Yeah imagine coming out of high school and taking an NBA team that won 17 games the previous season to 35, he’s supposed to take them to the playoffs🙄if only he could be like Michael Jordan and make the playoffs with a 30-35 pristine record🤡
Facts of the matter are this.. MJ made the playoffs every year as a BULL. Even his rookie "1v5" days. He missed the playoff 2x in his career at 39 and 40. And yes at 40, before the injury, the wizards were playoff bound.... Don't tell me your boy Lebron gets ANOTHER pass because he was "just old enough to be there," but he wasn't man enough to actually "play" in the NBA yet. Lebron should've been able to "1v5" his way to 1st round, too, right?? Do you think Lebron calls himself the goat while polishing his BRONZE MEDAL 🥉
@@joebuss8835 Michael Jordan made the playoffs with a 30-52 record🙄Michael Jordan also got swept 3x in the first round of the playoffs and is famous for beating 5 unremarkable teams in the weakest era in NBA history. He quit the sport twice in his prime so he always had fresh legs😂and yes didn’t make the playoffs in DC that counts, no Scottie no Phil no playoffs. Frauds don’t get medals, they get undeserved praise
@@user-cs1pi8zg1n did you see Rui hachimura and Austin reeves carry the team along with AD? The lakers won at much higher rate when Lebron was out with injury than with him in the game. Oh and did you see Lebron get blocked twice while trying to be the game hero ? Did you see him fumble a 2 hand dunk and miss a baseline layup? He was literally the worst player out there. MJ lost to the 59 win bucs in his rookie year when he took a 27 win team into a 38 win team his first year. Name one player from the bulls team you would want. Remember the eastern conference back then was not the LEASTERN CONFERENCE. From that point on get these real facts The bulls only lost in playoffs either to the eventual champion or at least the eventual team that went to nba finals. 86 - lost to eventual champ Boston (67 wins) 87- lost to eastern conference champ Boston (59 wins, best in conference) 88- lost to eastern conference champ Detroit(54 wins, second in conference) 89- lost to eventual nba champs (63 wins, best in conference) 90- lost to eventual nba champs (59 wins, best in conference) Compare that tie Lebron 2004 - missed playoffs 2005 - missed playoffs 2006 - lost to a team that didn’t make finals (Detroit) 2007- beat a 41-41 team in first round Beat a 41-41 team in second round Beat a 53 win team in conference finals All junk teams in LEASTERN conference which is why they got swept when the left the JV conference to play in real nba. 2008 - lost in first round to eventual conference champ Boston 2009- lost to eventual eastern conference champ Orlando 2010- lost to eventual eastern conference champ. Notice Lebron never lost to the best team to get knocked out of playoffs. All the teams that knocked him off were at best the SECOND BEST team but many times they were not even that. His first 7 years in the league produced nothing.. Then he quit and ran to wade bosh and pat riley. 3011- biggest choke in nba finals ever. Look at his stats. 2012- lucky to best 22 year old James harden, 23 year old Kevin Durant and 23 year old Westbrook using their prime 27 year old bosh, 27 year old Lebron, and prime 30 year old wade. 2013 -ray Allen bailed him out on a Lebron brick to win championship 2014- gentlemen’s sweep by an old spurs team with 37 year old Duncan, 36 year old ginobli, and a young 22 year old kawhi. Lebron was not old at age 28 and bosh 28 and wade 31. They all are supposed to be prime age. Nothing accomplished in 11 years in league to be considered greatest of all time. MJ played against competition. Lebron joined competition to win.
PEOPLE QUICK TO HOLLA JORDAN WITHOUT PIPPEN BUT THEY DONT SAY BIRD WITHOUT MCHALE PARRISH MAGIC WITHOUT KAREEM RUSSELL WITHOUT HAVLICEK COUSY WILT WITHOUT WEST BAYLOR AND ON AND ON😳
That's because you 🥜 huggers act like he beat teams 1 vs 5 and make his teammates background scenery or were just there to make the numbers even. Y'all never say that about other greats
EXACTLY but wht eats me out more is the fact tht the Older Heads like us knows everything you just said and still cnt be honest enuff to give MJ his Dues 😂😂😂😂, leave the Unfair BS for the Youngsters who dnt kno SHIT and if you get mixed up in the tlk with them well you teach them right from wrong, for all of a sudden they're now SILVER & BRONZE Titles in the NBA. Wen MJ made it to the Playoffs and got SWEPT he was SCRUTINIZE, he made it to the ECF and LOST he got SCRUTINIZED but it's ok for LECHOKE to make it to the NBA FINALS 10x and LOSE 6x being SWEPT 2X and he shudnt be SCRUTINIZED LOLOLOL BUT HE SHUD BE HAILED AS THE GREATEST PLAYER EVER 😂😂😂😂😂😂😂 BS LOLOL I DNT CARE WHT NO ONE HAS TO SAY, HE'S THE NBA'S BEST NO GREATEST FCKN LOSER and now after 5yrs in LA with 1 Ring y'all wanna hail him the greatest Laker ever for winning once, Not Making it to the Playoffs, Gettn knocked out in the first Round, Not Making it to the Play in Tournament and gettn SWEPT in the WCF, it's a good thing am not a LAKERS FAN. 😂😂😂😂😂
@@Amick44 If Dr J's flash wasn't disrupting defenses and winning games, the entire league wouldn't have copied him. No one played the professional game the way Dr J did before Dr J. Now the league is built around that kind of play. There's a bit of collective amnesia regarding 70's players particularly ABA.
@@johncraig4820 no argument. But no GM would trade anyone for Kareem in the 70s. And I'm not exactly a fan of his. However, I do realize he was the supreme player of that decade. Walton stepped in for a couple of years but that was it. Julius, along with Barry, McAdoo, Cowens are vying for 2nd place. But for sheer excitement and fan appeal, Dr J, Pistol Pete and Tiny A are the guys. Then Gervin and Skywalker Thompson mid 70s on.
@@Amick44 Kareem is basketball's past big center post play and Dr. J is basketball's future playing above the rim beating people inside and outside. Would I take Dr. J over LeBron or MJ? Well, I am not stupid but I think the difference in level of play is much less than people realize. I just remember seeing him with the red, white, and blue ball. No one played like he did at the professional level.
@@johncraig4820 I'm not going to call you stupid but your comment was made in ignorance points per game Jordan 30.12(#1) Lebron 27..2 (#6) Dr. J 24.16 (#24) Assists per game Lebron 7.33 (#24) Jordan 5.25 (#104) DR. J 4.16 (#206) Steals per game Jordan 2.35 (#4) Dr. J 1.96 (#17) Lebron 1.54 #76) Rebounds per game DR. J 8.47 (#135) Lebron 7.51 (#207) Jordan (not in the top 250) Blocks per game DR. J 1.67 (#45) Jordan 0.83 (#227) Lebron 0.8 (#239 FG% Dr. J .5069 (#110) Lebron .5046(#123) Jordan .4969 (#165) Stats don't lie. Dr J is the GOAT Fact: It took Lebron 4 years to match the Dr. in total rebounds. Still hasn't caught him in total steals and blocks. Fact: Dr. J did more with less than Jordan Fact: In his prime years Dr. J was prevented from winning scoring titles by Sixers' coach, Gene Shue, who literally told him that they did not need him to score 30 points per game and cut his minutes from over 40 per game to 35 per game.
LeBron never would have the scoring record without the 3 point line. If LeBron played the same years as Kareem, he'd be well behind Kareem still because there was no 3 point line the first several years of his career. There was no going to the NBA out of high school then, and once Kareem was with the Lakers, he was one of FOUR offensive options. If Kareem was the MAIN option instead of their BEST option in a half court offense, who knows how many more points he would have scored. Plus, how many times did the Showtime Lakers score on their fast break before Kareem even made it back to the offensive side? And bringing Malone into the discussion, as good as he is, is a joke, because the whole point of the Jazz was to feed Malone as much as possible. Again, Kareem was only one of MANY offensive weapons the Showtime Lakers had. Just think how many points he would have scored if Kareem was as integral to the Showtime Laker offense as Jordan was to the early Bulls, or Malone to the Jazz or LeBron for whoever he was playing for at the time. Malone didn't have a Worthy/Wilkes and a Byron Scott to siphon off points. I'll be honest, I haven't followed basketball that closely in LeBron's time, but I doubt he's played very many, if any seasons with teams as stacked as the Showtime Lakers were. If Kareem had played straight out of high school, that would have been FOUR more years of him being in the NBA, in theory, anyway.
Going to the finals is one thing. Winning the finals is a whole other thing. Lebron has SIX finals losses and 22-23 in finals games overall. Lebron is a perfect example of quantity over quality and Jordan is a perfect example of quality over quantity. I’d rather go to the finals six times and win all six of them earning FMVP for every single one rather than make it to the finals ten times and only winning four. If we are being real about it he should only have two rings because if it wasn’t for Ray Allen and Kyrie Irving he would of had two more losses to his finals résumé. Like the old heads say it doesn’t mean a thing until you have that ring. Kobe, Duncan, Shaq, Hakeem, Bird, Russell, Kareem, Magic, Curry, and many more players have way better finals records and always won more than not.
Lebron James is a team player. He involves all players on his team and makes them better because he is not a ball hog. Kobe Bryant would not pass the ball to his teammates. Labron acts as a field general, and he does what is necessary for his team to win. Jordan never won a championship until the Bulls signed Scottie Pippin, and he never won another championship after Pippin left the team.
@@maxxmabemwe4859 LeBron is a ball hog and stats proves it. He got more shot attempts and possession than Kobe who is called a "ball hog". Floor General never milk the clock to 4 seconds then pass it to his unsuspecting teammates that could cause a turnover just like what he always do, that's why he's #1 in turnovers all-time.
@@maxxmabemwe4859no Miami rings if not for wade, bosh and ray allen and no cleaveland ring without kyrie and Kevin love. With the lakers, Anthony Davis was clearly robbed of his finals mvp. Pippen was an unproven pickup for the bulls at that time compared to all the greats that Lebron had on his teams. It’s been almost a free ride for Lebron. Look at how much time Lebron have the ball in his possession before he gives it up for not having the heart and courage to take the shot. Lakers 5 rings with Kobe proves that he is also a team player.
It's funny, that recently the Curry vs Magic debate, people will point out that the Lakers were stacked, and also had Worthy (1st overall) in '82 on top of all of that. But all of that winning in the '80s boosted Kareem's career the most. He wasn't drafted by the Lakers. Kareem was gifted playing on team that would land two 1st overall picks in 3 years, not to mention some pretty good talent around him before Magic even arrived; Nixon, Wilkes, and Dantley isn't exactly chopped liver. All that was missing was the person who could stir the drink; which wasn't Kareem.
You are absolutely correct. The only team besides Lebron that had 3 number 1 picks on the same team. Plus the number 2 in Bob McAdoo. The best super team in history.
What about when Kareem got hurt in the 80’s finals in game six and missed game 7? Magic played all five positions and said never fear Magic is here and beat Dr.J and the 76ers. Jamaal Wilkes had a great game too. But what Magic did as a rookie is str8 spectacular that was a phenomenal performance by the Magic Man.
I believe that playing with Magic prolonged Kareem's career by about 4 years. The top 3 players who made every teammate better, always, were Bill Russell, Larry Bird, and Magic Johnson. That attribute does not show up on the stat sheet, but it is an attribute that qualifies a player to be in the GOAT conversation. In the history of the NBA, if I had the choice to draft ONE player, it would be Magic Johnson.
Sure, you make a fair point, but come on man. Does that really cancel Kareems claim as the GOAT?I can say similar things about literally ever other great player, including MJ, Wilt, Kobe, Bird, Magic, or anyone else, especially Lebron (don't even get me started with Lebron). Magic was definately the best player on those 80's Lakers teams. He was younger, and he was naturally going to be the more impactful player because of being a versatille Guard, the greatest passer of all time, the quarterback of the offense, and not being limited to the post offensively. I think Kareem made up for that difference in offensive impact with his defensive ability despite not being as offensively versatille. I'm not saying he was Wilt Chamberlain defensively, but Kareem was an excellent defender when he actually put all of his effort into it. I would argue that two, or more of those Lakers championships would not have ended well for the Lakers without Kareem, especially the 1985 Finals against the Celtics where he dominated looking like the most dominant player on the court that series. Sure, Magic played Center in that 1980 game 7, and he did a phenominal job, but I don't know how it would have impacted the Lakers if he spent that entire series at that position. I think he would have done well, but the Lakers needed Magic at PG to be as effective as they were, and Kareem was a big part of that teams success as well. The Sixers didn't even expect Magic to be such a force at Center, and they probably didn't prepare for that defensively.
@@donavonhoward114 The Lakers needed Kareem when the game slowed down in a half court offense even though Magic can get in that post too. We seen Magic hit that clutch baby hook in the 87 finals against the Celtics. I’m still taking Kobe and Magic over Kareem though and yes Kareem is a all time great player too. MJ, Magic Man and Kobe are my favorite players of all times to me they gave me my moneys worth and they were must see tv 📺. Also they were box office. But if I had to pick a center I will go with Hakeem the Dream. I’ll take Kareem over Shaq too cuZ to me he played better defense.
Exactly my friend. When you look at how the game was played and how to center position was played, and, the fact that Karriem very seldom had the ball in his hands more that 4-5 seconds and to score with that kind of efficiency is underrated and underappreciated. Karriem was an absolute assassin...
Why? The following players were amongst the best of the 1970s, but spent a good amount of time in the ABA during that timespan, leaving a much weaker and watered down NBA for other players to compete in. Rick Barry - 1968/69 - 1971/72, did not play in 1967/68 Artis Gilmore - 1971/72 - 1975/76 Billy Cunningham - 1972/73 - 1973/74 George Gervin - 1972/73 - 1975/76 Julius Erving - 1971/72 - 1975/76 David Thompson - 1975/76 This would be akin to Jordan competing in a league without Isiah, Magic, Drexler, Barkley, Payton, Stockton or Malone for a large chunk of his career, except for the fact that Jordan's group of competition was of far higher quality overall to begin with. The 1970s had a severe dearth of quality NBA competition to begin with, and having to compete with the ABA weakened it even further The 1970s had the weakest MVP competition of any post-infancy era. The likes of Dave Cowens, Bob McAdoo, and Bill Walton won MVP in the 1970s. Bob McAdoo is the only player from an eligible decade to not make the 50 Greatest in 1996. Derrick Rose is likely the only player since 1996 who would not make the 50 Greatest List, and he has been plagued with injuries since his MVP season. The likes of Cowens, McAdoo, and Walton would certainly not sniff an MVP if they were to compete against the likes of prime Moses Malone, Magic, Bird, Jordan, Hakeem, Duncan, Shaq, Kobe, LeBron, etc. The competition was so poor in 1976 that Kareem became the only MVP in NBA history to win the award despite missing the playoffs. When the best player in the league can't even make the playoffs, that says a lot about the quality of the league as a whole for that particular season. In fact, Kareem is the only consensus top 10 player to miss the playoffs twice in his prime, doing so in 1975 and 1976. Likewise, when the best player of that era missed the playoffs twice in his prime, that says a lot about the quality of the NBA in the 1970s as a whole. is a statistical fact that the 1970s had the weakest team competition of any post-infancy decade. In 1973/74 and 4 consecutive seasons from 1975/76 to 1978/79, the league failed to produce even one 60-win team in those 5 seasons. For comparison, from 1980 onwards, the 2000/01 season is the only year in which the league did not produce a 60-win team; the Spurs had the best record at 58-24. The league failed to produce a 60-win team for half of the 1970s, yet this has only occurred once in 35+ seasons since then. Even in 2001, however, the Lakers had to beat 4 50+ win teams to win the title. No title team in the 1970s faced a path remotely comparable to the 2001 Lakers' stacked overall competition. It is also worth noting that the 1970s produced 8 of the 17 sub-50 win teams to make the NBA Finals from 1960-present. Sub-50 Win Finals Teams from 1960-present 1965 Lakers - 49-31 - 80 game season 1977 Blazers - 49-33 2003 Nets - 49-33 - the last sub-50 team to make the NBA Finals 1964 Warriors - 48-32 - 80 game season 1969 Celtics - 48-34 1972 Knicks - 48-34 1975 Warriors - 48-34 1978 Sonics - 47-35 1995 Rockets - 47-35 1970 Lakers - 46-36 1966 Lakers - 45-35 - 80 game season 1967 Warriors - 44-37 - 81 game season 1978 Bullets - 44-38 1999 Knicks - 44-38 - win% adjusted for 82 games (27-23) 1971 Bullets - 42-40 1976 Suns - 42-40 1981 Rockets - 40-42 - only losing Finals team since 1959 70’s was 💩💩💩💩
They also conveniently omit the first 6 or 7 years of his career was before the merge of NBA and ABA where he wasn't facing all of the top talent in the country. But they knock Mike for 4 expansion teams in the 90s. But Orlando Miami and Charlotte were actually good early.
That's another one of their weightless criticisms.It's like they think we didn't or couldn't see the 'bottom feeder' teams in the nba since MJ retired.Bad teams get roasted every year on TNT,so they've existed up til now too,lol. But the difference is that nobody ever uses the existence of bad teams in the nba to say that's why Kareem or Lebron or Steph shouldn't be ranked as high as people rank em.
Less team means less players which means only top tier players make the league...When you add expansion teams, you have many players who normally would be in the G-League, now in the NBA
@@truthiscensored ... The existence of expansion teams changes nothing about MJ's goat status. He's the best & most complete player ever whether there were expansion team's or not.
@@ijamorris3449 ... It's beyond ridiculous.And the best part is that their 'criticisms' of MJ proves he is the Goat...don't even have to name or use any of his accolade/accomplishment's anymore.🙂
Yes. There are so many reasons that get glossed over when talking about Kareem. Frankly, the main reason he's been catapulted above Russell and Wilt (for a number of people), is because of Isiah Thomas using him as a Trojan Horse, to help (later on) stabilize his case that LeBron is greater than Jordan. This all started with Isiah on Open Court. The moment he did it, I knew what he was doing. Oh, and since LeBron is now the All Time leading scorer, passing Kareem, it's LeBron as the greatest of all time; which is all b.s. Here are the reasons why Kareem (IMO) isn't the greatest: - Everything mentioned in the video (great job); winning an MVP when you miss the playoffs? - The talent pool of the '70s was split. Frankly, his peak (not his prime) overlapped with the ABA, from '69-'76. There are a number of really good C and PF/C types over in the ABA, and the NBA's talent pool was watered-down to a point. - The peak/prime of his career was the '70s. He was the league's most important player. He was the best center playing in a "center's league", probably at the height of it being a center's league. Of course he's going to be racking-up MVPs. Who's his real challenger over that period of time? Wilt's gone early enough, and Walton was always injured. Jerry West had written more than once, that he thought that Kareem was just out there, going through the motions; he was his coach during that period! - Tape delay in '80. I mean, he's (supposedly) the face of basketball, and the league's ratings sucked. The Lakers by the late '70s had a talented enough roster, yet were playing some pretty listless basketball. You need Magic and Bird to enter into the equation, to help SAVE basketball. Also, how are the Supersonics making it to back-to-back (with Sikma!) Finals vs Washington? - A great argument can be made that Dr. J was the face of basketball in the '70s, and he played his basketball in an inferior league. Dr. J was more important to the '70s, than Kareem was. - Kareem was being a bit of a GM when he first got to the Lakers, when they cut Happy Hairston in training camp; he led the NBA in rebounding rate in '75 and he was a pretty good defender/help defender, who could do the dirty stuff at PF. Kareem had a grudge vs Hairston going back to a dustup they had a few years prior to that; during the Lakers +30 game winning streak (when Kareem was with the Bucks). He's a jerk, frankly. - Isiah Thomas - as color commentator on NBC in the '90s - had said MANY TIMES, that MJ was the greatest player ever. Now, he's allowed to change his mind. Sure. Everyone can change their mind. But I'm not buying it coming from him. Kareem's career ended in '89, and if you thought he was the greatest ever, I don't see how a few/several years later, you already know that MJ was greater; likely even before he won some stupid qualifier like winning his 5th or 6th title. When you see the best, experience it, you KNOW who the best is. You could also make an argument that Isiah was taking a bit of a dig at Magic (and Jordan) when he put Kareem at the top. - He wanted out of Milwaukee. This wasn't a trend at the time. It would set a bad precedence going forward. - Has anyone ever said that Moses Malone was a greater center than Kareem? Because he won 3 MVPs, that (arguably) overlap with Kareem's extended prime; 2 of which came while playing in the same conference. Had Karl Malone passed Kareem in All Time points, I doubt too many people would have said that Karl Malone is/was the greatest scorer of All Time. Rather, he has the record, and that's that. He was RIGHT THERE in '04 to grab it. LeBron and Kareem are similar. The two most hyped players of their era. They both delivered. And with that, both of them did no favors to the league's ratings. LeBron in '20, on the LAKERS (the LAKERS are must see TV btw), during "THE PANDEMIC" when everyone must stay home, just before TH-cam 10-minute game highlights blow up (for context), registers the lowest Finals' ratings since '78-'79! Even worse than the tape-delayed '80s finals! I would also imagine that a GREAT number of people that tuned-in to watch the Finals when he was with Miami, Cleveland, and the few watched the Lakers, were in large part wanting to see LeBron lose, and how he'd react to the losing. Neither LeBron or Kareem saved basketball, or elevated it to a higher level; in the fan's eyes. If they did, the ratings would reflect that. People loved watching Magic vs Bird, and Jordan. I don't care about counting stats and longevity. They're lame qualifiers that people get too wrapped up in these days. Did you capture the hearts and minds of the majority of those watching you? That should matter more. As great as Kareem was, he was also a bit of a pretender.
Wow! You wrote a lot and read most of it....and I'm nodding in agreement For the first time someone agrees that to be a GOAT isn't about stats and trophies but rather embodiment of the game and how well carried and grew the game everywhere you went.
Criteria for GOAT; MUST be in the conversation of greatest high school player ever MUST be in the conversation of greatest college player ever MUST be in the conversation of greatest professional player ever MUST have won titles on all three levels MUST be stellar on both sides of the ball MUST have at least five league MVP awards.. This equates to only one player… KAREEM ABDUL JABBAR! Case closed!!! People respond to styles that titillate. The Jordan’s and Kobe’s always have the ball in their hands. This makes it easier to dictate every aspect of the game…same with Bird and Magic. Kareem has to work to get the ball and still held the all time scoring record. No way in the world can you gloss over this man’s accomplishments. Kareem is GOAT!
My top three are MJ , Wilt and Kareem. In no particular order. I enjoy watching Jordan the most. Next group is Magic, Bird, Russell, and maybe LeBron. Then there is a group of another half dozen or so.
I don't know about that. Kareem was transitioning over to a new team. Sometimes it takes time to get an engine to work properly. It takes the right tuning to get it running properly. I think this was the case with Kareem.
@@user-er3ri6sc3j, he was on the Scott Van Pelt show. Kareem looked very comfortable talking about Bruce Lee. Van Pelt ask Kareem about a few different subjects as well as the 30 For 30 episode "Be Water". Kareem also spoke to Byron Scott on his podcast about Bruce Lee.
2 3peats w/6 Finals' MVP is hard 2 beat. 10 Scoring Titles, 3 Steals Title, DPOY, 9 Defense 1st Teams. MJ broke foot 2nd yr and played 27 games after 1st retirement. He accomplished that in 13yrs as a Bull. That's DOMINANCE!!!
Scratch the 3 peats because they are team achievements not individual, Yes 10 scoring titles, great but... steals thats good too but 2 things 1) they didn't start counting steals until 1973 and Magic lead the league in steals twice which tells you something because Magic isn't good as a defender. DPOY only started in 1983 and its funny no one speaks of Sidney Moncrief who won it two years in a row and was a SG. Defense teams ok. I know of another player that was dominant
@grosskopf2779 the problem with ur assessment is that u didn't use someone that was dominant on both sides of the ball. And the 2 3peats matter cause it shows how ge led 2 different teams, meaning rosters, to chips.
@@spideyaes849 Baloney. If that’s the case where he led teams to Championships then why did he wait until the 90s to do it. He was in the league 6 years. Championships are a TEAM achievement not individual. For the 2 nd peat Rodman is the Unsung hero for the Bulls.
@grosskopf2779 the Bulls had to get rid of the druggies and alcoholics. Then get Home Grown players. Not recruit All-Stars to play. LBJ took 8yrs, moving and recruitment. Isaiah Thomas had Young Rodman and only won 2 in a row. Ur making my argument. MJ played 82 games 9x out of 15. 2 of those were injury and retirement, and still played both sides of the ball.
@@spideyaes849 I'm not making your argument and I could care less about Lebron. People keep comparing the two, people who really know basketball knows that they are two totally different players, Bulls had to get rid of the druggies and alcoholics? But MJ is the GOAT he could overcome those things because he is who he is and do it all both sides of the ball, just like the 90s he could have done it in the 80s
The whole GOAT debate really is kind of dumb because basketball is a 5 man sport. The argument should be for who's the greatest at each position. Jordan is clearly the greatest shooting guard in history and Lebron is right up there with Bird (although I would take Bird over him because he's just a better overall player). Kareem, Shaq, Wilt and Hakeem all are right up there for consideration as the best center. You can't really argue with saying Kareem is the best center in history.
One of the most sane responses I've heard. You can't, or shouldn't compare a PG to a center, or a SG to a power forward. Different positions with different skill sets...It make no sense. People only talk about the six chips Jordan has and never mention he got bounced from the playoff 6 consecutive years as well. For some reason that doesn't count. As you said, BB is a TEAM game...
@AfrikanLifestyle Jordan 1st 6 yrs are well documented. Certain players are clearly better than others regardless of position. This is why there are All-Star and All-NBA selections.
Kareem's rings are won with other GOAT's Big O and Magic. They didn't win rings without Kareem. Of course, if rings really mattered for GOAT discussions Sam Jones is the second greatest of all time. Kareem could not regularly create his own scoring opportunities but is that a requirement to be part of the conversation. Bill Russell could not generate enough offense to be dominant on his own.
@@theetruth8626 Oscar at the end of his career was still one of the best guards in the league. Capable of getting Kareem the ball in good position. Wilt was such a great rebounder he could generate offense without a good point guard, but not sure there's another big who could.
@@GojoRamsay888 My point is there's a counter argument to every potential GOAT. If you think Rings matter a lot there sits Sam Jones at number two all-time. In defense of Jones, the Celtics always wanted him to take the shot with the game on the line. He's the difference maker in many if not most of those title runs.
@grosskopf2779 Think about this. During the 80s, Kareem's most successful decade. The GOAT debate was between Bird and Magic, his own teammate! Not saying Kareem wasnt an ATG, but hes not in the GOAT convo in my opinion. You cant just count his MVPS and rings without context.
@@semaj06 Huh? The GOAT debate as I recall didn't start until 1987-88 and they started talking about MJ. That talk didn't happen. Kareem is easily in the conversation. Without context?? What exactly is the context that you are looking for? Points, rebounds, blocks, what?
Hmm....being able to single-handedly lift two teams, who would have been historically bad without you, almost into the playoffs, and even winning MVP in one of those years -- as you said, the only player ever to accomplish this -- is only a further testament to your greatness... Do the math: Greatest high school player on greatest high school team ever + Greatest college player on greatest college team ever + Greatest NBA player on one of greatest NBA dynasties ever = GOAT 🏀🐐
Winning the MVP and not even making the playoffs is wild. Kareem was in LA for a couple of years and didn’t win. People always say MJ won because of Pip, which isn’t true. But this is the true case of Kareem winning because of Magic.
@@o-g-ob4399 Well being as though Pippen was playing with the Bulls when they were losing to the Pistons is one thing. Secondly, Pip wasn’t a starter or even make All Rookie team… stop acting like he came into the league a star. And if you know it’s a team game then you would know Pistons were a better team. Just like Isiah and the pistons were getting bounced and swept early in his career. However, MJ bounced and swept pistons emphatically
You're out of your mind. Jordan got bounced out of the playoffs for 6 consecutive years, SIX years straight before Pippen and other supporting cast members arrived. Basketball is a team sport. And all the Jordan lovers like to give Jordan ALL the credit for winning 6 chips but none of the blame for losing. Again, this shows how much BB is a team sport, and, no matter how good you are, 1 player is not beating 5...Bron is the same way, he gets ALL the credit when his teams win but none of the blame when they lose...
@@AfrikanLifestyle First you need to do some research before sounding stupid. MJ was drafted in 84… Pippen was drafted in 87. So Pippen was there and they still lost. The team got better but Pippen didn’t come into the league a star like Magic did. And even though MJ lost in playoffs, he still made it unlike Kareem. Lastly, Magic 1st year the lakers won and he was MVP… Pippen didn’t even make the allstar team until 4 years after being drafted. So yeah Magic came in the league a star. Try again!
do you even understand that there is Pat Riley, James Worthy ,Jamaal Wilkes,Norm Nixon,Bob Mcadoo ans many others like Cooper and Scott except Magic in the most stacked super team of all times and still if Dr J had a decent center they could have lost to the Sixers in both 80 and 82,never mind not so certain to reach the finals if they went against the Celtics in the conference finals..those years all 3 teams were almost equally good by a very thin margin and that was the best competition ever in the Nba by far including the Bucks.The Lakers though had the deepest team and a lot of top scorers to rely on!
A _LOT_ of people have Lebron as their number #2 or #1. I will _NEVER_ be able to do that. Until he at least finishes even in the Finals, he will never get past MJ or Kareem in my book. He should have won that chip in 2011. MJ, Kareem, Larry Legend, Timmy, etc would have found a way to win that series. Especially with a team like the Heat.
@@theetruth8626 He didn't win enough when it mattered the most compared to greats like MJ, Kareem, Lebron, Larry Legend, Magic Johnson, Timmy, Bill Russell, etc. And he's only got 4 MVPs compared to MJ and Kareem's 5/6. You're a pretty crazy dude if you don't have him in your all-time top 10 list though.
@@gseric4721 WILT faced better competition than those other guys you can say a guy is better when they haven't beaten any dynasties beating a mediocre team vs a dynasty it's like beating a Jr high team vs another player beating a h.s team that's what y'all doing when u trying to use that phrase as justification You gotta actually look at the competition that these players was facing WILT was battling the greatest dynasty in NBA history and WILT did beat them when nobody else could
@@theetruth8626 Because Magic Johnson had one of the greatest basketball players in the history of the National Basketball Association. And it was that same man that dethroned Wilt as the greatest player in the League at that time. If that isn't irony, then I don't know what is. Larry Bird still managed to get 1 more chip than WIlt, and it would have been 4 or 5 if it weren't for that back injury.
You make a complicated subject matter come alive. I am 72 and have seen all the greats. My opinion is that the game is won or lost in the paint. Kareem controlled more aspects of the game than Jordan.
thats why jordan is the goat.because he debunked all the stereotypes.he impacted the game in a way that stats cant show.into the paint you have blocks,rebounds etc but paint is a very small area of the court.kareem was useless out of that area in offense and defense.jordans impact was full court in ways that stats cant capture.there is a reason bulls won 6 without having a dominant great center and his name is michael jordan.a terror on offense and defense.
You have a valid point for his era. However, The rules at the time favored his style. It was a hands off era and the 3 pointer spread the floor. Wilt Russel, Unseld and played in an era that was dominated by centers that would bloody Jordan if he drove to the basket. At that time, most ball was played in the half court and the floor was not spread out, making it more congested in the middle. He would not have been the GOAT in that era.
@@edwinjones1000 jordan grow up without 3 point line.even in most if not all his college years there was not a 3 point line and thats why his game involved around midrange and driving into the rim. definitely the rules didnt benefit jordans game and there is a reason why teams development at that time was around a dominant center and strong front court.portland skipped jordan in draft because they wanted to get a center and they got sam bowie. i dont think that 50-60s had bigger and better overall centers than what jordan had to face.bill russell was 6'10 and he was 1-2 inches taller than the average center at that era.jordan was attacking shaq into the rim,i dont think that 6'9 centers will make him have second thoughts on going into the rim. bill russell era was one of the most fast paced eras in the history of the nba.the game was way less positional and tactical what it was during late 80s and 90s.jordan would have a lot more opportunities in open court plays than what he had in his era. for the end many people have wrong perspective of jordans game because of many highlights with dunks and layups. jordans game was not limited in going into the rim.he was one of the best midrange shooters and one of the best if not the best midrange player of all time.
@@juventinos81the dominant center thing had been coming to an end b4 Jordan won. Jordan won his first championship in 91. Isiah Thomas had just came off of run of 5 conference finals, 3 finals appearances and b2b championships without a dominant center(the Pistons also ran a lot of 3 guard lineups/rotations). Drexler led his team to the finals 2x in 3 years with Kevin Duckworth as his center. The Lakers won with an aging and slow Kareem in 88...B4 the Bulls ascension the last team to win with a dominant big man was the Celtics in 86 with Robert Parrish and he wasn't the focal point of the offense. The last real dominant big man to win it was Moses Malone in 83. The league was already in transition, Jordan was right place, person,and time.
I think it hurts his case a little but his team always won more games with him than they did without him. He was never accused of resting on defense or stat padding. Only winning championships with Oscar and Magic hurts his goat argument more than his struggles carrying a terrible team to playoff contention.
Prime Kareem didn’t win a ring for 9 years in the ‘70s until Magic joined the Lakers. Magic saved Kareem’s legacy, honestly. He’s a top 5 but not GOAT. Some players were able to carry their teams like MJ, LeBron, Olajuwon to playoffs… but I don’t think Kareem could.
@@oceanlives4915 …Did Kareem or Wilt get physically knocked down and hit every time they played? Did they experience anything like Jordan Rules? Of course NOT. Jordan had to muscle up to overcome the adversity. NBA didn’t change the rules so they couldn’t do use their brutal tactics on Jordan. Wilt was his era’s Shaq, overpowering. Players feared him, more than the other way around. Prime Kareem was much better than those around him in the 70s. He didn’t dominate like he should have though. Go study up on basketball history thoroughly.
We give too much credit to individuals for what is a team sport. No one has ever won a championship on his own. Not Jordan and certainly not Lebron. Surrounding Jordan with quality players and the triangle offense (not to mention their crazy defense) were the reasons they won. Jordan was the best player in the league at the time. . .regardless of whether or not the team won. Isiah Thomas recently said that he beat Jordan head to head. No. . .the Pistons were better than the Bulls until they weren't. It's not tennis. Kareem is like Tim Duncan: because he's not flashy, people forget how dominant he was.
Great video. Absolutely it disqualifies him especially with the team he had. Lucious Allen, Cazy Russel and Gail Goodrich. Then a couple years later he get Nixon, Dantley and Silk Wilks and lost in the 1st round. Definitely he's disqualified.
I say all the time I don't care what Kareem did when he was in high school as a pro every time he won he had one the greatest big man HOF point guards of all time of that era either Big O or Magic. People love to point out how Pip was always there with Jordan and how LeBroom basically played with a plethora of All Stars whenever the Queen won rings people forget Kareem had plenty of help too it wasn't just him hookshoting over players all night.
@@ottolevine978 most definitely very possible because he's the greatest facilitator imo but probably not 5 chips. It's just like with LeBron you put great players around a facilitator their going to win they're also going to have their fair share of losses in the Finals too. It's the killers like MJ (0 L's) Bird (2 L's) and Kobe (2 L's) who don't have as many losses in the Finals or none at all.
I am a MJ fan Kareem, MJ , Kobe and you can argue Wilt those 4 guys are the up class that the media should be debating. All 4 men 2way players led and dominated their eras and so this makes more sense
I find it hilarious that the phrase "MJ got 1-9 before Pippen showed up" It's not like Pippen was playing at a high level right out of the gate, and he wasn't even a starter on that weak Bulls team. Pippen played 10p - 5r - 2a at his 1st playoff series, a virtually compliant role player performance. To win the first round, Jordan needed to play 45p - 5r - 5a on 56% shooting from the field. In pippen`s 3years in the chicago, his playoff stats are 14.5p - 6.9r - 4.1a - 1.5s - 1.0b That's great. Of course, not for a great second option, but a great third option. During the same time period, Jordan had 35.8p - 7.1r - 6.7a - 2.6s - 0.9b Pippen is a great player, but people have to realize that it took him almost four years to become the Pippen we know.
Big men needed good guards to get the ball to them in that era. Russel, Wilt, they all had dominant guard play too when winning championships. It's not like the era today where big men can bring the ball up and take threes.
Rick Barry made some good points. I think he was skeptical about comparing eras. His bigger point is that you should have all time players listed by POSITION. Kareem, LeBron and MJ all played different positions. This makes more sense if you going to combine eras.
the reason is understanding that comment section legacies and debates are build on echo chamber nonsense and not real analysis of all the variables at play..simply put Kareem failed hard in the same spirit others failed hard also in 78/79 with Wilkes,Nixon and Dandley 3 multiple all star team mates and frequent 20 ppg scorers and if magic didnt came along or the Sixers had a Center he would have way less rings..does that change his legacy?..in my eyes no, in the eyes of the people stack in the rings argument for sure!
Let's dive even deeper into your analysis of the 1975-1976 season. The 1975 Lakers went 30-52. Kareem joined that team the following season and improved the record by 10 games. Here's the thing. The team that went 30-52 was not the same team he joined. He replaced 2 good players and 2 rookies who were picks #2 and #8 in the draft. He brought a 3rd string Center with him from the Bucks. Brian Winters & Elmore Smith combined for 53.9 minutes, 22.6 points, 12.9 rebounds, 4.9 assists, 2.2 steals, and 3.2 blocks in 1974-1975. They took those stats with them to the 1976 Bucks. Without those two guys where would that team be? That 1974-1975 Lakers team doesn't win anywhere near 30 out 82 games. More like 6-76 or 12-70 without Winters and Smith. So the "10 game improvement" was more like 28 or 34 additional wins. ---------------------------------------------------------------- Kareem and Jordan both joined the next to last place team as rookies. 1969 Bucks 27-55 Drafted Kareem 1970 Bucks 56-26 Lost in the Eastern Division Finals to Eventual Champion Knicks 4-1. Kareem statistically outplayed the 1970 regular season MVP and Finals MVP Willis Reed 1971 Bucks Champions 1984 Bulls 27-55 Drafted Jordan 1985 Bulls 38-44 Lost in the first round to Milwaukee Bucks 3-1. Jordan was outscored by Terry Cummings of the Bucks. 1986 Bulls 30-52 Jordan missed most of the season. Lost 3-0 to the eventual Champion Celtics in the 1st Round 1987 Bulls 40-42 Lost in the 1st round to the Runner Up Celtics 3-0 No Finals Appearance until 1991 which was Jordan's 1st Championship Despite 2 long "retirement" breaks, Jordan's knees were shot at age 40. The Eastern Conference was very weak compared to the West and yet the Wizards never made it to the playoffs. They could not finish 8th either season to qualify. 10th in 2002. Tied for 9th in 2003. Longevity: Jordan played 14.25 seasons over 19 years. Started at 21. Retired at 40. Kareem played 20 seasons in a row. Started at 22. Retired at 42.
You can't be the GOAT if you can't put butts in the seats and the NBA nearly bankrupts on your watch. Plus, he played several years where the competition was divided with the ABA.
Considering the 70’s were the “weakest era”, he should’ve been winning championships along with winning mvps. It was only until magic arrived that he won more chips and also side note, they say magic and bird saved the league, why isn’t Kareem in that convo 🤔
Technically the 70s were the most competitive era in basketball. No one won back to back and there was the most amount of champions in a decade. But go off son
@@Ant-je5vu nba had a marketing problem no doubt but which one wound up being absorbed? Doesn't change iit being the most balanced decade. People barely watched the Spurs. Doesn't take away them being a dynasty and TD a top 10 player.
They master the Basic part of the game I take the any years over these bums they mentality weak and crying all the time about 82 games is to much no defense Load management . You make the game great the game don't make you great
No, these criticisms are misplaced. Fact is, no matter how great the player, if **80%** (four of the five) are not contributing at a high enough level, that one great player cannot get it done. Jordan lost the majority of his 60 point games. Wilt lost all but one of his 70 point games. What more were they supposed to do to win those games? The fact that they HAD to score so much to try to win those games reflects a weak team other than them. The common headline in Jordan's early years was 'Bulls lose despite Jordan's 37 points.' He couldn't get his teams to even .500 (his first three years) until he got better teammates. A team sport requires a good enough TEAM. Generally in the NBA, that meant two all-star level players and another player who was just below that level who could get you 20+ points fairly regularly.
Great narrative. I dont think the 2 non playoff seasons should disqualify from the GOAT bebate but does make him not the GOAT over MJ who made playoffs every year with Bulls with some crappy teams and no other All Star help. MJ ❤4ever the GOAT periodt
Criteria for GOAT; MUST be in the conversation of greatest high school player ever MUST be in the conversation of greatest college player ever MUST be in the conversation of greatest professional player ever MUST have won titles on all three levels MUST be stellar on both sides of the ball MUST have won at least five league MVP awards This equates to only one player…KAREEM ABDUL JABBAR!
I look at it as how they have chosen to market the NBA: mythologize the current/recent players at the expense of the past. And even worse, legislate changes to make it easier for the current batch of players. Defensive three in the key, crazy interpretations of traveling, remove hand-checking, all with the intent to increase scoring and make it easier on offense. And top it off with whatever else (legal and illegal) players are putting in their bodies nowadays. I was a Celtics fan, and let me say this: no one had a better basketball career than Kareem. He might have been the best player in the world when he was a freshman at UCLA. So what was the real difference? Kareem wasn't a media darling and had something to say other than selling shoes or himself.
This is very simple to solve who has the most impact on that basketball court off their skill set not whos the most entertaining player this ain't dancing its basketball not who needs the most talent surrounding them just to compete at the level of those dominant players alone
The following players were amongst the best of the 1970s, but spent a good amount of time in the ABA during that timespan, leaving a much weaker and watered down NBA for other players to compete in. Rick Barry - 1968/69 - 1971/72, did not play in 1967/68 Artis Gilmore - 1971/72 - 1975/76 Billy Cunningham - 1972/73 - 1973/74 George Gervin - 1972/73 - 1975/76 Julius Erving - 1971/72 - 1975/76 David Thompson - 1975/76 This would be akin to Jordan competing in a league without Isiah, Magic, Drexler, Barkley, Payton, Stockton or Malone for a large chunk of his career, except for the fact that Jordan's group of competition was of far higher quality overall to begin with. The 1970s had a severe dearth of quality NBA competition to begin with, and having to compete with the ABA weakened it even further I like Kareem and I got him over Bron.. but not over Mj
Could you imagine a Prime Olajuwon in the 70s! Or even today Kareem was great but best Center goes to Hakeem not Kareem especially considering if Hakeem had the players Kareem had 😮
Players "winning" championships are in large part dependent on their team. If a great player is on a great team with competent management, coaching etc. they will win e.g, IF MJ WAS PLAYING TODAY WITH THE SAME SKILL SET HE HAD BEFORE BUT WAS PLAYING FOR THE CHARLOTTE HORNETS THERE WOULD BE NO 3PEAT OR EVEN ONE CHAMPIONSHIP; BUT ON THE OTHER HAND IF HE WERE PLAYING FOR THE WARRIORS (A COMPETENT TEAM) THINGS WOULD BE DIFFERENT.
im going off your commentary on this video in order. so he won his 3rd mvp in 5 season yet bird won 3 straight, does that make bird better then kareem?. he was injured by breaking his hand and played but didnt make the playoffs, jordan in the 85-86 season broke his foot and missed 64 games, he returned to play the last 15 games against the teams wishes and helped chicago make it to the playoffs. who would you say helped the team more? that should help the discussion more.
Kareem forgot to mention that an old Wilt who couldn't hit free throws and win championships, outplayed him during some of their matchups. Jordan would never have allowed that.
The Lakers also lost to Seattle first round in 78 and 79(4 - 1) regardless to the fact that they had Nixon,Dantley and Wilkes! they won 5 titles but they added Magic,Worthy,Mcadoo,Cooper and Scott..that was a very very stacked super team throughout the decade and they also had Riley..so its more than certain that if Kareem had stayed with the Bucks he would have been a one ring player and even that with Oscar..does that diminish his skills on a personal level..absolutely not..the rings argument is the biggest crap argument of all times because there are so many variables at play that no one can win rings because he is so dominant by him self period!
@@jay5jay because everyone wants to try to sell the most entertaining players on the same level as the most dominant players when that's the biggest false delusion ever created see those same people runs from the facts of how can you be better than another player when you needs other superstars surrounding them just to equal the impact of those other dominant players alone how can you be better than a player when you can't do what they can do
Kareem is better and more valuable than Lebron. His sky hook was an unstoppable and he was an excellent teammate who only played for 2 teams! Incredible teammate, respected his coaches, his competitors, and was an above avg freethrow shooter. Lebron has jumped ship 2 times and runs the Lakers!! His points arent legit like Kareem's were! He travels, carries, flops, etc! How many nights does Lebron take off? Kareem hardly ever missed games. They traveled on commercial planes and Kareem played through migraine headaches! Kareem won 3 NCAA titles and they banned dunking because of him! There is no comparison in my book!
I will let you rant on and on about not being able to find your way out, without having a Oscar Robinson type of player It's quite funny how you feel about Michael Jordan and how stand up for the reasons you started losing. By the way Michael Jordan played with a broken wrist and used his other hand to score the ball. You don't hear him complain about losing , because he doesn't do anything that he wouldn't do himself. He carries himself like a man No excuses made period. And we do respect Karreem. Like Kobe Bryant, Tim Duncan, and many others
This is what Ive been saying that Karrem is overrated af! In the 80s when he won 5 of his 6 rings. No one was talking about him being thr GOAT. It was between Magic, his own teammate, and Bird. Then MJ eclipsed them all.
NOPE. Those 2 season are NOT what disqualifies him as the Goat. What actually disqualifies him as the goat is that even tho he won the MVP again in 1980. He was actually never the true alpha of those showtime lakers teams. Those were magics teams. And Magic proved it in his first year by winning finals MVP taking over for him at center in game 6. What kinda all time superstar team leader has their team immediately win 60+ games and make the finals the in the 2 years after he retired? If they was really the main one responsible how does their team get better after their leave? If your going to be the true goat you have to be the alpha on your team for at least more than 1 championship If you’re going to be the goat you have to win get more than 1 championship in your prime and your team is winning 59+ games with Oscar Robinson for 4 straight seasons. All be it an older Oscar who was playing sidekick but still definitely a good enough sidekick. But what does that say about Kareem when Oscar was the clear sidekick and still averaging the same amount of points as he did later on with showtime during an era? If your going to be the goat you have to make more than just 2 finals appearances in what is unanimously considered the weakest era in NBA history when half the best players in the world were in the ABA. An era in which you dominated and literally won half of the daceds MVPs!! If your going to be the goat you have to at the very least establish yourself as the clear cut number 2 most valuable player to a dynasty and win more than just the same amount of finals MVPs and average more than just 2 rebounds more than James Worthy during those showtime years. Or at the very least even average more points in the same minutes!!!! If your going to be the goat you have to at least have your best seasons without a top 3-4 PG of all time yield more than 56 wins and 53 wins with just 1 conference championship appearances. Dr J put up 5x 50+ win seasons before he ever paired up with Mosses. Including 3x 58+ win seasons and 2 finals appearances with the same amount of hall of fame teammates and even less all star appearances in total on his team than Kareem’s 70s Lakers!! Patrick Ewing led 7x 50+ win teams and a 60 win team with 0 other hall of famers and made multiple conference championships Charles Barkley led 3x 56+ win teams with 0 hall of famers and made multiple conference championships. Hakeem only played with 1 other all star before winning his 2nd title with an old Clyde Drexler and won 50+ games 4x before that and made multiple finals and even won 1. Hell Even Pippen managed to win 55+ games in his first year without Jordan. Carrying your team to 50+ wins for a season or two isn’t special enough to cement yourself as a top 5 player ever. It’s not enough to just be a big reason your team wins games. Or even just a big reason you win championships. You have to be THE reason your team wins championships! Where talking about the goat convo for crying out loud. There’s levels to this. We don’t give Scottie Pippen the same amount of credit for those 6 championships as we do MJ. We don’t give Kobe the same amount of credit for his first 3 championships with Shaq as we do for his last 2 with Gasol. We don’t give Dwayne Wade the same amount of credit as we do for his 2 championships with Lebron as we do for his one with Shaq. We just simply do not give guys that play 2nd fittle the same amount of credit as the true number 1 on championship teams. Kareem is probably the greatest “individual” player of all time. But he was never a true alpha and never a true leader. And those things are just way too important in a team game like basketball. Especially when talking about the GOAT. Look all respect to Kareem cuz I’d still take him over Wilt all time any day of the week. But when I remember his career I think of his 6 MVPs before I do his 6 rings. And I think of him as one of the greatest scorers and rim protectors of all time before I do any of his insane accolades. Every single top 10 player of all time has led their team to MULTIPLE championships as the top dog. EXCEPT Kareem!!! I don’t wanna be known as a Kareem hater for having him so low on my top 10 list. But if your going to be a consensus top 5 Mount Rushmore player you at the very least need to have a real case to be the goat. And actually looking at the context of his career and past his incredible resume. He clearly doesn’t.
The division were put in to reduce travel. The NBA in the 1970's isn't the billion dollar industry it is today. Travel was expensive. You played your division more games and to make it more competitive, they put a division champ and a playoff birth in playoff birth in place if you win.. Also, the Lakers had a loosing record to that " sorry" Milwaukee team you speak off!
I tire of the goat discussion. As a basketball purest, I appreciate players with the most cumulative contribution. Jordan and Dr J were flashy entertainers. Kareem, Malone, LeBron were better all round players with consistency and dedication. They will always get the nod from me. Butts in the seats is nice for the capitalists, but hard work, humility and teamwork will shine over pure gifted talent and showmanship. I'm not saying Jordan wasn't a beast but his choices, attitude and obvious advantages given to him because of his ability to make people money take him out of the top for me.
MJ being an entertainer? 50% from the field career 30ppg, 10 scoring titles, 9X all defense, 5 regular season MVPs and 6 FMVP??......huh, that's a weird way of describing a flashy entertainer :/
Ridiculous...Of course not. Silly silly stuff. Actually it strengthens his case for being the GOAT because he carried a Laker team that was loaded with old vets or second rate players who couldn't really play that well. No disrespect. Can you name another player on those Laker teams? I can. Don Ford (who the Lakers would eventually trade to the Cavs for the draft pick that ended up being James Worthy)? CJ Kupec, Stu Lantz who was already ready to retire, a rickety Cazzie Russell, Walt Wesley!!!! Lucius Allen and Gail Goodrich were probably his best supporting teammates. They had Corky Calhoun!!! You have to remember, the Lakers traded all their best players to get Kareem!! Elmore Smith was a defensive master. Brian Winters went on to become an all-star, David Meyers and Junior Bridgeman both made names for themselves. The following year, they had the best record in the league with the likes of Tom Abernathy, Bo Lamar, Earl Tatum, Don Chaney and many of the same players from the previous year. They were eventually swept by Portland in the Semis by an overpowering Portland team. Kareem deserves credit for carrying that team as far as he did to the best record in the league and to the conference finals. He's the GOAT.....he knows it, Jordan knows it, and LeBron knows it.
Kareem is without a doubt one of the greatest player of all time but in 5 of those ships Magic was the best player,he is like Lebron longevity numbers,MJ have more trophies in way less season
Kareem was the FMVP in 1985 and was voted the 1980 FMVP AFTER Magic's great game 6 but because Kareem was not present, the voters were asked to change their votes so Magic would get the award. This is all covered in the book "Kareem" pages 140-141. Magic was not the best player in all of his 5 championships. Kareem was also the FMVP in 1971 with the Bucks.
Kareem did enough to be the greatest, before Jordan he was the GOAT, the media Need to stop this Lebron debate, he is one of the biggest losers, Top 2 is Jordan and Kareem, Y'all Who thinks that Lebron surpassed him is Crazy
Interesting because if Jordan had the same Playoffs rules as Kareem in the 1970's Jordan don't even make the playoffs before Scottie Pippen. The Bulls were literally the 8th seed when they were facing Boston. If only 10 teams made the NBA playoffs in the 1980's the Bulls don't make it...before Pippen So what's your point again???
They will never be another skyhook the way Kareem Abdul-Jabbar threw
it
with the magnificence and grace of a ballet dancer
Lebron couldn’t even make playoffs with expanded playoff format and now the newly created play-in tournament saved him from another miss
Dude was just in the conference finals
Yeah imagine coming out of high school and taking an NBA team that won 17 games the previous season to 35, he’s supposed to take them to the playoffs🙄if only he could be like Michael Jordan and make the playoffs with a 30-35 pristine record🤡
Facts of the matter are this.. MJ made the playoffs every year as a BULL. Even his rookie "1v5" days. He missed the playoff 2x in his career at 39 and 40. And yes at 40, before the injury, the wizards were playoff bound.... Don't tell me your boy Lebron gets ANOTHER pass because he was "just old enough to be there," but he wasn't man enough to actually "play" in the NBA yet. Lebron should've been able to "1v5" his way to 1st round, too, right??
Do you think Lebron calls himself the goat while polishing his BRONZE MEDAL 🥉
@@joebuss8835 Michael Jordan made the playoffs with a 30-52 record🙄Michael Jordan also got swept 3x in the first round of the playoffs and is famous for beating 5 unremarkable teams in the weakest era in NBA history. He quit the sport twice in his prime so he always had fresh legs😂and yes didn’t make the playoffs in DC that counts, no Scottie no Phil no playoffs. Frauds don’t get medals, they get undeserved praise
@@user-cs1pi8zg1n did you see Rui hachimura and Austin reeves carry the team along with AD? The lakers won at much higher rate when Lebron was out with injury than with him in the game. Oh and did you see Lebron get blocked twice while trying to be the game hero ? Did you see him fumble a 2 hand dunk and miss a baseline layup? He was literally the worst player out there.
MJ lost to the 59 win bucs in his rookie year when he took a 27 win team into a 38 win team his first year. Name one player from the bulls team you would want. Remember the eastern conference back then was not the LEASTERN CONFERENCE.
From that point on get these real facts
The bulls only lost in playoffs either to the eventual champion or at least the eventual team that went to nba finals.
86 - lost to eventual champ Boston (67 wins)
87- lost to eastern conference champ Boston (59 wins, best in conference)
88- lost to eastern conference champ Detroit(54 wins, second in conference)
89- lost to eventual nba champs (63 wins, best in conference)
90- lost to eventual nba champs (59 wins, best in conference)
Compare that tie Lebron
2004 - missed playoffs
2005 - missed playoffs
2006 - lost to a team that didn’t make finals (Detroit)
2007- beat a 41-41 team in first round
Beat a 41-41 team in second round
Beat a 53 win team in conference finals
All junk teams in LEASTERN conference which is why they got swept when the left the JV conference to play in real nba.
2008 - lost in first round to eventual conference champ Boston
2009- lost to eventual eastern conference champ Orlando
2010- lost to eventual eastern conference champ.
Notice Lebron never lost to the best team to get knocked out of playoffs. All the teams that knocked him off were at best the SECOND BEST team but many times they were not even that.
His first 7 years in the league produced nothing..
Then he quit and ran to wade bosh and pat riley.
3011- biggest choke in nba finals ever. Look at his stats.
2012- lucky to best 22 year old James harden, 23 year old Kevin Durant and 23 year old Westbrook using their prime 27 year old bosh, 27 year old Lebron, and prime 30 year old wade.
2013 -ray Allen bailed him out on a Lebron brick to win championship
2014- gentlemen’s sweep by an old spurs team with 37 year old Duncan, 36 year old ginobli, and a young 22 year old kawhi. Lebron was not old at age 28 and bosh 28 and wade 31. They all are supposed to be prime age.
Nothing accomplished in 11 years in league to be considered greatest of all time. MJ played against competition. Lebron joined competition to win.
Jordan is the goat. Period.
far from it. high school, college, and the pros... it's kareem. he's goat.
PEOPLE QUICK TO HOLLA JORDAN WITHOUT PIPPEN BUT THEY DONT SAY BIRD WITHOUT MCHALE PARRISH MAGIC WITHOUT KAREEM RUSSELL WITHOUT HAVLICEK COUSY WILT WITHOUT WEST BAYLOR AND ON AND ON😳
Wilt without Baylor shouldn’t be mentioned. Neither of them won a championship with each other.
Lower your voice.
Or I'll lower it FOR you.
That's because you 🥜 huggers act like he beat teams 1 vs 5 and make his teammates background scenery or were just there to make the numbers even. Y'all never say that about other greats
PREACH THE GREAT GOSPEL JAMIE
EXACTLY but wht eats me out more is the fact tht the Older Heads like us knows everything you just said and still cnt be honest enuff to give MJ his Dues 😂😂😂😂, leave the Unfair BS for the Youngsters who dnt kno SHIT and if you get mixed up in the tlk with them well you teach them right from wrong, for all of a sudden they're now SILVER & BRONZE Titles in the NBA. Wen MJ made it to the Playoffs and got SWEPT he was SCRUTINIZE, he made it to the ECF and LOST he got SCRUTINIZED but it's ok for LECHOKE to make it to the NBA FINALS 10x and LOSE 6x being SWEPT 2X and he shudnt be SCRUTINIZED LOLOLOL BUT HE SHUD BE HAILED AS THE GREATEST PLAYER EVER 😂😂😂😂😂😂😂 BS LOLOL I DNT CARE WHT NO ONE HAS TO SAY, HE'S THE NBA'S BEST NO GREATEST FCKN LOSER and now after 5yrs in LA with 1 Ring y'all wanna hail him the greatest Laker ever for winning once, Not Making it to the Playoffs, Gettn knocked out in the first Round, Not Making it to the Play in Tournament and gettn SWEPT in the WCF, it's a good thing am not a LAKERS FAN. 😂😂😂😂😂
Kareem is number 2 for me. MJ is #1.
Jordan forever changed the game, and how it was played. Everyone wanted to be like Mike.
nike changed the Game & the WHOLE INDUSTRY ... mik was just the 'puppet' that wore their shoes !
@@onlytruth777 Nike did not just change the game it change peoples lives.. But mostly the Jordan shoes change the Way people play the game period!!!
kareem is number 1. high school, college and nba. kareem, bill
russell.. maybe mj or 5th or sixth.
Kareem Abdul Jabbar won in high school,college and the pros.
I think in the 70's most of us thought the Dr. J was the better player. But perhaps it's just that he was so much fun to watch.
More flashy, sure. I think there's very few people who really know the game, that really thought Dr. J was on Kareem's level.
@@Amick44 If Dr J's flash wasn't disrupting defenses and winning games, the entire league wouldn't have copied him. No one played the professional game the way Dr J did before Dr J. Now the league is built around that kind of play. There's a bit of collective amnesia regarding 70's players particularly ABA.
@@johncraig4820 no argument. But no GM would trade anyone for Kareem in the 70s. And I'm not exactly a fan of his. However, I do realize he was the supreme player of that decade. Walton stepped in for a couple of years but that was it.
Julius, along with Barry, McAdoo, Cowens are vying for 2nd place. But for sheer excitement and fan appeal, Dr J, Pistol Pete and Tiny A are the guys. Then Gervin and Skywalker Thompson mid 70s on.
@@Amick44 Kareem is basketball's past big center post play and Dr. J is basketball's future playing above the rim beating people inside and outside. Would I take Dr. J over LeBron or MJ? Well, I am not stupid but I think the difference in level of play is much less than people realize. I just remember seeing him with the red, white, and blue ball. No one played like he did at the professional level.
@@johncraig4820 I'm not going to call you stupid but your comment was made in ignorance
points per game
Jordan 30.12(#1) Lebron 27..2 (#6) Dr. J 24.16 (#24)
Assists per game
Lebron 7.33 (#24) Jordan 5.25 (#104) DR. J 4.16 (#206)
Steals per game
Jordan 2.35 (#4) Dr. J 1.96 (#17) Lebron 1.54 #76)
Rebounds per game
DR. J 8.47 (#135) Lebron 7.51 (#207) Jordan (not in the top 250)
Blocks per game
DR. J 1.67 (#45) Jordan 0.83 (#227) Lebron 0.8 (#239
FG%
Dr. J .5069 (#110) Lebron .5046(#123) Jordan .4969 (#165)
Stats don't lie. Dr J is the GOAT
Fact: It took Lebron 4 years to match the Dr. in total rebounds. Still hasn't caught him in total steals and blocks.
Fact: Dr. J did more with less than Jordan
Fact: In his prime years Dr. J was prevented from winning scoring titles by Sixers' coach, Gene Shue, who literally told him that they did not need him to score 30 points per game and cut his minutes from over 40 per game to 35 per game.
LeBron never would have the scoring record without the 3 point line. If LeBron played the same years as Kareem, he'd be well behind Kareem still because there was no 3 point line the first several years of his career. There was no going to the NBA out of high school then, and once Kareem was with the Lakers, he was one of FOUR offensive options. If Kareem was the MAIN option instead of their BEST option in a half court offense, who knows how many more points he would have scored. Plus, how many times did the Showtime Lakers score on their fast break before Kareem even made it back to the offensive side? And bringing Malone into the discussion, as good as he is, is a joke, because the whole point of the Jazz was to feed Malone as much as possible. Again, Kareem was only one of MANY offensive weapons the Showtime Lakers had. Just think how many points he would have scored if Kareem was as integral to the Showtime Laker offense as Jordan was to the early Bulls, or Malone to the Jazz or LeBron for whoever he was playing for at the time.
Malone didn't have a Worthy/Wilkes and a Byron Scott to siphon off points. I'll be honest, I haven't followed basketball that closely in LeBron's time, but I doubt he's played very many, if any seasons with teams as stacked as the Showtime Lakers were.
If Kareem had played straight out of high school, that would have been FOUR more years of him being in the NBA, in theory, anyway.
Behind MJ to bruh
AMEN!!! Kareem only made ONE 3 point field goal in his career.
No other players from 3-point era surpassed Kareem. It is a good record for Lebron.
Going to the finals is one thing. Winning the finals is a whole other thing. Lebron has SIX finals losses and 22-23 in finals games overall. Lebron is a perfect example of quantity over quality and Jordan is a perfect example of quality over quantity. I’d rather go to the finals six times and win all six of them earning FMVP for every single one rather than make it to the finals ten times and only winning four. If we are being real about it he should only have two rings because if it wasn’t for Ray Allen and Kyrie Irving he would of had two more losses to his finals résumé. Like the old heads say it doesn’t mean a thing until you have that ring. Kobe, Duncan, Shaq, Hakeem, Bird, Russell, Kareem, Magic, Curry, and many more players have way better finals records and always won more than not.
22-33
👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼
Lebron James is a team player. He involves all players on his team and makes them better because he is not a ball hog. Kobe Bryant would not pass the ball to his teammates. Labron acts as a field general, and he does what is necessary for his team to win. Jordan never won a championship until the Bulls signed Scottie Pippin, and he never won another championship after Pippin left the team.
@@maxxmabemwe4859 LeBron is a ball hog and stats proves it. He got more shot attempts and possession than Kobe who is called a "ball hog".
Floor General never milk the clock to 4 seconds then pass it to his unsuspecting teammates that could cause a turnover just like what he always do, that's why he's #1 in turnovers all-time.
@@maxxmabemwe4859no Miami rings if not for wade, bosh and ray allen and no cleaveland ring without kyrie and Kevin love. With the lakers, Anthony Davis was clearly robbed of his finals mvp. Pippen was an unproven pickup for the bulls at that time compared to all the greats that Lebron had on his teams. It’s been almost a free ride for Lebron. Look at how much time Lebron have the ball in his possession before he gives it up for not having the heart and courage to take the shot. Lakers 5 rings with Kobe proves that he is also a team player.
It's funny, that recently the Curry vs Magic debate, people will point out that the Lakers were stacked, and also had Worthy (1st overall) in '82 on top of all of that. But all of that winning in the '80s boosted Kareem's career the most. He wasn't drafted by the Lakers. Kareem was gifted playing on team that would land two 1st overall picks in 3 years, not to mention some pretty good talent around him before Magic even arrived; Nixon, Wilkes, and Dantley isn't exactly chopped liver. All that was missing was the person who could stir the drink; which wasn't Kareem.
You are absolutely correct. The only team besides Lebron that had 3 number 1 picks on the same team. Plus the number 2 in Bob McAdoo. The best super team in history.
👍🏾👍🏾👍🏾💯🔥
What about when Kareem got hurt in the 80’s finals in game six and missed game 7? Magic played all five positions and said never fear Magic is here and beat Dr.J and the 76ers. Jamaal Wilkes had a great game too. But what Magic did as a rookie is str8 spectacular that was a phenomenal performance by the Magic Man.
I believe that playing with Magic prolonged Kareem's career by about 4 years. The top 3 players who made every teammate better, always, were Bill Russell, Larry Bird, and Magic Johnson. That attribute does not show up on the stat sheet, but it is an attribute that qualifies a player to be in the GOAT conversation. In the history of the NBA, if I had the choice to draft ONE player, it would be Magic Johnson.
Of course rings and finals m.v.p.s. counts.
he missed game 6
Sure, you make a fair point, but come on man. Does that really cancel Kareems claim as the GOAT?I can say similar things about literally ever other great player, including MJ, Wilt, Kobe, Bird, Magic, or anyone else, especially Lebron (don't even get me started with Lebron). Magic was definately the best player on those 80's Lakers teams. He was younger, and he was naturally going to be the more impactful player because of being a versatille Guard, the greatest passer of all time, the quarterback of the offense, and not being limited to the post offensively. I think Kareem made up for that difference in offensive impact with his defensive ability despite not being as offensively versatille. I'm not saying he was Wilt Chamberlain defensively, but Kareem was an excellent defender when he actually put all of his effort into it. I would argue that two, or more of those Lakers championships would not have ended well for the Lakers without Kareem, especially the 1985 Finals against the Celtics where he dominated looking like the most dominant player on the court that series. Sure, Magic played Center in that 1980 game 7, and he did a phenominal job, but I don't know how it would have impacted the Lakers if he spent that entire series at that position. I think he would have done well, but the Lakers needed Magic at PG to be as effective as they were, and Kareem was a big part of that teams success as well. The Sixers didn't even expect Magic to be such a force at Center, and they probably didn't prepare for that defensively.
@@donavonhoward114 The Lakers needed Kareem when the game slowed down in a half court offense even though Magic can get in that post too. We seen Magic hit that clutch baby hook in the 87 finals against the Celtics. I’m still taking Kobe and Magic over Kareem though and yes Kareem is a all time great player too. MJ, Magic Man and Kobe are my favorite players of all times to me they gave me my moneys worth and they were must see tv 📺. Also they were box office. But if I had to pick a center I will go with Hakeem the Dream. I’ll take Kareem over Shaq too cuZ to me he played better defense.
Center is a dependent position and his performance is dependent on guard play especially in that era.
Exactly my friend. When you look at how the game was played and how to center position was played, and, the fact that Karriem very seldom had the ball in his hands more that 4-5 seconds and to score with that kind of efficiency is underrated and underappreciated. Karriem was an absolute assassin...
1976 kareem was the only man to be top 1 in every major metric. This has never been done before or after. He was statistically the best ever
Why? The following players were amongst the best of the 1970s, but spent a good amount of time in the ABA during that timespan, leaving a much weaker and watered down NBA for other players to compete in.
Rick Barry - 1968/69 - 1971/72, did not play in 1967/68
Artis Gilmore - 1971/72 - 1975/76
Billy Cunningham - 1972/73 - 1973/74
George Gervin - 1972/73 - 1975/76
Julius Erving - 1971/72 - 1975/76
David Thompson - 1975/76
This would be akin to Jordan competing in a league without Isiah, Magic, Drexler, Barkley, Payton, Stockton or Malone for a large chunk of his career, except for the fact that Jordan's group of competition was of far higher quality overall to begin with. The 1970s had a severe dearth of quality NBA competition to begin with, and having to compete with the ABA weakened it even further
The 1970s had the weakest MVP competition of any post-infancy era. The likes of Dave Cowens, Bob McAdoo, and Bill Walton won MVP in the 1970s. Bob McAdoo is the only player from an eligible decade to not make the 50 Greatest in 1996. Derrick Rose is likely the only player since 1996 who would not make the 50 Greatest List, and he has been plagued with injuries since his MVP season. The likes of Cowens, McAdoo, and Walton would certainly not sniff an MVP if they were to compete against the likes of prime Moses Malone, Magic, Bird, Jordan, Hakeem, Duncan, Shaq, Kobe, LeBron, etc.
The competition was so poor in 1976 that Kareem became the only MVP in NBA history to win the award despite missing the playoffs. When the best player in the league can't even make the playoffs, that says a lot about the quality of the league as a whole for that particular season. In fact, Kareem is the only consensus top 10 player to miss the playoffs twice in his prime, doing so in 1975 and 1976. Likewise, when the best player of that era missed the playoffs twice in his prime, that says a lot about the quality of the NBA in the 1970s as a whole.
is a statistical fact that the 1970s had the weakest team competition of any post-infancy decade. In 1973/74 and 4 consecutive seasons from 1975/76 to 1978/79, the league failed to produce even one 60-win team in those 5 seasons. For comparison, from 1980 onwards, the 2000/01 season is the only year in which the league did not produce a 60-win team; the Spurs had the best record at 58-24. The league failed to produce a 60-win team for half of the 1970s, yet this has only occurred once in 35+ seasons since then. Even in 2001, however, the Lakers had to beat 4 50+ win teams to win the title. No title team in the 1970s faced a path remotely comparable to the 2001 Lakers' stacked overall competition.
It is also worth noting that the 1970s produced 8 of the 17 sub-50 win teams to make the NBA Finals from 1960-present.
Sub-50 Win Finals Teams from 1960-present
1965 Lakers - 49-31 - 80 game season
1977 Blazers - 49-33
2003 Nets - 49-33 - the last sub-50 team to make the NBA Finals
1964 Warriors - 48-32 - 80 game season
1969 Celtics - 48-34
1972 Knicks - 48-34
1975 Warriors - 48-34
1978 Sonics - 47-35
1995 Rockets - 47-35
1970 Lakers - 46-36
1966 Lakers - 45-35 - 80 game season
1967 Warriors - 44-37 - 81 game season
1978 Bullets - 44-38
1999 Knicks - 44-38 - win% adjusted for 82 games (27-23)
1971 Bullets - 42-40
1976 Suns - 42-40
1981 Rockets - 40-42 - only losing Finals team since 1959
70’s was 💩💩💩💩
They also conveniently omit the first 6 or 7 years of his career was before the merge of NBA and ABA where he wasn't facing all of the top talent in the country. But they knock Mike for 4 expansion teams in the 90s. But Orlando Miami and Charlotte were actually good early.
That's another one of their weightless criticisms.It's like they think we didn't or couldn't see the 'bottom feeder' teams in the nba since MJ retired.Bad teams get roasted every year on TNT,so they've existed up til now too,lol.
But the difference is that nobody ever uses the existence of bad teams in the nba to say that's why Kareem or Lebron or Steph shouldn't be ranked as high as people rank em.
@@brookemcneal147 thank you!!! It's only Mike and his era that they apply certain criteria to for some reason.
Less team means less players which means only top tier players make the league...When you add expansion teams, you have many players who normally would be in the G-League, now in the NBA
@@truthiscensored ...
The existence of expansion teams changes nothing about MJ's goat status.
He's the best & most complete player ever whether there were expansion team's or not.
@@ijamorris3449 ...
It's beyond ridiculous.And the best part is that their 'criticisms' of MJ proves he is the Goat...don't even have to name or use any of his accolade/accomplishment's anymore.🙂
Yes. There are so many reasons that get glossed over when talking about Kareem. Frankly, the main reason he's been catapulted above Russell and Wilt (for a number of people), is because of Isiah Thomas using him as a Trojan Horse, to help (later on) stabilize his case that LeBron is greater than Jordan. This all started with Isiah on Open Court. The moment he did it, I knew what he was doing. Oh, and since LeBron is now the All Time leading scorer, passing Kareem, it's LeBron as the greatest of all time; which is all b.s.
Here are the reasons why Kareem (IMO) isn't the greatest:
- Everything mentioned in the video (great job); winning an MVP when you miss the playoffs?
- The talent pool of the '70s was split. Frankly, his peak (not his prime) overlapped with the ABA, from '69-'76. There are a number of really good C and PF/C types over in the ABA, and the NBA's talent pool was watered-down to a point.
- The peak/prime of his career was the '70s. He was the league's most important player. He was the best center playing in a "center's league", probably at the height of it being a center's league. Of course he's going to be racking-up MVPs. Who's his real challenger over that period of time? Wilt's gone early enough, and Walton was always injured. Jerry West had written more than once, that he thought that Kareem was just out there, going through the motions; he was his coach during that period!
- Tape delay in '80. I mean, he's (supposedly) the face of basketball, and the league's ratings sucked. The Lakers by the late '70s had a talented enough roster, yet were playing some pretty listless basketball. You need Magic and Bird to enter into the equation, to help SAVE basketball. Also, how are the Supersonics making it to back-to-back (with Sikma!) Finals vs Washington?
- A great argument can be made that Dr. J was the face of basketball in the '70s, and he played his basketball in an inferior league. Dr. J was more important to the '70s, than Kareem was.
- Kareem was being a bit of a GM when he first got to the Lakers, when they cut Happy Hairston in training camp; he led the NBA in rebounding rate in '75 and he was a pretty good defender/help defender, who could do the dirty stuff at PF. Kareem had a grudge vs Hairston going back to a dustup they had a few years prior to that; during the Lakers +30 game winning streak (when Kareem was with the Bucks). He's a jerk, frankly.
- Isiah Thomas - as color commentator on NBC in the '90s - had said MANY TIMES, that MJ was the greatest player ever. Now, he's allowed to change his mind. Sure. Everyone can change their mind. But I'm not buying it coming from him. Kareem's career ended in '89, and if you thought he was the greatest ever, I don't see how a few/several years later, you already know that MJ was greater; likely even before he won some stupid qualifier like winning his 5th or 6th title. When you see the best, experience it, you KNOW who the best is. You could also make an argument that Isiah was taking a bit of a dig at Magic (and Jordan) when he put Kareem at the top.
- He wanted out of Milwaukee. This wasn't a trend at the time. It would set a bad precedence going forward.
- Has anyone ever said that Moses Malone was a greater center than Kareem? Because he won 3 MVPs, that (arguably) overlap with Kareem's extended prime; 2 of which came while playing in the same conference.
Had Karl Malone passed Kareem in All Time points, I doubt too many people would have said that Karl Malone is/was the greatest scorer of All Time. Rather, he has the record, and that's that. He was RIGHT THERE in '04 to grab it.
LeBron and Kareem are similar. The two most hyped players of their era. They both delivered. And with that, both of them did no favors to the league's ratings. LeBron in '20, on the LAKERS (the LAKERS are must see TV btw), during "THE PANDEMIC" when everyone must stay home, just before TH-cam 10-minute game highlights blow up (for context), registers the lowest Finals' ratings since '78-'79! Even worse than the tape-delayed '80s finals! I would also imagine that a GREAT number of people that tuned-in to watch the Finals when he was with Miami, Cleveland, and the few watched the Lakers, were in large part wanting to see LeBron lose, and how he'd react to the losing.
Neither LeBron or Kareem saved basketball, or elevated it to a higher level; in the fan's eyes. If they did, the ratings would reflect that.
People loved watching Magic vs Bird, and Jordan. I don't care about counting stats and longevity. They're lame qualifiers that people get too wrapped up in these days. Did you capture the hearts and minds of the majority of those watching you? That should matter more. As great as Kareem was, he was also a bit of a pretender.
Wow! You wrote a lot and read most of it....and I'm nodding in agreement
For the first time someone agrees that to be a GOAT isn't about stats and trophies but rather embodiment of the game and how well carried and grew the game everywhere you went.
That was very well said
Criteria for GOAT;
MUST be in the conversation of greatest high school player ever
MUST be in the conversation of greatest college player ever
MUST be in the conversation of greatest professional player ever
MUST have won titles on all three levels
MUST be stellar on both sides of the ball
MUST have at least five league MVP awards..
This equates to only one player… KAREEM ABDUL JABBAR!
Case closed!!!
People respond to styles that titillate. The Jordan’s and Kobe’s always have the ball in their hands. This makes it easier to dictate every aspect of the game…same with Bird and Magic.
Kareem has to work to get the ball and still held the all time scoring record.
No way in the world can you gloss over this man’s accomplishments.
Kareem is GOAT!
@@marksheppard6498EXACTLY
So let me get this straight through all that writing you're saying that its not so much the ability and the player but who filled the seats?
What I got after watching this video is you need to have a really good supporting players to be the "goat".
My top three are MJ , Wilt and Kareem. In no particular order. I enjoy watching Jordan the most. Next group is Magic, Bird, Russell, and maybe LeBron. Then there is a group of another half dozen or so.
Didnt know this! Great research! Put a bit of a dent or at least scratch on the GOAT debate knowing this happened in his prime
I don't know about that. Kareem was transitioning over to a new team. Sometimes it takes time to get an engine to work properly. It takes the right tuning to get it running properly. I think this was the case with Kareem.
Just being a student of Bruce Lee makes Kareem Abdul-Jabbar the GOAT, in my opinion.
Kareem never wants to talk about that. Look it up.
@@user-er3ri6sc3j, he was on the Scott Van Pelt show.
Kareem looked very comfortable talking about Bruce Lee. Van Pelt ask Kareem about a few different subjects as well as the 30 For 30 episode "Be Water".
Kareem also spoke to Byron Scott on his podcast about Bruce Lee.
2 3peats w/6 Finals' MVP is hard 2 beat. 10 Scoring Titles, 3 Steals Title, DPOY, 9 Defense 1st Teams. MJ broke foot 2nd yr and played 27 games after 1st retirement. He accomplished that in 13yrs as a Bull. That's DOMINANCE!!!
Scratch the 3 peats because they are team achievements not individual, Yes 10 scoring titles, great but... steals thats good too but 2 things 1) they didn't start counting steals until 1973 and Magic lead the league in steals twice which tells you something because Magic isn't good as a defender. DPOY only started in 1983 and its funny no one speaks of Sidney Moncrief who won it two years in a row and was a SG. Defense teams ok. I know of another player that was dominant
@grosskopf2779 the problem with ur assessment is that u didn't use someone that was dominant on both sides of the ball. And the 2 3peats matter cause it shows how ge led 2 different teams, meaning rosters, to chips.
@@spideyaes849 Baloney. If that’s the case where he led teams to Championships then why did he wait until the 90s to do it. He was in the league 6 years. Championships are a TEAM achievement not individual. For the 2 nd peat Rodman is the Unsung hero for the Bulls.
@grosskopf2779 the Bulls had to get rid of the druggies and alcoholics. Then get Home Grown players. Not recruit All-Stars to play. LBJ took 8yrs, moving and recruitment. Isaiah Thomas had Young Rodman and only won 2 in a row. Ur making my argument. MJ played 82 games 9x out of 15. 2 of those were injury and retirement, and still played both sides of the ball.
@@spideyaes849 I'm not making your argument and I could care less about Lebron. People keep comparing the two, people who really know basketball knows that they are two totally different players, Bulls had to get rid of the druggies and alcoholics? But MJ is the GOAT he could overcome those things because he is who he is and do it all both sides of the ball, just like the 90s he could have done it in the 80s
The whole GOAT debate really is kind of dumb because basketball is a 5 man sport. The argument should be for who's the greatest at each position. Jordan is clearly the greatest shooting guard in history and Lebron is right up there with Bird (although I would take Bird over him because he's just a better overall player). Kareem, Shaq, Wilt and Hakeem all are right up there for consideration as the best center. You can't really argue with saying Kareem is the best center in history.
One of the most sane responses I've heard. You can't, or shouldn't compare a PG to a center, or a SG to a power forward. Different positions with different skill sets...It make no sense. People only talk about the six chips Jordan has and never mention he got bounced from the playoff 6 consecutive years as well. For some reason that doesn't count. As you said, BB is a TEAM game...
@AfrikanLifestyle Jordan 1st 6 yrs are well documented. Certain players are clearly better than others regardless of position. This is why there are All-Star and All-NBA selections.
Kareem's rings are won with other GOAT's Big O and Magic. They didn't win rings without Kareem. Of course, if rings really mattered for GOAT discussions Sam Jones is the second greatest of all time. Kareem could not regularly create his own scoring opportunities but is that a requirement to be part of the conversation. Bill Russell could not generate enough offense to be dominant on his own.
Oscar Robertson was at the end of his road he was a shell of himself
It's more to basketball than Offense and the Elite bigs can win more with the least talent surrounding them
@@theetruth8626 Oscar at the end of his career was still one of the best guards in the league. Capable of getting Kareem the ball in good position. Wilt was such a great rebounder he could generate offense without a good point guard, but not sure there's another big who could.
Havlicek is the main scorer not Sam Jones. Up til now Havlicek holds the most total points in Celtics.
@@GojoRamsay888 My point is there's a counter argument to every potential GOAT. If you think Rings matter a lot there sits Sam Jones at number two all-time. In defense of Jones, the Celtics always wanted him to take the shot with the game on the line. He's the difference maker in many if not most of those title runs.
I still say he is the greatest player of all time at all three levels (High school, college, NBA). Very consistent.
Who MJ or Kareem? If its Kareem I agree
Kareem's NBA career waa not GOAT status whatsoever.
@@semaj06 Really? Why not?
@grosskopf2779 Think about this. During the 80s, Kareem's most successful decade. The GOAT debate was between Bird and Magic, his own teammate! Not saying Kareem wasnt an ATG, but hes not in the GOAT convo in my opinion. You cant just count his MVPS and rings without context.
@@semaj06 Huh? The GOAT debate as I recall didn't start until 1987-88 and they started talking about MJ. That talk didn't happen. Kareem is easily in the conversation. Without context?? What exactly is the context that you are looking for? Points, rebounds, blocks, what?
Hmm....being able to single-handedly lift two teams, who would have been historically bad without you, almost into the playoffs, and even winning MVP in one of those years -- as you said, the only player ever to accomplish this -- is only a further testament to your greatness...
Do the math:
Greatest high school player on greatest high school team ever + Greatest college player on greatest college team ever + Greatest NBA player on one of greatest NBA dynasties ever = GOAT 🏀🐐
Winning the MVP and not even making the playoffs is wild. Kareem was in LA for a couple of years and didn’t win. People always say MJ won because of Pip, which isn’t true. But this is the true case of Kareem winning because of Magic.
Detroit bounced MJ every year until Pippen arrives and came of age! Basketball is a team game anyway!
@@o-g-ob4399 Well being as though Pippen was playing with the Bulls when they were losing to the Pistons is one thing. Secondly, Pip wasn’t a starter or even make All Rookie team… stop acting like he came into the league a star. And if you know it’s a team game then you would know Pistons were a better team. Just like Isiah and the pistons were getting bounced and swept early in his career. However, MJ bounced and swept pistons emphatically
You're out of your mind. Jordan got bounced out of the playoffs for 6 consecutive years, SIX years straight before Pippen and other supporting cast members arrived. Basketball is a team sport. And all the Jordan lovers like to give Jordan ALL the credit for winning 6 chips but none of the blame for losing. Again, this shows how much BB is a team sport, and, no matter how good you are, 1 player is not beating 5...Bron is the same way, he gets ALL the credit when his teams win but none of the blame when they lose...
@@AfrikanLifestyle First you need to do some research before sounding stupid. MJ was drafted in 84… Pippen was drafted in 87. So Pippen was there and they still lost. The team got better but Pippen didn’t come into the league a star like Magic did. And even though MJ lost in playoffs, he still made it unlike Kareem. Lastly, Magic 1st year the lakers won and he was MVP… Pippen didn’t even make the allstar team until 4 years after being drafted. So yeah Magic came in the league a star. Try again!
do you even understand that there is Pat Riley, James Worthy ,Jamaal Wilkes,Norm Nixon,Bob Mcadoo ans many others like Cooper and Scott except Magic in the most stacked super team of all times and still if Dr J had a decent center they could have lost to the Sixers in both 80 and 82,never mind not so certain to reach the finals if they went against the Celtics in the conference finals..those years all 3 teams were almost equally good by a very thin margin and that was the best competition ever in the Nba by far including the Bucks.The Lakers though had the deepest team and a lot of top scorers to rely on!
A _LOT_ of people have Lebron as their number #2 or #1. I will _NEVER_ be able to do that. Until he at least finishes even in the Finals, he will never get past MJ or Kareem in my book. He should have won that chip in 2011. MJ, Kareem, Larry Legend, Timmy, etc would have found a way to win that series. Especially with a team like the Heat.
Where is WILT Chamberlain at bruh
@@theetruth8626 He didn't win enough when it mattered the most compared to greats like MJ, Kareem, Lebron, Larry Legend, Magic Johnson, Timmy, Bill Russell, etc.
And he's only got 4 MVPs compared to MJ and Kareem's 5/6. You're a pretty crazy dude if you don't have him in your all-time top 10 list though.
@@gseric4721 WILT faced better competition than those other guys you can say a guy is better when they haven't beaten any dynasties beating a mediocre team vs a dynasty it's like beating a Jr high team vs another player beating a h.s team that's what y'all doing when u trying to use that phrase as justification You gotta actually look at the competition that these players was facing WILT was battling the greatest dynasty in NBA history and WILT did beat them when nobody else could
@@gseric4721 now how the hell u keep saying Larry Bird when Magic Johnson was tearing him apart almost ever finals
@@theetruth8626 Because Magic Johnson had one of the greatest basketball players in the history of the National Basketball Association. And it was that same man that dethroned Wilt as the greatest player in the League at that time. If that isn't irony, then I don't know what is.
Larry Bird still managed to get 1 more chip than WIlt, and it would have been 4 or 5 if it weren't for that back injury.
You make a complicated subject matter come alive. I am 72 and have seen all the greats. My opinion is that the game is won or lost in the paint. Kareem controlled more aspects of the game than Jordan.
thats why jordan is the goat.because he debunked all the stereotypes.he impacted the game in a way that stats cant show.into the paint you have blocks,rebounds etc but paint is a very small area of the court.kareem was useless out of that area in offense and defense.jordans impact was full court in ways that stats cant capture.there is a reason bulls won 6 without having a dominant great center and his name is michael jordan.a terror on offense and defense.
You have a valid point for his era. However, The rules at the time favored his style. It was a hands off era and the 3 pointer spread the floor. Wilt Russel, Unseld and played in an era that was dominated by centers that would bloody Jordan if he drove to the basket. At that time, most ball was played in the half court and the floor was not spread out, making it more congested in the middle. He would not have been the GOAT in that era.
@@edwinjones1000 jordan grow up without 3 point line.even in most if not all his college years there was not a 3 point line and thats why his game involved around midrange and driving into the rim.
definitely the rules didnt benefit jordans game and there is a reason why teams development at that time was around a dominant center and strong front court.portland skipped jordan in draft because they wanted to get a center and they got sam bowie.
i dont think that 50-60s had bigger and better overall centers than what jordan had to face.bill russell was 6'10 and he was 1-2 inches taller than the average center at that era.jordan was attacking shaq into the rim,i dont think that 6'9 centers will make him have second thoughts on going into the rim.
bill russell era was one of the most fast paced eras in the history of the nba.the game was way less positional and tactical what it was during late 80s and 90s.jordan would have a lot more opportunities in open court plays than what he had in his era.
for the end many people have wrong perspective of jordans game because of many highlights with dunks and layups. jordans game was not limited in going into the rim.he was one of the best midrange shooters and one of the best if not the best midrange player of all time.
@@edwinjones1000I appreciate your truth telling and basketball wisdom
@@juventinos81the dominant center thing had been coming to an end b4 Jordan won. Jordan won his first championship in 91. Isiah Thomas had just came off of run of 5 conference finals, 3 finals appearances and b2b championships without a dominant center(the Pistons also ran a lot of 3 guard lineups/rotations). Drexler led his team to the finals 2x in 3 years with Kevin Duckworth as his center. The Lakers won with an aging and slow Kareem in 88...B4 the Bulls ascension the last team to win with a dominant big man was the Celtics in 86 with Robert Parrish and he wasn't the focal point of the offense. The last real dominant big man to win it was Moses Malone in 83. The league was already in transition, Jordan was right place, person,and time.
I think it hurts his case a little but his team always won more games with him than they did without him. He was never accused of resting on defense or stat padding. Only winning championships with Oscar and Magic hurts his goat argument more than his struggles carrying a terrible team to playoff contention.
Prime Kareem didn’t win a ring for 9 years in the ‘70s until Magic joined the Lakers. Magic saved Kareem’s legacy, honestly. He’s a top 5 but not GOAT. Some players were able to carry their teams like MJ, LeBron, Olajuwon to playoffs… but I don’t think Kareem could.
@@oceanlives4915 …Did Kareem or Wilt get physically knocked down and hit every time they played? Did they experience anything like Jordan Rules? Of course NOT. Jordan had to muscle up to overcome the adversity. NBA didn’t change the rules so they couldn’t do use their brutal tactics on Jordan. Wilt was his era’s Shaq, overpowering. Players feared him, more than the other way around. Prime Kareem was much better than those around him in the 70s. He didn’t dominate like he should have though. Go study up on basketball history thoroughly.
We give too much credit to individuals for what is a team sport. No one has ever won a championship on his own. Not Jordan and certainly not Lebron. Surrounding Jordan with quality players and the triangle offense (not to mention their crazy defense) were the reasons they won. Jordan was the best player in the league at the time. . .regardless of whether or not the team won. Isiah Thomas recently said that he beat Jordan head to head. No. . .the Pistons were better than the Bulls until they weren't. It's not tennis. Kareem is like Tim Duncan: because he's not flashy, people forget how dominant he was.
Great video. Absolutely it disqualifies him especially with the team he had. Lucious Allen, Cazy Russel and Gail Goodrich. Then a couple years later he get Nixon, Dantley and Silk Wilks and lost in the 1st round. Definitely he's disqualified.
I say all the time I don't care what Kareem did when he was in high school as a pro every time he won he had one the greatest big man HOF point guards of all time of that era either Big O or Magic. People love to point out how Pip was always there with Jordan and how LeBroom basically played with a plethora of All Stars whenever the Queen won rings people forget Kareem had plenty of help too it wasn't just him hookshoting over players all night.
Would Magic had won without Kareem or Worthy .
@@ottolevine978 most definitely very possible because he's the greatest facilitator imo but probably not 5 chips. It's just like with LeBron you put great players around a facilitator their going to win they're also going to have their fair share of losses in the Finals too. It's the killers like MJ (0 L's) Bird (2 L's) and Kobe (2 L's) who don't have as many losses in the Finals or none at all.
@@ramsesstafford4640 Do not totally agree Your logic does make sense though.
In my opinion Kareem should be in the debate with Jordan for the GOAT, not Lebron.
I am a MJ fan Kareem, MJ , Kobe and you can argue Wilt those 4 guys are the up class that the media should be debating. All 4 men 2way players led and dominated their eras and so this makes more sense
Not Kobe
I find it hilarious that the phrase "MJ got 1-9 before Pippen showed up"
It's not like Pippen was playing at a high level right out of the gate, and he wasn't even a starter on that weak Bulls team.
Pippen played 10p - 5r - 2a at his 1st playoff series, a virtually compliant role player performance. To win the first round, Jordan needed to play 45p - 5r - 5a on 56% shooting from the field.
In pippen`s 3years in the chicago, his playoff stats are 14.5p - 6.9r - 4.1a - 1.5s - 1.0b That's great. Of course, not for a great second option, but a great third option. During the same time period, Jordan had 35.8p - 7.1r - 6.7a - 2.6s - 0.9b
Pippen is a great player, but people have to realize that it took him almost four years to become the Pippen we know.
yup and he didnt even make the allstar team when the bulls won their first championship in 1991 but the bronsexuals seem to forget that
Thanks 😮
Big men needed good guards to get the ball to them in that era. Russel, Wilt, they all had dominant guard play too when winning championships. It's not like the era today where big men can bring the ball up and take threes.
Rick Barry made some good points. I think he was skeptical about comparing eras. His bigger point is that you should have all time players listed by POSITION. Kareem, LeBron and MJ all played different positions. This makes more sense if you going to combine eras.
Magic is the second greatest player I've ever seen. This video reiterates why for me.
As an MJ fan, I have Kareem #2 on my top 10 all-time list behind MJ
Kareem had such a great career. What is the point of diving way back to the mid-70s and whipping him over his and his team’s disappointing 2 seasons.
the reason is understanding that comment section legacies and debates are build on echo chamber nonsense and not real analysis of all the variables at play..simply put Kareem failed hard in the same spirit others failed hard also in 78/79 with Wilkes,Nixon and Dandley 3 multiple all star team mates and frequent 20 ppg scorers and if magic didnt came along or the Sixers had a Center he would have way less rings..does that change his legacy?..in my eyes no, in the eyes of the people stack in the rings argument for sure!
@@andreaspapadakis2602 very well said.
The whole notion of counting rings when assessing players in a team sport gets pretty obnoxious.
If Jordan and Kareem were in the draft at the same time Kareem would go first 10 out of 10 time's
Bro , these Brainwashed HATERS Can't Handle That Much TRUTH ! ...
No! Those two seasons are irrelevant as far as I am concerned! Kareem Abdul-Jabbar should still remain in the GOAT conversation!
Let's dive even deeper into your analysis of the 1975-1976 season.
The 1975 Lakers went 30-52. Kareem joined that team the following season and improved the record by 10 games.
Here's the thing. The team that went 30-52 was not the same team he joined.
He replaced 2 good players and 2 rookies who were picks #2 and #8 in the draft. He brought a 3rd string Center with him from the Bucks.
Brian Winters & Elmore Smith combined for 53.9 minutes, 22.6 points, 12.9 rebounds, 4.9 assists, 2.2 steals, and 3.2 blocks in 1974-1975.
They took those stats with them to the 1976 Bucks.
Without those two guys where would that team be? That 1974-1975 Lakers team doesn't win anywhere near 30 out 82 games. More like 6-76 or 12-70 without Winters and Smith.
So the "10 game improvement" was more like 28 or 34 additional wins.
----------------------------------------------------------------
Kareem and Jordan both joined the next to last place team as rookies.
1969 Bucks 27-55
Drafted Kareem
1970 Bucks 56-26 Lost in the Eastern Division Finals to Eventual Champion Knicks 4-1. Kareem statistically outplayed the 1970 regular season MVP and Finals MVP Willis Reed
1971 Bucks Champions
1984 Bulls 27-55
Drafted Jordan
1985 Bulls 38-44 Lost in the first round to Milwaukee Bucks 3-1. Jordan was outscored by Terry Cummings of the Bucks.
1986 Bulls 30-52 Jordan missed most of the season. Lost 3-0 to the eventual Champion Celtics in the 1st Round
1987 Bulls 40-42 Lost in the 1st round to the Runner Up Celtics 3-0
No Finals Appearance until 1991 which was Jordan's 1st Championship
Despite 2 long "retirement" breaks, Jordan's knees were shot at age 40. The Eastern Conference was very weak compared to the West and yet the Wizards never made it to the playoffs. They could not finish 8th either season to qualify. 10th in 2002. Tied for 9th in 2003.
Longevity:
Jordan played 14.25 seasons over 19 years. Started at 21. Retired at 40.
Kareem played 20 seasons in a row. Started at 22. Retired at 42.
You can't be the GOAT if you can't put butts in the seats and the NBA nearly bankrupts on your watch.
Plus, he played several years where the competition was divided with the ABA.
That means nothing when it comes to playing basketball it's who can win the most off their skill set not who pack the seats
@@theetruth8626 BS....GOAT impacts both
Try again little pudgy
In all fairness he should have shared the 1980s finals MVP with magic.
Considering the 70’s were the “weakest era”, he should’ve been winning championships along with winning mvps. It was only until magic arrived that he won more chips and also side note, they say magic and bird saved the league, why isn’t Kareem in that convo 🤔
Technically the 70s were the most competitive era in basketball. No one won back to back and there was the most amount of champions in a decade. But go off son
@@andrewcook1246 yea competitive enough to have to merge with the aba to stay relevant but continue
@@Ant-je5vu nba had a marketing problem no doubt but which one wound up being absorbed? Doesn't change iit being the most balanced decade. People barely watched the Spurs. Doesn't take away them being a dynasty and TD a top 10 player.
They master the Basic part of the game I take the any years over these bums they mentality weak and crying all the time about 82 games is to much no defense Load management . You make the game great the game don't make you great
The seventies were not they weakest era. That's a huge myth
This title is ridiculous. I just came to give you the engagement you’re trolling for. 😂
No, these criticisms are misplaced.
Fact is, no matter how great the player, if **80%** (four of the five) are not contributing at a high enough level, that one great player cannot get it done.
Jordan lost the majority of his 60 point games. Wilt lost all but one of his 70 point games. What more were they supposed to do to win those games? The fact that they HAD to score so much to try to win those games reflects a weak team other than them. The common headline in Jordan's early years was 'Bulls lose despite Jordan's 37 points.' He couldn't get his teams to even .500 (his first three years) until he got better teammates.
A team sport requires a good enough TEAM. Generally in the NBA, that meant two all-star level players and another player who was just below that level who could get you 20+ points fairly regularly.
Great narrative. I dont think the 2 non playoff seasons should disqualify from the GOAT bebate but does make him not the GOAT over MJ who made playoffs every year with Bulls with some crappy teams and no other All Star help. MJ ❤4ever the GOAT periodt
No one was like the real GOAT, MICHAEL JORDAN, lebron, kareen, they are just little lambs, next to the biggest and best of all, JORDAN.
Criteria for GOAT;
MUST be in the conversation of greatest high school player ever
MUST be in the conversation of greatest college player ever
MUST be in the conversation of greatest professional player ever
MUST have won titles on all three levels
MUST be stellar on both sides of the ball
MUST have won at least five league MVP awards
This equates to only one player…KAREEM ABDUL JABBAR!
Magic
I look at it as how they have chosen to market the NBA: mythologize the current/recent players at the expense of the past. And even worse, legislate changes to make it easier for the current batch of players. Defensive three in the key, crazy interpretations of traveling, remove hand-checking, all with the intent to increase scoring and make it easier on offense. And top it off with whatever else (legal and illegal) players are putting in their bodies nowadays. I was a Celtics fan, and let me say this: no one had a better basketball career than Kareem. He might have been the best player in the world when he was a freshman at UCLA. So what was the real difference? Kareem wasn't a media darling and had something to say other than selling shoes or himself.
This is very simple to solve who has the most impact on that basketball court off their skill set not whos the most entertaining player this ain't dancing its basketball not who needs the most talent surrounding them just to compete at the level of those dominant players alone
The GOAT title is 100% subjective!
i did not hear anyone wants to be like Kareem. Even Shaq dont want to learn his sky hook
The following players were amongst the best of the 1970s, but spent a good amount of time in the ABA during that timespan, leaving a much weaker and watered down NBA for other players to compete in.
Rick Barry - 1968/69 - 1971/72, did not play in 1967/68
Artis Gilmore - 1971/72 - 1975/76
Billy Cunningham - 1972/73 - 1973/74
George Gervin - 1972/73 - 1975/76
Julius Erving - 1971/72 - 1975/76
David Thompson - 1975/76
This would be akin to Jordan competing in a league without Isiah, Magic, Drexler, Barkley, Payton, Stockton or Malone for a large chunk of his career, except for the fact that Jordan's group of competition was of far higher quality overall to begin with. The 1970s had a severe dearth of quality NBA competition to begin with, and having to compete with the ABA weakened it even further
I like Kareem and I got him over Bron.. but not over Mj
Could you imagine a Prime Olajuwon in the 70s! Or even today Kareem was great but best Center goes to Hakeem not Kareem especially considering if Hakeem had the players Kareem had 😮
Players "winning" championships are in large part dependent on their team. If a great player is on a great team with competent management, coaching etc. they will win e.g, IF MJ WAS PLAYING TODAY WITH THE SAME SKILL SET HE HAD BEFORE BUT WAS PLAYING FOR THE CHARLOTTE HORNETS THERE WOULD BE NO 3PEAT OR EVEN ONE CHAMPIONSHIP; BUT ON THE OTHER HAND IF HE WERE PLAYING FOR THE WARRIORS (A COMPETENT TEAM) THINGS WOULD BE DIFFERENT.
I always had MJ #1, Kareem #2, Magic, Wilt, Kobe or Lebron #3.
He missed 16 games so was his record when he was in the lineup? Kareem=MVP
The only basketball player in history to have a law put out in his name the Lew Alcinder rule !
IDC what the critics says Kareem #2 on my list ALL TIME. 😤
im going off your commentary on this video in order. so he won his 3rd mvp in 5 season yet bird won 3 straight, does that make bird better then kareem?. he was injured by breaking his hand and played but didnt make the playoffs, jordan in the 85-86 season broke his foot and missed 64 games, he returned to play the last 15 games against the teams wishes and helped chicago make it to the playoffs. who would you say helped the team more? that should help the discussion more.
Kareem forgot to mention that an old Wilt who couldn't hit free throws and win championships, outplayed him during some of their matchups. Jordan would never have allowed that.
No I don't think he should be disqualified for missing the playoffs, especially with his supporting class he had.
All that was confirmed is that great players need help.
Once I heard MJ went 1-9 before Pippen, I cut it off. Told TH-cam do not recommend amateur hour🤦🏾♂️
The Lakers also lost to Seattle first round in 78 and 79(4 - 1) regardless to the fact that they had Nixon,Dantley and Wilkes! they won 5 titles but they added Magic,Worthy,Mcadoo,Cooper and Scott..that was a very very stacked super team throughout the decade and they also had Riley..so its more than certain that if Kareem had stayed with the Bucks he would have been a one ring player and even that with Oscar..does that diminish his skills on a personal level..absolutely not..the rings argument is the biggest crap argument of all times because there are so many variables at play that no one can win rings because he is so dominant by him self period!
the original lebum
Kareem deserves the GOAT title! But not everyone gonna SAY that cuz he didn’t have SEXY PLAY! Man winning is SEXY!
WILT Chamberlain the goat
@@theetruth8626 that’s “The Truth” lol see wat I did there? Wild how DUDE DONT GET LOVE!
@@jay5jay because everyone wants to try to sell the most entertaining players on the same level as the most dominant players when that's the biggest false delusion ever created see those same people runs from the facts of how can you be better than another player when you needs other superstars surrounding them just to equal the impact of those other dominant players alone how can you be better than a player when you can't do what they can do
@@jay5jay 1. WILT 2. Kareem 3. Jordan 4. Olajuwon 5. Shaq 6. Duncan 7. Russell 8. LeBron 9. Bird 10. Magic
@@theetruth8626 1)Kareem 2)Kobe 3)Jordan 4)Keem 5)Timmy 6)Lebron 7)Wilt 8)Magic 9)Bird 10)Kidd
Wilt Chamberlain is the G.O.A.T. Nobody will break his records in rebounds, blocks, and points in a single game
Kareem is better and more valuable than Lebron. His sky hook was an unstoppable and he was an excellent teammate who only played for 2 teams! Incredible teammate, respected his coaches, his competitors, and was an above avg freethrow shooter. Lebron has jumped ship 2 times and runs the Lakers!! His points arent legit like Kareem's were! He travels, carries, flops, etc! How many nights does Lebron take off? Kareem hardly ever missed games. They traveled on commercial planes and Kareem played through migraine headaches! Kareem won 3 NCAA titles and they banned dunking because of him! There is no comparison in my book!
Kareem NEVER WON without Oscar and Magic.
Nobody talks him as the goat or these 100 year old facts because none of the analysts watched these games
All basketball heads know you'd take Kareem #1. He wins ships.
Wilt also missed the playoffs once as well. Jordan missed the playoffs twice.
Kareem never got dominated for years like MJ did in the 80’s. You are talking about kareem missing the playoffs
I’ve often said that Kareem should be in the GOAT conversation. Just sayin. All great players have something that’s questionable.
I will let you rant on and on about not being able to find your way out, without having a Oscar Robinson type of player
It's quite funny how you feel about Michael Jordan and how stand up for the reasons you started losing. By the way Michael Jordan played with a broken wrist and used his other hand to score the ball. You don't hear him complain about losing , because he doesn't do anything that he wouldn't do himself. He carries himself like a man
No excuses made period. And we do respect Karreem. Like Kobe Bryant, Tim Duncan, and many others
This is what Ive been saying that Karrem is overrated af! In the 80s when he won 5 of his 6 rings. No one was talking about him being thr GOAT. It was between Magic, his own teammate, and Bird. Then MJ eclipsed them all.
It's a team sport
NOPE. Those 2 season are NOT what disqualifies him as the Goat.
What actually disqualifies him as the goat is that even tho he won the MVP again in 1980. He was actually never the true alpha of those showtime lakers teams. Those were magics teams. And Magic proved it in his first year by winning finals MVP taking over for him at center in game 6.
What kinda all time superstar team leader has their team immediately win 60+ games and make the finals the in the 2 years after he retired?
If they was really the main one responsible how does their team get better after their leave?
If your going to be the true goat you have to be the alpha on your team for at least more than 1 championship
If you’re going to be the goat you have to win get more than 1 championship in your prime and your team is winning 59+ games with Oscar Robinson for 4 straight seasons. All be it an older Oscar who was playing sidekick but still definitely a good enough sidekick.
But what does that say about Kareem when Oscar was the clear sidekick and still averaging the same amount of points as he did later on with showtime during an era?
If your going to be the goat you have to make more than just 2 finals appearances in what is unanimously considered the weakest era in NBA history when half the best players in the world were in the ABA. An era in which you dominated and literally won half of the daceds MVPs!!
If your going to be the goat you have to at the very least establish yourself as the clear cut number 2 most valuable player to a dynasty and win more than just the same amount of finals MVPs and average more than just 2 rebounds more than James Worthy during those showtime years. Or at the very least even average more points in the same minutes!!!!
If your going to be the goat you have to at least have your best seasons without a top 3-4 PG of all time yield more than 56 wins and 53 wins with just 1 conference championship appearances.
Dr J put up 5x 50+ win seasons before he ever paired up with Mosses. Including 3x 58+ win seasons and 2 finals appearances with the same amount of hall of fame teammates and even less all star appearances in total on his team than Kareem’s 70s Lakers!!
Patrick Ewing led 7x 50+ win teams and a 60 win team with 0 other hall of famers and made multiple conference championships
Charles Barkley led 3x 56+ win teams with 0 hall of famers and made multiple conference championships.
Hakeem only played with 1 other all star before winning his 2nd title with an old Clyde Drexler and won 50+ games 4x before that and made multiple finals and even won 1.
Hell Even Pippen managed to win 55+ games in his first year without Jordan.
Carrying your team to 50+ wins for a season or two isn’t special enough to cement yourself as a top 5 player ever.
It’s not enough to just be a big reason your team wins games. Or even just a big reason you win championships. You have to be THE reason your team wins championships!
Where talking about the goat convo for crying out loud. There’s levels to this.
We don’t give Scottie Pippen the same amount of credit for those 6 championships as we do MJ.
We don’t give Kobe the same amount of credit for his first 3 championships with Shaq as we do for his last 2 with Gasol.
We don’t give Dwayne Wade the same amount of credit as we do for his 2 championships with Lebron as we do for his one with Shaq.
We just simply do not give guys that play 2nd fittle the same amount of credit as the true number 1 on championship teams.
Kareem is probably the greatest “individual” player of all time. But he was never a true alpha and never a true leader. And those things are just way too important in a team game like basketball. Especially when talking about the GOAT.
Look all respect to Kareem cuz I’d still take him over Wilt all time any day of the week.
But when I remember his career I think of his 6 MVPs before I do his 6 rings. And I think of him as one of the greatest scorers and rim protectors of all time before I do any of his insane accolades.
Every single top 10 player of all time has led their team to MULTIPLE championships as the top dog.
EXCEPT Kareem!!!
I don’t wanna be known as a Kareem hater for having him so low on my top 10 list. But if your going to be a consensus top 5 Mount Rushmore player you at the very least need to have a real case to be the goat.
And actually looking at the context of his career and past his incredible resume. He clearly doesn’t.
The division were put in to reduce travel. The NBA in the 1970's isn't the billion dollar industry it is today. Travel was expensive. You played your division more games and to make it more competitive, they put a division champ and a playoff birth in playoff birth in place if you win..
Also, the Lakers had a loosing record to that " sorry" Milwaukee team you speak off!
The is Kareem won the finals MVP in 1980 if you do your research.
For the life of me, why mofo's don't get it's A team sport.
Titles is A team accomplishment, but your stats & awards are yours.
Wilt Chamberlain the goat 2. Kareem 3. Jordan 4. Olajuwon 5. Shaq 6. Duncan 7. Russell 8. LeBron 9. Bird 10. Magic
Idk
Nice breakdown. BTW Jordan is the GOAT period.
The Lakers gutted their sqaud to trade for Kareem.
I tire of the goat discussion. As a basketball purest, I appreciate players with the most cumulative contribution. Jordan and Dr J were flashy entertainers. Kareem, Malone, LeBron were better all round players with consistency and dedication. They will always get the nod from me. Butts in the seats is nice for the capitalists, but hard work, humility and teamwork will shine over pure gifted talent and showmanship. I'm not saying Jordan wasn't a beast but his choices, attitude and obvious advantages given to him because of his ability to make people money take him out of the top for me.
Oh you mean his desire to be the best that attitude
So Jordan was just a flashy entertainer?????????........Wasn't he also a WINNER AND ALL TIME GREAT DEFENDER?????
He was great, but not the goat whatever that even means.
@@mmwalters1retired twice isn't attitude. He gave up ever being a goat because of his attitude.
MJ being an entertainer? 50% from the field career 30ppg, 10 scoring titles, 9X all defense, 5 regular season MVPs and 6 FMVP??......huh, that's a weird way of describing a flashy entertainer :/
Jordan's seasons playing baseball were far worse, and they don't exclude him.
No, it doesn't disqualify him of being the GOAT
Ridiculous...Of course not. Silly silly stuff. Actually it strengthens his case for being the GOAT because he carried a Laker team that was loaded with old vets or second rate players who couldn't really play that well. No disrespect. Can you name another player on those Laker teams? I can. Don Ford (who the Lakers would eventually trade to the Cavs for the draft pick that ended up being James Worthy)? CJ Kupec, Stu Lantz who was already ready to retire, a rickety Cazzie Russell, Walt Wesley!!!! Lucius Allen and Gail Goodrich were probably his best supporting teammates. They had Corky Calhoun!!! You have to remember, the Lakers traded all their best players to get Kareem!! Elmore Smith was a defensive master. Brian Winters went on to become an all-star, David Meyers and Junior Bridgeman both made names for themselves. The following year, they had the best record in the league with the likes of Tom Abernathy, Bo Lamar, Earl Tatum, Don Chaney and many of the same players from the previous year. They were eventually swept by Portland in the Semis by an overpowering Portland team. Kareem deserves credit for carrying that team as far as he did to the best record in the league and to the conference finals. He's the GOAT.....he knows it, Jordan knows it, and LeBron knows it.
“Lebron is the Greatest Longevity player” those that believe that clearly don’t know Kareem
So fine Kareem argument, but then you would say you greater than him, you serious you never pass kobe
Kareem is without a doubt one of the greatest player of all time but in 5 of those ships Magic was the best player,he is like Lebron longevity numbers,MJ have more trophies in way less season
Kareem was the FMVP in 1985 and was voted the 1980 FMVP AFTER Magic's great game 6 but because Kareem was not present, the voters were asked to change their votes so Magic would get the award. This is all covered in the book "Kareem" pages 140-141. Magic was not the best player in all of his 5 championships. Kareem was also the FMVP in 1971 with the Bucks.
Wilt
DrJ is the GOAT..
Kareem did enough to be the greatest, before Jordan he was the GOAT, the media Need to stop this Lebron debate, he is one of the biggest losers, Top 2 is Jordan and Kareem, Y'all Who thinks that Lebron surpassed him is Crazy
Interesting because if Jordan had the same Playoffs rules as Kareem in the 1970's Jordan don't even make the playoffs before Scottie Pippen.
The Bulls were literally the 8th seed when they were facing Boston. If only 10 teams made the NBA playoffs in the 1980's the Bulls don't make it...before Pippen
So what's your point again???
Kareem is the 2nd goat