One thing to note: Siri and (assume Google) will be using decimals while I am using inches/feet. Feel free to convert if you want but keeping things simple, my method/math will get you close enough!
OK this isn’t difficult, my American cousins - 1” = 25mm/2.5cm. God willing this will allow a very quick and simplistic formula to abide by. If you’re absorbing NRD beyond my abilities this should be a no brainer 30cm per foot as 🇦🇺 has/had a foot in both camps for to long; imperial is just not accurate enough and is aligned with a generation before mine in the land of Oz. As an engineer mate near enough isn’t good enough, but, clearly Ron made it very clear this is not an exact science, many things will impact the riggs performance 🎭 Thanking you Ron for giving clear advice and justifying the importance of consideration toward placement ✌🏽🔊
As a pro audio engineer for more than 45 years I have to tell you, you nearly nailed this. You missed talking about one very important part of this, and the part this is unique to each room; standing waves. All of what you showed is 100% legit, (though I disagree on toe-in for reasons I will detail in a moment), but standing waves are where your entire process can fall apart.. In my particular room, if I put my listening place in your recommended spot, the bass falls off to almost nothing (cancelling wave). Move 12" back and it gets too loud, move 12" forward and it dials right in. My room is an anomaly, but the point is to listen CAREFULLY and not just follow 'instructions', no matter how talented the presenter. Now, to toe-in. Toe-in sets up more cross talk between the speakers, which can produce lots of standing waves. Standing waves are USUALLY heard the best in the very low frequencies (described as 'booming' in many cases) but toe-in causes these at MID frequencies (possibly what you are calling 'shouty'). Yes, these DO indeed 'color' your sound, but I would postulate that all you are doing at that point is adding 'confusion' to your system. I've actually tested this in an arena system as we were developing the 'flying array' systems that back in the 80's and 90's that are the norm now. We found that toe-in actually increased our power and coverage needs. Once we plotted the frequency responses from each side independently, then both sides together, it was clearly apparent that the speakers were 'fighting' each other when toed in. When left flat faced to the audience (even toed OUT a little) the edge response from each array summed in the middle to sound even across the room. Later we added center array's for vocal clarity, but kept the gain about 1-2db down for that array. later, when we began to run stereo rigs, we split the center array down the middle and discovered 'center channel' was better for an arena. It actually enhanced the stereo mix by allowing us to pan harder left and right without depriving the audience on the opposite sides of information. I think the case was that it may be a little easier to 'hear' these things when your room is hundreds of feet in each direction, and your sound system is driven by 150,000 watts! It does not hurt to be working with Dr Bose and Jack Weisberg (legendary NYC sound company owner) either! In summary; talk about standing waves and how to listen for and accommodate them in the listening environment. Thanks for the great information videos!
That’s really interesting! In my home studio I have each speaker pointed right at my face. Are you saying I should have them pointing straight down the room, sort of playing right past my head?
@@SlowCarToChina A speaker has a 'sound stage' and most designers do their thing with the speakers flat, not toed in. Try it flat. Close your eyes and 'position' each instrument on that soundstage. Make a 'map' in your head, then try it with toe-in. You decide. I find that the soundstage is more nuanced with my DCM TF750's flat, but they are exceptional imaging speakers. One thing you will find is that the smaller the 'face' of the speaker, the less an effect it has one way or the other. This method also brings your listening room into play more, which I prefer. Happy listening!
I have a very similar issue where my imaging is best but the bass just dissapears. I've currently got it setup where I have a nice even frequency range but have to compromise on imaging. I keep hoping I'm going to find the magic spot where it all just works but it has alluded me so far.
@@johnmcinnes9399 so I have Totem Sttafs and after I set them up I was puzzled , i wasn’t that happy with the sound. I felt the midrange was completely missing even though I toed them in to Face my ears. So I looked up online and almost everyone said for these speakers they should be 6 ft apart maximum (I had them 10 ft apart as I thought this would give a wider soundstage) and TOTEM advices do not TOE them in , just keep them straight forward and three feet away from the back wall (I had them right up against the back wall). After changing them from 10 ft apart to 6 ft apart and not toed in , they sound so much better. The midrange has returned. For Home theatre I don’t see much difference if they are against the back wall or not (that may also be because the bass frequencies come out of the subwoofer) but for music I definitely do notice a big difference and what people said is correct . I pull them forward 1.5-2 ft in front of the back wall for music , that’s the best I can do (3 ft is too much) and the sound improves for sure even though the wall is reflective glass and I should probably put some foam on the wall behind the back port of these speakers
There is LOTS of great advice in this video (sorry, I couldn’t resist). Rock solid method to getting your speakers in the right place. Well done buddy! Best wishes from the other side of the pond, Tarun.
O.M.F.G! This is amazing. I thought I had things dialed in pretty good and I was actually close. BUT... Using this method I wound up with my speakers moved back about 8 inches more than I had them (1/3 into the room, opposite of my chair) and about 4 inches each more toward the center of the room. My goodness the speakers completely vanished, the soundstage opened up and is vast and cohesive. I couldn't be happier. Thanks so much for this!
Ron, this is genius. Magic did actually happen. I will always be grateful for this advice. I certainly like it LOTS and LOTS. Get it. The soundstage on my speakers was so impressive and the speakers themselves disappeared. Wow!! Thanks so much. Your channel is both entertaining, informative and fun. Keep up the good work. Best wishes from the UK. :)
Hi Ron, I have watched hundreds of videos on acoustics and this is by far the best one on speaker placement. You will have to follow it up with sub placement for sure and please include setting the cross over. Also a mention about height maybe even in the desciption would be helpfull.... And to anyone who can't leave their speakers out in the middle of the room, you don't have to just put a small sticker on the floor and bring em out when you want to spoil yourself.
The math is very much in line with what I've read, then done. And when you're close, an inch or 2 out or in, forward or back can make a noticable difference. But I have NEVER been able to make those speakers disappear. When good, the speakers are like the microphones, and the performance is behind and outside their placement. That's been like the holy grail for me. Great tutorial on the mechanics of getting it done. Thanks.
THIS IS INCREDIBLE!! For YEARS I knew something was off with my system and followed advice both from the manufacturer (Focal) and from countless "experts" online. The general idea of what everyone tells you is "avoid corners", "use an equilateral triangle pattern", and "listen and experiment". I am a very detail/fact oriented person, and your approach with 1 foot quadrants perfectly measured took enough of the guess work out of this to help me get my system perfect. For anyone reading this, IT WORKS but you need to follow things exactly. Put the tape down. Measure everything... It will take about an hour of prep, but its worth it. The dark room idea helps as well. I started from the back and actually encountered two spots where things sounded incredible. Keep this in mind if the first spot you find isn't ideal. Also moving the speakers to the left or the right in the square changes things A LOT. I honestly wasnt expecting this. When you find the right spot, move the speakers far forward again then back a foot at a time... confirm your results! Sending you a little something via PayPal as a huge thank you for this free advice!
Dude! Dude! You saved me about 10k€. My triangles are now singing like they are 15k€ what is heard in shows. Sadly i have wasted years on the back wall starting point system. It was c r a p... Ty!
I found this my own way. We got to the same place in different ways. This is very cool. When I get a new listening room I will do this and mine using this as my basis. Excellent video. Thank you for the beautiful explanation.
Just drop in and say thank you for such an incredible advice! I played around with the speakers for the whole morning and i was fascinated. Not only me, but my wife too who doesn't know much about acoustic She could hear the difference. What's more, you van move your speakers wider or narrower to suit difficult genre of music if you need more vocal or soundstage. Wonderful
My wife told me there was something wrong when she was listening to an audio book because there was no sound coming out of the speakers (just the phantom center). I'm still playing around with placement.
And this is the difference between a real listening room and a home theater, or a family room. Hard to get perfect speaker placement without a dedicated room where you can get the speakers away from the walls. Because of the layout of my theater I've long known that my speaker placement for music sucks so I'm knowingly sacrificing it - but I've been doing it for so long I'd sort of forgotten about the 'magic' I know my speakers can deliver. You've inspired me to move them around - if even for the day - just to experience the magic again. Thanks! Maybe the sliders need to be permanent - move them out for an occasional listening session - slide them back when done.
This was great Ron. Trouble is when your listening room is your living room and that is open plan. This is my dilemma, especially when I factor in the island bench kitchen. Love ya work!
You're amazing! This worked wonders in my odd small shaped room(10x10x9 effective). I am getting some GIk acoustic treatment soon. I had my speakers too far apart. I watched your small room video too. Took the best from both.
Hey man, I really appreciate this vid. Thanks for the tips. Someone asked a question I also have. When you measure the width of the room, do you measure the distance between the side walls or the width of the listening space? I have an L shaped room with dining room on the corner of the L and living room next to that.
That video was done really well. People need to hear differences in slight increments so they can determine the differences before arriving at the sweet spot.
Thanks for this. I tried it as best I could in my room and seemed to work well. I'm in a big basement room where I have to have the listening space more to the right of the room due to a support pillar and window. I also can't have the couch as far back as suggested. The listening spot and the speakers kinda make an equilateral triangle which I guess isn't ideal. It was fun testing out options though and still pretty pleased with the results.
I think this is a nice starting point when setting up in the long axis of a room. In my case, I have my listening axis short, meaning my front and back wall are the long walls of my rectangular living room,. This setup gives me a sound stage unbelievably wide. I can get almost 180° with some tracks. Yet with depth giving me that 3D, holographic illusion. Also check out some technical from Audio Physics. I also think that the rules of 3rds and 4ths can be broken, don’t be afraid of going wider with more toe in.
I saw this video so long ago, but the information you shared stuck in my head. After two years I finally finished purchasing the items needed for a respectable system. It was tough having to sit and look at each piece on my shelf and wonder and dream of how it would all sound some day. Well today was the day I finally set it up. Like many, I pushed the speakers back to the wall so there would be ample flow through the room. The sound was detailed and accurate, but something was off. There was no "presence" to the singers and instruments. It was then I remembered your LOTS technique. I pulled the speakers WAAAY forward and started listening with my eyes closed in a dark room. I backed them up until I heard what you described as unmistakable and boy it was. When that spot hit, suddenly I had musicians and singers centered right in front of me with decays off to the sides. If I hadn't experienced that from your words of audio wisdom, I would have been missing the real joys of owning an audiophile system. I would have wanted new speakers at a minimum and perhaps even thought it was altogether a waste of money. But when the soundstage was properly set up, a huge smile just lit across my face. It was emotional, involving, and it drew you in. My room may not be neat and orderly when compared to others, but oh the sound, the glorious sound. Thanks again Ron
Ron, This is a fantastic episode. I tried it and the results blew my mind. I had to make a few compromises but all in all, now I understand speaker disappearance. Thanks so much! Love this episode. Please keep doing stuff like this.
After checking out a couple of your videos, this one made me sub. Very well explained and put together. I have just recently experienced the sound stage from two towers and listening to music is a completely different experience now. Thanks for the hard work!
Thank you so much for this! The tip of starting with the speakers all the way out instead of up against the wall was GOLD. I thought the poor sound in my new house was a function of reflections and a bad room. I was ready to drop a bunch of cash on room treatments and even shop for different speakers (and i love my current speakers). Turns out I just needed them about 6' off the front wall. Now my soundstage is holographic and the tubby bass is tightened right up. Outstanding. Thank you again!
Ron, great video! This is a technique I hadn't seen before. One point. This works for standard, cone driver speakers. It will not work for extremely directional speakers unless you keep them pointed directly at the listener. My Sanders 10c speakers are extremely directional. If they are not pointed directly at me, there is very little image. There are a couple different ways to skin the audio cat. Wide dispersion speakers that must be carefully tweaked to play the room, rewarding with a nice balance and a wide sweet spot. Or very narrow dispersion speakers that play the room to a much smaller extent, but have a very narrow sweet spot. I call my Sanders' my "selfish" speakers. One person only, please. 😁
There are also some speakers that are designed to placed against a wall it won’t work for as well. Thanks for sharing your feedback about the Sanders. I’ve heard those before - nice sounding speakers!
In a small room, unfortunately the best place to put your speakers, is up against the front wall, it minimizes the SBIR. The bass boost you get from the front wall is also minimum phase.
Excellent video !! AND, SO HAPPY to see one of the LAST remaining BRICK AND MORTAR audio stores (where you can still audition the equipment) in MY area shown as your sponsor! Dave and his crew are simply wonderful, and I always let their name be known when I leave comments on the various audio review video channels. I am the very happy owner of a new Parasound Halo A-21 / Halo P6 combo driving Martin Logan ESL-9 electrostats and Kimber cable interconnects. ALL from Safe and Sound. This is the nicest sounding audio system I have ever owned and Dave put it all together. Their new warehouse is like a Home Depot, only all audio gear. Thanks again for a great, informative video presentation. (O:
Thanks for this. Although my workshop is as large are your listening room, its a workshop with tile floors and basically a 3' x 7' worktable in the center. I have a large computer desk that will contain my speakers on one end of the room so separation is limited and the optimal listening distance will be all over the room as I am either at the desk and 3' feet from the speakers or in the middle of the room and all around my work table. Listening to detail of the music is not my focus in this room for most of the time, but having some nice tunes going in the background helps move the day along. Your advice is definitely worthwhile and hey you made it interesting. Thanks for passing us your knowledge and advice.
Wow ! This absolutely WORKS !!! I've tried other speaker placement tutorials and never got the effect that this has produced, but this method brought out a surround sound effect that I have NEVER achieved with my system. I couldn't believe it and even my wife sat there in the sweet spot and was amazed.. and she is a hard customer to please I can't leave the speakers and seat in the locations that I ended up with, but they are marked on the floor for those times when I want to enjoy my stereo. It is amazing Thanks a million !!!
What a great tutorial, totally different to anything else I’ve seen. I’ve been playing around with speaker placement and been amazed at what can happen to the sound with small changes to speaker position so I’m going to try this. Also, aren’t you the guy who did the VPI Prime set up video? It was really helpful when I bought my VPI Prime
I’ve always kind of instinctively known this but your step by step procedure is so clear and concise. It should be “required viewing “ for any young audiophile. Brilliant work Ron , well done! I laugh when I think about how many times I’ve suggested to friends to come on out into the middle of the room and play... that’s where the magic happens. Wives hate me ! I try to settle them down by explaining how much money I just saved them in upgrades😂😂😂. A room is a terrible thing to waste...
Also get some pavers and adjust the speaker hight. tweeters at ear level is good starting point ( kinda does what angleing them does but i think it works a bit better for imageing )
Awesome!! I gave up on Ultra High End Stuff after spending Thousands of Dollars on High End Magazine recommendations! I was a High End consultant that set up listening rooms for clients that spent a fortune on equipment,and their system was Awful 😢Sounding. I knew that room setup,and system matching was absolutely critical! Despite the Cost of the components!
Few things...one, folks should know that combining the set up recommendations you present along with creating an (early) reflection free zone at the listening spot with a few strategically located absorption panels to kill those earliest hard reflections takes all this magic to the next level (there is soooo much more to behold beyond the "center image") and can remedy image shift issues in room set ups that don't allow for symmetry (equal distance between speakers and side walls). I remember your video on room acoustics, and I kept waiting for you to reference it in this video, but I suspect you were keeping the size of the pill small so folks who haven't embarked on the placement/room acoustics journey wouldn't feel intimidated or overwhelmed. But I think you'll agree that the payoff when combining the two is orders of magnitude more effective and affordable than something like expensive cable tweaks and/or upgrading your $500 DAC to a $1000 unit. Two, you could probably do an entire video regarding how what we see when we're listening affects sound stage resolution. Lighting is a huge factor, but so is something like having metadata on a monitor in front of you that draws your attention away from the "free air"...or even one’s physical/emotional state (rested vs fatigued, sick vs healthy, etc). Fascinating chit. And lastly, and its pretty pedantic, but THANK YOU for calling the wall behind the speakers the FRONT wall and the wall behind the listening spot the REAR wall. Drives me nuts when people reverse it (and I see and hear it happening A LOT in hifi discussions). Ok...time to get back to work on my GRR x-Statik build. ;) Outstanding job on this video, BTW!
I bought a FX Audio DAC for 50 bucks. I replaces the electrolytic capacitors with film caps and now it sounds like a $3,000 DAC. Oh ya I forgot about the OPA-627 "can" style op amp. That was a bit pricey, but holly smokes!!!!
Yup high quality demonstration with lots of utility, this is valuable info, cant believe there arent 5 times the subscribers here! Just waiting for the trolls who inevitably show up to complain about something...
Michael Mityok Yup, the bitch trolls with nothing better to do than insult and complain are everywhere, probably and especially in vids regarding HiFi. I like to kill em with kindness, and a lot of em have come around when you’re super nice. No need to be a jerk like them.
@@curtiswhyte3297 I wasn’t referring to the original comment. I was just talking about trolls in general, as I believe Michael was also because of how he said, “just waiting”, like it hadn’t occurred yet.
Ron thanks so much for the tutorial on LOTS.. Absolutely achieved the perfect setup for my room which is a challenge but the speakers disappear to improving sound stage even in my 10’ x 11’ room. Just got back into my passion for HiFi (approaching empty nester) and between you and Sean, and even cheap audio man has made a huge difference.. My first toe in the HiFi water with everyone’s input: ITOAVX SA3 and PA3 Warfedale Diamond 11.2’s Ifi Zen blue S.M.S.L M300 I don’t know if you reviewed the ifi Zen Blue... I have to say WOW..especially running through my M300 DAC. My fiancé purchased the Fluence RT83 turntable as a Christmas gift I was thinking this would make a huge delta from the old days with vinyl.. A/B comparison I was astonished!!! Streaming from my IPHONE via ifi Zen blue the details, sound stage to depth..like symbol hits just elongated to the end is outstanding, and hearing things in familiar important pieces I never heard before was impressive.. I ended up returning the turntable. Love to see you do the same on streaming and how to set it up right. Also comparing the latest in bluetooth vs WiFi.. Love your show and a huge fan!!! William
Late here but good for you emptying nest and getting back to Hi Fi. Hopefully you can set up in a larger room. Had my rig stored for many years. Just had amp preamp recapped and set up my 19'x30' fam room into listenimg room. Speakers far from walls per Rons vid. In my case my tt with a nice cart and audiophile or good quality records sound great!
Great information in your video as always. Thanks for sharing so much knowledge. Really bad idea to point the laser in to the camera. Lasers in our eyes can cause irreparable damage. You don't want to give others any ideas about doing that.
Your technique is very interesting. Congratulations!! Where should I place my speakers if my listening room has one side with an opening about 1/2 its width? For a good soundstage should the speakers be placed on the side with the opening or the opposite ?
Yep. My father was telling me that his speakers are front ported, so it doesn’t matter where they are. Until recently, when I came and moved them away from the wall and he’ve heard the thing. Now he’s a believer) Thanks for sharing the technique, I’ve done it mostly by ear. I’ll certainly try it.
But what about oddly shaped listening rooms/areas? For example, I have a 13ft wide, but quite long living room. Part of it is the TV/HiFi area, another part is the dining area, another part is the kitchen area. There are no walls in between. What do I do?!
Nice Job! The more transparent your system the more fine the movements can give improvement. I was at an audiophile club and helped them set up for a listening party. The speakers were getting fine tuned for the sound stage. The designer finally liked the position and put on an album. The recording of a bird flew in from high left, landed just slightly right, and flew off to the high right. When the system has the ability, the recording is well made and the sound stage is perfect, a holographic magic that can make the music bring the dead back to life even if just for a song or two. You can literally hear the individual breaths of the singers, the ridges of the strings on the base and the keys of the trumpet valves sliding and clicking. The 4 jazz musicians all had there position where the music came from. While I understand the science, it still seems more of magic and art. Surreal is my best description. What I took home that day was the magic is possible. You start with the science to get close and then learn the art to perfect the magic. I now work for that Speaker system designer. Not a day goes by I don't learn as much as I can handle. I still have a long way to go. I will say my system in my little apartment blows my friends away. My room treatment is pure mad scientist. It wouldn't work anywhere else.
The "problem" with these approaches based on calculations, is that if one single factor cannot be accomplished, the the entire process is rendered pointless. Case in point, my listening position is fixed - it cannot be moved in any direction back and forth due to the layout of the apartment, nor can my speaker position move any further out from the wall than about 30cm (again due to how the room is configured). It would only take one of these limitations to prevent me getting an optimised soundstage. How many of us have rooms with symmetric walls, let alone a dedicated listening room where we can practically live with speakers dragged out into the room like this? I hardly know anyone with this luxury, we are pretty much all stuck with having to place speakers in our general living rooms. Having speakers sat out and a meter or so off the wall is just completely impractical. Something else not mentioned here too, is ceiling height. Room treatment will also play a huge role in how you perceive sound in your particular place - reflective sound and standing waves are EVERYTHING, and none of this can be calculated in line with the instructions in this video. Yes the poster says that this is a "starting point"...but quite honestly, you might as well just say "try your speakers in different positions, toed in/straight on, and see how they sound"....as measurements really are of little use.
I want to be brief for the time being, this LOTS system works some serious magic with my speaker placement, Ron thank you so much for a clear understanding of what to listen for and how to go about doing it, music is now detached from my speakers with a spooky holographic phantom image.
Hi Ron ... I learned a lot in your video... one of things I learned was to be more humble! Though I know a lot about acoustics ...I knew nothing of how to place speakers. Thank you for your 10 placement tips! Humbly Ron Jay Barnett
HolyFreakinTamoli does this make a difference! My listening room is my private office where I spend most of my time. It's only 11'-2" x 19'-6", but I'm already positioned the correct 6'-6" off the back wall (which has an Ikea 5x5 Kallax bookshelf back there). So now moving my Buchardt S400's 6"-6" out from the front wall (2'-6" previously) is A-freaking-MAYzing! Now I see what y'all have been saying about the soundstage - and this is just my first attempt! I also have the reality of a big-ass drawing table right in front of me and my 27" iMac monitor to my right, but still.... great advice, and I'll keep working with this. Thanks! P.s: the 400's are about 120 hours broken in, so another 180 to go.
Man what a great and simple way to start or check your current speaker placement! Have a pair of Maggies .7 in my living room and thought I had found a good setup after countless hours... after ten minutes with your method I found magic all over again! Thanks, you rock!
I have Magnepan 0.7's also and my main issue is my listening couch is up againts a knee wall but I do have sloped ceiling that should help somewhat. They are positioned 44 inches from the front wall and 84 inches apart and approximately eleven feet from my couch Non the less they sound they sound pretty darn good with good soundstage and inner detail, but always wonder if they could sound even better. How much watts/amps do you have driving your .7's??
@@Jack96993 Glad to hear you're having a nice time with your system too. I am driving my .7's with an old Nad M3 integrated. Puts out 180w per channel @ 8 or 4ohms but more importantly, it drives the speakers with a decent amount of current. No analogue sources, just a Bluesound streaming Tidal. Honest and happy.
@@patricioruiz1187 Hey Patricio! Your Nad should be more than enough watts/current to drive your 0.7's I tried with my tube amp VAC PA 35 35 that sounds magical but just not enough juice!So I found a used 54lb class D, beast of an amp made by Spectron from back in the mid 2000's It's does 500watts@8ohm 650@4ohms &1,200@ 2ohms! But the really important spec is it's ability to output 65 amps for 500 milliseconds! Wow does it make my Maggie's sing!! My Spectron amp driving the Maggie's with lots of juice (watts/current)and listen to the cymbals shimmer Watch "Magnepan .7's playing SRV" on TH-cam th-cam.com/video/WUPxHx995ZA/w-d-xo.html
Thanks for a very useful tool. I have been working within the GRID for a month now and must admit it is absolutely one of the best tools I have encountered. Not being afraid to toss speakers and stuff about, due to easy return to point of origin. I have kept the original settings as a ref, and ending not far from old position. Speakers apx. 6" forwards and about a foot closer to each other and basically no toe inn, the real diff is moving my chair from the back wall by another 2´. Makes the room close to a nearfield situation but by Jove, it works. Thanks, mate. A happy dude here :)
Ron, you swap in and out different speakers Al day long. The question is if you determine a spot in your room for speaker placement. That placement is room dependent. If you swap in another set of speakers is it going to be on the exact place?? (When it is the same room with its dimensions it should probably be.) Is the placement spot, different with different types OB/box/lineAray and so on?
Greetings from Germany! Found this channel a few days ago, pretty cool so far! Now that we have a bunch of time, I'm going to try this out today. I'm curious to see what it does to my 'stereo triangle' or if my speakers end up somewhere else.
Dear NRD, was using the magic triangle. Mmmmm, not getti g a great soundstage. Waiting for tomorrow night to try your advice. I love your reasoning, starting rediculously wrong working to the best sound position. Makes perfect sense. Only drawback for me....😮😮😮 each speaker weighs 38kg (83 pounds). Gym workout😅😅😅😅
Post script. Music selected, floor marked and measured. Speakers positioned next to my listening chair. Evening fell and I started. The initial sound was intended to be horrendous. Thus, you establish a point of reference from which you could only improve. I ended up with a much better sound stage than using the magic triangle principle. Moving the speakers a bit inwards and outwards from the rail track helped a lot finding the sweet spot. Then toe-ing the speakers a bit in eas the final perfect tune. Thanks again NRD for the advice. Further to this, I'm leaving the marked rail track and speakers as-is for at least a two week listening period. This way, I think I can get my ears tuned to its new position. After two weeks, I'll then again adjust the position marginally just to make sure I did indeed get the best position. Reason, I found the with the initial listening experiment, my mind and ears got a bit "numb" with all the critical and strenuous listening.
Hey maybe a little tip to measure the center distance between the speakers. Maybe most already know, but if you measure from the outside of one speaker to the inside of the other speaker is the same distance as center to center. So outside to inside might be an easier way to measure. It sure is for me
Great tutorial. Aren’t you mixing up decimal with imperial? 5.3 (decimal) is not 5’3” (imperial), I don’t think. Perhaps not a critical difference but.....
Cool advice. About lights off: if you have any light dimmers, thyristors can be putting nasty electrical spikes on the mains supply. Lights off: no electrical spikes. Also LEDs are known to generate radio frequency (RF) interference (RFI). Neons indicators in power strips add white RF noise. RFI / electrical interference may be disturbing the mains frequency transformers of your gear leading to a more constricted sound. All the best, Rob
Game changer. I had never worried too much about my listening position relative to the room, but that combined with having my speakers almost in the middle of the room (front to back) has created a depth of soundstage I hadn't heard before in my space. I'm using Cornwall IV speakers, nowhere near a corner or wall :)
nice, i subscribed. My only suggestion is you could have cut the length of the video signidicantly. all the math of the tape lines - 1 diagram could have cut 10 minutes .
Really would have liked to see a complete overview of what your room looked like when done. I’m afraid after doing this, the aesthetics might not be good, I.e. speakers would be placed in traffic path for our particular room. Great video in any case.
Quite sure this is a dumb question but I assume this is geared towards actual listening rooms for stereo music. Do these principles (or something like it) apply to home theater setups? Is there something similar for 5.1 and beyond?
You are a genius! I followed your advice and it was like "Abracadaudio". Speakers are surprisingly far into the room but the sound stage is amazing. Thank you!
Maybe too obvious, but you didn’t mention it…..to do this, longer speaker cables will be necessary to get fully extended to the listening parallel location, unless one already has the necessary length, or wants to also move the gear setup too.
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One thing to note: Siri and (assume Google) will be using decimals while I am using inches/feet. Feel free to convert if you want but keeping things simple, my method/math will get you close enough!
Do you mean: metric? :)
God bless the imperial system. #MakeItSimple
OK this isn’t difficult, my American cousins - 1” = 25mm/2.5cm. God willing this will allow a very quick and simplistic formula to abide by. If you’re absorbing NRD beyond my abilities this should be a no brainer 30cm per foot as 🇦🇺 has/had a foot in both camps for to long; imperial is just not accurate enough and is aligned with a generation before mine in the land of Oz. As an engineer mate near enough isn’t good enough, but, clearly Ron made it very clear this is not an exact science, many things will impact the riggs performance 🎭 Thanking you Ron for giving clear advice and justifying the importance of consideration toward placement ✌🏽🔊
OK now I notice this comment after making my pedantic comment LOL
Metric > imperial
As a pro audio engineer for more than 45 years I have to tell you, you nearly nailed this. You missed talking about one very important part of this, and the part this is unique to each room; standing waves. All of what you showed is 100% legit, (though I disagree on toe-in for reasons I will detail in a moment), but standing waves are where your entire process can fall apart.. In my particular room, if I put my listening place in your recommended spot, the bass falls off to almost nothing (cancelling wave). Move 12" back and it gets too loud, move 12" forward and it dials right in. My room is an anomaly, but the point is to listen CAREFULLY and not just follow 'instructions', no matter how talented the presenter.
Now, to toe-in. Toe-in sets up more cross talk between the speakers, which can produce lots of standing waves. Standing waves are USUALLY heard the best in the very low frequencies (described as 'booming' in many cases) but toe-in causes these at MID frequencies (possibly what you are calling 'shouty'). Yes, these DO indeed 'color' your sound, but I would postulate that all you are doing at that point is adding 'confusion' to your system.
I've actually tested this in an arena system as we were developing the 'flying array' systems that back in the 80's and 90's that are the norm now. We found that toe-in actually increased our power and coverage needs. Once we plotted the frequency responses from each side independently, then both sides together, it was clearly apparent that the speakers were 'fighting' each other when toed in. When left flat faced to the audience (even toed OUT a little) the edge response from each array summed in the middle to sound even across the room. Later we added center array's for vocal clarity, but kept the gain about 1-2db down for that array. later, when we began to run stereo rigs, we split the center array down the middle and discovered 'center channel' was better for an arena. It actually enhanced the stereo mix by allowing us to pan harder left and right without depriving the audience on the opposite sides of information. I think the case was that it may be a little easier to 'hear' these things when your room is hundreds of feet in each direction, and your sound system is driven by 150,000 watts! It does not hurt to be working with Dr Bose and Jack Weisberg (legendary NYC sound company owner) either!
In summary; talk about standing waves and how to listen for and accommodate them in the listening environment. Thanks for the great information videos!
That’s really interesting! In my home studio I have each speaker pointed right at my face. Are you saying I should have them pointing straight down the room, sort of playing right past my head?
@@SlowCarToChina The only thing you can do is try it out, and see what sounds best to you. It's your ears that will be listening to the music.
@@SlowCarToChina A speaker has a 'sound stage' and most designers do their thing with the speakers flat, not toed in. Try it flat. Close your eyes and 'position' each instrument on that soundstage. Make a 'map' in your head, then try it with toe-in. You decide. I find that the soundstage is more nuanced with my DCM TF750's flat, but they are exceptional imaging speakers. One thing you will find is that the smaller the 'face' of the speaker, the less an effect it has one way or the other. This method also brings your listening room into play more, which I prefer. Happy listening!
I have a very similar issue where my imaging is best but the bass just dissapears. I've currently got it setup where I have a nice even frequency range but have to compromise on imaging. I keep hoping I'm going to find the magic spot where it all just works but it has alluded me so far.
@@johnmcinnes9399 so I have Totem Sttafs and after I set them up I was puzzled , i wasn’t that happy with the sound. I felt the midrange was completely missing even though I toed them in to Face my ears. So I looked up online and almost everyone said for these speakers they should be 6 ft apart maximum (I had them 10 ft apart as I thought this would give a wider soundstage) and TOTEM advices do not TOE them in , just keep them straight forward and three feet away from the back wall (I had them right up against the back wall). After changing them from 10 ft apart to 6 ft apart and not toed in , they sound so much better. The midrange has returned. For Home theatre I don’t see much difference if they are against the back wall or not (that may also be because the bass frequencies come out of the subwoofer) but for music I definitely do notice a big difference and what people said is correct . I pull them forward 1.5-2 ft in front of the back wall for music , that’s the best I can do (3 ft is too much) and the sound improves for sure even though the wall is reflective glass and I should probably put some foam on the wall behind the back port of these speakers
There is LOTS of great advice in this video (sorry, I couldn’t resist). Rock solid method to getting your speakers in the right place. Well done buddy!
Best wishes from the other side of the pond, Tarun.
O.M.F.G! This is amazing. I thought I had things dialed in pretty good and I was actually close. BUT... Using this method I wound up with my speakers moved back about 8 inches more than I had them (1/3 into the room, opposite of my chair) and about 4 inches each more toward the center of the room. My goodness the speakers completely vanished, the soundstage opened up and is vast and cohesive. I couldn't be happier. Thanks so much for this!
Now I just need a listening room
+1
Ron, this is genius. Magic did actually happen. I will always be grateful for this advice. I certainly like it LOTS and LOTS. Get it. The soundstage on my speakers was so impressive and the speakers themselves disappeared. Wow!! Thanks so much. Your channel is both entertaining, informative and fun. Keep up the good work. Best wishes from the UK. :)
Wonderful!
Hi Ron, I have watched hundreds of videos on acoustics and this is by far the best one on speaker placement. You will have to follow it up with sub placement for sure and please include setting the cross over. Also a mention about height maybe even in the desciption would be helpfull.... And to anyone who can't leave their speakers out in the middle of the room, you don't have to just put a small sticker on the floor and bring em out when you want to spoil yourself.
:
@@BubblePuppy. There's a simple way to make a dimple... th-cam.com/video/6D6Fkkl8D3g/w-d-xo.html
The math is very much in line with what I've read, then done. And when you're close, an inch or 2 out or in, forward or back can make a noticable difference. But I have NEVER been able to make those speakers disappear. When good, the speakers are like the microphones, and the performance is behind and outside their placement. That's been like the holy grail for me. Great tutorial on the mechanics of getting it done. Thanks.
Thanks for the comment!
A good way to look at it is you want the sound to be coming from behind the speakers. When you accomplish that, then they are gone.
I'm getting a kick how you're saying tape measure (maysure). Love it. 😂 I had to rewind a few time to make sure it wasn't my hearing.
Hahaha
I totally agree with the lights off eyes open approach for listening!
It is magic!!!!!!! Thank you so much. If you listen once like this, you cant go back. It is not music anymore
THIS IS INCREDIBLE!! For YEARS I knew something was off with my system and followed advice both from the manufacturer (Focal) and from countless "experts" online. The general idea of what everyone tells you is "avoid corners", "use an equilateral triangle pattern", and "listen and experiment". I am a very detail/fact oriented person, and your approach with 1 foot quadrants perfectly measured took enough of the guess work out of this to help me get my system perfect.
For anyone reading this, IT WORKS but you need to follow things exactly. Put the tape down. Measure everything... It will take about an hour of prep, but its worth it. The dark room idea helps as well. I started from the back and actually encountered two spots where things sounded incredible. Keep this in mind if the first spot you find isn't ideal. Also moving the speakers to the left or the right in the square changes things A LOT. I honestly wasnt expecting this. When you find the right spot, move the speakers far forward again then back a foot at a time... confirm your results!
Sending you a little something via PayPal as a huge thank you for this free advice!
Holy smokes man! Got your donation and can’t thank you enough! Really happy that you appreciated my tutorial and that you are up and running!
I tried it out tonight without exact measurement just to see and it work great. Gonna try again tomorrow with exact measurements as you suggested.
I can't believe it... I ended up with an equilateral triangle! LOL
Ron this was great. Thank you. Hope you and your family are doing well.
Tried this today. Worked great! Finally I have a holografic soundstage.
Dude! Dude! You saved me about 10k€. My triangles are now singing like they are 15k€ what is heard in shows. Sadly i have wasted years on the back wall starting point system. It was c r a p... Ty!
Fantastic
I found this my own way. We got to the same place in different ways. This is very cool. When I get a new listening room I will do this and mine using this as my basis. Excellent video. Thank you for the beautiful explanation.
Just drop in and say thank you for such an incredible advice! I played around with the speakers for the whole morning and i was fascinated. Not only me, but my wife too who doesn't know much about acoustic She could hear the difference. What's more, you van move your speakers wider or narrower to suit difficult genre of music if you need more vocal or soundstage. Wonderful
My wife told me there was something wrong when she was listening to an audio book because there was no sound coming out of the speakers (just the phantom center). I'm still playing around with placement.
And this is the difference between a real listening room and a home theater, or a family room. Hard to get perfect speaker placement without a dedicated room where you can get the speakers away from the walls. Because of the layout of my theater I've long known that my speaker placement for music sucks so I'm knowingly sacrificing it - but I've been doing it for so long I'd sort of forgotten about the 'magic' I know my speakers can deliver. You've inspired me to move them around - if even for the day - just to experience the magic again. Thanks! Maybe the sliders need to be permanent - move them out for an occasional listening session - slide them back when done.
This was great Ron. Trouble is when your listening room is your living room and that is open plan. This is my dilemma, especially when I factor in the island bench kitchen. Love ya work!
Chainsaw?
🤭 got my speaks on standmounts with mini castors so they can be moved around easily but not in the dark...
You're amazing! This worked wonders in my odd small shaped room(10x10x9 effective). I am getting some GIk acoustic treatment soon. I had my speakers too far apart. I watched your small room video too. Took the best from both.
Awesomeness!
Hey man, I really appreciate this vid. Thanks for the tips. Someone asked a question I also have. When you measure the width of the room, do you measure the distance between the side walls or the width of the listening space? I have an L shaped room with dining room on the corner of the L and living room next to that.
That video was done really well. People need to hear differences in slight increments so they can determine the differences before arriving at the sweet spot.
DMS sent me here, I’m not disappointed.
Love that dude!
Wow! What a difference. Thanks for the tips.
Thanks for this. I tried it as best I could in my room and seemed to work well. I'm in a big basement room where I have to have the listening space more to the right of the room due to a support pillar and window. I also can't have the couch as far back as suggested. The listening spot and the speakers kinda make an equilateral triangle which I guess isn't ideal. It was fun testing out options though and still pretty pleased with the results.
I love the Marshall half stack on the back wall. Keep it spicy!
Outstanding tutorial. I have been serious about music gear for many years and I knew nothing of this. Thank you!
I think this is a nice starting point when setting up in the long axis of a room. In my case, I have my listening axis short, meaning my front and back wall are the long walls of my rectangular living room,. This setup gives me a sound stage unbelievably wide. I can get almost 180° with some tracks. Yet with depth giving me that 3D, holographic illusion. Also check out some technical from Audio Physics. I also think that the rules of 3rds and 4ths can be broken, don’t be afraid of going wider with more toe in.
I saw this video so long ago, but the information you shared stuck in my head. After two years I finally finished purchasing the items needed for a respectable system. It was tough having to sit and look at each piece on my shelf and wonder and dream of how it would all sound some day. Well today was the day I finally set it up.
Like many, I pushed the speakers back to the wall so there would be ample flow through the room. The sound was detailed and accurate, but something was off. There was no "presence" to the singers and instruments.
It was then I remembered your LOTS technique. I pulled the speakers WAAAY forward and started listening with my eyes closed in a dark room. I backed them up until I heard what you described as unmistakable and boy it was. When that spot hit, suddenly I had musicians and singers centered right in front of me with decays off to the sides. If I hadn't experienced that from your words of audio wisdom, I would have been missing the real joys of owning an audiophile system. I would have wanted new speakers at a minimum and perhaps even thought it was altogether a waste of money. But when the soundstage was properly set up, a huge smile just lit across my face. It was emotional, involving, and it drew you in.
My room may not be neat and orderly when compared to others, but oh the sound, the glorious sound. Thanks again Ron
Ron, This is a fantastic episode. I tried it and the results blew my mind. I had to make a few compromises but all in all, now I understand speaker disappearance. Thanks so much! Love this episode. Please keep doing stuff like this.
Great news! I love it!
👌🏼👌🏼 like the level of professionalism, can't get much better than this. Thanks for sharing the knowledge🤝🏼
Such a great video. I wish I could like it twice. Very helpful!
This is mother effing brilliant. Good job, you. 👌🏼
Thanks amigo!
This is such powerful information...to the point where anyone considering buying new audio gear should first do this with their existing speakers.
Wow! Thanks!
After checking out a couple of your videos, this one made me sub. Very well explained and put together. I have just recently experienced the sound stage from two towers and listening to music is a completely different experience now. Thanks for the hard work!
Thank you so much for this!
The tip of starting with the speakers all the way out instead of up against the wall was GOLD. I thought the poor sound in my new house was a function of reflections and a bad room.
I was ready to drop a bunch of cash on room treatments and even shop for different speakers (and i love my current speakers). Turns out I just needed them about 6' off the front wall.
Now my soundstage is holographic and the tubby bass is tightened right up. Outstanding. Thank you again!
Nice to fix it at NO COST
Ron, great video! This is a technique I hadn't seen before. One point. This works for standard, cone driver speakers. It will not work for extremely directional speakers unless you keep them pointed directly at the listener. My Sanders 10c speakers are extremely directional. If they are not pointed directly at me, there is very little image.
There are a couple different ways to skin the audio cat. Wide dispersion speakers that must be carefully tweaked to play the room, rewarding with a nice balance and a wide sweet spot. Or very narrow dispersion speakers that play the room to a much smaller extent, but have a very narrow sweet spot. I call my Sanders' my "selfish" speakers. One person only, please. 😁
There are also some speakers that are designed to placed against a wall it won’t work for as well. Thanks for sharing your feedback about the Sanders. I’ve heard those before - nice sounding speakers!
Life changing video !! Thank you so much !
In a small room, unfortunately the best place to put your speakers, is up against the front wall, it minimizes the SBIR. The bass boost you get from the front wall is also minimum phase.
Excellent video !! AND, SO HAPPY to see one of the LAST remaining BRICK AND MORTAR audio stores (where you can still audition the equipment) in MY area shown as your sponsor! Dave and his crew are simply wonderful, and I always let their name be known when I leave comments on the various audio review video channels. I am the very happy owner of a new Parasound Halo A-21 / Halo P6 combo driving Martin Logan ESL-9 electrostats and Kimber cable interconnects. ALL from Safe and Sound. This is the nicest sounding audio system I have ever owned and Dave put it all together. Their new warehouse is like a Home Depot, only all audio gear. Thanks again for a great, informative video presentation. (O:
Thanks for this. Although my workshop is as large are your listening room, its a workshop with tile floors and basically a 3' x 7' worktable in the center. I have a large computer desk that will contain my speakers on one end of the room so separation is limited and the optimal listening distance will be all over the room as I am either at the desk and 3' feet from the speakers or in the middle of the room and all around my work table. Listening to detail of the music is not my focus in this room for most of the time, but having some nice tunes going in the background helps move the day along. Your advice is definitely worthwhile and hey you made it interesting. Thanks for passing us your knowledge and advice.
Wow ! This absolutely WORKS !!!
I've tried other speaker placement tutorials and never got the effect that this has produced, but this method brought out a surround sound effect that I have NEVER achieved with my system. I couldn't believe it and even my wife sat there in the sweet spot and was amazed.. and she is a hard customer to please
I can't leave the speakers and seat in the locations that I ended up with, but they are marked on the floor for those times when I want to enjoy my stereo. It is amazing
Thanks a million !!!
Heck yeah!
What a great tutorial, totally different to anything else I’ve seen. I’ve been playing around with speaker placement and been amazed at what can happen to the sound with small changes to speaker position so I’m going to try this. Also, aren’t you the guy who did the VPI Prime set up video? It was really helpful when I bought my VPI Prime
Yup, many years ago. Glad you enjoyed lots!
I’ve always kind of instinctively known this but your step by step procedure is so clear and concise. It should be “required viewing “ for any young audiophile. Brilliant work Ron , well done! I laugh when I think about how many times I’ve suggested to friends to come on out into the middle of the room and play... that’s where the magic happens. Wives hate me ! I try to settle them down by explaining how much money I just saved them in upgrades😂😂😂. A room is a terrible thing to waste...
Great tutorial, very well explained and illustrated; definitely worth a try.
Also get some pavers and adjust the speaker hight. tweeters at ear level is good starting point ( kinda does what angleing them does but i think it works a bit better for imageing )
This is great information
I really like this technique!.
Yup-subscribed!
Thanks for sharing this valuable inflation, Ron! I have enjoyed this video so much.
Awesome!! I gave up on Ultra High End Stuff after spending Thousands of Dollars on High End Magazine recommendations! I was a High End consultant that set up listening rooms for clients that spent a fortune on equipment,and their system was Awful 😢Sounding. I knew that room setup,and system matching was absolutely critical! Despite the Cost of the components!
One of the best HiFi videos I've watched in a while. Next we need help with subwoofer placement and the sound treatment placement.
Bass and subwoofers are coming up! Thanks for watching and commenting.
Few things...one, folks should know that combining the set up recommendations you present along with creating an (early) reflection free zone at the listening spot with a few strategically located absorption panels to kill those earliest hard reflections takes all this magic to the next level (there is soooo much more to behold beyond the "center image") and can remedy image shift issues in room set ups that don't allow for symmetry (equal distance between speakers and side walls). I remember your video on room acoustics, and I kept waiting for you to reference it in this video, but I suspect you were keeping the size of the pill small so folks who haven't embarked on the placement/room acoustics journey wouldn't feel intimidated or overwhelmed. But I think you'll agree that the payoff when combining the two is orders of magnitude more effective and affordable than something like expensive cable tweaks and/or upgrading your $500 DAC to a $1000 unit.
Two, you could probably do an entire video regarding how what we see when we're listening affects sound stage resolution. Lighting is a huge factor, but so is something like having metadata on a monitor in front of you that draws your attention away from the "free air"...or even one’s physical/emotional state (rested vs fatigued, sick vs healthy, etc). Fascinating chit.
And lastly, and its pretty pedantic, but THANK YOU for calling the wall behind the speakers the FRONT wall and the wall behind the listening spot the REAR wall. Drives me nuts when people reverse it (and I see and hear it happening A LOT in hifi discussions).
Ok...time to get back to work on my GRR x-Statik build. ;)
Outstanding job on this video, BTW!
I bought a FX Audio DAC for 50 bucks. I replaces the electrolytic capacitors with film caps and now it sounds like a $3,000 DAC. Oh ya I forgot about the OPA-627 "can" style op amp. That was a bit pricey, but holly smokes!!!!
Ty, gonna give this a shot
Thank you .
Great video mate. Welldone.
Thank you for the useful advice
You're cracking me up. Before I go further, siri is using decimals, while you use inches for sub foot numbers.
She’s fired! In all seriousness, it gets us close enough.
Yup high quality demonstration with lots of utility, this is valuable info, cant believe there arent 5 times the subscribers here! Just waiting for the trolls who inevitably show up to complain about something...
Michael Mityok
Yup, the bitch trolls with nothing better to do than insult and complain are everywhere, probably and especially in vids regarding HiFi. I like to kill em with kindness, and a lot of em have come around when you’re super nice. No need to be a jerk like them.
@@curtiswhyte3297
I wasn’t referring to the original comment. I was just talking about trolls in general, as I believe Michael was also because of how he said, “just waiting”, like it hadn’t occurred yet.
You just blew my mind!
Can’t believe you wear shoes indoors. Even animals don’t do that! Great video and very helpful! 😁
Ron!!!!!! You are the best!!!!!!!!!!
No way! You’re the best!
"When you're done, you should have something like this" See's two babies rolling around... I guess I've been doing it wrong?
Awesome tutorial!
Ron thanks so much for the tutorial on LOTS..
Absolutely achieved the perfect setup for my room which is a challenge but the speakers disappear to improving sound stage even in my 10’ x 11’ room.
Just got back into my passion for HiFi (approaching empty nester) and between you and Sean, and even cheap audio man has made a huge difference..
My first toe in the HiFi water with everyone’s input:
ITOAVX SA3 and PA3
Warfedale Diamond 11.2’s
Ifi Zen blue
S.M.S.L M300
I don’t know if you reviewed the ifi Zen Blue... I have to say WOW..especially running through my M300 DAC.
My fiancé purchased the Fluence RT83 turntable as a Christmas gift I was thinking this would make a huge delta from the old days with vinyl..
A/B comparison I was astonished!!!
Streaming from my IPHONE via ifi Zen blue the details, sound stage to depth..like symbol hits just elongated to the end is outstanding, and hearing things in familiar important pieces I never heard before was impressive..
I ended up returning the turntable.
Love to see you do the same on streaming and how to set it up right. Also comparing the latest in bluetooth vs WiFi..
Love your show and a huge fan!!!
William
Late here but good for you emptying nest and getting back to Hi Fi. Hopefully you can set up in a larger room. Had my rig stored for many years. Just had amp preamp recapped and set up my 19'x30' fam room into listenimg room. Speakers far from walls per Rons vid. In my case my tt with a nice cart and audiophile or good quality records sound great!
Hi William, can you please tell me at what distance did you finally place the speakers?
Wow wow wow Just amazing how good is this, even my wife was very impressed she heard some of her albums like never before Thank you so much Sir
Great information in your video as always. Thanks for sharing so much knowledge. Really bad idea to point the laser in to the camera. Lasers in our eyes can cause irreparable damage. You don't want to give others any ideas about doing that.
Your technique is very interesting. Congratulations!! Where should I place my speakers if my listening room has one side with an opening about 1/2 its width? For a good soundstage should the speakers be placed on the side with the opening or the opposite ?
Marvellous! Thanks Ron.
Good video I followed your instructions from your previous speaker placement video and worked out great. Should do one for subwoofers placement.
I normally have my own way. But this sounds very interesting. I got to try this. Thanks Ron!
Yep. My father was telling me that his speakers are front ported, so it doesn’t matter where they are. Until recently, when I came and moved them away from the wall and he’ve heard the thing. Now he’s a believer)
Thanks for sharing the technique, I’ve done it mostly by ear. I’ll certainly try it.
But what about oddly shaped listening rooms/areas? For example, I have a 13ft wide, but quite long living room. Part of it is the TV/HiFi area, another part is the dining area, another part is the kitchen area. There are no walls in between. What do I do?!
Nice Job! The more transparent your system the more fine the movements can give improvement. I was at an audiophile club and helped them set up for a listening party.
The speakers were getting fine tuned for the sound stage. The designer finally liked the position and put on an album. The recording of a bird flew in from high left, landed just slightly right, and flew off to the high right. When the system has the ability, the recording is well made and the sound stage is perfect, a holographic magic that can make the music bring the dead back to life even if just for a song or two. You can literally hear the individual breaths of the singers, the ridges of the strings on the base and the keys of the trumpet valves sliding and clicking. The 4 jazz musicians all had there position where the music came from. While I understand the science, it still seems more of magic and art. Surreal is my best description. What I took home that day was the magic is possible. You start with the science to get close and then learn the art to perfect the magic. I now work for that Speaker system designer. Not a day goes by I don't learn as much as I can handle. I still have a long way to go. I will say my system in my little apartment blows my friends away. My room treatment is pure mad scientist. It wouldn't work anywhere else.
Always wondered a good setup. Now if only I didn't have a 120" screen in between to consider...
The "problem" with these approaches based on calculations, is that if one single factor cannot be accomplished, the the entire process is rendered pointless. Case in point, my listening position is fixed - it cannot be moved in any direction back and forth due to the layout of the apartment, nor can my speaker position move any further out from the wall than about 30cm (again due to how the room is configured). It would only take one of these limitations to prevent me getting an optimised soundstage. How many of us have rooms with symmetric walls, let alone a dedicated listening room where we can practically live with speakers dragged out into the room like this? I hardly know anyone with this luxury, we are pretty much all stuck with having to place speakers in our general living rooms. Having speakers sat out and a meter or so off the wall is just completely impractical. Something else not mentioned here too, is ceiling height. Room treatment will also play a huge role in how you perceive sound in your particular place - reflective sound and standing waves are EVERYTHING, and none of this can be calculated in line with the instructions in this video. Yes the poster says that this is a "starting point"...but quite honestly, you might as well just say "try your speakers in different positions, toed in/straight on, and see how they sound"....as measurements really are of little use.
You’re always stepping up your game. Taket level 👍
Hey thanks!
I want to be brief for the time being, this LOTS system works some serious magic with my speaker placement, Ron thank you so much for a clear understanding of what to listen for and how to go about doing it, music is now detached from my speakers with a spooky holographic phantom image.
Yessssss!
Hi Ron ... I learned a lot in your video... one of things I learned was to be more humble! Though I know a lot about acoustics ...I knew nothing of how to place speakers. Thank you for your 10 placement tips!
Humbly
Ron Jay Barnett
HolyFreakinTamoli does this make a difference! My listening room is my private office where I spend most of my time. It's only 11'-2" x 19'-6", but I'm already positioned the correct 6'-6" off the back wall (which has an Ikea 5x5 Kallax bookshelf back there). So now moving my Buchardt S400's 6"-6" out from the front wall (2'-6" previously) is A-freaking-MAYzing! Now I see what y'all have been saying about the soundstage - and this is just my first attempt! I also have the reality of a big-ass drawing table right in front of me and my 27" iMac monitor to my right, but still.... great advice, and I'll keep working with this. Thanks!
P.s: the 400's are about 120 hours broken in, so another 180 to go.
Man what a great and simple way to start or check your current speaker placement! Have a pair of Maggies .7 in my living room and thought I had found a good setup after countless hours... after ten minutes with your method I found magic all over again! Thanks, you rock!
I have Magnepan 0.7's also and my main issue is my listening couch is up againts a knee wall but I do have sloped ceiling that should help somewhat. They are positioned 44 inches from the front wall and 84 inches apart and approximately eleven feet from my couch Non the less they sound they sound pretty darn good with good soundstage and inner detail, but always wonder if they could sound even better. How much watts/amps do you have driving your .7's??
@@Jack96993 Glad to hear you're having a nice time with your system too. I am driving my .7's with an old Nad M3 integrated. Puts out 180w per channel @ 8 or 4ohms but more importantly, it drives the speakers with a decent amount of current. No analogue sources, just a Bluesound streaming Tidal. Honest and happy.
@@patricioruiz1187
Hey Patricio! Your Nad should be more than enough watts/current to drive your 0.7's
I tried with my tube amp VAC PA 35 35 that sounds magical but just not enough juice!So I found a used 54lb class D, beast of an amp made by Spectron from back in the mid 2000's
It's does 500watts@8ohm 650@4ohms &1,200@ 2ohms! But the really important spec is it's ability to output 65 amps for 500 milliseconds! Wow does it make my Maggie's sing!!
My Spectron amp driving the Maggie's with lots of juice (watts/current)and listen to the cymbals shimmer
Watch "Magnepan .7's playing SRV" on TH-cam
th-cam.com/video/WUPxHx995ZA/w-d-xo.html
Thanks for a very useful tool.
I have been working within the GRID for a month now and must admit it is absolutely one of the best tools I have encountered. Not being afraid to toss speakers and stuff about, due to easy return to point of origin. I have kept the original settings as a ref, and ending not far from old position. Speakers apx. 6" forwards and about a foot closer to each other and basically no toe inn, the real diff is moving my chair from the back wall by another 2´. Makes the room close to a nearfield situation but by Jove, it works.
Thanks, mate. A happy dude here :)
Yes!
*damn this clarity and wide sound stage i never heard from my klipsch before. very nice, thx:.
Thanks!
How do I apply this for an uneven room? My system is centered at 1/3 on the right side of the room
Found the sweet spot! Thanks! 👍
cant wait to try this.
Ron, you swap in and out different speakers Al day long.
The question is if you determine a spot in your room for speaker placement. That placement is room dependent. If you swap in another set of speakers is it going to be on the exact place??
(When it is the same room with its dimensions it should probably be.)
Is the placement spot, different with different types OB/box/lineAray and so on?
Greetings from Germany! Found this channel a few days ago, pretty cool so far! Now that we have a bunch of time, I'm going to try this out today. I'm curious to see what it does to my 'stereo triangle' or if my speakers end up somewhere else.
Prepare yourself lol. Things will never be the same after this.
Best advice was to turn the lights off. Maybe i‘ll never turn in on again while listening 🙈
Side note: Lord Of The Squirrels (L.O.T.S.) is a great mountain biking trail in Whistler.
Dear NRD, was using the magic triangle. Mmmmm, not getti g a great soundstage. Waiting for tomorrow night to try your advice. I love your reasoning, starting rediculously wrong working to the best sound position. Makes perfect sense.
Only drawback for me....😮😮😮 each speaker weighs 38kg (83 pounds). Gym workout😅😅😅😅
Post script. Music selected, floor marked and measured. Speakers positioned next to my listening chair. Evening fell and I started. The initial sound was intended to be horrendous. Thus, you establish a point of reference from which you could only improve.
I ended up with a much better sound stage than using the magic triangle principle. Moving the speakers a bit inwards and outwards from the rail track helped a lot finding the sweet spot. Then toe-ing the speakers a bit in eas the final perfect tune.
Thanks again NRD for the advice.
Further to this, I'm leaving the marked rail track and speakers as-is for at least a two week listening period. This way, I think I can get my ears tuned to its new position. After two weeks, I'll then again adjust the position marginally just to make sure I did indeed get the best position. Reason, I found the with the initial listening experiment, my mind and ears got a bit "numb" with all the critical and strenuous listening.
As soon as I get past the "WAF" I am totally doing this...!
Hey maybe a little tip to measure the center distance between the speakers. Maybe most already know, but if you measure from the outside of one speaker to the inside of the other speaker is the same distance as center to center. So outside to inside might be an easier way to measure. It sure is for me
Good tip, only if you dont own speakers like the Lintons. 😂
Great tutorial. Aren’t you mixing up decimal with imperial? 5.3 (decimal) is not 5’3” (imperial), I don’t think. Perhaps not a critical difference but.....
Cool advice. About lights off: if you have any light dimmers, thyristors can be putting nasty electrical spikes on the mains supply. Lights off: no electrical spikes. Also LEDs are known to generate radio frequency (RF) interference (RFI). Neons indicators in power strips add white RF noise. RFI / electrical interference may be disturbing the mains frequency transformers of your gear leading to a more constricted sound. All the best, Rob
Thanks!
Game changer. I had never worried too much about my listening position relative to the room, but that combined with having my speakers almost in the middle of the room (front to back) has created a depth of soundstage I hadn't heard before in my space. I'm using Cornwall IV speakers, nowhere near a corner or wall :)
Very good. Thanks
nice, i subscribed. My only suggestion is you could have cut the length of the video signidicantly. all the math of the tape lines - 1 diagram could have cut 10 minutes .
Really would have liked to see a complete overview of what your room looked like when done. I’m afraid after doing this, the aesthetics might not be good, I.e. speakers would be placed in traffic path for our particular room. Great video in any case.
This.
My wife will not be in love with the aesthetics one single bit.
Gonna have to get creative on how I “sell” the new speaker. locations. Lol
Quite sure this is a dumb question but I assume this is geared towards actual listening rooms for stereo music. Do these principles (or something like it) apply to home theater setups? Is there something similar for 5.1 and beyond?
You are a genius! I followed your advice and it was like "Abracadaudio". Speakers are surprisingly far into the room but the sound stage is amazing. Thank you!
Awesome!
Excellent!
Maybe too obvious, but you didn’t mention it…..to do this, longer speaker cables will be necessary to get fully extended to the listening parallel location, unless one already has the necessary length, or wants to also move the gear setup too.
Yup, that’s true