
Elaborate please
@@efestohorus2053He's making a comparison, with a shoutout to the Dornian Heresy.
Ultramarines have perfectionist traits, like the Emperor's Children.
@@efestohorus2053 blueberry shoulderpad much gold
I understand why Angron is angry.
But while being abused can explain why you are an abuser; it does not excuse it.
What about the super angry nails in his brain that the Big E couldn’t remove??
@@kinguchiha6212You mean the same super angry nails that he forced his sons to have implanted?
@@N0TYALC yea I will admit that was a massive dick move
@@kinguchiha6212 I always read that as an unconscious plea to have someone come and kill him. "I'm committing these crimes against your warriors, I'm disobeying these orders, I'm going MIA all the time, I'm genociding entire planets for no reason, WHY WON'T YOU KILL ME?? WHAT WILL IT TAKE TO GET YOU TO KILL ME?? I'm going to just keep on committing these crimes until someone comes and kills me, PLEASE DO IT SOON!"
Like a "suicide by cop" that happens far too frequently, where the person wants to die but can't pull the trigger themselves, they try to get someone else to kill them, Angron couldn't simply take a Thunderhawk and pilot it into a sun, he had to have someone else kill him. (though that could be one hell of a Grim-Dark story, having a World Eater watch as Angron takes a Thunderhawk and tries again, and again, and again, to fly into a sun, only to have SOMETHING come up to make him turn away at the last minute, and come to the realization that there's something programmed into him that won't let him commit suicide - he has to be killed by someone else. What's it going to take to get someone else to finally kill him...?)
@@N0TYALC Except he didn’t force them. The World Eaters chose to implant the nails to be more like their gene father and to suffer like he suffers. He didn’t necessarily try to stop em tho nor did he particularly care what they did in general. Hell I’d be surprised if he even bothered to learn their names
Learning about Angron convinced me to be a chaos boy
you mean autistic
Gulliman ended up winning the verbal bashing. Angrom still is a slave to his anger.
Angron is the one that speaks the most truth in his moments of lucidity
Guilliman's Reply was far Better LMAO
Bottom line, all of the emperor's son payed for the mistakes of their father's poor judgment.
THIS.
I would say Guilliman benefited. He already had his own empire and he had a good enough head on his shoulders.
@@shadowshandbroWhat are you going 'THIS' at? You've constantly said that it was Angron's fault for becoming a slave to chaos. You said that he became a slave to Khorne because, and I quote, "he couldn't rise above his failures." Hell one of the delusional people that agree with you said he begged Sanguineous not to kill him but he shouted "No!" Because Lorgar, the bitch, turned him into a deamon Primarch, making him effectively immortal, when all he wanted was death.
Furthermore, the Imperium took EVERYTHING from him. He hated his legion because it represented what took everything from him. He never got help from the Imperium, he never got anything he wanted from the Imperium. he never got peace from Imperium. But after all that Khorne gave Angron what no one had bothered to try and give him. Khorne gave Angron peace. For 8 weeks, 8 days, 8 hours, and 8 seconds. Angron was forced into a choice that was made for him as soon as he was 'saved' by the Emperor.
You are why I hate the cult-like state of the Imperium. You are blind yet you call the others, that can see clearly the truth, what you truly are.
You shall get no further response from me blindman.
@@d.n5287 i wouldn't say that now considering the state overall in the galaxy
Lion El'Jonson landed in jungles infested with chaos beasts, vanquished them all, and didn't bitch about it. Angron failed to kill the slavers, conquer the planet, and never stopped whining.
That is why the Lion is my favorite. He legitimately knew of so many hardships and yet came out on top.
the Emperor robbed him of that,. you know nothing.
I always feel Angron is a bit blind complaining about how he had to rise up when Corvus did just that and he turned out fine.
The difference was made by who found them.
he just called Guilliman a Spoiled Rich Kid