Great program gentlemen, thank you! I was on a mission in Switzerland in the early 1980’s. I was involved in a trade off, and spent a day in Germany. First thing I noticed in Germany was there weren’t many older men on the street like Switzerland. I asked the member in whose home the missionary lived, a psychologist, where are all the older men.?. She told me they were killed in the war. I ask… that many and she nodded and said yes. I found that shocking! It wasn’t uncommon to find female members in their 70-80’s+, in Switzerland, who had lost their entire families in the war. They often converted to Mormonism and fed the missionaries a meal once a month or so, wonderful meals from their limited incomes. They are wonderful people who lived through incredible times. They opened my mind and my heart by their generosity.
Doesn't the church just use the twelfth article of faith to justify supporting whatever regime is in power? It seems to me that the LDS church cowers to authority in order to rise through the ranks itself.
Those who "excommunicate" others HAVE NO AUTHORITY to do anything! Once people realize this, they will feel better about breaking with the bogus church and its unrighteous dominion.
This is one of the best episodes you've made! A lot of take-aways here. The parallels between a high demand religion and a high demand political regime are alarming. It's about unquestioning allegiance (obedience to those in power), not about doing good works. On a smaller scale, in small communities and in the business world, this same concept holds true. Keep your mouth shut and follow the man in power, and you will be rewarded.
Listening later. My father served a 50:13 mission in Germany soon after WWII. He is 94 now and has many stories about the state of LDS members then. His mission was about restoring communication with the Saints.
Tim Rathbone and I both served in the same mission at the same time. When I was in Essen, bishop Fricke, of whom Tim spoke, gave me WW2 rations when I ran out of money one month. Generally, members wouldn’t talk to me about the war.
Excellent book. I think I’ll re-read it now that I’ve been out 6 years. I will say that this, to me, proves the Church does not stand for “truth and righteousness.” It stands for the protection of the Corporation no matter what the moral cost. I believe actions taken by leaders were to protect the organization, not its people. America as well as the Church was a segregated society and not a far stretch to believe that many people would have been supportive of a racial ideology that actually modeled itself after our very own Jim Crowe laws. 😢 If Nazism had prevailed, I feel many of the Church leadership would have been only too happy to support its ideology. Thank goodness this was not the case.
Thanks for another great episode. I think you have more never Mormons listening than you know. I fall in that category as well. My husband was still an active Mormon when I met him and I love getting insight into what his life was like under that influence. I love history and this was very informative.
I have a copy of the book Moroni and the Swastika. Its an interesting read. From what I've read there and elsewhere, the LDS church practiced avoidance and confrontation while other churches (think Bonhoeffer) risked their lives fighting the Nazi power. The order to avoid confrontation came from SLC. Individual LDS did stand up but that was apparently against orders.
Yes and no: The Vatican cozied up with Mussolini and Hitler even though many Catholic bishops and priests risked their lives helping Jews hide and escape from the regime in Germany and Nazi-occupied Europe. The history of the reaction by religious leaders to the Nazi regime tends to be messy and often confusing and conflicting This is a generalization, but it holds true: most of the churches that had investments in German-controlled territories had leaders who made nice with the Nazis (including the Catholic Church, the German Lutheran leadership and the LDS church) while at the same time they had many local parish leaders who stood up to tyranny Very few churches took a firm stance on an institutional level or came out firmly against tyranny throughout the era of WWII
@@tirdadderakhshani1940Unfortunately the same can be said of private businesses and even other countries. Even though the Allies fought against German occupation, no country served as an open refuge for fleeing Jewish families. Most pretended not to know that Jews were being slaughtered on a mass scale.
I learned and spoke high German in Hamburg Germany. Your explanation of the final e and th is correct. Although your pronunciation of danke made me smile. Almost every religion had a poor track record during the Nazi regime. Very few in Germany, risked their lives to oppose the regime or save Jewish lives. Perhaps only JWs can claim righteousness among Christian sects.
This is an extremly importen topic, not only for history but also concerning these days (ex how some religon in US supports Israel NOT for the israelies but for their own sake according the book of revelation) In sweden we let german train pass through sweden AND we have acknologied and appoligised for it without pointing out that many swedes (including my father) helped judes into sweden in mass. One good thing doesnt wash away bad action. And to bow to goverment is only a way to gain power. Thank you And Im sorry for beeing so upset here
This also goes back to the early church history where there was slavery in the Utah territory (though on a very limited basis) and the priesthood ban. It seems that the church has a history of being on the wrong side of history when it comes to moral and human rights issues... I read the book a years ago and was astounded....
FYI There is a movie on Amazon prime now called “escape from Germany” noted to be a true story of Mormon missionaries escaping Germany under Hitler’s control. It is in German but has English subtitles. Production date 2024.
14:40 what the...are you discussing - a better way to be executed?!? Seriously? Please don't forget the people in these regimes are being tortured during the interrogations. Low point of this episode. Great episode otherwise! Will look out the book. The topic is very interesting. Thank you!
I despair when it comes to the future of the American educational system: When I was a kid we had thorough history lessons that covered the basics of WWII and of the Nazi menace But listening to the folks at Mormon Discussions I'm struck by how unfamiliar both hosts seem to be with some basic facts
@@MormonDiscussion I was struck by how unfamiliar y'all seemed with terms such as "Kristallnacht". Many of the major events of the Nazi regime's coming to power ("Night of the Long Knives" the series of Nuremberg rallies, the Nuremberg Laws) as well as the major events that took place during their 12-year reign of terror were drilled into me and my contemporaries in middle school and high school in the 1970s. Those terms seemed foreign or strange when y'all mentioned them. Perhaps it's because you are addressing an audience who may be unfamiliar with them and that's why you were spelling them out -- in which case I despair for the youngsters in the audience who should all be familiar with this stuff. These terms and this history was second-nature to me and I dare say to most of my contemporaries when I was in college in the 1980s. p.s. forgive me my snarky tone. I tend to sound sharper and far ruder than I actually intend. Put it down to my long years of labor as an editor of a newspaper column.
I agree perhaps Bill more than RFM but I think this reflects the pitiful state of the American education system. As a Canadian the educational system is not perfect but of a higher quality partly because the mentally challenged, unmotivated or lazy students are not graduated to avoiding anyone having to experience “failure.” My five kid certainly were taught about the evils of hitler and the Nazi.
Do remember that after Japan attacked our Naval fleet at Pearl Harbor and the shortly after attacked our forces at Clark Field in the Philippines, We declared war against Japan and almost immediately after, Nazi Germany declared war against the United States.
@@GeoplanetjaneIn The U.K. and Europe we appreciate the intervention of the Americans in both wars. It saved millions of lives. Given that Americans are largely descended from Europeans, who wanted to escape all the historical baggage and oppression of Europe, their interventions in European affairs are even more remarkable.
Hey RFM, You were so close to not judging, as though accepting Jesus’ teaching… then you said you could judge a certain man. As you present the truth of Mormonism guts, feathers and all, it’s going to have a detrimental effect on people’s lives. How they fall from their perception of reality, their character and ability to pick themselves up, dust themselves off, lick their wounds to find a new hope forward will vary. If anything, this is a time to display love and understanding toward everyone. You might say that’s not how the world works; but isn’t the spiritual quest to overcome the world!? Teaching basketball to Germans for the Olympics is a wonderful way to interact with people you don’t agree with. They get to know you personally, respect your skills, behaviors which have the ability to reach the inward consciousness of people ruled by a dictator. People choose to follow and participate in building their homeland and society … until they don’t!
This documentary is very well done. The narrator is one of 2 childhood friends who was arrested along with Hemuth Hübner. th-cam.com/users/liveQnOq4gXUJJQ?si=xw6-ex17Z5lhaqEU
It is probably too politically hot to tackle on Mormonism Live, but I am curious about what Bill and RFM think about the Modern Mormons who seem to support the MAGA party that tends to support Nazis, in my opinion.
Until the boy Scouts were dropped, Mormon wards were set up much as Hitler would have liked. In Germany women were pressured to be homemakers(kitchen, children, church) and the boys were taught skills that made them develop bodily strength to defend the homeland.
It's used throughout Asia historically, but is often thought of as an Indian symbol (as in people from India). I'm guessing this is a point of confusion for some people who may hear Indian and assume Native American is meant.
Many pepple did not join up.many priests wete brave and were killed...many people saved jews so i wouldnt be as generous with the willing mormon nazi recruits...i dont think mormons saved anyone.just their own skin. Hard to judge i know but helmut and friends were hetoes.. now they have no love for the palestinians who are being slaughtered by Israel...the hyprocrisy is sickening...great show..😢😢❤❤
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Great program gentlemen, thank you!
I was on a mission in Switzerland in the early 1980’s. I was involved in a trade off, and spent a day in Germany. First thing I noticed in Germany was there weren’t many older men on the street like Switzerland. I asked the member in whose home the missionary lived, a psychologist, where are all the older men.?. She told me they were killed in the war. I ask… that many and she nodded and said yes. I found that shocking!
It wasn’t uncommon to find female members in their 70-80’s+, in Switzerland, who had lost their entire families in the war. They often converted to Mormonism and fed the missionaries a meal once a month or so, wonderful meals from their limited incomes. They are wonderful people who lived through incredible times. They opened my mind and my heart by their generosity.
Thank u 4 sharing🎉🎉🎉❤❤❤❤
Doesn't the church just use the twelfth article of faith to justify supporting whatever regime is in power? It seems to me that the LDS church cowers to authority in order to rise through the ranks itself.
Those who "excommunicate" others HAVE NO AUTHORITY to do anything! Once people realize this, they will feel better about breaking with the bogus church and its unrighteous dominion.
Thank you. So agreed. Happy Holidays 2 you and yours.
🎯 our conclusion as well!
This is one of the best episodes you've made! A lot of take-aways here. The parallels between a high demand religion and a high demand political regime are alarming. It's about unquestioning allegiance (obedience to those in power), not about doing good works. On a smaller scale, in small communities and in the business world, this same concept holds true. Keep your mouth shut and follow the man in power, and you will be rewarded.
Listening later. My father served a 50:13 mission in Germany soon after WWII. He is 94 now and has many stories about the state of LDS members then. His mission was about restoring communication with the Saints.
Tim Rathbone and I both served in the same mission at the same time. When I was in Essen, bishop Fricke, of whom Tim spoke, gave me WW2 rations when I ran out of money one month. Generally, members wouldn’t talk to me about the war.
My investigators spoke about it.
Excellent book. I think I’ll re-read it now that I’ve been out 6 years. I will say that this, to me, proves the Church does not stand for “truth and righteousness.” It stands for the protection of the Corporation no matter what the moral cost.
I believe actions taken by leaders were to protect the organization, not its people. America as well as the Church was a segregated society and not a far stretch to believe that many people would have been supportive of a racial ideology that actually modeled itself after our very own Jim Crowe laws. 😢
If Nazism had prevailed, I feel many of the Church leadership would have been only too happy to support its ideology. Thank goodness this was not the case.
So right
Thanks for another great episode. I think you have more never Mormons listening than you know. I fall in that category as well. My husband was still an active Mormon when I met him and I love getting insight into what his life was like under that influence. I love history and this was very informative.
I have a copy of the book Moroni and the Swastika. Its an interesting read. From what I've read there and elsewhere, the LDS church practiced avoidance and confrontation while other churches (think Bonhoeffer) risked their lives fighting the Nazi power. The order to avoid confrontation came from SLC. Individual LDS did stand up but that was apparently against orders.
Yes and no: The Vatican cozied up with Mussolini and Hitler even though many Catholic bishops and priests risked their lives helping Jews hide and escape from the regime in Germany and Nazi-occupied Europe.
The history of the reaction by religious leaders to the Nazi regime tends to be messy and often confusing and conflicting
This is a generalization, but it holds true: most of the churches that had investments in German-controlled territories had leaders who made nice with the Nazis (including the Catholic Church, the German Lutheran leadership and the LDS church) while at the same time they had many local parish leaders who stood up to tyranny
Very few churches took a firm stance on an institutional level or came out firmly against tyranny throughout the era of WWII
@@tirdadderakhshani1940Unfortunately the same can be said of private businesses and even other countries. Even though the Allies fought against German occupation, no country served as an open refuge for fleeing Jewish families. Most pretended not to know that Jews were being slaughtered on a mass scale.
I learned and spoke high German in Hamburg Germany. Your explanation of the final e and th is correct. Although your pronunciation of danke made me smile.
Almost every religion had a poor track record during the Nazi regime. Very few in Germany, risked their lives to oppose the regime or save Jewish lives. Perhaps only JWs can claim righteousness among Christian sects.
Maybe they were good to Jews, but they treat their own families and especially, members who leave their sect, VERY BADLY.
LDS abuse on X has discussed some of the connections of the LDS church and the Nazis.
This is an extremly importen topic, not only for history but also concerning these days (ex how some religon in US supports Israel NOT for the israelies but for their own sake according the book of revelation)
In sweden we let german train pass through sweden AND we have acknologied and appoligised for it without pointing out that many swedes (including my father) helped judes into sweden in mass.
One good thing doesnt wash away bad action. And to bow to goverment is only a way to gain power.
Thank you
And Im sorry for beeing so upset here
This also goes back to the early church history where there was slavery in the Utah territory (though on a very limited basis) and the priesthood ban. It seems that the church has a history of being on the wrong side of history when it comes to moral and human rights issues... I read the book a years ago and was astounded....
The censorship stuff eg book censorship sounds like what is happening in some states in the US now..
Great episode! Speaking of Germany, have you guys considered investigating Elder Packer's/Bednar's 20 mark note story?
FYI
There is a movie on Amazon prime now called “escape from Germany” noted to be a true story of Mormon missionaries escaping Germany under Hitler’s control. It is in German but has English subtitles. Production date 2024.
Isnt hitler baptised now..??? The leaders went to dinners and mingled with the nazis..many youth joined the ss and served the nazi party..😅😅😅
Thanks!
You bet!
they supported them in Germany
14:40 what the...are you discussing - a better way to be executed?!? Seriously? Please don't forget the people in these regimes are being tortured during the interrogations. Low point of this episode.
Great episode otherwise! Will look out the book. The topic is very interesting. Thank you!
I like the new intro!
I wish I could remember or had recorded as much as Tim Rathbone remembers from the stories I was told.
Apparently, there is no power of discernment within the church.
Stalin was a made up name, it means essentially, “man of steel.”
Pro-Mormon, Jacob Hansen is always going on about "steelmaning."
He probably sees himself as a man of steel, or some kind of Super Hero.
❤d this podcast. DIAMOND
❤❤🎉🎉🎉
I despair when it comes to the future of the American educational system: When I was a kid we had thorough history lessons that covered the basics of WWII and of the Nazi menace
But listening to the folks at Mormon Discussions I'm struck by how unfamiliar both hosts seem to be with some basic facts
Which facts?
@@MormonDiscussion I was struck by how unfamiliar y'all seemed with terms such as "Kristallnacht".
Many of the major events of the Nazi regime's coming to power ("Night of the Long Knives" the series of Nuremberg rallies, the Nuremberg Laws) as well as the major events that took place during their 12-year reign of terror were drilled into me and my contemporaries in middle school and high school in the 1970s.
Those terms seemed foreign or strange when y'all mentioned them. Perhaps it's because you are addressing an audience who may be unfamiliar with them and that's why you were spelling them out -- in which case I despair for the youngsters in the audience who should all be familiar with this stuff.
These terms and this history was second-nature to me and I dare say to most of my contemporaries when I was in college in the 1980s.
p.s. forgive me my snarky tone. I tend to sound sharper and far ruder than I actually intend. Put it down to my long years of labor as an editor of a newspaper column.
I agree perhaps Bill more than RFM but I think this reflects the pitiful state of the American education system. As a Canadian the educational system is not perfect but of a higher quality partly because the mentally challenged, unmotivated or lazy students are not graduated to avoiding anyone having to experience “failure.” My five kid certainly were taught about the evils of hitler and the Nazi.
I thought it derived from Indian culture. Meaning peace. The swastika design was reversed by the Nazis.
1:20:14 A story about Monson in On The Lord's Errand mentions his military service.
Kris TALL knocked= Kristallnacht. This pogrom happened all over Germany.
I majored in German in college and did an all but dissertation toward a Ph.D. Also do Japanese and French
Do remember that after Japan attacked our Naval fleet at Pearl Harbor and the shortly after attacked our forces at Clark Field in the Philippines, We declared war against Japan and almost immediately after, Nazi Germany declared war against the United States.
@@GeoplanetjaneIn The U.K. and Europe we appreciate the intervention of the Americans in both wars.
It saved millions of lives.
Given that Americans are largely descended from Europeans, who wanted to escape all the historical baggage and oppression of Europe, their interventions in European affairs are even more remarkable.
Protect the Brand that brands your backside.
Bundisarchiv = Federal Archive. Sicherheitsdienst = Security Service. Also, "Adolf" not "Adolph."
Tim is right, an e at the end is a hard e and not an a. if an a is at the end it's an a. it's relatively easy
Charlie Chaplin. Had the little mustache.
The swastica is a Hindu symbol of luck and protection
What's the best way to make a single donation?
mormonismlive.org/Donate-To-Mormonism-Live/
There’s a place to make it a recurring donation or have it be a single donation
Hey RFM,
You were so close to not judging, as though accepting Jesus’ teaching… then you said you could judge a certain man.
As you present the truth of Mormonism guts, feathers and all, it’s going to have a detrimental effect on people’s lives. How they fall from their perception of reality, their character and ability to pick themselves up, dust themselves off, lick their wounds to find a new hope forward will vary. If anything, this is a time to display love and understanding toward everyone. You might say that’s not how the world works; but isn’t the spiritual quest to overcome the world!?
Teaching basketball to Germans for the Olympics is a wonderful way to interact with people you don’t agree with. They get to know you personally, respect your skills, behaviors which have the ability to reach the inward consciousness of people ruled by a dictator. People choose to follow and participate in building their homeland and society … until they don’t!
Protect the brand that has branded your spiritual backside
This documentary is very well done. The narrator is one of 2 childhood friends who was arrested along with Hemuth Hübner.
th-cam.com/users/liveQnOq4gXUJJQ?si=xw6-ex17Z5lhaqEU
It is probably too politically hot to tackle on Mormonism Live, but I am curious about what Bill and RFM think about the Modern Mormons who seem to support the MAGA party that tends to support Nazis, in my opinion.
Until the boy Scouts were dropped, Mormon wards were set up much as Hitler would have liked. In Germany women were pressured to be homemakers(kitchen, children, church) and the boys were taught skills that made them develop bodily strength to defend the homeland.
I thought it was a Native American symbol.
It's used throughout Asia historically, but is often thought of as an Indian symbol (as in people from India). I'm guessing this is a point of confusion for some people who may hear Indian and assume Native American is meant.
I like the other opening song better……too bad
OMG
Many pepple did not join up.many priests wete brave and were killed...many people saved jews so i wouldnt be as generous with the willing mormon nazi recruits...i dont think mormons saved anyone.just their own skin.
Hard to judge i know but helmut and friends were hetoes.. now they have no love for the palestinians who are being slaughtered by Israel...the hyprocrisy is sickening...great show..😢😢❤❤
Apparently, the church leaders in Nazi Germany were fence sitters.
Helmut ❤🎉 2u
Rfm you should learn Italian it’s a beautiful language
KIND of Racist RFM????
Lotd of widows 2 visit😂😂😂😂😂😂
Thanks!