If you Liked the video tell me your favourite cheese in any fighting game. Also support me on patreon so I can do this without the anxiety of the big $ looming overhead (link in description)
I went to my first tournament last night. I had a great time but it also taught me an interesting lesson. There was this Marth player, and during friendlies I was doing really good against him. He kept going to ledge to try and get me to get off stage. But I refused to play along and it worked well. In tournament the Fox I couldn’t get a single game off of, got 3-0’d by that Marth. And it made me realize that certain peoples playstyles sometimes just work better against others. I mean that’s pretty obvious but I think it’s easy to forget in tournament.
I would say another element of Cheese you can define is like, an option that is a knowledge check. I feel like when Fiction was complaining about Axe cheesing that was the main idea, that Pikachu has a lot of simple knowledge checks and execution tests that can make him very lethal that also aren't "true", making it feel fraudulent to lose to it. :3
I can honestly say, characters like jigglypuff helped me to get into watching melee, precisely for the reason you outlined, they're easy to follow. When I first started watching melee, I didn't really like watching match-ups with two fast characters, like fox & falco, because as an uneducated viewer it's almost imposssible to parse what is actually happening on a moment to moment basis.
Smashers call anything that beats them cheese these days, it’s such a watered down term in the context people use. Not to be a boomer but we used to have this little saying called “no johns”.
Everyone is afraid to admit it but the cheesiest move in melee is Falco dair or possibly fox shine but Falco dair is busted. BUT Falco is a cool character otherwise so everyone ignores it. No I'm not a Falco hater, I love Falco.
Cheese is anything that isn’t “true”: So falco dair on ledge when opponent has other options, like going high, is cheese. But falco late dair on shield to shine pressure is “true” because the opponent can’t do anything against it, roll would get shined, grab would get shined, etc. Every top tier has good cheese, that’s what makes melee fun.
I’d like to mention probably my favorite cheese option, one that did indeed become my defining move on the character, but sort of a different kind of cheese to the usual: Brawl Sonic’s dash attack. Specifically not Ultimate’s, they changed it and the new one doesn’t really have the cheese potential anymore. So what was that cheese potential? Well, in Brawl, Sonic’s dash attack was a short spin dash through the opponent. When he already had two specials dedicated to spin dashing. This one was cool, though: it still went through the opponent and caused a good amount of hitstun, but it was quick and short, easily allowing you to turn back around and do it again. Basically, it was cheese as the perfect chipping tool, allowing Sonic to stay in the opponent’s face safely while racking up percent damage. A very useful and important tool, a key part of my play style, but not a kill move, and unlike wobbling, the opponent wasn’t fully stuck; I’d still call it cheese because it’s generally low skill high reward, but it wasn’t a win button. As I mentioned, they seem to have changed the dash attack in Ultimate: now it’s a kick that ends the dash, pretty much removing the chain cheese potential. On one hand, I’m still kinda salty about it: of course I am, that move was the centerpiece of my entire playstyle. On the other, maybe I’m being too hard on Ultimate Sonic: he may have a tougher time racking up percent damage without the old DA, but the rest of his kit is still there, including my favored kill moves of F- and Up Smash and down air. I could probably still make him work…although Terry’s looking pretty fun if I do jump ship.
As a main puff who is always trying to up-throw + rest or stay under a grab and rest, i can easily say that if you are fighting against a good opponent they will notice you going for those options and will use that to kill you.
That fuckin kirby swallowing the ganon and then taunting, then the ganon player gets up and leaves and the kirby player recoils in their seat WHAT DID U EXPECT BRO U WERE DISRESPECTING HIM
I love cheese. It keeps the game fresh and exciting. Otherwise you just have perfect flow chart play, at which point, let's just have TAS-only tournaments.
What we saw in the clip is a variation of Steve's down throw into fair into spamming jab to carry the opponent to the other side of the stage to then edgeguard them. It's very easy to land this against fastfallers from what I understand. Basically, it's Melee Sheik backthrow at ledge with extra steps in exchange for being less position dependant.
Cheese is good in Melee because it has so much going for it to make up for it. Not so much with the newer Smash games, especially Smash 4. On the other hand, Bayo was good in Smash 4 to get top 8s over and done quick more quickly especially when they were before Melee.
viewer feedback you define cheese in the beginning of the video but it didnt stick on my brain. i watch the video and you make points i understand about cheese but i still don't understand what you Realy mean by "Cheese"
"I'm going to explain why cheese is good for the game" - I'm pretty sure Bayonetta's cheese killed Smash 4. Low skill and high rewards should be minimal if a game is to have any longevity. High skill, high rewards is much more entertaining and fun, hence people gravitate towards watching characters like Fox and Falco in Melee, whereas typically change the channel when it comes to wobbling or puff in general.
A large part of the bayo problem was how popular she was making her boring instead of n X factor but for casual viewers (I never watched comp smash 4 a lot) the combos could be pretty fun to watch even if they're technically easy Seeing these super extended flying combos with multi hits and platforms and movement all around the place just looked cool
@@Hack--rz1io I would argue that the "coolness" factor is typically short lived unless it has another factor to it like difficulty in technical execution. It's cool when you first see it for sure, but once you become acquainted to it, it becomes dull. I competed and spectated in Smash 4, and let me tell you, the largest part of the bayo problem stemmed from the fact that people flocked to Bayo because of how technically easy it was to do her techniques while also getting results, moreso than the idea that the character was "cool".
Funniest part is that I’ve cheesed people in board games that take 1.5 hours to play (digitally), just by making people super tilted. Great video, it’s really interesting to think about since so much of melee/smash revolves around a core game that has potential for some real goofy stuff
Wobbling isnt Cheese, it's simply cheating and was absolutely horrible for the viewers, players, and organizers before it was rightly banned. Comparing Icies' Wobble to Fox's Shine, or Puff's Rest, or Marth's grab is highly uninformed.
Wobbling is just a zero-to-death off of a grab. It's almost like that's already common in this series. If anything, being able to keep up a wobble from 20 to 120 is far more impressive than any waveshine.
Aziz Al-Yami / hax$ made a great video defining cheese, making distinctions on what is okay and why in his video: why competetive smash needs a ledge grab limit - big recommendation for this topic :)
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If you Liked the video tell me your favourite cheese in any fighting game. Also support me on patreon so I can do this without the anxiety of the big $ looming overhead (link in description)
Brawl should not be dead on these standards
e honda special champion edition hundred hand slap
Hitting the tail of Ness' PK Thunder on spacie side B and watching them fall to their death still processing what just happened
Throwing out random math F smashes? Low skill plebian. Random marth pivot F smash? Untouchable god of melee
The number of slippi players who start spamming f smash when I'm spamming run back pivot f smash is hilarious.
I went to my first tournament last night. I had a great time but it also taught me an interesting lesson.
There was this Marth player, and during friendlies I was doing really good against him. He kept going to ledge to try and get me to get off stage. But I refused to play along and it worked well.
In tournament the Fox I couldn’t get a single game off of, got 3-0’d by that Marth. And it made me realize that certain peoples playstyles sometimes just work better against others.
I mean that’s pretty obvious but I think it’s easy to forget in tournament.
Any fellow gouda enjoyers here?
YES
☕
Gouda with cumin is godtier
The better question is who isn’t?
I love cheeses
Nothing better than a smoked gouda
I would say another element of Cheese you can define is like, an option that is a knowledge check. I feel like when Fiction was complaining about Axe cheesing that was the main idea, that Pikachu has a lot of simple knowledge checks and execution tests that can make him very lethal that also aren't "true", making it feel fraudulent to lose to it. :3
Axe is sick 🔥 good point too
Cheese is the spirit of the game, a chaotic game with unpredictable circumstances
I can honestly say, characters like jigglypuff helped me to get into watching melee, precisely for the reason you outlined, they're easy to follow. When I first started watching melee, I didn't really like watching match-ups with two fast characters, like fox & falco, because as an uneducated viewer it's almost imposssible to parse what is actually happening on a moment to moment basis.
I’m so glad your channel exists ❤
Cheese:
Its good, but there are holes in it.
🤯
Smashers call anything that beats them cheese these days, it’s such a watered down term in the context people use. Not to be a boomer but we used to have this little saying called “no johns”.
Everyone is afraid to admit it but the cheesiest move in melee is Falco dair or possibly fox shine but Falco dair is busted. BUT Falco is a cool character otherwise so everyone ignores it. No I'm not a Falco hater, I love Falco.
falco dair can be super cheesy but its what makes the character cool. his combos wouldnt be nearly as fun without the ability to pillar.
Marth sucks
puff rest
@@Meechellpuff rest has a reasonable risk relative to its power, Falco's dair spike lasts INCREDIBLY long, so I don't think it's too comparable
Cheese is anything that isn’t “true”:
So falco dair on ledge when opponent has other options, like going high, is cheese. But falco late dair on shield to shine pressure is “true” because the opponent can’t do anything against it, roll would get shined, grab would get shined, etc.
Every top tier has good cheese, that’s what makes melee fun.
2:03 fuck sake chaler how could you do this to me
I’d like to mention probably my favorite cheese option, one that did indeed become my defining move on the character, but sort of a different kind of cheese to the usual: Brawl Sonic’s dash attack. Specifically not Ultimate’s, they changed it and the new one doesn’t really have the cheese potential anymore.
So what was that cheese potential? Well, in Brawl, Sonic’s dash attack was a short spin dash through the opponent. When he already had two specials dedicated to spin dashing. This one was cool, though: it still went through the opponent and caused a good amount of hitstun, but it was quick and short, easily allowing you to turn back around and do it again. Basically, it was cheese as the perfect chipping tool, allowing Sonic to stay in the opponent’s face safely while racking up percent damage. A very useful and important tool, a key part of my play style, but not a kill move, and unlike wobbling, the opponent wasn’t fully stuck; I’d still call it cheese because it’s generally low skill high reward, but it wasn’t a win button.
As I mentioned, they seem to have changed the dash attack in Ultimate: now it’s a kick that ends the dash, pretty much removing the chain cheese potential. On one hand, I’m still kinda salty about it: of course I am, that move was the centerpiece of my entire playstyle. On the other, maybe I’m being too hard on Ultimate Sonic: he may have a tougher time racking up percent damage without the old DA, but the rest of his kit is still there, including my favored kill moves of F- and Up Smash and down air. I could probably still make him work…although Terry’s looking pretty fun if I do jump ship.
As a main puff who is always trying to up-throw + rest or stay under a grab and rest, i can easily say that if you are fighting against a good opponent they will notice you going for those options and will use that to kill you.
Another chaler dub also thanks for the project m footage even if it was like 5 seconds. Wooo p+ let's go baby
Thank you for this information
That fuckin kirby swallowing the ganon and then taunting, then the ganon player gets up and leaves and the kirby player recoils in their seat WHAT DID U EXPECT BRO U WERE DISRESPECTING HIM
When the video starts with the fucking yugioh capsule monsters music you know its gonna be good!
#FreeIceClimbers
Never would of thought that I would be in a Chaler Video :O
Keep up the good work, Chaler! Your videos are top tier! 👌
Top tier content creator
“what is cheese…” *bizzare #2 sound effect from iMovie*
I love cheese. It keeps the game fresh and exciting. Otherwise you just have perfect flow chart play, at which point, let's just have TAS-only tournaments.
Nice vid mate
I cant believe you know about fountain hooking in dota 2, it was funny every time tbh
GREAT VID!!! don't know what to say just helping the algorithim lol, I have been loving all of your vids.
what is the cheese with Steve he was showing at 1:52? Or is it just the entire character
What we saw in the clip is a variation of Steve's down throw into fair into spamming jab to carry the opponent to the other side of the stage to then edgeguard them. It's very easy to land this against fastfallers from what I understand.
Basically, it's Melee Sheik backthrow at ledge with extra steps in exchange for being less position dependant.
Mentioning fighting game cheese without acknowledging Tekken is a crime.
i got an ad for cheese before this video😭😭
checks out, casuals LOVE Ultimate and it's just Cheese Simulator 2018
DRIFTVEIL CITY MENTIONED LETS GOOO
Cheese is good in Melee because it has so much going for it to make up for it. Not so much with the newer Smash games, especially Smash 4. On the other hand, Bayo was good in Smash 4 to get top 8s over and done quick more quickly especially when they were before Melee.
cheese is money, you're going straight for the cheese when you cheese
another fire Chaler vid!
"cheese is good" nuh uh
Just had a 6 cheese pizza, vid is perfect for the situation.
New Chaler New insta like
I don't know if smash 4 bayo counts as cheese since most of her nonsense is actually true. It definitely counts as bs though.
I've always liked cheese, nice job putting into words why it's cool.
Another word for “cheese” is “bread and butter” in smash bros. Up throw rest is hype tbh
You could even say cheese is Gouda
Cheese Gromit
Unban wobbling
cheddarrrrr
For me, its manchego
Okay but too much of any food is gross and watching players not interact because of wobbling was extremely poisonous for the game's health.
viewer feedback
you define cheese in the beginning of the video but it didnt stick on my brain. i watch the video and you make points i understand about cheese but i still don't understand what you Realy mean by "Cheese"
Cheez
FREE THE WOBBLE
The value of Cheese Strat's what?
Bro what is alfa doing here wtfff!?!?!?
I don't see Bayo and Steve as cheese as to me cheese is like low level trick that always screws beginners.
"I'm going to explain why cheese is good for the game" - I'm pretty sure Bayonetta's cheese killed Smash 4. Low skill and high rewards should be minimal if a game is to have any longevity. High skill, high rewards is much more entertaining and fun, hence people gravitate towards watching characters like Fox and Falco in Melee, whereas typically change the channel when it comes to wobbling or puff in general.
A large part of the bayo problem was how popular she was making her boring instead of n X factor but for casual viewers (I never watched comp smash 4 a lot) the combos could be pretty fun to watch even if they're technically easy
Seeing these super extended flying combos with multi hits and platforms and movement all around the place just looked cool
@@Hack--rz1io I would argue that the "coolness" factor is typically short lived unless it has another factor to it like difficulty in technical execution. It's cool when you first see it for sure, but once you become acquainted to it, it becomes dull. I competed and spectated in Smash 4, and let me tell you, the largest part of the bayo problem stemmed from the fact that people flocked to Bayo because of how technically easy it was to do her techniques while also getting results, moreso than the idea that the character was "cool".
cbass 😍
also; mystical ninja music?
Where my havarti homies at??
Brie gang
activate windows !!!!
Funniest part is that I’ve cheesed people in board games that take 1.5 hours to play (digitally), just by making people super tilted.
Great video, it’s really interesting to think about since so much of melee/smash revolves around a core game that has potential for some real goofy stuff
Wobbling isnt Cheese, it's simply cheating and was absolutely horrible for the viewers, players, and organizers before it was rightly banned. Comparing Icies' Wobble to Fox's Shine, or Puff's Rest, or Marth's grab is highly uninformed.
smartest wobble hater cant even spell "uninformed"
@@lxxwj Lmk when simple spelling mistakes invalidate proven arguments because that deffy isn't the reality we live in now.
Wobbling is just a zero-to-death off of a grab. It's almost like that's already common in this series.
If anything, being able to keep up a wobble from 20 to 120 is far more impressive than any waveshine.
Aziz Al-Yami / hax$ made a great video defining cheese, making distinctions on what is okay and why in his video: why competetive smash needs a ledge grab limit - big recommendation for this topic :)