The old Playstation Controller Chair was a fun thing that was awesome for AC2/AA/AC3 era and far cheaper than the Steel Battalion one which didn't work that well for Armored Core.
You’d be better served by a HOTAS or HOSAS set of sticks on the coming PC version, if it allows that level of mapping. That said, there was a guy that has made an unsigned driver for Windows for the Steel Battalion controller, but you have to cut apart your controller’s wire and solder a USB plug to it.
there's a japanese woman who plays Soul Caliber at a fairly high level using this grip, however she developed the style only because she learned primarily through trial and error upon introduction to a controller.
I'm pretty sure the only reason that it could work is due to you being able to rebind every function on the controller, if people think that it just works off the back then they thought wrong.
yeah, can do that on the ps4 at the system level. Then it becomes viable. It definitely wasn't before then unless you started this way or put in absurd amounts of time using it for minimal advantages
@@Kezzic That seems like a bit of a strong reaction to someone who probably just misremembered a phrase they rarely heard themselves, or something, maybe even a mere typo. jesus
back in the late 90s, my friend and I were complaining about the new PSX dual shock. We both felt like controllers would need to move past this flaw of the right thumb use for so many important actions on top of the right joystick Jokes on us, console core controllers literally havent changed, like at all... IN 25 YEARS. Anyways, I remember him joking that it would work better if you held the pad backwards. I honestly can see people taking that idea to heart, because he did, even after joking about it. He got good too. He was always great at games, but I felt like he was just showing off and acting like it wasnt a show-off move, but the most efficient way to use the controller. He was a character lol
You're right tho lol. On a controller it's impossible to move the right stick (usually the camera) and press a button (jump, reload, and crouch usually) at the same time. This is a pretty major setback of current controllers and its actually not a limitation that keyboard and mouse shares. There is definitely room for controller innovation but gamers hate change so we probably won't see any for a while.
Just to leave a note on the Monster Hunter claw grip: it was very much a PSP thing that (mostly) died with the 3DS. The reason the circle pad pro even exists is that it wasn't very feasible to claw grip on the 3DS, so capcom had nintendo create a solution for MH3G.
@@kelnhide The Circle Pad Pro was released at the same time as MH3G, in 2011 (and was actually revealed at the same time as MH3G, too), but Kid Icarus only came out in 2012. The reason I remember it so clearly is because of all the people in the community railing on the 3DS because "you can't even use claw grip on it, so now you have to buy an attachment just for this game".
@@justthere845 @justthere845 The target cam was a huge qol update, but it doesn't replace having the option for a quick tap on the dpad with the index finger to look at a specific body part, a teammate, when there is more than 1 monster in the area, etc.. In fact, there was a Circle Pad Pro made for MH4G that had the stick where the L button should be - specifically so you could use the claw on the 3DS.
the one made by hori that put the camera controls on your left index finger is objectively superior as camera controls are accessible during other animations without moving your thumb from the face buttons to the right pad/nub. though that is admittedly a very minor advantage, I personally do find the hori 3dsxl grip more comfortable than ANY other 3ds grip on the market
If anyone wants a good remapping scheme (for armored core 3) similar to modern dual stick shooter games you can map the right stick to the button pad (triangle, X, square, circle) using something like Ds4windows and then remap some of the buttons in the game itself. Basically after setting up the sticks in ds4windows you map the button pad in-game for looking up (triangle) and down (x) and looking left (square) and right(circle). Then have the left stick/directional pad as move forward and backwards and strafe left and right. Then put your left and right shoulder buttons however you want them. For me I do firing weapons(R2), firing left-hand weapon(L2), switching weapons(L1), and boost(R1). It works REALLY good if you are interested in trying the games but the regular controls seem hard to master. Gives you much more control over your mech and feels fairly natural after years of dual stick fps games!
Reminds me of the Battletech game on the Genesis. One player moves, the other player shoots, so I had an idea that the best way to play on your own was to tape two pads together, back to back, so you can with with your thumbs, aim and shoot with your fingers.
I really love it when games actually consider your hands. Halo had a Bumper Jumper control scheme, which let you jump, shoot, throw grenades, melee, aim and move all without having to move your hands off any of those buttons. Even without index and middle finger simultaneously used for bumpers/triggers respectively, jumping/nades were competing on the left, melee and shooting on the right, no big deal at all as none of those need to be THAT fluid. Having to stop aiming to jump, though? I guess they were going for the familiarity with A = Jump, but it's a terrible standard for so many games. I also wish all games let us pick our controls already btw., cramping your hands awkwardly isn't my idea of skill expression.
@@UselessRecords more than likely you can/could flick your thumb from RS to a face button faster than the action’s animation could play on the return. For most players the control scheme is fine, even with the small input delay.
I'm glad someone finally addressed this, been a long time fan of Armored Core and until recently I never heard of the backwards grip. So I thought it must have been a PVP thing that people used, glad to see a video explaining you can play it normally and still get through the games. Great video!
There is an actual AC grip y'know. It's a lot less exciting and I learned it from AC4. Thumbs on the sticks, indexes the bumpers, and middles on the triggers. Nothing that fancy but feels a lot better than claw. Preset B or what ever it's called in the settings.
I've been playing AC since AC1 waaaaay back. And I can confirm, the controls for those early games were fucking brutal. I never did think of flipping the controller around though. I mainly just used my thumb at different angle to press multiple buttons at the same time when I needed to.
I feel like reversing the D-Pad would be brutal in learning curve over using the index/middle fingers simultaneously. But then again I was 8 years old and didn’t know any better.
Same. It developed naturally out of necessity, it wasn't some sort of internet meme inspiration. It's sort of annoying, but you gotta do what you gotta do.
With AC6 coming to PC i think it's pretty set in stone that even the claw grip is gonna be obsolete soon, i can see this being the type of game where MnK become the standard more so than others
I remember playing the first AC and was running into problems where the standard grip was not allowing me to press as many buttons as I needed. One of my solutions was the reverse grip. It didn't work very well.
It's a grip that's still used by some high level players for many different games. It's just not seen in the West at all. It's more common in areas like Japan. Maybe not "popular" but it's far from obsolete
1. What a good and informative video thanks 2. I thought the Grip was mostly popular because of AC5 being you know.... AC5 and JP fanbase really like AC5 unlike the West until well, it didnt age well 3. IS THAT WHITE GLINT IN PSO2???
JP loves 5th Gen so much, they kept the franchise alive in Japan & basically cornered From to include 5th Gen mechanics (Scan Mode, Main Hangar weapons) into ACVI.
to spell out how bad early controls were. d pad was forward backward and turn, strafe was L1/R1, and up/down was the shoulder buttons. the face buttons were for boosting, shootings, etc. so circle strafing right, the most basic skill for effective fighting, was left, r1, and managing your boosters with X all at the same time.
Reverse controller is very situational, very very few ever used this. The Claw Grip on the other hand was all but required to play the first one in PVP with any sort of effectiveness.
The extra buttons are really the best way to go. On my old Razer controller I used to bind one to "B" when playing _Dark Souls,_ so that I could run or roll and turn my camera simultaneously without claw-gripping. The reverse grip just sounds silly.
Thanks again for watching! I wanted to try something new and add some recorded video parts with myself in the videos to add more personability into the videos. I may try to expand on it more in the future, but I def know why I'm a writing journalist and not video personality careerwise after this first try lol
Yeah dude, that worked out great. Definitely keep doing this. Video was well edited and I liked that this wasn't just a "OMG YOU HAVE TO SEE HOW PEOPLE HOLD THE CONTROLLER FOR THIS GAME??????!!??" and instead you educated people. well done. One suggestion on the parts where you filmed yourself, do a couple more takes. Make sure the words come out like the rest of the video and you're confident like you are in the rest. Keep the tone the same. I know full well how hard that is, but a few more takes and you'll nail it. Good job and keep doing this man!
This was actually solid, especially after looking at your most recent video prior to this. The only thing lacking is high quality equipment (i.e. I can hear the room) and you're just a little too laid back with your speaking. Honestly, a really good mic could actually rectify both and turn your soft, smooth speech into an identifying part of the channel. I'm only saying all of this because this video is promising. I've seen successful channels with worse writing and production quality.
@@Gehrich_ Thank you! Yeah I’ve tried to step up audio by buying a shure sm57 and an audio interface but I’m clueless there with editing, setup, and whether it was worth it lol 😅 I just have no direction but I’m hoping to step it up in the future somehow
@@UselessRecords Your editing in this vid is spot on. Your mic should be fine, so I'm guessing you just need some dampening panels in the immediate area to reduce the sound of your voice bouncing off of the walls. That won't be worth the investment until the channel can pay for its own upgrades. For context, I've seen more than a few channels with 5k-20k subs that obviously use dollar store headsets. You've honestly gone above and beyond for where you're sitting, atm. Good luck finding content to create.
@@Lazypackmule i hold claw grip 100% of the time i'm using a controller, i find use for it in literally every pad game i play (pressing 2 face buttons simultaneously, camera movement+jumping etc). I don't think it's awful for your hands unless you're already death gripping the controller, very comfortable personally!
Ive been saying this for a while. A controller needs to be designed that has the joysticks on the front, but all of the other buttons on the backside so that we are able to use all of our fingers at once.
As far as I remember The myth started in 2chan (now 5 chan Japanese version of 4chan) talking about his friend or himself using controller wired. Then he said he use this grip to play ACV thus the born of AC grip. And I believe someone use AC grip to play fighting games. I definitely believe some people did use it everyone has some different habits on controll like reverse camera. But it do become so kind of meme about the complicated control of AC series Even some manga has character use this grip to play on he or she is a ture otaku. Absolutely not some recent Magna AC haven't got a new game nearly a decade. I am so happy it get a new game.
I definitely recall the appearance of the reverse grip being back in ACV. The reason, if memory serves me right, is because in ACV the game mechanics required the player to now constantly shift between scanning with the camera controls in order to also recover EN and shifting to combat mode while using the face buttons to control all your armaments. Couple this with separated controls for Boost, Jumping, Recon and other stuff, it makes for a painful experience with a truncated claw grip for intense and long gameplay sessions. It requires rebinding stuff to do effectively which all AC games have free binding customizations, but it is not a "standard" to play AC. Rather, it was just a surprising thing somebody on the internet did which worked out for them, but it looked weird so other people saw it as interesting. It was also usable for ACV because ACV was mostly lateral-style gameplay as opposed to vertical. Also, some of the purpose of this control scheme has been alleviated with the appearance of controller back buttons so I'd say just use whatever works for you. You no longer have to claw your finger to press face buttons, and instead just close them naturally to press the back buttons, which obviously this "reverse grip" was aiming for in the first place. At the end of the day, Armored Core's standard control scheme isn't any different from most 3rd-person shooters nowadays. With the inclusion of Gyro in controllers, it's now probably even more easier to play with a standard grip. Interestingly enough though, some people have actually mentioned preferring to use the PS1-era style of configuration even on the more modern AC games, with the movement on the D-pad, and the misc commands on the L-stick, with the Look Up and Look Down commands bound to the trigger buttons. To each his own, I guess.
I always played claw just naturally. My hands were really small, so it was the most comfortable way to hit face buttons. Crazy to think that it gave me an edge all these years.
Dude, when you brought up claw grip it triggered an IRL flashback. I went hard on silent line way back in the day, and once you get a couple hundred hours in, the claw grip just comes on naturally. It elevates the fluidity of control massively.
I've been playing AC since the original first came out i got used to the controls so much most of the mecha games i play I use the same setup so it never bothered me and I never heard of flipping the controller until I saw this video
There's a fella by the name of Upside Down Gaming who was raised playing on an N64 controller backwards because his hands were too small, now he's wiping whole squads on CoD Warzone all from muscle memory. He should give AC a shot
Fucking thank you!! I’ve been telling people that this isn’t necessary and that it’s a joke. And you brought up hood examples as to people playing games in other outrages ways. It’s possible but it’s absolutely not necessary. This topic was really hard to prove myself right with.
Reeeeal classy playing RR4 intro at the end of the video. My few fav racer games at the ps1 era. Wish that made a reboot.. 🥺 Anyways, good vid. Me an my bro would throw down who's mech was the better cheater back in the day lol
well, now AC 6 is coming to PC, it's going to have native mouse and keyboard support unlike every other entry in the series, i hope its done right bc ive always wanted to play AC with a mouse and keyboard
First time hearing about the AC grip and it's actually so insane I might just try this. Been playing AC since I was a kid so this is really new to me and I'm always up for something new lmao hoping to see more content with the AC grip and AC6
With the launch of AC6, I also wanted to give a shoutout to many Armored Core content creators, because they deserve a lot of love for their efforts after all the years and specially since this franchise will get more popular (of course this includes Iron Pinneapple, Oroboro, Zentreya, Fightincowboy, Rurikhan, and many others): - The Lore Hunter - 0seraphic - BlueberryPoot - Silver Glint - AesirAesthetics - Armoredcorelore - Love_Arc - BlueberrPoot - Anatolia's Mercenary - MrHappy1227 (though he is more focused on Final Fantasy) - Rubicon Dogs - Zealous (Znote) - Cleric - FromCheng - Writing on Games - Above Average Gaming} - Alanah Pearce
The first games were only hard to control because the analog sticks didn't exist yet. Once the Dualshock controller came out and games supported it controls for all games got much easier usually assigning them to movement and view/aiming controls.
That was a really superb video. Clever edits, timely asides, and direction that keeps everything cohesive and moving forward; just excellent work all the way around.
Im sure your 95% right but lets not forget Smarter Everydays video on the Backwards Bike. Had we learned to play backwards from the very 1st time we ever played games with controllers, than out brain wound send any competing signal, it would be natural and playing our way now would be the hard part. Relearning something as complex as controller input but complete mirrored is litterally Naruto Jonin levels of Kinesthetic Talent. I recommend the Smarter Everyday video is yall haven't seen it
I always thought the traditional armored core controls made a lot of sense. You could move and look while doing some kind of action all without analog sticks (keep in mind the first game came out before the dualshock with analogs became the norm)
claw grip with the left hand was really popular on ps2 socom games because zooming in with a sniper was up on the dpad, and claw with right hand is benefitial for a lot of games, mostly tony hawk games come to mind atm. Will agree it can be annoying even after learning it and being comfortable with it.
My friend let me borrow Armored Core 4 back in high school. I literally wasted a whole summer and much of my first semester back in school just playing it. It was the first time I played something like it after being thoroughly hooked on Gundam from Toonami as a kid. Good times. I’ve never heard of the armored core grip till now cool vid.
I dig the use of the famous Gundam: Reconguista in G meme. Also, Armored Core VI is set to basically carve out a new niche, as a LOT of people are surprisingly hyped for the title.
The issue of needing to use the face buttons and the stick as well as the triggers is a real problem in games. A simple example that comes to mind is in COD to go prone while still aiming is an issue. You gotta take your finger of the stick to hit the face button, but in a lot of cases you want to aim at a target as you're going prone. On pc you just hit shift with your left hand and can aim and go prone no problem. I find myself making a C with my thumb and index finger and using my index finger to hit the face button while having my thumber under the stick instead of on top of to be able to do both in a lot of games. Like in Elden Ring it's important to use the camera stick in a lot of situations when lock on will completely leave you not knowing what's going on, but then you also must people able to heal or dodge roll.
wait til you see Goldeneye 64 Alien Finger grip ahahaha also love claw personally, my fingers always stay there and i don't get discomfort (depends on the persons hands really) even with intense sessions, it's so useful for so many games
Over the years, I've met at least 3 people at cons and gaming events that were proficiently using this grip style. Some key details with all those guys are that they were all playing the ps1 titles and they all admitted it took them months to even get decent. I wouldn't say they were significantly better than people using a normal grip style but they were at least as good.
I had a friend back in my early teens that was probably about 6 or 7 years older than me, and he used the armored core grip for literally every game we played together. He was pretty good but I remember asking him why he did it and the reasons he gave just seemed to boil down to "because I want to be different". He was a weird dude lol.
I've never heard of this, but I just brought my old Armored Core games out of storage yesterday and was thinking that I needed a better way to access the front buttons because I do not have the controls down anymore
I could imagine rhythm game players doing something like this, but on the other hand if they were _that_ committed, they'd buy or rig a dedicated custom controller.
I played a bunch of them when they were new and never saw this meme until recently. My rebinding of choice for AC2 (pre dualshock) was to put movement on dpad, camera on face buttons, and shoot/swap weapons/boost on shoulder buttons. Very similar to what AC4 offered as one of its options later on.
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I clicked this video for what I think is a different reason to most: I actually, unironically think the modern controller would be better if it were more like the "AC grip". It's unfathomably stupid that our poor thumbs have to work themselves to death handling 90% of the inputs on a controller, while the rest of the hand goes almost unused. I posit that the face buttons & D-pad should sit on the back of the controller, and the thumbs should only handle the analogue sticks and Start, Select, etc. There are some interesting problems to solve before such a design can work, but I genuinely believe it would feel better for almost everyone. I have some other DIY controller projects in the pipeline, but I'm starting to think I should try and design this concept myself.
It's a pretty good analog to natural evolution. The current standard didn't come from nowhere, it was built on its predecessors. I would think of most of modern dual-sticks stemming from the PS1 analog stick controller, which then goes back to Snes controllers. Basically, the design relying on thumbs was baked into the design standard when there wasn't too many inputs buttons for our thumbs to handle with high fidelity (with the exception of few games like fighting games). "The design is very human" memes aside, while the dualshock controller design meant a human hand couldn't efficiently use all of the input options, it's also the case that few games really demanded a degree of input that wasn't manageable so even while the current design was becoming flawed it would still perform well enough across the board that any really fundamental changes to address the issue would be less desirable as it competes against familiarity and muscle memory for a pretty niche advantage. The earliest I can think of the overreliance on thumbs having mainstream drawbacks is in the FPS craze of the PS3 and 360 days where it was common to rebind controls because a standard grip meant you couldn't look with right stick and press face buttons to crouch or prone at the same time. We are now seeing buttons added to the backs of controllers but something to consider is that that space and those fingers are not "free". On some of those controllers many people have had to disable some back buttons because a comfortable grip on the controller means accidental presses happen and we see which layouts don't stay around as a result. The last thing I would mention if you are going to try design a controller with reverse face inputs is to keep in mind that your thumb and index are your only very independent digits. Your other fingers are mechanically coupled so even if they arent gripping theyre still limmited in complex input sequences or combinationcan. You can train 3,4&5 to be more independent but you want to avoid controller designs that allow higher fidelity control inputs that come at the cost of hand strains or deterioration (see this videos take on Claw Gripping)
I've long been considering a more "ergonomic" controller design, where there's more action in the shoulder area since relying so much on your thumbs require letting go of the sticks. I just feel the shoulder area is so under-utilized in the standard dualshock format--nevermind how terrible the grips feel when you have big hands. Getting back into FF14 made the problems more apparent.
I’ve been playing the series since the original eat the ever living tar out of each game multiple times and I never heard of this controller “technique” until two weeks ago lmao
The only "odd" grip I used in 4 and 4A was a crab grip with fingers on bumpers and thumb for movement and buttons. Being able to quickly tap into the shoulder mounted weapons while moving at such a fast pace was a big advantage.
I started with AC2 back in the day, and unironically you get used to the D-pad movement controls once you stop fighting with them. My only real qualm with classic AC games is the lack of easy Z-axis movement; don’t need no claw grip to get by.
Why do people always say the claw grip is terrible for your hands? Lol Been using it for years and the hands never get tired. Right middle finger for the shoulders, side of the right index finger for the face buttons, and thumb for the joystick. Not too far off the ergonomics of a regular gamepad and then I can jump, aim, and shoot all at the same time.
I am just really interested in the new one. Didn't know about the series till I took a deeper dive. I really appreciate your lil history lesson . And editing, ez sub
Bruh, I’ve been playing AC since PSX. Would do LANs for local tourneys, exchanged mech build experiments and yes, dudes did do the AC grip. And failed tremendously. The only way I could pull some moves was dropping controller to the knee for a quick input. It’s so dope they dropping another AC. Get your playlists ready!!
The "hit it from the back" style of play looks crazy. But, I agree, there are so many viable options to play that you can benefit from without having to flip your whole controller around. Great video - subbed.
Love the video! Great history. But that goofy hand-hold was an absolute fact for original core games. I grew up watching my older brother and his nerd friends playing this way and never understood why. Back when like geocities was a thing and word spread "fast"
I have seen the backwards controller used in Kagerou Days manga. It's a very obscure detail that most people won't even notice, but it put a smile on my face.
Even if I wasn't an armored core veteran, I feel like this is the kind of thing you could figure out if you just sat down and thought about it. There's a reason that the Nexus control scheme survived mostly intact. The real 5head is dedicating your index to the shoulder button and middle fingers to the triggers. I don't understand how that didn't become normal by 2010.
back in the day at gamestop my friend scored a touchdown on me in madden with a guitar hero controller at one of the xbox 360 store displays while i was using a regular controller .
If I could have added some pedals to replace buttons in the old PS1 AC days, I woulda. The hop strife became THE tactic because it allowed you to have the time to adjust vision, shoot, and move rapidly.
Never new about this, funny shit, great vid. Yeah, I've used the claw myself, but it's definitely a one off type of deal for some games, I usually end up re mapping, or you just end up getting used to the scheme. Can't wait for the new AC, not sure it was last Raven or V, but it was one of the Xbox 360 ones for sure, I never finished it, got stuck on the last mission, got frustrated, said "Fuck it!" And let it go. Thank God for ADHD meds, it's even helping me out with my gaming! 😂
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Real gamers play with a $900 used Steel Battalion mech controller.
I have one from back in the day... I might try it, fr
My buddy back in the day always had one of those taking up like a full four feet of desk space in his room 😅
The old Playstation Controller Chair was a fun thing that was awesome for AC2/AA/AC3 era and far cheaper than the Steel Battalion one which didn't work that well for Armored Core.
You’d be better served by a HOTAS or HOSAS set of sticks on the coming PC version, if it allows that level of mapping. That said, there was a guy that has made an unsigned driver for Windows for the Steel Battalion controller, but you have to cut apart your controller’s wire and solder a USB plug to it.
If I remember right the second steel battalion was also an army recruiter tie in. Which seems insane.
This all flowed super well. As someone who had no experience with armored core, this was a nice introduction to a niche aspect of a niche community
This dude is a bot
@@chefbutterrrr you dick eating. Relax
This is what happens in a world without mouse and keyboard...
there's a japanese woman who plays Soul Caliber at a fairly high level using this grip, however she developed the style only because she learned primarily through trial and error upon introduction to a controller.
Do you have a video I could watch?
@@jmarinotripp240 sorry pal. she was a young kid in the video I saw around a decade ago here on youtube.
I'm pretty sure the only reason that it could work is due to you being able to rebind every function on the controller, if people think that it just works off the back then they thought wrong.
yeah, can do that on the ps4 at the system level. Then it becomes viable. It definitely wasn't before then unless you started this way or put in absurd amounts of time using it for minimal advantages
Finally I see a case for inverted X-axis
works off the BAT. off the BAT. not off the back. jesus
@@Kezzic thank God someone said it
@@Kezzic That seems like a bit of a strong reaction to someone who probably just misremembered a phrase they rarely heard themselves, or something, maybe even a mere typo.
jesus
back in the late 90s, my friend and I were complaining about the new PSX dual shock. We both felt like controllers would need to move past this flaw of the right thumb use for so many important actions on top of the right joystick Jokes on us, console core controllers literally havent changed, like at all... IN 25 YEARS. Anyways, I remember him joking that it would work better if you held the pad backwards. I honestly can see people taking that idea to heart, because he did, even after joking about it. He got good too. He was always great at games, but I felt like he was just showing off and acting like it wasnt a show-off move, but the most efficient way to use the controller. He was a character lol
Was? Tell me this awesome dude is okay.
You're right tho lol. On a controller it's impossible to move the right stick (usually the camera) and press a button (jump, reload, and crouch usually) at the same time. This is a pretty major setback of current controllers and its actually not a limitation that keyboard and mouse shares. There is definitely room for controller innovation but gamers hate change so we probably won't see any for a while.
@@enumaelish9193 he probably got married and had kids, now he cant be that character anymore
@@schmecklin377 Just rebind jump to trigger though, been doing it for years
@@enumaelish9193 He was great last time I checked, living in NYC doing work as a software technician/engineer or something.
Just to leave a note on the Monster Hunter claw grip: it was very much a PSP thing that (mostly) died with the 3DS. The reason the circle pad pro even exists is that it wasn't very feasible to claw grip on the 3DS, so capcom had nintendo create a solution for MH3G.
I thought the Circle Pad pro was made for Kid Icarus Uprising
@@kelnhide The Circle Pad Pro was released at the same time as MH3G, in 2011 (and was actually revealed at the same time as MH3G, too), but Kid Icarus only came out in 2012.
The reason I remember it so clearly is because of all the people in the community railing on the 3DS because "you can't even use claw grip on it, so now you have to buy an attachment just for this game".
And the lock on feature made claw irrelevant.
@@justthere845 @justthere845 The target cam was a huge qol update, but it doesn't replace having the option for a quick tap on the dpad with the index finger to look at a specific body part, a teammate, when there is more than 1 monster in the area, etc.. In fact, there was a Circle Pad Pro made for MH4G that had the stick where the L button should be - specifically so you could use the claw on the 3DS.
the one made by hori that put the camera controls on your left index finger is objectively superior as camera controls are accessible during other animations without moving your thumb from the face buttons to the right pad/nub. though that is admittedly a very minor advantage, I personally do find the hori 3dsxl grip more comfortable than ANY other 3ds grip on the market
If anyone wants a good remapping scheme (for armored core 3) similar to modern dual stick shooter games you can map the right stick to the button pad (triangle, X, square, circle) using something like Ds4windows and then remap some of the buttons in the game itself.
Basically after setting up the sticks in ds4windows you map the button pad in-game for looking up (triangle) and down (x) and looking left (square) and right(circle).
Then have the left stick/directional pad as move forward and backwards and strafe left and right.
Then put your left and right shoulder buttons however you want them. For me I do firing weapons(R2), firing left-hand weapon(L2), switching weapons(L1), and boost(R1).
It works REALLY good if you are interested in trying the games but the regular controls seem hard to master. Gives you much more control over your mech and feels fairly natural after years of dual stick fps games!
yeah! i used to do this on console for AC2, makes much more sense than fiddling with the shoulders, forgetting which one is up and which one is down
Reminds me of the Battletech game on the Genesis. One player moves, the other player shoots, so I had an idea that the best way to play on your own was to tape two pads together, back to back, so you can with with your thumbs, aim and shoot with your fingers.
Did it work?
@@PixyEm I was never interested enough to try.
Combining two controllers is also the optimal way to play the NES port of Elite.
Combine 2 controllers over controller port 1 and 2 for a more modern way of playing GoldenEye on the N64. You're welcome.
I really love it when games actually consider your hands. Halo had a Bumper Jumper control scheme, which let you jump, shoot, throw grenades, melee, aim and move all without having to move your hands off any of those buttons. Even without index and middle finger simultaneously used for bumpers/triggers respectively, jumping/nades were competing on the left, melee and shooting on the right, no big deal at all as none of those need to be THAT fluid. Having to stop aiming to jump, though? I guess they were going for the familiarity with A = Jump, but it's a terrible standard for so many games. I also wish all games let us pick our controls already btw., cramping your hands awkwardly isn't my idea of skill expression.
Bumper jumper is legit one of the best control schemes of all time. I have no clue how I ever played Halo 3 pvp with B as my melee button as a kid lol
@@UselessRecords I was pretty dominant at Reach with the old Duke control scheme. Honestly anything else feels too alien for me with Halo.
@@UselessRecords more than likely you can/could flick your thumb from RS to a face button faster than the action’s animation could play on the return. For most players the control scheme is fine, even with the small input delay.
An AC vid with Ridge Racer Type-4 music? Sir are you my spirit animal?
I'm glad someone finally addressed this, been a long time fan of Armored Core and until recently I never heard of the backwards grip. So I thought it must have been a PVP thing that people used, glad to see a video explaining you can play it normally and still get through the games. Great video!
Some games literally used to have control schemes for the claw grip. Dude doesn't know what he's talking about
Nice Hylics pfp. I'm looking forward to diving into AC6!
There is an actual AC grip y'know. It's a lot less exciting and I learned it from AC4. Thumbs on the sticks, indexes the bumpers, and middles on the triggers. Nothing that fancy but feels a lot better than claw. Preset B or what ever it's called in the settings.
Damn, I had NO IDEA FromSoftware was behind this series but I definitely knew about the funky way of holding the controller for YEAAAARSSS.
coming from a Raven since 97 and have played them all you are absolutely right
I've been playing AC since AC1 waaaaay back. And I can confirm, the controls for those early games were fucking brutal. I never did think of flipping the controller around though. I mainly just used my thumb at different angle to press multiple buttons at the same time when I needed to.
Good to see some fellow animal crossing fans here
I feel like reversing the D-Pad would be brutal in learning curve over using the index/middle fingers simultaneously. But then again I was 8 years old and didn’t know any better.
I never had issues with it. I think it was second nature to me and actually learned it on the go the first time I played it back in the late 90s.
4:08 I actually use that claw grip in souls games to run while still having access to the camera, and running attacks
Same. It developed naturally out of necessity, it wasn't some sort of internet meme inspiration. It's sort of annoying, but you gotta do what you gotta do.
Same man lol
The classic Tetris meta plays with the controller upsidedown
With AC6 coming to PC i think it's pretty set in stone that even the claw grip is gonna be obsolete soon, i can see this being the type of game where MnK become the standard more so than others
I remember playing the first AC and was running into problems where the standard grip was not allowing me to press as many buttons as I needed. One of my solutions was the reverse grip. It didn't work very well.
EYO NOT THE R4 SOUNDEFFECT IN THE OPENING
It's a grip that's still used by some high level players for many different games. It's just not seen in the West at all. It's more common in areas like Japan. Maybe not "popular" but it's far from obsolete
1. What a good and informative video thanks
2. I thought the Grip was mostly popular because of AC5 being you know.... AC5 and JP fanbase really like AC5 unlike the West until well, it didnt age well
3. IS THAT WHITE GLINT IN PSO2???
You got a good eye 🫡
JP loves 5th Gen so much, they kept the franchise alive in Japan & basically cornered From to include 5th Gen mechanics (Scan Mode, Main Hangar weapons) into ACVI.
Why does Japan love it so much if I can ask?
@@hanayuna4 decent online content, emphasis on team play, Armored Core.
What more could they ask? Other than integrating previous mechanics.
@@hanayuna4 in the 5th gen multiplayer has 1 player as a operator and the rest as the merc/raven squad
to spell out how bad early controls were. d pad was forward backward and turn, strafe was L1/R1, and up/down was the shoulder buttons. the face buttons were for boosting, shootings, etc.
so circle strafing right, the most basic skill for effective fighting, was left, r1, and managing your boosters with X all at the same time.
Just like kings field
Honestly not that bad. The real innovation that sticks gave us was analogue inputs, so you didn't always turn at full speed.
I have an addon for my controller that has programmable buttons on the back. Its so good for racing games to drive manual.
Reverse controller is very situational, very very few ever used this. The Claw Grip on the other hand was all but required to play the first one in PVP with any sort of effectiveness.
thank you for your research, i've never played a single AC game, but really enjoyed the video, keep it up!
Thanks for this video, I love weird stories like this. I had never heard of this before today.
The extra buttons are really the best way to go. On my old Razer controller I used to bind one to "B" when playing _Dark Souls,_ so that I could run or roll and turn my camera simultaneously without claw-gripping. The reverse grip just sounds silly.
I just play claw grip. I'm 3 dark souls games and an Elden Ring in by now, claw is all I know any more.
Thanks again for watching! I wanted to try something new and add some recorded video parts with myself in the videos to add more personability into the videos. I may try to expand on it more in the future, but I def know why I'm a writing journalist and not video personality careerwise after this first try lol
Yeah dude, that worked out great. Definitely keep doing this. Video was well edited and I liked that this wasn't just a "OMG YOU HAVE TO SEE HOW PEOPLE HOLD THE CONTROLLER FOR THIS GAME??????!!??" and instead you educated people. well done. One suggestion on the parts where you filmed yourself, do a couple more takes. Make sure the words come out like the rest of the video and you're confident like you are in the rest. Keep the tone the same. I know full well how hard that is, but a few more takes and you'll nail it. Good job and keep doing this man!
@@amerikaOnFire thanks so much! I’m definitely gonna take that advice to heart
This was actually solid, especially after looking at your most recent video prior to this. The only thing lacking is high quality equipment (i.e. I can hear the room) and you're just a little too laid back with your speaking. Honestly, a really good mic could actually rectify both and turn your soft, smooth speech into an identifying part of the channel.
I'm only saying all of this because this video is promising. I've seen successful channels with worse writing and production quality.
@@Gehrich_ Thank you! Yeah I’ve tried to step up audio by buying a shure sm57 and an audio interface but I’m clueless there with editing, setup, and whether it was worth it lol 😅 I just have no direction but I’m hoping to step it up in the future somehow
@@UselessRecords Your editing in this vid is spot on. Your mic should be fine, so I'm guessing you just need some dampening panels in the immediate area to reduce the sound of your voice bouncing off of the walls. That won't be worth the investment until the channel can pay for its own upgrades.
For context, I've seen more than a few channels with 5k-20k subs that obviously use dollar store headsets. You've honestly gone above and beyond for where you're sitting, atm.
Good luck finding content to create.
As someone who used the claw grip, I'm not sure if that should be a source of pride or a source of shame.
a source of arthritis
The ac grip I've always known was the claw. That was, what, 97/98. Once we got the sticks I stopped.
Claw grip is still insanely useful for many games
@@Lazypackmule It's also really easy with the Wii U pro controller's layout. My favorite controller in many ways.
@@Lazypackmule i hold claw grip 100% of the time i'm using a controller, i find use for it in literally every pad game i play (pressing 2 face buttons simultaneously, camera movement+jumping etc). I don't think it's awful for your hands unless you're already death gripping the controller, very comfortable personally!
that don quijote hat goes hard
Ive been saying this for a while. A controller needs to be designed that has the joysticks on the front, but all of the other buttons on the backside so that we are able to use all of our fingers at once.
the fact that paddles aren't standard on controllers nowadays AT MINIMUM is a travesty
As far as I remember
The myth started in 2chan (now 5 chan Japanese version of 4chan) talking about his friend or himself using controller wired. Then he said he use this grip to play ACV thus the born of AC grip. And I believe someone use AC grip to play fighting games.
I definitely believe some people did use it everyone has some different habits on controll like reverse camera.
But it do become so kind of meme about the complicated control of AC series
Even some manga has character use this grip to play on he or she is a ture otaku.
Absolutely not some recent Magna AC haven't got a new game nearly a decade.
I am so happy it get a new game.
I definitely recall the appearance of the reverse grip being back in ACV. The reason, if memory serves me right, is because in ACV the game mechanics required the player to now constantly shift between scanning with the camera controls in order to also recover EN and shifting to combat mode while using the face buttons to control all your armaments. Couple this with separated controls for Boost, Jumping, Recon and other stuff, it makes for a painful experience with a truncated claw grip for intense and long gameplay sessions. It requires rebinding stuff to do effectively which all AC games have free binding customizations, but it is not a "standard" to play AC. Rather, it was just a surprising thing somebody on the internet did which worked out for them, but it looked weird so other people saw it as interesting. It was also usable for ACV because ACV was mostly lateral-style gameplay as opposed to vertical.
Also, some of the purpose of this control scheme has been alleviated with the appearance of controller back buttons so I'd say just use whatever works for you. You no longer have to claw your finger to press face buttons, and instead just close them naturally to press the back buttons, which obviously this "reverse grip" was aiming for in the first place. At the end of the day, Armored Core's standard control scheme isn't any different from most 3rd-person shooters nowadays. With the inclusion of Gyro in controllers, it's now probably even more easier to play with a standard grip. Interestingly enough though, some people have actually mentioned preferring to use the PS1-era style of configuration even on the more modern AC games, with the movement on the D-pad, and the misc commands on the L-stick, with the Look Up and Look Down commands bound to the trigger buttons. To each his own, I guess.
I always played claw just naturally. My hands were really small, so it was the most comfortable way to hit face buttons. Crazy to think that it gave me an edge all these years.
when I started armored core i swapped the turn around buttons with the the strafe buttons and it made the game sooooooooooo easy to control
Dude, when you brought up claw grip it triggered an IRL flashback. I went hard on silent line way back in the day, and once you get a couple hundred hours in, the claw grip just comes on naturally. It elevates the fluidity of control massively.
I've been playing AC since the original first came out i got used to the controls so much most of the mecha games i play I use the same setup so it never bothered me and I never heard of flipping the controller until I saw this video
There's a fella by the name of Upside Down Gaming who was raised playing on an N64 controller backwards because his hands were too small, now he's wiping whole squads on CoD Warzone all from muscle memory. He should give AC a shot
Fucking thank you!! I’ve been telling people that this isn’t necessary and that it’s a joke. And you brought up hood examples as to people playing games in other outrages ways. It’s possible but it’s absolutely not necessary. This topic was really hard to prove myself right with.
On that note of games played on odd controllers. Back in Armored Core 4 days one of my online buddies played a few matches on a Guitar Hero guitar.
Reeeeal classy playing RR4 intro at the end of the video. My few fav racer games at the ps1 era. Wish that made a reboot.. 🥺
Anyways, good vid. Me an my bro would throw down who's mech was the better cheater back in the day lol
4:58 I watched a dude play Overwatch with a bunch of bananas laying on a table in front of him
th-cam.com/video/b5grBaclEO8/w-d-xo.html
well, now AC 6 is coming to PC, it's going to have native mouse and keyboard support unlike every other entry in the series, i hope its done right bc ive always wanted to play AC with a mouse and keyboard
First time hearing about the AC grip and it's actually so insane I might just try this. Been playing AC since I was a kid so this is really new to me and I'm always up for something new lmao hoping to see more content with the AC grip and AC6
Nice vid man, hope to see more AC content!
With the launch of AC6, I also wanted to give a shoutout to many Armored Core content creators, because they deserve a lot of love for their efforts after all the years and specially since this franchise will get more popular (of course this includes Iron Pinneapple, Oroboro, Zentreya, Fightincowboy, Rurikhan, and many others):
- The Lore Hunter
- 0seraphic
- BlueberryPoot
- Silver Glint
- AesirAesthetics
- Armoredcorelore
- Love_Arc
- BlueberrPoot
- Anatolia's Mercenary
- MrHappy1227 (though he is more focused on Final Fantasy)
- Rubicon Dogs
- Zealous (Znote)
- Cleric
- FromCheng
- Writing on Games
- Above Average Gaming}
- Alanah Pearce
The first games were only hard to control because the analog sticks didn't exist yet. Once the Dualshock controller came out and games supported it controls for all games got much easier usually assigning them to movement and view/aiming controls.
That was a really superb video. Clever edits, timely asides, and direction that keeps everything cohesive and moving forward; just excellent work all the way around.
man I hope this runs on the deck I'm going to play it that way
Im sure your 95% right but lets not forget Smarter Everydays video on the Backwards Bike. Had we learned to play backwards from the very 1st time we ever played games with controllers, than out brain wound send any competing signal, it would be natural and playing our way now would be the hard part. Relearning something as complex as controller input but complete mirrored is litterally Naruto Jonin levels of Kinesthetic Talent. I recommend the Smarter Everyday video is yall haven't seen it
I always thought the traditional armored core controls made a lot of sense. You could move and look while doing some kind of action all without analog sticks (keep in mind the first game came out before the dualshock with analogs became the norm)
claw grip with the left hand was really popular on ps2 socom games because zooming in with a sniper was up on the dpad, and claw with right hand is benefitial for a lot of games, mostly tony hawk games come to mind atm. Will agree it can be annoying even after learning it and being comfortable with it.
My friend let me borrow Armored Core 4 back in high school. I literally wasted a whole summer and much of my first semester back in school just playing it. It was the first time I played something like it after being thoroughly hooked on Gundam from Toonami as a kid. Good times. I’ve never heard of the armored core grip till now cool vid.
I dig the use of the famous Gundam: Reconguista in G meme. Also, Armored Core VI is set to basically carve out a new niche, as a LOT of people are surprisingly hyped for the title.
The issue of needing to use the face buttons and the stick as well as the triggers is a real problem in games. A simple example that comes to mind is in COD to go prone while still aiming is an issue. You gotta take your finger of the stick to hit the face button, but in a lot of cases you want to aim at a target as you're going prone. On pc you just hit shift with your left hand and can aim and go prone no problem. I find myself making a C with my thumb and index finger and using my index finger to hit the face button while having my thumber under the stick instead of on top of to be able to do both in a lot of games. Like in Elden Ring it's important to use the camera stick in a lot of situations when lock on will completely leave you not knowing what's going on, but then you also must people able to heal or dodge roll.
I love finding smaller content creators that you can clearly see becoming WAY bigger in the future
I'm ngl this comment got me in my feelings hard
Thank you so much
*Points to channel owner* this BA MF knowns what's up. You are truly one of us my dude. *fist bump*
wait til you see Goldeneye 64 Alien Finger grip ahahaha
also love claw personally, my fingers always stay there and i don't get discomfort (depends on the persons hands really) even with intense sessions, it's so useful for so many games
2:06 the mech on the bottom left is actually a CAST from PSO2:NGS..? 🤔
Over the years, I've met at least 3 people at cons and gaming events that were proficiently using this grip style. Some key details with all those guys are that they were all playing the ps1 titles and they all admitted it took them months to even get decent. I wouldn't say they were significantly better than people using a normal grip style but they were at least as good.
OG AC to current. This has had me rollin since the trailer game dropped.
*_GRIPMORED CORE_*
Dangi: You know anything starting with "apparently" it's definitely a lie for clout
Dangi immediately afterwards: "Apparently..."
I had a friend back in my early teens that was probably about 6 or 7 years older than me, and he used the armored core grip for literally every game we played together. He was pretty good but I remember asking him why he did it and the reasons he gave just seemed to boil down to "because I want to be different". He was a weird dude lol.
I've never heard of this, but I just brought my old Armored Core games out of storage yesterday and was thinking that I needed a better way to access the front buttons because I do not have the controls down anymore
I could imagine rhythm game players doing something like this, but on the other hand if they were _that_ committed, they'd buy or rig a dedicated custom controller.
I played a bunch of them when they were new and never saw this meme until recently. My rebinding of choice for AC2 (pre dualshock) was to put movement on dpad, camera on face buttons, and shoot/swap weapons/boost on shoulder buttons. Very similar to what AC4 offered as one of its options later on.
I clicked this video for what I think is a different reason to most: I actually, unironically think the modern controller would be better if it were more like the "AC grip". It's unfathomably stupid that our poor thumbs have to work themselves to death handling 90% of the inputs on a controller, while the rest of the hand goes almost unused. I posit that the face buttons & D-pad should sit on the back of the controller, and the thumbs should only handle the analogue sticks and Start, Select, etc. There are some interesting problems to solve before such a design can work, but I genuinely believe it would feel better for almost everyone. I have some other DIY controller projects in the pipeline, but I'm starting to think I should try and design this concept myself.
It's a pretty good analog to natural evolution. The current standard didn't come from nowhere, it was built on its predecessors. I would think of most of modern dual-sticks stemming from the PS1 analog stick controller, which then goes back to Snes controllers.
Basically, the design relying on thumbs was baked into the design standard when there wasn't too many inputs buttons for our thumbs to handle with high fidelity (with the exception of few games like fighting games).
"The design is very human" memes aside, while the dualshock controller design meant a human hand couldn't efficiently use all of the input options, it's also the case that few games really demanded a degree of input that wasn't manageable so even while the current design was becoming flawed it would still perform well enough across the board that any really fundamental changes to address the issue would be less desirable as it competes against familiarity and muscle memory for a pretty niche advantage.
The earliest I can think of the overreliance on thumbs having mainstream drawbacks is in the FPS craze of the PS3 and 360 days where it was common to rebind controls because a standard grip meant you couldn't look with right stick and press face buttons to crouch or prone at the same time.
We are now seeing buttons added to the backs of controllers but something to consider is that that space and those fingers are not "free". On some of those controllers many people have had to disable some back buttons because a comfortable grip on the controller means accidental presses happen and we see which layouts don't stay around as a result.
The last thing I would mention if you are going to try design a controller with reverse face inputs is to keep in mind that your thumb and index are your only very independent digits. Your other fingers are mechanically coupled so even if they arent gripping theyre still limmited in complex input sequences or combinationcan. You can train 3,4&5 to be more independent but you want to avoid controller designs that allow higher fidelity control inputs that come at the cost of hand strains or deterioration (see this videos take on Claw Gripping)
RR type 4 music is an instant sub good work amigo
I've long been considering a more "ergonomic" controller design, where there's more action in the shoulder area since relying so much on your thumbs require letting go of the sticks. I just feel the shoulder area is so under-utilized in the standard dualshock format--nevermind how terrible the grips feel when you have big hands. Getting back into FF14 made the problems more apparent.
Props on the troll with the random Phantasy Star Online 2 New Genesis screenshot @2:06.
I'm surprised multiple people caught that lol
It felt so fitting with the dog at the end to top it off
I’ve been playing the series since the original eat the ever living tar out of each game multiple times and I never heard of this controller “technique” until two weeks ago lmao
Same...
The old lady saying "it's been 84 years" got me good!
The only "odd" grip I used in 4 and 4A was a crab grip with fingers on bumpers and thumb for movement and buttons.
Being able to quickly tap into the shoulder mounted weapons while moving at such a fast pace was a big advantage.
I started with AC2 back in the day, and unironically you get used to the D-pad movement controls once you stop fighting with them. My only real qualm with classic AC games is the lack of easy Z-axis movement; don’t need no claw grip to get by.
i love armored core, played it religiously from 1999-2010 and never knew this was a thing
Why do people always say the claw grip is terrible for your hands? Lol
Been using it for years and the hands never get tired. Right middle finger for the shoulders, side of the right index finger for the face buttons, and thumb for the joystick. Not too far off the ergonomics of a regular gamepad and then I can jump, aim, and shoot all at the same time.
I am just really interested in the new one. Didn't know about the series till I took a deeper dive. I really appreciate your lil history lesson . And editing, ez sub
0:42 - 1:03
Damn Demon’s Souls so forgotten as the origin of that series it didn’t even get into the memes.
Bruh, I’ve been playing AC since PSX. Would do LANs for local tourneys, exchanged mech build experiments and yes, dudes did do the AC grip. And failed tremendously.
The only way I could pull some moves was dropping controller to the knee for a quick input.
It’s so dope they dropping another AC. Get your playlists ready!!
I grew up playing claw grip not knowing it was a thing It just always felt most comfortable to grip it that way
AC4A pvp is one hell of a drug. Very doubtful AC6 will be better, but still hopeful for a great single player campaing.
The "hit it from the back" style of play looks crazy. But, I agree, there are so many viable options to play that you can benefit from without having to flip your whole controller around. Great video - subbed.
I’m all for calling it the “Hit it from the back style” from now on after this
Great video, man. I always loved the AC games even though my little kid brain couldn't understand half of it most of the time
I finally figured out what the lyrics were in the outro. "RIDGE RACER" damn, now I can bop the jam. Good pick, fam.
*whistle sprinting in Tears of the Kingdom*
"no"
Love the video! Great history. But that goofy hand-hold was an absolute fact for original core games. I grew up watching my older brother and his nerd friends playing this way and never understood why. Back when like geocities was a thing and word spread "fast"
I have seen the backwards controller used in Kagerou Days manga. It's a very obscure detail that most people won't even notice, but it put a smile on my face.
Good stuff!
I'm 42 and I played AC back in the day, and I definitely used the claw grip lol. Might be why I got carpal tunnel now
I just love the R4 theme music at the end 😅
Even if I wasn't an armored core veteran, I feel like this is the kind of thing you could figure out if you just sat down and thought about it. There's a reason that the Nexus control scheme survived mostly intact.
The real 5head is dedicating your index to the shoulder button and middle fingers to the triggers. I don't understand how that didn't become normal by 2010.
back in the day at gamestop my friend scored a touchdown on me in madden with a guitar hero controller at one of the xbox 360 store displays while i was using a regular controller .
Monster Hunter 3DS he says.
Son, let me tell you how things were on PSP
I still have the nightmares... And the arthritis
Gotta love metallic and alloy paints. They're perfect for doing work on inner frames which frankly is the best part to work in if you want to flex
If I could have added some pedals to replace buttons in the old PS1 AC days, I woulda. The hop strife became THE tactic because it allowed you to have the time to adjust vision, shoot, and move rapidly.
Never new about this, funny shit, great vid. Yeah, I've used the claw myself, but it's definitely a one off type of deal for some games, I usually end up re mapping, or you just end up getting used to the scheme. Can't wait for the new AC, not sure it was last Raven or V, but it was one of the Xbox 360 ones for sure, I never finished it, got stuck on the last mission, got frustrated, said "Fuck it!" And let it go. Thank God for ADHD meds, it's even helping me out with my gaming! 😂