Guys! Dont forget to enter the sweepstakes at WWS! bit.ly/WorldWideSweepstakes Also, be sure to ask your questions about acoustic treatment! I am here to help you guys make the right choice!
I don't know why this is continually overlooked but in pro installations (movie theaters) they simply use indoor/outdoor carpeting as wallpaper to damp reflected sound.
I moved into a new house, it has a great room with a vaulted ceiling. We unpacked our stuff & untidily stacked the room up clothes, bedding & mainly soft furnishings. I hurridly set up the hi-fi, and it sounded fantastic. Later, once the room had been cleared of clutter, it was though someone had been in and stolen the system, and switched the speakers for a pair of biscuit tins.
I know right...ironically no one likes carpet and acoustic (popcorn ceiling) the days...yet that’s like the best for this application haha. Everyone has to have their fancy hard wood floors. Solution...have stuff in the room. A big comfy couch, large area rug, pillows all that jazz and it will help a bit :)
In an empty room (or entire house) I would first bring in all the furnishings, couches, chairs, rugs, curtains, book shelves, all these will dramatically change the acoustic dynamics and properties of said room, THEN reevaluate, then start bringing in the absorbers, diffusers, bass traps etc.
I'm thinking of treating my room. But I'm also in the middle of renovating it. This is the approach I was going for too. First get everything done and then look for treatment. Good point!
I love this video! I build a lot of studios here in LA and having panels with an air gap (being able to get the panel off the wall) is a big helper for getting effective absorption. The way I do it is instead of building a frame AROUND the insulation, build it to fit the back and use a 2" wide piece of wood. So that way when you wrap the fabric, you wrap it around that piece as well and so when you mount the thing on the wall, you end up with a nice 2" air gap behind it, but it looks mounted directly to the wall.
I totally agree with the rug assessment. After wrapping most of the 3 walls with heavy drapes, I found a huge used carpet with pad. Immediately had huge improvement.
My best Magnepan setup used 18 inch diameter sonotubes lined with 6 inch insulation and covered with light cloth to give them color. These were placed along the front wall six inched apart and on spikes that allowed sound to enter the top and bottom. Top and bottom were separated from ceiling and floor, again by six inched. The Magnepans were placed out into the room 5 feet from these. This room was 22' by 51' and sloped upward from speaker end. This scattered the rear wave and the soundstage was breathtaking. This supports the dipole recommendation on this excellent video.
Popcorn ceilings suck when it comes to repairs but easier than stucco to blend in a repair. I prefer the look of a smooth ceiling. Textured ceilings let builders hide flaws.
GREAT VIDEO, Ron - and you're absolutely right, acoustically treating the room is soo important and it's often neglected. I took my own sound system to a completely different level when I began experimenting with some modest treatments a couple years back, and those room treatments I now consider the second most important hi-fi purchase I ever made (second only to the speakers themselves).
We have tile throughout our house. First thing we did to knock the echo down a couple of notches... Put in a moderately thick wool rug area rug and several pieces of furniture. We also have some huge windows and a sliding glass door, so we put curtains up. Been thinking about the art covered GIK panels next, and probably a pair of bass traps. Will have to try a rug pad now that you've mentioned it. FYI you can do french cleats to inexpensively hang things off walls. Just cut an angle on a rectangular pieces of plywood, one side goes on the wall, the other on the object to hang.
Hi Ron, I completely agree with all you have said however, I have found that another improvement in the room acoustics can be achieved by covering the wall behind the listening position with limp membrane sealed bass traps. I constructed mine using timber frames eight inches deep fixed onto an MDF back panel. I filled the frame with loft insulation leaving a one inch gap between the insulation and the front of the frame. I then used 2mm thick rubber sheet over the front and used beading to make an air tight seal between the rubber sheet and the frame. The improvement in the room acoustics is astonishing especially in the bass.
Great video, Ron. I found that pulling back my carpet away from my speakers and keeping it just several feet around my listening area improved the liveliness of my room. The large rug deadened the room too much. Test the rug - pull it back and forth and see what works best.
I hadn't thought about the need for a diffuser to scatter frequencies evenly. In studio settings it's common advice to place diffusers behind the listener, but I love the idea of putting it behind the speakers and side first reflections. Gonna have to play around with it. You've very quickly become my favorite audio TH-camr. Especially love the acoustics content. Awesome job.
I have two big thick carpets on my side walls, this made a huge differens in our concrete room. From cold to warm, I think I put rug pad behind them future on. Big thanks for this video
Wall absorbers and bass traps are not the same thing. I never heard anyone say wall absorbers are for bass - they'd need to be a foot or two thick. A good manufacturer will tell you what frequency range a given panel is designed for (same goes for diffusers). Ultimately you need a combination of both. Also don't forget the ceiling. Best advice I got from a 75 year old sound engineer was you want a room that's 50:50, half dead, half live. I find this works, it doesn't even matter which half or if all the absorption is in one half and all the diffusion in the other, just half the surface area, however you want to arrange it.
Room acoustics and quality loudspeakers with a proper set-up across the frequency band. That’s the foundation that will make even the mid market components sound great. Then you can chase DACs, turntables, gold vs silver and the other esoteric stuff to actually hear the improvements you’ve made instead of imaging what you hear through a colored sound full of phase distortion.
Ron, when i went to my carpet guy looking for a thick rug to quiet the room he said it's not the thickness that matters, it's the density. Had him make up 2 sections of high density Shaw Carpet with extra thick pads.
My current room has wall to wall carpet with a dense under-lament. Best decision ever. The wall cavities were also filled with some of the most dense wall insulation I could find (due to exterior room walls being super hard/dense and therefore Bass would go through sheet-rock, but then get reflected back into the room. So a very dense wall insulation makes for some good bass-absorption). Then 1st Reflections, plus some Bass absorption, and finally some scattering. The most I've ever spent on the Room vs. the equipment in the room, and simply worth every penny!!!
I make my own panels. I use 1x3 pine which really are .75x2.75. To attach them.to the walls I get wood strapping. The pieces are 1x2 which really are .75x~1.75. I make them whatever the with of the panels are...usually 2 ft wide. Screw them to the frames and then use 3m picture frame velcro (16 pound kind) to hold the panels to the wall at 4 separate points. Holds them no problem and spaces the panels off the wall about 1.5 inches.
Too bad most people don't understand this. I see so many pictures on the web of expensive gear in rooms not treated. The biggest sin is speakers shoved up against a wall or not properly set up. They a missing the potential of what they could experience. I guess ignorance is bliss.
Getting a panel away from a wall- what about a tv mount? Something so you can pull it out or push it back to the wall when not doing critical listening?
Killer installment, Ron! Thanks for offering up such a continually varied, wide ranging, interesting set of topics. Best of TH-cam, I’d subscribe again if I could 😂
You should use a mirror to catch the reflection behind your dipoles on the front wall. The reflection, while in your listening position, will not be directly behind your speakers but inside a bit.
We just added Vant panels to our piano room. They sit 1” off the wall mounted on brackets, designed for headboard or office but look and work great for sound panels.
Hey Ron and everyone. About distancing the panel from the wall. I constructed home-made panels that are similar to the ones you described for absorption. To distance them from the wall, I simply screwed a cork bottle cap in each corner of each panel. I found half of it makes a decent length but you could use the full cap I assume to make more distance. Hope it helps!
What would you say about the Bricks on a rear wall ? I mean im thinking of covering the back wall of my studio room with bricks (just for the sake of elegancy ) Is that a bad idea ? Maybe i can put some diffusers and absorbers on it as well- Thank you
I have a home theater system and I just did, for the 1st time, first reflection points (left, right, and ceiling - I already had carpet). I did it cheap and I did it DYI. The difference is day and night. I also use REW and a UMIK-1 so I am also able to actually see what it is doing along with hearing what it is doing. Now I wonder why I waited 20 years to try it. Audyssey can't thank me enough lol
Vertical Blinds "aimed" 45 degrees to the wall on which their mounted, with the open side of the triangle facing your front wall. It works pretty good, their retractable & can go floor to ceiling if you want.
Now I think I know why my budget stereo system sounds so good in my bedroom...my bed is like a giant sound absorbing panel that is stood off from the ground. The perfect blend of acoustics and comfort.
I'm going with 9 inch Rock wool safe n sound panels (3 layers of 3 inch batts) for my first reflection points (on either side of the mix seat) that I'm going to mount flush to the wall. At this thickness, I don't think it needs a gap. I just finished installing 18x18 inch column style floor to ceiling traps in the corners.
Excellent video, Ron. I could not agree more. One of the biggest improvements I made to my (small) listening area in last year, by far, was to put up some GIK Alpha 4A diffusor panels. GIK has great information on their website and also excellent, affordably-priced products. Cheers and thanks.
All the rooms in my home are filled with acoustic diffusers and absorbers: carpet, couches, soft and hard chairs, tables, books, shelves, dogs, cats, kids, lamps, pictures, curtains, doorways, ceiling fans, pillows, desks...etc. There is no space left for objects whose sole purpose is to treat sound.
Good video! For keeping panels out from walls, an ordinary right angle bracket will work. These are the kind that cabinet makers often use for attaching shelves. They can be found in any hardware store, and come in different sizes. One side to the wall, and the other to each of the four corners of the panel, if it has a wooden frame. I have also read in many places that if you put a panel in each of the four corners of a room and angled across the corner, it gives you a very large space behind the panel and helps the absorption immensely.
Just remember that the Airgap may NOT exceed the thikness of your damping material , otherwise the gap being so big the effiency goes down. Example if your panels damping is 10 cm thick then your Airgap should NOT exceed 10 cm . so if you have a 5 cm thick damping material and a 10 cm airgap you actually make the absorbtion worse . The optimal is 10 to 8 so if have 10 cm damping then go for 8 cm airgap . ( this refer to acoustic wall pannels as well as bass traps ) The rule of thumb is more mass equal more absorbtion in lower frequencies . And for shure you can use angle brackets , they work pretty damn good and cheap too : )
I've made 5 Arqen panels for my listening room. They really work great, really opens up the room. I made mine from 1/2" x24" x 8' blue styrofoam insulation available at Lowes. You can cut it with a razor knife and a straight edge, or better yet there is now a special blade for cutting foam on a table saw. Use white carpenter's glue to assemble, then lightly sand to remove the gloss before painting with latex paint. I also have 12 bass traps in my room, 4, 2' x 6' in each corner, 4, 2' x 2' in each ceiling wall corner, and 4, 2' x 4' traps on the side, back and front ceiling wall interfaces. All traps are made from Owens Corning fiberglass, 4" thick. You don't need to make a frame for them, I just covered mine with an open weave burlap, and used hot melt glue to affix it at the back of the panel. Hot melt is great, if you screw up just pull off the burlap and glue again. To make them, lay your panel on a table.Then take thin wood about 4" x 6", (I used vinyl siding samples from Home Depot) drill a 1/8" hole in the center of 4 of these pieces and knot a 2' length of mason's string line through it. Place the 4 pieces about 4" or 5" in from the corners of the panel. From the back of the panel, push a piece of wire through the panel. Then hook the string to the wire and pull it through to the back. The strings should now be on top of the table when the panel is laid back down. Now, cut a piece of builder's paper (Home Depot) to the same size as the panel. This is our limp membrane, which allows the bass notes to be absorbed, without disturbing the highs. Place the paper on top of the panel and tack with glue. Cut your burlap or other open weave material oversize to allow it to be glued on the back of the panel. Now, flip the panel over and glue the burlap to the back, taking care to fold over the corners neatly. If you're anal like me, you can glue plastic drywall corner bead all around the edges of the fibreglass (for a slightly cleaner look) then cover with paper and material. To mount the panels at the ceiling/wall interface, at a 45 degree angle, I used 2 nails in the ceiling and 2 in the wall. I used a stretchy 1/8" elastic cord and made a 4" loop in it, and then tied it to the correct length of each string. The cord allows you to pull the cord over each nail, and then holds the panel tight against the wall and ceiling. Your room will now be drastically improved. Now goest thou, and do likewise.
Which Arqen panels did you build? I didn't realize you can use rigid foam so that's cool. I'm struggling to visualize your absorber panels. Got a link?
Another great video. I started a bit of a search and found a Canadian manufacturer of acoustic panels that can also apply photos or prints to them. An interesting way to add some art to the room and treat the acoustic anomalies of the room at the same time.
Good info on room treatment. I might add that the material which the rug is made of is also significant for the sound. Natural materials like wool and cotton will sound better than synthetic stuff like nylon, polyester, etc. One can demonstrate this by holding a piece of cotton or wool about 4” from your ear. Then snap your fingers next to your ear and listen to how the snap sounds. Then do the same with a synthetic fabric. The snap will sound like a sharp snap with the natural material and will sound more like a splat with the synthetic. An easy way to demo this in your home is to lay several cotton towels on the floor of your music room. Listen to some music without then with the towels. It will sound much more natural with the towels. I learned this from Pascal Ravach from Mutineers Audio. Same applies for side wall panels.
Jumping to Aug 2023. My loft space : 30 x 24 x 15 ft high. 12x12 shag rug defines my listening room-within-room. Speakers will be Spatial Audio Lab X4's or X5 or X3 or Q6, whatever I can afford. It was your gold-standard speaker demos (nothing else on YT comes close) that convinced me to go open baffle. I like Maggie 1.7i and Eminent Tech LFT-8C also, a lot in fact, but the Spatial Audio Labs are just too good. No idea yet re: electronics -- because I'm following your advice. Room first. Look up, you said. It's a long way up in my space. What room treatments go up there? Then my side walls are 10 ft away with huge windows on one side. Is there anybody I can send pics to for some introductory recommendations?
Diffusion can also make soundstage more "diffused" and less clear. Your brain uses the normal way sound bounces around a room to tell where sound is coming from. If you scatter the sound too much your brain can't tell where the sound is supposed to come from.
same experience for me, new room and even before considering treating the side walls putting a large shaggy carpet and a thick (non-leathery) sofa changed the room sound completely (specifically the room modes)
Hi Ron, considering how long ago this was done and how far you’ve come in your new shed, just hoping that you see this with little expectation. I was really intrigued about the comment on the impact the ceiling could have. I have speakers with a downward facing port. How are these controlled? By not buying I guess? They do rely on first and second reflection to give a sense of expansive base by definition. Also, when seating near a rear wall, is a diffuser placed right behind the head a good idea? I have issues with mids and thought perhaps this could help as I have the speakers in the short side of the room flanking the tv and a nice piece of furniture with glass and so on, so controlling second reflection is not really an option. Thanks and congrats on the success of the channel.
Hey brother , no one can tell me if having a 6'X7' opening (double French doors) at the rear wall of my room can help me if I am square, 16'X16' in my listening room. There is 13' of room space to my rear. How do I calculate this into the VOS equation???? OR, should I just close them and put heavy curtains over the glass doors?
I’ll just share this, which may apply more to musicians looking for soundproofing, but I suppose could be a budget thing for avid listeners who aren’t rich. On one music room, I took two 12’ 2x4’s, put one on one wall horizontally about at 7’ from the floor (use a stud finder, drill and screws) and , took the other one and did the same thing on the opposite wall. Now, measuring the distance from the walls to each other, cut two more long 2x4’s that then rested by their ends on the first two boards. Then took two more 2x4’s and rested them on the second two boards. I hung moving blankets (that had been folded twice and grommeted on one end into a long panel, giving four layers of blanket) up by taking two of these “panels” and nearly joining them together at the top with zip ties. They then hung over the 2x4 like a saddle over a horse. This gave me the ability to create a “booth” that could be as large as the room, or smaller of any size or rectangular shape and any place in the room. Eventually I just settled on them just off the walls. Surprisingly, the weight wasn’t much of a factor but there would be a hair of sag. So just took a roughly 7’ board and used it to support the boards in the middle which were covered by the panels. No nailing or anything just the weight would hold them in place.
I try to give a donation (dont have a credit card) and I see you have Paypal. People need to understand that this kind of good advice comes with a price = the one that teaches and passes on knowledge spent his years for that. And you save a lot of money and time. To have acoustic treatment here costs (much) money and now I can try to do it myself. Thank you sir.
Hi Ron, Thanks for taking the time to take this video! I'll definitely use it as a reference in the future! I have my own channel, but focusing on car audio, which has it's own challenges, if not not even more complex, than home audio. It's great to see your down to earth way of explaining things, similar to what i do kicking people to understand the importance of speaker locations, installation and tuning in a car. I'm just starting my home audio project too (as we have so much time now unfortunately) and planning to build my own 3way OB dipole speakers, so again it's nice to see that you have a sweet spot for those type of speakers. ;) Quick question though: is it still rare that people run their speakers fully active indoors?
Thanks for the compliments I appreciate it. In regards to active speakers in house I really can’t comment on it as I’m certainly not an expert with anything active related!
I wish I could put a diffuser between my speakers but I have a TV there due to space limitations. I just throw a blanket on the TV when I listen. I wonder if diffusers would make a difference behind the speakers?
Well, buying ”scientifically” calculated real wood diffusors for 1k USD (which is the kind of normal for four relatively small ones) just to find out if it helps, makes me wonder. This is the reason I haven´t pulled the trigger, and probably won´t, ever. I´m kind of leaning towards the home hack you disregared Ron. Cannot believe that a none scientifically calculated diffusor could do any harm, maybe not as effective though. What could happen, not spreading all the frequencies evenly? Not spreading them in a coherent direction? Makes me wonder... 🤔
Owens Corning fiberglass is super hard to get in Canada....Roxul/Rockwool compressed fiber board can be bought at Rona/Home depot for $60 (6 sheets @ 2'x4' )
Thanks Ron for another great video. My hifi is far from ideal setup. Due to kids playing around with my hifi, I’ve had to move my system to the bedroom. I have a Magnepan LRS speakers on each side of my bed, the speakers are about 3 1/2 foot from the wall and about 7 1/2 foot apart. The LRS are toeing in. At the foot end of my bed I have a Kallax shelf from Ikea with my system on it. I’d like to put up some panels but have no idea where to start. If my speakers are toeing in, do I still use the mirror to find the 1st and 2nd reflection point? I think defusers Behind the LRS and possibly cover the Kallax shelf may be a good start as I do have thick carpet in the room already. Thanks again
Maybe it’s a good next content if you could explain this in comparison with digital sound processors room correction? If the traditional room correction necessary with DSP? Or is DSP just gimmicky. I really would like to know more.
Rizal Ahmad DSP can’t correct room modes. It helps. But a DSP will work really well after the room is treated. Even if as simple as treating the first reflection points at your ear level in your seating position.
Good question (complex issue); DSP and treatment attack different problems. Examining acoustic treatments, vis-à-vis DSP, either approach can significantly improve the performance of the room response. Ideally both treatment and DSP are utilized for dramatically improvement. DSP 1.) Room modes/resonances create big peaks that must be tamed via EQ, otherwise they'll dominate the spectral balance. Treatments (bass traps) 2.) Excessive LF decay rates. Acoustic treatments can be used to address specific issues. The most impactful is low frequency damping, ... ie., bass traps. Uniform decay top to bottom is the goal, and an untreated room exhibits excessive LF energy relative to mid and hi freqs. Bass trapping is the answer and the result is clarity, ie., tight, tuneful bass that's clearly delineated. Bass transients are revealed because the excessive bass energy from the previous note is damped, thus dissipates adequately to allow the current transient detail to be fully resolved. 3.) Wall reflection points; Only after the big LF peaks are EQ'd down, and adequate LF damping is employed, then the SPECULAR region is addressed with diffusion and absorption. ("Waves" of pressure down low, transitions to "rays" of energy up high. Due to the physics of wavelength size and how the energy interacts in our rooms, the room sound behaves differently above and below the room's TRANSITION frequency. Modal range below transition, and the Specular range above. Transition frequency is a function of room size, in most rooms is somewhere between 200hz and 400hz, it varies.)
1/4 of the wavelength of the frequency you want to absorb. If you wanted to absorb 40Hz you would place rockwool 2.15M away from the wall or a rockwool panel 2.15M thick right up against the wall. This takes up a hell of a lot of room so a realistic absorption bandwidth is 100Hz to 20,000Hz where you would only need to keep your absorption 86cm away from the wall
I am setting up my first system in another country (I live in 2 nations) and these houses are the WORST (for acoustics)! Everywhere its 'concrete and TILES'. I told my wife "I need to fix the acoustics but I need to know how?" That was 2 days ago and now I suddenly see this video and you ANSWER my questions! Isnt that wonderfull!
As a CI dealer you are 100% correct, the room is the biggest speaker 🔈. Cheap gear in a treated room will outperform expensive gear in a crap room every time. Your 4th point and mirror 🪞 for 1st order reflections… Pure gold. New to your channel, and LS50 Meta recommendation. Pit in my order with Kef, can’t wait. Thanks so much Ron 🙏🏻
I had to look at the date on this video befor deciding to post. I made my own pannels ,later on I made spacers out of wood. I screwed the 4 pieces of wood at each corner on the back of the panel to make a seperator between the wall and the pannel. So it was like free. The 4 small pieces were like 2``x2`` in size.
Ron - great video. Please allow me to share some of my personal acoustic thoughts from years of experimentation .... Measurements first: You can't manage what you can't measure plays a role here. At the very least measure frequency response (ideally a flat response is better) and reverb time (to avoid over dampening the room with things that absorb too much sound). I use Dayton Audio OmniMic which allows me to see the troubling frequencies so speaker placement and acoustic treatment placement experimentation can begin and note its affect. Often solving one problem frequency creates a new problem so it'll take patience to try and optimize speaker and acoustical treatment placement. Treatment strategy: for most domestic sized rooms absorption of low frequencies and reflection and or diffusion of mid to high frequencies works well. This avoids over dampening. The transition frequency range for most home rooms where sound waves transition to "beams" due to smaller wavelengths is about 300-500Hz so you'll need bass traps to work below this range and diffusion to work above it. Thickness matters: Too often manufacturers sell absorbers and diffusers that are too thin. And the reason you want them thick (at least 6") is so they don't act like a low-pass filter and only operate on some of the frequencies hitting it. You want the absorber or diffuser to work as broadband as possible so as not to skew the frequency range of its reflections and reflections of those reflections. For a diffuser, the depth of its slots or wells (for a QRD or Skyline type) determines its lowest frequency, so for example a 6.75" depth will work down to 500Hz as it is one-quarter of a 500Hz wavelength. Sitting distance from treatments: Normally you can sit much closer to an absorber than a diffuser which needs more space for the scattering to occur so the sound coalesces by the time you hear it. If you need to be close to a diffuser - say on the ceiling or side walls which are near your listening position - then choose a 2-dimensional one (diffuses both horizontally and vertically) so that only about half of the reflections are coming your way.
Probably the best video about acoustic, you have covered gems points... Nailed it. 😊😊😊 But I really like front designs on panels which adds to aesthetic value instead of simple absorber.. I have a Hall as big as yours... Do you have a picture of your setup.? Actually I am thinking of making rockwool panels but with mdf board in front to add designs.. But you said it will not absorb as much as without wooden board in front. But I believe I can make some panels just for aesthetic and some.. Only with clothe wrapped in wooden frame with rockwool
Quadratic diffusion, adsorption and proper speaker placement are all important tools for great sounding room’s. Having a big enough room to work with is also critical in the process.
Fellow Arizonan feeling my pain. Just bought a house and replacing the tile and I would not budge on my demands that the living room/theater had carpet. NO TILE! I do want to note however that you stated absorption is best for bass, this is the exact opposite of true. Absorption is most effective for wavelengths where the material is thicker than 1/4 wavelength of the sound. It still does absorb some sound above that limit but it drops dramatically. So for a 4" thick panel placed on wall, it will absorb 100% of sound at 1000Hz and higher, and below that it drops dramatically, around 12dB per octave. So they reduce echo and such very effectively, but most echo is high frequency effects anyways since lower frequencies don't behave like rays. On that note, that is why placing them away from the wall is so effective, you absorb longer wavelengths with thinner panels.
GAH! I knew you were going to say rug for option #4. Tile is the bane of Arizona. Vinyl plant flooring the bane of the upper midwest (dragging in wet salty slush/snow in the winter). Thankfully I watched this before I ran out and bought a bunch of wall panels/foam. I'm setting up my new listening room in our newly finished basement, and the listening section is bit of an echo chamber. I knew it was going to happen as soon as the drywall went up, and the vinyl plank floor was thrown down. It's wickedly clappy down there. And I've been agonizing over a big 9x12' area rug. ...never thought a rug/carpet pad would add more acoustic absorption to just the carpet. Can't wait to hear what the room sounds like once the rug gets delivered and thrown down. So...I'm waiting on the ceiling treatment. Luckily, from what I've read, the Revel M16 speaker's wave guides were made for the first reflection point. So no sidewall treatment is recommended. ...we'll see.
I've read that something as simple as a bookshelf loaded up with books can provide sufficient enough diffusion in a low-budget home studio. It's obviously not so scientific. But it's better than nothing if the budget is constrained. Thanks for the vid!
Thanks Ron. How about: Rug first, then furnishings and window treatments, then first reflection points? Apparently first reflection points greater than 6 ft from the listening position are not as significant a problem...?
At the begining of the video I was 90% sure that the 4th advice will be a rug. Great videos! P. S. you can go a little more technical on some arguments. Marketing is a powerfull weapon, that doesn't always shares the truth about a specific audio gear.
Are the Vicoustics treatments a reputable source? I had bought from GIK before years ago but they have gone to a pay to build service and it’s Anywhere from 4-6 weeks they tell me
Even if I had the perfect room, amp, pre amp etc.. I’d still continue to buy and test speakers. Thats what it’s all about. I want to hear and experience new things. Keep the ears learning. I love it! Thanks bud!
The easiest way to get the panel materials off of the wall is a D.I.Y. box. You can get cheap wood at any hardware shop either add too the existing box or make new panel surround. I made my own with the thickest Roxul and a DIY box I then added a nice fabric to the front. Just make sure the roxul stays to the front of whatever box at least 2 inches.
Hi Ron, I got echo in my room too. It's the wife repeating her complaints over the looks of the rug, the sound confusers and the dorky insulation panels. Your solutions are effective for hardcore audiophiles only, guys who are single for all eternity. My wife unit is putting up fierce resistance. What do I do? No, can't trade the wife for another one. But I do need good sounding stereo. Thnx for advice!
You can custom make frames that you can stick that rock wool behind and the front can be a print. There are company’s that will make prints out of cotton at almost any size. Stretch, staple, hang
@@Tearial311 Thanks for the good idea, I'll look into it! I'm also considering glueing dampening material underneath the tabletop and behind the furniture. The echo in our living room is so bad you cannot normally hear eachother speak. Peoples' natural reaction is to speak louder, which makes things even worse of course. Music does not stand a chance. It's acoustic mayhem. The consequence of minimalist design.
Believe it or not, there are $15.99 pin-cushion panels from IKEA that are about 20 x 20 x 1 1/2 that work just as good for sound absorption as $350+ "acoustic" panels. When your speakers activate, the sound they produce has bounced off the walls hundreds of times before your ear picks up the sound and registers it to your brain. I agree that 100% absorption creates a dead room, so by all means mix it up. Similar to what BOSE did with the 901s, you want to scatter the frequencies so the same ones don't meet up and cancel each other out. Really, in my experience, the entire idea is to be able to listen to your music as pure as it was when it was recorded and not to introduce any other sounds or subtract any sounds. One good way to test is to listen to your favorite song on your headphones (if you have them) and then see if your open sound system reflects those same properties. Then treat the room to match those acoustics. No, it isn't perfect science, but it's a far better place to start than nothing.
Great question! I would imagine having the rug in front of the speaker will be most critical but remember, the more, the better! Get a big rug if you can!
@@Newrecordday2013 I will probaply borrow a rug from someone to test it first if under the couch makes a difference but I doubt it because i hhave a very soft floor.
It's true. You are hearing the changes in the air pressure waves in the room as pressurized by the speakers, as driven by the electronics. Great sound starts and ends with the room. Even otherwise mediocre speakers and electronics can sound great in a properly adjusted room. And a bean bag chair is also a great bass trap btw.
Good video! I am using Magnepan speakers placed 4.5 ft from the front wall. I can't do much as far as putting things up on the walls but was wondering if putting a 5 ft. plant behind the speakers would help difuse some of the sound coming off the front wall?
I am a music enthousiast. Electronics and speakers are already a case of tolerance in the living room. We have a dog. A rug is not compatible with a dog for various reasons. Absorbers, diffusers, my wife likes art, a piece of rock wool hidden behind cloth and maybe a pattern cut piece of plywood is not exactly our taste of art. Then the waste of space those absorbers cause. We love windows, daylight is so important and the ability to look outside provides a sense of living in a society. Our diffusers are the bookshelf’s and photo and art frames on the wall. Our absorbers are the sofa and lounge chairs for the family and visitors. Also the inbetween transparent curtains in front of the large windows. Other than that sound quality has to come from speaker positioning (limited options), speakers, electronics and cables and above all recording and mastering quality. We enjoy the music even though we have not turned our living space into a studio.
If I don’t have enough room depth to pull my fronts X feet from the front wall, should I use diffusers on the front wall behind the speakers or absorption?
Hi all, ive just come across this on my feed and subscribed,loved rons views and honest opinions on the lower end hifi,im just getting into this audiophile “thing”. At the moment ive just got a technics mini system running on a pair of eltax liberty 3+ speakers,the system is neither here nor there at this moment in time but i really do like the eltax speakers,the bass and mids on these are fantastic,for my ears anyway,and im hoping to start building around these speakers,and hearing from others saying if it sounds good for you then its right for you, so here we go,i need to know about amps and do i need pre amps,are there limits on length of speaker cable pending on the power output on the amplifier,saying that about my speakers,does musical tastes alter what speakers you have running on your system,im 55yrs old,i do manual work and have have a family haha so yeah money’s tight,so everythings on a budget,i like everything from obscure 50’s rockabilly to Tool to gordon lightfoot, yes quite a mixed bag but any information,details i need to look out for,anything to do with audiophilia,as ive found this channel now im hooked,i couldnt believe the range of equipment,old and state of the art thats out there,seeing some of these peoples systems had me engaged like ive never been before, so please any info or tips i would be truly grateful, thank you for your time reading this,god bless.
Guys! Dont forget to enter the sweepstakes at WWS! bit.ly/WorldWideSweepstakes Also, be sure to ask your questions about acoustic treatment! I am here to help you guys make the right choice!
one two inch 8 feet , How far Off the wall..??
Where did you buy the diffuser?
I know you said it wasn't that effective but I thought it was really cool :)
Win a 3 piece suite, there's a sale on, going home could feel good again. Or talk to crimestoppers
@@reserva120 next-door ive worked out
I don't know why this is continually overlooked but in pro installations (movie theaters) they simply use indoor/outdoor carpeting as wallpaper to damp reflected sound.
I moved into a new house, it has a great room with a vaulted ceiling. We unpacked our stuff & untidily stacked the room up clothes, bedding & mainly soft furnishings. I hurridly set up the hi-fi, and it sounded fantastic. Later, once the room had been cleared of clutter, it was though someone had been in and stolen the system, and switched the speakers for a pair of biscuit tins.
I know right...ironically no one likes carpet and acoustic (popcorn ceiling) the days...yet that’s like the best for this application haha. Everyone has to have their fancy hard wood floors. Solution...have stuff in the room. A big comfy couch, large area rug, pillows all that jazz and it will help a bit :)
@@Tigeron1a He wrote it, so I'm assuming he thinks it's "right."
Are you trying to say you agree?! There IS a word for that.
@Gryff Longdong Sheep.
In an empty room (or entire house) I would first bring in all the furnishings, couches, chairs, rugs, curtains, book shelves, all these will dramatically change the acoustic dynamics and properties of said room, THEN reevaluate, then start bringing in the absorbers, diffusers, bass traps etc.
Oh ok I was thinking of living in an empty house with no furniture first.
@@Sloimer good for you slimie....
I'm thinking of treating my room. But I'm also in the middle of renovating it. This is the approach I was going for too. First get everything done and then look for treatment. Good point!
My neighbor has a ghetto studio. And has curtains on his wall with sound absorbing material I’m assuming. So when he records he closes the curtains
I love this video! I build a lot of studios here in LA and having panels with an air gap (being able to get the panel off the wall) is a big helper for getting effective absorption. The way I do it is instead of building a frame AROUND the insulation, build it to fit the back and use a 2" wide piece of wood. So that way when you wrap the fabric, you wrap it around that piece as well and so when you mount the thing on the wall, you end up with a nice 2" air gap behind it, but it looks mounted directly to the wall.
I totally agree with the rug assessment. After wrapping most of the 3 walls with heavy drapes, I found a huge used carpet with pad. Immediately had huge improvement.
My best Magnepan setup used 18 inch diameter sonotubes lined with 6 inch insulation and covered with light cloth to give them color. These were placed along the front wall six inched apart and on spikes that allowed sound to enter the top and bottom. Top and bottom were separated from ceiling and floor, again by six inched. The Magnepans were placed out into the room 5 feet from these. This room was 22' by 51' and sloped upward from speaker end. This scattered the rear wave and the soundstage was breathtaking. This supports the dipole recommendation on this excellent video.
Audiophiles be the only people who get excited about a carpeted room with popcorn ceiling
Popcorn ceilings suck when it comes to repairs but easier than stucco to blend in a repair. I prefer the look of a smooth ceiling. Textured ceilings let builders hide flaws.
Really not. I have some problems with noise from motobike kids. Made few heavy bass-dampering panels and sleep well now.
18:45 Short version: rug and padding on floor. It would make better use of the viewer's time if you put that first.
GREAT VIDEO, Ron - and you're absolutely right, acoustically treating the room is soo important and it's often neglected. I took my own sound system to a completely different level when I began experimenting with some modest treatments a couple years back, and those room treatments I now consider the second most important hi-fi purchase I ever made (second only to the speakers themselves).
We have tile throughout our house. First thing we did to knock the echo down a couple of notches... Put in a moderately thick wool rug area rug and several pieces of furniture. We also have some huge windows and a sliding glass door, so we put curtains up. Been thinking about the art covered GIK panels next, and probably a pair of bass traps. Will have to try a rug pad now that you've mentioned it.
FYI you can do french cleats to inexpensively hang things off walls. Just cut an angle on a rectangular pieces of plywood, one side goes on the wall, the other on the object to hang.
Hi Ron, I completely agree with all you have said however, I have found that another improvement in the room acoustics can be achieved by covering the wall behind the listening position with limp membrane sealed bass traps. I constructed mine using timber frames eight inches deep fixed onto an MDF back panel. I filled the frame with loft insulation leaving a one inch gap between the insulation and the front of the frame. I then used 2mm thick rubber sheet over the front and used beading to make an air tight seal between the rubber sheet and the frame. The improvement in the room acoustics is astonishing especially in the bass.
Very interesting, will keep that in mind
Great video, Ron. I found that pulling back my carpet away from my speakers and keeping it just several feet around my listening area improved the liveliness of my room. The large rug deadened the room too much. Test the rug - pull it back and forth and see what works best.
I hadn't thought about the need for a diffuser to scatter frequencies evenly. In studio settings it's common advice to place diffusers behind the listener, but I love the idea of putting it behind the speakers and side first reflections. Gonna have to play around with it. You've very quickly become my favorite audio TH-camr. Especially love the acoustics content. Awesome job.
I have two big thick carpets on my side walls, this made a huge differens in our concrete room. From cold to warm, I think I put rug pad behind them future on.
Big thanks for this video
GIK sells “ Cloud Mounting Bracket’s” specifically for their panels. They work on the ceiling and walls and separate them from the wall quite a bit.
Wall absorbers and bass traps are not the same thing. I never heard anyone say wall absorbers are for bass - they'd need to be a foot or two thick. A good manufacturer will tell you what frequency range a given panel is designed for (same goes for diffusers). Ultimately you need a combination of both. Also don't forget the ceiling. Best advice I got from a 75 year old sound engineer was you want a room that's 50:50, half dead, half live. I find this works, it doesn't even matter which half or if all the absorption is in one half and all the diffusion in the other, just half the surface area, however you want to arrange it.
This true, and also, sometimes old fashioned wall to wall fitted carpet costs less installed, than a decent rug and two pads cost to buy.
Room acoustics and quality loudspeakers with a proper set-up across the frequency band. That’s the foundation that will make even the mid market components sound great. Then you can chase DACs, turntables, gold vs silver and the other esoteric stuff to actually hear the improvements you’ve made instead of imaging what you hear through a colored sound full of phase distortion.
i have found that putting up some framed paintings on the walls or canvas prints or paintings actually makes a huge difference
Yes that also works.
Ron, when i went to my carpet guy looking for a thick rug to quiet the room he said it's not the thickness that matters, it's the density. Had him make up 2 sections of high density Shaw Carpet with extra thick pads.
Hey Barney, this is great to know! Thanks for sharing!
My current room has wall to wall carpet with a dense under-lament. Best decision ever. The wall cavities were also filled with some of the most dense wall insulation I could find (due to exterior room walls being super hard/dense and therefore Bass would go through sheet-rock, but then get reflected back into the room. So a very dense wall insulation makes for some good bass-absorption). Then 1st Reflections, plus some Bass absorption, and finally some scattering. The most I've ever spent on the Room vs. the equipment in the room, and simply worth every penny!!!
I make my own panels. I use 1x3 pine which really are .75x2.75. To attach them.to the walls I get wood strapping. The pieces are 1x2 which really are .75x~1.75. I make them whatever the with of the panels are...usually 2 ft wide. Screw them to the frames and then use 3m picture frame velcro (16 pound kind) to hold the panels to the wall at 4 separate points. Holds them no problem and spaces the panels off the wall about 1.5 inches.
~ 21:15 good room acoustics: much much more important for good sound than any gear...thanks for those final words!!
Too bad most people don't understand this. I see so many pictures on the web of expensive gear in rooms not treated. The biggest sin is speakers shoved up against a wall or not properly set up. They a missing the potential of what they could experience. I guess ignorance is bliss.
Getting a panel away from a wall- what about a tv mount? Something so you can pull it out or push it back to the wall when not doing critical listening?
Killer installment, Ron! Thanks for offering up such a continually varied, wide ranging, interesting set of topics. Best of TH-cam, I’d subscribe again if I could 😂
Great video Ron! I would start every video going forward mentioning room treatment is more important than the gear. 😉
Agree. Rug is number one and has the highest WAF.
You should use a mirror to catch the reflection behind your dipoles on the front wall. The reflection, while in your listening position, will not be directly behind your speakers but inside a bit.
Great idea! Never thought of that! Thanks for the tip and correction!
Cute little daughter! Those days blow by so quickly so enjoy! Mine is 16 now
We just added Vant panels to our piano room. They sit 1” off the wall mounted on brackets, designed for headboard or office but look and work great for sound panels.
Hey Ron and everyone. About distancing the panel from the wall. I constructed home-made panels that are similar to the ones you described for absorption. To distance them from the wall, I simply screwed a cork bottle cap in each corner of each panel. I found half of it makes a decent length but you could use the full cap I assume to make more distance. Hope it helps!
How did you end up attaching the panel to the wall?
What would you say about the Bricks on a rear wall ? I mean im thinking of covering the back wall of my studio room with bricks (just for the sake of elegancy ) Is that a bad idea ? Maybe i can put some diffusers and absorbers on it as well- Thank you
Great video and your daughter is a super adorable helper
I have a home theater system and I just did, for the 1st time, first reflection points (left, right, and ceiling - I already had carpet). I did it cheap and I did it DYI. The difference is day and night. I also use REW and a UMIK-1 so I am also able to actually see what it is doing along with hearing what it is doing. Now I wonder why I waited 20 years to try it. Audyssey can't thank me enough lol
Vertical Blinds "aimed" 45 degrees to the wall on which their mounted, with the open side of the triangle facing your front wall. It works pretty good, their retractable & can go floor to ceiling if you want.
Now I think I know why my budget stereo system sounds so good in my bedroom...my bed is like a giant sound absorbing panel that is stood off from the ground. The perfect blend of acoustics and comfort.
I'm going with 9 inch Rock wool safe n sound panels (3 layers of 3 inch batts) for my first reflection points (on either side of the mix seat) that I'm going to mount flush to the wall. At this thickness, I don't think it needs a gap. I just finished installing 18x18 inch column style floor to ceiling traps in the corners.
Excellent video, Ron. I could not agree more. One of the biggest improvements I made to my (small) listening area in last year, by far, was to put up some GIK Alpha 4A diffusor panels. GIK has great information on their website and also excellent, affordably-priced products. Cheers and thanks.
Thanks Stephen!
All the rooms in my home are filled with acoustic diffusers and absorbers: carpet, couches, soft and hard chairs, tables, books, shelves, dogs, cats, kids, lamps, pictures, curtains, doorways, ceiling fans, pillows, desks...etc. There is no space left for objects whose sole purpose is to treat sound.
That's what you call a normal house, and it's what the vast majority of non obsessive audiophiles live with daily with minimal mental anguish.
12" shelf brackets worked well for my 4" rockwool panels. Is 8" air space enough???
Good video! For keeping panels out from walls, an ordinary right angle bracket will work. These are the kind that cabinet makers often use for attaching shelves. They can be found in any hardware store, and come in different sizes. One side to the wall, and the other to each of the four corners of the panel, if it has a wooden frame.
I have also read in many places that if you put a panel in each of the four corners of a room and angled across the corner, it gives you a very large space behind the panel and helps the absorption immensely.
Just remember that the Airgap may NOT exceed the thikness of your damping material , otherwise
the gap being so big the effiency goes down.
Example if your panels damping is 10 cm thick then your Airgap should NOT exceed 10 cm .
so if you have a 5 cm thick damping material and a 10 cm airgap you actually make the absorbtion worse .
The optimal is 10 to 8 so if have 10 cm damping then go for 8 cm airgap .
( this refer to acoustic wall pannels as well as bass traps )
The rule of thumb is more mass equal more absorbtion in lower frequencies .
And for shure you can use angle brackets , they work pretty damn good and cheap too : )
I've made 5 Arqen panels for my listening room. They really work great, really opens up the room. I made mine from 1/2" x24" x 8' blue styrofoam insulation available at Lowes. You can cut it with a razor knife and a straight edge, or better yet there is now a special blade for cutting foam on a table saw. Use white carpenter's glue to assemble, then lightly sand to remove the gloss before painting with latex paint.
I also have 12 bass traps in my room, 4, 2' x 6' in each corner, 4, 2' x 2' in each ceiling wall corner, and 4, 2' x 4' traps on the side, back and front ceiling wall interfaces. All traps are made from Owens Corning fiberglass, 4" thick. You don't need to make a frame for them, I just covered mine with an open weave burlap, and used hot melt glue to affix it at the back of the panel. Hot melt is great, if you screw up just pull off the burlap and glue again.
To make them, lay your panel on a table.Then take thin wood about 4" x 6", (I used vinyl siding samples from Home Depot) drill a 1/8" hole in the center of 4 of these pieces and knot a 2' length of mason's string line through it. Place the 4 pieces about 4" or 5" in from the corners of the panel. From the back of the panel, push a piece of wire through the panel. Then hook the string to the wire and pull it through to the back. The strings should now be on top of the table when the panel is laid back down. Now, cut a piece of builder's paper (Home Depot) to the same size as the panel. This is our limp membrane, which allows the bass notes to be absorbed, without disturbing the highs. Place the paper on top of the panel and tack with glue. Cut your burlap or other open weave material oversize to allow it to be glued on the back of the panel. Now, flip the panel over and glue the burlap to the back, taking care to fold over the corners neatly. If you're anal like me, you can glue plastic drywall corner bead all around the edges of the fibreglass (for a slightly cleaner look) then cover with paper and material.
To mount the panels at the ceiling/wall interface, at a 45 degree angle, I used 2 nails in the ceiling and 2 in the wall. I used a stretchy 1/8" elastic cord and made a 4" loop in it, and then tied it to the correct length of each string. The cord allows you to pull the cord over each nail, and then holds the panel tight against the wall and ceiling. Your room will now be drastically improved. Now goest thou, and do likewise.
Dude! Send me pics! Ron@newrecordday.com
Which Arqen panels did you build? I didn't realize you can use rigid foam so that's cool. I'm struggling to visualize your absorber panels. Got a link?
@@Newrecordday2013 I can send pics of my completed room, but I didn't take pictures of the actual construction of the panels.
Just built some wave diffusers for my home theater. Hope they sound good. I already built four Q7 quadratic diffusers. Fingers crossed
Another great video. I started a bit of a search and found a Canadian manufacturer of acoustic panels that can also apply photos or prints to them. An interesting way to add some art to the room and treat the acoustic anomalies of the room at the same time.
Do you have a direct link?
One of your best videos Ron! I watched it a year ago & again today. Such good advice.
Thank you very much for your very understandable explanation. I've heard all this before, but with you it clicked 🕯️...🙏🙏🙏
Awesome show Ron. I learned more from you about room treatment in 23 minutes then I have in all the articles I've read. Thanks again.
Wow! That’s a huge compliment! Thanks so much!
Good info on room treatment. I might add that the material which the rug is made of is also significant for the sound. Natural materials like wool and cotton will sound better than synthetic stuff like nylon, polyester, etc. One can demonstrate this by holding a piece of cotton or wool about 4” from your ear. Then snap your fingers next to your ear and listen to how the snap sounds. Then do the same with a synthetic fabric. The snap will sound like a sharp snap with the natural material and will sound more like a splat with the synthetic. An easy way to demo this in your home is to lay several cotton towels on the floor of your music room. Listen to some music without then with the towels. It will sound much more natural with the towels. I learned this from Pascal Ravach from Mutineers Audio. Same applies for side wall panels.
Thank you so much for jumping in here and offering up some great suggestions!
that's what I use it works and very cheap .
@@justinparkman3585 towels?
Jumping to Aug 2023. My loft space : 30 x 24 x 15 ft high. 12x12 shag rug defines my listening room-within-room. Speakers will be Spatial Audio Lab X4's or X5 or X3 or Q6, whatever I can afford. It was your gold-standard speaker demos (nothing else on YT comes close) that convinced me to go open baffle. I like Maggie 1.7i and Eminent Tech LFT-8C also, a lot in fact, but the Spatial Audio Labs are just too good. No idea yet re: electronics -- because I'm following your advice. Room first. Look up, you said. It's a long way up in my space. What room treatments go up there? Then my side walls are 10 ft away with huge windows on one side. Is there anybody I can send pics to for some introductory recommendations?
Hello bro can u guide me how to calculate diffuser for my listening area . Our church is 25 /40 we put absorbers back n side n front .
Diffusion can also make soundstage more "diffused" and less clear. Your brain uses the normal way sound bounces around a room to tell where sound is coming from. If you scatter the sound too much your brain can't tell where the sound is supposed to come from.
Rare video where author have good understanding and REAL experience in room treathment.
same experience for me, new room and even before considering treating the side walls putting a large shaggy carpet and a thick (non-leathery) sofa changed the room sound completely (specifically the room modes)
Hi Ron, considering how long ago this was done and how far you’ve come in your new shed, just hoping that you see this with little expectation. I was really intrigued about the comment on the impact the ceiling could have. I have speakers with a downward facing port. How are these controlled? By not buying I guess? They do rely on first and second reflection to give a sense of expansive base by definition. Also, when seating near a rear wall, is a diffuser placed right behind the head a good idea? I have issues with mids and thought perhaps this could help as I have the speakers in the short side of the room flanking the tv and a nice piece of furniture with glass and so on, so controlling second reflection is not really an option. Thanks and congrats on the success of the channel.
That's it, I'm having my ceiling carpeted 👍
😂😂😜
my first thought aswell
Hey brother , no one can tell me if having a 6'X7' opening (double French doors) at the rear wall of my room can help me if I am square, 16'X16' in my listening room. There is 13' of room space to my rear. How do I calculate this into the VOS equation???? OR, should I just close them and put heavy curtains over the glass doors?
I’ll just share this, which may apply more to musicians looking for soundproofing, but I suppose could be a budget thing for avid listeners who aren’t rich.
On one music room, I took two 12’ 2x4’s, put one on one wall horizontally about at 7’ from the floor (use a stud finder, drill and screws) and , took the other one and did the same thing on the opposite wall. Now, measuring the distance from the walls to each other, cut two more long 2x4’s that then rested by their ends on the first two boards. Then took two more 2x4’s and rested them on the second two boards. I hung moving blankets (that had been folded twice and grommeted on one end into a long panel, giving four layers of blanket) up by taking two of these “panels” and nearly joining them together at the top with zip ties. They then hung over the 2x4 like a saddle over a horse. This gave me the ability to create a “booth” that could be as large as the room, or smaller of any size or rectangular shape and any place in the room. Eventually I just settled on them just off the walls. Surprisingly, the weight wasn’t much of a factor but there would be a hair of sag. So just took a roughly 7’ board and used it to support the boards in the middle which were covered by the panels. No nailing or anything just the weight would hold them in place.
Curtains along the walls can do a great job too. Try it in the corners also.
I try to give a donation (dont have a credit card) and I see you have Paypal. People need to understand that this kind of good advice comes with a price = the one that teaches and passes on knowledge spent his years for that. And you save a lot of money and time. To have acoustic treatment here costs (much) money and now I can try to do it myself. Thank you sir.
I just nailed a bunch of mattresses to my walls and ceilings. Sounds great now!
Ha! Love it!
Little extreme... I like it..😬
Great video, very informative. Just one question, at the reflection points do you put a diffuser or absorption panel?
Hi Ron, Thanks for taking the time to take this video! I'll definitely use it as a reference in the future! I have my own channel, but focusing on car audio, which has it's own challenges, if not not even more complex, than home audio. It's great to see your down to earth way of explaining things, similar to what i do kicking people to understand the importance of speaker locations, installation and tuning in a car.
I'm just starting my home audio project too (as we have so much time now unfortunately) and planning to build my own 3way OB dipole speakers, so again it's nice to see that you have a sweet spot for those type of speakers. ;)
Quick question though: is it still rare that people run their speakers fully active indoors?
Thanks for the compliments I appreciate it. In regards to active speakers in house I really can’t comment on it as I’m certainly not an expert with anything active related!
Thanks for pointing light into this much anticipated topic Ron. Long awaited.
I wish I could put a diffuser between my speakers but I have a TV there due to space limitations. I just throw a blanket on the TV when I listen. I wonder if diffusers would make a difference behind the speakers?
Really, there is only one way to find out!
Well, buying ”scientifically” calculated real wood diffusors for 1k USD (which is the kind of normal for four relatively small ones) just to find out if it helps, makes me wonder. This is the reason I haven´t pulled the trigger, and probably won´t, ever. I´m kind of leaning towards the home hack you disregared Ron. Cannot believe that a none scientifically calculated diffusor could do any harm, maybe not as effective though. What could happen, not spreading all the frequencies evenly? Not spreading them in a coherent direction? Makes me wonder... 🤔
Owens Corning fiberglass is super hard to get in Canada....Roxul/Rockwool compressed fiber board can be bought at Rona/Home depot for $60 (6 sheets @ 2'x4' )
Thanks Ron for another great video. My hifi is far from ideal setup. Due to kids playing around with my hifi, I’ve had to move my system to the bedroom. I have a Magnepan LRS speakers on each side of my bed, the speakers are about 3 1/2 foot from the wall and about 7 1/2 foot apart. The LRS are toeing in. At the foot end of my bed I have a Kallax shelf from Ikea with my system on it.
I’d like to put up some panels but have no idea where to start. If my speakers are toeing in, do I still use the mirror to find the 1st and 2nd reflection point?
I think defusers Behind the LRS and possibly cover the Kallax shelf may be a good start as I do have thick carpet in the room already.
Thanks again
My understanding is the more toed in, the less the reflections negatively impact sound.
Maybe it’s a good next content if you could explain this in comparison with digital sound processors room correction? If the traditional room correction necessary with DSP? Or is DSP just gimmicky.
I really would like to know more.
Rizal Ahmad DSP can’t correct room modes. It helps. But a DSP will work really well after the room is treated. Even if as simple as treating the first reflection points at your ear level in your seating position.
Good question (complex issue);
DSP and treatment attack different problems.
Examining acoustic treatments, vis-à-vis DSP, either approach can significantly improve the performance of the room response. Ideally both treatment and DSP are utilized for dramatically improvement.
DSP
1.) Room modes/resonances create big peaks that must be tamed via EQ, otherwise they'll dominate the spectral balance.
Treatments (bass traps)
2.) Excessive LF decay rates.
Acoustic treatments can be used to address specific issues. The most impactful is low frequency damping, ... ie., bass traps.
Uniform decay top to bottom is the goal, and an untreated room exhibits excessive LF energy relative to mid and hi freqs. Bass trapping is the answer and the result is clarity, ie., tight, tuneful bass that's clearly delineated.
Bass transients are revealed because the excessive bass energy from the previous note is damped, thus dissipates adequately to allow the current transient detail to be fully resolved.
3.) Wall reflection points;
Only after the big LF peaks are EQ'd down, and adequate LF damping is employed, then the SPECULAR region is addressed with diffusion and absorption.
("Waves" of pressure down low, transitions to "rays" of energy up high. Due to the physics of wavelength size and how the energy interacts in our rooms, the room sound behaves differently above and below the room's TRANSITION frequency.
Modal range below transition, and the Specular range above. Transition frequency is a function of room size, in most rooms is somewhere between 200hz and 400hz, it varies.)
Wow!! Now I have more understanding over DSP. Thanks for providing much needed knowledge.
1/4 of the wavelength of the frequency you want to absorb. If you wanted to absorb 40Hz you would place rockwool 2.15M away from the wall or a rockwool panel 2.15M thick right up against the wall. This takes up a hell of a lot of room so a realistic absorption bandwidth is 100Hz to 20,000Hz where you would only need to keep your absorption 86cm away from the wall
I am setting up my first system in another country (I live in 2 nations) and these houses are the WORST (for acoustics)! Everywhere its 'concrete and TILES'. I told my wife "I need to fix the acoustics but I need to know how?" That was 2 days ago and now I suddenly see this video and you ANSWER my questions! Isnt that wonderfull!
Where can I find that awesome looking crystal-ish acoustic panel?
As a CI dealer you are 100% correct, the room is the biggest speaker 🔈. Cheap gear in a treated room will outperform expensive gear in a crap room every time. Your 4th point and mirror 🪞 for 1st order reflections… Pure gold. New to your channel, and LS50 Meta recommendation. Pit in my order with Kef, can’t wait. Thanks so much Ron 🙏🏻
Enjoy your new Kef LS50 Meta's 🔊🎶🎬
Stillpoints makes a stand that can hold panels and you pick the distance - sturdy and stout
I had to look at the date on this video befor deciding to post.
I made my own pannels ,later on I made spacers out of wood. I screwed the 4 pieces of wood at each corner on the back of the panel to make a seperator between the wall and the pannel. So it was like free. The 4 small pieces were like 2``x2`` in size.
Ron - great video. Please allow me to share some of my personal acoustic thoughts from years of experimentation ....
Measurements first: You can't manage what you can't measure plays a role here. At the very least measure frequency response (ideally a flat response is better) and reverb time (to avoid over dampening the room with things that absorb too much sound). I use Dayton Audio OmniMic which allows me to see the troubling frequencies so speaker placement and acoustic treatment placement experimentation can begin and note its affect. Often solving one problem frequency creates a new problem so it'll take patience to try and optimize speaker and acoustical treatment placement.
Treatment strategy: for most domestic sized rooms absorption of low frequencies and reflection and or diffusion of mid to high frequencies works well. This avoids over dampening. The transition frequency range for most home rooms where sound waves transition to "beams" due to smaller wavelengths is about 300-500Hz so you'll need bass traps to work below this range and diffusion to work above it.
Thickness matters: Too often manufacturers sell absorbers and diffusers that are too thin. And the reason you want them thick (at least 6") is so they don't act like a low-pass filter and only operate on some of the frequencies hitting it. You want the absorber or diffuser to work as broadband as possible so as not to skew the frequency range of its reflections and reflections of those reflections. For a diffuser, the depth of its slots or wells (for a QRD or Skyline type) determines its lowest frequency, so for example a 6.75" depth will work down to 500Hz as it is one-quarter of a 500Hz wavelength.
Sitting distance from treatments: Normally you can sit much closer to an absorber than a diffuser which needs more space for the scattering to occur so the sound coalesces by the time you hear it. If you need to be close to a diffuser - say on the ceiling or side walls which are near your listening position - then choose a 2-dimensional one (diffuses both horizontally and vertically) so that only about half of the reflections are coming your way.
Of course the rug will help. The floor can also be a first reflection point.
Probably the best video about acoustic, you have covered gems points... Nailed it. 😊😊😊
But I really like front designs on panels which adds to aesthetic value instead of simple absorber.. I have a Hall as big as yours... Do you have a picture of your setup.? Actually I am thinking of making rockwool panels but with mdf board in front to add designs.. But you said it will not absorb as much as without wooden board in front. But I believe I can make some panels just for aesthetic and some.. Only with clothe wrapped in wooden frame with rockwool
Have you ever tried putting diffusion material on the sides of your speakers? I mean, that is possibly a first reflection point.
Quadratic diffusion, adsorption and proper speaker placement are all important tools for great sounding room’s. Having a big enough room to work with is also critical in the process.
Fellow Arizonan feeling my pain. Just bought a house and replacing the tile and I would not budge on my demands that the living room/theater had carpet. NO TILE!
I do want to note however that you stated absorption is best for bass, this is the exact opposite of true. Absorption is most effective for wavelengths where the material is thicker than 1/4 wavelength of the sound. It still does absorb some sound above that limit but it drops dramatically. So for a 4" thick panel placed on wall, it will absorb 100% of sound at 1000Hz and higher, and below that it drops dramatically, around 12dB per octave. So they reduce echo and such very effectively, but most echo is high frequency effects anyways since lower frequencies don't behave like rays. On that note, that is why placing them away from the wall is so effective, you absorb longer wavelengths with thinner panels.
GAH! I knew you were going to say rug for option #4. Tile is the bane of Arizona. Vinyl plant flooring the bane of the upper midwest (dragging in wet salty slush/snow in the winter). Thankfully I watched this before I ran out and bought a bunch of wall panels/foam. I'm setting up my new listening room in our newly finished basement, and the listening section is bit of an echo chamber. I knew it was going to happen as soon as the drywall went up, and the vinyl plank floor was thrown down. It's wickedly clappy down there. And I've been agonizing over a big 9x12' area rug. ...never thought a rug/carpet pad would add more acoustic absorption to just the carpet. Can't wait to hear what the room sounds like once the rug gets delivered and thrown down.
So...I'm waiting on the ceiling treatment.
Luckily, from what I've read, the Revel M16 speaker's wave guides were made for the first reflection point. So no sidewall treatment is recommended. ...we'll see.
I've read that something as simple as a bookshelf loaded up with books can provide sufficient enough diffusion in a low-budget home studio. It's obviously not so scientific. But it's better than nothing if the budget is constrained. Thanks for the vid!
I’d agree that will be better than nothing!
Better than nothing but I saw an older bloke test this with an acoustic guitar and mic.
He then used an actual diffuser, night and day difference
Thanks Ron.
How about:
Rug first, then furnishings and window treatments, then first reflection points?
Apparently first reflection points greater than 6 ft from the listening position are not as significant a problem...?
I think you have a good plan! That order makes sense to me.
@@Newrecordday2013
I forgot the bass traps and REL subs.
Been there.
It's done ;-)
Great video!. To get the distance off the wall....simple... French cleat.
At the begining of the video I was 90% sure that the 4th advice will be a rug. Great videos!
P. S. you can go a little more technical on some arguments. Marketing is a powerfull weapon, that doesn't always shares the truth about a specific audio gear.
Ron, what company is the grey diffuser panel (you show it a few times in the video)? I didn’t see any links for it…
No longer available. They were on Amazon.
Are the Vicoustics treatments a reputable source? I had bought from
GIK before years ago but they have gone to a pay to build service and it’s
Anywhere from
4-6 weeks they tell me
Even if I had the perfect room, amp, pre amp etc.. I’d still continue to buy and test speakers. Thats what it’s all about. I want to hear and experience new things. Keep the ears learning. I love it! Thanks bud!
When I moved into my place, it already came with significant "room treatment." 🙊 Pretty awesome huh!!! 😉
@Regular Guy Audio I was referring to the carpet. 😂
The easiest way to get the panel materials off of the wall is a D.I.Y. box. You can get cheap wood at any hardware shop either add too the existing box or make new panel surround. I made my own with the thickest Roxul and a DIY box I then added a nice fabric to the front. Just make sure the roxul stays to the front of whatever box at least 2 inches.
Great suggestion!
Hi Ron, I got echo in my room too. It's the wife repeating her complaints over the looks of the rug, the sound confusers and the dorky insulation panels. Your solutions are effective for hardcore audiophiles only, guys who are single for all eternity. My wife unit is putting up fierce resistance. What do I do? No, can't trade the wife for another one. But I do need good sounding stereo. Thnx for advice!
Room furnishings! Let her pick whatever it is, just make sure it’s soft! Anything to absorb sound...
You can custom make frames that you can stick that rock wool behind and the front can be a print. There are company’s that will make prints out of cotton at almost any size. Stretch, staple, hang
@@Tearial311 Thanks for the good idea, I'll look into it! I'm also considering glueing dampening material underneath the tabletop and behind the furniture. The echo in our living room is so bad you cannot normally hear eachother speak. Peoples' natural reaction is to speak louder, which makes things even worse of course. Music does not stand a chance. It's acoustic mayhem. The consequence of minimalist design.
Believe it or not, there are $15.99 pin-cushion panels from IKEA that are about 20 x 20 x 1 1/2 that work just as good for sound absorption as $350+ "acoustic" panels. When your speakers activate, the sound they produce has bounced off the walls hundreds of times before your ear picks up the sound and registers it to your brain. I agree that 100% absorption creates a dead room, so by all means mix it up. Similar to what BOSE did with the 901s, you want to scatter the frequencies so the same ones don't meet up and cancel each other out.
Really, in my experience, the entire idea is to be able to listen to your music as pure as it was when it was recorded and not to introduce any other sounds or subtract any sounds. One good way to test is to listen to your favorite song on your headphones (if you have them) and then see if your open sound system reflects those same properties. Then treat the room to match those acoustics. No, it isn't perfect science, but it's a far better place to start than nothing.
Does it make a difference if the rug reaches under the couch like a rug that covers the whole floor or just from the speakers to the seating Position?
Great question! I would imagine having the rug in front of the speaker will be most critical but remember, the more, the better! Get a big rug if you can!
@@Newrecordday2013 I will probaply borrow a rug from someone to test it first if under the couch makes a difference but I doubt it because i hhave a very soft floor.
It's true. You are hearing the changes in the air pressure waves in the room as pressurized by the speakers, as driven by the electronics. Great sound starts and ends with the room. Even otherwise mediocre speakers and electronics can sound great in a properly adjusted room. And a bean bag chair is also a great bass trap btw.
Good video! I am using Magnepan speakers placed 4.5 ft from the front wall. I can't do much as far as putting things up on the walls but was wondering if putting a 5 ft. plant behind the speakers would help difuse some of the sound coming off the front wall?
Office partitions that are free standing, a roll of carpet for bass traps, a rug on the floor. Diffusor on the back. My walls are 20 feet high anyway.
I am a music enthousiast. Electronics and speakers are already a case of tolerance in the living room. We have a dog. A rug is not compatible with a dog for various reasons. Absorbers, diffusers, my wife likes art, a piece of rock wool hidden behind cloth and maybe a pattern cut piece of plywood is not exactly our taste of art. Then the waste of space those absorbers cause. We love windows, daylight is so important and the ability to look outside provides a sense of living in a society.
Our diffusers are the bookshelf’s and photo and art frames on the wall. Our absorbers are the sofa and lounge chairs for the family and visitors. Also the inbetween transparent curtains in front of the large windows.
Other than that sound quality has to come from speaker positioning (limited options), speakers, electronics and cables and above all recording and mastering quality. We enjoy the music even though we have not turned our living space into a studio.
If I don’t have enough room depth to pull my fronts X feet from the front wall, should I use diffusers on the front wall behind the speakers or absorption?
Hi all, ive just come across this on my feed and subscribed,loved rons views and honest opinions on the lower end hifi,im just getting into this audiophile “thing”. At the moment ive just got a technics mini system running on a pair of eltax liberty 3+ speakers,the system is neither here nor there at this moment in time but i really do like the eltax speakers,the bass and mids on these are fantastic,for my ears anyway,and im hoping to start building around these speakers,and hearing from others saying if it sounds good for you then its right for you, so here we go,i need to know about amps and do i need pre amps,are there limits on length of speaker cable pending on the power output on the amplifier,saying that about my speakers,does musical tastes alter what speakers you have running on your system,im 55yrs old,i do manual work and have have a family haha so yeah money’s tight,so everythings on a budget,i like everything from obscure 50’s rockabilly to Tool to gordon lightfoot, yes quite a mixed bag but any information,details i need to look out for,anything to do with audiophilia,as ive found this channel now im hooked,i couldnt believe the range of equipment,old and state of the art thats out there,seeing some of these peoples systems had me engaged like ive never been before, so please any info or tips i would be truly grateful, thank you for your time reading this,god bless.
Where'd you get the long gray diffuser with the falling blocks in it? I couldn't find it in any of your posted links. Is it designed mathematically?
Great video Ron! You nailed it this time. 👍