@@SuccubiPie I think all of our fate is to have Yoshi-P drop another Dalmund on us one day anyways. He's just going to wake up one day, and be like "enough".
Woolie really is a man after my own heart. I could play the same character in a game for *years* and never get bored. I'd rather be known as good at that character than good at the game in general.
I've mained Ike since he showed up. I've been doing some forays into Ridley and Roy, but I keep gravitating back to him. He's just the kind of character I like: Strong hits, not tremendously heavy while still being meaty, versatile moveset.
There's always that reverse gut feeling when you pick someone and find out that they're a top tier nightmare who apparently demolishes at high level, and people start calling you a tier scrub and such I think if you stay loyal for all the balance patches you can prove them wrong, but the ultimate truth in fighting games is simply that play who you want. Even if you like a low tier, if you aren't having FUN playing them then dont play them
This is absolutely my problem in Smash. I generally only play with friends, so that feeling is way stronger. I liked ROB in 4, but then felt the need to switch when I found out he was high tier. Same with Metaknight in Brawl, Little Mac in 4, and probably a few more that I'm forgetting at the moment. It's that feeling of "Am I actually good, or am I being carried by the character?" In Ultimate, I played Inkling a few times, then resolved to never touch it again, cause I could feel the busted right away once I figured out ink management. So, now I've been spending time with Incineroar, Jigglypuff, Snake, Ridley, and, ironically, Bayo, and my W/L has gotten a lot more evened out, which makes me feel way better.
Yeah that is a kind of sucky situation that can occur too. Best thing I can imagine to do is just stick to your guns, and if the character's nerfed...try not to switch off of them *too* fast. lol
@@Kiyosuki If you switch off a high tier when they're nerfed, then you weren't really playing them for fun, just for the ability to win easily. At least that's what that tells me.
@@SunsetSullivan Yeah exactly. It's like, it doesn't help one's case even if they insist they just innocently wanted to play that character for loyalty. It's like confirming naysayers. Situation probably doubly sucks though if said character gets nerfed so bad they're not even viable anymore. Then again though, the kinds of people who get hung up on competitors picking top tiers in a competition shouldn't be indulged in so much either.
@@blaacksugar7714 Exactly. Dirty casual here, not enough time or skill to git gud. In the games I do play, I stick with the characters I really like instead of the ones I can win with.
Amen, brother! Not only did he win Tekken World Tour with panda, he won it by beating Qudans, a living legend who had recently made his comeback. That's like one of the lepers beating up post-ressurection Jezus!
Joker is definitely one of the best characters in Smash Ultimate, but he's definitely NOT the next Smash 4 Bayo or Brawl Meta Knight. Too many people aren't giving MK Leo the credit he deserves. He was the best player there.
I definitely agree. People were saying Ike was "too good" back when MKLeo was playing him. One thing that's never not irked me a bit over the years is when a player like Leo isn't acknowledged for their own input. That it *has* to be the character, even though Jokers that weren't MKLeo got absolutely blown up this evo generally. Leo made it but it was *not* a good time for Joker mains overall. When people give too much attention to the characters and not the players using them, especially when it's completely unwarranted (ie: results are just not suggesting a top players' pick is breaking the meta like knee jerk reactions would suggest.) I just hate that, it's so scrubby.
Absolutely. Nobody comes back from being down 2 games on loser's side in Grand Finals at the biggest tournaments in the world TWICE without being clearly the best player in the room. The mental toughness is staggering
My problem with the "Pick a Top Teir" mentality is that I find it super depressing. "Here's a game with [X] number of characters.... only three of them are worth playing, all those other ones are literal wastes of space on the disk. They shouldn't even have been put in the game, they're literally worthless." Or at least that's how it feels to me. Maybe this isn't why I'm not super seriously into fighting games. Even when playing a top teir character, if there's a character I like more, then I'm not having as much fun as I could be.
Exactly my problem. It's just like that in Pokémon, too--whole *types* of Pokémon are useless because of how abundant Rock-types are in the Meta. So there are Pokémon who are great, have wonderful movepools or stats, or are otherwise *awesome*... but because Meta-trainers are incapable of playing without "optimal" Stealth Rock/Sandstorm strats, these Pokémon are lucky to see the Under-Used tier. I'm lucky Scizor is one of my faves, but it was useless for a long time; before it gained the Technician/Bullet Punch combo, Scizor was a *liability* because of its 4x weakness to Fire. But then the one-two punch of the Technician/BP combo and the abundance of Stealth Rock made Scizor Over-Used overnight. And then Pokémon players have the gall to complain when Game Freak announces they won't have the whole Pokédex in Sw/Sh.
SO how much longer till you start linking the Twitch channel into the video like you do the sound cloud stuff? I still can't take how you miss such an obvious plug after all this time.
For the same reason they don't just host the podcast here, I bet. It hurts the audio version, and hurts the channel by TH-cam's algorithm not recommending Woolie's stuff more since it's hours of content that people might not make it all the way through and not come back to.
@@johnbuscher I don't get the last one at all, im not saying post the whole vod im saying link to the twitch account along with the others. It may hurt the audio version yes but thats only if someone chooses to watch the live/vod on twitch which you have to be a paid subscriber for, so that would mean more revenue. Hes got the free version links but not the "Premium version"ish visual one.
Man. This conversation make me appreciate Pepeday so much. ElFuerte was my guy in SFIV, no matter how much I lost. Watching him style on people around the time ultra finally came out gave me life.
Didn't you guys advise a while ago to pick a top tier and a low tier, in case a future patch either nerfs/buffs your favourite of the two? The Character Select Option Select
Wanna know what's funny? Darli isn't low tier. She's about Mid (low mid, high mid? Not sure). But there are characters worse than her. The High/Top Tier in SamSho are just that much more oppressive right now.
I definitely don't think she's a low tier, she feels more mid to me. Depending on where SamSho goes from here, whats nerfed/buffed, and how things shift in general overall I kind of feel like she could go either way in future.
Woolie is so much more likeable when he is not afraid to show he that he actually personally cares about something , in this case the character he likes to play as. Instead of acting all "im too kill boss for this shit , its all chemicals anyway".
I think something that player drastically overlook when discussing Tiers is their own abilities. I can play low tier characters and still win why? Because not everyone who plays High Tier characters play at the highest level. So before you switch characters really ask yourself "Is there any way I can improve further before trying to change?"
I can very much sympathize with Woolie's "aesthetic design first" philosophy (I had a bad time in Xenogears for similar reasons), but there's a funny thing about it that I had noticed back in the Fisticuffs days - it was the thing that kept attracting him to boss characters. Spiky, luridly-colored characters with menacingly wild stances were a really popular design for bosses and secret super-fighters for a long time.
As someone who's been playing Morrigan since Vampire Hunter, every single day Sandford Kelly is in my head, saying the same thing. Just-just pick a top tier. B-but I like Morrigan... PICK A TOP TIER.
I resonate with Woolie. I love playing particulars that catch my eye no matter what Tier. Cervantes from SoulCalibur! Ghost pirate with dual weapons and one of them is a pistol? A mystic black buy with a fucking SYTHE (Scythe?). A wrestler with an animal mask that has CHAIN throws for days. Dude. Winning is cool and great but winning with a character I love is EVEN BETTER THAN THAT!
Great explanation about all of this. While I am glad "Just pick a top tier" is a meme that's survived all these years, part of what still makes it remain funny to me is how much it attempts to simplify what's actually a really nuanced situation. I mean, yeah you want to give yourself the best chance possible to win in a tournament environment....but how many majors occur where a good 70% of the pools are all people taking that mentality at face value only to get washed out despite their top tier character being supposed to give them their "best chance"? There's so many factors in play here, the nature of the game itself (which is the most important, I think some games are more beholden to their tier lists than others and vise versa. Like Tekken 7 for instance, while having tiers, has shown that the nature of the game itself and how its played has made it a lot more possible for less popular or superficially "strong" characters to win.), matchups overall, and imo how familiar people become overtime to a character. That last one I think is actually a very understated but important factor. If you see the same character, no matter how strong, all the time your experience versus that character is just going to be that much greater. That's why I think a lot of fighting game metas have a habit of having a character who's exceedingly simple but very strong tend to dominate the meta early on, but fall off more and more as time goes on because their simplicity ends up becoming a bit of a drawback in a way since no one's surprised by what that character can do anymore (unless said character is like, a Meta Knight or something, and just freakishly strong for the limited input given but then that's on the devs.) I can see Genjuro going down that way tbh. He's really strong now, but even at this stage among the 3 Genjuros that made it only Infiltration didn't seem to get outright read. They'll probably nerf him a bit too.I like to think fighter metas build *around* the top tier characters...and that in itself can end up changing what characters are top tier or just *how* top tier they are. And yeah, it is fun to win...but like Woolie said, if you can be "that guy" that stands out in top 8 amongst a bunch of power hungry tier huggers, that's almost as coveted an FGC dream in itself. It's what makes the scene so unique.
I feel Woolie's plight on a deeply personal level. I'll play Pokemon Trainer for how interesting it is to swap between 3 characters. I'll play Lucina for a change of pace. I'll play Falcon for hype. But I play Greninja for fun, because I love the character. I put hundreds of hours into this one character because I'd rather be the hype Greninja player than Wolf #2,500,000. I'd rather play this unique, underrated, super fun character that I really enjoy both as a fighter and a Pokemon than any character that's strictly easier and better. And y'know, I'll never be on that stage. I'll never be competing for Smash Ultimate EVO finals or even any small tournament. So this is the way for me to go, and I think many more people would have more fun if they realized that playing the character you love and learning how to play those tough matchups is more fun and rewarding than just picking the top tier and coasting. That said, anyone playing a top tier in any fighting game has my respect, and I love watching high level tournament play with those characters. No hate, you do you.
I don't think games should be perfectly balanced either, but characters shouldn't have to be useless either. I main Yashamaru in Samsho, and while he does have some strengths that will help you win matches, he has moves that are literally useless. Using J214x is a death sentence, on block or hit, and the hitboxes on it are whack. I learned in a couple of hours of gameplay that using it in general is pointless. Just make characters good, while still having your OP assholes.
The fact that more people are realizing this faster about how fighting games work really makes you think about how educational SamSho is for people looking to #GetIntoFightingGames
Considering Rangchu annihilated TWT with what many considered a bottom tier character. If the game balance is good enough, at some point, you just gotta stop blaming the character and put the time in.
Yeah and that was sick. But the largest chunk of the player base is playing Genjuro and I’m sick of seeing his fucking face. Every time I fight him, I’m not playing the game. I’m just reacting to his tools and punishing. That’s not fun. That’s disrespecting his neutral because I have zero respect for him. And if I don’t react or block, I’m fucked. That’s not fun. The problem with Samsho isn’t that some people are just too op that it’s a get gud scrub problem, it’s some people are just too good so I no longer get to play the neutral with actual footsies and just stuck reacting to someone pushing buttons. Only some characters can meet each other in the middle like that when it should be more.
@@SorryIBlackedOut but that's a perfect initial scenario. Now he's the top tier villian that everyone hates. Every he needs a character like that at some point
Bleack I’d agree... if he was fun to fight. Games like this have similar scenarios where some characters are tremendously better, but balanced. Sagat and Akuma (not vanilla Sagat tho), the 6 characters who dominate MVC2, Vergil in MVC3 etc. Genjuro isn’t any of that. He’s fucking Jack 7. No one likes watching Jack 7.
@@pw5975 i feel like the intent of his statement there was not to say that the game is intentional unbalanced so that certain characters are just in-arguably better, but that the game's "balancing" prevents perfect 50/50. The worst thing you can have in a fighting game after in terms of character kits is symmetry
Personally, if your gonna pick a top tier be honest about it, don't sit there and say "Oh man, this character is so cool, and I love their design," only for the next patch to completely nerf 'em and you go to the newest easy money character. I laughed my ass off when this happened to Gord in BBTag, "Oh, I'm not like those other guys, I'm loyal." One week later playing Yuzu/Mitsu/Merk. There's no shame in playing something if your gonna make money off it, there is shame in lying though. For me, I play the characters that look interesting and fit my play style, and since the meta is centered around a few characters I always have a couple of obscure characters in my pocket, that rarely seen so that I might be able get a surprise factor in. I also find it funny cause a lot of times there are really good characters that require a little bit of effort but are nigh unstoppable when played right, going back to Tag: Rachel, Aigis, and Mika, (don't shun me but I've seen some amazing Makoto's that wreck the top tiers). All that being said, I find it annoying as shit when some characters have clear advantages over others and the person playing them is smug about.
These are pretty much my exact feelings when it comes to people playing fighters competitively. I play DBFZ competitively (though I'm currently on break due to burn out) and one player that had GT Goku on his team shortly after the DLC came out for some reason would try to make justifcations for him not qualifying as a top tier even though the character straight up breaks some established rules and has a lot of "privileges" other characters don't have. We already know pro players aren't usually loyal to characters, there's no reason to defend your choice when it's obvious that choice will get results. For me personally, I just play characters that are comfy. Whether good or not, I'll know what I like once I try them out for half an hour. Plus when you play a 3 character fighter you can balance out your team so I get the best of both worlds of primarily playing my favorites while having my "tier whore" picks.
@@TeamHedge I often notice that games with simplified mechanics have a higher reliance on tier rankings. In Guilty Gear or BlazBlue CF, you have many tools and mechanics that if used right can easily make up any disadvantage a lower tier character has. SFV for one is notorious for lowering the skill ceiling and then like clockwork the seasonal tier lists became a big deal and character loyalty was nonexistent. That's something that I noticed anyways (the same shit happens a lot in BBTag, and the never dying Bardock) and if I'm right then I got a whole lot of fear for whats about to happen to the next Guilty Gear.
"Play Super Smash Bros. Like nobody is watching, Love your mains like they'll never be nerfed, Spam like you're fighting a CPU, and live like its an Omega Stage on For Glory." -William W. Purkey, probably
7:45 I kind of agree with that mentality where maybe leave some shit unbalanced because it makes seeing those off meta character popping off against them that much more exciting to see however rare that happens.
I really don't agree with designing a game to intentionally have strength discrepancies... variety > balance, but designing for strength imbalance doesn't make variety, they have to be viable options.
If I ever get involved with the production of a fighting game, I want to make a character who woolie would enjoy playing, and would excel with... On the condition it's a design he abhores. Because I enjoy juxtaposition
I think there was a boxer character in some game a while back that had that effect on him. "I hate his ridiculous hair. I hate his stupid gloves. He will be my main."
When I played SF 5 I 1st picked Ryu since he's roughly the same and I know what to expect. But I picked up Dictator since I always liked his psycho power gimmick and hitting people with crouching middle punch. I felt so proud when Problem X won EVO.
Guess what?? Tier lists also work the opposite way. Winning MVC2 with Storm, Sentinel, and Magneto: "Good for him" Winning MVC2 Servbot, Amingo, and Venom: "WHAT THE FUCKING FUCK!!!??? WHA-!? BUH-!? I gotta check this guy out." MAX=Generally on the right side of the issue
25:02 We had a thing like this in League of Legends that didn't turn out as great. I mained this character named Aatrox (elegant big sword demon, kinda emo) for close to two years. During this time, the community was just fucking RAILING on Aatrox. "Who even plays this character?" "You picked HIM? You're fucking trolling." "Fuck you for picking that character, I'm afk." During this time, he received almost no balance changes and I remained loyal to him. And I got good. I climbed the highest I ever got in the rankings. But community perception of the character was so overwhelmingly (uninformedly) negative that he was slated for a rework. And in his last months of existence, he finally started seeing play at the highest professional level. People started flocking to him. People were excited about him. And Riot Games got rid of him anyways. Now, he's some thing I can't even play with voices on because he pisses me off too much. As much as it is nice to be good at the thing everyone says is "bad", community perception DOES matter these days.
Honestly, after seeing PurePure bring a Labrys to Persona 4 Ultimax's EVO Top 8 some years back. I think "Just pick a Top Tier" is bullcrap. If you wanna win, just git gud.
Pick whatever is the most fun for you. I personally have more fun playing somebody like Darli than I would playing Genjuro. It's not because I enjoy the challenge of playing a low tier or am too prideful to play a high tier. I just really fucking like Darli.
Whenever I see Pat it's like he slowly morphing into whatever he is sitting in, I swear one day Paige is gonna come home from McDonald's and find Pat missing with nothing but a small indent in the couch from where he used to be.
Overpowered characters are rarely fun, wining because the thing you picked is so much better does nothing but devalue both players effort and player decisions. In the worst cases, I would argue that you are playing less of the game as alot of the challenge is negated.
Man i feel bad for the peeps who genuinely love their fighter (design was and what not) but get called an asshole cause said fighter happens to be top tier ex: me and my boy Jin
I'm lucky because the characters I always pick first have been really consistently good. I just choose the coolest character but end up getting the top tier. I play genjiro in samsho because the Japanese door cutting is cool and I chose adult gohan because I like his hair style.
Damn speak of the devil that balance patch that just dropped was massive. Genjuro just got hit with quite the nerf bat. Increased recovery on his SRK, only HS SRK has invincibility (same with all SRKs now.), second hit of his kick is no longer an overhead, crouching MS reduced range, his grab got massively reduced range. Meanwhile Darli got buffs across the board. Faster walkspeed, first hit of standing MS can now be cancelled into specials, surf moves all buffed, all HS' buffed all around to name a few things. Woolie and all Darli users'll probably be just fine. And that's not even getting into how many other changes happened for other characters. Shiki got like, *omega* buffed. It's quite the patch.
I normally just pick which ever character I like most. Sometimes I get lucky and get gud with ken from third strike, then sometimes I get stuck with season 2 fulgore 😑. (Cant remember if it was season 2 or 3 they gave home the charge function) but I hey I stick with him and have fun. It's nice beating top tier characters with trash from time to time
^ Only one "Main" is for people who just won't put the **time** in! As a much longer term MMORPG player than Mr. Fuccboivan, I can say 100% that is the ONLY approach that will enable you to consistently No-Life any super grindy Game that also has raid style Skill-checks for **years** at a time without completely burning out. ...no Vacations or cheating on it like Pat does either, we're talking 6-8 hours a day... Split personality masochism!
lol chris g didn't invent that morrigan missle bull shit he stole that from someone else. he got called out for it a long time ago but to his credit he did the best w/ it out of anyone else.
Poor Woolie being a Kotal Stan who really has to stare at his half-dead hero face down on the ground with his bruised sunburnt ass out, weakly waving a worn and torn flag cheering softly. May Liu Kang's new universe give the green man some dignity back.
This reminds me of how my first main in SFIV was Dan and i was endlessly tormented by my friends for it lol. Still clapped their cheeks sometimes with him tho. I was way more satisfied saying I could beat their Evil Ryu with Dan than I was playing high tier dudes.
You could always play Darli casually and Genjuro for serious games. Playing other characters casually can help put your serious main into perspective. There's nothing wrong with sticking with Darli though.
I main Groh in Soul Cal and feel Woolie there he does have to work a little harder to get wins compared to some of his counterparts but I enjoy playing as him way to much to drop him
Winning is the best, but beating someone with a mediocre or bad character is delicious. Say in Street Fighter and you main Dan Hibiki and are so good you beat decent players with them using one of the top characters is hilarious.
The whole reason why I play Shai on bdo Being a little loli healer that people underestimate and just charge at is soooo rewarding when they don’t even think that a shai can do anything I keep ruining people’s day by killing them as a boomerang child that they though was nothing It’s great
"I get to be Vergil, and you get you get to be who Vergil is beating on..." Truest line Pat ever said lol
"I'm tired of working for the money, I want the money to work for me."
Thts how successful people seem to do it
I wouldn't quote someone who broke his stick
@@moopersworthninjason42nd81 everything in that video is worthy of quoting
@@arbyw.1889 the "money" made him get a new stick lmao
th-cam.com/video/gHLtiVfYYDI/w-d-xo.html
It’s the other way around, just flip the two clauses
The answer to your job getting nerfed is to just play Black Mage. They can't figure out how to stop that job from doing MAXIMUM numbers.
Might be like that now, but even then it wasn't always like that. This sort of thing can just change at the drop of a dime.
Can't mess with Yoshi's main. He'll drop another Dalmund.
@@SuccubiPie I think all of our fate is to have Yoshi-P drop another Dalmund on us one day anyways.
He's just going to wake up one day, and be like "enough".
warrior has always been strong
No doubt partially thanks to the Warrior playerbase online practically knowing where Yoshi-P lives, should their job have *any* major issues at all.
Sanford: "Pick a top tier if you want to win."
Rangchu: "Hold my bamboo."
"Imagine being carried by DLC"
An actual comment made on a Twitch Chat in response to Joker winning Tournaments in Smash
Woolie really is a man after my own heart. I could play the same character in a game for *years* and never get bored. I'd rather be known as good at that character than good at the game in general.
Same. I played as fulgore fornyears with a little bit of shadow jago but fulgore was my meat and potatoes
I've mained Ike since he showed up. I've been doing some forays into Ridley and Roy, but I keep gravitating back to him. He's just the kind of character I like: Strong hits, not tremendously heavy while still being meaty, versatile moveset.
I like playing a group of characters. I'll have one character that I'm really good with, but use the other characters as barriers to my main.
You aren't known at all lmao
@@watur123 Oof. Epic burn, my man!
There's always that reverse gut feeling when you pick someone and find out that they're a top tier nightmare who apparently demolishes at high level, and people start calling you a tier scrub and such
I think if you stay loyal for all the balance patches you can prove them wrong, but the ultimate truth in fighting games is simply that play who you want. Even if you like a low tier, if you aren't having FUN playing them then dont play them
Reading this reminded me of my sister who is a Chun Li main since 93 then third strike came around....
This is absolutely my problem in Smash. I generally only play with friends, so that feeling is way stronger. I liked ROB in 4, but then felt the need to switch when I found out he was high tier. Same with Metaknight in Brawl, Little Mac in 4, and probably a few more that I'm forgetting at the moment. It's that feeling of "Am I actually good, or am I being carried by the character?" In Ultimate, I played Inkling a few times, then resolved to never touch it again, cause I could feel the busted right away once I figured out ink management. So, now I've been spending time with Incineroar, Jigglypuff, Snake, Ridley, and, ironically, Bayo, and my W/L has gotten a lot more evened out, which makes me feel way better.
Yeah that is a kind of sucky situation that can occur too.
Best thing I can imagine to do is just stick to your guns, and if the character's nerfed...try not to switch off of them *too* fast. lol
@@Kiyosuki If you switch off a high tier when they're nerfed, then you weren't really playing them for fun, just for the ability to win easily. At least that's what that tells me.
@@SunsetSullivan Yeah exactly. It's like, it doesn't help one's case even if they insist they just innocently wanted to play that character for loyalty. It's like confirming naysayers. Situation probably doubly sucks though if said character gets nerfed so bad they're not even viable anymore.
Then again though, the kinds of people who get hung up on competitors picking top tiers in a competition shouldn't be indulged in so much either.
TIL my approach to fighting games is "like Woolie, but without the dedication to actually learning the systems".
At the end of the day, the purpose of Games is to have fun. Some people have fun playing, others have fun winning. Nothing wrong with either.
So you are just a scrub? Play time will make you better, but learning the systems boost you way ahead.
@@MrTeucro99 No, the person just merely plays casually. A scrub is someone who thinks they're skilled, but they suck.
@@blaacksugar7714 Exactly. Dirty casual here, not enough time or skill to git gud. In the games I do play, I stick with the characters I really like instead of the ones I can win with.
@@blaacksugar7714 I tought it meant just to play and suck at fighting games, thanks for clarifing ^_^.
19:54 , Rangchu with Panda WINNING Tekken World Tour is the ultimate Low Tier God (no, not him) moment.
M E N T A L L Y U N T O U C H A B L E
Amen, brother! Not only did he win Tekken World Tour with panda, he won it by beating Qudans, a living legend who had recently made his comeback.
That's like one of the lepers beating up post-ressurection Jezus!
Aaaaand they nerfed Bears. Probably not gonna see Rangchu doing it again.
Joker is definitely one of the best characters in Smash Ultimate, but he's definitely NOT the next Smash 4 Bayo or Brawl Meta Knight. Too many people aren't giving MK Leo the credit he deserves. He was the best player there.
But HERO on the other hand...
I definitely agree. People were saying Ike was "too good" back when MKLeo was playing him.
One thing that's never not irked me a bit over the years is when a player like Leo isn't acknowledged for their own input. That it *has* to be the character, even though Jokers that weren't MKLeo got absolutely blown up this evo generally. Leo made it but it was *not* a good time for Joker mains overall.
When people give too much attention to the characters and not the players using them, especially when it's completely unwarranted (ie: results are just not suggesting a top players' pick is breaking the meta like knee jerk reactions would suggest.) I just hate that, it's so scrubby.
Absolutely. Nobody comes back from being down 2 games on loser's side in Grand Finals at the biggest tournaments in the world TWICE without being clearly the best player in the room. The mental toughness is staggering
My problem with the "Pick a Top Teir" mentality is that I find it super depressing.
"Here's a game with [X] number of characters.... only three of them are worth playing, all those other ones are literal wastes of space on the disk. They shouldn't even have been put in the game, they're literally worthless."
Or at least that's how it feels to me. Maybe this isn't why I'm not super seriously into fighting games.
Even when playing a top teir character, if there's a character I like more, then I'm not having as much fun as I could be.
Exactly my problem. It's just like that in Pokémon, too--whole *types* of Pokémon are useless because of how abundant Rock-types are in the Meta. So there are Pokémon who are great, have wonderful movepools or stats, or are otherwise *awesome*... but because Meta-trainers are incapable of playing without "optimal" Stealth Rock/Sandstorm strats, these Pokémon are lucky to see the Under-Used tier. I'm lucky Scizor is one of my faves, but it was useless for a long time; before it gained the Technician/Bullet Punch combo, Scizor was a *liability* because of its 4x weakness to Fire. But then the one-two punch of the Technician/BP combo and the abundance of Stealth Rock made Scizor Over-Used overnight.
And then Pokémon players have the gall to complain when Game Freak announces they won't have the whole Pokédex in Sw/Sh.
Oh top tier shit is just usually in people's heads lol. It's only really a thing in bad games and strive. Like, rev 2 is more or less fine
@@dracomundo1498 Strive has way less of a top tier problem than the other GGs tbh lol
@@dracomundo1498 you don't know what your talking about.
I'm definitely more with Woolie than with Max on this one, perfect balance is unnecessary but sorry Max I don't want 3S Chun and Sean
since when is sean top tier in 3s
@@voltekka47 Think he means the gulf between them. By "gulf", I mean "ocean planet"
What James Underwood said, try to understand what people are saying before posting.
I like the philosophy if every one is broken no one is, buff the low tiers, barely touch the top tiers let the game get slimier and dirtier.
You can have fun.
Or you can win.
Sounds like an overbearing parent lol
Look, I'm not saying "play to win". You should play fighting games to have fun. But winning is fun. I don't know where I'm going with this.
@@notesscrotes4360 i think if you can ONLY have fun when you're winning is the issue lol
@@kingoftropes922 That's the secret they don't tell you about: You gotta enjoy losing, too.
@@notesscrotes4360 the mantra of party time yoshimitsu's
@@notesscrotes4360 Don't enjoy losing. Enjoy the knowledge you gain from it.
SO how much longer till you start linking the Twitch channel into the video like you do the sound cloud stuff?
I still can't take how you miss such an obvious plug after all this time.
For the same reason they don't just host the podcast here, I bet. It hurts the audio version, and hurts the channel by TH-cam's algorithm not recommending Woolie's stuff more since it's hours of content that people might not make it all the way through and not come back to.
@@johnbuscher I don't get the last one at all, im not saying post the whole vod im saying link to the twitch account along with the others. It may hurt the audio version yes but thats only if someone chooses to watch the live/vod on twitch which you have to be a paid subscriber for, so that would mean more revenue.
Hes got the free version links but not the "Premium version"ish visual one.
@@badabingee you are indeed correct. Twitch is a direct competitor to youtube.
Man. This conversation make me appreciate Pepeday so much. ElFuerte was my guy in SFIV, no matter how much I lost. Watching him style on people around the time ultra finally came out gave me life.
Didn't you guys advise a while ago to pick a top tier and a low tier, in case a future patch either nerfs/buffs your favourite of the two?
The Character Select Option Select
Darli being low tier is disappointing but fitting for Woolie.
Wanna know what's funny? Darli isn't low tier. She's about Mid (low mid, high mid? Not sure). But there are characters worse than her. The High/Top Tier in SamSho are just that much more oppressive right now.
I definitely don't think she's a low tier, she feels more mid to me. Depending on where SamSho goes from here, whats nerfed/buffed, and how things shift in general overall I kind of feel like she could go either way in future.
I wouldn't call her mid Kyoshiro is the absolute bottom but her Shiki and Wu are only a little better than that
Woolie's love for Darli is bigger than his love for winning and here's the proof...
And just think, there's two more made for Woolie characters coming on the horizon since he *is* fighting games now obv
*Laughs in Rangchu*
Raiden Kyrielite Harada laughing at Rangchu now with Season 3 lol
I've been using "That's good shit Sanford" occasionally to reply to advise since 2009 and at this point no one questions it anymore.
Woolie is so much more likeable when he is not afraid to show he that he actually personally cares about something , in this case the character he likes to play as. Instead of acting all "im too kill boss for this shit , its all chemicals anyway".
I think something that player drastically overlook when discussing Tiers is their own abilities. I can play low tier characters and still win why? Because not everyone who plays High Tier characters play at the highest level. So before you switch characters really ask yourself "Is there any way I can improve further before trying to change?"
I can very much sympathize with Woolie's "aesthetic design first" philosophy (I had a bad time in Xenogears for similar reasons), but there's a funny thing about it that I had noticed back in the Fisticuffs days - it was the thing that kept attracting him to boss characters. Spiky, luridly-colored characters with menacingly wild stances were a really popular design for bosses and secret super-fighters for a long time.
As someone who's been playing Morrigan since Vampire Hunter, every single day Sandford Kelly is in my head, saying the same thing.
Just-just pick a top tier.
B-but I like Morrigan...
PICK A TOP TIER.
Or at least play a character that is just straight up same gimmick but better, like Lilith or Dimitri. Seems like a good compromise to me.
I resonate with Woolie. I love playing particulars that catch my eye no matter what Tier. Cervantes from SoulCalibur! Ghost pirate with dual weapons and one of them is a pistol? A mystic black buy with a fucking SYTHE (Scythe?). A wrestler with an animal mask that has CHAIN throws for days. Dude. Winning is cool and great but winning with a character I love is EVEN BETTER THAN THAT!
"Learn to perfect block" is the fighting a good Akihiko in P4AU experience
Great explanation about all of this. While I am glad "Just pick a top tier" is a meme that's survived all these years, part of what still makes it remain funny to me is how much it attempts to simplify what's actually a really nuanced situation. I mean, yeah you want to give yourself the best chance possible to win in a tournament environment....but how many majors occur where a good 70% of the pools are all people taking that mentality at face value only to get washed out despite their top tier character being supposed to give them their "best chance"? There's so many factors in play here, the nature of the game itself (which is the most important, I think some games are more beholden to their tier lists than others and vise versa. Like Tekken 7 for instance, while having tiers, has shown that the nature of the game itself and how its played has made it a lot more possible for less popular or superficially "strong" characters to win.), matchups overall, and imo how familiar people become overtime to a character.
That last one I think is actually a very understated but important factor. If you see the same character, no matter how strong, all the time your experience versus that character is just going to be that much greater. That's why I think a lot of fighting game metas have a habit of having a character who's exceedingly simple but very strong tend to dominate the meta early on, but fall off more and more as time goes on because their simplicity ends up becoming a bit of a drawback in a way since no one's surprised by what that character can do anymore (unless said character is like, a Meta Knight or something, and just freakishly strong for the limited input given but then that's on the devs.)
I can see Genjuro going down that way tbh. He's really strong now, but even at this stage among the 3 Genjuros that made it only Infiltration didn't seem to get outright read. They'll probably nerf him a bit too.I like to think fighter metas build *around* the top tier characters...and that in itself can end up changing what characters are top tier or just *how* top tier they are.
And yeah, it is fun to win...but like Woolie said, if you can be "that guy" that stands out in top 8 amongst a bunch of power hungry tier huggers, that's almost as coveted an FGC dream in itself. It's what makes the scene so unique.
Aaand Genjuro's nerf bat just hit, a lot more promptly than I was expecting tbh.
I feel Woolie's plight on a deeply personal level. I'll play Pokemon Trainer for how interesting it is to swap between 3 characters. I'll play Lucina for a change of pace. I'll play Falcon for hype.
But I play Greninja for fun, because I love the character. I put hundreds of hours into this one character because I'd rather be the hype Greninja player than Wolf #2,500,000. I'd rather play this unique, underrated, super fun character that I really enjoy both as a fighter and a Pokemon than any character that's strictly easier and better.
And y'know, I'll never be on that stage. I'll never be competing for Smash Ultimate EVO finals or even any small tournament. So this is the way for me to go, and I think many more people would have more fun if they realized that playing the character you love and learning how to play those tough matchups is more fun and rewarding than just picking the top tier and coasting.
That said, anyone playing a top tier in any fighting game has my respect, and I love watching high level tournament play with those characters. No hate, you do you.
I don't think games should be perfectly balanced either, but characters shouldn't have to be useless either. I main Yashamaru in Samsho, and while he does have some strengths that will help you win matches, he has moves that are literally useless. Using J214x is a death sentence, on block or hit, and the hitboxes on it are whack. I learned in a couple of hours of gameplay that using it in general is pointless.
Just make characters good, while still having your OP assholes.
You guys are the best when talking about things you genuinely love
Like hype ass fighting games
The fact that more people are realizing this faster about how fighting games work really makes you think about how educational SamSho is for people looking to #GetIntoFightingGames
Considering Rangchu annihilated TWT with what many considered a bottom tier character. If the game balance is good enough, at some point, you just gotta stop blaming the character and put the time in.
Yeah and that was sick. But the largest chunk of the player base is playing Genjuro and I’m sick of seeing his fucking face. Every time I fight him, I’m not playing the game. I’m just reacting to his tools and punishing. That’s not fun. That’s disrespecting his neutral because I have zero respect for him. And if I don’t react or block, I’m fucked. That’s not fun.
The problem with Samsho isn’t that some people are just too op that it’s a get gud scrub problem, it’s some people are just too good so I no longer get to play the neutral with actual footsies and just stuck reacting to someone pushing buttons. Only some characters can meet each other in the middle like that when it should be more.
P W I don’t mind top tiers unlike some communities, but the Samsho player base has an epidemic.
@@SorryIBlackedOut but that's a perfect initial scenario. Now he's the top tier villian that everyone hates. Every he needs a character like that at some point
Bleack I’d agree... if he was fun to fight. Games like this have similar scenarios where some characters are tremendously better, but balanced. Sagat and Akuma (not vanilla Sagat tho), the 6 characters who dominate MVC2, Vergil in MVC3 etc. Genjuro isn’t any of that. He’s fucking Jack 7. No one likes watching Jack 7.
@@pw5975 i feel like the intent of his statement there was not to say that the game is intentional unbalanced so that certain characters are just in-arguably better, but that the game's "balancing" prevents perfect 50/50. The worst thing you can have in a fighting game after in terms of character kits is symmetry
Personally, if your gonna pick a top tier be honest about it, don't sit there and say "Oh man, this character is so cool, and I love their design," only for the next patch to completely nerf 'em and you go to the newest easy money character. I laughed my ass off when this happened to Gord in BBTag, "Oh, I'm not like those other guys, I'm loyal." One week later playing Yuzu/Mitsu/Merk. There's no shame in playing something if your gonna make money off it, there is shame in lying though.
For me, I play the characters that look interesting and fit my play style, and since the meta is centered around a few characters I always have a couple of obscure characters in my pocket, that rarely seen so that I might be able get a surprise factor in. I also find it funny cause a lot of times there are really good characters that require a little bit of effort but are nigh unstoppable when played right, going back to Tag: Rachel, Aigis, and Mika, (don't shun me but I've seen some amazing Makoto's that wreck the top tiers).
All that being said, I find it annoying as shit when some characters have clear advantages over others and the person playing them is smug about.
I'll never forget last years EVO, dude got absolutely destroyed playing Yukiko in pools. I salute that level of character loyalty
@@triburst yeah, I remember when nobody would touch Weiss, now shes being levied in the top 10
These are pretty much my exact feelings when it comes to people playing fighters competitively. I play DBFZ competitively (though I'm currently on break due to burn out) and one player that had GT Goku on his team shortly after the DLC came out for some reason would try to make justifcations for him not qualifying as a top tier even though the character straight up breaks some established rules and has a lot of "privileges" other characters don't have. We already know pro players aren't usually loyal to characters, there's no reason to defend your choice when it's obvious that choice will get results.
For me personally, I just play characters that are comfy. Whether good or not, I'll know what I like once I try them out for half an hour. Plus when you play a 3 character fighter you can balance out your team so I get the best of both worlds of primarily playing my favorites while having my "tier whore" picks.
@@TeamHedge I often notice that games with simplified mechanics have a higher reliance on tier rankings. In Guilty Gear or BlazBlue CF, you have many tools and mechanics that if used right can easily make up any disadvantage a lower tier character has. SFV for one is notorious for lowering the skill ceiling and then like clockwork the seasonal tier lists became a big deal and character loyalty was nonexistent.
That's something that I noticed anyways (the same shit happens a lot in BBTag, and the never dying Bardock) and if I'm right then I got a whole lot of fear for whats about to happen to the next Guilty Gear.
Picking top tier is great, shame woolie didn't pick the top tier fire emblem house
He picked shit tier, I believe
Hol up, Woolie's playing the new FE?
@@JF-vz1ju yeah he mentioned he picked golden deer in the last "podcast is out" announcement video
@@josephmartinez5751 nice 👌
@@josephmartinez5751 So he *did* pick the best house
"Play Super Smash Bros. Like nobody is watching, Love your mains like they'll never be nerfed, Spam like you're fighting a CPU, and live like its an Omega Stage on For Glory."
-William W. Purkey, probably
Dear Woolie,
I feel ya.
Signed,
A Little Mac Smash Main.
Only three words come to mind constantly when I listen to this:
Low
Tier
God
"You cannot escape from the Genjurutsu."
7:45 I kind of agree with that mentality where maybe leave some shit unbalanced because it makes seeing those off meta character popping off against them that much more exciting to see however rare that happens.
I really don't agree with designing a game to intentionally have strength discrepancies... variety > balance, but designing for strength imbalance doesn't make variety, they have to be viable options.
Shout out to Abegen playing She-Hulk/Tron/Thor
Nothing wrong with picking up a Top Tier character. Would you bring a knife to a gun fight?
Depends on how good you are with knives and how shit they are with guns.
Doesn't bison and half the SF cast do just that?
Woolie is known for playing first person shooters with melee weapons only.
@@WTFisTingispingis True. Some people are shit with guns.
Because fun
If I ever get involved with the production of a fighting game, I want to make a character who woolie would enjoy playing, and would excel with...
On the condition it's a design he abhores.
Because I enjoy juxtaposition
I think there was a boxer character in some game a while back that had that effect on him.
"I hate his ridiculous hair. I hate his stupid gloves. He will be my main."
Arcana Heart is way ahead of you there.
When I played SF 5 I 1st picked Ryu since he's roughly the same and I know what to expect. But I picked up Dictator since I always liked his psycho power gimmick and hitting people with crouching middle punch. I felt so proud when Problem X won EVO.
Well, it's a good thing Woolie didn't switch to Genjuro seeing as he got sliced up in the lastest patch.
I play all humans in dbz fighters, I feel your pain, but when you pull off the tri beam 7 stack... tears of joy.
Or Yamcha and his speed.
I stretch it a little and use the "Androids" but yeah they should add more humans. Roshi, Yajirobe, Uub etc etc
Guess what?? Tier lists also work the opposite way.
Winning MVC2 with Storm, Sentinel, and Magneto:
"Good for him"
Winning MVC2 Servbot, Amingo, and Venom:
"WHAT THE FUCKING FUCK!!!??? WHA-!? BUH-!? I gotta check this guy out."
MAX=Generally on the right side of the issue
NO
NOOOOOO
PICK WHO YOU LIKE
Whatever you choose, I understand.
Just pick what you have fun with and only winning is fun so pick a top tier
Its possible to not like playing "non tournament viable" characters in a competitive fashion🙃
Yeah dude. I love picking the really fast characters with lots of movement and mix up options.
It tends to go pretty well for me.
@@swkki9461 panda winning a tekken tournament would like to have a word.
Card games are like this sometimes. Low tier decks get shit on so hard you are basically required to constantly buy the newest most powerful deck.
Also shout out to Calebcity, hell yeah!
25:02 We had a thing like this in League of Legends that didn't turn out as great. I mained this character named Aatrox (elegant big sword demon, kinda emo) for close to two years. During this time, the community was just fucking RAILING on Aatrox. "Who even plays this character?" "You picked HIM? You're fucking trolling." "Fuck you for picking that character, I'm afk." During this time, he received almost no balance changes and I remained loyal to him. And I got good. I climbed the highest I ever got in the rankings. But community perception of the character was so overwhelmingly (uninformedly) negative that he was slated for a rework. And in his last months of existence, he finally started seeing play at the highest professional level. People started flocking to him. People were excited about him.
And Riot Games got rid of him anyways.
Now, he's some thing I can't even play with voices on because he pisses me off too much.
As much as it is nice to be good at the thing everyone says is "bad", community perception DOES matter these days.
Honestly, after seeing PurePure bring a Labrys to Persona 4 Ultimax's EVO Top 8 some years back. I think "Just pick a Top Tier" is bullcrap. If you wanna win, just git gud.
Pick whatever is the most fun for you. I personally have more fun playing somebody like Darli than I would playing Genjuro. It's not because I enjoy the challenge of playing a low tier or am too prideful to play a high tier. I just really fucking like Darli.
I JUST GOT TO THIS BIT IN THE PODCAST WHEN THE NOTIFICATION POPPED UP
"FUCK WORKING! WHO WANTS TO WORK?"
sorry for allcaps lol
You had fun playing Joker? I think you mean you had fun winning.
I mean,only 1 person did consistently well with Joker at EVO(and only cause Joker fits his play style).
Wasn't there just one Joker in all of top 32?
Whenever I see Pat it's like he slowly morphing into whatever he is sitting in, I swear one day Paige is gonna come home from McDonald's and find Pat missing with nothing but a small indent in the couch from where he used to be.
I play for honor. And this is my issue
Yo I play gladiator, I feel it. After people know your gimmicks you got nothing
Sometimes character loyalty pays off. I was a Jam main since GGX2, come +R and suddenly Jam is God tier to the point of I can press buttons and win.
Overpowered characters are rarely fun, wining because the thing you picked is so much better does nothing but devalue both players effort and player decisions. In the worst cases, I would argue that you are playing less of the game as alot of the challenge is negated.
Man did woolie hit the jackpot with picking steve for tekken
Can someone link me the Darli x Woolie doujinshi?
Man i feel bad for the peeps who genuinely love their fighter (design was and what not) but get called an asshole cause said fighter happens to be top tier
ex: me and my boy Jin
Fucking tier scrub Jin smh my head.
Kuma is a better Mishima than Jin
2:02 The ghost of Sanford Kelly
The thing about fighting games is it's fun to play, it's fun to win, it's not fun when you don't even get the chance to play
I'm lucky because the characters I always pick first have been really consistently good. I just choose the coolest character but end up getting the top tier. I play genjiro in samsho because the Japanese door cutting is cool and I chose adult gohan because I like his hair style.
wollie and me are kindred spirits
Damn speak of the devil that balance patch that just dropped was massive. Genjuro just got hit with quite the nerf bat. Increased recovery on his SRK, only HS SRK has invincibility (same with all SRKs now.), second hit of his kick is no longer an overhead, crouching MS reduced range, his grab got massively reduced range. Meanwhile Darli got buffs across the board. Faster walkspeed, first hit of standing MS can now be cancelled into specials, surf moves all buffed, all HS' buffed all around to name a few things. Woolie and all Darli users'll probably be just fine.
And that's not even getting into how many other changes happened for other characters. Shiki got like, *omega* buffed. It's quite the patch.
I normally just pick which ever character I like most. Sometimes I get lucky and get gud with ken from third strike, then sometimes I get stuck with season 2 fulgore 😑. (Cant remember if it was season 2 or 3 they gave home the charge function) but I hey I stick with him and have fun. It's nice beating top tier characters with trash from time to time
Every single time I play Android 17 or Amy in SCVI I feel this. I used to feel this with BBTAG Linne, but then Yuzu came out and I've been fine since.
Hey Woolie, 1.11 just dropped. Darli got super buffed. Enjoy.
Just have 2 characters. 1 for fun who you want to play, and the other to win.
Cause then you're half as good at two characters instead of really good at the top-tier
^ Only one "Main" is for people who just won't put the **time** in!
As a much longer term MMORPG player than Mr. Fuccboivan, I can say 100% that is the ONLY approach that will enable you to consistently No-Life any super grindy Game that also has raid style Skill-checks for **years** at a time without completely burning out. ...no Vacations or cheating on it like Pat does either, we're talking 6-8 hours a day... Split personality masochism!
Darli's main functionality in the game is putting the endboss directly into the toilet where she belongs and honestly that's enough.
Do you wanna win? YOU WANNA WIN?
No hustle, loyalty or respect. Pick a top tier.
Not fighting games, but I remember me and my friends losing our shit seeing Se Jun's Patchirisu winning masters at the 2014 pokemon world championship
Samsho is such a treasure, most people wrote it off but now? everybody got in the hype, I feel the game will get big
Once Banjo-Kazooie comes out in Smash I don't care where he sits in the tier list I will always pick him.
Crazy talk really came through for you there Woolz
15:13 Woolie what do you mean?!!? Just stagger Paper bro
lol chris g didn't invent that morrigan missle bull shit he stole that from someone else. he got called out for it a long time ago but to his credit he did the best w/ it out of anyone else.
Poor Woolie being a Kotal Stan who really has to stare at his half-dead hero face down on the ground with his bruised sunburnt ass out, weakly waving a worn and torn flag cheering softly.
May Liu Kang's new universe give the green man some dignity back.
Tired of working for the money? Make the money work for you Woolie.
That’s always my problem with fighting games is the character I like the most is always the one I have to work the hardest with
This reminds me of how my first main in SFIV was Dan and i was endlessly tormented by my friends for it lol. Still clapped their cheeks sometimes with him tho. I was way more satisfied saying I could beat their Evil Ryu with Dan than I was playing high tier dudes.
Woolie's gonna carry that weight, carry that weight.
I always prefer playing as characters that I think are fun and weird as opposed to the ones that are popular.
Tier snobbery is so irritating to me I'm willing to say 'Play who you want to' just to spite that schoolyard bullshit.
But panda tho
You could always play Darli casually and Genjuro for serious games. Playing other characters casually can help put your serious main into perspective. There's nothing wrong with sticking with Darli though.
Pretty good video and No dislikes? Impressive.
I main Groh in Soul Cal and feel Woolie there he does have to work a little harder to get wins compared to some of his counterparts but I enjoy playing as him way to much to drop him
... so, it's kinda like Baiken all over again...
: (
Baiken was and still is mad good in every game she’s been in lol
Pick whomever you think is cool, fuck tiers.
Winning is the best, but beating someone with a mediocre or bad character is delicious. Say in Street Fighter and you main Dan Hibiki and are so good you beat decent players with them using one of the top characters is hilarious.
Yeah that is gonna happen very rarely
@@Johnnycpublic of course, but it's still hilarious when it happens.
Samsho just got a balance patch, maybe Woolie's luck will change
But at least I have my honor I say as I drown in pools
The whole reason why I play Shai on bdo
Being a little loli healer that people underestimate and just charge at is soooo rewarding when they don’t even think that a shai can do anything
I keep ruining people’s day by killing them as a boomerang child that they though was nothing
It’s great
Pick An Upper Mid.
Surprised no one mentioned Rangchu and Panda.
Darli got buffed as of 5 hours ago
So you wanna be like Bonchan, the best Sagat. Instead of, another Akuma/ Rashid.
23:30 so you like melee now pat?