One thing is, when choosing the PSU, make sure it's compatible with UPSs and PDUs. I want my router to be battery backed up, it came quite handy before. I might care about the aesthetics of the router, but not the PSU.
@@lukahrastovec5022 Depends on the UPS, the Eaton Ellipse PRO UPS series all have regular Schuko connections. One of those nearly caught fire in my house though so I wouldn't recommend them ;)
Battery backup should not be built in given the only available proper UPSs already on the market. But making sure it has compatability and full functioning control for such is a must And side not never NEVER using the still in use lunatic bs APC uses of their custom usb to rj45 craptacular cord... an industry std usb cable is far better for such for obvious reasons lol
If it takes a USBC input, I don’t particularly care which adapter it comes with. If it is a barrel or anything else, something like the last option would be my preference. With regard to the closed source binary, I have no issue with it, provided the vendor can’t kill it remotely once the license expires.
Yeah I'm rapidly reaching the point where if the device pulls less power than a leaf-blower, I'm hoping for a USB-C port. I'm sick of all the random power bricks & wall warts.
I agree with the license bit. That's why the company I work for stopped using Sofos devices. I still have several units sitting in storage. Expensive paper weights....
I second the no power supply necessary. Might give the option. I think you can use the PD protocol to make sure the user power supply is good enough before booting, that would avoid instabilities.
And I would like to point out that most of us ready to put up money to be early adopters of your router are likely to have a bunch of spare power supplies sitting around anyway. By not including a power supply, at least for these, you might well get better feedback on just what is required, and which countries/regions require it.
I'm not sure if that's a good idea. If people use shit USB-C Power Supplies that could cause issues which would need to be troubleshot by support, which would drive up cost again.
@@ChainShinra as an easy solution it can be a feature of the case, something similar to a cable tie or a latch that holds on to the cable … there are USB-C connectors with screws but those are kind of special and uncommon
@@ChainShinra Yes, USB-C has two locking variants! One with a single screw on top, another with two screws to the sides. Being compatible with that should be fairly easy, and pretty much free if they are already CNCing a case.
As a dealer/installer of residential networks, I strongly prefer "brick" type power supplies with detachable power cables. These ensure zero chance of blocking adjacent mains sockets on plug strips, etc. Better if the bricks have mounting ears for screwing to wall or zip-tying to rack/shelf.
POE in as an optional module would be nice I'd rather use my POE brick or switch to power it than USBC. Also do not feature creep this router to the point where people can just buy any random mini PC and add a router os on it. Also if you need more than 5V2A use 9V2A USBPD DO NOT GO OVER 2A ON 5V.
@@tomazzaman I've seen people having issues with their chargers not supporting 15V especially if it's an older charger using an older USB C PD standard. If you can have everything work within 24W you should seriously consider using 12V instead, as even really old chargers will support that. But if 24W isn't enough I would just go up to 20V instead since that's the next highest voltage supported by older chargers. You'll have a lot less support requests and customer frustration if you stick with a more common voltage.
@@trevdawg94 Woah, this is an incredibly bad idea. 12V is NOT part of the current PD spec and many adaptors including ones from the like of Anker do not offer this voltage level.
When looking at ungrounded switching power supplies, keep in mind that the 'Y capacitor' that is usually needed for filtering means the 'ground' on the DC side is weakly pulled to around half of the mains voltage. This can sometimes be felt as a small shocks when touching devices connected to such a PSU, but you especially need to ensure your design can handle this from an ESD point of view, since in 240V RMS countries, this can be up to 170V that will be discharged (possibly regularly) once your device comes into contact with something that is actually grounded. Also, if you have no real ground reference, you cannot ground the shields of the BaseT-Ports. If they are grounded on the other side, that's fine, but if CAT-cable's shields are ungrounded on both sides, the shielding inside the cable will become like an antenna for interference, often resulting in even worse signals than without shielding in the first place.
To add onto that: I've had a few occurrences where Cat5 cables actually fully melted their insulators, because there was potential between ground on both sides. I'd still say definitely try to get it grounded, and grounded well. imo best would be a USB-C port in the actual router itself, so that users *can* supply their own power, but also then a PSU that you can basically clip onto the router which has a C14 socket
Honestly, i like the unifi plug. It is small. The ideal plug for me personally is a plug that is small ish, doesn't need a light and can have change the adapter to what ever to make it cheaper also multi volt. 100-250V Also for the ground part, i would suggest adding a ground pin to the router device which the user can use. I live in a area with bad voltages so i need to ground everything. Even the lamps are grounded!
If you're going type-c, regardless of what power supply you get please have the board be PD2.0 (or higher) compliant. The amount of chargers that are 9/15/20V which I end up with makes dealing with
Definitely. I've tried our favorite PSU with a number of devices (even powering a monitor), and it all works perfectly fine. Of course, this part is easy, the certification process will be the step that determines whether I was right :)
I'm not too against the closed source NXP software, my main concern is sounds like the type of thing that might make it hard to say update the kernel in the future and I'd imagine you'll be have to pay them for stuff like updates and security patches. It looks like they have a few different versions of the ASK with different features, I'm curious which you were considering. Also where do I sign up for the pre-order EVK boards?
I'd rather them hire someone for similar. 40k a year is a lot, how many years are they going to be paying? It'll quickly cost more. Also open source it F that company
Honestly, this I want to both test thoroughly from tech standpoint as well as look at it from every legal angle. Will report on both in the near future.
Ehh.. my first comment went missing. So overall: please test the power supplies under different loads, check the ripple/noise. If possible, try to simulate voltage drop "spikes" on the AC side, and check out what happens with the output, when the the voltage flips back... Those should tell you, which power brick is better, and also you can measure efficiency for all of them, since those will be plugged in 24/7.
YES! Also, about PSUs, personally I don't mind either way and in fact if you chose Type-C input, I can source my own locally or using my existing one if it means the device will be cheaper. About the blue connector - why not use 3x standard 4-pin fan connectors instead and just use the 1st one for power instead of fan? This way no adapters are needed at all. CPU cost/power: I prefer not to run extra services on my firewall, but would be nice to have it fast as possible for IDS/IPS especially at higher speeds even if it means a more expensive device.
Grounding is important for high speed ethernet cables that assume correct ground for the internal shielding. Also consider the capacity of this electrical connection with every port connected with long cables +25m
I would prefer something with detachable cables on both ends, that way it can be placed where ever I want it and it's not having up precious space on a PDU or power strip. The last one you showed would be my preference. Sure, it's bulkier in general, but since the cables are the most prone to failure, they can be replaced easily.
I'm probably not the target market for this as my homelab is on the smaller scale, but I do reccomend on getting it electrically grounded, either via the power supply or a grounding screw. The psu choice depends on the plug type I think, type g sockets tends to have a lot of space for other plugs, while type b sockets tends to be more tightly packed and the plug size can impede the neighboring plugs, having a standard like a 12v barrel plug or usb C PD could make it easier for users to change the psu based on their limitations/needs.
Power Adaptor: No idea, but I do like the 3 prong connector because the Earth leakage is valuable for dealing with shorts. CPU: I like the additional headroom, while you might only use a device for a specific case, updates and things ontop can bloat and cause additional requirements over time, while you want it to be optimal and I imagine you will, the extra 'space' for calculations is always nice.
A grounded power supply isn't a big deal to me but the router should have a ground connection, usually just a screw with a serrated washer. I would also like to see a option to buy this router without an included power supply. I also wouldn't mind a screw terminal or Phoenix power connection, just like on some MicroTik devices.
Agreed, especially the rack mount version! Grounding the chassis is a very important part of ESD and surge protection, so being able to attach a dedicated ground wire is essential.
Okay.. here is the third :) I noticed the isolation transformers are outside of the connector. Possibly you're awear that those RJ45 connectors are available with included magnetics (at least I have some on my project with 100M/gigabit) also is there any reason why not using connectors, which have the LEDs included inside the connector? And finally a design idea: if this device not using more than 60W, maybe it should have PoE input as power source, same as mikrotik have multiple options :)
There's a reason we used transformers outside the port itself and its an aesthetic one. We wanted the enclosure to look as clean and minimal as possible, and the RJ-45 jacks that we put on were pretty much the only ones on the market that align both with the vertical USB-C jacks as well as SFP+ cages. All the others would be positioned higher (vertically), which would look misaligned. And as for the PoE, we discussed this internally quite extensively since it's a popular suggestion. The problem is that we'd need to use PoE++ (to have some buffer), which isn't that popular yet and as such we decided it's not worth the extra component cost and complexity as of right now.
The choice of having a ground or not is not dependent on the current level of the adapter- It's based on ground leakage in the power supply. As far as I know, you can only really get away without a ground if your enclosure is isolated. I'm not sure which country you're based in though, so regulation in your area may be different.
YES! Something low risk like this is perfect in my mind. All things being equal, it turns out well for everyone - but if things go haywire, there's a backup. I would seriously consider ordering one (and may end up ordering it regardless of price anyways) if this was an option.
For the power supply there really are two criteria for me: - Power efficiency - modular / UK plug I run my network equipment at home connected to a UPS. Adaptors and inefficient PSUs drain minutes from my run time. So I'm keen on keeping the waste power to a minimum. I don't think a missing ground will be a problem. Most if not all commercial home/small business routers run with barrel plugs on just +/- without any ground. Dont think that would be a major problem. That supply looks fine, as long as the efficiency is alright.
YES, a reservation, especially for the purposes of sending a signal to larger investors, is something I would participate in! The total cost you mentioned in USD is indeed rather high for a preorder. But for those of us who don't have several tens of thousands free to invest, reducing the risk via a $50 reservation is good. I want this device to come to market. I want to buy it, as it will hit all the practical speed and feature needs of my home networking for many years, spreading its cost over time.
YES I have no need for this thing, but your videos really have me curious about it and interested in being in on the ground floor. I have all enterprise grade equipment on my network, so this would 100% be a playtoy/curiosity, but your passion for the project and explanations and openness about how it is being created makes it of great interest to me. A couple of other answers to your questions: I like the PSU you showed last. For network equipment I hate having a brick with prongs since often wherever the router is at you'll have several other devices and in consumer grade too many things have bulky bricks that don't fit onto a power strip or UPS back panel. Having a cord, even a short one, eliminates the problem. Plus with having both sides being plug-able, it's infinitely more repairable. if a cord fails from too much flex, wear from rubbing against other stuff,, or even a rodent getting at it, its easy to swap in a new cord! As for the closed source code, it's not great, but if you're going to have it then keep the extra performance, or at least have two models, one with the performance at a higher price tag, the other cheaper, but you get only what you need performance-wise. I'd just ask that you always be on the lookout for an open source alternative to replace the closed source code and hardware.
You should ground them! Otherwise you could have like 100 V AC on the USB C cable. The current would be super low, but it's still there and it could introduce noise into signals or even cause electrical issues such as a very light shock and sparks.
My thoughts on the power supply: I don't like power supplies which block the socket next to itself, so I prefer the ones with a cable to the socket. Even those that are quite slim can be blocking sometimes, especially when the sockets are aligned at an 45° angle On the performance: I don't want to run any complex software on my router that isn't routing something or has a specific dependency on the router like network filtering or a firewall. I like to have a single responsibility principle (taken from software dev) for my hardware, so a NAS is it's own VM/Machine and not a feature of the server Also: YES! I would preorder it for a small deposit. I like to have full control over my hardware and watching your videos shows me what to expect and that's a huge win for me, even if it is a bit more expensive.
YES! I'll buy one evaluation kit. But hopefully you'll open all documentation for self installing and booting a custom linux operating system. I'm not very interested in running OpenWRT all the time. Your project is a perfect playground to create a cool router software from scratch or at least nearly from scratch.
I quite despise the tingle of leakage current for equipment using ungrounded switching supplies. If you won’t consider a good grounded supply, I think exclude it entirely and leave it to the buyer to acquire their own. Or at minimum, provide the option to purchase without.
I'm really not comfortable with nxp or their "blackbox". Is there any way you could just give it the necessary hardware and processing power and let the community figure out the software?
Software is always going to have issues going above a few Gbps, Intel x86 has the raw power, but it's expensive in power and needs a lot of custom work to get Linux to go "line rate" ASIC puts this into a whole different class. No longer is it's competition some Chinese mini-pc in a tin case. This would be a router using what the likes of Cisco, juniper and Arista have been doing for years.
He can't really. For some reason he's bet the farm on a particular ARM SoC that needs itss hardware acceleration to achieve the advertised speeds. HW offload is not supported for the SoC in official OpenWRT etc. You will be dependent on a fork for the life of the product
I wouldn't care about the power supply size - as long as it's not overly big. What's more important to me is that it saves space at the socket itself so that it doesn't obstruct the other plugs in the same power strip.
Regarding the position of the mounting holes with relation to the FSP cages, I think you could move the holes directly under the cages and use a post under the board instead of a screw through the board. As you intend to apply a downward force through thermal pads at this point you only need to achieve a locating point and support from underneath to keep this section of the board secure. This would eliminate the small bending force from the screw being offset from where the downwards force is applied but also free up board space and make assembly easier
YES. I would be assuming you would want dmesg from the syslog pertaining to the two extra chips sent "home". In regards to the power supply, I prefer the Ankur. Your first choice would be another brick that needs to be managed on the person's desk or rack. I do like you are going with USB-C over barrel adaptor. The only barrel adaptors I like are the bayonet ones that can twist lock on. Otherwise, they will eventually wiggle off. Where I plan to put it, I have a USB-C power hub. So wouldn't need the adapter. As far as a timeline for me, I was suppose to be getting fibre this month but the phone company is saying 3-6 months 😐 Thank you for these continuing updates.
The last power supply is obviously the best one, from the ones you've showed. Some standard cables are really useful. If someone wants to quickly power it up and test it, when setting at his desk, and his receptacle in the wall is hard to reach, .. then he can like unplug his 2nd monitor or laptop charger and use that cable to power the router. It's stuff like that.
Side note, for the power brick, though I would prefer something internal that could be separate from the main board and have some extra protections on it and be bypassed if need be, check out ChargerLAB for other brick ideas/options and teardowns. However, I would also take an option for no UCB-C brick and a list of recamended to pick from or if you have a fancy USB-C PDU or rack mount USB-C PSU already, then it's just extra stuff.
YES! Whether it's NXP or not is depending on how fast you can deliver the first iteration of the router. As far as it's up to your standard and takes less time (usually less $ too). That's a good choice.
Absolutely YES, what you are attempting take guts, perseverance and determination. What you propose is exactly the kit I've wanted for my homelab!
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Bravo. Jedva cekam da pustite ruter u prodaju. BTW, izgled napajanja za profesionalni uredjaj koji stoji u nekoj server sali nije toliko bitan ali rack kit za laku montazu bi bio super.
While I agree grounding isn't a deal breaker, I still would like to see support for it. Like if it's powered by USB-C and the adapter it comes with doesn't support grounding, at least build grounding in so I can use my own adapter that is grounded. I prefer having everything in my network rack be grounded, even if the UPS is grounded there can still be issues with ground fault inside the rack. Also, if waste is a concern, maybe let the customer buy it with or without a power adapter. Even if the savings is only $5 or something I'd rather get it without and use my own.
I love the C7 (the last one you showed) one I didn't expect something that small the great benefit of that one is you won't have a big bulge on your power plug that you will end up plugging in a power bar and find out you can only use 2 out of the 3 sockets because your adapter blocks it. but if its USB-C I would also consider making it optional to ship without, I got lots of those now. for the closed source binary I'm good with that, you can't have everything open source.
+1, also I'm a fan of this form factor because some sockets are very finnicky, and phone-style chargers can be a bit annoying in some scenarios. Cables being pulled, charger falling out, inteference with other nearby stuff.. The last one is a great option.
I also prefer the last power supply. Using a C7 cable is also nice, as there will be no size restrictions with the sockets on the same power point/power strip/UPS.
I think what OpenWRT supports is hardware offloading for brdging/VLAN traffic to a switch chip (wifi router with multiple UTP ports), my guess is, maybe some switch chips support some pretty advanced 'filters' or whatever they do. Just look at how much Mikrotik can offload to hardware, but maybe that's their own chip design ?
MikroTik don't use custom chips. They often use high-end Marvell Prestera switch chips in combination with Qualcomm Atheros CPUs/SoCs. All the offloading is handled by the switch chip. They don't actually have custom hardware for it.
Funny you mention MacBook as an example for using ungrounded chargers since their body gives your hands the distinct tingling feeling when plugged with Apple's charger, but not with any grounded third party one. It is even giving you a static discharge on touch if you don't ground it with your body, e.g. when using external mouse & kb. Using the small TouchID button on TouchBar models in that case was unforgettable. The irony is that adapter holding peg on Apple's charger IS a ground terminal. And UK adapter has a copper (not plastic) ground pin - but they are not connected! Well, in case of a router there will probably be a plastic body, not metal, and no one would be touching it on a daily basis. Edit: oh, later you mention it is going to have aluminum enclosure. Oh well...
YES I will take an early development kit. I’d be willing to pledge up to $200. This device is unique in that it has an ASIC for packet processing. I have a lot of VLANs in my homelab and really want a dedicated low-power appliance to route 10gbps between them. Trying to do this in software, I can’t hit 10gbps on a single stream. My use case is all single stream / single threaded. A comparable unit from Mikrotik is about this price (600 euro). Your router will be more fun to play with in my lab 🤓 The ASIC being proprietary closed source does not bother me as long as it works.
The downward facing usb c port found in Belkin chargers is what is needed. Routers are often found in cabinets in laundry rooms. These cabinets have limited space width wise. A downward facing usb port helps.
I’ve been following your progress since the beginning. I think this is the first time I feel we are not choosing the best. I would personally not want an in-line adapter - the one you chose. It’s a pain to place it in rack / cabinet / behind desks / whatever. Also the connectors are not great - the mains line ones. I would love a small brick like Anker that has a footprint within the size of the plug (so that it doesn’t block plugs around it if used in a rack supply or home power extension strips. Then I would love the wire to come out from top - again like anker - for same reason as above. A tiny and super dim LED on the adapter is super handy.
I really appreciate the educational value of your router videos showing each step and how it all goes. Although I'm definitely not interested in buying the router (it's way too expensive for my budget), just observing the journey and compromises that need to be made I can see it's not as straight forward as people think.
Started binge watching your videos today, and all I can say is I find them very interesting. Still need to catch up fully but so far I am enjoying watching you document your process of this.
You said some very key words, I have lots of these, many of us also have many of those and access to them cheaply. Just put the specs and examples like you gave 🤙🏼
3:20 Actually, Apple 1st-Party MacBook chargers tend to support the earth pin on plugs, despite using the standard "Figure of Eight" lead, on the official charging cable, there should be a metal disc which connects to a slot in the Wall Adapter, which only the MacBook chargers have, i.e. in the Plug-adaptor there is a piece of conductive metal which makes the Apple lead support grounding, which for some reason the traditional iPad/iPhone version did not include, at least for the UK/BS1363 plug standard markets.
YES! Thanks very much for the update. Great progress. A few suggestions: locking barrel jack, or internal PSU like Beelink has done on some of its mini computers - then all you need is a power cable (?), PoE capability would be a great option.
I would rather want a cheaper router. Your take on the AliExpress variants was good, but remember that this is for consumers and semi-prosumers. This is not for enterprise use (though it could be). I think, correct me if I'm wrong, most people would prefer an N100 powered 10 GbE router at $200, that delivers 100% of the promises 90% of the time, than a $400 (or more) version that delivers 100% of the promise 100% of the time.
Given that the order size isn't going to be huge I suspect the release version is likely to be at a minimum of 400. This might not be the project for you if 200 is what you were expecting.
What we really need is quad band for a dedicated wireless back haul if wiring isn't an option. WiFi 7 is the way to go. Better hand off between nodes is what we need for mesh networks.
Pretty awesome project. Got no particular use case for a 10 gig router though nor the budget for it at this time, but wishing you success with this. More quality open source hardware out there would be great.
That credit card-shaped power supply looks really cool. My main gripe with small device power supplies are their stiff and crooked cables, always tied tightly with twist ties, never getting straight ever. It would be even cooler still if you bundled the router and PSU with silicone-sleeved soft and pliable cables that want to stay straight when let loose 👍
I'll definitely do a dedicated video on the cables once we get there - I enjoy researching this stuff because I learn a lot about all the possibilities there are, not to mention I get to show all of them to my viewers which makes it even more fun! 🙌
My absolute favorite 65ish watt GAN charger comes from INVZI. The invzi ganhub 67W. Its really small. smaller than the anker one and it looks great imo. The adapters look ok and they even make an extension cord. AOHI makes a nice 30W GAN charger as well. not sure how their adapters looks but their new 30w looks nice with changeable colored plates.
This Video was the kick i needed *and the prior videos too*. my home network does not know whats about to hit it...just going to keep my current router until this beast drops.
the anker brick looks just like the us one with an adapter, theres plenty of room to fit the US prongs inside and i feel like a 20W or 25W brick would be fine, if people need more power they can use a bigger one
YES!!!! Can't wait to use it! I have a 10Gbit line (init7) and my current router sucks, so I want to support this project and I want to support this dream you have!
YES! lol. I'm interesting in the RM version too. Yeah for the price you could do a lot with old hardware or VMs, but I guess everyone's homelab journey is different.
I personally also like the smallest one, especially since it's similar to the framework 16 USB C Charger (which I also like). It's small, efficient (due to GaN), and perhaps most importantly, has completely removable cables. Like you said, this makes it super flexible, allowing even end users to get I.E. a shorter C to C cable that fits the mounting better. I think making it an optional part of the package would be great if the router is USB C PD capable, as people may already have something they either have on hand or can purchase locally thats cheaper for both parties. Again, very similar to how Framework handles power cords/RAM and storage.
The one you like the most is also my preferred. Direct wall connection for router would be always pain as I like to hide it somewhere and 2 cables enables it much more.
For PSU's I just care about efficiency and reliability. Once I set up the router I don't ever think about it again and this includes aesthetics or cable type.
Having a PSU like your favourite would be a dream for me. All the routers I have used or seen in Australia have all required use of a barrel jack style AC Adapter!
RE Power supply .. I always prefer in-line transformer as opposed to "wall warts" with adapters, they latter often have space issues with plugging in to multi-plug power strips. And also as you mention, will reduce strain on the socket.
If it's USBC then we can reuse older 18w-20w anker as I'm using 65W gan. Even PoE works. I'm reusing dc adapter. I went with omada ax3000 and really happy with stability and speed from consumer router or access point. In case thermal pad can't be squished you can use k5 Pro or graphene sheet based adhesive pad which can transfer heat pretty quickly. The idle temps will be higher but active or sustained temps will be lot less
Interested in a deposit for an ALU early adopter edition, and would love to have it rack mountable (could the rack mountable version have removable ears to be usable on a desktop/shelf instead of in a rack?)
Power Supply: I do care, since the power supply and its dimensions play a part in the "space" you have available: wether it's the rack or a case or just the connector-strip - it alwas matters
As for power adapters, I always prefer the ones where you can use a C5, C7 or C13/C15 connector and a cable so you can decide the length yourself and match it to any outlet in your rack or server/network cabinet. I really have a dislike (you could almost call it hate) for these types of adapters that use up more than one outlet on the power strip (especially here in Germany) because they are so bulky that they cover a slot or two next to it - regardless of whether it's a power supply with a barrel plug or a fixed USB-C cable (like on Raspis, for example)
Whichever PSU you go for, I just highly prefer that the connector that actually goes into the wall doesn't interfere with the other plugs next to it since I want to use either a surge protector or a UPS . I think this is a bigger issue with the North American plug than with the EU one since the EU plugs are bigger and you rarely see a lot of plugs together.
On the power supply side of things: I like, when the device won't move form the shelf it will reside and doesn't need to be slim as possible, that the power supply is in the form factor. Just plug a stupid cable and job done. Usually internal power supply have better longevity, but that is only my personnal experience.
Open source is the future. With all the companies doing awful things with privacy especially. For a V1, I can understand the "easiest" route of closed source. But, maybe openwrt could help you with that part. Also, a little headroom for adguard DNS or similar and other network related program can be a plus. The QNAP QuCPE is a good example of that turn in networking device. As of today, if I would take the smallest QuCPE as a router (with the mikrotik OS as a VM), but last time I checked the price, it's not for advance home use, and that's sad. (And QTS, the OS of QNAP is open source!) Maybe you could make your router a BYOS device? (Bring your own Software) But hey, as a V1, do the easiest route for you. (EDIT: I have to relisten the licensing/close source part as you talk about openwrt at the end)
YES! I agree with others here that you shouldn't worry about the power adapter. As long as it's a USB C PD port, then that would be a much better option for myself and the environment. If Apple gets away with it for their phones, I think it's telling how many USB C power adapters are out in the world already. The person who'd be into this would likely 1) Already have a bunch of sufficient, compatible adapters OR 2) Will likely prefer buying their own power adapter that better fits their needs elsewhere.
For the PSU, I don't mind what you pick. The slim box and Anker adapters both look amazing. The software being closed source is a bit of a turn off, but for performance it seems like a fair trade off. For the dev board I would love to get my hand on the router as soon as possible, but don't think there would be a good enough need for me to get it until the founders edition comes out.
Personal opinions... I hope you'll enjoy 1: provided PSU *must* have less possible failpoints possible. Person that will install that should not be concerded by accidental unplug of the USB cable from the device or from the PSU. IMVHO a embedded cord is a more practical solution, feel free to consider any reliable and cheap options for your logistic arrangement. A good PSU must be efficient, powerful enough in long term and tremendously reliable. Market-ready products can achieve 6-7 years of continuous use, you should aim close to 50.000 hrs MTBF for a consumer-grade equipment. Cooler is a nice touch (less necessity to waste energy as heat) visually appealing... probably not the most important feature. 2: a simple plastic bracket with a screw close to USB-C port for power could help avoid unwanted unplugs. USB-C can stand some traction and some barrel jacks can be on the same ballpark... however do not have the same pull resistance that a screwed/baloon connector have. For the plastic enclosure, it's a simple female brass plug hot molded into, for the passive cooling is a tapped hole. 4: the "blob" software feature is... on subscription. At this stage i'm not expecting from the company to subsidize the license from NXP. This is the preface for your subscription plan for the distro, for achieve the "full potential" of the SoC? Without that feature, more power is wasted and the full silicon capabilities are not available. Intel stepped back from "license" features on CPUs, embedded market have... different rules. 5: deliver mid 202*5* a "high-end router"... with 3 1GBE ports? *Today* 1gbe is... budget class networking. 2.5gbe it's simply mandatory or drop "high end" might be a better focused way to communicate the product 6: deliver mid 202*5* a "high-end router".. with OpenWRT? I'm aware that maybe i won't have the same grunt of two good SFP+ interfaces, but today with ~500 EUR i can access two boxes 6x2.5GBE RJ45 devices for installing... any x86-compatible distro, starting from OpenWRT, (ANY)sense, Endian Firewall, VyOS. And having today the roughly the same level of certification an support of the current evaluation kit: close to "disposable hardware". 9 months ago ServeTheHome showed a box with 4 SFP+, 5 2.5GBe that can be delivered today roughly at 400 EUR with 16gb ram and 256gb SSD or roughly 300 eur if anyone has some spare ram and SSD to insert. Is not as power efficient, but can "out of the box" run x86 vitualizers and softwares. It's on the same market segment? No, has roughly the same price, even without the same performance promises. As "warranty" products with well known companies behind... -For ~800 EUR a 2x 10Gbe + 4 2.5GBE business grade rack mountable router from a quite well known brand. -Changing company, a 5 x 2.5gbe port router for less than 200 USD. -Changing company and country, a 200k hours MTBF router, 36W redundant power, passive cooled 16 1GBE ports + 2 SFP+ ports for roughly 450 EUR. They do not match your current (alleged) tech sheet, not even roughly, they do not match the alleged price point. But they are here, with warranty, with support, with well known and acclaimed software suite not rough, but polished and well received form the market. But with "high end" words into communication, high end should be "everything" -specs -options -support -reliability -software features or distro level (for the one officially supported). Many network brands hit the market with rev 1 hardware (roughly only to be "cheaped out" later revisions) and "beta" software, more or less, so at least for software you can play close call. However, if the software cannot deliver since beginning a smooth enough experience... it will be a wild ride ;-)
Wow, thank you for taking the time to write this! I agree with the most of your points, except 5. I'd argue that three gigabit ports are more of a "fallback" feature and the two 10Gb should provide plenty of bandwidth to spread them out by a switch. And as of "high end" I preparing a video about this very topic, in which I'll discuss what I consider to be high-end. And we agree on pretty much everything here.
I typically prefer grounded power supplies but so few companies make them (at least in the consumer space). I haven’t had any issues with the non-grounded USB-C bricks I’ve used so I wouldn’t think it would be a problem, but I’m not an EE
Hi Tomaz, love the project! In this video you have referenced a waitlist for the router but I have not been able to find it. Please publicise it more for people who are interested like me! I want you to be able to quickly take my money when you are ready for it :)
If I were you, I would configure your device with a standard DC barrel jack and allow it to have redundant power supplies. It’s highly sought after to have redundant power supplies in our redundant when architecture from two separate power sources for ultimate uptime it’s a feature of some premium devices out there an inexpensive addition to your device
Some cheaper SFP modules get really hot. it will make a difference compared to good new ones. especially the cheap 30 meter 10G non-optic versions get really hot. Also XGS-PON is a bit different like the Zaram ZXOS11NPI and the FS XGS-ONU-25-20NI. Also please make sure the ASIC also handles PPPoE since loads of providers still use this otherwise it will grind to a halt with high speed PPPoE. Security updates are also important, it does not matter for me if it is closed source but the security updates are important, and the PPPoE ASIC support.
On the closed sourced binary subject : To me, it's not a deal breaker.. But if I buy such a device, I would love to be able to tamper with it a little bit (building my own distro etc..). Does the NXP licensing and the use of their CPU will prevent me from building a Linux kernel for example ? To be fair and honest, I think this use-case is niche, and does not represent what the majority of people will do. One other thing I want to point out : Personnaly I might be interested in only buying the board, fully populated, but will not really have the use for a case. I would see it more as a fancy cool-looking raspberry pi that is more network oriented, like a Banana Pi BPI-R3 for example. Once again : this is not a common use-case. But I think it will not add a huge cost for you guys to sell a case-less version, I think, but I might be wrong ! Keep up the good work, you're doing great ! PS : I really love the aesthetic of the logo you created for the company. I would love to support the project by buying a shirt or a hoodie. It might be a cool way for you guys to make some money.
So, the way I understand it (because we don't have the evaluation software for the ASK yet), is that basically it's just a binary that NXP provides that we have to run, on top of a couple mandatory kernel modules this binary needs. So it should be possible to pretty much plug it into whatever you prefer to run, as long as the CPU has DPAA. And thank you for the t-shirt suggestion, it's a really good one and will definitely talk to the team about it!
1. Please make sure that the PSU which is selected is of a commonly available voltage (12v with 5.5mmOD/2.1mmID or 19/20v with 7.4mm laptop style), and if USB-C that it is PD 3.0 compliant with disconnectable cord. 2. Please make it a lump on a wire, not wall wart, not all PDU/power strips have the plugs oriented the right way, and verticality can get in the way more than some extra cord. Grounding is not as important IMO. 3. Lastly, no C5/C6 "cloverleaf" or "micky mouse" crap :-P Please use either C7/C8 for ungrounded/2pole or C13/C14 for grounded.
YES! ground isn't necessary. Definitely prefer a Fan charger with just the tip I need. I'm mainly US based. I doubt I would be traveling with this router internationally 😅
One thing is, when choosing the PSU, make sure it's compatible with UPSs and PDUs. I want my router to be battery backed up, it came quite handy before. I might care about the aesthetics of the router, but not the PSU.
What PSU isnt compatible?
@@tendosingh5682 Schuko, and I know you get adapters, but they are bulky. C14 to C7 cables are a bit neater.
@@lukahrastovec5022 Depends on the UPS, the Eaton Ellipse PRO UPS series all have regular Schuko connections. One of those nearly caught fire in my house though so I wouldn't recommend them ;)
Battery backup should not be built in given the only available proper UPSs already on the market.
But making sure it has compatability and full functioning control for such is a must
And side not never NEVER using the still in use lunatic bs APC uses of their custom usb to rj45 craptacular cord... an industry std usb cable is far better for such for obvious reasons lol
@@konnorj6442 god i am, glad my APC is so old that it just has the proprietary RS232 cable
If it takes a USBC input, I don’t particularly care which adapter it comes with. If it is a barrel or anything else, something like the last option would be my preference.
With regard to the closed source binary, I have no issue with it, provided the vendor can’t kill it remotely once the license expires.
Thanks for the feedback!
Yeah I'm rapidly reaching the point where if the device pulls less power than a leaf-blower, I'm hoping for a USB-C port. I'm sick of all the random power bricks & wall warts.
I agree with the license bit. That's why the company I work for stopped using Sofos devices. I still have several units sitting in storage. Expensive paper weights....
there is no telling what the vendor can do, it's closed source
Raw barrel port is so much useful in many scenarios! Easy to do small remote power back systems etc
I wouldn’t bother supplying a power supply if it’s usbc just recommended one it will save you shipping costs as you can reduce the box size
I second the no power supply necessary. Might give the option.
I think you can use the PD protocol to make sure the user power supply is good enough before booting, that would avoid instabilities.
And I would like to point out that most of us ready to put up money to be early adopters of your router are likely to have a bunch of spare power supplies sitting around anyway. By not including a power supply, at least for these, you might well get better feedback on just what is required, and which countries/regions require it.
Make power supply great ag…. Sorry I mean optional 😂
I'm not sure if that's a good idea. If people use shit USB-C Power Supplies that could cause issues which would need to be troubleshot by support, which would drive up cost again.
It would be better to include a power supply and cable. For warranty and support reasons this should always be provided.
Please make the power cable “lockable” so it doesn’t fall out when someone moves the case
good point - I don't like these scenarios when you have to "check" if the cable is still fully in
Very good idea. But is there even such a thing as a lockable USB-C Connector/Plug?
@@ChainShinra as an easy solution it can be a feature of the case, something similar to a cable tie or a latch that holds on to the cable … there are USB-C connectors with screws but those are kind of special and uncommon
Could do it like mikrotik with tabs in the case.
@@ChainShinra Yes, USB-C has two locking variants! One with a single screw on top, another with two screws to the sides. Being compatible with that should be fairly easy, and pretty much free if they are already CNCing a case.
As a dealer/installer of residential networks, I strongly prefer "brick" type power supplies with detachable power cables. These ensure zero chance of blocking adjacent mains sockets on plug strips, etc. Better if the bricks have mounting ears for screwing to wall or zip-tying to rack/shelf.
THIS! zero chance of blocking adjacent mains is a great feature
POE in as an optional module would be nice I'd rather use my POE brick or switch to power it than USBC.
Also do not feature creep this router to the point where people can just buy any random mini PC and add a router os on it.
Also if you need more than 5V2A use 9V2A USBPD DO NOT GO OVER 2A ON 5V.
We're going with 15V on PD.
@@tomazzaman I've seen people having issues with their chargers not supporting 15V especially if it's an older charger using an older USB C PD standard. If you can have everything work within 24W you should seriously consider using 12V instead, as even really old chargers will support that. But if 24W isn't enough I would just go up to 20V instead since that's the next highest voltage supported by older chargers. You'll have a lot less support requests and customer frustration if you stick with a more common voltage.
My laptop USB pd doesn't supply 12v but does support 5/9/15/20.
@@trevdawg94 12V is also my preferred, because it can then be used in RVs / mobile scenarios
@@trevdawg94 Woah, this is an incredibly bad idea. 12V is NOT part of the current PD spec and many adaptors including ones from the like of Anker do not offer this voltage level.
When looking at ungrounded switching power supplies, keep in mind that the 'Y capacitor' that is usually needed for filtering means the 'ground' on the DC side is weakly pulled to around half of the mains voltage. This can sometimes be felt as a small shocks when touching devices connected to such a PSU, but you especially need to ensure your design can handle this from an ESD point of view, since in 240V RMS countries, this can be up to 170V that will be discharged (possibly regularly) once your device comes into contact with something that is actually grounded.
Also, if you have no real ground reference, you cannot ground the shields of the BaseT-Ports. If they are grounded on the other side, that's fine, but if CAT-cable's shields are ungrounded on both sides, the shielding inside the cable will become like an antenna for interference, often resulting in even worse signals than without shielding in the first place.
This is why I prefer internal PSU with c14 socket.
Thanks for the explanation!
Very important. Thanks for writing this comment
To add onto that: I've had a few occurrences where Cat5 cables actually fully melted their insulators, because there was potential between ground on both sides. I'd still say definitely try to get it grounded, and grounded well. imo best would be a USB-C port in the actual router itself, so that users *can* supply their own power, but also then a PSU that you can basically clip onto the router which has a C14 socket
Honestly, i like the unifi plug. It is small. The ideal plug for me personally is a plug that is small ish, doesn't need a light and can have change the adapter to what ever to make it cheaper also multi volt. 100-250V
Also for the ground part, i would suggest adding a ground pin to the router device which the user can use. I live in a area with bad voltages so i need to ground everything. Even the lamps are grounded!
If you're going type-c, regardless of what power supply you get please have the board be PD2.0 (or higher) compliant. The amount of chargers that are 9/15/20V which I end up with makes dealing with
Definitely. I've tried our favorite PSU with a number of devices (even powering a monitor), and it all works perfectly fine. Of course, this part is easy, the certification process will be the step that determines whether I was right :)
@@tomazzamanif you can't get full certification compliance, a prominent label on-device showing safe voltage ranges would put your device above many
I'm not too against the closed source NXP software, my main concern is sounds like the type of thing that might make it hard to say update the kernel in the future and I'd imagine you'll be have to pay them for stuff like updates and security patches. It looks like they have a few different versions of the ASK with different features, I'm curious which you were considering.
Also where do I sign up for the pre-order EVK boards?
I'd rather them hire someone for similar. 40k a year is a lot, how many years are they going to be paying? It'll quickly cost more. Also open source it F that company
Honestly, this I want to both test thoroughly from tech standpoint as well as look at it from every legal angle. Will report on both in the near future.
@@tomazzamanthat voice is so annoying, please get someone else to do these videos for you!
@@gg-gn3re$40k a year is far cheaper than hiring even just one developer to build something similar.
@@Daniel15au so you're saying if I use it for 50000 years a dev is still more expensive?
I love that the cables are replaceable on both sides of the power supply!!🎉
Ehh.. my first comment went missing. So overall: please test the power supplies under different loads, check the ripple/noise. If possible, try to simulate voltage drop "spikes" on the AC side, and check out what happens with the output, when the the voltage flips back... Those should tell you, which power brick is better, and also you can measure efficiency for all of them, since those will be plugged in 24/7.
This. Also make sure that the PSU can handle really poorly stepped voltages that some consumer UPS' provide
YES!
Also, about PSUs, personally I don't mind either way and in fact if you chose Type-C input, I can source my own locally or using my existing one if it means the device will be cheaper.
About the blue connector - why not use 3x standard 4-pin fan connectors instead and just use the 1st one for power instead of fan? This way no adapters are needed at all.
CPU cost/power: I prefer not to run extra services on my firewall, but would be nice to have it fast as possible for IDS/IPS especially at higher speeds even if it means a more expensive device.
Grounding is important for high speed ethernet cables that assume correct ground for the internal shielding. Also consider the capacity of this electrical connection with every port connected with long cables +25m
I would prefer something with detachable cables on both ends, that way it can be placed where ever I want it and it's not having up precious space on a PDU or power strip. The last one you showed would be my preference. Sure, it's bulkier in general, but since the cables are the most prone to failure, they can be replaced easily.
YES!
I'd definitely be interested in purchasing an evaluation kit, for certain.
YES! Don’t care about the psu, just specify the recommended voltage. Good luck going forward and looking forward to get my hands dirty with one device
I'm probably not the target market for this as my homelab is on the smaller scale, but I do reccomend on getting it electrically grounded, either via the power supply or a grounding screw. The psu choice depends on the plug type I think, type g sockets tends to have a lot of space for other plugs, while type b sockets tends to be more tightly packed and the plug size can impede the neighboring plugs, having a standard like a 12v barrel plug or usb C PD could make it easier for users to change the psu based on their limitations/needs.
Power Adaptor: No idea, but I do like the 3 prong connector because the Earth leakage is valuable for dealing with shorts.
CPU: I like the additional headroom, while you might only use a device for a specific case, updates and things ontop can bloat and cause additional requirements over time, while you want it to be optimal and I imagine you will, the extra 'space' for calculations is always nice.
A grounded power supply isn't a big deal to me but the router should have a ground connection, usually just a screw with a serrated washer.
I would also like to see a option to buy this router without an included power supply. I also wouldn't mind a screw terminal or Phoenix power connection, just like on some MicroTik devices.
Agreed, especially the rack mount version! Grounding the chassis is a very important part of ESD and surge protection, so being able to attach a dedicated ground wire is essential.
@@DJW3lchAlso, you know, grounding the ethernet connectors.
YES!!! I'd totally love to get my hands on on of these units, especially if it supports you and the project. Keep up the great work!
Okay.. here is the third :) I noticed the isolation transformers are outside of the connector. Possibly you're awear that those RJ45 connectors are available with included magnetics (at least I have some on my project with 100M/gigabit) also is there any reason why not using connectors, which have the LEDs included inside the connector?
And finally a design idea: if this device not using more than 60W, maybe it should have PoE input as power source, same as mikrotik have multiple options :)
Maybe there are leds because of routing to front side later with sheet metal enclosure?
I'm also for PoE+ when it comes to powering possibilities
There's a reason we used transformers outside the port itself and its an aesthetic one. We wanted the enclosure to look as clean and minimal as possible, and the RJ-45 jacks that we put on were pretty much the only ones on the market that align both with the vertical USB-C jacks as well as SFP+ cages. All the others would be positioned higher (vertically), which would look misaligned.
And as for the PoE, we discussed this internally quite extensively since it's a popular suggestion. The problem is that we'd need to use PoE++ (to have some buffer), which isn't that popular yet and as such we decided it's not worth the extra component cost and complexity as of right now.
@@tomazzaman Thanks for the reply, it's understandable, also PoE is a nice addition, but most of all can live without it :)
The choice of having a ground or not is not dependent on the current level of the adapter- It's based on ground leakage in the power supply. As far as I know, you can only really get away without a ground if your enclosure is isolated. I'm not sure which country you're based in though, so regulation in your area may be different.
YES!
Something low risk like this is perfect in my mind. All things being equal, it turns out well for everyone - but if things go haywire, there's a backup. I would seriously consider ordering one (and may end up ordering it regardless of price anyways) if this was an option.
For the power supply there really are two criteria for me:
- Power efficiency
- modular / UK plug
I run my network equipment at home connected to a UPS. Adaptors and inefficient PSUs drain minutes from my run time. So I'm keen on keeping the waste power to a minimum. I don't think a missing ground will be a problem. Most if not all commercial home/small business routers run with barrel plugs on just +/- without any ground. Dont think that would be a major problem.
That supply looks fine, as long as the efficiency is alright.
yea the "looks" of a power supply is something I have not once cared about
Thanks for the feedback! 🙌
The "-" _is_ the ground. If the psu is grounded, that is.
YES, a reservation, especially for the purposes of sending a signal to larger investors, is something I would participate in! The total cost you mentioned in USD is indeed rather high for a preorder. But for those of us who don't have several tens of thousands free to invest, reducing the risk via a $50 reservation is good. I want this device to come to market. I want to buy it, as it will hit all the practical speed and feature needs of my home networking for many years, spreading its cost over time.
YES
I have no need for this thing, but your videos really have me curious about it and interested in being in on the ground floor. I have all enterprise grade equipment on my network, so this would 100% be a playtoy/curiosity, but your passion for the project and explanations and openness about how it is being created makes it of great interest to me.
A couple of other answers to your questions:
I like the PSU you showed last. For network equipment I hate having a brick with prongs since often wherever the router is at you'll have several other devices and in consumer grade too many things have bulky bricks that don't fit onto a power strip or UPS back panel. Having a cord, even a short one, eliminates the problem. Plus with having both sides being plug-able, it's infinitely more repairable. if a cord fails from too much flex, wear from rubbing against other stuff,, or even a rodent getting at it, its easy to swap in a new cord!
As for the closed source code, it's not great, but if you're going to have it then keep the extra performance, or at least have two models, one with the performance at a higher price tag, the other cheaper, but you get only what you need performance-wise. I'd just ask that you always be on the lookout for an open source alternative to replace the closed source code and hardware.
You should ground them! Otherwise you could have like 100 V AC on the USB C cable. The current would be super low, but it's still there and it could introduce noise into signals or even cause electrical issues such as a very light shock and sparks.
My thoughts on the power supply:
I don't like power supplies which block the socket next to itself, so I prefer the ones with a cable to the socket. Even those that are quite slim can be blocking sometimes, especially when the sockets are aligned at an 45° angle
On the performance:
I don't want to run any complex software on my router that isn't routing something or has a specific dependency on the router like network filtering or a firewall.
I like to have a single responsibility principle (taken from software dev) for my hardware, so a NAS is it's own VM/Machine and not a feature of the server
Also:
YES!
I would preorder it for a small deposit. I like to have full control over my hardware and watching your videos shows me what to expect and that's a huge win for me, even if it is a bit more expensive.
YES!
I'll buy one evaluation kit.
But hopefully you'll open all documentation for self installing and booting a custom linux operating system. I'm not very interested in running OpenWRT all the time. Your project is a perfect playground to create a cool router software from scratch or at least nearly from scratch.
The fibre optics cables on your table fill me with determination
I quite despise the tingle of leakage current for equipment using ungrounded switching supplies. If you won’t consider a good grounded supply, I think exclude it entirely and leave it to the buyer to acquire their own. Or at minimum, provide the option to purchase without.
I'm really not comfortable with nxp or their "blackbox". Is there any way you could just give it the necessary hardware and processing power and let the community figure out the software?
Software is always going to have issues going above a few Gbps, Intel x86 has the raw power, but it's expensive in power and needs a lot of custom work to get Linux to go "line rate"
ASIC puts this into a whole different class. No longer is it's competition some Chinese mini-pc in a tin case. This would be a router using what the likes of Cisco, juniper and Arista have been doing for years.
He can't really. For some reason he's bet the farm on a particular ARM SoC that needs itss hardware acceleration to achieve the advertised speeds.
HW offload is not supported for the SoC in official OpenWRT etc.
You will be dependent on a fork for the life of the product
I wouldn't care about the power supply size - as long as it's not overly big. What's more important to me is that it saves space at the socket itself so that it doesn't obstruct the other plugs in the same power strip.
Those FlexOptics reprogrammers are great devices. I saw a couple of collegues use them to reflash transceivers. Quick and easy.
Regarding the position of the mounting holes with relation to the FSP cages, I think you could move the holes directly under the cages and use a post under the board instead of a screw through the board. As you intend to apply a downward force through thermal pads at this point you only need to achieve a locating point and support from underneath to keep this section of the board secure. This would eliminate the small bending force from the screw being offset from where the downwards force is applied but also free up board space and make assembly easier
I'd prefer a power supply with a cable for the wall plug. I won't be able to fit a bulky supply next to other plugs in a standard Swiss power socket.
eeeey Schwiizer in da house
YES. I would be assuming you would want dmesg from the syslog pertaining to the two extra chips sent "home". In regards to the power supply, I prefer the Ankur. Your first choice would be another brick that needs to be managed on the person's desk or rack. I do like you are going with USB-C over barrel adaptor. The only barrel adaptors I like are the bayonet ones that can twist lock on. Otherwise, they will eventually wiggle off. Where I plan to put it, I have a USB-C power hub. So wouldn't need the adapter. As far as a timeline for me, I was suppose to be getting fibre this month but the phone company is saying 3-6 months 😐 Thank you for these continuing updates.
Hurray! I am hyped for this project!
The last power supply is obviously the best one, from the ones you've showed.
Some standard cables are really useful. If someone wants to quickly power it up and test it, when setting at his desk, and his receptacle in the wall is hard to reach, .. then he can like unplug his 2nd monitor or laptop charger and use that cable to power the router. It's stuff like that.
Side note, for the power brick, though I would prefer something internal that could be separate from the main board and have some extra protections on it and be bypassed if need be, check out ChargerLAB for other brick ideas/options and teardowns. However, I would also take an option for no UCB-C brick and a list of recamended to pick from or if you have a fancy USB-C PDU or rack mount USB-C PSU already, then it's just extra stuff.
YES!
Whether it's NXP or not is depending on how fast you can deliver the first iteration of the router. As far as it's up to your standard and takes less time (usually less $ too). That's a good choice.
Absolutely YES, what you are attempting take guts, perseverance and determination. What you propose is exactly the kit I've wanted for my homelab!
Bravo. Jedva cekam da pustite ruter u prodaju. BTW, izgled napajanja za profesionalni uredjaj koji stoji u nekoj server sali nije toliko bitan ali rack kit za laku montazu bi bio super.
For a stationary device the power efficency is imo more important than size. Formwise I prever the bricks over the "Phone chargers"
The lunch spot is Brasserie Zedel if anybody is interested, they do a nice pre show menu also!
yo thegod of chip dizign is heer if anyons intrsted. he nmakes the gamer cpu foreman
Pardon?
Zedel, yes - that's the one! Thanks!
While I agree grounding isn't a deal breaker, I still would like to see support for it. Like if it's powered by USB-C and the adapter it comes with doesn't support grounding, at least build grounding in so I can use my own adapter that is grounded. I prefer having everything in my network rack be grounded, even if the UPS is grounded there can still be issues with ground fault inside the rack.
Also, if waste is a concern, maybe let the customer buy it with or without a power adapter. Even if the savings is only $5 or something I'd rather get it without and use my own.
I love the C7 (the last one you showed) one I didn't expect something that small the great benefit of that one is you won't have a big bulge on your power plug that you will end up plugging in a power bar and find out you can only use 2 out of the 3 sockets because your adapter blocks it. but if its USB-C I would also consider making it optional to ship without, I got lots of those now.
for the closed source binary I'm good with that, you can't have everything open source.
I think the last PSU is the best one. Even though it's "overkill" power wise. Just because it's easy to replace the cables on both ends
+1, also I'm a fan of this form factor because some sockets are very finnicky, and phone-style chargers can be a bit annoying in some scenarios. Cables being pulled, charger falling out, inteference with other nearby stuff.. The last one is a great option.
I also prefer the last power supply. Using a C7 cable is also nice, as there will be no size restrictions with the sockets on the same power point/power strip/UPS.
Bravo Tomaž, zanimiv projekt! Pa hvala ker deliš ta insiderski vpogled v to kako nastane ena taka mašina ... Samo dalje!
I think what OpenWRT supports is hardware offloading for brdging/VLAN traffic to a switch chip (wifi router with multiple UTP ports), my guess is, maybe some switch chips support some pretty advanced 'filters' or whatever they do. Just look at how much Mikrotik can offload to hardware, but maybe that's their own chip design ?
MikroTik don't use custom chips. They often use high-end Marvell Prestera switch chips in combination with Qualcomm Atheros CPUs/SoCs.
All the offloading is handled by the switch chip. They don't actually have custom hardware for it.
@@Daniel15au ahh, OK, then the option to do the same exists,
Funny you mention MacBook as an example for using ungrounded chargers since their body gives your hands the distinct tingling feeling when plugged with Apple's charger, but not with any grounded third party one. It is even giving you a static discharge on touch if you don't ground it with your body, e.g. when using external mouse & kb. Using the small TouchID button on TouchBar models in that case was unforgettable.
The irony is that adapter holding peg on Apple's charger IS a ground terminal. And UK adapter has a copper (not plastic) ground pin - but they are not connected!
Well, in case of a router there will probably be a plastic body, not metal, and no one would be touching it on a daily basis.
Edit: oh, later you mention it is going to have aluminum enclosure. Oh well...
YES
I will take an early development kit. I’d be willing to pledge up to $200.
This device is unique in that it has an ASIC for packet processing. I have a lot of VLANs in my homelab and really want a dedicated low-power appliance to route 10gbps between them. Trying to do this in software, I can’t hit 10gbps on a single stream. My use case is all single stream / single threaded.
A comparable unit from Mikrotik is about this price (600 euro). Your router will be more fun to play with in my lab 🤓
The ASIC being proprietary closed source does not bother me as long as it works.
The downward facing usb c port found in Belkin chargers is what is needed. Routers are often found in cabinets in laundry rooms. These cabinets have limited space width wise. A downward facing usb port helps.
I’ve been following your progress since the beginning. I think this is the first time I feel we are not choosing the best.
I would personally not want an in-line adapter - the one you chose. It’s a pain to place it in rack / cabinet / behind desks / whatever. Also the connectors are not great - the mains line ones.
I would love a small brick like Anker that has a footprint within the size of the plug (so that it doesn’t block plugs around it if used in a rack supply or home power extension strips.
Then I would love the wire to come out from top - again like anker - for same reason as above.
A tiny and super dim LED on the adapter is super handy.
I really appreciate the educational value of your router videos showing each step and how it all goes. Although I'm definitely not interested in buying the router (it's way too expensive for my budget), just observing the journey and compromises that need to be made I can see it's not as straight forward as people think.
Started binge watching your videos today, and all I can say is I find them very interesting. Still need to catch up fully but so far I am enjoying watching you document your process of this.
YES!
Can’t wait for getting my hands on it. It would be nice to place containers on it, but I’m really a fan of free software
You said some very key words, I have lots of these, many of us also have many of those and access to them cheaply. Just put the specs and examples like you gave 🤙🏼
3:20 Actually, Apple 1st-Party MacBook chargers tend to support the earth pin on plugs, despite using the standard "Figure of Eight" lead, on the official charging cable, there should be a metal disc which connects to a slot in the Wall Adapter, which only the MacBook chargers have, i.e. in the Plug-adaptor there is a piece of conductive metal which makes the Apple lead support grounding, which for some reason the traditional iPad/iPhone version did not include, at least for the UK/BS1363 plug standard markets.
YES! Thanks very much for the update. Great progress. A few suggestions: locking barrel jack, or internal PSU like Beelink has done on some of its mini computers - then all you need is a power cable (?), PoE capability would be a great option.
YES - I am interested - PSU: The one you selected seems fine - no need to downscale the power.
I would rather want a cheaper router. Your take on the AliExpress variants was good, but remember that this is for consumers and semi-prosumers. This is not for enterprise use (though it could be). I think, correct me if I'm wrong, most people would prefer an N100 powered 10 GbE router at $200, that delivers 100% of the promises 90% of the time, than a $400 (or more) version that delivers 100% of the promise 100% of the time.
@@mortenmoulder N100 is a great chip for a firewall/router 👍
Given that the order size isn't going to be huge I suspect the release version is likely to be at a minimum of 400. This might not be the project for you if 200 is what you were expecting.
@@comicalhexical You are buying overpriced cases and looks with this product not necessarily a good router.
@@comicalhexicalI would bet it's closer to 1000
@@gorgonbertN100 doesn't support Intel QAT and struggles to maintain 10Gbps NAT speeds.
What we really need is quad band for a dedicated wireless back haul if wiring isn't an option. WiFi 7 is the way to go. Better hand off between nodes is what we need for mesh networks.
Pretty awesome project. Got no particular use case for a 10 gig router though nor the budget for it at this time, but wishing you success with this. More quality open source hardware out there would be great.
That credit card-shaped power supply looks really cool. My main gripe with small device power supplies are their stiff and crooked cables, always tied tightly with twist ties, never getting straight ever. It would be even cooler still if you bundled the router and PSU with silicone-sleeved soft and pliable cables that want to stay straight when let loose 👍
I'll definitely do a dedicated video on the cables once we get there - I enjoy researching this stuff because I learn a lot about all the possibilities there are, not to mention I get to show all of them to my viewers which makes it even more fun! 🙌
My absolute favorite 65ish watt GAN charger comes from INVZI. The invzi ganhub 67W. Its really small. smaller than the anker one and it looks great imo. The adapters look ok and they even make an extension cord. AOHI makes a nice 30W GAN charger as well. not sure how their adapters looks but their new 30w looks nice with changeable colored plates.
This Video was the kick i needed *and the prior videos too*. my home network does not know whats about to hit it...just going to keep my current router until this beast drops.
Maybe a screw in the back for grounding, any PSU will do but the last one seems to be the best choice and a big YES!
the anker brick looks just like the us one with an adapter, theres plenty of room to fit the US prongs inside
and i feel like a 20W or 25W brick would be fine, if people need more power they can use a bigger one
YES!!!!
Can't wait to use it! I have a 10Gbit line (init7) and my current router sucks, so I want to support this project and I want to support this dream you have!
Lucky Swiss citizen 😁 hope one day in France I could get 25gbps haha
@@W4ReLL good catch 😉 tbh, 25gbps is too much. Most PCs and most servers can't handle this.
@@Delijohn yes, my local network is at 56gbps so the only limit is the wan 😁
@@W4ReLL wow 🔥
@@Delijohn mellanox connect x-3 🙂 hope you'll enjoy this router!
YES! lol. I'm interesting in the RM version too. Yeah for the price you could do a lot with old hardware or VMs, but I guess everyone's homelab journey is different.
I personally also like the smallest one, especially since it's similar to the framework 16 USB C Charger (which I also like). It's small, efficient (due to GaN), and perhaps most importantly, has completely removable cables. Like you said, this makes it super flexible, allowing even end users to get I.E. a shorter C to C cable that fits the mounting better. I think making it an optional part of the package would be great if the router is USB C PD capable, as people may already have something they either have on hand or can purchase locally thats cheaper for both parties. Again, very similar to how Framework handles power cords/RAM and storage.
The one you like the most is also my preferred. Direct wall connection for router would be always pain as I like to hide it somewhere and 2 cables enables it much more.
For PSU's I just care about efficiency and reliability. Once I set up the router I don't ever think about it again and this includes aesthetics or cable type.
I'm glad you are taking so much pride in ever component including the PSU. Personally I don't think too much about the PSU.
Having a PSU like your favourite would be a dream for me. All the routers I have used or seen in Australia have all required use of a barrel jack style AC Adapter!
RE Power supply .. I always prefer in-line transformer as opposed to "wall warts" with adapters, they latter often have space issues with plugging in to multi-plug power strips. And also as you mention, will reduce strain on the socket.
YES, if you will support POE input on the rack-mount version
If it's USBC then we can reuse older 18w-20w anker as I'm using 65W gan. Even PoE works. I'm reusing dc adapter. I went with omada ax3000 and really happy with stability and speed from consumer router or access point.
In case thermal pad can't be squished you can use k5 Pro or graphene sheet based adhesive pad which can transfer heat pretty quickly. The idle temps will be higher but active or sustained temps will be lot less
Interested in a deposit for an ALU early adopter edition, and would love to have it rack mountable (could the rack mountable version have removable ears to be usable on a desktop/shelf instead of in a rack?)
Power Supply: I do care, since the power supply and its dimensions play a part in the "space" you have available: wether it's the rack or a case or just the connector-strip - it alwas matters
Any way of putting the power supply in the router box with a barrel a twp or three prong connector to the wall power?
As for power adapters, I always prefer the ones where you can use a C5, C7 or C13/C15 connector and a cable so you can decide the length yourself and match it to any outlet in your rack or server/network cabinet.
I really have a dislike (you could almost call it hate) for these types of adapters that use up more than one outlet on the power strip (especially here in Germany) because they are so bulky that they cover a slot or two next to it - regardless of whether it's a power supply with a barrel plug or a fixed USB-C cable (like on Raspis, for example)
Whichever PSU you go for, I just highly prefer that the connector that actually goes into the wall doesn't interfere with the other plugs next to it since I want to use either a surge protector or a UPS . I think this is a bigger issue with the North American plug than with the EU one since the EU plugs are bigger and you rarely see a lot of plugs together.
On the power supply side of things:
I like, when the device won't move form the shelf it will reside and doesn't need to be slim as possible, that the power supply is in the form factor.
Just plug a stupid cable and job done. Usually internal power supply have better longevity, but that is only my personnal experience.
Open source is the future. With all the companies doing awful things with privacy especially. For a V1, I can understand the "easiest" route of closed source. But, maybe openwrt could help you with that part. Also, a little headroom for adguard DNS or similar and other network related program can be a plus. The QNAP QuCPE is a good example of that turn in networking device. As of today, if I would take the smallest QuCPE as a router (with the mikrotik OS as a VM), but last time I checked the price, it's not for advance home use, and that's sad. (And QTS, the OS of QNAP is open source!)
Maybe you could make your router a BYOS device? (Bring your own Software)
But hey, as a V1, do the easiest route for you.
(EDIT: I have to relisten the licensing/close source part as you talk about openwrt at the end)
YES! I agree with others here that you shouldn't worry about the power adapter. As long as it's a USB C PD port, then that would be a much better option for myself and the environment. If Apple gets away with it for their phones, I think it's telling how many USB C power adapters are out in the world already. The person who'd be into this would likely 1) Already have a bunch of sufficient, compatible adapters OR 2) Will likely prefer buying their own power adapter that better fits their needs elsewhere.
For the PSU, I don't mind what you pick. The slim box and Anker adapters both look amazing. The software being closed source is a bit of a turn off, but for performance it seems like a fair trade off. For the dev board I would love to get my hand on the router as soon as possible, but don't think there would be a good enough need for me to get it until the founders edition comes out.
Personal opinions... I hope you'll enjoy
1: provided PSU *must* have less possible failpoints possible. Person that will install that should not be concerded by accidental unplug of the USB cable from the device or from the PSU. IMVHO a embedded cord is a more practical solution, feel free to consider any reliable and cheap options for your logistic arrangement. A good PSU must be efficient, powerful enough in long term and tremendously reliable. Market-ready products can achieve 6-7 years of continuous use, you should aim close to 50.000 hrs MTBF for a consumer-grade equipment. Cooler is a nice touch (less necessity to waste energy as heat) visually appealing... probably not the most important feature.
2: a simple plastic bracket with a screw close to USB-C port for power could help avoid unwanted unplugs. USB-C can stand some traction and some barrel jacks can be on the same ballpark... however do not have the same pull resistance that a screwed/baloon connector have. For the plastic enclosure, it's a simple female brass plug hot molded into, for the passive cooling is a tapped hole.
4: the "blob" software feature is... on subscription. At this stage i'm not expecting from the company to subsidize the license from NXP. This is the preface for your subscription plan for the distro, for achieve the "full potential" of the SoC? Without that feature, more power is wasted and the full silicon capabilities are not available. Intel stepped back from "license" features on CPUs, embedded market have... different rules.
5: deliver mid 202*5* a "high-end router"... with 3 1GBE ports? *Today* 1gbe is... budget class networking. 2.5gbe it's simply mandatory or drop "high end" might be a better focused way to communicate the product
6: deliver mid 202*5* a "high-end router".. with OpenWRT? I'm aware that maybe i won't have the same grunt of two good SFP+ interfaces, but today with ~500 EUR i can access two boxes 6x2.5GBE RJ45 devices for installing... any x86-compatible distro, starting from OpenWRT, (ANY)sense, Endian Firewall, VyOS. And having today the roughly the same level of certification an support of the current evaluation kit: close to "disposable hardware". 9 months ago ServeTheHome showed a box with 4 SFP+, 5 2.5GBe that can be delivered today roughly at 400 EUR with 16gb ram and 256gb SSD or roughly 300 eur if anyone has some spare ram and SSD to insert. Is not as power efficient, but can "out of the box" run x86 vitualizers and softwares.
It's on the same market segment? No, has roughly the same price, even without the same performance promises.
As "warranty" products with well known companies behind...
-For ~800 EUR a 2x 10Gbe + 4 2.5GBE business grade rack mountable router from a quite well known brand.
-Changing company, a 5 x 2.5gbe port router for less than 200 USD.
-Changing company and country, a 200k hours MTBF router, 36W redundant power, passive cooled 16 1GBE ports + 2 SFP+ ports for roughly 450 EUR.
They do not match your current (alleged) tech sheet, not even roughly, they do not match the alleged price point. But they are here, with warranty, with support, with well known and acclaimed software suite not rough, but polished and well received form the market.
But with "high end" words into communication, high end should be "everything"
-specs
-options
-support
-reliability
-software features or distro level (for the one officially supported).
Many network brands hit the market with rev 1 hardware (roughly only to be "cheaped out" later revisions) and "beta" software, more or less, so at least for software you can play close call. However, if the software cannot deliver since beginning a smooth enough experience... it will be a wild ride ;-)
Wow, thank you for taking the time to write this! I agree with the most of your points, except 5. I'd argue that three gigabit ports are more of a "fallback" feature and the two 10Gb should provide plenty of bandwidth to spread them out by a switch.
And as of "high end" I preparing a video about this very topic, in which I'll discuss what I consider to be high-end. And we agree on pretty much everything here.
@@tomazzaman objection.
A multi ap wireless network is enough on one gbe? 🙃
Check with the PQS guy, also it needs the correct safety listing.
Wow, the beta case looks absolutely fantastic. Reminds me of Nabu Casa products. Please sell a semitransparent one please!
I typically prefer grounded power supplies but so few companies make them (at least in the consumer space). I haven’t had any issues with the non-grounded USB-C bricks I’ve used so I wouldn’t think it would be a problem, but I’m not an EE
Hi Tomaz, love the project! In this video you have referenced a waitlist for the router but I have not been able to find it. Please publicise it more for people who are interested like me! I want you to be able to quickly take my money when you are ready for it :)
19:41 did you try netfilter flow offload? It is hardware NAT in mainline kernel. Maybe you don't need blobs.
Please integrate the psu into the router. My opinion is that pro routers do need the Mains connected directly to the device.
If I were you, I would configure your device with a standard DC barrel jack and allow it to have redundant power supplies. It’s highly sought after to have redundant power supplies in our redundant when architecture from two separate power sources for ultimate uptime it’s a feature of some premium devices out there an inexpensive addition to your device
Some cheaper SFP modules get really hot. it will make a difference compared to good new ones. especially the cheap 30 meter 10G non-optic versions get really hot. Also XGS-PON is a bit different like the Zaram ZXOS11NPI and the FS XGS-ONU-25-20NI. Also please make sure the ASIC also handles PPPoE since loads of providers still use this otherwise it will grind to a halt with high speed PPPoE. Security updates are also important, it does not matter for me if it is closed source but the security updates are important, and the PPPoE ASIC support.
On the closed sourced binary subject : To me, it's not a deal breaker.. But if I buy such a device, I would love to be able to tamper with it a little bit (building my own distro etc..). Does the NXP licensing and the use of their CPU will prevent me from building a Linux kernel for example ? To be fair and honest, I think this use-case is niche, and does not represent what the majority of people will do.
One other thing I want to point out : Personnaly I might be interested in only buying the board, fully populated, but will not really have the use for a case. I would see it more as a fancy cool-looking raspberry pi that is more network oriented, like a Banana Pi BPI-R3 for example. Once again : this is not a common use-case. But I think it will not add a huge cost for you guys to sell a case-less version, I think, but I might be wrong !
Keep up the good work, you're doing great !
PS : I really love the aesthetic of the logo you created for the company. I would love to support the project by buying a shirt or a hoodie. It might be a cool way for you guys to make some money.
So, the way I understand it (because we don't have the evaluation software for the ASK yet), is that basically it's just a binary that NXP provides that we have to run, on top of a couple mandatory kernel modules this binary needs. So it should be possible to pretty much plug it into whatever you prefer to run, as long as the CPU has DPAA.
And thank you for the t-shirt suggestion, it's a really good one and will definitely talk to the team about it!
Might I add, also some morale patches would b nice
1. Please make sure that the PSU which is selected is of a commonly available voltage (12v with 5.5mmOD/2.1mmID or 19/20v with 7.4mm laptop style), and if USB-C that it is PD 3.0 compliant with disconnectable cord.
2. Please make it a lump on a wire, not wall wart, not all PDU/power strips have the plugs oriented the right way, and verticality can get in the way more than some extra cord. Grounding is not as important IMO.
3. Lastly, no C5/C6 "cloverleaf" or "micky mouse" crap :-P Please use either C7/C8 for ungrounded/2pole or C13/C14 for grounded.
All of these are a yes, and done. :)
YES!
ground isn't necessary. Definitely prefer a Fan charger with just the tip I need. I'm mainly US based. I doubt I would be traveling with this router internationally 😅